Police Request Amazon Echo Recordings For Homicide Investigation (cnet.com)

Tulsa_Time quotes a report from CNET: Amazon's Echo and Echo Dot are in millions of homes now, with holiday sales more than quadrupling from 2015. Always listening for its wake word, the breakthrough smart speakers boast seven microphones waiting to take and record your commands. Now, Arkansas police are hoping an Echo found at a murder scene in Bentonville can aid their investigation. [First reported by The Information, investigators filed search warrants to Amazon, requesting any recordings between November 21 and November 22, 2015, from James A. Bates, who was charged with murder after a man was strangled in a hot tub. While investigating, police noticed the Echo in the kitchen and pointed out that the music playing in the home could have been voice activated through the device. While the Echo records only after hearing the wake word, police are hoping that ambient noise or background chatter could have accidentally triggered the device, leading to some more clues. Amazon has not sent any recordings to the officers but did provide Bates' account information to authorities, according to court documents. The retailer giant said it doesn't release customer information without a "valid and binding legal demand." "Amazon objects to over-broad or otherwise inappropriate demands as a matter of course," the company said in a statement. Even without Amazon's help, police may be able to crack into the Echo, according to the warrant. Officers believe they can tap into the hardware on the smart speakers, which could "potentially include time stamps, audio files or other data."] Police also found a Nest thermostat, a Honeywell alarm system, wireless weather monitoring in the backyard and WeMo devices for lighting at the smart home crime scene. Officers have also seized an iPhone 6S, a Macbook Pro, a PlayStation 4 and three tablets in the investigation.

Comments

Bugs

[Anonymous Coward]

People intentionally bugging their own homes and paying a corporation for the privilege to do so.

Re:Bugs

[Anonymous Coward]

And it it is the Victim I am sure they are fine with it.
If it is the Murder, well I guess they should have been smarter.

Re:Bugs

[0100010001010011]

There are multiple self hosted solutions. Any old Mac has this for at least a decade. (Our old Snow Leopard Mini has it).

Jasper and Lucida.

Re:Bugs

[chispito]

Audio is only uploaded once the wake word is used. As it exclusively uses your home wifi, it is easy to test for and monitor this, unlike the phone you likely carry in your pocket.

Because when you say this

People intentionally bugging their own homes and paying a corporation for the privilege to do so.

I read this

I am irrationally scared of an Echo but not by the phone in my pocket.

Re:Bugs

[PraiseBob]

Do police regularly request cellular phone companies to provide recordings of ambient audio recorded by cellphones? In this example, the police DO treat an Echo differently from a cell phone, and the DO expect it to have stored audio that might aid their investigation, because unlike a cell phone, the echo records everything when active.

Law enforcement treats the objects differently, so seems perfectly rational for consumers to notice the difference.

Re:Bugs

[thegarbz]

Yeah man those are TOOOOTALY the same thing. TOOOTALY.

Re:Bugs

[thegarbz]

In this example, the police DO treat an Echo differently from a cell phone

Well the police are actually very consistent in all of this. They regularly request things that don't exist and aren't possible. It would be interesting how this would stand up in court given that asking Siri where to hide a body used to be something people did for shits and giggles.

Re:Bugs

[Anonymous Coward]

don't forget uploaded to the cloud.

Re:Bugs

[Anonymous Coward]

Audio is only uploaded once the wake word is used. As it exclusively uses your home wifi, it is easy to test for and monitor this, unlike the phone you likely carry in your pocket.

That isn't much comfort to me because I don't know what it's uploading. Plenty of keyloggers will record all of the keystrokes you type offline, then upload them in bursts when an internet connection is detected. How do I know Alexa isn't recording every time it hears the word "kill" or "heroin" and then uploading those clips in bursts the next time I ask Alexa to re-order toilet paper? If I'm sniffing the network, I won't see it uploading anything at the wrong time, but I don't know what it's uploading when it hears the wake word.

Re:Bugs

[ShanghaiBill]

Do police regularly request cellular phone companies to provide recordings of ambient audio recorded by cellphones?

Irrelevant. This is not about how stupid the police are, but about what Amazon records. They do not record "ambient audio". The device itself only listens for the "wake word", which is "Alexa" by default. Only the sentence directly after that wake word is recorded and transmitted, and this is relatively easy to verify.

Being paranoid about Echo and not your cellphone is irrational.

Re:Bugs

[hawguy]

Do police regularly request cellular phone companies to provide recordings of ambient audio recorded by cellphones? In this example, the police DO treat an Echo differently from a cell phone, and the DO expect it to have stored audio that might aid their investigation, because unlike a cell phone, the echo records everything when active.

Law enforcement treats the objects differently, so seems perfectly rational for consumers to notice the difference.

How would you know what the police do with cell phones? Law enforcement even hides whether or not they use a stingray at all, and there is very little information about what the devices are and what they are capable of - maybe they really can remotely turn on your phone's microphone and record what you're saying? And all of these secrecy comes not just with the Justice Department's blessing, but at the outright request of the Justice department.

...The documents also discuss the possibility of flashing a phone’s firmware “so that you can intercept conversations using a suspect’s cell phone as a bug...

https://www.wired.com/2015/10/...

Re:Bugs

[chispito]

Do police regularly request cellular phone companies to provide recordings of ambient audio recorded by cellphones?

I expect once the police realize there is nothing there, they will not regularly make this type of request, either.

Re:Bugs

[hawguy]

Audio is only uploaded once the wake word is used. As it exclusively uses your home wifi, it is easy to test for and monitor this, unlike the phone you likely carry in your pocket.

That isn't much comfort to me because I don't know what it's uploading. Plenty of keyloggers will record all of the keystrokes you type offline, then upload them in bursts when an internet connection is detected. How do I know Alexa isn't recording every time it hears the word "kill" or "heroin" and then uploading those clips in bursts the next time I ask Alexa to re-order toilet paper? If I'm sniffing the network, I won't see it uploading anything at the wrong time, but I don't know what it's uploading when it hears the wake word.

If you're worried about it, capture packets 24/7 from the device, compare traffic on days when you use it to days when you don't and you'll see that it's not sending enough data to be actively monitoring your conversations.

Re: Bugs

[Anonymous Coward]

I never used Siri's suggestions. Just seemed too,obvious.

Re:Bugs

[ShanghaiBill]

It would be interesting how this would stand up in court given that asking Siri where to hide a body used to be something people did for shits and giggles.

Bayesian statistics could help: If you ask Siri that question when no family member has just been murdered, it is likely a joke. Otherwise, there is a conditional probability that it is not.

Re:Bugs

[p0p0]

Why do you assume that because they are requesting the info means that Amazon has it? The police can subpoena me for the identity of JFK's real killer and I won't be able to tell them no matter how firmly they ask.

