Slashdot Mirror
CS Professor Argues Silicon Valley Is Exploiting Both H-1B Visas And Workers (huffingtonpost.com)
schwit1 quotes Norm Matloff, a CS professor at the University of California at Davis, on H-1B visa programs:
The Trump administration has drafted a new executive order that could actually mean higher wages for both foreign workers and Americans working in Silicon Valley. The Silicon Valley companies, of course, will not be happy if it goes into effect... Their lobbyists claim there is a "talent shortage" among Americans and thus that the industry needs more of such work visas. This is patently false. The truth is that they want an expansion of the H-1B work visa program because they want to hire cheap, immobile labor -- i.e., foreign workers.
To see how this works, note that most Silicon Valley firms sponsor their H-1B workers, who hold a temporary visa, for U.S. permanent residency (green card) under the employment-based program in immigration law. EB sponsorship renders the workers de facto indentured servants; though they have the right to move to another employer, they do not dare do so, as it would mean starting the lengthy green card process all over again.
Computerworld also argues this year's annual H-1B visa lottery "may be different, because of President Donald Trump," reporting that the lottery has historically favored the largest firms heavily. "In the 2015 fiscal year, for instance, the top 10 firms received 38% of all the H-1B visas in computer occupations alone. All these firms, except for Amazon and to a partial extent IBM, are outsourcers."
To see how this works, note that most Silicon Valley firms sponsor their H-1B workers, who hold a temporary visa, for U.S. permanent residency (green card) under the employment-based program in immigration law. EB sponsorship renders the workers de facto indentured servants; though they have the right to move to another employer, they do not dare do so, as it would mean starting the lengthy green card process all over again.
Computerworld also argues this year's annual H-1B visa lottery "may be different, because of President Donald Trump," reporting that the lottery has historically favored the largest firms heavily. "In the 2015 fiscal year, for instance, the top 10 firms received 38% of all the H-1B visas in computer occupations alone. All these firms, except for Amazon and to a partial extent IBM, are outsourcers."
Seeings how they are TRAINING their low wage replacements, exactly how low talent are they??
Anyone who doesn't understand that low talent is the new code word for "we make too much money according to you" needs to wake up!
#noshitsherlock
Let the H1-Bs change companies easily. Those who suck will stay low wage and not be a problem for me. Those who are good can easily find a job that pays them what they're worth.
If you want to end exploitation of H1B visa holders, it seems like the easiest step would be to let visa holders change employers without restarting the H1B process. This would reduce the exploitation factor, since employees could walk away from bad jobs. It wouldn't require guessing what a reasonable salary bound would be, but would let the market decide that, instead.
This blatant abuse of the law must stop. It's time to start putting the leaders of these companies and everyone in the HR food chain in jail.
In particular, there is no early way out and after you have served your time you are free. This really does not match what is going on here.
As to the issue itself, if H1Bs are reduced enough or made economically non-viable, companies will just move the jobs offshore. There really is no way for US workers to win this one and anybody saying differently is a big fat liar, ah, I mean "purveyor of alternate facts" of course!
Most ACs are not even worth the keystrokes to insult them. Be generically insulted by this and ignored otherwise.
Then the US government wouldn't allow the company sponsoring the worker to have any control over his status, well at least after some trial period.(Say 6 months) I mean really, if it was about talent would anybody want a talent guy to get the boot back to his country because of the whims of his boss? (Yes, I know it's politics is the real reason they let companies own people under H1B)
Did you know 80 to 90% of the moderators on slashdot wouldn't recognize a troll even if one dragged them under a bridge.
Companies like Google and Facebook pay their H-1B workers quite well. Their problem has been that the H-1B visas in recent years have been snapped up by low-paying outsourcing and contracting firms who have spammed the H-1B lottery with applications.
Trump's proposed system gives priority to H-1B visa applications based on salary. This is a big win for Silicon Valley companies, because they pay some of the highest salaries. It's a big loss for the outsourcing and contracting firms.
The government should charge $125k/year, or some other number, for each one. The company gets to take the salary off of that. That said, the ramp up to y2k allowed IT salaries to also become unrealistic for what most of the industry does and is qualified to do. It does need to adjust.
