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Apple Ordered To Pay Up To $14.5 Billion in EU Tax Crackdown, Cook Refutes EU's Conclusion (bloomberg.com)
Apple has been ordered to pay a record sum of 13 billion euros ($14.5 billion) plus interest after the European Commission said Ireland illegally slashed the iPhone maker's tax bill, in a crackdown on fiscal loopholes that also risks inflaming tensions with the United States Treasury. According to the European Union regulator, Apple benefited from selective tax treatment that gave it an unfair advantage over other businesses. In the meanwhile, Apple has refuted such accusations, saying that EU's conclusion has "no basis in fact or law." EU Competition Commissioner Margrethe Vestager said, "If my effective tax rate would be 0.05 percent falling to 0.005 percent -- I would have felt that maybe I should have a second look at my tax bill." Apple CEO Tim Cook said, "Over the years, we received guidance from Irish tax authorities on how to comply correctly with Irish tax law -- the same kind of guidance available to any company doing business there. In Ireland and in every country where we operate, Apple follows the law and we pay all the taxes we owe."
Long overdue
Okay so the judgement is made. What can the EU do to enforce their decision? Can Apple appeal? I'm sure the bribes to guarantee a favorable ruling is less than 14 billion so when can we expect them to come out on top?
They can crack the whip now and say that, going forward, the tax laws have changed and Apple should pay more.
However, you can't claim you're owed past money when Apple wasn't hiding anything. They knew what Apple was doing and let it go. This is nothing but theft.
I'm all for fixing the tax laws going forward, but I'm not for killing companies that played by the rules that were in place. Apple can survive this hit, but many companies cannot.
Did Cook actually 'refute' the conclusion, or did he just disagree with it? Those are very, very, different things.
Let's see.. $14.5B in tax savings... 6500 employees in Ireland...
If they'd paid the Irish employees an average of $2.2M each, it would still not be as much as this tax bill.
The point is, $14.5B went into Apple's pocket, and Ireland gets what out of it? 6500 measly jobs?
The last time I was in Walmart I told them, "You can have the money for this USB flash drive or you can have the tax for it, but NOT BOTH". It didn't go so well.
Laws are rules for the court, but merely a bottom bar to hit for life. Think beyond laws in your actions always.
And the EU just said that the Irish law was not right. And don't hide behind the people who did the dirty worrk.
Just because your lawer says you are not guilty does not mean you are innocent.
So apperently he hired the wrong people, because they gave him bad advice, or (more likely) they gave him good advice and he decided not to listen to the part that it might not work.
Don't fight for your country, if your country does not fight for you.
It's one of the more evil multinational megacorps getting hit with fees, which if done elsewhere could bankrupt it. This is great, especially love Tim Cook's crocodile tears.
This is government corruption of the highest order and for all of you high-fiving what a wonderful day this is against corporate overreach realize the EU will NOT spend this money on the people or social services but use it to further ingratiate their power base.
It absolutely is, but it is one clinicly retarded evil globalist entity taking resources from a competent evil globalist entity. It's an overall win because the EU will piss it away on social causes, in fact if other EU states follow the same routine it could bankrupt Apple and then a whole host of issues like Apple's slave labor of highschool students in China will go away. Hopefully every multinational corporation gets hit by this stuff, giving the EU funds to piss away for a half decade or decade is a very minor evil to tolerate for the destruction of sustainable evil entities.
The worst part of this is all that tax money is going to go to Ireland which accounts for next to none of Apple's sales. The only winners in this are the Irish people (over $3000 per Irish citizen), everyone else loses.
Try considering whether it's a functional business stance to decide to have no employees by which to generate Apple's massive profits.
While some CEO's may consider employees to be an unnecessary burden, that's the only way Cook's position can be morally valid (per Kant's Categorical Imperative, for those interested), if I can be applied fully and independently regardless of the -particular- social context affected.