The Association wouldn't allow me to say anyway. That's what the brain-chip was for.

Re: Bugs

[Anonymous Coward]

So they were asking Amazon' Echo or Apple's Siri?
LOL ðY"

Re: Bugs

[Anonymous Coward]

Yes they secretly turn on thousands of phones....lolllllllllll

Re: Bugs

[Anonymous Coward]

They are looking for a murderer and every lead is important.
So you prefer them to look the other way and let the murderer off the hook?

Re:Bugs

[ArylAkamov]

maybe they really can remotely turn on your phone's microphone and record what you're saying?

Maybe? That's been happening for over 10 years. It's possible even with the phone turned off.

https://yro.slashdot.org/story...

Makes me wonder if this is why so few smartphones let you remove the battery.

Re: Bugs

[Anonymous Coward]

You sure?
Show me a link to verify from Amazon what you just said.

Re:Bugs

[Anonymous Coward]

My phone company doesn't use 'ai' to process all the words spoken like the echo and then store that shit in the user-invisible cloud for an eternity. The echo certainly does. So maybe you should get your hearing checked or get a broader and more informed perspective.

Re:Bugs

[Anonymous Coward]

Yes the phone company does do that.

Re:Bugs

[Anonymous Coward]

>I read this
>I am irrationally scared of an Echo but not by the phone in my pocket.

The fear is not irrational, and it is a leap of logic to say that the reasonable fear of the Echo doesn't extend to the phone.

Re: Bugs

[ewanm89]

And after the neural network has analysed it and extracted the command, the raw audio data may well be ditched other than the command it recognised with a success/error response code. There may be no recordings available for the police at all.

Re: Bugs

[hawguy]

You sure?
Show me a link to verify from Amazon what you just said.

Why would you trust a link from Amazon? But, If you're going to trust Amazon, then here is "proof" that the Echo only sends audio shortly after it hears the wake word:

https://www.amazon.com/gp/help...

When Amazon Echo or Echo Dot detect the wake word, when you press the action button on top of the devices, or when you press and hold your remote's microphone button, the light ring around the top of your Amazon Echo turns blue, to indicate that Amazon Echo is streaming audio to the Cloud. When you use the wake word, the audio stream includes a fraction of a second of audio before the wake word, and closes once your question or request has been processed

If you don't trust Amazon, then why do you want to see a link from Amazon confirming that if the device doesn't send data, then it's not sending audio? Surely Amazon is not going to tell you that they use the top-secret invisible NSA access points to send data, so you won't be able to detect it.

Re:Bugs

[iggymanz]

yes, I notice you use a personal computer too.

capturing and recording all that data as you watch porn and jack off.

I'm scared of my pc for that reason, I better surf up some good jacking porn to calm me down.

Re: Bugs

[ShanghaiBill]

And after the neural network has analysed it and extracted the command, the raw audio data may well be ditched other than the command it recognised with a success/error response code.

I don't think anything is kept locally, but I don't think all the data is ditched on the server. If I say "Alexa, play some music" it will play something I like, such as Willie Nelson or Waylon Jennings. But if my daughter says the same thing, it will play something she likes, such as Bruno Mars. So it is obviously saving enough info to recognize the voice and preferences of individual family members.

Re: Bugs

[MrPeach]

I worked for Nuance, and they kept *all* post keyword phrases on their server. At least on the project I was working on. Whether they do this with their smart phone apps I really don't know. And whether Amazon does the same I really can't say, unless Amazon it's actually using Nuance...

Re: Bugs

[MrPeach]

The odds of anything being left on the home device is exactly zero...

Re:Bugs

[Anonymous Coward]

"for at least a decade"...are you kidding? Macs have had this since the early 90's, way before Mac OS X was ever released.

Re:Bugs

[ckatko]

While you can't easily prove your phone ISN'T sending data, you can certainly prove when it IS sending data.

Simply take out the SIM card, turn on WiFi, and monitor the connections. I'd imagine many apps/hacks/vulnerabilities aren't designed to automatically disable if the cellular radio is off. So that'd logically leave you with ones that are, and ones that depend specifically on a cellular modem. (Fun fact: Cellular modems can actually have root file access to your phone, an "Red Flag!"-level vulnerability.)

--- Citation for last point:

http://www.darkreading.com/mob...

----------------- Secondary post:

Lastly, come to think of it. I wonder if you could design a "Communication LED" like modems and ethernet hubs/cards have. A blinking LED any time the PHY layer is sending data. However, I don't know enough about the GSM/CDMA protocol to know how often a cellphone "actively" sends data (announcement to look for potential cell towers), or if it's passive in nature.

A quick Google seems to favor the passive route (and battery conservation sure sounds like the right idea for a protocol.)

https://www.quora.com/How-ofte...

This would certainly be outside of "most" people's abilities. Cellphones are a pain-in-the-ass to open without damaging, and you'd have to identify the PHY layer and I would imagine you can't simply attach an LED to a GSM antenna. But the point remains. For a donor phone and a (hardware) hacker with a free weekend, one could likely build a phone that lights up an LED whenever it sends data. And logically, you've then made a phone that will tell you if entire ranges of apps and Android features "call home."

Perhaps I'm overthinking it. An even better method (if you had the cash) would be to create a fake cellphone tower ("base station") that forwards back to the internet and gives you a packet log. OpenBTS (open base station) exists already. Then you'd be able to see many layers of the stack and not just a transmit LED, to help identify what is talking and where it's going.

Re: Bugs

[Anonymous Coward]

how stupid do you have to be to state that the chances of "anything" is "exactly zero"

your chances of being that stupid is greater than zero

Re: Bugs

[Anonymous Coward]

probably closer to 100%

Re:Bugs

[Anonymous Coward]

i'm sure you would have no problem with them if they subpoena all your records (in all formats) searching for files related to JFK's assassination

12 years later, they return them, nothing found, no harm done

Re: Bugs

[Ralgha]

I don't have an Echo, and know nothing at all about them, so I wonder how easy it actually is to verify this? I assume it uses an encrypted connection to transmit the command, how do you know that's all it transmits?

Re: Bugs

[Anonymous Coward]

additionally, those Echo's can't be hacked, their unhackable, can't be modified, only work as advertised.

Re: Bugs

[ShanghaiBill]

1. They have sold millions, so I figure somebody has checked.
2. If they were actually recording everything, a lot of people would have to be in on the secret.
3. I assume that Amazon is run by greedy bastards, and they wouldn't build a lot of expensive extra capacity into a device if there was no profit in it for them.
4. If they were spying, and got caught, it would have terrible effects on their reputation, and cost them a lot of customers.

Re: Bugs

[dromgodis]

1. They have sold millions, so I figure somebody has checked.

It is hard to check encrypted data in an unknown format emanating from closed hard- and software. The can hasn't been around very long. And the software may get updated anytime, e.g. after an audit.