I guess people have caught on to the fact that H-1B visas became portable long ago and Matloff's "H-1B visa holders are indentured servants" was nonsense, so he had to come up with a new myth. First of all, when you get hired as an H-1B, your employer has no idea whether you will start the green card process, so they have to regard you as someone who can leave at any time, just like any American worker. Furthermore, since 2000, you can usually change employers even while your green card process is pending.
The Society of German Engineers (VDI) regularly hyperinflates the numbers of required IT experts and engineers and open positions by orders of magnitude to get more people into University studying related fields to keep up the supply of fresh cheap graduates that can be bought cheaply and sold out expensively and score contractors some neat margins. It's the very same kind of ultimate bullsh*t, just with a slightly different goal.
We suffer more in our imagination than in reality. - Seneca
Back in the 90s, it wasn't such a problem because there was a lot of work.
After the dot-com crash/01, the job market really tightened up - but people, especially employers still thought the job market was still as hot was it was in 1999. So, if one were unemployed, it meant you were no good.
Today, many employers will not hire unemployed people - especially in tech. They get around any laws and lawsuits by not giving feedback (you hear nothing after applying), send the "you don't have the skills" excuse email, or some other lameass thing.
Here's how to get hired as developer/engineer/programmer: be a 20 something with a degree from Stanford, MIT or some other top school.
BS CS from State? Learn this: "Have you tried turning it on and off?" or "Would you like room for cream?"
That is what Trump is proposing.
Troll is not a replacement for I disagree.
The cost of housing has increased dramatically forcing the disabled and poor on to the streets. A contributing factor for this is the large number of H1B tech workers in the area earning over 6 times the poverty level and over twice the average of non tech workers. When 15% of the workforce are guaranteed to be guest workers and up to 30% at companies are guest workers through partnership and alliances. That brings this group of high wage earners to be a significant portion of the population. Having that much more money causes housing prices to go up. The flip side of this problems is that these H1B workers are being used to replace older engineers and force the wages for all engineers to be reduced.
America needs the best and brightest, but replacing experienced engineers and increasing homelessness by using H1B is not the answer. Increase the quality of public education, lower the cost of collage degrees, create a higher barrier of entry for guest workers is the way.
In the 80’s American companies moved manufacturing out of America, The decline in manufacture jobs causing Trump to be elected. Now education is being moved off shore by importing guest workers. In a few years who will be “elected” because public education is gone?
We will see if Trump is a populist or fascist in dealing with the H1B issue.
That would never work because Ihab would go in to make 200k a year on the promise of bringing his 42 cousins t hat will all work for $30k a year and get them green cards. Then everybody is fucked. Open borders are not the answer
The outgoing workers being forced to train their replacements.
And the incoming schmucks who are so desperate that they'll work for peanuts while the sponsoring companies, e.g. Infosys, Wipro, Satyam, Tata, Microsoft, Accenture[1] charge hefty rates for their services.
But Twitler will fix it. Just like he's going to make Mexico pay for the wall. It'll be great.
[1] https://visacoach.org/2009/02/...
I dont see that working because as we see in tech industry, heated enemies will team up when profits can be gained. So then we would have a huge price rigging meeting for H1B's, And they would all offer $10k and one $10,000,01. Then rotate around the community. I wouldnt put it past them.
Why not try "importing" cheap labor from other parts of the US?
I mean sponsoring "immigrants" from lower paid workers from surrounding states.. paying them less than those already conditioned to the higher life style cost of living in California.
I think its pretty much the same solution as fixing wages for peoples incoming to the US or just moving around the US is.. about the same thing.
The H-1B visa unintentionally set a "fixed" Lower Maximum Wage.. the terms Wage contract meant if they needed to downsize they did not have to give the employee or make notice in the news or press.. two big benefits to companies seeking to control wages and headcount.
Making a solution increasingly complex just continues the game.
Just cancel the game.
Ok, so Silicon Valley contains a lot of tech companies that want to operate efficiently, so they’re going to naturally look for ways to cut costs, including employee salaries. H1-B workers are cheaper, so they’ll naturally want to investigate that option. Many H1-B visa holders are pretty decent, so they’re viable to hire. The tech company lawyers will be checking to make sure they’re being legal in their hires, but of course, they’re going to make sure they only conform to the letter of the law, and they’re always going to be trying to look for loopholes.
