Microsoft Locks Ryzen, Kaby Lake Users Out of Updates On Windows 7, 8.1 (kitguru.net)

Artem Tashkinov writes: In a move that will shock a lot of people, someone at Microsoft decided to deny Windows 7/8.1 updates to the users of the following CPU architectures: Intel seventh (7th)-generation processors (Kaby Lake); AMD "Bristol Ridge" (Zen/Ryzen); Qualcomm "8996." It's impossible to find any justification for this decision to halt support for the x86 architectures listed above because you can perfectly run MS-DOS on them. Perhaps, Microsoft has decided that the process of foisting Windows 10 isn't running at full steam, so the company created this purely artificial limitation. I expect it to be cancelled soon after a wide backlash from corporate customers. KitGuru notes that users may encounter the following error message when they attempt to update their OS: "Your PC uses a processor that isn't supported on this version of Windows." The only resolution is to upgrade to Windows 10.

Comments

Surely not the only solution.

[Rockoon]

I'm sure someone will release a CPUID hack to pretend to be a lower end cpu, much like Agner Fog used when proving that Intel's compiler and the code it produced would shit on both AMD and VIA on purpose.

Re:Surely not the only solution.

[AmiMoJo]

From now on I'll be running Windows in a virtual CPU I think.

The tipping point where it's worth getting everything I need working on Linux has arrived. I'm off to look for ScanSnap drivers.

Re:Surely not the only solution.

[Anonymous Coward]

It also "just" applies to Microsoft(tm) WindowsUpdate(tm), not any 3rd-party-solution. So use wsus-offline on anonther PC. Also, fuck microsoft. We still not gonna use Whindos10.

Re:Surely not the only solution.

[Anonymous Coward]

Also, fuck microsoft. We still not gonna use Whindos10.

But you're on Windows 7 or 8.1... what's the difference?

Re:Surely not the only solution.

[dimko]

As Linux user I use simple approach. half an hour and I know what devices of given type are compatible or not. Simply put, find out if device has drivers on Linux. Ideally generic ones. Some printers and scanners will work out of the box on most distro's. But yeah, this by all means is good news for Linux zealot. More people pissed off by MS - more Linux users at end of day.

Re:Surely not the only solution.

[alzoron]

One way you could get around it with Kaby Lake processors is to pop in a Skylake processor when you want to update.

Re:Surely not the only solution.

[jez9999]

Does wsus-offline let me pick and choose which updates to install? If not, is there anything that does? I have a whole list of updates I block because they're Windows 10 nagware, telemetry, etc.

Re:Surely not the only solution.

[hairyfeet]

Pssst....WSUS Offline or Autopatcher and Bob's your uncle, no need to do any hacking...oh and you're welcome ;-)

Re: Surely not the only solution.

[Anonymous Coward]

There is a difference. If there was not, Microsoft wouldn't press everyone so hard into it.

Maybe it is all the data that they get in 10, but not earlier versions (even the stealth telemetry patches aren't as intrusive as 10: though you should, of course, remove them).

Maybe it is the EULA, where you consent to giving Microsoft any and all of your data, at their discretion, a clause never before present.

Hey, who knows?

Re:Surely not the only solution.

[JustAnotherOldGuy]

From now on I'll be running Windows in a virtual CPU I think.

I switched to Linux Mint a while back and have no complaints. I'm also looking at Chapeau (chapeaulinux.org) but so far Mint works great.

Microsoft just can't help fucking people over and then bragging about it. Incredible.

Re:Surely not the only solution.

[blind biker]

I'm sure someone will release a CPUID hack to pretend to be a lower end cpu, much like Agner Fog used when proving that Intel's compiler and the code it produced would shit on both AMD and VIA on purpose.

Are people so desperate to get Microsoft's malware, adware, DRM, reboots, and other shit?

Re: Surely not the only solution.

[Anonymous Coward]

All my vm's still know the processor being used.

Who is this manufacturer of virtual cpu's that would be a valid processor in 7/8?

Re:Surely not the only solution.

[unrtst]

IMO, using a cpuid hack doesn't seem all that desperate. Assuming one gets created, it seems like it'd easily be the path of least resistance.
* install cpuid hack once, and keep running what you've got with no other issues (until they block that or add some other awful thing)
* use wsus-offline or autopatcher (I've never used either, but it seems like something that'd be an ongoing thing, you'd have to change some existing settings and expectations, and it'd take some initial setup)
* install a different OS (GNU Linux / Mac OS X / etc). This would be difficult for a most people, and there's a large number of people that aren't willing to give up some programs (especially games), and there's a large number of people that would still require use of some of those programs for work / client-specific purposes.
* upgrade to windows 10 - which has even more malware/adware/DRM/reboots/etc.

If I were running windows, I'd be pissed about this. If there was a cpuid hack and I still wanted to keep windows, I'd probably use it rather than the alternatives.

Re:Surely not the only solution.

[rtb61]

There is another way to fix it. Tell Intel their KABY Lake processors are shit because they will not run in windows, so meh, you will not be buying one. Seriously who cares, M$ is utter fucking shite and I am on my last version and anything branded or published by them is out.

Re: Surely not the only solution.

[Highdude702]

Except its nothing like that because Unlike Windows and Intel, Ubuntu would not INTENTIONALLY cripple functionality, On something that would STILL WORK! regardless of the OS version. It should be brought to the attention of the FTC. Its my hardware, I should be able to use it how I see fit. Not you.

Re: Surely not the only solution.

[Anonymous Coward]

Of course they brag about it, why shouldn't they?

Gotta play your strengths after all.

Re: Surely not the only solution.

[Alumoi]

Is is your hardware but their software. They have the right to restrict it to specific hardware.

Re:Surely not the only solution.

[Kjella]

Pssst....WSUS Offline or Autopatcher and Bob's your uncle, no need to do any hacking...oh and you're welcome ;-)

For now... how long until they start putting it in the actual installer? The frog is on half boil, only a matter of time if you ask me...

Re:Surely not the only solution.

[hairyfeet]

How long until they use a LOIC to nuke all Win 7 installs from orbit? WSUS and Autopatcher use the same servers for patches that MSFT's WSUS service uses, you REALLY think they are gonna fuck their corporate customers by shitting on their Win 7 Pro installs? Plus while IDK about Autopatcher the WSUS guys have a "security only" option where they have stripped out anything that isn't a security update, this includes any telemetry patches and any "features" MSFT might want to add like Windows Genuine Advantage and I'm sure whatever bit they try to flip would fall under this heading, probably a "usability update" or "customer experience update" if they follow past examples..

Re: Surely not the only solution.

[Bert64]

Depends on your hypervisor..
KVM presents a generic model of cpu by default, and can be configured to specify any arbitrary processor model with whatever feature set.

The generic cpu is meant to be a common subset of features, so if you have a cluster containing different models of processors you can still migrate between vm images between nodes without having problems.

Re:Surely not the only solution.

[AmiMoJo]

Switching is not going well so far.

My ScanSnap document scanner doesn't work properly. You can hack it so that the button works and it kinda does reasonable scans on one side of the page, but not both. And there is no document management software like there is on Windows.

I use Atmel Studio a lot. Windows only, needs USB drivers for the programmer/debugger. Someone suggested VirtualBox. USB worked once but now it's broken and I can't get the debugger to connect. WINE doesn't even load the app properly. There are no Linux debugging tools compatible with the Atmel debugging hardware.

My sound card doesn't work either. I know. It's a Musiland Monitor. No Linux support.

OPALv2 support seems to be really basic as well, and not very compatible with sleep/hibernation modes.

Beyond that most stuff seems to work fine. I have not tested high DPI mode for 4k/5k monitors yet.

Re: Surely not the only solution.

[Anonymous Coward]

Then they do false advertising because word "buy" implies i own the software. They should use word "rent".

Re:Surely not the only solution.

[Anonymous Coward]

Nobody said it is a painless process. I remember similar problems with programs having no equal when giving up windows 95. In the end tho the gains FAR FAR exceed the loses.