2. If they were actually recording everything, a lot of people would have to be in on the secret.

Perhaps. But the processing can be partitioned so that one hand doesn't know what the other does. People in the collection department think they collect data that will get destroyed once the training algorithms are done with them. The storage people think they get "some data" and their task is to store and index it. The algorithm training people are just happy to get a lot of data and don't care where it comes from and whether it gets deleted.

3. I assume that Amazon is run by greedy bastards, and they wouldn't build a lot of expensive extra capacity into a device if there was no profit in it for them.

If they are greedy bastards (which I would also assume), wouldn't they make the most of what they already have built?

4. If they were spying, and got caught, it would have terrible effects on their reputation, and cost them a lot of customers.

... for a couple of weeks. Then it will be forgotten or ignored by the majority.

Re:Bugs

[Anonymous Coward]

Nice that you exclude the possibility of:

I am rationally scared of an Echo and by the phone in my pocket.

Heres the rationality:
Back doors that change the recording mode of a phone are know to exist and are used by law enforcement, chinese routers phone home all the time, devices connected permanently are constantly shown to have poor security and joined to a botnet.

May be it's you with your fingers in your ears going "lala la lala, I can't here you"

Re:Bugs

[Kiuas]

and the DO expect it to have stored audio that might aid their investigation

The summary says:

While the Echo records only after hearing the wake word, police are hoping that ambient noise or background chatter could have accidentally triggered the device, leading to some more clues.

So no, they're not expecting it to have anything on it, they're just checking to make sure in case it was accidentally activated.

To me, this is no different than them making sure the background noise of a recorded call doesn't contain anything useful for the investigation.

Re: Bugs

[Anonymous Coward]

This is why devices like Echo will never be allowed anywhere near where I live. Bad enough the Amazon app keeps bugging me to talk to it despite having had its permission to access the microphone removed, which I highly recommend for any voice activated phone app.

Sure this is a murder and maybe this longshot will help, but of course this is just the excuse. They'll be trying to use those things to catch people smoking pot and doing other harmless stuff soon enough if they can.

Re: Bugs

[Anonymous Coward]

Upload all audio. Run through Nexidia software to convert to phonetic text. Save text, discard audio. Storage requirements low.

Re: Bugs

[trevc]

So are you saying that after somebody purchases and installs an Echo, from the first time they utter the word Alexa it records everything until you unplug it? What did you do at Nuance, clean the toilets?

Re: Bugs

[kilfarsnar]

Yes they secretly turn on thousands of phones....lolllllllllll

Incredulity is not an argument. I also do not think they are secretly turning on thousands of cell phone microphones. But that has no bearing on whether or not they are doing it.

Re:Bugs

[networkBoy]

dunno, but it is why my house has one room with no cell signal.
It was by happy accident, but one I don't care to correct.

Re:Bugs

[Anonymous Coward]

Cell phones are certainly more vulnerable. I wouldn't be so quick to trust these Amazon Echos though. All it takes is a little malware and now it can record and send whenever and whatever it wants. Given that the device contacts the internet to do various tasks, it seems possible that during such activities is could get infected, especially if people design an attack specifically against these devices.

Moral of the story: don't trust any connected device with a microphone. Corollary: don't trust any connected device with a speaker.

Re: Bugs

[ewanm89]

Audio data, or just a log of the voice recognition output? Those are 2 very different things.

Grab much?

[Anonymous Coward]

Officers have also seized an iPhone 6S, a Macbook Pro, a PlayStation 4 and three tablets in the investigation.

They took the PS4? Really? WTF do they think they'll get from that? Me thinks some officer wasn't able to afford a PS4 for their kid even on boxing week.

Re:Grab much?

[Anonymous Coward]

Don't Forget the Voice Command TV

Re:Grab much?

[Anonymous Coward]

its christmas for some one.

Re:Grab much?

[houstonbofh]

Someone in command said "Grab everything" and blind compliance is less risk then thinking. Especially if the boss is tech illiterate...

Re:Grab much?

[bugs2squash]

my dad has a voice command TV, it listens to him yell at politicians and hippies, I don't think it actually activates anything, but he feels better about it. Improved technology would allow activation by throwing things at it.

Re:Grab much?

[Obfuscant]

my dad has a voice command TV, it listens to him yell at politicians and hippies, I don't think it actually activates anything,

I have for sale at a reasonable price a "voice command rock". It listens when you yell about politicians and hippies, doesn't actually activate anything, AND you don't need to worry that it is secretly recording your political outbursts for later corrective counseling. Unlike the need to trust your local librarian that they do not keep records of what books you borrow, or your phone company recording your calls, or viewing records from your set top cable box, there truly is no record of anything kept by this VCR.

There is, however, an embedded identification should you install this VCR someplace it should not be, such as by sending it into a local police station through a plate glass window.

Patent pending.

Re:Grab much?

[Archangel Michael]

We have a system of supposed checks n balances, and a proper Search Warrant in a murder investigation. I am not sure what anyone is complaining about (no, I am not saying you are complaining). The whole "Grab everything" excuse is acceptable here, in this case. It may not be worthy in other cases, but in this one, I have no problem with.

Re:Grab much?

[Calydor]

In this day and age the warrant likely says "Grab anything electronic, we'll sort it at the evidence cage."

Re: Grab much?

[Anonymous Coward]

A really smart TV would be more interactive and throw things back.

Re:Grab much?

[Anonymous Coward]

PS4 friends list allows them to sapina Sony for logs. Warrents need to be specific when they're sent to higher class "citizens" who can afford lawyers.

Re:Grab much?

[Anonymous Coward]

sapina?

Re:Grab much?

[Cederic]

Subpoena. It's not that easy to spell.

Never saw this coming

[IMightB]

Color me right, I never would've though that this would happen. this is why I won't have this sort of device in my home. Soon, they'll asking for all sorts of info...

Re:Never saw this coming

[Crashmarik]

Oh just don't indulge in thoughtcrime and everything will be doubleplusgood.

Re:Never saw this coming

[Anonymous Coward]

You got an android phone? It has the ability to listen when the phone is off to hear you say "OK Google".

Re:Never saw this coming

[Anonymous Coward]

Soon, they'll asking for all sorts of info...

The problem that I have is that they won't be asking for info, they will be EXPECTING it, without a warrant of course.

Re:Never saw this coming

[Anonymous Coward]

1. This is why you use Full disk encryption on EVERY DEVICE you own. If it cant be made to run FDE, then pass on it and get something else that can.

2. Use PGP at every opportunity.

3. Use Tor and tails on a burner laptop at random coffee shops.

Re:Never saw this coming

[Elfich47]

I expect there to be a follow up story in the next couple of weeks: Cops vexxed by fact that amazon isn't recording everything and try to force amazon to release "secret recordings" they feel that amazon should have.

