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Nobody Is Moving, Especially Millennials (nymag.com)
For a fun new entry into millennials are lazy, consider this: According to new data tracked down by Richard Fry for Pew Research, just 20 percent of 25- to 35-year-olds (Old Millennials, if you will) reported having lived at a different address the previous year. From a report on NYMag: In 2000, a full 26 percent of Gen-Xers -- then at the same age range -- had reported making a move in the previous year. In 1963, members of the Silent Generation moved at a 26 percent rate, too. The census data being used here doesn't include college-dorm moves prevalent with 18- to 24-year-olds, so those young'uns are left out of the analysis. The 20 percent rate is the lowest level of young adult mobility in half a century, Fry reports, and all this with millennials getting married, owning homes, and having kids less than previous generations. Student debt and less favorable lending rates may be driving down homeownership -- imagine that -- which further reduces movement. Psychologically, this also means that young adults are more stuck with their personalities and faded of memory compared with their more mobile peers.
I am trying to move to another area.
I hear from employers 'no one willing/qualified to do the job'
I also hear. "you are not local". -_-
sure you might make more money cash wise, but you're going to be a perpetual renter aka sharecropper with nothing to your name
putting down roots means you can buy property at a younger age which means you will pay it off faster and have kids at a younger age. the perpetual movers will be the people having their first kid at 45 and no spare cash from having their rent increase all the time
Psychologically, this also means that young adults are more stuck with their personalities and faded of memory compared with their more mobile peers.
Practically, this means that the writer of this article is a psychobabbling fool.
Set there quietly and subsist on your draw.
If the running zeitgeist includes pessimism about one's economic outlook, these sorts of things shouldn't come as a surprise.
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We're waiting for the bubble to burst again. Hopefully this time they don't bail out the banks and and the idiots who bought mcmansions. The bailouts (including "Keep Your Home California") prevented me, a responsible, financially stable adult, from owning a home. Prices are over double what they should be in my area.
People don't have roommates, they have roomfamilies.
Millenials have fewer job prospects in general and are less wealthy than their parents were at the same age. This is true by a variety of different metrics. See e.g. http://www.usatoday.com/story/money/2017/01/13/millennials-falling-behind-boomer-parents/96530338/. In the last few years, something, it isn't clear what, has been drastically reducing the resources available to young people. This is combining with cost disease http://slatestarcodex.com/2017/02/09/considerations-on-cost-disease/ in a way that is leaving many people in the young age bracket with far less effective purchasing power than their parents would have had for many things. It isn't completely the case; some goods such as computers and cell phones are far cheaper (and often weren't even available to their parents) but that's a relatively small fraction of their total goods. Some other trends are clear positive, such as the reduction in poverty in the US, and the overall trends throughout the world are mainly positive. See e.g. https://singularityhub.com/2016/06/27/why-the-world-is-better-than-you-think-in-10-powerful-charts/. But the US specific young people are clearly going through a bad time in general.
"young adults are more stuck with their personalities and faded of memory "
what?
Nobody Is Moving, Especially Millennials
Dear Drake Baer and NY Mag Editors, If "nobody" is moving, then there cannot be an "especially".
Also, who cares? I'm 53 and have lived in the same house (which is paid for) since 1993 and the same city since 1980.
It must have been something you assimilated. . . .
For a fun new entry into millennials are lazy, consider this: According to new data tracked down by Elon Musk for Elon Musk, just 20 percent of 25- to 35-year-olds (Old Millennials, if you will) reported having lived at a different address the previous year. From a report on ElonMag:
In 2000, a full 26 percent of Gen-Xers -- then at the same age range -- had reported making a move in the previous year. In 1963, members of the Silent Generation moved at a 26 percent rate, too. The census data being used here doesn't include college-dorm moves prevalent with 18- to 24-year-olds, so those young'uns are left out of the analysis. The 20 percent rate is the lowest level of young adult mobility in half a century, Musk reports, and all this with millennials getting married, owning homes, and having kids less than previous generations. Student debt and less favorable lending rates may be driving down homeownership -- imagine that -- which further reduces movement. Psychologically, this also means that young adults are more stuck with their personalities and faded of memory compared with their more mobile peers.
Musk went on to ask "WHAT THE FUCK DOES more stuck with their personalities and faded of memory MEAN. LIKE ITS NOT EVEN A GOOGLE TRANSLATED SENTENCE FUCK"
Millennials are (in general) sold on living in the big city, generally in an apartment.
There's only a few big cities, so unsurprisingly, there isn't much movement.
The is also why Millennials feel the cost of living is higher now, especially the cost of ownership. Owning a home in the big city has always been out of reach for most, and the cost of living is higher too. With even more people choosing that lifestyle, it won't get better.
Personally, I hate big cities, but I'm gen X. I also prefer a detached house, which meant a smaller city too.
Millennials are earning more than I sure did for their first job, even after CPI adjustment. Yet I own a home. So it isn't that.
...and if they HAD moved, other generations would undoubtedly use it as evidence of an inability to commit.
Clearly we need to mock and make fun of millennials more, previous disrespect has been inadequate to make them flourish just like the good ol' days.
In a slightly more serious note, this was predicted. A fair number of reputable economists warned us of our own lost generation after the 2008 crash. The bottom of the ladder got pulled and the replacement jobs available to low experience young folk are not as relatively good as what was available for other generations. So you have low wage earners with stacks of debt from surviving (how dare they!), and from getting a college degree like they were told was the only good path thousands of times (suckers!).
But it is easier to make fun of how they dress different, and use funny new words (like EVERY generation of young folks before them) than to fix the lack of good entry level jobs, low wages, expensive healthcare, and over priced tuition. It looks to me like society has failed a generation and they have made rational choices to live within their means to the extent possible.
I've been living in my 475-sft studio apartment in Silicon Valley for nearly 12 years. Thanks to rent control, I'm paying $300 per month less than market rate. If everything works out, I'll be moving to Sacramento Valley this summer.
We can't afford to. House prices are rising faster than wages, one of many ways life now is just plain more expensive than it was 30, 40, 50 years ago.
msmash, formerly manishs, is a malfunctioning AI that has somehow gained the ability to post articles to Slashdot
Anyone that has kids has pretty much forfeited their ticket to the good life. Why anyone would waste hundreds of thousands of dollars bringing more people into an already overcrowded world that will surely disappoint them is completely beyond me, particularly when you consider the mobility and quality of life you will be sacrificing to make this happen simply to follow a biological imperative.
