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Researchers Predict Next-Gen Batteries Will Last 10 Times Longer (newatlas.com)

Posted by EditorDavid on from the leading-the-charge dept.

Lithium-metal electrodes could increase the storage capacity of batteries 10-fold, predict researchers at the University of Michigan, allowing electric cars to drive from New York to Denver without recharging. Using a $100 piece of technology, the team is now peeking inside charging batteries to study the formation of "dendrites," which consume liquid electrolytes and reduce capacity. Slashdot reader Eloking quotes New Atlas: Battery cells are normally tested through cycles of charge and discharge, testing the capacity and flow potential of the cells before being dissected. Dasgupta and his team...added a window to a lithium cell so that they could film the dendrites forming and deforming during charge and discharge cycles.
In a video interview they're reporting that dendrites can actually help a battery if they form a small, even "carpet" inside of the battery which "can keep more lithium in play." According to the article, "The future of lithium-ion batteries is limited, says University of Michigan researcher Neil Dasgupta, because the chemistry cannot be pushed much further than it already has. Next-generation lithium cells will likely use lithium air and lithium sulfur chemistries."

96 of 171 comments (clear)

  1. I say BS by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1

    This goes in a slashdot file with cures for cancer and efficient solar cells. And inexpensive housing for the poor.

    1. Re:I say BS by Tablizer · · Score: 1

      and invented in a flying car.

      --
      Table-ized A.I.
    2. Re:I say BS by Rei · · Score: 1, Insightful

      Yes, cue the standard "Batteries haven't advanced!" stuff from people carrying around cell phones with significantly more amp hours in a smaller battery profile than the last generation phones that they owned.

      News flash: every time a new tech advance makes it into a product, they don't mail a letter about it to everybody who read an article about it years earlier. Example: hey, remember all of that stuff about breakthroughs in silicon anodes several years back? Yeah, they're in batteries now. Even Tesla is starting to use it in their higher-end packs.

      --
      "99 dead duelists of Dios on the wall. 99 dead duelists of Dios! Take one's ring, pass it around..."
    3. Re:I say BS by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1

      You're focusing on the immediate problem, not the long-term problem. Namely, what does society do with the homeless?

      Unless you answer that question, your housing project will turn into Cabrini green.

      A lot of the homeless problem comes from education in our country being so expensive; we've created this viscous cycle of biased education where teachers are required to possess masters degree's in order to teach the basics in kindergarten. We completely ignore the fact that teachers unions have an enforced-at-gunpoint monopoly. Case in point, I've been taking a college course and we had kids, in their 20's, in class, watching the blackhawks game, because their expectations are they just need to be in the course for a set period of time. That expectation was set by public schools who do not offer a clear path for very intelligent children to graduate early and skip grades, because there is no clear body of work that you can complete in order to demonstrate you meet the educators' standards. The teachers expect to walk in the door with their fancy degree's and expect the plebeians trust them and their educational might; one of the reasons K-12 schools feel like prison is because you aren't completing a body of work, you're instead doing your time. Due to that and ADA requirements, the instructor has been demoralized to the point he's doing his time there, in order to get experience, in order to get into a more prestigious institution. It's absolute madness.

      We have this concept of diversity driving change within our communities for the better, and we have elites using it as an excuse to flood countries with migrant workers in order to depress the political and communal expectations of the indigenous population.

      Unfortunately, none of this is easy to look at or solve, especially for government.

    4. Re:I say BS by Mr+D+from+63 · · Score: 1

      I don't recall anyone here every saying batteries haven't advanced. They certainly have. More so in manufacturing tech than actual battery chemistry tech, but they go hand in hand. They key advancement has been bringing the price down on lithium ion batteries through advanced production methods that allow higher density. This the result of half a century of intense effort to keep improving them. There are limits to lithium ion though, its been around a long time and there hasn't been another technology yet to supplant it.

    5. Re:I say BS by DamonHD · · Score: 2

      It happens regularly.

      Quite a lot of my replies are asking people to stop doing it because it's ignorance, posturing or worse!

      Rgds

      Damon

      --
      http://m.earth.org.uk/
    6. Re:I say BS by fyngyrz · · Score: 1

      If you don't want to be homeless, build a house.

      Homeless generally means both "not a landowner" and "has no money" which prevents the former even if they wanted to go there.

      If you don't want to be hungry, go fishing.

      Buy a license, buy a pole, collect bait somehow, weather considerations, legal locations, seasons, specific game fish, prepping, finding wood to cook with...

      If you want to survive, get your ass moving instead of wasting the day pseudo-intellectualizing or lamenting about the unfairness of nature that has always existed since the beginning of time when it blew the first human village up with a volcano and the laws of the universe didn't even blink, let alone give a shit.

      No, the universe doesn't, for sure. But people who are worth a shit, do give a shit.

      WRT "get moving", to quote a fine summary of just one aspect of the problem, "I'm pretty sure McDonald's has an underwear inside the pants policy" (Source here at 3:31 but by all means, check out the whole performance, it's pretty much spot on from beginning to end.)

      --
      I've fallen off your lawn, and I can't get up.
    7. Re:I say BS by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 5, Interesting

      Ah, the smell of fresh crap on Slashdot on a Sunday afternoon:
      "Inexpensive housing for the poor has existed since the first axe was used to chop wood and form walls and a roof."