Re: Surely not the only solution.

[Anonymous Coward]

You mean like when they dropped support for x86 CPUs without PAE?

Re:Surely not the only solution.

[Anonymous Coward]

[quote]I switched to Linux Mint a while back and have no complaints. I'm also looking at Chapeau (chapeaulinux.org) but so far Mint works great.[/quote]

And you people cannot see the problem though it sits plainly in front of you. If you need to switch Linux distros every so often then Linux as a whole is a bit crap. Atleast with Windows people are so happy and a version they refuse to move of one to another.

Re:Surely not the only solution.

[thegarbz]

Doesn't solve the root cause of MS not supporting a product that is still within active support. Dropping Windows 7 is justified. Dropping Windows 8.1 is not.

Re: Surely not the only solution.

[Alumoi]

It's not false advertising as they sell you a license, not the sofware itself. Read the fine print.

Re:Surely not the only solution.

[Anonymous Coward]

It really is much more worth to have it in a VM. Especially if you NEED to use Win10 at any point.

Even if you need GPU resources, or some other hardware, you can easily pass them through on any reasonably newish hardware from the past 5 years.
Pretty much most hardware I looked at had hardware emulations support. (i5 motherboards mostly, be sure to check!)
Equally, the Linux kernel just got vGPU support for testing. Eventually, a GPUs resources will be as shareable as CPU resources are right now, regardless of VMs running.
So even if you need intense graphics processing for games or video creation, it can still run there with well over 90-95% native speeds.

Me and a friend already switched to Linux and Win VM.
Few others are looking in to that for a new computer.
Windows is just no longer trustworthy or sane to have installed native. Linux isn't either mind you, but Windows is considerably less trustworthy, and LiInux is easy to deal with in regards to its "issues", unlike Windows where you need to hope and pray that some angelic developer devotes time to ripping Windows apart and patching it.

Re:Surely not the only solution.

[AmiMoJo]

The only problem with WSUSOffline is that they it doesn't so non-security patches. Occasionally there are useful things like improvements to RDP or non-security bug fixes that you might want. Naturally, Microsoft does not provide any kind of RSS feed or other simple way to monitor such releases.

Otherwise it's a great tool.

Re:Surely not the only solution.

[Anonymous Coward]

KDE neon has been a good experience.

Re:Surely not the only solution.

[donaldm]

A useful site that may give you alternative to proprietary software is here but you have to keep in mind that the software that you get may not be a compleat "drop in " replacement for Microsoft Windows-centric software and you may have to do some learning depending on how complex your original software was.

As for hardware well you should always do your homework as to what is Linux compatible although as far as most modern PC's that should not be an issue but there are always exceptions. Actually, why do you need a sound card since Ryzen and Kaby Lake require different motherboards which should come with a decent sound system? My Z170 motherboard which is compatible with Skylake and Kaby Lake has a 7.1 sound system.

If you are an avid PC gamer and crave the latest Microsoft-centric games then basically you are stuck with MS Windows. Of course, there is compatibility software like Wine although you can always use a virtual machine with a version of MS Windows you trust cough! I get around this by having an original FAT PS3 and a PS4.

Re:Surely not the only solution.

[Anonymous Coward]

Do suffer from brain damage? Seriously, I'm sorry if you actually do.

Nobody has to switch distros, they do it because they choose to. Choice is good. Choice is something that is lacking in Microsoft world.

Re:Surely not the only solution.

[Anonymous Coward]

I can't tell if you're really stupid or just really stupid.

Re:Surely not the only solution.

[Anonymous Coward]

WSUS and Autopatcher use the same servers for patches that MSFT's WSUS service uses, you REALLY think they are gonna fuck their corporate customers by shitting on their Win 7 Pro installs?

Yep, that's about right. They will make those corporate customers move to Malware 10 and pay for it.

Re: Surely not the only solution.

[Anonymous Coward]

The license is usually presented as a contract after the fact, which is illegal in any civilized country.

Re:Surely not the only solution.

[Anonymous Coward]

I was thinking the opposite: Calling Microsoft and asking about which desktop OS for a Kaby Lake gaming laptop, and explaining that by desktop OS I mean something that isn't Android, OSX or Windows 8 or 10. See how far the sales person can keep the discussion going without giving up and recommending OSX.

Re:Surely not the only solution.

[Anonymous Coward]

You won't get them anyway. Microsoft has started bundling patches together, so you get the choice between "Security Only" or "Security + telemetry + GWX + advertising".

Re: Surely not the only solution.

[Anonymous Coward]

Then sue them and get your money :)

Re: Surely not the only solution.

[Alumoi]

And it's common knowledge that software is licensed, not sold.
So anybody thinking (s)he buys the software (as in owning it for ever) is either stupid or self delusional.
You own the software only if you develop it yourself (or one of your employees) or if the developer sells his intellectual rights to you.

Re:Surely not the only solution.

[JackieBrown]

You will know to look for linux support before buying stuff. I know as a windows user, you were not looking for this info when you got it originally but going forward it will be easier. If you pick Ubuntu, Debian or one of their derivatives, searching "does this printer work on Ubuntu" will usually give you a quick answer.

I must say, based on your posts here, I am very surprised that you have been using a corporate OS versus an open source one. I would have thought that you have made the switch out of principal.

Re:Surely not the only solution.

[JackieBrown]

He said he was happy with Mint. Having options is not a bad thing.

Re:Surely not the only solution.

[ninthbit]

My ScanSnap works just fine on my Mint install. There is a small add-on daemon you can install to run the push button if you want that convenience back.

Re:Surely not the only solution.

[AmiMoJo]

I've been trying to move over for years, and I do use Linux/BSD in various capacities as headless servers. The problem is always that a lot of the software and tools I use for development are Windows only, and combined with 7 being "good enough" there was a lot of inertia.

Now I'm between a rock and a hard place. Need a new PC, Ryzen looks good but I'm still having issues with Linux for desktop and Windows 10 is unacceptable. I was hoping that the EU would force them to make an N version with the worst stuff removed.

Re:Surely not the only solution.

[AmiMoJo]

I have it working with these instructions: http://www.openfusion.net/linu...

It's not as nice as the Windows setup though. Too much manual intervention involved. On Windows you put the paper in, press the button and it scans it and files it away for you. It's maybe 70% there, but that may be enough since Windows has other problems now.

If I could overcome my pathological hatred of Apple then maybe a Hackintosh would be an option, because a lot of this stuff does at least support MacOS. I don't want to be stuck with another proprietary system though.

Re:Surely not the only solution.

[Grishnakh]

For ScanSnap, you need to buy yourself a copy of VueScan from hamrick.com. That should solve all your scanning problems. It's not free (or Free), but the $20 or whatever is a lot cheaper than a Windows license.

For Atmel studio, that's a problem with embedded design tools in general. You need to keep an old copy of Windows around for that crap. At work, I use Altera Quartus software. It doesn't work on Windows 10 at all. The IT department is pushing to upgrade us to Windows 10. I have no idea how this is going to work out.

Re:Surely not the only solution.

[Grishnakh]

For ScanSnap (as I said in another post but it's buried farther down so I'm repeating myself here), you need to buy yourself a copy of VueScan from hamrick.com. Sorry for the shameless plug, but it's the best solution. (I'm not a customer BTW, but I tried out their nagware version for our ScanSnap at work when I wanted to get it working on Linux and it worked great, except for all the watermarks.)

Even better, VueScan works far better than Fujitsu's own bundled software, which is a horror show. ScanSnap devices have fantastic hardware, but their software is bloated, horrible crap.

Scanning on Linux is one of the problem areas remaining. VueScan does a great job here if you're willing to pay $20, and is a necessity for non-TWAIN scanners like the ScanSnaps. For regular old flatbed scanners, I use "gscan2pdf".

Re: Surely not the only solution.