Re:Never saw this coming

[zlives]

did i miss the amazon denial of recordings?

Re: Never saw this coming

[Anonymous Coward]

Does that prevent you from beeing murdered?

Re:Never saw this coming

[shubus]

Well I saw this coming. First it was those Samsung smart TV's listening and forwarding a vast amount of personal data to their severs even when supposedly disabled. Now we've got Amazon doing basically the same thing. I won't have these gadgets in my home. If you value your privacy, you won't either. That said, I still filter all intern traffic through pfSense and block any potential anything suspicious.

Re:Never saw this coming

[houstonbofh]

Well, not a warrant you see or get to protest... It will be served to Amazon.

Re:Never saw this coming

[houstonbofh]

Me too. Which is why that Windows VM I occasionally use keeps popping up with "No Internet" when the Internet is fine. Just no Microsoft until I turn it on.

Re:Never saw this coming

[Nonesuch]

You got an android phone? It has the ability to listen when the phone is off to hear you say "OK Google".

When the phone is off? Either you are confusing "locked" or "asleep" with "Off", or intentionally spreading FUD.

Most newer Android phones implement "OK Google" hotword detection using hardware, meaning that a dedicated low-power chip listens for the hotword to wake up the audio processor, but is not constantly recording audio to storage in order to analyze it for the hotword.

Amazon Echo and Apple products have their own mechanism for hotword detection. Some of these do record a continuous multi-second rolling buffer, others do it in a dedicated chip. It's not just a Google thing. In any case, the always-on listening buffer isn't stored, but some devices will upload what it thinks is a query or command, an audio stream containing all the audio after it detects the hotword.

So I guess the moral of the story is that if you are being strangled in a hot tub, you could do worse than yelling "Hey Siri! Call the police!" with your final breath.

Re:Never saw this coming

[Elfich47]

Amazon only records several seconds after the wake word. Other than that the device just sits there dumb waiting for the wake word. So there isn't going to be much chance that there is an audio recording of the murder occurring.

If the echo actually recorded everything in its hearing range and sent it up to the mother ship you would see the packet traffic, there would be a significant drag on your bandwidth and if you are charged by the megabyte your billing would jump through the roof the moment it was turned on (assuming something like 1 meg/minute of audio would give 1440 megs per day in usage).

Re:Never saw this coming

[tentenone]

Only if that function is enabled, which it isn't by default

Re:Never saw this coming

[Elfich47]

Read Amazon's privacy statement on the echo. You can request that all of the audio data collected on your account be deleted. Even easier-use the Alexa app to delete all of your audio content.

And before you ask - why don't they keep it anyway and just say "yup we're deleting it"? Because if the trust that had to be built up for people to agree to have this device in their house is violated (ex employee shows logs of all data being retained against users wishes), people will throw the devices out in a heart beat because of the violation of trust.

Re:Never saw this coming

[zlives]

sorry didn't mean all audio, maybe just the pertinent audio around the keyword. does amazon store that info perpetually?

all audio would definitely be much more traceable.

Re:Never saw this coming

[Obfuscant]

So I guess the moral of the story is that if you are being strangled in a hot tub, you could do worse than yelling "Hey Siri! Call the police!" with your final breath.

Except for the fact that I have (allegedly) turned off the voice activation for my phone, I would expect that it would respond along the lines "My name is Okay Google, thank you very much" were I to yell that. So no, there isn't much worse I could do than yell "Hey Siri", unless I thought the killer was carrying a Siri-enabled iPhone and his Siri would obey my command and rat him out.

"Hey Siri, ignore any cries for help or screams of pain for the next fifteen minutes" might be something that Apple uses to trigger a recording.

Re:Never saw this coming

[waspleg]

You face a bigger problem with proliferation. There's no way to hide when everyone else is doing it. Just ask Facebook.

Re:Never saw this coming

[E-Lad]

No idea why the cops would even need to ask Amazon. All they need to do to find them is look in the dungeons below a particular pizza joint in Washington DC.

Re:Never saw this coming

[vel-ex-tech]

I assume sibling was being hopeful that they do have a warrant, but I'm more pessimistic.

How long until enough people have one of these things that not having one is a sign that you're up to no good?

"Your honor, we find that there is are no log entires in MannaMegaCorp's holographic memory as to the whereabouts of the defendent at 9:54 PM on Caturday, Smarch 32nd. This proves that the defendant was willfully evading the Eyes. Only a guilty man would elude the Eyes."

. ...Hmm... now might be a good time to buy up a country place nobody would know about, perhaps a farm...

Re:Never saw this coming

[shubus]

Now does anyone really believe Amazon will delete that data? I'm sure it will be "deleted" until some kind of warrant and served. Then low and behold, they find a backup of that data. Ha! I'm sure Samsung and the other "listeners" do likewise. Guys, you need to look for this stuff as it enters and leaves your router and block it.

Re:Never saw this coming

[Will_Malverson]

LPT: If you're being murdered, tell Alexa.

Alexa: My brother in law Jerry is here and has a knife and is stabbing me! Ow!

Re:Never saw this coming

[thegarbz]

Color me right, I never would've though that this would happen. this is why I won't have this sort of device in my home. Soon, they'll asking for all sorts of info...

They ask for all sorts of info anyway, even when the device doesn't store it. Not having an Amazon Echo won't stop the police asking for very stupid things if you are a murder suspect.

Re: Never saw this coming

[Anonymous Coward]

More entertaing is the ability of the camera to take a photograph automatically when you say "cheese" or "whiskey".

Re:Never saw this coming

[Elfich47]

If you activate the Echo with the key word, the command you give it is store indefintiely- unless you request for a data deletion (from the echo app).

Re:Never saw this coming

[Elfich47]

Having spoken to Amazon employees they take the privacy issue VERY seriously. You can believe the conspiracy theory on the subject that there are super-secret backups.

Re: Never saw this coming

[Anonymous Coward]

If you harp on it constantly, it actually makes being murdered a lot more likely.

Re:Never saw this coming

[WaffleMonster]

If the echo actually recorded everything in its hearing range and sent it up to the mother ship you would see the packet traffic, there would be a significant drag on your bandwidth and if you are charged by the megabyte your billing would jump through the roof the moment it was turned on (assuming something like 1 meg/minute of audio would give 1440 megs per day in usage).

Voice codec traditionally used by cell phones and VoIP average on the order of 1k/sec. This is 60k/minute, 3.6 mb/hr, 86 mb/day or 2.5 gb/month. It wouldn't be noticed by most broadband subscribers. This not counting deployment of silence detection or significantly more complex codecs enabling you to do many times better than 86mb/day. Combined with batch operation that sent a week or more at a time users could be left completely clueless without reverse engineering/persistent packet capture.