So this may sound crazy, but I wonder why today's twenty-somethings don't just simply default on their loans.
I'm a Gen Xer. I graduated college in 2000, just in time for the dot com bubble burst and 9/11 to mess with the economy. The only job I could find was as an overnight janitor at a hotel. I made $8 an hour.
There was no way I could afford both rent and student loans, so I simply didn't pay the loans. Sure it ruined my credit, but at $8 an hour it's not like anybody would be giving me loans anyways.
3.5 years later I got a job making $14 an hour, which allowed me to start paying the loans back again. As my career has progressed I've gotten promotions and raises and whatnot. Now I'm financially secure, the loans are all paid off and my credit score hovers around 750.
Careless lending by the banks is a big reason the economy is in the mess it's in today. Why pay them money before taking care of yourself? Maybe if banks were feeling some pain we'd actually see some social programs to help young people out.
I don't see why there should be a positive correlation between being less wealthy and moving less. In fact, poverty is often the driving force behind moving to or within the US. Think about okies during the great depression, Irish during the potato famine, etc.
The current resistance to moving is surprising since some areas of the US have significantly more economic opportunities than others, but fewer people are moving to take advantage of them. (That said, there is still a fair number of people who move.) I hate to blame it on "kids these days!", but there is a legitimate case that we're kind of losing our immigrant drive that brought the US success in the first place. It makes me think that we need more immigrants...
I can't afford to move out of my parent's house, because i'm buried in student loans, live in California, and i was recently laid off after a year.
This is hardly surprising news. Millennials have been stuck for awhile between getting slammed with the Great Recession while they were trying to enter the workforce to being chronically underemployed currently to increased student debt that lingers on. They can't move if they don't have the funds to do so, or the new job to move into. Things should improve for them over the next 5 years as Boomers retire, freeing up some upward mobility, but there is a lot of ground to make up. The biggest thing to help them integrate fully into the economy would be some student loan relief.
I used to think it would be fun to move around the world. However, now that I have kids, moving isn't practical. Family is a wonderful support system. Moving far away means that support system gets left behind. Unless you are incredibly wealthy, and can afford to bring parents or grandparents with, or hire a live in nanny, it's just too difficult.
One of our competitors trademarked the term "hypothesis". From now on, we will call them "boneheaded ideas".
Decreased home ownership is asserted to REDUCE movement? Citation needed.
I'd have thought the exact opposite - when I was renting, I moved every 2-3 years. Now that I own a home, I haven't moved since.
I guess not being able to buy a house might keep current renters from moving out of their current place, but I'd expect overall a population with a higher rate of ownership would be less mobile, not more.
What if they moved before they where 25. I am not a Millennial but I moved out of my parents house and into my own house at 23. The fact that I haven't moved in 16 years doesn't make me lazy.
They evidently didn't count moves within the same house, e.g. from their childhood bedroom to the furnished basement.
Married for 12 years and no children and none in the future. Had a vasectomy at 23 and my wife had a partial hysctorectomy a little over a year ago.
Plenty of non-virgins don't want children.
I blame us Gen X'ers for coddling kids too much. I'm not sure why we think kids will want to stand on their own if they are given everything they need or want as dependents..
"They that give up essential liberty to obtain a little temporary safety deserve neither liberty nor safety"-B.Franklin
The market sucks because people used to be willing to pack their asses up and take a risk to make a better life for themselves and their families. It has become socially acceptable to live in your parents houses and wait for jobs to come home to you.
Wanna know what makes H1B a great thing? It gives motivated people the opportunity to do what make America great. They takes risk and throw it all in to make a better life. Today, a bunch of idiots complain that "well I'm a coal miner. People don't want coal anymore so there's no coal mining jobs. The government has to force people to use coal because otherwise I'd have to move!"
No shit!!! How do you think that coal town happened to begin with?
Gen-X and boomers moved a lot when young because they got job offers and moved to take the job.
If the only jobs around are fast food and retail, there's no reason to move-- there are McDongles and Arpies all over.
Most of the stuff mentioned I can agree with. But less favorable lending rates? Only a Millennial ignorant of history would think that. Mortgage interest rates are the lowest they've been in 60 years. My generation (gen-x) had to deal with mortgage interest rates double what they are today. My parents had to deal with 17% interest rates. You have to go all the way back to 1955 to see interest rates as favorable as they are today.
With a 4% interest rate on a 30 year mortgage, 42% of your payments over the life of the loan are interest.
With a 8% interest rate, 62% of your payments are interest.
With a 17% interest rate, 81% of your payments are interest.
For just about anyone alive today, there has never been a better time to get a mortgage to buy a home.
Getting married without having children is REALLY stupid. Why bother? The only reason to get married is to raise children. Otherwise just live together.
I was trying to figure out what the hell that statement actually means.
Thinking back to when I was 18-25 I moved six times. Moving out, moving from ghetto apartment to share a house, moving because the landlord needed the house for the next generation to go to college. Moving out of the nice apartment because the landlord was tired of being a landlord in-general and wanted to sell (even offered to sell to me but it wasn't where I wanted to live permanently), moving out of the house I rented with an ex-friend (be careful living with friends), moving out of my folks house that I was caretaker of when they were away for a year, finally ending up in a rental that I had until around 27. The only truly voluntary move was leaving home when I was eighteen, the rest had some degree of forced move, albeit some like renting my parents' house from them while they were away it was expected that I would move out when the time came.
From 25 to 35 I moved twice. Once out of the rental into my fiancee's house a couple weeks prior to getting married, and then five years later when we moved into a bigger house after the housing market crashed and we could get a whole lot of house for the money. Obviously both voluntary, but moving almost literally every five years kind of fits perfectly into that 20% of people moving every year, if everyone moved every five years. Statistically dead even on the line.
Why would people want to move often, especially as one reaches the top of the age range? People tend to acquire more stuff. They tend to find that their friendships are cemented. For women, per the CDC, the average age of first child is 25, and moving with children isn't exactly pleasant for anyone either. For someone to want to move after they've reached a degree of pleasant stability usually means they're able to significantly improve their station (like their career is strong and they can afford to go someplace much nicer) or they're forced to move because of some negative, either problems with work or problems with the neighborhood itself. Moving just for its own sake doesn't generally make a whole lot of sense for most people.