No, "you can have taxes or have jobs not both" is not a rational position. It is not possible for Apple to not "offer" (that is, retain to have a business at all) jobs. It is only possible for them to play one country against another for where those jobs will be. Governments need to collaboratively stop this or they and their citizens will be the ones paying from an Apple wishes to only take, everywhere, all the time, and ideally give absolutely nothing back, anywhere, at any time.
But we sort of knew that already from the wholesale appropriation of BSD, er, "OS/X". Taking millions in value, giving the absolutely minimum pittance back that they can get away with.
Have gnu, will travel.
"Over the years, we received guidance from Irish tax authorities on how to comply correctly with Irish tax law" The Irish financial regulator once supported people from AIB bank to do a fund raising scheme that was ultimately determined to be completely illegal. Mightn't want to always trust the Irish government.
The american government fines european companies billions (BP, Volkswagen). Now the EU has started fining american companies in return.
It seems fair.
politicians are like babies' nappies: they should both be changed regularly and for the same reasons
Ah the Apple trolls are out in force today.
Funnelling the sales through Ireland was not illegal.
What was illegal was Ireland giving Apple a special tax deal where they only needed to pay tax on profits generated in Ireland, so all the profits from sales in the rest of the EU where tax free. EU has now decided that this is against the state aid rules. Had every firm in Ireland had the same tax deal it would not have been illegal.
So while Mr. Cook is claiming that they complied with Irish law and may well be right, this is utterly irrelevant to whether they broke EU laws.
It amazes me how a company, sitting on as much cash as Apple has tucked away (i.e., appx $200Billion), still needs to be the beneficiary of corporate welfare.
Apple CEO Tim Cook said, "... Apple follows the law and we pay all the taxes we owe."
Yes, and the EU's law just said you owe 14 billion. Pay and quit whining about it - maybe if Apple had pulled its profits back into the US, they wouldn't be having these issues.
That is all.
You got things mixed up. By paying 0.05 percent taxes on their profits, Apple and Ireland have cut out a deal in which they basically refuse to pay their rent.
Apple in Ireland is enjoying Irish infrastructure and services like roads, power, water supply, bridges, security, fire department assistance, etc. And since Ireland is/was one of the poorest countries in the EU, it's more than likely quite a bit of that infrastructure and services was financed with the help of EU money.
And for all of this Apple pays 0.05% of their profits.
It's Apple and Ireland enjoying all the perks of the EU and giving nothing back in return.
What USA says is, "don't care who makes the profit where. Your total tax burden can not be below this threshold. Pay this much tax to any jurisdiction you choose, using whatever law/accounting practice you want. If all the taxes paid to all the foreign governments do not add up to this threshold, you owe the rest to US government".
This is a very logical, clean, simple effort to derail the race to the bottom. But industry spins it as "US government taxes world wide income! Onerous, We don't owe US government for profits made outside USA!" No USA does not really want to tax profits made abroad. USA just wants to make sure you don't play one country against another to reduce your tax burden. We just don't want you to game the system. Pay X% as tax to any government you choose.
sed -e 's/Chuck Norris/Rajnikant/g' joke > fact
Comment removed based on user account deletion
It's not a fine but back taxes.
If there was any corruption, it was within the Irish government for breaking EU laws, with the possible knowledge and collusion of Apple and their tax lawyers and accountants
How is the Irish government breaking their own law? They have the right to determine their taxation levels for companies they're trying to attract. Now, in the WTO, some members might think it unfair how they managed to get Apple to prefer them over other countries, but aside from that, Ireland i.e. the Irish people, or at least the Irish employees of Apple who get to be employed there as a result of Apple being in Ireland, have a lot to gain!
Apple would never have even considered this deal if Ireland had not been a part of the EU. The reason the EU has these rules is that once you are inside the Eurozone, there are restrictions on how much anyone but your home country can tax you and they have a right to be pissed that Apple redirected all of it's EU profits to Ireland and then payed almost no tax.
More Brexiter nonsense and ignorance.