[Grishnakh]

Exactly. Why shouldn't they brag about it? They can happily fuck over their users with shitty, ugly spyware, and people just keep coming back for more! If it were my company, I'd be bragging about that too.

Sure, this sounds totally sociopathic, but that's how corporations are. Remember, they're only able to act this way because you (plural) allow them to get away with it.

Re:Surely not the only solution.

[Anonymous Coward]

Sadly it doesn't matter now. All current and future updates for Windows 7,8.1 and 10 are cumulative. There's also no hard-changelogs as there were with separate KB numbers, but instead we get a nice list of what was fixed plus a general statement like this (https://support.microsoft.com/en-us/help/4000825/windows-10-windows-server-2016-update-history):

Addressed additional issues with updated time zone information, Internet Explorer, file server and clustering, wireless networking, Map apps, mobile upgrades for IoT, display rendering, USB 2.0 safe removal, multimedia, Direct3D, Microsoft Edge, enterprise security, Windows Server Update Services, storage networking, Remote Desktop, clustering, Windows Hyper-V, and Credential Guard.

Good luck figuring out which files out of the 7.5MB .csv (https://download.microsoft.com/download/E/9/0/E9082A03-4CA2-4B70-8199-7186B12ED123/4013429.csv) are responsible for the changes in this "changelog".

Re:Surely not the only solution.

[stooo]

>> From now on I'll be running Windows in a virtual CPU I think.
You can guess how long that will be supported :)

Alternatively, JUL.
(Just use Linux)

Re:Surely not the only solution.

[Archtech]

From now on I'll be running Windows in a virtual CPU I think.

The tipping point where it's worth getting everything I need working on Linux has arrived. I'm off to look for ScanSnap drivers.

Likewise! The interesting thing is that this may be true for a very large number of users. For years we have put up with sub-optimal results from successive editions of Windows, but because most of us have day jobs which are rather higher-priority, we lived with Windows as long as it sort-kinda worked.

But in the long term, or even the medium term - which Microsoft may be in the process of changing into the short term - we are going to be forced to change. Next time I want a new PC, which may not be for a year or two yet, I will probably go for one of the new AMD processors. As I have resolved never to "upgrade" beyond Windows 7, that will force me to go over to Linux as my standard everyday OS. There are no obstacles that I can't overcome with a few days of effort and a little (a very little) money. It's just that I never felt it was *quite* worth the effort or the money before.

Re:Surely not the only solution.

[Archtech]

As I said in an earlier reply, it may entail some effort and spending a little money. In the scheme of things, buying a new sound card isn't necessarily a huge sacrifice. (Unless you are an aficionado and have a very expensive one, of course).

Another approach would be to buy a completely new computer specified for Linux from the ground up. It would be an investment, but how much money have most of us "invested" in computers to run various editions of Windows?

Re:Surely not the only solution.

[AmiMoJo]

I've been trying to find an alternative to OneNote. There are a few but none are as good... Especially the way OneNote handles drag-and-drop from the web, and has an accompanying mobile app with offline and cloud sync support. Any suggestions?

The soundcard is because the built-in mobo ones are crap. Really what I need is bit-perfect digital out (optical or coax). There is a standard for USB sound cards but it is lacking, so serious manufacturers do their own proprietary interface which needs custom drivers. Maybe I can find a good PCIe soundcard that is supported.

I only play old games in emulators these days so not worried about that.

Re: Surely not the only solution.

[Rob Y.]

But they're not restricting it to specific hardware based on ability to run. I assume these new processors are backward compatible - and can run Windows 7 fine. And they are continuing to support Windows 7 on other, older hardware. So just refusing to allow upgrades to Win7 on new hardware is, I guess, an attempt to keep businesses from sticking with Win7. After all, who else buys a new PC and then downgrades it? Many might like to, but it's not worth the hassle - and where to get a legal copy of Win7 to install (well, I suppose there are ways to do that...).

What Microsoft seems to really want here is for new software to be written to lock businesses into the newer Metro app ecosystem, and businesses aren't having it. So they're using what power they have to force the issue. And y'know what, businesses still won't be having it, because nobody's writing new desktop software these days. Microsoft should count their blessings and accept that they can still coast along on the various bits of WIN32 code that still has their customers locked to them - and figure out how to build on that.

Re:Surely not the only solution.

[AmiMoJo]

Thanks for the suggestion. Seems to be aimed at doing single scans at a time though. The point of having a document scanner is that you just feed in a stack of paper, it scans all of it, OCRs it, gives the files sensible names and allows you to quickly organize the files.

Re: Surely not the only solution.

[Holi]

". After all, who else buys a new PC and then downgrades it?"

Me on every computer I support. We cannot always get windows 7 pre-installed.

Re:Surely not the only solution.

[lsatenstein]

Five years ago I gave up Windows 10 on my computer. I run Linux, and I do my office work, my browsing, my emailing, my graphical design, my programming and games.

There is no need for an obsolete technology like Windows 10.

Re: Surely not the only solution.

[Anonymous Coward]

It's the same family of CPUs. It works as-is. The only reason they're restricting it is to force users to Windows 10.

A dick move no matter how you slice it.

Re: Surely not the only solution.

[Anonymous Coward]

Yes and no. Powersaving frequncy scaling and smt wont work right.

Without patches it will tink the cpu have 16 full cores. I dont think windows 10 has a full fix for that yet.

Re: Surely not the only solution.

[Anonymous Coward]

It's Linux, write a script to do all of that for you. Or hire someone to write you one. Probably get someone on fiverr to bash (no pun intended) out a quick python script.

Re: Surely not the only solution.

[AutodidactLabrat]

You own the license to the product, it must do as it claims it does (within reason) and you may sue and recover damages if it does not
Which, restricting FIXES TO THE LICENSED PRODUCT does not.
Lawyers are going to LOVE this!

Re: Surely not the only solution.

[Anonymous Coward]

There is no choice.

Re: Surely not the only solution.

[Anonymous Coward]

Organize your thoughts better and you will not need one note.

Re: Surely not the only solution.

[Anonymous Coward]

Can't wait to be able to pass through my GPU.

My laptop is less than 5 years old. Any resources to explain how? I have a Lenovo p50 with a Quadro.

I'd like to leave BSD or Linux with Intel video and Quadro on display port passed through

Re: Surely not the only solution.

[cwsumner]

It's not false advertising as they sell you a license, not the sofware itself. Read the fine print.

They lie. Does'nt matter what I seemed to agree to, even if I had.

Even lawyers lie sometimes.

If I buy it and pay for it, then it belongs to me, and they have no control over it unless I allow it. ;-)

Their only right is that I not make "carbon copies" and sell them claiming that it is from them. And, even that right is temporary only as long as congress keeps the law. It's not a "natural right".

Re: Surely not the only solution.

[Anonymous Coward]

Your right. Ubuntu never "INTENTIONALLY" Cripples functionality.

Re: Surely not the only solution.

[Anonymous Coward]

After all, who else buys a new PC and then downgrades it? Many might like to, but it's not worth the hassle - and where to get a legal copy of Win7 to install (well, I suppose there are ways to do that...).

Um, every new Windows PC my rather large multinational company gets is imaged with Windows 7 before being deployed. We've looked at Windows 10, but frankly the thing has proven to be a privacy nightmare. We're not yet sure we can lock this thing down tight enough to meet our corporate and legal responsibilities regarding data protection, and even less sure that some random Microsoft update won't eventually undo whatever hardening we have done. Long story short, we're trying to migrate whatever we can to Linux as we figure out what to do post-2020. This very topic came up in a meeting today, and let's just say that our Linux plans just got accelerated by corporate mandate.

Re: Surely not the only solution.

[Anonymous Coward]

Awesome. Suggest the solution is easy with no resources or examples. Than disappear.

Re: Surely not the only solution.

[Anonymous Coward]

No they don't. If I pay them money for their product, I can use my purchase on anything I want. The same if I buy a hammer, I could use it to dig in the dirt, the hammer maker can't do a thing about it.