Do not look into laser with remaining eye.
RTFS. They're not just staying in one city, they're staying at one address. This means nobody is buying houses. It's another sign the Millennials are getting screwed. The evidence keeps mounting and the media keeps ignoring it.
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you aren't the first people to think that in your 20's. then the 40s hit and it's like that Picard line from Star Trek. "I've realized there are fewer days ahead than there are behind"
If "nobody is moving", then how can the fact that millenials aren't moving be a special case??
https://chrome.google.com/webs...
please stop the bullshit.
Freedom in America is largely defined by Economic Freedom. Without the ability to obtain a disposable income, Millennials are unable to live their life on their terms. They are effectively Wage Slaves, shackled to and controlled by Debt and most of them will prove powerless to overcome that slavery. We will see the middle class die within the next decade, and with it, the rise of chronic underemployment, and the end of the nuclear family as multi-family and multi-generational households will become the new norm
DINK - Dual Income No Kids
Enjoy all those fancy vacations and new cars you can afford :-) try not to complain about everything too much.
There are plenty of reasons to marry and not have kids, such as saving on taxes, insurance, or even just making sure someone has the authority to make medical decisions if something should happen to you.
So what I take from the precentages is that people move an average of every four to five years. Obviously some move more often and some move less, so the spread might count for something, but it's not some vast case of decades of immobility.
Do not look into laser with remaining eye.
I was trying to figure out if 'faded of memory' was an autocorrect error. Turns out it's a reference to a -single study- indicating that people cite more memorable experiences than expected by chance, from around the times in their lives when they moved. My reaction is 'so what'? Doesn't say that life is better because of those moves, or a person is better off because they have those memories. Yes, if you live in one place for many years (especially as an adult), those years start to blur together. I lived in one apartment for 5 years and to me all that time is about the same. I don't see how that relates to success, happiness, quality-of-life, or really anything of importance. Might as well say 'people who live in the middle of the country have few memories of going to the beach'.
That nice, but I'm 44 years old.
I am a Mexican, grandson of immigrants from Europe. One of the things I don't understand about the USA is how easy people seem to relocate over there. It seems to be most easy to go at age 18 and study the university in a city nobody knows you. Then, you get a job at a different state. Two, three times, you move state because you got a job. Then, you settle... And having a family means it's harder to move (although by far not unheard of).
My grandparents moved quite a bit – Out of Europe due to poverty in the late 1920s (they were all born 1903-1910). My mother's family tried luck in rural Mexico, Panama, Peru, then came back to Mexico; my father's only moved from Northern Mexico to Mexico City.
I am married to an Argentinian woman; we met while travelling. Our only choices of where to live was, close to my family or hers. We came to Mexico, as I had a better, more stable work position. And, were we to move away, we would only consider to go near her family.
I stand by what you said, family is a wonderful support system. Going anywhere where your family does not live is a huge cost by itself.
moving simply sucks
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My wife and I make over $100k together and we can't yet afford a 2b/2ba condo in Orange County, CA within a 30 minute commute to work. That kind of place with a garage goes for ~$500k. Thus, if you don't want PMI, you need to have $100k in cash on hand PLUS financial buffer and moving costs. So we rent. We pay ~$1,845/mo for our 1b/1ba. And there's a catch-- lease renewal increases are around $50, but the increase is lower than the ~$90/mo annual market rental increase over the last few years. So, if you want to move, you're almost guaranteed to be moving into a more expensive apartment.
And there still isn't any inventory to buy. There are too many people buying to turn around and immediately rent out those places.
So, despite out income and despite our savings, we're staying put.
The SJW Planners really hate that. Nice suburb, great amenities, good pay...unacceptable!!!
All people must be corralled in big cities where they can be watched and controlled.
The BIGGEST problem in the US is the over-regulation of residential building in the most productive cities that keeps the housing supply artificially low.
In the study "Why Do Cities Matter? Local Growth and Aggregate Growth", the authors show that lowering regulatory constraints on housing in high productivity cities like New York, San Francisco and San Jose to the level of the median city would expand their work force and increase U.S. GDP by 9.5%. That is three or more years of current economic growth rates "for free".
Increasing density in these cities is simple. For example, see these reasonable designs for enhanced density while maintaining green space and livability. You don't have to be like Toronto with 37 residential towers over 46 stories. You can achieve a density of 100,000 people per square mile using a mix of buildings up to 8 stories tall.
To see how screwed-up things have become, 40% of buildings in Manhattan would be illegal to build today, because of height, too many residential units, or too much mixed-use between residential and commercial.
More people living in the most productive cities will also increase the tax bases there, allowing for more investment in transport, education, etc. However transport needs would decline (or at least stay the same) if most new residents live inside these cities instead of the distant exurbs.
with the exception of increasing the size of compliance departments at all banks.
The reason the housing bubble occurred was a failure of two government regulatory bodies OTS and the SEC.
OTS should have never allowed the lax loan underwriting to occur, and the SEC should have never let banks and wall street securitize the crappy loans.
Dodd-Frank wasn't needed to prevent the disaster - competent regulators were needed.
What does "Psychologically, this also means that young adults are more stuck with their personalities and faded of memory compared with their more mobile peers" mean?
"tuck with their personalities"?
"faded of memory"?
Is this a bad translation from Russian?
Are you sure it wasn't "#1 you have the bridge, i'm going to France to grow grapes"
Aww, poor virgin.
Aww, rich virgin.
FTFY.
Being married does not save on taxes.
Kid-proof tablet..
I've been trying to move to CA from the Midwest for years now (my wife's family is in CA and she needs to take care of an aging parent), but it's tough since no company is willing to pay for a move unless you have a very specific skill they're looking for that they can't find locally (I'm very good at my job, but I'm nothing special as far as skills go). Trying to interview long distance is also difficult, even with things like Skype (assuming they even will do it). Our current options appear to be either A. Blow our life savings on a move across country and hope I can get a job before we go broke, or B. Find a company that is willing to hire long distance and hope they don't decide to lay me off before our finances recover from the move. As much as my wife wants to be back in CA, she won't risk our future on it.