      And where, pray tell, do these resourceful Homeless and their shopping carts full of surplus building supplies, build their houses? Shanty towns have been around forever... until the Lords of the Land gets pissed off and levels them. Bulldozers do make it much easier these days, but in Ireland 170 years ago, special iron-tipped sticks were used to tumble the walls of the houses of the evicted, so that they couldn't return. Or perhaps you are more familiar with the thousands of "Hoovervilles" circa 1930. General Douglas MacArthur gained fame and good will by using Federal Troops to burn the ~15,000 Man "Bonus Army" Camp out of Washington, DC, with the able assistance of Patton and Eisenhower.
      And then, by any chance did you see that movie with a young Hank Fonda made about a decade later, called "The Grapes Of Wrath"?. Those weren't Sets, that was a real Shanty Town, as was the Weedpatch Migrant Camp, which _was_ built by the Homeless, under Government Support. Damn commies.

      "All that's left for that inexpensive housing is for the poor to do what humans with far less did thousands of years ago, and get their asses moving."

      To where, you mushy turd of a Human Being? Your Backyard? The Parking Lot at where you work? Central Park in New York City... again? Or maybe you are thinking of some only slightly radioactive Nevada desert now surplus to Government needs, and only maybe fifty miles from the nearest Shopping, Schooling, and Employment? (Note: Even the Shoshone Tribes don't want that land back...) Or perhaps you are thinking of some place further away, where they can go with little chance of ever returning. Much of Quebec and Nova Scotia were settled by some suddenly Homeless; America's solution to the Loyalist Problem. But these days, Canada may object.

    8. Re:I say BS by Rei · · Score: 1, Informative

      No, I meant precisely what I wrote. Every word. Go look at old cell phone batteries and how many amp hours they provide if you don't believe me.

      --
      "99 dead duelists of Dios on the wall. 99 dead duelists of Dios! Take one's ring, pass it around..."
    9. Re:I say BS by michelcolman · · Score: 1

      I, for one, welcome our new flying Tesla overlords

    10. Re:I say BS by Rei · · Score: 5, Informative

      *Sigh*

      And I'm telling you that lithium-ion batteries are not a "single tech", that they've dramatically improved in power and energy density (both volumetric and gravimetric) over time. And if you doubt this, I repeat: go find and older lithium-ion battery and compare it to a new one.

      As for li-air, yes, the maximum energy density of li-air is about 10x of the maximum of li-ion. Namely because it works by direct oxidation rather than intercalation, so you don't need the mass of the matrix into which the ions get intercalated. It is not a "magical tech". It exists. Like all technologies in all fields, however, you have to reach production specs. This means not only maintaining a combination of safety, reliability, longevity, efficiency, temperature range, power density (charge and discharge) and energy density, but also affordability in mass production. And to be able to guarantee that you can do all of these things to a high enough level for investors to take the risk.

      As with all technologies, you start out with promise in one or two fields, but serious problems in many others that you have to deal with. With time you refine them, until all of refined to a state where the product is commercialized. Li-air has actually been advancing quite well. In the early days one of its biggest problems were efficiency and longevity, but they've made huge strides in both in recent years. Lithium sulfur still looks nearer term, but commercialization of Li-air appears to have gone from "possible" to "quite probable".

      --
      "99 dead duelists of Dios on the wall. 99 dead duelists of Dios! Take one's ring, pass it around..."
    11. Re:I say BS by FatdogHaiku · · Score: 1

      I agree. Why, it used to be that you needed a laptop battery to cook a steak, and now a cell phone battery can do the same job! Plus, the fumes given off during the process give you food that certain something (as in "I'm certain this is toxic") which is tough to reproduce using fire from more mundane fuels...

      --
      You have the right to remain sentient. If you give up the right to remain sentient, you will be elected to public office
    12. Re:I say BS by MBGMorden · · Score: 1

      I'm sure many wouldn't mind, but see there's not really open land to just live on anymore. Most of it is either privately owned or public land that forbids camping.

      And if you figure you'll hunt/gather? Everyone - even the homeless - are still subject to game seasons. Kinda hard to live off of hunting deer if its only legal to hunt them for a month or two out of the year.

      The simple fact is that if you are broke, you can't just go live off the land like our ancestors did without breaking a myriad of laws and getting arrested. I'm not one for expansive social programs - I'm actually fairly conservative. However I think that as a public service we should absolutely provide a basic facility to house anyone without a permanent residence. It needn't be extravagant, but IMHO providing them with a bunk, a shower, and 3 basic no-frills meals until they can get back on their feet should be obvious. Otherwise you have people who get into a rut that they can basically never climb back out of.

      If you don't most of them are going to resort to crime and you'll be providing all those things anyways - why not provide them in a way to promote getting people off the system ASAP?

      --
      "People who think they know everything are very annoying to those of us who do."-Mark Twain
    13. Re:I say BS by narcc · · Score: 1

      Yeah, because technology is guaranteed to continually improve, inevitably circumventing any and all physical limits...

      It's true. That's why the average automobile today gets 8,000 mpg, the shuttle to Jupiter runs three times a day, and cancer can be cured in an afternoon with an inexpensive over-the-counter remedy.

      --
      Required reading for internet skeptics
    14. Re:I say BS by arglebargle_xiv · · Score: 1

      Oh no, it's all true, they just forgot to mention that they also burn ten times as intensely, and explode with a yield where you'd normally expect to find fission byproducts. Samsung are already prepping them for the upcoming Galaxy M67.