If Windows ONLY came tightly coupled into the embedded ROM of Microsoft made machines, then they might be able to make the argument that Windows is only for that specific hardware. As a general purpose, readily available to purchase OS, the buyer can do whatever they fuck they like with it.

Re:Surely not the only solution.

[JustAnotherOldGuy]

What distro are you using?

For good WINE/Windows compatibility, take a look at Chapeau (chapeaulinux.org). It's supposed to run stuff like Photoshop and other Windows applications that struggle under other distros. I haven't tried it myself yet, but it looks interesting.

As for Mint, everything I've tried seems to work- USB ports, my Canon scanner, webcam, etc.

Re:Surely not the only solution.

[Grishnakh]

You sure VueScan doesn't allow this? It's been a while since I checked it out, but I thought it did support most features of the ix500 scanner I was using. But I'm really not sure; I only used the trialware(/nagware) version, and only briefly because the watermarks were unacceptable and I really didn't want to spend $20 for using my employer's scanner on work stuff.

Re: Surely not the only solution.

[Grishnakh]

VueScan is a Windows-esque GUI program; there's no way I know of to script it. Now he might be able to do this without VueScan, following those other instructions posted for getting SANE working on it, I don't know.

Re:Surely not the only solution.

[AmiMoJo]

I'm gonna play with it a bit more. Try to find new workflows.

Re:Surely not the only solution.

[AmiMoJo]

I'll give Chapeau a go, I've been on Mint so far. Thanks.

Re:Surely not the only solution.

[Anonymous Coward]

Except Skylake processors will face the same doom come July, per Forbes' article yesterday.

From the article:
Additionally, while Intel Skylake processors are currently supported on Windows 7 and 8, they won't be from July. So users with those operating systems will also be forced to upgrade in order to keep updates coming.

Re:Surely not the only solution.

[Anonymous Coward]

There is a MS Windows Update tool, originally in Russian, but does have an English translation available. I've used it only on W10 Enterprise (reasons), and it works somewhat well; until I crippled the OS with tweaks so that they can't datamine me, but at the same time, updates refuse to install.

Re:Surely not the only solution.

[JustAnotherOldGuy]

If you need to switch Linux distros every so often then Linux as a whole is a bit crap.

What part of "Mint works great" seemed unclear to you?

Atleast with Windows people are so happy and a version they refuse to move of one to another.

Oh yes, very happy. Happy as could be, which is why they had to force people to switch to it, and people are even happier that it spies on every keystroke, mouse movement, and file access. Super-duper-mega-extreme happy!

Re:Surely not the only solution.

[Anonymous Coward]

Well, with a Mac you should be perfectly fine with Windows 7, given they use Intel's latest and greatest processors from 3-4 years ago.

Re:Surely not the only solution.

[Trogre]

You got that the wrong way around. Why would anyone still be running Windows 8.1?

Re: Surely not the only solution.

[knorthern knight]

For QEMU on linux, typing the command...

qemu-system-x86_64 -cpu help

gives the following list. It has been my experience that you can be certain that a previous version CPU, which is a subset of your physical CPU, will work. However, I haven't always been able to get higher-level-than-my-physical-CPU emulated. There is also the "-cpu=host" option, which simply passes through the host machine's CPU to the VM.

EDIT: Sorry, this isn't quite what the output actually looks like, but I had to do some editing to get past Slashdot's "Lame Filter".

Available CPUs:
486
Broadwell-noTSX Intel Core Processor (Broadwell, no TSX)
Broadwell Intel Core Processor (Broadwell)
Conroe Intel Celeron_4x0 (Conroe/Merom Class Core 2)
Haswell-noTSX Intel Core Processor (Haswell, no TSX)
Haswell Intel Core Processor (Haswell)
IvyBridge Intel Xeon E3-12xx v2 (Ivy Bridge)
Nehalem Intel Core i7 9xx (Nehalem Class Core i7)
Opteron_G1 AMD Opteron 240 (Gen 1 Class Opteron)
Opteron_G2 AMD Opteron 22xx (Gen 2 Class Opteron)
Opteron_G3 AMD Opteron 23xx (Gen 3 Class Opteron)
Opteron_G4 AMD Opteron 62xx class CPU
Opteron_G5 AMD Opteron 63xx class CPU
Penryn Intel Core 2 Duo P9xxx (Penryn Class Core 2)
SandyBridge Intel Xeon E312xx (Sandy Bridge)
Skylake-Client Intel Core Processor (Skylake)
Westmere Westmere E56xx/L56xx/X56xx (Nehalem-C)
athlon QEMU Virtual CPU version 2.5+
core2duo Intel(R) Core(TM)2 Duo CPU T7700 @ 2.40GHz
coreduo Genuine Intel(R) CPU T2600 @ 2.16GHz
kvm32 Common 32-bit KVM processor
kvm64 Common KVM processor
n270 Intel(R) Atom(TM) CPU N270 @ 1.60GHz
pentium
pentium2
pentium3
phenom AMD Phenom(tm) 9550 Quad-Core Processor
qemu32 QEMU Virtual CPU version 2.5+
qemu64 QEMU Virtual CPU version 2.5+
host KVM processor with all supported host features (only available in KVM mode)

Re:Surely not the only solution.

[thegarbz]

Why would they is not a relevant question when we're discussing someone not spending $119 or $190 depending on to which version they wish to upgrade.

Shouldn't shock anyone

[SlayerOfKings]

Why the hell are people shocked? Microsoft first said it was going to do this 14 months ago, way back in January 2016.

Re:Shouldn't shock anyone

[Anonymous Coward]

No, they said they would not support new cpus - thats fine, if they dont want to supply new drivers for new hardware, but thats not what they doing now, they block access to ALL windows updates if you have installed (and obviously got it to work) windows 10 on a new cpu. how is this not simply blackmail?!

Re: Shouldn't shock anyone

[Anonymous Coward]

Because that's not what the word blackmail means.

Re: Shouldn't shock anyone

[Anonymous Coward]

You're right. It's extortion.

"That's a nice PC you've got there. Would be a shame if something happened to it..."

Re:Shouldn't shock anyone

[Sarten-X]

So what exactly did you think "support" was? Do you really think it's limited to drivers?

Never mind the development, testing, and troubleshooting going on behind the scenes for the whole array of CPUs.

Re:Shouldn't shock anyone

[Waffle Iron]

So what exactly did you think "support" was?

Up until now, nobody thought that "support" was the logical inverse of "sabotage".

Re: Shouldn't shock anyone

[gweihir]

Actually, the word you are looking for is "sabotage".

Re:Shouldn't shock anyone

[gweihir]

"No support" means: "You are running on unsupported hardware. Do you want to continue anyways? y/n".
What they are doing is "Your hardware is unsupported. Be fucked." That one is called "sabotage".

Re: Shouldn't shock anyone

[Anonymous Coward]

no, the word we're looking for is "extra crispy", that's how we want Nadella...

Re: Shouldn't shock anyone

[Anonymous Coward]

You say "sabotage", but I say "sabotaj".

Re: Shouldn't shock anyone

[Anonymous Coward]

You said it yourself in your very first sentence!

NOT SUPPORT.

Fucking dense. Fucking, fucking dense.

Re:Shouldn't shock anyone

[Darinbob]

Well Microsoft noticed that Windows 10 was still not on 100% of users computers so they felt compelled to escalate the war.

Re: Shouldn't shock anyone

[evilbessie]

This has nothing to do with shoes...

Re:Shouldn't shock anyone

[thegarbz]

You should check the active support dates on Windows 8.1. effectively you can now run a currently supported Windows on a modern processor and be told support is refused even though their lecture documentation says they are in the active support period.

Re:Shouldn't shock anyone

[guruevi]

The problem is that it's logically the same architecture. Kaby Lake CPU's can boot into CP/M or OS/2 because it has an x86 emulation layer and supports all the instruction sets since the 8088. You may not be able to use all the fancy new things in the CPU, but it will work.