I've always been curious about how people are able to jump from one side of the country to the other and support themselves with no problems. Maybe it's because the people who do it are usually young with no real possessions to weigh them down? At my age (40), the risks start outweighing the benefits in many cases.
I was going to post this exact same thing. Just what in the actual fuck is he trying to say here...?
All the more reason to be glad I don't have kids. I've been a world traveller for my entire life. I don't want to waste the time I have left on children, I want to continue adventuring until the day I die.
But, we made it worse by telling them that they should remain forever children. Hell, even the federal government says that you don't have to grow up and take care of your own health until 26. Granted, the DNC, having sold out to big banks, is not dependent on angsty, underemployed millennial "progressives" to prop up votes. Unfortuantely, they're not at all reliable and we got this disaster in the whitehouse instead of our sold out crook.
Being married does not save on taxes.
Not by itself, but there are plenty of opportunities for tax savings, such as-
Low-income + high income salary averaging out to a slightly lower tax rate overall
Low-income partner can take more advantage of Roth retirement plans, maxxing out their plan (up to either the maximum yearly limits, or their own salary, whichever is less).
1 tax return instead of 2, savings on filing costs and time
Transfer of assets tax-free upon the death of one partner in 99% of cases
Benefit shopping between 2 employers, can be used to lower taxes in some cases etc
Even those who arrange and design shrubberies are under considerable economic stress at this period in history.
I wonder how much modern tech plays into this.
In years past, if you took a job in the next city over, you moved. These days, more jobs have options to work from home, wherever that is.
This signature is false.
When they breathlessly proclaim that Millenials are the ultimate nomadic tribe willing to pick up and move at a moment's notice, people forget that the economy supports different types of people. Lots of people like the idea of not being a permanent transient, picking a community and trying to stay in it for an extended period. You'll find way more of these people in the ranks of parents -- unless you're moving for truly greener pastures it's a good idea to keep your kids in the same school system for at least a few years at a time if not their entire school career. I can think of a lot of reasons why moving is less attractive:
Personally, I think the Millenials are just growing up and realizing that there's more to life than working for some web startup cranking out JavaScript or the Googles and Apples of the world 100 hours a week. They might be settling down, getting married, having little "Millenials++" and rediscovering the value of having some stability in life. If you need to move where the jobs are, that's one thing. But if you have a stable situation with a few employers to pick from in case yours flakes out on you, I highly recommend staying somewhere, getting involved in the community and actually putting down roots. Upending your life once every few years sucks, especially if you have a family.
Being married does not save on taxes.
It does compared to being divorced and paying extortion money via child support to an ex that refuses to work...
heh, ask me how I know.
And before someone says something about the CS comment, I have my kids half the time, but I bear vastly over half their expenses, even after 4 years where their other parent could have gained meaningful employment with the 6! (4x 4.0 AS, 2x 4.0 BS) degrees they have.
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Some of the positions listed as Houston may also be available in Dallas. Look real close at my nick and see if you can't guess my name. Put me down as a referral (I've read your posts).
You'd fit in pretty well in College Station too, but there aren't a lot of high-paying jobs there. The ratio of masters and phd students to businesses is too high.
less favorable lending rates
The people wanting to feel sorry for themselves here don't care about your damn facts. Just let them bitch about the supposed less favorable lending rates. I see there are already several who are trying to argue with you by claiming stupid things like "we made bad student loan choices". Maybe we can help get them jobs by having them help build the wall. I suggest that we put them on the south side construction crew and the problem will solve itself when the wall is finished.
I'm an American. I love this country and the freedoms that we used to have.
Look, if you own, you incur transactional costs if you move.
If you live at home with your parents, you need to save up before you can move in with your SO.
If you rent, moving just means ridiculous fees - first,last,clean,moving.
Solution: don't move.
Boomers aren't moving because they either already downsized or the kids are still at home and can't afford to move out.
Millenials aren't moving because the low pay for all but the Elite Inheritors means they can't afford to move and pay higher rent or mortgage.
-- Tigger warning: This post may contain tiggers! --
until their parent do!
I'm 31 and I have no friends; I don't want to move because moving is a pain in the ass.
Seriously, roommates. The first thing I identified before moving out of my parents's house was that roommates are a terrible, terrible idea. You had to learn that the hard way, huh? Unfortunately I didn't identify that my parents would constantly complain I don't visit, or I would have moved farther away; maybe they won't bother asking why I didn't come by this week if I live 5,000 miles away.
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When you are 95 years old and no longer competent, if you don't have kids you are far more likely to end up with someone who doesn't really care about you at all hired (at your expense) by the state to make decisions for you. Kids are no guarantee of course, but they are probably your best bet (if you treat them well) to avoid this fate -- except, of course, blowing your brains all over the wall before you get to that state.
Why is there an "insightful" mod and why isn't it "-1"? If I wanted insight, I wouldn't be reading
Seriously? "bringing more people into an already overcrowded world" is a joke., You most likely don't live in India or China. Instead you likely live in Europe or the US who have near neutral birth rates. Complaining about an 'overcrowded world' in places that really are not overcrowded is just stupid.
we are all invisible unless we choose otherwise
To move from a place with a support structure takes a huge leap of faith, and it really helps if you trust that the company that you are moving for will keep you around for long enough to get your feet into the new place. There isn't that much trust or support out there any more.
Laws are rules for the court, but merely a bottom bar to hit for life. Think beyond laws in your actions always.
If you've lived a full life, are no longer competent and have no one to care for, then why not end your life on your own terms? What is wrong with that scenario? That seems like a more dignified end of life than depending on your children to wipe your ass.
If you don't have to worry about buying or selling a home & can 'just' get a 1/2 - bedroom flat/apartment I'd think this would make people MORE mobile.
I would suggest the lack of mobility is simply yet another representation of how millenials have been coddled by their parents. They aren't being 'kicked out of the nest' to even live on their own (or with friends/roommates) as much & thus don't even have the skills necessary to live on their own (but near their parents) to take the leap to move entirely out of the same local space (e.g. a city or metropolis that may take hours to get back & forth to "Mommy's place where its nice & safe & I don't have to worry about doing everything for myself")...