In other words, who is daft enough to think that SV tech companies wouldn’t as a matter of course be exploiting H1-B visas and workers to the maximum extent possible?
I mean, this is total no-brainer stuff here.
The more competitive and successful your business, the more you are exploiting the available resources - these days especially human resources.
If the resources being exploited are in agreement that it is a mutual benefit, then we're all good.
.... for Americans in the first place? If a person is legally living in the USA, then they rightly should have about the same cost of living as an American and be entitled to the same lifestyle as anyone else doing the same job. Since where a person is from should not be a factor on whether a person is hired in the first place except to the extent that it may affect their ability to do the job, it should have absolutely *NO* effect on how much they are getting paid to do the job either. Doing so is grossly discriminatory, and employers that want to get away with this are no better than those involved in human slave trade, and in my view should be treated with equal contempt.
File under 'M' for 'Manic ranting'
That's (roughly) the way it works today, except it's they'll be paid 'more' than the average salary for the position they're in.
The problem isn't the 50% bit, it's the 'the position they're in' bit. The contracting firms like Infosys fill positions that are generic contractor roles - *not* highly skilled positions, which command low salaries. They then contract them out to other companies to do highly skilled jobs, at their low skilled salary.
Companies like Apple, MS and Amazon (which are not in those top 10 visa getters) hire people directly into the highly skilled roles, and are more than willing to pay extremely high salaries for them.
All H1-B visa requests should go into a pool and from that entries should be selected in descending order from the highest wages. Then the companies that are seriously trying to bring someone in that they really can't get would get the people they need. I have seen companies try to bring a single person in and where offering a LOT for the job but never won the lottery for the H1-B slot.
This seems like it would almost entirely address the current problems of H1-B being used to drive wages down. It is hard to drive wages down when the slots are essentially auctioned.
There are companies outside of the tech companies that do pull in highly qualified people with H1-B and don't screw their workers over.
I am sick and tired of the system being abused to lower wages and treat people like servants as so many of the tech companies do. Most of them where even involved in agreements with each other in silicon valley to drive wages down. The system needs to be fundamentally fixed and the companies abusing it needed to be fined MORE than what the H1-B system abuse saved them.
Computer modeling for biotech drug manufacturing is HARD!
Yeah, this would be the magic bullet. Too bad for them that India is not a Muslim country, and that the bulk of Indian Muslims who emigrate go to Gulf countries, for good reason, rather than to Western countries
All these countries should go talent shopping to countries like Iran, Somalia, Yemen, Sudan, et al, so that all those Liberal activists who are on their case for hiring from India or Eastern Europe would be forced to prioritize b/w their Trump derangement vs the interests of US workers.
There is a lot of "myths" out there about this subject. Sometimes it helps to look at the actual LCA applications that have been filed to import nonimmigrant guest workers to take American jobs. Hopefully these links will help answer some of your questions: Are H-1B's really paid what Americans are paid? http://h1bhuntinglicenses.com/... What jobs are these Hunting Licenses being Purchased For? http://h1bhuntinglicenses.com/...
Too bad for them that India is not a Muslim country
I stand corrected, it's unconstitutional because it's an anti-Hindu executive order! That must be the real motive...
We'll make great pets
If you can only find your employees in India, etc., then move your company there, bitch.
There's clearly no shortage at all of skilled workers.
There's a shortage of ethical companies, that's all.
I've fallen off your lawn, and I can't get up.
You don't have to be a CS professor to see it. Professorship explains why it took him so long to notice.
It's legalized slave trading. And pretty much everyone is doing it because it is easy and cheap and there are virtually no repercussions for gaming the system and abusing your workers.
Custom electronics and digital signage for your business: www.evcircuits.com
I am well aware there is a shortage of companies willing to pay what talent actually deserves. I've worked in the tech industry for over 20 (40 for me) years and it's exceedingly rare to find an engineer who actually knows what they're doing that will take a lowball salary, is under 30, doesn't need good insurance, doesn't live like a rat in a box, doesn't have a family to support, and is willing to move to your ultra-expensive tech enclave and abandon their home and community for income at levels that is a fraction of their worth and cannot possibly maintain their standard of living...