Ireland could only make that attractive deal with Apple because they where in the EU. The deal is that Apple don't have to pay tax on profits generated in the EU outside Ireland in exchange for setting your headquarters up in Ireland. If you are outside the EU you can't offer that tax deal because "tax passporting" aka a firm in the EU only has to pay tax on the profits in the EU in theq country it is head quartered would not be possible.
So while Apple was compliant with the tax laws of Ireland, Ireland by giving a special deal to Apple was breaking EU state aid rules and the EU commission has every right in the world to poke their noses in.
Apple is wrong, the guidance of Dublin is all well and good, but that does not get you out of EU state aid rules, and they should have checked.
They've already come for me as I pay 35% tax. Now it's Apple's turn. So I'll fucking high-five if I want to.
"Wait. Something's happening. It's opening up! My God, it's full of apricots!"
Ireland should pay
If you read the actual story, it will tell you that the EU is insisting Apple pays the unpaid tax to Ireland
politicians are like babies' nappies: they should both be changed regularly and for the same reasons
Thing is he probably believes the shit he wrote as well as voting leave. The level of ignorance and lack of understanding amoung Brexiters is truly staggering.
The Irish government are a member of a club that has rules, and they where breaking the rules of that club. Ireland could just leave the club if they wished, but then the illegal deal they gave Apple would not have been possible. While in the club they need to abide by the rules of the club. That club of course being the EEC/EU.
Then the EU needs to tell Apple how much tax to pay those countries where they made their sales - be it France, Belgium, Italy, et al. If Apple sat w/ Ireland and worked out any deal, they were well within their rights. If in the process, they were screwing other EU member states, then that's b/w EU, Apple and those states, not Ireland!
Apple's home country is Ireland? Funny, I just checked out their web site, and 1 Infinite Loop in Cupertino - just off the 280 - is still their corporate headquarters address
In other words; European nations aren't sovereign.
John McAfee 'It was like that time I hired that Bangkok prostitute; to do my taxes, while I fucked my accountant'
You might want to go back and read stuff ... This is the EC finding that Ireland failed to uphold international tax agreements, based on investigations started in 2014
- EU is not robbing Apple
- This is not related to UK's #BreakShit in any ways what-so-ever
- Margrethe Vestager is not a timelord who recently went back in time to force Joaquín Almunia to start an investigation against Ireland
There is no such thing. This is why people talking about the EU just don't get it. Ground rules were established on tax rates and deficits but all taxing authority was retained as a sovereign exercise and the EC has no authority over it. This is the primary reason people in the economic community have been predicting the death of the EU since it's foundation and they pointed at Greece as a prime example and now they have another in this Ireland issue.
The EC has no authority over Irish tax rates, rules or collection policy. None. Just like they don't have any over Denmark or Lichtenstein who also put in sweetheart tax deals that fucked over everyone in the EU but them. Until there is a change in the EU charter to give them authority all they can do is nothing, they have no authority and they have no way to punish Ireland for failing to comply with their illegal order.
No there's no equivalence, it's like a clinically retarded evil gorilla in a world of ants stomping on competent evil ant, because he's an ant not because he's evil. The former can destroy the world, in which the latter is but a role player. Seriously. It's fucking Europe against a company.
It's all about a cut. A continental gangster. Be afraid.
In your analogy it would me much more akin to the retarded evil gorilla stomping on a colony of ants existing in a parasitic relationship with the other ants but a symbiotic relationship with a large number of the bannana trees available to the gorilla. Does it help the other ants? No. Will the retarded evil gorilla keep stomping on ants? Yes, until he stomps on all the ants otherwise protecting the bannana trees and starves to death himself. Retarded evil gorillas cannot subsist on ants alone, they need bannanas.
that was pretty cool.
The Irish government is breaking EU guidance. I'm not sure what legal powers and/or consequences the EU has about that but one of the principles of such guidance is to prevent member states from racing to the bottom with their tax laws and thus giving away bargaining power.
I don't know why this was downmodded.. It puts into perspective just how insane the deal was. Ireland really got very little out of it.
The currency of politics is votes, not money. Bring jobs to your constituents is one of the most effective ways to get those votes.