    15. Re:I say BS by CanEHdian · · Score: 1

      The "problem" is that engineers are already drooling over designs how they can make the battery 10x smaller. So, you're userspace "battery life" remains the exact same, which is: you have to charge it every night and it still dies on you mid-afternoon if you have been on it all morning. Hopefully one of the major manufacturers will release a phone in 2015 size ("Poweruser Edition") that actually has a 10x increased userspace battery life... so you'd have to charge it once a week. But if you still have 1,000 charge/recharge cycles, the industry-standard planned obsolence plans are foiled, so I don't think it will happen.

      --
      When the copyright term is "forever minus a day", live every day like it's the last.
    16. Re:I say BS by Rei · · Score: 1

      Wow, unreferenced rant someone added at the bottom - clearly you've got me there!

      Try googling those quotes. The first one is only people quoting Wikipedia. The second one, I downloaded the paper and the conclusion says just the opposite ("A huge interest expressed by the scientific community in the development of Li-air battery is the demand of modern automotive industry. We have identified four major areas. If properly addressed, this technology may enter the commercial phase in the near future." (immediately after going into a wide range of papers on dealing with each of these four topics))

      --
      "99 dead duelists of Dios on the wall. 99 dead duelists of Dios! Take one's ring, pass it around..."
    17. Re:I say BS by RabidReindeer · · Score: 1

      Jupiter three times a day, meh. What about the Kessel Run?

      And computers can now fit on a single floor of an office building and consume less than 100KW/hr.

      Seriously, we have a group of people who think that on the one hand you can lay off people ad infinitium and new jobs will magically appear for them all just because that's the way it's always happened and on the other, we have cynics who think that every new discovery counts for naught.

      It might be well to recall that for probably 20 years, the laser was described as a solution looking for a problem, and now almost no home is without at least one doing something useful. Not everything comes in straight lines or simple curves. Sometimes it's one snowflake at a time, followed by an avalanche.

    18. Re:I say BS by RabidReindeer · · Score: 1

      Give a man a fish and he'll eat for a day.

      Teach a man to fish and slowly bleed him to death since you own the lake, the boats, the dock, the bait and tackle shop, the poles, and oh yes, the forests so he can't cut his own pole and he has to pay you for any and all of the above.

      Oh, and the transportation lines, so even moving away isn't an option. Plus, of course, there's arrears on rent that have to be paid first.

      The Real World isn't quite as simple as the soundbites make it out to be.

    19. Re:I say BS by Rei · · Score: 2

      the improvements have been minor in battery tech... the main improvement has been in lowering energy use in the chips (shrinking mainly)

      Flatly contradicted by comparing old batteries with new, amp hours vs. volume and mass. For the past couple decades, batteries have doubled in energy density once every 8 years or so. Do you perchance have an old cell phone lying around at home? Check out its amp-hour rating and see how big/heavy it is compared to the amp hour rating and size/mass of your current cell phone's battery.

      and the article say's nothing about 10x, so yes this is bullshit..

      No, it is not. The maximum theoretical energy density of li-air is about 10x that of the maximum theoretical for LCO/graphite li-ion.

      The problem is chemistry, no matter how much you want to believe it's possible to make a battery that is anywhere near as energy dense as gasoline, the chemistry say's no!!

      Once again, false. The maximum gravimetric energy density for li-air is comparable to gasoline (12kWh/kg vs. 13kWh/kg) in the charged state, and significantly better in the discharged state. Now, you don't ever achieve the maximum for a particular chemistry, or even close to it. But then again, for a given amount of EV range, you don't have to, as electric drivetrains are 3-5x more efficient than ICE drivetrains.

      Of course, neither of these are actual impediments to EV adoption; nobody gives a rat's arse whether a battery pack is physically larger or heavier than a gas tank (partially or completely offset by the reduced drivetrain mass). The real impediment is price. That said, if cost per unit mass/volume remains the same and energy density improves, then cost per watt hour improves as well.

      --
      "99 dead duelists of Dios on the wall. 99 dead duelists of Dios! Take one's ring, pass it around..."
    20. Re: I say BS by Applehu+Akbar · · Score: 1

      Okay, you dig the hole and I'll get the ticks.

    21. Re:I say BS by Rei · · Score: 1

      ** Ed: Should read "in the discharged state, and significantly better in the charged state". It's heaviest in the discharge state.

      --
      "99 dead duelists of Dios on the wall. 99 dead duelists of Dios! Take one's ring, pass it around..."
    22. Re:I say BS by liquid_schwartz · · Score: 1

      There has to be some middle ground if we look. For example it could be that we both take care of people while still requiring them to work. As long as there is trash on the streets or lonely people in retirement homes there is useful work that can be done. This allows us to take care of those who need help without having them become accustomed to being idle. Between welfare and unemployment we have an army of workers that could be used for much social good. As for those who refuse to work but still want a free lunch - too bad.

    23. Re:I say BS by Methadras · · Score: 1

      Stop predicting, start doing. Really getting annoyed with these fantasy prediction articles.

    24. Re:I say BS by fisted · · Score: 1

      Yes, cue the standard "Batteries haven't advanced!" stuff from people carrying around cell phones with significantly more amp hours in a smaller battery profile than the last generation phones that they owned.

      Well in the eyes of the average smartphone zombie, what has really happened is "cell phone battery life" plummeting. My Nokia brick lasted weeks (plural) even when the battery was years old. Earlier this year it finally broke, I replaced it with a smartphone which, depending on usage, has a battery that lasts something between half a day and three days. So what is the obvious conclusion to arrive at? Battery tech isn't improving. Can't really blame them for that.