This isn't to say it is actually being done only the premise it couldn't be done without tipping off the average user who would "notice" is sadly not true.

Today murder investigation, tomorrow evidence of banging "Alexa" uncovered during divorce investigation and day after that determination of "no expectation of privacy" within your own home because "technology".

Re:Never saw this coming

[hawguy]

Only if that function is enabled, which it isn't by default

If you're worried that manufacturers are spying on you when they say they are not (like when Amazon says that the Echo only listens after you say "Alexa"), then why would you trust that turning off the listening feature really turns it off? If they are going to outright lie to you about spying, they aren't going to let a user visible "on/off" control get in their way.

Re: Never saw this coming

[Anonymous Coward]

Amazon is not Google. Amazon takes trust issues incredibly seriously because you are their customer, not their product. Not going to claim the company is perfect, but if they say something in their privacy policy to end users, they mean it and they stand to lose more by losing trust than they do by illegally retaining info they promised to delete.

Re:Never saw this coming

[Anonymous Coward]

"Your honor, we find that there is are no log entires in MannaMegaCorp's holographic memory as to the whereabouts of the defendent at 9:54 PM on Caturday, Smarch 32nd. This proves that the defendant was willfully evading the Eyes. Only a guilty man would elude the Eyes."

I think this has already been done. I remember a case a year or so back where the police could not track a suspects location because he left his phone at home on the charger and they were trying to claim that proved he was guilty because "No one goes out without their phone". Though I can't seem to find reference to that case in Google ATM.

Re:Never saw this coming

[Anonymous Coward]

Only if that function is enabled, which it isn't by default

False, it is enabled by default. I know this for a fact, because one day it triggered, surprising me, and I then had to look up how to turn it off.

And even after turning it off, it still triggered, but I think that was because of a widget on my home screen. Very annoying to go into settings, explicitly turn off "Ok Google", and then have a widget ignore those settings.

Re:Never saw this coming

[Anonymous Coward]

Oh just don't indulge in thoughtcrime and everything will be doubleplusgood.

If we were all sufficiently security paranoid, we would put our cell phones in a metal box with a charging pad/cable when we are at home and rely on COTS type phone for home conversations. There is less ability to turn them into a spying device. Of course you should also turn it off..

For the love of privacy, don't connect a "smart tv" to the internet. Seriously, just don't. A camera, potentially a microphone, plus an insecure non updated OS plugged directly into your internet connection, yah, you don't want that. Buy a roku or something if you need netflix.

Re:Never saw this coming

[shubus]

Better safe than sorry. I don't give such devices a home. Nor any iOT devices either. And certainly not those internet connected security cams. I am finding great comfort in limiting my connectivity..

Re:Never saw this coming

[thegarbz]

Did anyone ask?

One thing I did miss is all the evidence of the device constantly streaming data to foreign servers instead of just triggering on a wake word locally and then recording the rest just like Siri and Google.

Re:Never saw this coming

[Anonymous Coward]

LPT: If you're being murdered, tell Alexa.

Alexa: My brother in law Jerry is here and has a knife and is stabbing me! Ow!

What happens when they say something like this on TV and real cops come? Shall we invent a fake name for TV like 555?

Re:Never saw this coming

[Anonymous Coward]

Oh, you live in a world where we on the internet are so very smart, and cops are easily confused. Ok.

Re:Never saw this coming

[Obfuscant]

Not having an Amazon Echo won't stop the police asking for very stupid things if you are a murder suspect.

Why is it stupid to see a device that is designed to send audio across the net and ask for any audio that it might have sent across the net? Especially when they are trying to solve a murder.

Not too long ago people would have thought it was stupid for law enforcement to ask for cell phone position data for lost people from the carriers, especially if the lost person had a cell phone and could call out for help in the first place. But cell phone position data is becoming the main resource for search and rescue and saving lives, because even a phone that shows "no service" for voice can provide enough data to the carrier for them to locate it pretty well. The chances of someone surviving are much much greater when the search area collapses from tens or hundreds of square miles down to a box 1/4 mile on a side.

A few months ago there was a search for a missing group of 3 people. Ground and aircraft resources were called out, and the cell data was requested. Air search of that location saw nothing. Then, three days later, when the people who were trying not to be found got hungry and decided to come out, they were found -- exactly where the call phone data said they were.

We get new technology all the time. What some people think is stupid to ask for may be easy to get and very valuable.

Re: Never saw this coming

[MrPeach]

I carry out all my nefarious activities using a virtual machine via PIA VPN. I reccon I'm pretty safe.

Re: Never saw this coming

[MrPeach]

Where the he'll did you come up with that? Manufacturers including special hardware for one application? What have you been smoking?

No hardware maker is going to include special hardware for such a questionable purpose since It increases bom, and unless it's absolutely necessary they'll prefer to do it in software.

But back to your claim... Have you looked at the chip specs for any of the popular Android chipsets? Found any sign of such capability? Looked at the Android hardware requirements? Seen any such hardware mentioned? Looked at AOSP source? Any sign of that there?

Well don't bother, it only exists in your fevered imagination.

Re:Never saw this coming

[Anonymous Coward]

Confusing. I meant locked with the screen off.

Re:Never saw this coming

[Anonymous Coward]

Including butt-prints from the office copy machine. I no longer work there, ahem.

Re: Never saw this coming

[Anonymous Coward]

If you google "speech recognition chip", you get hits like this from 2013:
http://www.sensory.com/worlds-lowest-power-speech-recognition-solution-mobile-devices-now-available/

Turns out there was a Sensory NLP-5x low-power speech recognition chip just like GP describes in the Galaxy S4. It served a bunch of other functions as well, including MP3 playback, because it could do those things using less power than firing up the main CPU.

I don't know the specifics of any other smartphones, but look how easy it was for me to find that out! I'll bet you could google it yourself if you wanted to stop being incorrect.

Re:Never saw this coming

[thegarbz]

Why is it stupid to see a device that is designed to send audio across the net and ask for any audio that it might have sent across the net? Especially when they are trying to solve a murder.

Depends on what they are asking for. If they know that the person said "Alexia, where should I hide the body." Then yes. If not then they are stupid.

Not too long ago people would have thought it was stupid for law enforcement to ask for cell phone position data for lost people from the carriers, especially if the lost person had a cell phone and could call out for help in the first place.

Err no, no one ever thought this was stupid. It was known from the very earliest mobile phone implementations that carriers knew where the phones were.

On the flip side here it looks like "A microphone, clearly it records everything so let's get a warrant for it" which is absurd and stupid.

Re:Never saw this coming

[SuiteSisterMary]

Depends on what they are asking for. If they know that the person said "Alexia, where should I hide the body." Then yes. If not then they are stupid.

How do they know, without checking?