"Not supported" means - we won't work on giving you access to the newest instruction sets (if they have a new AVX or AES instruction set for example), it doesn't mean, we'll add code to check for a CPUID and refuse to boot. "Not supported" means, we won't fix the damned thing if it breaks, not, we'll intentionally break it so you're forced to upgrade.

The problem here is they have to add code to their "unsupported OS" specifically to break things. If they have the time to add and test code to do that, they would have time to properly support it.

Re:Shouldn't shock anyone

[Megane]

"Support" apparently means that you can use your Windows install disk to keep the CPU from falling off the table. Assuming you can actually find an install disk, of course.

Re: Shouldn't shock anyone

[gweihir]

"Booting" an OS has nothing to do with shoes?

Re: Shouldn't shock anyone

[evilbessie]

Sabot is a type of shoe, sabotage was to do with shoemakers throwing their shoes into the machines, which I assumed was common knowledge.

Re:Shouldn't shock anyone

[Tharkkun]

No, they said they would not support new cpus - thats fine, if they dont want to supply new drivers for new hardware, but thats not what they doing now, they block access to ALL windows updates if you have installed (and obviously got it to work) windows 10 on a new cpu. how is this not simply blackmail?!

They didn't say they would no longer be providing technical support for newer hardware. They said they wouldn't "support it". Two different things altogether.

Re: Shouldn't shock anyone

[Anonymous Coward]

Spotted the Asperger's kid...

Re: Shouldn't shock anyone

[gweihir]

Ah, yes, it is? And it has a more generic meaning these days? I though you were trying to be funny. Apparently you have some reality-perception issue instead.

Re:Shouldn't shock anyone

[cwsumner]

Why the hell are people shocked? Microsoft first said it was going to do this 14 months ago, way back in January 2016.

Why the hell are people shocked? Microsoft first did things similar to this, to Windows XP years ago. There were even some reports of them doing it to Windows98 before that!

Funny how it only seems to happen to versions that people like?

Re:Shouldn't shock anyone

[Anonymous Coward]

The problem is that it's logically the same architecture. Kaby Lake CPU's can boot into CP/M or OS/2 because it has an x86 emulation layer and supports all the instruction sets since the 8088. You may not be able to use all the fancy new things in the CPU, but it will work.

"Not supported" means - we won't work on giving you access to the newest instruction sets (if they have a new AVX or AES instruction set for example), it doesn't mean, we'll add code to check for a CPUID and refuse to boot. "Not supported" means, we won't fix the damned thing if it breaks, not, we'll intentionally break it so you're forced to upgrade.

The problem here is they have to add code to their "unsupported OS" specifically to break things. If they have the time to add and test code to do that, they would have time to properly support it.

Well, the documentation for my ASRock Z270 motherboard shows how to update the firmware in DOS.
Although my UEFI settings can read a firmware file off a FAT32-formatted USB drive and self-update.

Retitle

[Anonymous Coward]

Commercial organisation does something in their commercial interest.

This is a surprise somehow?

Re:Retitle

[Anonymous Coward]

It will be a surprise when Intel and AMD play the same shit. Won't happen any time soon
but at this rate they will be forced to respond. There is more than one commercial interest
here.

Testing costs money

[canowhoopass.com]

Microsoft probably has tons of test hardware setup for testing every new update. Supporting new chips on their old OS's would involve a cost to them.

Re:Testing costs money

[Dunbal]

It's one thing to put up a disclaimer saying the chip is not supported and any trouble/bugs/crashes you run into are at your own risk, it's quite another to block the install completely.

Re:Testing costs money

[Anonymous Coward]

While I think that it sucks, there is probably more involved than just the cost of test hardware. There likely must be changes to the old OS's to handle the architectural and driver changes that are needed for the new support chips for the new CPUs. It's probably becoming more and more difficult to find people who understand both the Win7/Win8.1 OS internals (why things are done the way that they are done) and the new CPU and new CPU support chip peculiarities and want to work on the old OS's.

Re:Testing costs money

[currently_awake]

Not having the sheep running spyware 10 costs them advertising revenue and must be blocked.

Re:Testing costs money

[scdeimos]

It's probably due to the DRM push Microsoft named "PlayReady 3.0". Don't know about the Ryzen line, but the only difference in the newest Intel line up is the support for hardware-based DRM which is something required for PlayReady 3.0:

In an effort to placate the studios, Microsoft introduced "PlayReady 3.0" with the Windows 10 Anniversary update. PlayReady 3.0 is a hardware-based DRM (digital rights management) system that requires dedicated decoding hardware, either on the CPU or on the graphics card, preventing the video stream from being captured in software or via an external capture device.

REF: https://arstechnica.com/gadget...

Re:Testing costs money

[Anonymous Coward]

The summary says that they will block future updates on systems that are already running Windows 7, 8.1 on the new CPUs, so either the architectural and driver changes are not needed, or the work has already been done in previous updates.

Re:Testing costs money

[hackwrench]

Sure it "runs" but how reliably? I just bought a used http://support.hp.com/us-en/do... for $100 running Windows 8.0 because the previous owner said it ran slow, and I uninstalled Norton AV, and everything was fine. Now I have it running Windows 10 Insider Preview.

Re: Testing costs money

[Anonymous Coward]

Two of my roommates work on the Windows build team and make $12 per hour. I think you're overestimating the quality of their employees.

Re:Testing costs money

[Anonymous Coward]

>Testing costs money

Damn, you're right. If only Micro$oft had some of that.

Re: Testing costs money

[Anonymous Coward]

We probably know some of the same people. When I left I was making $17 per hour after several years which is about $35k per year. I didn't mind that but Microsoft wouldn't pay us for over forty hours a week even if they made us work more.

Re: Testing costs money

[Anonymous Coward]

You're unfairly picking on Microsoft. Lots of companies refuse to pay more than forty hours a week even if they require you to work more. Here in CA the overtime rules are so complicated and onerous that our lawyers said it would be less risky to just not pay people for time they worked than it would be to pay overtime. The overcomplicated rules and regulations screw employees. Corporations can afford to hire lawyers to interpret the complicated laws, but employees have no hope of understanding all of them.

Re: Testing costs money

[Anonymous Coward]

That sounds like the CA make-up time rules. They're so ridiculously complicated that we let employees take paid time off that they haven't earned just to keep from having to deal with those rules. We got sued after we let someone work 3.25 hours extra one day after taking that time off the day before. That pushed them past the max allowed of 11 hours a day according to the make-up time laws, so we lost a five figure lawsuit.

Re: Testing costs money

[skr95062]

In California the hourly employee gets overtime for anytime over eight hours in a day. Even if it is 6 minutes you better be paying them. Where it really gets messed up is if they work a Saturday. They must have worked 40 hours during the week to get overtime. If they only worked 39 hours during the week, one of the hours worked on Saturday is regular time, the remainder of the time worked that day would be considered overtime. The bad part is that 8 hours of Holiday pay doesn't count as part of the 40 hours worked during the week. So they work the Saturday following Memorial Day or any other Holiday it is straight time.
If the employer gets caught shorting the employee on overtime the employer is going to have a problem.
If your time clock and payroll are done by an outside agency you still have the responsibility to review what you are paying your employees. These outside agencies that do payroll using a time clock and software to manage the clock. They use rounding to do the time calculations of the punches received from the clock. In a previous version that we used where I work I saw an employee clocked for a eight hour day and the software said pay him for 8.1 hours. When you looked at the punches recorded it was 8 hours exactly. The software was rounding up by 6 minutes so it was giving him 6 minutes overtime. We paid him for it, it is much cheaper in the long run. We generally use what the software says, again it is cheaper in the long run to just pay it.

Re: Testing costs money

[Highdude702]

Sounds like your friends need a career change. I string wires around, and i make $22/hr

Re:Testing costs money

[Highdude702]

They can suck a fat one while i plug in my Digital to Analog scaler and STILL RECORD IT!