      --
      CLI paste? paste.pr0.tips!
    25. Re:I say BS by Coren22 · · Score: 1

      It looks like TFS has this wrong though. Dendrites don't reduce a battery's capacity, but lifetime. Reducing the production of dendrites extends how long until the cell fails, which increases the total lifetime, not the capacity. This is good to make batteries that don't need to be replaced as often, which helps reduce the TCO of any battery powered device, including cars.

      Also, for those doubting what you say above, I find the best thing is to point them at the facts:

      https://www.quora.com/Is-it-tr...

      Batteries have increased density quite well over time, it is just the push for smaller phones and faster processors eats the improvements so that it isn't as obvious to end users that the batteries are improving over time.

      --
      APK likes to ask for responses to the same things over and over. Maybe he just likes the responses?
  2. Progress! by Tablizer · · Score: 5, Funny

    and Note 7 II's will explode 10x brighter.

    --
    Table-ized A.I.
    1. Re:Progress! by Rei · · Score: 5, Interesting

      Actually, that is a concern. Li-ion batteries don't have lithium metal in them unless something goes wrong. Lithium-air batteries always have lithium metal in them, by design.

      In practice, you'll probably see a bit of the energy density given up in order to beef up the casing to prevent rupture/fire.

      Thankfully, lithium-sulfur batteries don't use lithium metal, just lithium polysulfides. The max energy density isn't as high, but it's still quite good. They're already on the market, albeit in small quantities for applications that require the absolute highest rechargeable energy density (mainly aerospace).

      --
      "99 dead duelists of Dios on the wall. 99 dead duelists of Dios! Take one's ring, pass it around..."
    2. Re:Progress! by avandesande · · Score: 1

      Instead of exploding the first day you get your Note, it will explode day ten.

      --
      love is just extroverted narcissism
    3. Re:Progress! by SeaFox · · Score: 1

      I hear the military will be considering them for alternatives to the M84.

  3. Oh Boy by sexconker · · Score: 1, Funny

    10 times longer-lasting batteries? Given every other promised battery advancement over the last 50 years that hasn't come to fruition, we're going to be at infinite capacity batters when they all finally hit!

    1. Re:Oh Boy by tsa · · Score: 5, Insightful

      I remember when I was a young boy 40 years ago the batteries in my toys would last just an hour or so, and they would start to leak a very dirty brown liquid a few days after I had put them in my toys. Back then we hadn't even heard about rechargeable batteries, let alone Li-ion batteries. Nowadays I can play around with my Lego toys for a long time before my rechargeable, non-leaking batteries go flat. Li-ion batteries pack so much power into a small volume that they are able to explode all by themselves, or power a phone with the calculating capacities of a supercomputer from the 1990s for many hours on end. So reality doesn't support your claim that batteries haven't improved over the last 50 years.

      --

      -- Cheers!

    2. Re:Oh Boy by TheRealMindChild · · Score: 4, Informative

      Things simply use less power these days. Long gone are the times you needed 2x D batteries to power a flashlight.

      --

      "When life gives you lemons, don't make lemonade. Make life take the lemons back!" -- Cave Johnson
    3. Re:Oh Boy by Wookie+Monster · · Score: 5, Insightful

      Batteries for Lego toys mostly power motors, not lights. Electric motor efficiency hasn't improved that much. 50 years ago, battery powered tools didn't exist at all because no battery could hold enough charge and still be portable.

    4. Re:Oh Boy by DamonHD · · Score: 1

      Simply not true, see my earlier comment above.

      --
      http://m.earth.org.uk/
    5. Re:Oh Boy by William+Baric · · Score: 1

      I'm 47. When I was a young boy, regular alkaline batteries were pretty much the same as what we have now. I did see some cheap batteries leak, but those were the exception. Almost no one was using rechargeable batteries, that's true, but it was because we didn't care about the environment and found buying batteries and changing batteries more convenient. As an example, in 80s I bought a Sony Walkman F-601 which came with a rechargeable battery giving me about 10 hours of tape and 40 hours of radio, but I still found recharging it a pain in the ass so I often used the external case to use two regular AA batteries instead.

      Batteries did improve, but not as much as you make it look.

    6. Re:Oh Boy by chihowa · · Score: 4, Informative

      50 years ago, battery powered tools didn't exist at all because no battery could hold enough charge and still be portable.

      The first cordless electric drill was produced by Black and Decker in 1961, using NiCd batteries. That's 55 years ago.

      --
      If you want a vision of the future, imagine a youtube comments section scrolling - forever.
    7. Re:Oh Boy by sexconker · · Score: 1

      Bullshit. Nicads were prevalent in the 70s.

    8. Re:Oh Boy by sexconker · · Score: 1, Informative

      He's bullshitting through and through. He's likely a millennial whose imaging a past that didn't exist so he can pretend battery tech has meaningfully progressed.
      It hasn't.

    9. Re:Oh Boy by yuriklastalov · · Score: 1

      He's bullshitting through and through. He's likely a millennial whose imaging a past that didn't exist so he can pretend battery tech has meaningfully progressed.
      It hasn't.

      God damn it, the Baby Boomers have failed us yet again! Is there anything their scourge hasn't touched?!

    10. Re:Oh Boy by tsa · · Score: 1

      That's exactly why I used the Lego example.

      --

      -- Cheers!

    11. Re: Oh Boy by prefec2 · · Score: 1

      When you where a boy there where batteries in cars. The problem is in English you have not separate nouns for batteries who are rechargeable (akkumulator) and non rechargeable ones. However, they are different kinds if devices.