Seriously, how else do you explain the enormous amount of free time these people seem to have to go demonstrate...who the hell has that kind of time to take off & not work or study or otherwise waste day-after-day.
roommates are a terrible, terrible idea
Maybe that's why you have no friends.
making sure someone has the authority to make medical decisions if something should happen to you.
It's called medical power of attorney, and you do not need to be married to do this.
That suits me fine. Of course, one has to make the call at the right time (or a bit before the right time) and not second guess because of impact it may have on others (such as a spouse who has made a different choice but is still somewhat aware).
Why is there an "insightful" mod and why isn't it "-1"? If I wanted insight, I wouldn't be reading
Hmm, I forgot that line but its a bit appropos to myself ...my personal 'biological imperative' has never been particularly strong, that is I'm not driven to ensure that my personal genetics survive (I have brothers and they've done the 'family gene pool' work) & I've never believed you should bring a child in to the world unless your 100% ready to support ALL the needs of that child above your own, ok maybe 90%. At least without EXPECTING the world to help you (e.g. free day care, paid time off for child rearing, paying for their education etc.)...
But circumstances resulted in me taking care of a young man (16 years old at the time, now almost 20) that isn't biologically connected to me & not what you'd say would be expected from the brief 'personal' relationship I had with his mother...ultimately he was/is a good young man, his mother wasn't in a good position to continue to fully take care of him & had to go off & take care of her own dying mother...so I put him up. He's 'kept me young' so to speak so I have benefited from this relationship (and no don't go all 'pervy' on this)...THAN even more unexpected things occurred. I figured he needed his mom back in his life 'eventually' (the biological father isn't relevant...proving my point above btw) & she did come back...with a brand new baby in tow (don't ask)...so now I have a new born (relatively...almost a year)...its FUN having her around and I'm now at least able to feel confident I can help raise the little one without struggling...it's not my responsibility by any means but again she's fun, provides me enjoyment & since I can help financially it seems like a fair trade...
Maybe other people have some magic whereby they can plan their life, find someone who they 'know' they'll be with 'forever' (cough, cough), have 100% confidence they'll always be on good terms regardless of what happens & thus somehow figure they can bring kids in to this world knowing they have it all planned out perfect..me I lost my crystal ball when I was born I guess because I fail to be able to plan at most a week in advance with some accuracy...planning for YEARS in advance seems like an utter crap shoot to me.
making sure someone has the authority to make medical decisions if something should happen to you.
It's called medical power of attorney, and you do not need to be married to do this.
True, but it helps if there's someone you trust to do that.
Slow down, cowboy! It has been 4 hours since you last posted. You must wait another few hours.
To find land farther from other people while still being close enough to get modern necessities every few weeks.
Sex? Has anyone mentioned sex yet? Oh wait, I forgot where I was for a minute...
I have to strongly disagree with you. Having kids is one of the best investments that anyone can possibly make. I understand that some of your emotion is motivated by sincere concern for the way we collectively are mistreating our planet. I share and wholeheartedly agree with those concerns. I think that to say the world will surely disappoint your children is to ignore both the historical evidence and the amazing trends happening around you right now. We live in a time where we have luxuries that would have been considered magic just a couple hundred years ago. By pretty much any objective metric the world is becoming a measurably better place. For just one article on this, there are some good plots here: http://www.businessinsider.com/the-world-is-becoming-a-better-place-2014-10
As for the environment, wind and solar power are finally approaching cost parity with fossil fuels (or better!). Many countries are investing heavily in renewable energy sources as opposed to continuing to burn fossil fuels. We as a species have a track record of striving to improve the efficiency of our use of resources to care for ourselves and our offspring. I am certainly not saying that this is easy, there are many technical challenges that our children will have to struggle through. However, we are fortunately able to make self-replicating super computers capable of adaptive problem solving for a mere $100K or so. Even the most expensive supercomputers are not capable of the level of abstract problem solving that well trained humans can achieve. If you want the future to look brighter, you need to invest resources in improving the capabilities of the young minds out there--whether they are your offspring or not. If you look at education as an investment in a society's future, it has an extremely high rate of return. If the young minds that you are investing in happen to be your own children, you are in a unique position to impart on them a sense of awe, wonder, and respect for the world we live in, and to fill them with a thirst to solve the complex problems that face our society. I doubt there is a single reader on Slashdot who does not understand the satisfaction of finally figuring out a difficult problem.
Also, I am somewhat curious as to what you mean by "the good life"? It does not take a tremendous amount of money to find joy in life. It is also much easier to find joy and satisfaction if you are supported by a strong social network. (There are many quantitative studies on this.) Family is one of the best ways to achieve this, though there are of course many others.
We have an opportunity to make this world a better place. I would argue that those of us financially well off enough and technically savvy enough to be posting on Slashdot are probably uniquely blessed with an ability to make a difference in the world. Let's work together to make that happen.
They house price to income ratio is almost double what it was in the 80s.
Duh, if people are making the same amount but houses cost almost twice as much, they won't buy one. If they find one they can afford, they probably won't move.
If you think of the house price to income ratio as metric to determine the "value" you are getting for buying a home at market prices that year, value has dropped substantially. Unless, of course you think the price to income ratio can go up indefinitely.
The Economist has some great interactive charts. http://www.economist.com/blogs...
Living together (common-law marriage) grants you all the same benefits but on tax day you get to claim your individual deductibles. Additionally, lower income partners could qualify for food stamps and all sorts of government aid while if you're married your combined income usually puts you over the limits. Obviously if you have a partner without income, then you qualify for all sorts of additional tax breaks if you claim them as dependent.
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Anyone that has kids has pretty much forfeited their ticket to the good life.
I counter your assertion with the opposite: Anyone who doesn't have kids has forfeited the greatest experiences life has to offer.
I've raised (or am still raising) four kids. The youngest is 15, the oldest 23. They're not perfect kids, by any means. Being a parent has been -- by far -- the most challenging thing I've ever done, and I think I've done some hard things. It's also simultaneously the most heartbreaking and most incredibly rewarding. There's a lot of truth in the idea that the deepest joy to be found in life comes from serving others, and there is no deeper, more thorough, more enduring or more dedicated service than that a parent gives to a child. I don't think the biological link has anything to do with it, either; raising an adopted baby to adulthood would be the same (I didn't do that, but I know several who did raise both biological and adopted children).