Plus its more than 6,500 jobs. Money fans out into a community and supports many other jobs as workers spend it.
Apple and Ireland in 2003 entered into an agreement that both should have known is not in compliance with Ireland's pre-existing agreements with the EEC/EU.
The EC told Ireland to correct this, and collect outstanding taxes from Apple.
If Ireland refuses, they can be fined (has happened to other countries), or better, removed from the Common Market (never happened, arguably not a likely step).
If Ireland proceeds to try and collect, and Apple refuses, this is a matter between Ireland and Apple, at least until Ireland requests that the rest of the EU seize Apple property to make up for the outstanding taxes.
Ha ha ha.
Timmy Cook deserves every kick to his nuts.
Sweet!
And $1 Billion for each of the U.S. Citizens he murdered in San Berdadino last year with his two ISIS children who pulled the trigger.
Ha ha
Proves that the UK was right in deciding to go the Brexit route, and that Scotland, Wales and Northern Ireland - despite their reservations - would be better off.
No, not really.
Now the EU comes in and rules that the tax exemptions that Ireland gave Apple are illegal?
Yes, because Ireland agreed with the other EU states that they wouldn't do that as part of a trade agreement.
his is precisely why there are so many who think that leaving the EU is the right choice.
Yes and those people are stupid because leaving the EU doesn't give you the magic ability to violate trade agreements with no consequences.
no capability of addressing the real needs of the citizens of Europe - namely being safe from 'terrorists'
I am safe from terrorists. We have an amortized annual death rate sue to terrorism of about 6 people per year in the UK which is about double the rate of people killed by lightning strikes, and an order of magnitude less likely than being killed by a falling object and two orders of magnitude less likely than dying as a result of falling down the stairs. You're 3 times as likely to drown in the bath as you are being killed by a terrorist. On the other hand, you're more likely being killed by a terrorist than you are to be stung to death by bees, wasps or hornets (aggregated), by about a factor of two.
The numbers simply do not support a fear of terrorism.
SJW n. One who posts facts.
...said no project manager, anywhere, ever.
There is no order to pay anything. It is just a directive from EC to Ireland that their deal with Apple is illegal and Ireland should collect "back taxes" from Apple at a rate the EC has determined. It is up to the Irish government to decide how to proceed. This will most likely end up as an appeal and get dismissed silently (like Amazon and Starbucks) or may be with a very small penalty. The statutes that provide tax benefits might change but other incentives would be used to provide the same benefits (as done by Luxembourg and the Netherlands). Or in the worst case, Ireland, Netherlands and Luxembourg could threaten to exit the union. ;-)
For the general folks that are holding euros, watch the forex rates carefully for the next few months. Italy is calling !
EC press release : - http://europa.eu/rapid/press-r...
You are apparently completely ignorant of what Apple's tax arrangement was. Please read the statement of the European Comission.
To spell it out: Ireland was charging Apple the 12.5% tax on sales made in Ireland. The sales made in the rest of Europe were not taxed. At all. So Ireland was simply robbing the other EU countries of their tax money. Stopping this scam is precisely what we need the EU comission to do.
And you think exiting the EU would be the proper answer to this? Go ahead, please. Let's see how Apple likes to stay in Ireland without access to the European market.
entropy happens
If they want to be part of the European Common Market, they have to abide by the rules all the members, including Ireland, agreed to. If Ireland wishes to go its own way, it can invoke Article 50 like Britain has. Of course, that would likely mean companies like Apple and Microsoft would move their European headquarters, because the real reason that Ireland and these companies struck up these rather favorable tax deals was because they could gain access to the Common Market while gaining a very advantageous tax rate from being taxed in Ireland, rather than, say, Britain or Germany.
The world's burning. Moped Jesus spotted on I50. Details at 11.
The company is helmed by an uber-leftist who supports all the usual left-wing suspects in politics and all the usual left-wing policies, which include all that "tax the rich", "pay their 'fair share'", and "corporations are NOT people" rhetoric. He simultaneously keeps his corporate power doing what all these left-leaning super-rich CEOs do: dodging all the taxes they can so that all the burdens of the welfare states they back fall upon the middle class workers while the wealthy live a life of ease off the untaxed wealth of these businesses.