    12. Re:Oh Boy by Solandri · · Score: 1

      Current Li-ion batteries only have about twice the energy density of NiCds. The reputation NiCds got for having lousy energy capacity was due to a memory effect. If you kept recharging the battery before it had been fully discharged, it "learned" the low charge state as its new zero state, and you lost that bottom portion of its capacity (due to crystalline growth).

      Rechargeable batteries have increased about 2x in energy density in the last half century, and about 3.5x in the last century (from lead-acid to li-ion). So claims of a 10x increase in the near future are going to be met with a lot of skepticism.

    13. Re:Oh Boy by thegarbz · · Score: 1

      Things simply use less power these days. Long gone are the times you needed 2x D batteries to power a flashlight.

      No. Flashlights use less power these days. Kids electronic toys of 30-40 years ago either went duf duf duf (there few if any class-D amplifiers in toys, so they haven't increased in efficiency), or they went vreeeeeeeeeeeeeeuwwwww (and small DC motors powering moving toys haven't changed in efficiency in the best part of 50 years either). If you buy a little remote control car now you'll get the same 15minute run time as you did back then if you get a cheap one powered by AA or C cells.

      But test your theory. Throw 3 C cells into a quadrocopter and see how long it flies. I'm going to place my bets on not at all because you won't be able to draw enough current out of the batteries to get it off the ground, but please let me know. You may get lucky and get it to above height if you throw it first, and then your batteries will be flat within a couple of minutes.

    14. Re:Oh Boy by TurboStar · · Score: 1

      The reputation NiCds got for having lousy energy capacity was due to a memory effect. If you kept recharging the battery before it had been fully discharged, it "learned" the low charge state as its new zero state, and you lost that bottom portion of its capacity (due to crystalline growth).

      You mean voltage depression. And it's from overcharging. Easily reversed by discharging the cells individually. Memory effect is something else.

  4. Is this for real by Feral+Nerd · · Score: 2

    If this pans out (have my doubts), even if the capacity is only increased five fold, there will be two kinds of car companies, those that go electric and those who go the way of camera manufacturers who bet on film cameras being the future and waited too long to go digital.

    1. Re: Is this for real by maxm · · Score: 1

      +300 km range and 30 minutes charge time is probably enough that most of us will be satisfied. So in my book we are already there. Now all that will need to improve is the price, and that will come down radically in the next few years as production quadrouples.

      --
      Max M - IT's Mad Science
    2. Re: Is this for real by avandesande · · Score: 1

      1200 pounds and 15k dollars? At this point it seems like a bit of a kludge....

      --
      love is just extroverted narcissism
  5. WARNING! OFFTOPIC! by war4peace · · Score: 1

    I've been seeing this unrelated thing for a long time (years) and maybe I should ask the question:
    Is it just me, or Asian / Indian names appear more often than Western names when this type of articles are published?
    By that, I mean "Researchers find/predict/invent/discover" articles.
    Disclaimer: I'm Romanian.

    --
    ...gis sdrawkcab (usually not responding to ACs; don't bother posting as AC)
    1. Re:WARNING! OFFTOPIC! by tsa · · Score: 1

      Most electronics are made in the Far East, so I guess most battery research also goes on there.

      --

      -- Cheers!

    2. Re:WARNING! OFFTOPIC! by war4peace · · Score: 1

      "says University of Michigan researcher Neil Dasgupta"
      Michigan is not in the Far East, is it?

      --
      ...gis sdrawkcab (usually not responding to ACs; don't bother posting as AC)
  6. when? by chengin · · Score: 1

    I hear this story on and on from around 5 years. Nothing has emerged so far.

    1. Re:when? by chaosdivine69 · · Score: 1

      I think the technology exists (at least somewhere on this planet) but it's being held back to extract as much money as possible in the meantime on current technology. I have no direct evidence of this of course but when you think of what kinds of things humans can accomplish when they put their minds and copious amounts of funding toward it, you'd have to believe it's out there, even if only in a lab somewhere or in some military only role held in secret. This is going completely off topic (and I know I'll going all conspiracy theory and tin-foil hatter on ya) but consider the "non-battery tech" X-10 drone for example http://www.liveleak.com/view?i... and https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/... That sucker was swirling around the skies in 1953! It went over Mach 2 too. Re-read the year again and it will sink in. You don't just magically design and build something like that in a few years either. Stuff like that takes at LEAST 10 years to plan, build and test. Wikipedia says preliminary design was completed in 1951 and first flight was in 1953. So where are we now...approximately 1943 when they were drawing it up? Think about other technologies of that time frame...then it becomes more almost unicorn and Apple'ish magical! You could say similar things about German technologies of WW2. Like it's so far out there compared to earlier times and other countries offerings as to be mind blowing! Anyhow, back on topic...I'd be really surprised if 10x longer next-gen batteries have not existed for quite some time. DARPA funds crazy things like this all the time and they send people all over the world regularly to sit in on the latest University breakthroughs. If they don't have it, then no one has it - publicly at least.

  7. That would be the real game changer by SuperKendall · · Score: 1

    Non-electric cars are simply more practical for most people not just because of range, but also charging time. Even Tesla Supercharger stations take way too long for most people to tolerate.

    But if you have 1000 miles of range, suddenly it's much more practical to live with a very long charging time because you can wait a day or two to find a good charging solution - plus it would mean you could get somewhere faster than with a gas vehicle since you wouldn't have to stop on a long trip to fill up.

    We'll see if the tech actually materializes in real life, but I really hope it does.