What it's about is caring for another human being from the time they're completely helpless until the time they can become independent and succeed on their own, and on their own terms. It's about loving them and building a unique and very human bond. And when I say "unique", I mean that it's different for every parent and child. My relationship with each of my children is very different, because they are very different people. It's about living through their heartbreaks and joys, their failures and victories, and supporting and encouraging them through it all. It's also about teaching them the ways of the world, and about right and wrong and good and bad.
Oh, life certainly has a lot to offer those who don't have children. I've been economically successful enough that my wife and I do a lot of the things that DINKs do and enjoy. We do have the "good life". We have hobbies, we travel and we have nice things, and all of those are good.
But all of those experiences are... shallow. Nothing like the challenges and joys of raising children. I make enough money that I didn't really have to choose, but if I did, knowing what I do, I'd take the kids and give the "good life" a pass.
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Lololol. "Technically savvy enough" to post on Slashdot? How stupid can you be? It takes nothing to post here, and the typical nerd is a shitty person who has no ability at all to make any impact on the world. Make it a better place? Lol. The world is what it is, and a bunch of losers with walmart-bought compyootahs is not going to change anything. Ok, maybe we'll have a few laughs at your expense (as always) but that's it. Go back to your basement, nerd, before we stick you heads-down into a waste bin. Es claro, nerdinho?
If you really feel that having kids is "dumb", then you should do everything possible to avoid getting yourself into that situation.
Honestly though? A whole lot of parents out there, if they were 100% honest, would admit that they had their first kid without putting a whole lot of thought into all the "pros" and "cons". They took the view about the financials of, "We'll find SOME way to make it all work out." and their partner probably helped prod them into taking the plunge (if it wasn't more of an accident or carelessness causing the pregnancy in the first place).
And yet, once you find yourself in the situation -- you just kind of throw yourself into it, partly out of a sense of personal responsibility for your actions/decisions, and increasingly, because the whole thing becomes more comfortable. And at that point, you might decide you both want another kid too. (That starts making more sense after the first one because you can re-use a lot of the stuff you bought that the first one grew out of, AND the two kids will keep each other company so YOUR personal attention isn't demanded of them quite so much of the time.)
There's no doubt kids are expensive and often a stressful, disappointing experience. But it's ALSO just as true that the so-called "good life" isn't all it's cracked up to be either. Sure, you might enjoy it for a while. But eventually, almost anything gets old and dull. Give yourself 20 or so years of being single or dating people with the "child free by choice!" attitude, and you might find you start asking yourself what your life's real purpose is. Are you just another consumer on this planet, doing all the things marketed to you as fun, trendy and entertaining? What will people remember you by after you're gone?
The answer is going to be different for different people. But a majority of people I know eventually feel a need to "leave their mark" on this Earth. Sometimes, that comes in the form of building things. A buddy of mine got into furniture-making for this reason. He liked the idea that even after he's gone, people will still be using his dressers or beds or cedar chests each day. But raising another human being is kind of the ultimate "build" to leave behind. You created LIFE ... another person who can talk about you and will actually remember you after you're gone. And even though they'll do their own things (not YOUR things), they do all of it with your influence on them.
Who the hell expects decent results over a 1 year scope? Most mortgages are what, 5 year minimum? They should have molded the data as such:
Have you changed addresses in the past 5 years
o YES
o NO
Do you plan on moving in the next 1-5 years?
o YES
o NO
Yeah, looking at the headline, "nobody is moving" if 20% move yearly, compared to historical rates around 26%, where, presumably, "everybody is moving?" That doesn't look like all that much of a difference.
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I look at my own situation, growing up in Gen-X, where today's millennials insist I supposedly "had it much better than they do". I just don't see it?
I had to live with my parents until I was in my early 20's. Couldn't afford the expensive colleges out of state, so I attended the local community college that was only a few miles from my parents' house.
My job options ranged from telemarketing for a carpet cleaning firm to working as a bench computer tech for small "mom and pop" computer stores. (Most of which paid little more than minimum wage and always found ways to screw me into working extra hours without compensation.)
When I did move out, I shared an apartment with a female friend. (No romantic relationship going on... just a friend who was dating one of my best friends at the time.) That ended badly when I lost my job and couldn't find another one quickly enough to cover my share of the rent on time. I got another job 2 weeks after I was kicked out and had to go back to my parents place again. THAT was a fun conversation....
It really wasn't until I was almost 30 years old that I got a real "career job", and even that was very much a "who you know" thing. (An old friend of mine was in management there and agreed to hire me part-time, temporarily. I was then able to impress enough other employees with my work ethic so they pressured him to give me a full time job. He really didn't want to, out of fear people would accuse him of favoritism -- but eventually gave in.)
And like hell any of us can afford to housing.
You're very likely to be disappointed in marriage if those are the reasons you choose to get married.
Who are you to decide what the good life is? I'm pretty happy raising a child. In fact, I am attempting to make her a halfway decent human being so she can do her part to save the rest of us.
Uh huh, and who's going to support the society when you're retired and bring no economic value? Maybe we should have a system of mandatory death sentence for idiots like you. You see, you're the same type of morons who block immigrants and support the status quo (because you know, you're going to die anyway), and generally bring net harm to the human specie and its future. Don't want to have kids? Fine, shut the fuck up and get out of the way, so the rest of us can plan a meaningful future.
Have you ever expected less than stupid from an AC?
-- Sometimes you have to turn the lights off in order to see.
Rather long post to say you're a cuckold.
Anyone that has kids has pretty much forfeited their ticket to the good life. Why anyone would waste hundreds of thousands of dollars bringing more people into an already overcrowded world that will surely disappoint them is completely beyond me, particularly when you consider the mobility and quality of life you will be sacrificing to make this happen simply to follow a biological imperative.
You sound like a kid that doesn't want to share his toys. Thankfully, it sounds like you won't be raising another version of yourself, AC.
The Daddy casts sleep on the Baby. The Baby resists!
Not all roommates are terrible. Some roommates are terrible. Others are fine.
Do not look into laser with remaining eye.
Are they talking about moving from one residence to another or moving away from a computer? I stopped preferring typing over talking 2 decades ago when I realized that it takes at least 5 minutes to type what you can say within 1 minute. It's worse with phones. Texting is even worse than emails. Millennials are not zombified without a reason. They are just communicating less efficiently. So it takes more of their time to say what genX-ers still knew how to do: simply talk.