FTFY
I've fallen off your lawn, and I can't get up.
The real cure for this is to make IT a licensed profession like teaching, accounting, medicine, law and engineering. Look back over that list of 5 professions - is there any serious doubt that quality, ethical IT that meets some kind of minimum standards is as needed for modern society as in those five?
But licensing has a second effect that has similarities to unionization. (In some ways, it's the opposite of unions - a state licensing body has to explain to new professionals every year that THEY do not get a THING for their dues, because the organization does not serve THEM...it serves the public trust, protecting the public from bad work) . But by doing that, it also keeps out crappy competition CALLING itself professional, while mainly getting the job by cutting the price in half.
With an union as well!
licensed profession like teaching, medicine, law and engineering are union in varying ways.
Interesting that this started in Washington state.
Trump seems to have the law on his side, but the 9th circuit court seems determined to ignore the law, ignore the clearly defined separation of powers, and legislate from the bench.
U.S. Code, Title 8, Chapter 12, Subchapter II, Part II, p1182(f) 2013 reads: "Whenever the President finds that the entry of any aliens or of any class of aliens into the United States would be detrimental to the interests of the United States, he may by proclamation, and for such period as he shall deem necessary, suspend the entry of all aliens or any class of aliens as immigrants or nonimmigrants, or impose on the entry of aliens any restrictions he may deem to be appropriate."
Note: "the President" the courts have absolutely no place in this. The matter is outside the jurisdiction of the courts.
There seems to be substantial precedence in this matter. The US has banned immigration from various countries since 1882. Restricting immigration from various countries goes back further than that - I think all the way back to the 18th century.
Both president Obama, and president Carter, restricted immigration from Muslim countries.
This matter should have never come before the court.
> This is a deliberate attempt to shift control over immigration from the executive and legislative branches to the judicial branch in order to grant foreigners a constitutionally protected “right” to enter the U.S. The 9th Circuit’s decision is way off-base.
> The Supreme Court has previously held that federal courts are prohibited from hearing cases asking them to declare illegal the exercise of a power that the Constitution assigns exclusively to the other branches of government. This rule is referred to as the “Political Question Doctrine.” It preserves the separation of powers by keeping the courts from assuming functions that should be performed by the legislature or the executive. The role of the courts is to interpret and apply the law, not to set the national security agenda, conduct foreign affairs, or craft our immigration policies.
> Applying the Political Question Doctrine, the Supreme Court has repeatedly said that the powers to legislate and implement the conditions for admitting aliens into the United States belong, respectively, to Congress and the executive branch. Article I, Section 8, Clause 4, of the United States Constitution specifically grants Congress the power to establish a “uniform Rule of Naturalization.” The power to pass laws governing who may enter and remain in the United States is implied in that power.
http://www.lifezette.com/polizette/trump-executive-orders-fall-victim-legislating-bench/
The 9th circuit court has a long, and sordid history of ultra-liberal activist judges, legislating from the bench.
From Lawfare:
> How to Read (and How Not to Read) Today’s 9th Circuit Opinion
> "Remarkably, in the entire opinion, the panel did not bother even to cite this statute, which forms the principal statutory basis for the executive order (see Sections 3(c), 5(c), and 5(d) of the order). That’s a pretty big omission over 29 pages, including several pages devoted to determining the government’s likelihood of success on the merits of the case."
https://www.lawfareblog.com/how-read-and-how-not-read-todays-9th-circuit-opinion
https://pbs.twimg.com/media/C4TaLeEXAAA0c4g.jpg
It looks to me as though US District Judge James Robart in Seattle may be an activist judge, legislating from the bench. Or Robart may be influenced by Microsoft. Microsoft is unhappy about Trump's action because MS has some visa workers from those countries.