    --
    "There is more worth loving than we have strength to love." - Brian Jay Stanley
    1. Re:That would be the real game changer by Rick+Schumann · · Score: 1

      I wonder how much the development of room-temperature superconductors would improve battery technology (and supercapacitor technology, for that matter) and electric cars in general? Imagine if you could build electric motors with superconducting wire, for instance. How much more efficient would they be?

    2. Re:That would be the real game changer by tsa · · Score: 1

      Long charging times are for most people only a problem on vacation. Normally people commute much shorter distances than the maximum modern electric cars can drive and can charge their cars at night. Long charging times are for most people only a problem on vacation, when they have time to wait half an hour for their car to get charged after driving for two hours.
      I think this whole 'long charging time' thing is fed by Big Oil astroturfers.

      --

      -- Cheers!

    3. Re:That would be the real game changer by reboot246 · · Score: 1

      Vacations. Really? I know lots of people who drive more than 300 miles on their jobs. They're not commuting; they're working. For example, one of my friends reads meters once a month. The meters are radio read, but you still have to drive to within range. He drives 350 miles in that one day of reading. Stop to charge a battery? Hell, he doesn't even stop for lunch.

      My job involves traveling long distances twice a week. I'm not commuting daily; I'm just going to where I'm going to be working during the week. If I have to be in another state 300 or 400 miles from home in a reasonable amount of time, I have to have a vehicle that can get me there. Sure, it would be nice to have an electric-powered pickup truck, but where do I find a motel in a small town in the middle of nowhere with charging capability?

    4. Re:That would be the real game changer by tsa · · Score: 1

      I knew someone would start bitching about this. Just because "all those people" you know drive a lot every day doesn't meaneverybody does. Ever heard of statistics?

      --

      -- Cheers!

    5. Re:That would be the real game changer by floatpt · · Score: 1

      Well clearly this tech wouldn't work for you in your specific profession yet. Maybe there are other people it might work for? Like almost everybody: http://www.statisticbrain.com/...

      --
      d-_-b
  8. Hype by avandesande · · Score: 1

    We are already close to 1/5 for the theoretical limit for lithium ion batteries

    --
    love is just extroverted narcissism
  9. Researchers predicted last 20 of 3 bat innovations by JoeyRox · · Score: 1

    Lots of hype yet batteries still suck.

  10. I'll hold out for molecular distortion batteries by Rick+Schumann · · Score: 1

    ..or for dilithium power cells, or dark matter-based energy sources, or portable quantum singularity-based power sources. These 'chemical' batteries are so Last Thursday; totally uncool.

    You know, if your smartphones had, I dunno, an OFF switch, so you could power them completely down when you're not using them, I'll bet you dollars to doughnuts that the battery would last longer. ;-) But, of course, then you wouldn't be able to be tracked and monitored 24/7/365, so of course the powers-that-be don't want to make them that way. A pity, that.

  11. Re:Redundant by avandesande · · Score: 1

    Can't wait until they come out with a cordless washing machine!

    --
    love is just extroverted narcissism
  12. Sure by OneHundredAndTen · · Score: 1

    They will give you minty fresh breath as well. Something advertised like this can be almost guaranteed to come to nothing.

  13. Re:Redundant by Stewie241 · · Score: 1

    It does and it doesn't.

    I wonder how long you could get an old school Nokia phone (thing monochrome display with only characters) to last these days if you replaced the battery with the exact same weight of current battery technology.

    Or, take one of the earlier (say 80286) laptops and do the same.

    On the one hand, you are right - as battery technology has improved, we've only increased how much power these devices use. On the other hand, these devices are infinitely more useful than what we had back then and the tradeoff is certainly worthwhile.

  14. Buy Axes for the Homeless (uh, hammers, too!) by Geoffrey.landis · · Score: 1

    ...Axes are pretty cheap, and most homeless i see have those stashed....

    I assume your post is trying to be humorous, right?

    Really, on slashdot it is getting to be completely impossible to tell.

    Assuming it is a kind of tongue-in-cheek dry humor: ok, LOL.

    --
    http://www.geoffreylandis.com
    1. Re:Buy Axes for the Homeless (uh, hammers, too!) by Stuarticus · · Score: 1

      I think you're working from the crib sheet for the last election.

      --
      If you think someone isn't free to have a different definition of "freedom" you may be a tyrant.
  15. Normal is not what you think by SuperKendall · · Score: 1

    Long charging times are for most people only a problem on vacation. Normally people commute much shorter distances than the maximum modern electric cars can drive and can charge their cars at night.

    I love how you say "normally" when the vast number of people who have cars live in apartments where it may not be "normal" to have a plug anywhere near the car at night.

    Is your goal to have electric cars for only the elite? Or for EVERYONE? If electric cars are to break out of a tiny niche for the rich they have to work for people who do not own homes.

    --
    "There is more worth loving than we have strength to love." - Brian Jay Stanley
    1. Re: Normal is not what you think by TheMeuge · · Score: 1

      I suspect that you unknowingly confirmed that the desire of the left is to further dependency of the people on either the government or the elites for everything by making home ownership a luxury. Nothing like a society of renter's to be kicked around...

    2. Re:Normal is not what you think by WalksOnDirt · · Score: 1

      I love how you say "normally" when the vast number of people who have cars live in apartments where it may not be "normal" to have a plug anywhere near the car at night.

      It will take a long time, but what we need are construction rules that require a parking place with access to power for each new apartment. Some effort has already gone into this but it's still just beginning.