Any guest worker system is indistinguishable from indentured servitude.
My kids are my best friends... adventure buddies. And now grandkids oh boy!
You mean... coitus?
I'd check again, interest rates for home loans are a lot lower than they were 17 years ago.
http://www.bankrate.com/financ...
Saying cuck in 2017. The Great Meme War is over. You're the /b/ equivalent of that guy still sharing Gangnam Style on Facebook.
I'll be damned if I'm moving, I'm in Australia so landlords can and will increase the rent but /generally/ don't do it as much if you've been there a while, just small little increases.
Had I left my place and shopped around, I have ZERO doubt my place would be 20 to 40% more expensive.
The landlords are loving fucking the rental class, fuck that.
Congratulations. You have removed yourself from the gene pool using your intellect.
That little evolutionary thing that requires reproduction is also a decent reason for having children. I am sure nature will cope with having all the genes of people who didn't want to have children for selfish reasons removed from the gene pool.
Unless they're ghetto kids? You, sir, are a racist. Black lives matter. More black lives matter more.
A thousand times YES!
Congrats, you're the exception. All of my friends that had kids said don't. Then again they are lower income. Everything is easy when you're rich.
Thanks to rent control, I'm paying $300 per month less than market rate.
Market distortions can make it financially disastrous to move, as compared to staying in the same place.
Rent control is one.
Another is, for homeowners, is Proposition 13 in California (and similar laws in some other states). Think of it as "rent control on taxes", designed to keep the skyrocketing housing prices from driving people out of their homes:
- Stay at the old place - get taxed on the price of the house when it was bought (or Prop 13 went into effect) plus a small inflation adjustment.
- Sell it and buy a new house in CA (or the same state etc.) - get taxed on the new house's CURRENT price, plus a small inflation adjustment - forever forward. Then there's being taxed on the hyperinflated price of the house you sold as if it were a lump sum of income, unless you take the once-in-a-lifetime exemption or one of the other income tax rules for switching houses without being bankrupted. And the new mortgage is at the current rates, too, and on a much pricier home.
Moving used to be much less of a financial hit than it is now.
Bantam Dominique roosters crow a four-note song. Once you've heard it as "Happy BIRTHday" you can't NOT hear it that way
because of this: "I make enough money that I didn't really have to choose".
Most folks don't really get to choose. A substantial percentage of the populace has no or restricted access to birth control and well, it's a biological imperative for a reason. Hell, until recently getting knocked up at 30 was a death sentence (Voltaire's mistress wrote of getting her papers in order when she found out she was pregnant because she didn't expect to live).
As someone who never had the shit kicked out of them in life it's easy to see the good in raising a child. For the rest of us (at least 60% if statistics on people with more than $500 in the bank are to be believed) if we're at all reasonable then it seems bat-shit crazy. A horrible thing for both you and the child who will undoubtedly be miserable as poverty inevitably crushes them down like it did their parents...
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It certainly does if one of you is a high earner. Tax brackets for couples are higher than for singles.
27 year old here. This isn't about the vintage of the wine 30 years ago. It's the vintage of the wine now. I happy you lived a good life. I wish your children the best of success.
Cool story bro. Its easy to get rid of your material things when you just have your clothes and a laptop. You don't mention anything about a car, hope the places you go all have good public transit.
Tools for your profession? What's that! Oh right, you don't create anything of value, at least nothing tangible.
So lets compare this to the 80s then.
no internet = no television or radio, not cable just the devices
no cell phone = no landline
So if you lived back then in an empty house with sticks to play with you could be onto something. I mean its so simple, if everyone would just stop spending $50 a month on their phone that 1800/mo rent would be NOTHING.
Get a bike, eat from the trash, live in abandoned buildings! If you're having trouble getting a job you can always sell your body. /s
You can't seriously think everyone is just living it up and never thought of this before. People are doing everything you mention and more and still coming up short. Complaining that the economic situation is due to perceived luxuries is either ignorance or gas-lighting.
So... . you're saying houses are harder to buy now?
You clearly know nothing of "the good life".
The physical act of love?
27 year old here. This isn't about the vintage of the wine 30 years ago. It's the vintage of the wine now. I happy you lived a good life. I wish your children the best of success.
The trick is the same as it was 20 years ago when I was your age: Get an education in an in-demand field, without debt, be willing to work crap jobs to work your way through school and build up experience, be willing to relocate as needed to where the jobs are, and be willing to work hard to get ahead in whatever job you have. Whatever your income is, save 20% of it, adjusting your standard of living if needed. If that means buying your clothes and furniture from Goodwill, driving an old beater that you repair yourself, never eating out, not having nice phones, etc., etc., so be it. Avoid debt, except for buying a home -- and don't buy more house than you can afford, even if that means all you can get is a tiny fixer-upper.
Granted that the economic conditions you face are worse than what I did... but they're not so much worse that it can't be done. In fact they're far better than what my grandfather's generation faced, and probably better than my dad's.
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I've raised (or am still raising) four kids. The youngest is 15, the oldest 23.
That tells us you're not the millennials, but your kids are. The real question is, will your kids do the same?
20%!?! That's a lot of Millennials moving from one divorced parent's basement to their other divorced parent's basement in just one year.
But does it have to be like that? A few years ago I was bitching to my colleagues that the government raised the fees for cigarettes again! I went to a proper site where you can calculate your individual inflation. To my amazement if you have kids the inflation is higher even compared to a heavy smoker living in rented place! The prices of day-care are ridiculous; for someone who grew up in communism where my mom got the 2 yrs full paid maternity leave and then went to continue career and brought more money home than dad all this sounds insane! In a society where everyone has 2 cars and who knows how many laptops, TV's, tablets and phones we cannot spare enough time for for our kids and are struggling to pay the bills! That's like the most massive WTF in the world!
I agree about the overpopulation thing but it seems that even that point is not as clear as I though it was....apparently certain economic prosperity naturally curbs the birth rate....but then the market and government make sure that no matter how many kids you have [including none] you will spend all your money [no use to save them anyway - they made that unprofitable too didn't they?]. The inflation calculator showed clearly that the raise of prices was the highest for things we either cannot go without - housing, energy, fuel, medicare, education or are addictive like smoking and drinking. Whea, what more can I say....that's fucked up!