All of the arguments I've seen here are boiling down to 'it's stupid.' I don't think so. I've had Siri trigger while listening to audiobooks or podcasts that haven't said anything I'd interpret as 'hey Siri.' It's not out of the realms of possibility that something might have gotten triggered, and an incredibly small chance is better than not checking.

And in a few years, who knows? Maybe when being murdered, people sill start shouting 'Hey Siri, I'm being murdered! Hey Alexa, I'm being murdered! OK Google, I'm being murdered!'

Re:Never saw this coming

[thegarbz]

It's not out of the realms of possibility that something might have gotten triggered

Shit police are relying on this kind of blind hope? Man law enforcement is dead in this country.

Re:Never saw this coming

[zlives]

my assumption is that if a packet capture saw continued stream even when nothing should be sent, some one would have noticed it by now.

Re:Never saw this coming

[SuiteSisterMary]

If by 'blind hope,' you mean 'tracking down all possible leads, then sure.

And really, what does this cost the police? They send a request to Amazon saying 'please send any recordings that happen to exist for this account for this timeframe,' and Amazon sends back either a) any recordings that happen to exist, or b) a note saying that there aren't any.

I really fail to see the problem here.

Re:Never saw this coming

[Obfuscant]

Depends on what they are asking for. If they know that the person said "Alexia, where should I hide the body." Then yes. If not then they are stupid.

No.

Err no, no one ever thought this was stupid.

Err, yes, some people did.

It was known from the very earliest mobile phone implementations that carriers knew where the phones were.

First, no, not to the accuracy that they currently are, second, most people think the phone actually has to have a GPS turned on for this to happen, and third, early AMPS services did not need to have the location accuracy that current LTE services do. (LTE data rates actually adjust based on distance to the device.) This information you claim was ubiquitous actually wasn't. Users didn't then, and most still don't, know anything about this. To the vast majority of users these things are magic. Keep in mind, you are in a forum that is supposed to be "news for nerds". That is a hint that you might know a bit more about technology than most people, so using what you know as a baseline for "most people" is just ridiculous.

Remember, it was well into the cell phone revolution that people got upset because they learned that everything they said could be picked up on a television set! This is a PHONE! It's PRIVATE! Uhh, no, it's RADIO and it is ANALOG, and it is transmitted in the CLEAR. That doesn't make those people stupid, it makes them ignorant. The stupid people were the legislators who ignored the intelligent people who said "it's radio, what do you expect?" and then created laws to cripple radio receivers instead of force encryption on the signals.

On the flip side here it looks like "A microphone, clearly it records everything so let's get a warrant for it" which is absurd and stupid.

No, it is perhaps ignorant of the technical details of the specific system, but it is neither absurd nor stupid to think a device that is designed to send audio across the net might actually have done so. Not "clearly it records", but "clearly it CAN record", which is quite true, and something that those awfully stupid people who have smart TVs that listen in to their conversations didn't think of. It turns out the "stupid" people who thought "my TV can listen to me" were the smart ones; the stupid ones were those who believed the corporate statements and thought it was stupid to believe that a device with a microphone connected to the internet might be sending overheard audio off to the corporate masters.

For example, it would be stupid to assume that a device that can decode one trigger word ("Alexa!") could not be programmed to decode another ("HELP ME"), especially considering the growing market for elderly and other remote assistance devices. Do you think Amazon is ignorant of the market for services to people who could use a device that responds to "help me, I've fallen and can't get up", especially since that meme has been installed in the marketplace as the quintessential cry for help? They may not have completed the testing or gotten all the legal liability issues covered, but it may be in the devices they are selling now. Do you know they haven't? How do you expect the police, who are not technical experts, to know they haven't?

And before people start telling me how easy it is to test for this, let me say this. I don't care. I don't have one, I don't plan on having one. And it is irrelevant if I, or anyone else here, can test for that, because the police don't have that ability and they don't need it. They can ask for any data the device has sent back to Amazon and let Amazon deal with it. It is not stupid or absurd to ask, given the technology involved.

Re:Never saw this coming

[Obfuscant]

And really, what does this cost the police?

Nothing. And what thegarbz is forgetting, and I almost forgot about, is that the alleged killer is saying he was asleep during the time of the murder. And he's forgetting that Alexa does record when it is spoken to.

It is clearly possible that the killer made a request of Alexa during the time he claims he was asleep. Once you have a time-saving convenience tool you are likely to use it out of force of habit. Killers are stupid enough to google for info about how to do it right even when there is a browser cache and google record of the searches; what is to say that this guy didn't ask for info on how to get rid of a body or blood from Alexa? Or what the weather was, or even "Alexa, what time is it?"

A recording of the suspect's voice at 2:12AM asking Alexa what time it is would be crippling to his already lame alibi. That may be all the police are looking for.

Re:Never saw this coming

[artgriego]

Forget whether they're storing everything. Remember when Amazon insisted Alexa only **hears** you when you say the wake word?! http://www.youtube.com/watch?v... YOUR ORWELLIAN DOUBLESPEAK CAN'T FOOL US ALL, AMAZON!

Re:Never saw this coming

[Mordaximus]

1 meg per minute? Even only using GSM would give about 96K per minute, and there are far more worthy codecs for this kind of application.

Re: Never saw this coming

[Nonesuch]

The chips from Sensory date back to around 2010, at which point they were all of two bucks each. I don't recall which Android phones do or do not have chipset based hotword detection, but suspect that it's all but ubiquitous these days.

The iPhone 6/6S build "Hey Siri" recognition into the same co-processor (really a subprocessor as it's part of the M9 CPU) as the step counter and other always-on features, so even when sleeping it is always checking the stream from the microphone for the hotword.

This reduces power consumption significantly, and only starts spooling audio to a buffer in RAM after the hotword is detected. Once the possible command is in RAM, some phones will at least attempt to do speech recognition locally, while others always ship the audio buffer up to a cloud service for analysis

We'll build the domestic surveillance network

[Anonymous Coward]

And you suckers are going to pay for it!

Notable missing gadget

[MrNiceguy_KS]

From the summary:

Police also found a Nest thermostat, a Honeywell alarm system, wireless weather monitoring in the backyard and WeMo devices for lighting at the smart home crime scene. Officers have also seized an iPhone 6S, a Macbook Pro, a PlayStation 4 and three tablets in the investigation.

All those gadgets, but this guy didn't have a security camera?

Re:Notable missing gadget

[zlives]

i guess the alarm system didn't help either.

Re:Notable missing gadget

[Anonymous Coward]

Maybe the perp stole it.

Cops.... so SMART!

[Anonymous Coward]

Ultimately, it might have been information from a smart meter that proved to be the most useful. With every home in Bentonville hooked up to a smart meter that measures hourly electricity and water usage, police looked at the data and noticed Bates used an "excessive amount of water" during the alleged drowning.