So on one hand "Silicon Valley abuses H1b", on the other, most H1bs aren't given to Silicon Valley companies so obviously if they abuse it, they are far from the top abusers of it, according to the numbers. Make your mind? I would also like to point out that the summary is misleading. Yes, once you are on the EB (employer sponsored) green card process, while you are waiting for it to be processed if you move employers you have to start all over (for obvious reasons since the labor certification process requires to specify skills that apply at the current position which can easily change if you move), but once approved the immigrant isn't bound to a single employer anymore. So not really sure how this is part of "Silicon Valley's abuse of H1bs" because it rather looks to me like them wanting to get these people here and have them stay permanently. Oh, you're thinking of Chinese/Russian/Indian citizens that have to wait 10+ years for the green card to be approved (which btw, is kinda insane if you think about it, people get married, have kids, get divorced, multiple times in that kind of time interval)? Well then why not try to propose something to _speed up_ their approval process and so then such people will be stuck in the EB approval waiting process for much less time? While it's true that statistically a large number of H1bs are abused (could be most of them right now) it's also true that a large number of them are being used to hire skilled talent that we want in this country, because if they are working for us here they are using their highly developed skills to boost this economy and they pay taxes for their income. The question of course is how to allow for these (or make it even easier for them) while making it hard for the abusers.
You're my new favorite slashdotter!!
I want to be able to take my self, my team maybe, my family maybe (depends on the situation) to whichever piece of rocky real estate on this watery planet that I want, as long as it has an Internet connection, and frickin' work and play.
I'm not telling you where I was born or grew up, because it doesn't matter and it's none of your damn business, as far as I can tell.
What's wrong with this model?
I suppose remnant governments fixing the roads and hospitals and stuff would still like to collect some tax on the proceeds of my work. Ok fine. But given my desire to explore the world while working, it would make more sense if there was a global tax collecting bureaucracy (a DAO) that could distribute the tax I pay based on some fair objective algorithm to more local jurisdictions, depending maybe on how much time I spend in each, what were they called?, oh yeah country.
Isn't this where we're going? Can't we just go with the inevitable flow here?
Where are we going and why are we in a handbasket?
Wait, I thought it's Apple, Microsoft and ("especially") Google that are the good H1b players and it was the Indian Tata/Infosys/etc that are abusing it, according to the numbers at least. Care to back up your "it is a threat to national security" and "unacceptable and should be downright illegal" statements?
There is no true Left in the US, just as there is no true Right, both sides of the isle are defined by the interests certain groups having joined one side or the other over the history, instead of by ideology. Thus in both sides you can find conflicting beliefs to the supposedly Left or Right ideology that they adhere to. In the Democrats case is the support for large Tech and Hollywood business (coincidentally? based in California) while in the Republican case we believe in small/non-intrusive government except if it's about army, foreign policy interventions and people's sexual behaviors.
We have some of the best universities in the world in the US. Many people come here to be educated.
If we do not have an adequately educated and trained talent pool in the US we have no one to blame but ourselves.
The real fix is to taper off the H1B system while at the same time get employment market feedback into our education system so that we turn out less english and art history majors and more scientists, engineers, and tradespeople.
Since Hindus don't have the practice of claiming victimhood status the way Muslims do, that approach won't work here. The reason it's haram to say things against Muslims/Islam is that since Communism ended, they are the most major anti-Western group out there that's opposed to everything traditionally Western, thereby attracting the support of the hard Left (despite the misogyny, homophobia, animal-cruelty and whole host of other things that would be considered toxic by traditional Liberals). No other group has that attitude - not Hindus, not Christians, not Jews, not Atheists, not Rastafarians, not Scientologists, not Buddhists, not Sikhs, not Taoists, not Jains, not Confucians, noone else!
If there's a talent shortage, then why are people being fired and replaced with H-1B workers, which actually have to be trained by the people that are being fired.. This is BS, there is no shortage, but those H-1B workers are just much cheaper, even though they cannot do the work as good as the original employees..
Lobbying. A company can hire a few lawyers, people with needed US mil/gov/police security clearances and the politically connected.
:) :)
Thats the wealthy inner core. By placing selected ads for US computer workers in news papers with readers who on average don't apply for computer work a legal case for a lack of US workers can be presented.
All US interviews can also be set up to fail. Once enough paperwork has been created a teams shows US bureaucrats the urgent need for expert workers.