Until you get divorced that is....trust me with an income larger than 80% of the population of one of the most prosperous countries in the world I am counting every penny due to my father [drank the family money; left only debts] and my ex-wife. And I'll have to pay to keep my income and the one of my ex equal for the next decade [new law against the dirty men who make more money that the oppressed women]. In fact they have prevented me to ever have a relationship until I am too old to care....Cheers!
Plastic bag full of Nitrogen over the head for me.
It's far less messy for the poor sod who has to deal with my decomposing corpse.
Assuming of course, that by that time, the State hasn't decided that all these old people are too much of a burden and offer the Soylent Green way out.
Yes, roommates suck. I've had to do it quite a lot when travelling for work as a contractor.
And I moved to the other side of the planet. I only see my mum every few _years_.
All roommates are terrible because having to interact with anyone continuously for an extended period is terrible. Dogs are the best roommates; cats if you have to leave it alone all day.
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I have lived in the same apartment for 9 years. There are 2 reasons for this. First, I can't afford to move due to a lack of full-time employment that is needed to save enough to cover first/last rent + moving expenses. My only backup plan is to cash out a paycheck and split in the middle of the night to drive back (cross-country) to move in with my parents again. Second, I really like where I live. Thanks to the Internet, I did considerable research over a period of 3 weeks before selecting which apartment complex to move into. I hit a grand slam for location, security, and amenities.
Bonus excuse 3: I don't want to move unless it is to someplace with affordable FTTP Internet service.
Bonus excuse 4: I can't fit all my crap in my car like I could when I originally moved. The curse of buying furniture.
As for Millennials, I have 2 cousins that are in that age group, one just finishing college and the other just starting. The one that finished college did so half-way across the county to get away from his parents. The other cousin is doing the same. Neither of them have any desire to live at home and want to live their own lives how they please. It doesn't help that my Uncle and his wife were the stereotypical helicopter parents that controlled their lives leaving them little freedom to grow up and experience the real world. They grew up with deep resentment that is helping push them away. Good for them!
you are a sad man.
There are only 7 states that recongize common law marriage (http://www.ncsl.org/research/human-services/common-law-marriage.aspx). If you don't live in:
Colorado
Iowa
Kansas
Montana
New Hampshire
South Carolina
Texas
Utah
then you might want to have a contract in place if you plan to take advantage of the benefits of marriage, and there are quite a few. Even if you do live in those states, many of them only recognize common law marriage if you actively advertise your relationship status as married.
Thank you for the most thoughtful, tender, meaningful post I've seen on Slashdot in many years.
No doubt your children will be fine people.
I think it means young adults are less able to enhance their personalities through diverse experiences and have less vivid memories due to the inability to experience new things . . . it doesn't make sense at all, however.
they have
You have a gender-neutral ex?
Crazy real estate market that has been growing and growing, with demand outstripping supply in areas of Massachusetts and New Hampshire.
What crappy country do you live in where parents can still leave debts to their kids? We did away with that 200 years ago ...
Basements are really hard to move.
I always wondered why they didn't use phlebotomy as a method of execution.
People give blood all the time. Just make it a mandatory donation of 5 pints...
That trick doesn't work even as well as it did 20 years ago.
Get an education in an in-demand field? I've seen people do that and come out of school to a terrible job market, because they had to commit years in advance and lots of other people graduated in that field. Get an education in a field that you're interested in with at least reasonable job prospects. Long-term, it's a better choice, and likely in the short term also.
Without debt? Have you noticed what tuition has been doing? It's harder to get through without debt. We're well off, so my son graduated with no debt, but not all students are that lucky.
Work crap jobs to go through school? The big problem here with crap jobs is that they pay minimum wage, and that isn't what it used to be. Taking in less money and paying out more doesn't necessarily work. Moreover, if you delay graduation a couple of years to be without debt, that's an extra two years you've worked crap jobs for crap pay. Student loans can be economical in comparison.
It's nice to save 20% of your income, and if you're not married you can probably get away with it, but when you have a family the pressure to spend more can get very large. You do NOT want to save on housing to the point your kids go to crap schools. Living by yourself with a low standard of living can be depressing, and that can be dangerous.
Unless you're about my age, your grandfather lived in a period with more accessible jobs, lower tuition, higher minimum wage, and lower housing prices (in constant dollars, of coure). (My grandfathers were raising kids during the Great Depression.)
Your plan is reasonable when it works, but it simply isn't going to work for everyone.
"When you have eliminated the unacceptable, whatever is left, however improbable, must be the truthiness" - Holmes
And no, birth control is not readily available and cheap in most of America. It's easy to get short sighted and focus on the far West & East ( California and upstate NY) and ignore the mid-west, the south, and even Florida. Hell, my 18 year old kid's birth control pills are $60/mo without insurance. I've got an above average job that covers them but it also costs $500/mo in premiums. Not exactly what I'd call affordable.
As for available, again, try getting it down south. There's an entire religion that thinks it's a sin and works hard to keep it out of folks hands. In a lot of places they're winning.
Step out of your shell and you'll find the world at large is a much, much worse place than you think it is...
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It's called "common law" because it predates US law and it is often argued and recognized via Article 4 of the Constitution. In some states, you merely have to have visited a state where common law marriage is recognized for it to be upheld as such.
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Not sure if I fall in the category of millennial, but I have moved about 4 times in the past year. Only one time did my company pay for it, but that was for the most expensive move so I am certainly thankful for that. I feel like moving around is the only way to have opportunities in this messy economic situation, and because when I lost my last job I was willing to move my company was prepared to help me. Everyone had bought houses thinking the job was going to be good for the long term, and were proven wrong when the bubble they were in popped rather abruptly.
I love how everyone is using these to blame jobs etc...
Consider.
It is the first generation (I being in the one previous to that) that has never been more connected VIA the internet and various other pieces of technology than ever before. So people are surprised in a 6% change in physical movement? There is much less need for movement so there is less.
Second, is that the trend for sometime has been more and more urbanization. If you already live in an urban center there is also much less need for movement.
Anyway I am sure jobs, and economy factors into it as well, but it is far from the whole story.
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