Re: Testing costs money

[Anonymous Coward]

String wires around whose neck? Inquiring minds want to know.

Re:Testing costs money

[bazorg]

It's one thing to put up a disclaimer saying the chip is not supported and any trouble/bugs/crashes you run into are at your own risk, it's quite another to block the install completely.

Fine, but this policy applies to consumers as well as professional buyers. Why should MS offer to spend time and effort dealing with the backlash of unhappy consumers after they check the "yes, I know what I'm doing" box and 2 years later are writing in support forums that Windows crashes all the time and is worse than Hitler?

When I go to Google Play I occasionally get error messages that are much more vague than what MS is publishing here. The app won't install because my device is incompatible, end of story. If this is good enough for Android, who's going to pay extra to have a higher level of service from Microsoft?

Re:Testing costs money

[thegarbz]

This is a big change from a company that has in the past five out of their way to provide compatibility and ability to try running unsupported stuff in different ways.

Re:Testing costs money

[AmiMoJo]

It can't be that, because Windows 10 supports lots of older CPUs and GPUs that are not capable of PlayReady 3.0.

I wonder what happens if you try to play back a Bluray on a non-PlayReady 3.0 system. I heard that they would limit you to inferior quality audio. Doesn't seem to stop the rippers.

Re: Testing costs money

[Anonymous Coward]

As reliably as it did before.

Contrary to what Microsoft is desperate for people to believe, discontinuing support for software doesn't cause every copy of it to burst into flame (or at least not before Windows 10,their bricking of machines they want replaced will, like with Google before it, be done with a mandatory update). The machines with these chips and chipsets already running Windows 7 will run no worse tomorrow than last week, and arguably may be better off than machines that still get updates, since this makes it a little harder for Microsoft to sabotage them.

Re: Testing costs money

[Anonymous Coward]

They're barely hiding how much they want to control your computer (and all the other computers) anymore.

Re: Testing costs money

[guruevi]

Giving people paid time off doesn't mean they have to make it up somewhere else. Seems to me like your employer is an abusive fuck and got what they deserved. Giving people paid time off in advance is "nice" and your employer wasn't obligated to do that, on the other hand, making them work overtime to make up for paid time off you allowed them or have to give them in the first place is abusive.

I get ~12h/month paid time off contractually, that doesn't mean I am obligated to make it up if I take my time off and if I work beyond 40 hours they do indeed have to pay overtime. I am salaried and my employer would still have to give me ~1h break time per day and if I work more than 8h I would have to get additional break times and I can't be made to work more than 10 or 12 hours/day and 40 hours/week without overtime. The benefit to being salaried is just that I don't have to punch a clock and on the other hand it would be slightly harder for me to prove that I'm being coerced to work more than allowed without being paid overtime.

Re:Testing costs money

[Anonymous Coward]

Or just put a xilinx between the hdcp or whatever decoder and actual pixels if it comes to that? This content protection bullshit is so useless for content protection that it's depressing. On the other hand, for vendor lock-in, planned obsolence and that kind of stuff it might be much more useful..

Re:Testing costs money

[Tharkkun]

It's one thing to put up a disclaimer saying the chip is not supported and any trouble/bugs/crashes you run into are at your own risk, it's quite another to block the install completely.

They aren't locking the install. They stopping supplying Windows updates. Your OS will run just fine without the security patches. At the same time MS doesn't want to spend their time to triage, test and provide OS patches for the new processors which might be required after a monthly security patch.

Re: Testing costs money

[Tharkkun]

Two of my roommates work on the Windows build team and make $12 per hour. I think you're overestimating the quality of their employees.

I'm guessing they are lying and probably sweep the floors.

Re:Testing costs money

[thegarbz]

Yes because forward compatibility is a strict requirement of security updates completely unrelated to media playback ....

If it is due to PlayReady 3.0 it would signal a new level of dumb for Microsoft.

Re: Testing costs money

[hackwrench]

Well then everything should run all hunky dory without any updates then, so no real problems?

Well, butt then

[Anonymous Coward]

you have to move to W10 one day, so why not to-day?

Re:Well, butt then

[Dunbal]

you have to move to W10 one day, so why not to-day?

No, that's the thing you see. You don't have to move to W10. Microsoft wants to FORCE you to move.

Re:Well, butt then

[Anonymous Coward]

Use Linux, no one forcing you to do anything ever again. Might learn something about how computers actually work too. It's not hard, just daunting at first glance. It's an awful lot easier than it used to be, when we where using dip switches and jumpers to configure hardware.

Re:Well, butt then

[sgage]

No, I do not have to move to W10, ever. From this day, I am locking MS out. I realize some people can not do this for various reasons, but I can, and I will. MS has completely lost it, and I don't think they have as much power as they think. We will see. But I will never run Windows 10 on any machine of mine. I was an original 'Insider' from 10/14, and gave it every benefit of the doubt for two years, but it was never going to work for me. No, as far as I'm concerned, MS has just lost it.

Re:Well, butt then

[Anonymous Coward]

Use Linux, no one forcing you to do anything ever again.

*cough*systemd*cough*

Try FreeBSD.

Re:Well, butt then

[Dunbal]

Use Linux, no one forcing you to do anything ever again. Might learn something about how computers actually work too. It's not hard, just daunting at first glance. It's an awful lot easier than it used to be, when we where using dip switches and jumpers to configure hardware.

I guess you're used to talking to Joe Average who doesn't even know why he bought a computer. Maybe that would excuse you. But considering I've been around computers since punch-card days, can code in anything from ASM to LUA, have always built my own rig, have had several installs of linux from slackware through mint and I probably know a great deal more about computers than you do, I find you come off as a tad bit patronizing. Not everyone who uses Windows is a red neck hill-billy.

My statement stands. You however are full of shit. Keeping track of every little nuance of your linux distro is a full time job. If you DON'T stay current, then you have as little choice as to what happens to your linux kernel and distro as any Windows user has over their OS. apt-get update is not going to save you. Open source is all well and good if you're on the coding team for that particular project. No one has time to go through every single fucking line of code for every driver, utility, application, etc. So you end up "trusting" the open source community. Well guess what.....

Some of us would rather skip the illusion of safety and open-ness and get on with our lives without kidding ourselves.

And all of this argument doesn't change the fact that Microsoft is using its market position to force the consumers down a path they don't necessarily want to go.

Re:Well, butt then

[Lead Butthead]

you have to move to W10 one day, so why not to-day?

you'll die one day, why not today?

Re:Well, butt then

[TsuruchiBrian]

Linux doesn't force you to use systemd...

Don't try FreeBSD!

Re:Well, butt then

[hambone142]

I'm beginning to migrate to Linux. When Win7 becomes unusable due to future compatibility issues, I'll make the switch with remaining hardware.

I've already loaded Linux Mint on some hardware and it's not a problem for me except for some wireless printer driver from Canon.

I will not migrate to a new Windows OS due to the mandatory updates, the spyware and the ads within the OS.

In the end, Microsoft will force me to cut the cord to them.

Re:Well, butt then

[hambone142]

My sentiments exactly.

Re:Well, butt then

[murdocj]

I run the O/S that runs the stuff I want to run. That's how people who care about getting stuff done rather than O/S religious zealotry operate.

Re:Well, butt then

[Anonymous Coward]

more importantly, we have to make normal users understand this. Until then, its always an uphill fight.

Re:Well, butt then

[gweihir]

Debian still runs fine without the systemd malware.

Re:Well, butt then

[UnknownSoldier]

> you have to move to W10 one day

I'm also going to die someday too, but that doesn't mean I want it today.

So, BZZZT, no, but thanks for playing! I _already_ have multiple boxes with Windows 7 that work perfectly fine thank-you-very-much. There is no software that runs "only" on Windows 10 that "I need."

I've already migrated my personal dev work to OSX and Linux, so no, Microshaft can go fuck themselves, because I don't want nor need their Spyware they mis-label as Windows 10.