It's all a fraud. These people like Mr Cook do NOT support higher taxes on the rich to pay for goodies for the poor - they, and the politicians they back, support higher taxes on the middle class and reduced opportunities for the middle class to make things very slightly better for the refugees they shift from country to country while they themselves use walls and armed security and private planes to hide from all the societal devestation they create.
Guess what, Timbo?
Sooner or later, the people get tired of the charade that only makes the rich richer and the middle class poorer.
Oh, and all those liberal politicians you back love your products, but they love their jobs even more, so when their welfare states inevitably need more cash they're gonna be forced to choose between you and their jobs...... and they'll choose their jobs.
Confused? Well they live in the United State of America, they should know better.
It's not like a treaty, it IS a treaty. The ECC has been around in one form or another for nearly sixty years, and the whole point of the common market is to allow the free flow of goods and services between member states. That requires rules to deal with member states who try to gain unfair advantage by, say, granting large multinationals absurdly low tax rates, and, once they've set up shop, can now gain access to the entire Common Market.
I'm not clear what critics are objecting to here. Are they saying nations should be able to just ignore treaty provisions which they willingly and freely signed up for whenever they want? Are critics saying that other signatories to said treaties have no right to demand redress?
The world's burning. Moped Jesus spotted on I50. Details at 11.
EU does indeed have laws. This order is based on a violation of anti-competitive law because a specific company was favored, as the Dublin webshop down the street had to pay the full 12.5% corporate tax.
See https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/..., specifically Article 107 http://eur-lex.europa.eu/legal....
This is total bullshit. They can set whatever corporation tax they like, and it isn't a fine.
They have authority over state aid, which includes tax breaks. Get with the program.
Ayup. I don't even know anybody that knows anybody that is an Irish engineer.
Excuse me, but please get off my Pennisetum Clandestinum, eh!
It seems the problem was Ireland's offer and Apple's acceptance of this incredibly generous tax agreement. It's a bit late for the EU to step in and try to retroactively rewrite the actions of a member state, while handing the bill to a company that negotiated in good faith, thinking they were dealing with a government that had the authority to regulate its own taxes.
That said, the business of foreign tax havens is extremely common throughout the corporate world. It's one of the most successful tax dodges on the planet. Worst of all, it encourages hoarding of cash in low-tax countries, which does nothing to help the economy in countries where products were sold and profit was earned. As much as I'd like to see the corporate tax havens disappear, that's not going to happen.
Of course, it's far /easier/ for the EU to try to punish Apple, as they really don't want to engender any more centrifugal forces in the EU right now by whomping Ireland with a $15bn invoice.
That wouldn't make any sense either.
Apple benefitted to the tune of $15bn over other companies by making a deal illegal under EU Law. It's Apple that owes the money. And the only people they owe it too are Ireland. The EU demanding money from Ireland wouldn't make the slightest bit of sense.
Ireland agreed in principle to collect that tax as a condition of entering the free market. Now the EU is reminding them of the agreement.
SJW n. One who posts facts.
Apple has not paid all taxes as per the law in Ireland. They paid taxes according to a special deal with the Irish government. Such a special deal has been found to be equivalent to state aid. This is illegal in the EU. So the deal is null and void. Apple now has to pay all taxes as per the law in Ireland.
0.005% is half a percent of one percent.
It's like paying $4 in tax on a $80k salary. Shit, if I had a tax rate like that it'd save me hundreds a year.
The EU isn't trying to get Irish income taxes. The EU is mandating that Ireland complies with its treaty obligations not to provide state subsidies.
some welfare states in the EU
..like Ireland? Net recipient of EU funds almost every year.
It's not that EU members want $14.5 Billion. They just want it taken from Apple as a lesson that they can't hide.
You appear to lack basic reading comprehension, and have a very malignant and malformed view of reality.