Pure genius.

Re:Cops.... so SMART!

[bugs2squash]

I guess the shower in the Bate's motel room just kept running after the stabbing, probably with that shrieky music in the background.

Re: Cops.... so SMART!

[Anonymous Coward]

The excessive water usage was in his lungs.

Amazon - Overly broad?

[Anonymous Coward]

Seems a pretty specific search warrant. A one day window of any recordings made at a homicide scene. Not exactly what I'd consider a fishing expedition. Asking for info because maybe someone was thinking of something illegal sometime in the last week would be rather broad, even overly broad. One day at one scene where a crime definitely occurred? Hell no, that's plenty specific and justified. Doesn't mean Amazon can help. If the mikes off its off, no evidence to offer.

Re: Amazon - Overly broad?

[MrPeach]

It's the thinking that the device would be storing anything useful that is idiotic. It has no real storage for anything like that, and more importantly no conceivable reason to do so.

Re: Amazon - Overly broad?

[david_thornley]

How certain are you that they'll get nothing useful? This is a murder investigation. They often have trails that lead to dead ends, but need to be explored anyway. The police are being thorough here, that's all, and looking for anything that might possibly be helpful.

Queue Naked Timmy Cook Wrapped In US Flag

[Anonymous Coward]

Here we go again!

Timmy will be Full Meta Queer on NYT, WaPo, HufPo and other Media shills.

No doubt the FBI will at some point request Siri recordings too.

Ha ha

This is precisely why I won't allow

[Lord Kano]

one of these devices or an XBONE in my house. I don't trust it.

LK

Re:This is precisely why I won't allow

[Anonymous Coward]

and why should you....

there's absolutely no proof that "records only after hearing the wake word" is true. and even then, why is it *RECORDING* anything. nothing needs to be saved, even to provide voice activated 'services'... on the client OR on the damn 'cloud'. hear the command, take the action, do not save to storage device -- anything.

Re:This is precisely why I won't allow

[Anonymous Coward]

A bunch of recordings of you masturbating won't interest the police.

Re:This is precisely why I won't allow

[thegarbz]

Police asking for stupid things which don't exist are the reason why you don't have gadgets in your house? What did you post this on, a telegram?

Re: This is precisely why I won't allow

[Anonymous Coward]

You can prove it yourself. Just watch the network traffic stream. It will only start streaming audio after the wake word is spoken. I am not saying you should blindly trust, but a lot of eyeballs have been on the Echo devices and if they were constantly spying on users, this would have been noticed.

Re:This is precisely why I won't allow

[Lord Kano]

I'm currently using a desktop PC that only has a microphone or camera attached when I am actively using one.

LK

Re: This is precisely why I won't allow

[MrPeach]

And I believe the code is out there - for the Raspberry anyhow.

Re:This is precisely why I won't allow

[thegarbz]

And I know people who will never look up because satellites are watching. You should meet them. You'll get along fine.

Stay scared.

Most already pay for and carry their own tracking

[waspleg]

device.. and many of those consider it a status symbol. Why are you surprised? Personally, I'm just disgusted.

I even know people who know better buying garbage like Amazon Echo. It saddens and sickens me to see shit like this without any regard whatsoever to the consequences of the death of privacy and thus security and free speech.

I told you so

[kelemvor4]

I hate to say I told you so but I did tell you so. so...yeah, there it is.

Re:I told you so

[thegarbz]

Told us what? The police asking for something that doesn't exist has been a given for many years. They seem to be clueless as to how the Echo works. ... kind of like you.

Re: Most already pay for and carry their own track

[Anonymous Coward]

What about the guy who was murdered? Its pretty hard to have freedom of speech when you were choked to death. I don't like having bugs in my house either but with a valid search warrant why shouldn't the police use it for solving a homicide? If it were mandatory to have these device's in your home, then yes, that would be an issue but when you willingly buy them and then kill people in your house then you can cry me a river about freedom of speech.

This is Every Reason You Ever Needed...

[Zurkeyon3733]

Not to buy or own one of these super-spies! -------> Disable the Mic, in your TV as well. -------- Anything they hear IS ADMISSIBLE... In a Court Of Law.

Is Wal*mart behind this?

[ktakki]

I'm not one to traffic in conspiracy theories, but Bentonville, Arkansas is where Walmart's corporate headquarters are located.

Not that they have an axe to grind with Amazon or anything.

Could be enough to prove he's lying

[raymorris]

The suspect said he went to bed at 1:00 AM with the4 victim alive, then woke up at 8:30 to find him dead. The water meter indicates the drowning occurred between 1:00 AM and 3:00 AM.

ANY recording of the suspect's voice between 1:00 AM and 8:30 would probably indicate that the suspect is lying. Even if he checked the weather forecast at 4:00 that would indicate he wasn't asleep as claimed.

  On the other hand, if records or witness testimony indicates that the habitually suspect uses the Echo several times per hour and he did NOT use it between 1:00 and 8:30, that would be consistent with his claim that he was asleep, somewhat corroborating his story.

Re:Could be enough to prove he's lying

[sjames]

Oddly, even if he DID speak to Alexa, it wouldn't mean much. Some people talk in their sleep and later wake with no memory of it.

Re:Could be enough to prove he's lying

[bruce_the_loon]

Depends where the Echo is, if it's in the bedroom, then your point applies, if it's in the kitchen or living rooms, less so.

The Last Straw

[Swave An deBwoner]

That cinches it. Next time I plan to murder someone in my home I'm turning off my Amazon Echo beforehand.

Re:The Last Straw

[Bongo]

"Just one more thing....'

Columbo plots so often centred on him learning about a new gadget and that it was in an odd state at the time. I think Columbo would do just fine today :)

Re:Most already pay for and carry their own tracki

[CaptainDork]

Privacy is out the window.

I write about this shit a lot and it's similar to the "War on Piracy" in that when crap is digitized, it's essentially in the public domain.

My fucking car rats me out via a service I use. My phone does. My desktop and all my tablets do, too.

I get made when I buy shit at Walmart, via receipts and security cameras.

There ain't a goddam thing that's going to change all that, so we have only two choices:

A.) Get over it.

B.) Get used to it.

Echo isn't the smart device that cracked the case

[Solandri]

From TFAs:

Bates told police he went to bed at 1 a.m. after he, Collins and another man drank alcohol in his hot tub. Bates said he called police at 9:30 a.m. when he found Collins' body.

Bates' lawyer said a pair of cancelled calls around 1 a.m. and a series of short or cancelled calls around 4 a.m. on Bates' phone were mistakes.

As for Mr. Bates, court records suggest the device prosecutors got more from wasn't the Alexa but the home's smart water meter. It showed that someone used 140 gallons of water between 1 a.m. and 3 a.m. at Mr. Bates' house, a much heavier than usual amount.