      --
      a,e,i,o,u and sometimes w and y (at be if of up cwm by)
    3. Re: Normal is not what you think by dwillden · · Score: 1

      The vandal resistant windscreen does exist, it's a formed sheet of diamond plate steel with titanium reinforcement struts. Not very useful if you actually want to drive anywhere but is very resistant to vandals trying to break it. Though it does tend to gather graffiti instead. Early experiments with electrifying it look good for resolving that issue, but long life batteries for powering the system in high crime areas take up the entire passenger compartment. ;)

      --
      I'm too lazy to compose a creative sig.
  16. quid pro quo by xushi · · Score: 1

    And phones / laptops / etc will need 10 times the power, bring it down to the same situation we're in right now, and were 2, 5, 10 years ago... Big whoop..

  17. Re:Compact Florescents would like a word by thinkwaitfast · · Score: 2

    Regular fluorescent bulbs are chock full of mercury too. I've never understood why CF is singled out on this point. I have all LED now, but cf was a lifesaver when going off grid.

  18. Re:I want capsule apartments by ShanghaiBill · · Score: 1

    Japan has 'capsule hotels'. I figured they could be cheap housing for the poor.

    Unless capsule hotels somehow magically cure mental illness and substance abuse, they will do little to solve "homelessness", which is a far deeper problem than mere lack of housing.

    I have been to Tokyo many times, and have used the capsules. They are nice, and work well when people are quiet, clean, and respectful. They would not work well with typical homeless people, talking back to the voices in their heads, refusing to bathe, arguing and fighting with each other, and vandalizing the capsules.

    I have also been "homeless" in America. When I first moved to Silicon Valley, I bought a used van for $4k, fixed it up, and lived in it for 2 years while I built up my savings to buy a house. My employer provided toilets, showers and a kitchen, and gave me permission to park overnight, which was a win-win because that meant I was available when the server crashed at 2am. I later sold the van for slightly more than I had paid for it. Now I am far from a typical homeless person, but I "solved" my homeless problem for a net cost of $0, and any halfway functional person could do the same. The real problem with homelessness is that most of them are not halfway functional, and any "cure" for homelessness needs to account for that.

  19. It can be solved - the solution is Hydrogen by SuperKendall · · Score: 1

    I've noticed that also in the past when traveling and staying with friends in Europe.

    That's why I still think the future for most electric cars will end up being hydrogen, not battery power - though with advancements like these battery may be a higher percentage, especially if you could go somewhere just one day a week to spend a half hour charging.

    --
    "There is more worth loving than we have strength to love." - Brian Jay Stanley
  20. Re:That's not what 10-fold means by newcastlejon · · Score: 3, Informative

    p>10-fold = (2^10)*original capacity. 1024*100 percent increase is a 102,400% improvement.

    That's not what tenfold means. Saying something increases tenfold is the same as saying ten times (10x or 1000%).

    --
    If God forks the Universe every time you roll a die, he'd better have a damned good memory.
  21. Re:Compact Florescents would like a word by ledow · · Score: 4, Informative

    Fuck knows what shit it is that you're buying, but there's a CF replacement bulb in every socket in my house and I've literally never changed one.

    The outdoors one is on from dusk to 11pm all year round and is a CF. Still going.

    In fact, all that's happened is that I've started replacing the CFs with LED lights - and same thing there. Not one in the bin yet. In fact I've still got a box of 20 LED bulbs which are just waiting for the CFs to die but I don't get up on a chair to change them unless they do and NOT ONE has. In the same time, I've replaced 12 halogens and about 7 incandescents.

    And I'm using the cheapest thing on Amazon that I can buy in bulk and is supplied in a direct-replacement for an existing bulb-shape.

    Hell, I even replaced all the tiny little high-power halogens that were popular in light fittings with bigger-but-same-output LEDs that take 1/50th the power.

    I honestly don't know what junk you're using or what's wrong with your house electrics, but CF's do what they claim, and so do LEDs.

  22. Why not concerntrate development on primary batter by somename · · Score: 1

    Maybe it's not necessarily easier to develop higher density primary batteries as supposed to rechargeable ones, but it might not be a bad idea to approach density problem from a couple different approaches. Once batteries can approach 2-3 kwh/kg, 3-4 banks of say 10kg battery packs should be fairly easy to swap, negating charging problems. 30-40 kg battery packs should give similar range to gas burning cars, and they should be fairly easy to build out distribution network using existing gas stations. Of course efficient recycling also should be worked out.

  23. Re:I'll hold out for molecular distortion batterie by Vadim+Makarov · · Score: 1

    I'd like to have the physical switch. Too bad no mainstream handset is going to include one. So, tape over battery contacts will have to do.

    --
    17779 eligible voters in a district, 17779 'vote' as one. This is Russia.
  24. Distance from New York to Denver in toothbrushes by khz6955 · · Score: 1

    "allowing electric cars to drive from New York to Denver without recharging."

    How many football pitches/swimming pools/toothbrushes is that equivalent to laid end to end?

  25. Not Practical by SuperKendall · · Score: 1

    You can't just handwave away the massive cost of proving a charger per parking space, nor even the cost of an outlet per parking space along with the electrical lines buried capable of having every single parking space drawing enough current to charge...

    Even if that were practical what exactly do you imagine will happen to someone's personal charging cables or equipment left unattended overnight. Thieves are taking copper pipe out of buildings with the water still on...

    --
    "There is more worth loving than we have strength to love." - Brian Jay Stanley
    1. Re:Not Practical by WalksOnDirt · · Score: 1

      A parking spot should be well under the cost of an apartment. Use aluminum instead of copper for the wiring, or once standardized, put in wireless charging.