Just why are you so vitriolic towards the EU requesting one of its members not to break the treaty they signed?
Curious. What the fuck does this have to do with the US?
Incidentally, this is Slashdot and not Facebook. You're allowed to have adult conversations here.
Apple is not being fined. It was found that Ireland was giving Apple an illegal state subsidy. Apple has to pay it back. Ireland is the one that is possibly facing fines.
Better to keep it in the EU, just set a national corporation tax rate at close to 0 and implement generous rules on what can be offset against it.
How do you suggest the EU would deal with this proactively? Every tax deal that any country makes needs to go through Brussels first to be approved?
Ireland has been warned time and time again that these shenanigans are against existing treaties. That the actual legal proceedings take time is a given and any good lawyer would have known that this is a possible outcome. Apple has good lawyers: they knew this was either illegal or borderline legal according to EU treaties and took their chances.
Who is confused? American states are not sovereign, neither are EU members.
John McAfee 'It was like that time I hired that Bangkok prostitute; to do my taxes, while I fucked my accountant'
Leaving tax burden on the working poor (your CUSTOMERS) is such a dick move. Pay your damn taxes.
Dislike Apple as much as the next sentient creature. But the EU is way out of bounds. Apple has followed the law; Ireland is protesting bureaucrats in Brussels, and the dirigistes will get smacked down in due course. Here's how to think about it - nations compete just as much as individuals and corporations. A low-tax, low benefit state competes on the merits with a high tax, high benefit state. People can vote in elections for what they prefer, and vote with their feet if that doesn't work. The only loser in that situation is the high-tax BUT low benefit state. And that's the EU. The bullies in Brussels lose on the merits and so try to squash the competition. That's too bad. It's only the competition that keeps the politicos and hacks in any sort of control.
Yeah, what we *really* need is a Special Olympics for *all* businesses whereby they are *all* handicapped (always need *more* taxes, right? gotta keep up with exponentially increasing gubmint waste and inefficiency) to the same degree. >> Or, better yet, the "State" come in and take over *all* the businesses. >> Have to make it "fair" for *everybody!* >> It won't be "fair" until we are *all* eating Soylent Purple. >> Yes, there will *still* be the evil "rich" people and (probably) a "One Percent," but ... at least the playing field with be "level" and nobody will have "unfair advantages," right? >>
Dolts. >>
Enjoy your Soylent Purple. >>
HINT: Big Government is my enemy, not Apple >>
HINT TWO: All you ignorant fucks ranting about "raise taxes" on the "rich?" Fucking retards, they're coming for *you* because (in a world where the Gubmint spends more and more and more and becomes more centralized—as in GLOBAL) eventually, *you* are seen as rich because you do—in fact—have much more wealth than most people. That's right, libtards, we want *your* money because, well, you have *more* than us and people like I (poor and homeless for most of the past 17 years. >>
HINT THREE: It's just not "fair" that you have more than I do (whether you get paid what you *think* you "deserve" or not) ... $400-700 a month.
-- "I'm not in a hurry; I'm in Hawaii." The Homeless Guy
Good to know, EU.
They're out to give Wickard v. Filburn a run for its money, looks like.
There's no time like the present. Well, the past used to be.
God, please do the latter one already!
In capitalist USA corporations control the government.
I'm guessing you also believe that apple went with this deal in good faith.
In capitalist USA corporations control the government.
You really know everything about this case, don't you? Like, why it's really good idea to try and do what they did in Ireland from non-EU country instead, LOL :D
In capitalist USA corporations control the government.
1. Tax Corporation Revenues, Not Profits;
2. Regulate Market Capitalization of Corporations;
Casteism
Fuck Off troll. Considering all reports say the UK fucked itself pulling out of the EU
What "all reports"? I bet you've been reading articles that supports your own views again, haven't you?