So basically the guy's alibi might have held up if (1) he hadn't used his phone after he claimed he went to sleep, and (2) the water meter didn't show significant activity in the house after he claimed he went to sleep (police think he was busy washing away any evidence).

How to get away with it

[Katravax]

Just don't say Hey Siri, Alexa, Playstation, or OK Google when you're drowning someone in the bathtub and you're probably good to go.

Re:How to get away with it

[vux984]

'ok google' sounds enough like the noises one makes while drowning that maybe it activated on the victims struggles. :p

Re: Most already pay for and carry their own track

[Anonymous Coward]

We need more sheep like you in this world. Stop questioning things and do what you're told, everyone.

Re:Most already pay for and carry their own tracki

[spire3661]

C. Start slitting throats.

Re:Most already pay for and carry their own tracki

[CaptainDork]

Whose?

Re:Most already pay for and carry their own tracki

[zenlessyank]

Find the richest fuck and then work downhill.

This might be more relevant if...

[Tulsa_Time]

The victim was named Alexa...

Software non-freedom should make you feel unsafe.

[jbn-o]

I refer you to my previous comment on this theme and the ridiculous posts which fail to debunk the always-listening = spying theme by claiming to know what proprietary software does. Not only are such claims ridiculous on their face, but even if the spying were handled locally, it's trivially easy to record, compress, and store data from the device either uploading it with other data when the user expects something to be uploaded or buffer the spying fruit until a later time. And there's nothing stopping interesting background information from being captured too. The purpose of the captured data is subjective—a tracker owner may have intended to use the device to do one thing, but the background audio/video reveals something of interest in another context. The solution, of course, is to grant computer owners as much control over their computers as they can have by having all computers run nothing but free software.

Re:Most already pay for and carry their own tracki

[mujadaddy]

Do you happen to have a link to your newsletter?

hmmm

[Anonymous Coward]

So home automation is dangerous?

Re:Most already pay for and carry their own tracki

[CaptainDork]

I think this is his.

Top 10 richest people in the world ...

Only a dumbshit...

[Anonymous Coward]

would buy into this "smart" shit.

Re:Most already pay for and carry their own tracki

[Trax3001BBS]

device.. and many of those consider it a status symbol. Why are you surprised? Personally, I'm just disgusted.

I even know people who know better buying garbage like Amazon Echo. It saddens and sickens me to see shit like this without any regard whatsoever to the consequences of the death of privacy and thus security and free speech.

Do you have a Samsung HDTV? It's a tracker and they keep the info received forever the ToS reads, while it's for your benefit and they meant it for that reason, They keep a record of every word said, action you make and viewing habits, for voice activated, gestures and targeted ads.

I've read their ToS my Samsung is my computer monitor it doesn't connect to the Internet and I've never created an account for it, it had built in webcam I'd of taped it as I do all the cams that come this way.

Twice in the past they have issued warnings to all that will listen to be aware they can hear every word you say.

I could ramble on, all of it goes against everything I've practiced and I've nothing to hide.

It's hard being secure anymore without looking like a paranoid.

Re:Most already pay for and carry their own tracki

[mujadaddy]

That doesn't have the Queen, the Vatican, the Gettys, the Rothschilds, Col. Sanders, etc. etc...

Merry Christmas

[Anonymous Coward]

Officers have also seized an iPhone 6S, a Macbook Pro, a PlayStation 4 and three tablets in the investigation.

Right. Because those were necessary to an investigation of a man being strangled to death in a hot tub.

With the rate at which evidence seems to 'go missing', I'm betting these ended up being Christmas presents.

Re:Most already pay for and carry their own tracki

[operagost]

Because they're rich, they must have cheated people to get there and, in conclusion, they deserve to be murdered by you, a righteous person who has never done wrong.

Why would Amazon keep the recordings?

[green1]

Maybe I'm missing something, but this doesn't seem like how I'd design or build this thing.

First of all, there's no reason to store, even for a few seconds, anything before you detect the hotword to wake up. Next, the device does need to record the next bunch of time and forward it to Amazon for processing. But once the audio is processed, and the command detected, what can be gained from storing the raw audio? it would take a fair amount of storage space to keep the audio from every device for long periods, and you've already done whatever it was you needed to do with it anyway.

I can't come up with any reason why the raw audio would even exist more than a few seconds after the original use, let alone be available days, weeks, or months later to obtain by law enforcement.

Now if what you're looking for is evidence that someone activated the device, or issued a command (or even what the command was), then sure, I can see that existing in log files for troubleshooting, use analysis, marketing data, etc. But background audio? I just don't see why that would even exist.

Re:Why would Amazon keep the recordings?

[david_thornley]

What you're saying is very plausible speculation, but it's speculation. Neither you nor I nor the police actually know there isn't a scrap of evidence to be found there. This is a murder investigation, and the police are following up unlikely possibilities in the hope that something might turn up. The search warrant is adequately specific by Fourth Amendment standards. Why do people think there's a problem with this?

Walmart?

[bad-badtz-maru]

I keep wondering if it's just coincidence that this is happening in the same town where Walmart's HQ is located.

Re:Most already pay for and carry their own tracki

[CaptainDork]

Because they are not people (Vatican, the Gettys, the Rothschilds), not all that rich (the Queen) or died December 16, 1980, Louisville, KY (Col. Sanders).

Re:Most already pay for and carry their own tracki

[zenlessyank]

Sounds good to me. A rich fuck who still tries to make more money they don't need just so someone else cant have it sounds like a great fucking idea and the morals I strive for.

Re:Software non-freedom should make you feel unsaf

[Anonymous Coward]

Unfortunately; most users don't have and don't care to have Phds in computer science just so that they can patch, upgrade, use, or enjoy their computer.

Re:Software non-freedom should make you feel unsaf

[jbn-o]

I normally wouldn't give your clumsy and inept follow-up a response, but I'm feeling more charitable. Your response is akin to concluding that because not all Americans have time or inclination to become great writers or orators therefore Americans don't need freedom of speech. Your response both ignores what has been going on for decades and (perhaps purposefully) fails to understand the difference between freedom and obligation.

Apparently billions of computer users "patch, upgrade, use, [and] enjoy" their computers and they don't all have PhDs. But what most computer users don't have is complete control over their computers. People apparently need to ensure their own privacy (a critical human need) on computers. With software freedom people have options including learning to program (even small programming tasks), learning sysadmin tasks (even minor tasks), and learning what is relatively safe or risky to do with a computer. Software freedom grants permission to understand what any program on their computer does. Software freedom includes hiring the work out to others, and asking friends and family for help. Without software freedom many things about the computer are unknowable because, by definition, one does not have the freedom to truly understand what the computer is doing and share that with others (including by improving programs) no matter how technically skilled and willing they are to learn.