Hell, even at my day job we've been using OSX for the past 5 years and we're a Fortune 50 company. I also know many devs who use Linux. Seriously, there are WAY more OSX and Linux machines then I would have thought possible.

The harder Microsoft tries to force customers to Windows 10, the harder the pushback will be. In Microsoft's quest to force everyone to use Windows 10 -- they forgot the most important thing:

Customers don't NEED it.

There is only 1 name for people who run Windows 10.

Idiots.

Because they sold themselves out. M$ has no respect for you. All they care about is exploiting you. For some of us, MS has stepped over the line.

Re: Well, butt then

[Anonymous Coward]

Wrong. I skipped ME and Vista. They were redundant.

Re:Well, butt then

[See Attached]

Painfully true. I thought RedHat was above that, but they made a mess (IMHO) by sacrificing the Litthe-Nimble for the Monolithic-Obfuscating. Think I am going to do FreeBSD tonight. The straightforward nature .. and single tasking clarity will be refreshing.

Re: Well, butt then

[Anonymous Coward]

Oh shit, how will Microsoft survive without you?

Fucking snowflakes.

Re:Well, butt then

[Anonymous Coward]

But why subject yourself to even having to worry about the systemd Linux debate.
When FreeBSD just keeps on doing what it's doing and never really ripping anything out from under you.
I mean, like one of the biggest changes in FreeBSD was the package system and installer updates. But in the end, it wasn't even really a thing. Read a few man pages, try it out, and you're still crusing.

Linux wastes COLOSSAL amounts of energies gnashing and churning through distro wars all the time.
I don't want any of that.
I want to work.
And play.
FreeBSD lets me do that, in peace and quiet.

Re:Well, butt then

[Anonymous Coward]

Use Linux, no one forcing you to do anything ever again.

OK, I'm sitting at one of my many Linux machines.

Now I need to install all the business software that requires a Windows client that is joined to an active directory domain.

What is my next step to implement your perfect solution, oh one of only correct answers?

Re:Well, butt then

[Trogre]

Hey, me too!

Just one reason I run Linux and not Windows or OSX.

Pretty much all the software I need is only a dnf install away. YMMV.

Well, that and the desktop experience for someone who knows what they're doing is still ridiculously ahead of anything Apple or Microsoft have to offer. Every time I have to use a Mac or Windows 7/8/10 box feels like trying to climb a staircase in a wheelchair.

Even for accessibility, none of the silly utilities on OSX nor Windows come close to the simple Alt-wheel desktop zoom.

This is all on modern hardware of course. The difference in performance is much more profound on older or netbook-grade hardware.

And we don't have to deal with silly crap like licensing or the topic at hand.

But, no, Linux users only use it out of religious zealotry.

Re:Well, butt then

[myrdos2]

If you DON'T stay current, then you have as little choice as to what happens to your linux kernel and distro as any Windows user has over their OS.

Not quite true. I don't care about kernel release notes and distro package changes until they matter. That is, it either breaks something I care about, or adds something I care about. When it comes to things I care about, I have complete control over my own computer.

And that's all that matters to me. (By definition) If I can't configure one distro to suit my needs, there has always been another one available.

No one has time to go through every single fucking line of code for every driver, utility, application, etc. So you end up "trusting" the open source community.

Open source doesn't mean the code is perfect. I don't think anyone believes that. There will always be security holes, whether added maliciously or accidentally, in virtually every operating system I am aware of. But that's not the same as having the vendor introduce unwanted features, or deliberately degrade user experience, or preventing the user from modifying their own settings, or preventing them from running software that didn't come from an approved app store. ...all of which have been done in recent years. It's gotten to the point where it's debatable who actually owns the computer, you or the OS vendor.

I have not seen this to the same extent in open source OSes, even including Android.

Some of us would rather skip the illusion of safety and open-ness and get on with our lives without kidding ourselves.

Safety is never guaranteed with code of any significant complexity. Openness can be.

Re:Well, butt then

[Anonymous Coward]

than I would have thought

http://www.quickanddirtytips.com/education/grammar/then-versus-than

Re: Well, butt then

[Anonymous Coward]

I wanted to love FreeBSD. I harass windows for taking hours to setup, FreeBSD gets the same. That and hours of compiling a DE == failure is not okay with me. I'll work with Linux and play with BSD

Re:Well, butt then

[Anonymous Coward]

There is only 1 name for people who run Windows 10.

Idiots.

You are really not doing Microsoft's efforts to encourage migration full justice here. Microsoft works hard to make sure that Windows 10 users aren't summarily "idiots". A sizable number of them are "victims" instead.

When upgrading cost money and a buying decision, "idiots" was the proper moniker. Now it's like a game of paintball against a foe with something like 80 billion hitpoints, and at some point of time you'll not manage to duck the Windows 10 shrapnel.

Re: Well, butt then

[rl117]

You haven't had to compile for years. "pkg update; pkg install foo", as easy as Debian or Ubuntu.

Re:Well, butt then

[Anonymous Coward]

> come close to the simple Alt-wheel desktop zoom

So you don't even know that Apple has this functionality in his OS since ages ago, right? But even then you know that Linux is much better than OS X. I bet you've never touched a Mac in your life.

Re:Well, butt then

[gweihir]

The driver-situation is much better on Linux. No other reason. When systemd becomes hard to avoid, I will move to one of the xBSDs, but not before.

Re:Well, butt then

[murdocj]

I use my desktop system when I work from home. Since I develop in Visual Studio, amazingly enough Windows is the best environment for me. The other things I want to do like gaming also are simple and easy on Windows, no need to locate packages or deal with conflicts. I've loaded up Ubuntu under a VM a couple of times, both to play around with and to set up an alternate dev environment when doing RoR. Personally didn't find it easier or more friendly that Windows, but as you say, YMMV.

And yes, if you read the posts on slashdot, few of them talk about ease of use, they are all about that "debble M$$$". It sure sounds like religious zealotry.

Re:Well, butt then

[Anonymous Coward]

Good for you. Some of us have real jobs and don't live with our parents. And the real world runs Windows I am sorry to say. At some point you will have to deal with it TM.

Re:Well, butt then

[Anonymous Coward]

> I've already migrated my personal dev work to OSX and Linux ...

It's interesting that OSX is okay but Microsoft is not.

Have you tried running OSX on non-Apple hardware? what about running old versions of OSX on the newer hardware?

As far as I can tell, all this is is just Microsoft trying to catch up with Apple and doing a poor job of how they message it.

Re:Well, butt then

[Anonymous Coward]

Open source is all well and good if you're on the coding team for that particular project. No one has time to go through every single fucking line of code for every driver, utility, application, etc. So you end up "trusting" the open source community.

I think you're attacking a strawman. The claim is not that free software is automagically more secure or more trustworthy.
It's ILLEGAL for anyone to fix proprietary software. That's the important difference.

Re:Well, butt then

[Anonymous Coward]

If you have boxes with win7 then what's the fucking problem? Build a new box run the new os.

Or were you still installing XP on your i7-2600k?

Re:Well, butt then

[Anonymous Coward]

No I don't. I run Linux as my primary OS. I do have a Windows 7 VM, but the only thing I've used it for in years is tax software (which was sadly complicated this year by TaxAct refusing to run in a VM, so I had to use H&R Block's software). Even that's moving online, and after this year my taxes will probably be simple enough to do that way.

So, no I don't. I don't need Wnidows at all, and given how MS has been acting since the Windows 10 release, I'm quite happy about that.

Re:Well, butt then

[Tharkkun]

> you have to move to W10 one day

I'm also going to die someday too, but that doesn't mean I want it today.

So, BZZZT, no, but thanks for playing! I _already_ have multiple boxes with Windows 7 that work perfectly fine thank-you-very-much. There is no software that runs "only" on Windows 10 that "I need."

I've already migrated my personal dev work to OSX and Linux, so no, Microshaft can go fuck themselves, because I don't want nor need their Spyware they mis-label as Windows 10.