Because, what I've read is only confirming what everyone, never mind what camp of long term results they belong, said already before the vote: that on short term it will cost UK to leave EU. The long term results are still only speculation, and while I do have an opinion about it I also acknowledge that we don't actually know for sure how it will play out for UK. You neither, and there are no reports that prove what will happen either - not ones that you should take seriously anyway. Now speculations/theories, that's a different thing, and no, there is no agreement between different analysts there.
Sorry for poor English - and I mean my writing :D
In capitalist USA corporations control the government.
the EU requesting one of its members not to break the treaty they signed?
How did they break it? The claim of the EU regulator is that Ireland gave Apple a special subsidy. In reality, this provision of their tax code is available to ANY company doing business in Ireland. And has been for years. Microsoft has taken advantage of it (my next door neighbor works for the R&D division involved in this), as have a number of drug companies. Apple has just been more aggressive than most and as a result, profited more from it.
have a very malignant and malformed view of reality.
I have corporate tax attorneys in my family who are very familiar with this loophole.
Just why are you so vitriolic towards the EU
Because I'm in favor of the rule of law rather than a kleptocracy that goes after someone just because they realized a bigger gain.
Here's the thing: IF it can be shown in the appropriate court that Ireland broke some treaty by implementing tax code the way that they did, Apple broke no laws. They complied fully with Irish regulations, according to Cook. So, until the EU can demonstrate that laws have been broken, Apple should owe zero. And even then, if it turns out that the Irish government violated a treaty, unless Apple can be shown to have persuaded them to do so, they (Apple) owe zero. Aside from that, the beef that the EU regulator has is with Ireland, not Apple.
Have gnu, will travel.
It's not Apple's job to ensure Ireland's offer is in conformance with EU policy. That's it. It's a company's duty to its shareholders to legally reduce its tax burden; by making an agreement with a GOVERNMENT, they fulfilled their role completely.
After all the unethical stuff done by corporations I've seen defended and justified by someone with the same tired argument, every time I see it the more I'm thinking that corporations should be outlawed as unethical by nature, seeing that apparently they have a legal obligation to their shareholders to participate in unethical practices.
In capitalist USA corporations control the government.
If (as Ireland and Apple claim) there hasn't been any special treatment then there is no subsidy and the regulator will get overruled.
a kleptocracy
As I said, malformed and malignant. You're making shit up, projecting motivations and overlaying your own warped viewpoint on the facts. The regulator believes there has been a transgression of agreed rules, and has responded by identifying a correction mechanism. Where's the fucking theft?
So, until the EU can demonstrate that laws have been broken, Apple should owe zero
At this moment in time the regulator has ruled that the laws have been broken, and so Apple do owe the money that they have retained due to the illegal subsidy.
An appeal is almost certain, and a court will rule. At that point it may be determined that there is no illegal subsidy and at that point Apple will owe nothing. We haven't yet reached that point but surely this is the simple rule of law you're demanding?
if it turns out that the Irish government violated a treaty, unless Apple can be shown to have persuaded them to do so, they (Apple) owe zero
If the Irish Government have illegally subsidised a company then that subsidy should be reversed.
If I steal a car and sell it to you for a bag of peanuts, are you saying that you should be allowed to keep it, because you didn't steal it?
Laws in this country disagree with you. The EU disagree with you. Shit, Ireland disagrees with you; their claim is that the law wasn't broken.
Ireland disagrees with you; their claim is that the law wasn't broken.
But we keep jumping back and forth between Irish law not being in compliance with EU treaty and Apple breaking a law. The Irish say that Apple didn't and their regulators and courts are sovereign in this case. If the Irish tax code is judged to be out of compliance with EU treaties, then that's an issue between Ireland and the EU.
When our federal government implemented a national 55 MPH speed limit, some states resisted the change. The only thing the feds could do was to withhold federal funds from states. There was no way they could force the states to issue speeding tickets for 70 in a 55 zone when the states maintained the higher speed limit.
Have gnu, will travel.
Not at all. If Apple accepted an illegal subsidy then they've clearly misbehaved.
Irish law is irrelevant here; it's availability and applicability to all companies is the issue.
They can suspend them from the EU. This kills the Ireland.