International firms then help to find and place staff. The US jobs are then filled with union free, lower cost workers who fear for the loss of that work.
The savings in wages go to profit taking, generational shareholders, are used to attract new investors as a healthy profit exists.
The legal teams and politically connected staff also know to thank the political system that supports the visa system.
Over time the company has the exception is that cheap workers are now just part of how the US works and the profit taking will never end.
The US firms are now full of cheap staff who have no loyalty to the USA, who are just working for a low wage.
The US could seen see the EU idea of very short term "Posted workers" but with a global intake of cheap staff.
Very short term on site wage workers getting a wage that reflects what they are paid in their own nations.
A say a bank needs staff to set up a new site and needs a lot of cheap brand trusted staff. They fly the workers in for a month, legally play the lowest country of origin wages.
Fly the staff home. The US could seen see the EU idea of very short term globally "Posted workers".
The next legal trick is to keep the short term posted workers in country for a while. Almost becoming permanent jobs with low wages.
So far that wage gap in the EU has been the issue. But if low wages globally can be offered within the USA?
The final step will be in accepting any nations qualifications. Engineers, doctors, lawyers will be allowed to work in the USA if they have any paper work from their own nations. No wasting time on that open book US bar exam. Equivalence
The US legal teams that worked so hard to open the US to outside workers could be replaced by global teams.
A real US security clearance might be the only way to keep a US job
Domestic spying is now "Benign Information Gathering"
If that is the case, then explain to me why these H1-Bs are being trained by the American employees that they're displacing.
Because American workers don't maintain documentation and all their working knowledge is locked up in their heads. As an American contractor who does short-term projects, I find it aggravating to spend time reinventing the wheel for a long lost process, say, setting up a DOS-based pharmaceutical program on Windows 7 system, only to find out later that one of the IT techs didn't volunteer the information when I asked because he wanted me to beg for it. This level of douchebaggery doesn't help anyone.
""In the 2015 fiscal year, for instance, the top 10 firms received 38% of all the H-1B visas in computer occupations alone. All these firms, except for Amazon and to a partial extent IBM, are outsourcers."
Maybe this is technically correct, but this statement is misleading.
In 2015, the top-8 firms received 49,539 H1-B visas or over 58% of the 85,000 nominal allotment. Of these, about 700 had advanced US degrees. All 8 were Indian outsourcing companies, and the overwhelming majority of the visa approvals went to Indian nationals, about 48,650 Indians from these top-8 firms.
Of course, the ironic thing was that a few years ago, my company was unable to obtain an H1-B visa for our new Indian worker who has an EE PhD from a top-5 US engineering school and is definitely top-notch. He was forced to apply for an outstanding researcher visa instead. Ironically, the low-paid, not outstanding Indians displaced the highly paid, very outstanding Indian.
Since Hindus don't have the practice of claiming victimhood status the way Muslims do, that approach won't work here
Oh apparently it does Trump is the uber racist, xenophobe remember? That applies equally to all "foreigners" including Hindus.
We'll make great pets
You're either a HR sociopath or a H1B shill. How would you feel if the situation was reversed and we were coming to your country and dragging down your wages. Nothing personal if you're the H1B variety - I'd have done the same if a country was stupid enough to allow this to happen to their citizens. If you're the HR sociopath type please kill yourself - Lord Satan has big plans for you on his leadership team.
If their managers were competent leaders they'd be able to guide the documentation efforts. Oh yeah, please fck off. H-1B shill. We've endured decades of wage depression and have had quite enough.
Seems most don't realize this. Tech companies were the real reason the neo-fascists blocked the EO. What the hell has happened to the modern liberal leadership?!? You're a -1 on your comment at them moment, must be a lot of H-1B moderators today -- again. Sorry dude. Or, they simply missed your sarcasm.
In other news, scientists proclaim that water is wet.
This comment is my opinion and does not represent an official position of Donald Trump or others I do not work for
Was that before the Germans bombed Pearl Harbor, or after?
Confucius say, "Find worm in apple - bad. Find half a worm - worse."
Anyone *not* suggesting both employees and the H-1b visa system are being played simply isn't paying attention - or doesn't want the cheap labor stream to end.