      If your plumbing getting stolen is a problem you have bigger problems than I can handle. Move out if you can.

      --
      a,e,i,o,u and sometimes w and y (at be if of up cwm by)
  26. Show me by AndyKron · · Score: 1

    I keep hearing a lot but I don't see a lot.

  27. Re:I'll hold out for molecular distortion batterie by tsa · · Score: 1

    I'm getting pretty fed up with conspiracy idiots like you.

    --

    -- Cheers!

  28. Advertisement by prefec2 · · Score: 1

    Typical overconfident US advertising. The best part, the word could implies that it could also be zero. It won't be worse as in that case we would use present designs.

    Furthermore, 10 times longer is not precise. It could also indicate more charge discharge cycles. So they should have said, the capacity could be 10 times higher.

  29. Re:I want capsule apartments by pslytely+psycho · · Score: 1

    Ahh, the memories...
    I lived in a 1960 primer red GMC van in the Bay Area for just short of a year. My employer let me park and use the restrooms after hours (He got a bit of nighttime security out of it), we used memberships at the Y to shower.
    Unfortunately moved out of the area just as the tech boom really hit due to a personal tragedy.
    If I could of held onto the house another few years, I would have made a killing.....sigh....

    --
    Donald Trump, on a crusade to make Nixon look respectable
  30. Re:Compact Florescents would like a word by thegarbz · · Score: 1

    I seem to recall some time ago that Compact Florescent bulbs would be the future and last upwards of 5years. Since those initial promises I have yet to find a CF bulb that lasts any longer than a standard incandescent bulb.

    And they do last just fine. I'm going to say that either you're buying them from Aliexpress for 10c per pop (pun intended), or that you're putting them in fittings which concentrate heat around the electronics. Personally the only CFL that's failed on my was one I dropped while getting out of the car.

    Plus the CF bulbs are chock full of mercury ..... so you can't even throw them away tho I'm more than sure most people still do.... which makes them a small to medium scale environmental disaster.

    Can't wait to see how these next gen batteries manage to over promise and ultimately disappoint.

    If by chock full of mercury you mean 800micrograms, of which 70nanograms is in a gaseous phase then sure. If this troubles you don't ever eat fish as you will ingest the same dose of mercury if you eat a nice healthy tuna salad. Fish is CHOCK FULL of mercury by your definition and they are (a tasty) environmental disaster.

    There's no environmental disaster in CFLs. Even if you just throw them in the bin there's no environmental disaster. If however you take them to a hardware store for recycling they can recover approximately 100% of all the solid mercury in the glass and phosphor, and you can feel good about the environment while eating your healthy tuna salad.

  31. Re:I want capsule apartments by Applehu+Akbar · · Score: 1

    Japan has 'capsule hotels'. I figured they could be cheap housing for the poor. However, crime, and other social problems can become important when lots of poor are concentrated..

    The problem is that we don't have Japanese poor. I have seen public housing in Tokyo, same architecture as our own welfare housing, but it's all clean and well maintained.

  32. Re:Compact Florescents would like a word by sandmaninator · · Score: 1

    Well, I guess you've never bought bulbs from "Feit electric". I am a cheapskate and so, I've gone with the lowest-cost brand (Feit). Both their CFs AND LEDs fail after not much time. Mystery to me how they remain in business.

  33. Yup, better batteries are right around the corner. by gestalt_n_pepper · · Score: 1

    And always will be.

    --
    Please do not read this sig. Thank you.
  34. Re:Compact Florescents would like a word by ledow · · Score: 1

    Then it's nothing to do with the bulbs. If incandescents barely last a couple of months, you have bigger issues.

    I'd honestly suggest you get a whole house filter because you're just in a really bad shape, electrically. That's not the fault of any kind of bulb, and you're probably destroying all kinds of hardware.

    To be honest, a lighting circuit can generally be UPS'd quite easily and has more than one advantage (less bulbs blowing, and a backup lighting in the case of a blackout). If you replace with LEDs and UPS, you can probably run your lighting for a couple of days off even a cheap one.

    What you need to find is what's killing them, though, because that's damaging all kinds of stuff down the line. I'd suggest over-voltages and surges.

  35. Mystery solved by drew_kime · · Score: 1

    And I only have to reorder a few things.

    Mystery to me how they remain in business. ~~ I am a cheapskate and so, I've gone with the lowest-cost brand (Feit).

    People like you, that's how.

    --
    Nope, no sig
  36. Longer than? by BrendaEM · · Score: 1

    Another referenced comparison for the pile.

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    https://www.youtube.com/c/BrendaEM
    1. Re:Longer than? by BrendaEM · · Score: 1

      err, unreferenced.

      --
      https://www.youtube.com/c/BrendaEM
  37. Re:I'll hold out for molecular distortion batterie by Rick+Schumann · · Score: 1

    Well guess what, friend? It's not the 1950's anymore, and by the way the America you thought you grew up in? It never existed in the first place. The only difference today is that the too-nosy-for-their-own-good government types, and corporations, now have much better technology to help them stick their little brown noses into things that are none of their business, and most people are carrying it around with them 24/7/365. This is the world we live in now. There's still time to change it so we're not under a microscope every moment of every day, but that won't happen if everyone just sticks their heads in the sand and pretends it's not real.

  38. Battery Moore's law? [Re:I say BS] by Tablizer · · Score: 1

    There is no observed equivalent of Moore's Law for batteries. If there is, it's a rather shallow curve compared to chips. That may be great for the Class of 2150.

    --
    Table-ized A.I.