Hell, even at my day job we've been using OSX for the past 5 years and we're a Fortune 50 company. I also know many devs who use Linux. Seriously, there are WAY more OSX and Linux machines then I would have thought possible.

The harder Microsoft tries to force customers to Windows 10, the harder the pushback will be. In Microsoft's quest to force everyone to use Windows 10 -- they forgot the most important thing:

Customers don't NEED it.

There is only 1 name for people who run Windows 10.

Idiots.

Because they sold themselves out. M$ has no respect for you. All they care about is exploiting you. For some of us, MS has stepped over the line.

This same drivel was said about Windows XP, Windows Vista, Windows 7 and Windows 8. If you prefer MacOS then good for you. There's a business need for both platforms. If Apple would price their equipment without the Apple tax then their products might actually start gaining market share. But as it stands you pay close to $1200 for the same configuration with a Mac. Only a sheep would continue to do that.

Re:Well, butt then

[Anonymous Coward]

"easy" is always going to be somewhat subjective, but your example was loading up a OS under a VM a couple times, and I firmly disagree with your result. Would love for you to try a simple experiment:

* create 2 VM's. One for ubuntu, one for windows (whatever version you want)
* do an install on both, reboot and log in, and then bring the system fully up to date
** (hint: on ubuntu, you can just run, "sudo apt-get update && sudo apt-get upgrade && sudo /sbin/shutdown -r now")
* then tell me which one was easier

Then turn them off and wait a few months. Then turn them back on and bring them up to date again. Again, which was easier?

How about installing a common program on both? 7zip is pretty common and simple. Install is one command on most distros. For ubuntu, it's just "sudo apt-get install p7zip". Or maybe putty, in case you miss pointing-clicking to ssh? Again, very easy, "sudo apt-get install putty". What are the steps to do those on Windows? Anything more complicated than those and you'll often have to restart windows too.

How do you get updates for those (very common) programs you installed? I'm aware that, if you got them from the windows 10 app store, then they'll get updated with the system updates. That would be on par with how nearly every program is updated on nearly every LInux distro. Otherwise, you'll either have to run the application supplied updater (ex. adobe's awful one) or manually update whenever there's an update. IMO, maintenance and updates are also easier on most Linux distros.

If you were talking about certain games, CAD stuff, many big proprietary programs (ex. photoshop, MS IIS, etc), AD integration, support for cutting edge or niche hardware (ex. leap motion), then it's a different story. But a ruby on rail dev environment?!?!? Seriously? I call BS.

Re:Well, butt then

[Waccoon]

There is only 1 name for people who run Windows 10.
Idiots.

Way to get people to feel comfortable with the Linux community (one of its greatest stumbling blocks). Pretty much by definition, only half the population consists of idiots, and Microsoft has 90%+ of the desktop market. You do the math.

What next? More banter about Democrats calling Republicans racist? I'm sure that will help.

Re:Well, butt then

[Anonymous Coward]

Good for you. Some of us have real jobs and don't live with our parents. And the real world runs Windows I am sorry to say. At some point you will have to deal with it TM.

I don't live with my parents, I work at a Fortune 500 company, and I work in a Linux environment all day, every day--right down to my corporate-issued desktop and laptop which both run a flavor of Linux. Since I guess I don't live in the real world, I think the real story in this article is that Slashdot has proved the multiverse theory while simultaneously creating an interdimensional communication medium.

Re: Well, butt then

[Anonymous Coward]

Install VirtualBox.

You should be able to figure out Step Two from there.

Re:Well, butt then

[Anonymous Coward]

I will have to run it at work for complete compatibility/fallback purposes, but Linux is my preference for work and home. I agree with ya; Microsoft has just lost it.

Re:Well, butt then

[Trogre]

You develop Windows software, so perhaps Windows is the right platform for you.

I am in video production, web page design, mobile platform development and system administration, and Linux works best for me.

You're right that on Slashdot most pro-Linux posts are philosophical, but this isn't exactly the most pragmatic forum around. And that's probably a good thing.

Re:Well, butt then

[Anonymous Coward]

What you do know with Linux is that the protocols between components are well defined and known maintainers maintan pieces of code that do only what they say they do.

Except with systemd, which contains a ton of code that does stuff that used to be done by specific daemons everyone knew how to run.

Re:Well, butt then

[Anonymous Coward]

See, the thing is, we've seen the actual results of FOSS. This is a tested proposition. FOSS proponents like to carry on about how great openness is, both in theory and in fact. Yet none of that prevented the following:

KDE 2
Gnome 3
PulseAudio
systemd
GNU Hurd

Yeah, don't bother with the defensive talk (it's just a licensing issue! Fork the code!). Also don't bother with aggressive rants about Freedom Man! And you can dispense with angry rants against Microsoft.

You see, the point is that FOSS has failures too, but the proponents downgrade or ignore those failures. Meanwhile they upgrade the failures of proprietary software, often to the point of ridicule. Just which year is the Year Of Linux On The Desktop again?

FOSS has many successes. That's the good part. The problem is, far too many FOSS proponents are like religious True Believers. It's not enough that FOSS is successful and useful, oh no! You have to Believe, Brother!!

Meanwhile proprietary is successful and useful too, but again, not good enough for the Brethren. Microsoft is the Great Satan, beware the cloven-hoofed, horned one my child!!

Haha joke's on them.

[Anonymous Coward]

I'm still running Vista!!!

Re:Haha joke's on them.

[Anonymous Coward]

not for long - all vista pc's are going to catch fire on april, 12th....

Regression Testing and Stability anyone?

[Anonymous Coward]

While there are a lot of financial aspects behind it, there is also the technical stability, optimization, and hardware drivers that would need to be built and tested. It isn't that the old version like DOS won't run, they just won't get patches either.

While they could continue to push patches to new hardware (just like old) there is also the fact their reputation gets lower if the new patches make the OS run worse on new hardware.

so go use linux?

[known_coward_69]

Windows 7 is almost 10 years old at this point. how long should MS support it for?

Re:so go use linux?

[Dunbal]

I will gladly run it unsupported. Just because Microsoft pulls support doesn't mean the OS suddenly stops working. In fact, I've been running with windows updates off for well over a year now so "support" for win 7 is irrelevant to me.

Re:so go use linux?

[sexconker]

How about until the agreed upon 1/14/2020 or whatever date in our fucking contracts?

They're blocking newer CPUs from accessing Windows Update and preventing them from downloading critical security patches. These patches do not require additional testing or development to work on PCs with the newer CPUs, and the newer CPUs do not magically make the gaping security holes go away.

Re:so go use linux?

[Anonymous Coward]

If the "upgrade" wasn't total garbage then 10 years woudl seem enough. But Vista, 8.0, 8.1, and Win 10 are all garbage. So they can support Win 7 for as long as they want, but when it ends, we all move to Linux, because Windows is garbage now. Too bad, because I've been using it since 2.0. But have no interest in their ad driven bullshit. Therefore Linux.

Re:so go use linux?

[quonset]

Windows 7 is almost 10 years old at this point. how long should MS support it for?

My car is over 10 years old. How long should the manufacturer still support it? At ten years of age do they say, "Oh sorry, we won't service it any more."? "Cracked windshield, blown muffler? Yeah, that's too bad. We don't carry what you need and oh by the way, you can't go to a third party and get it from them either."

Re:so go use linux?

[slew]

Windows 7 is almost 10 years old at this point. how long should MS support it for?

My car is over 10 years old. How long should the manufacturer still support it? At ten years of age do they say, "Oh sorry, we won't service it any more."? "Cracked windshield, blown muffler? Yeah, that's too bad. We don't carry what you need and oh by the way, you can't go to a third party and get it from them either."

Actually, car manufacturers don't legally have to support their cars after 10 years either... Most of them do, but they don't have to.

Re:so go use linux?

[Anonymous Coward]

My car is over 10 years old. How long should the manufacturer still support it?

Isn't there a federal law that requires parts be kept for at least 10 years?

You do have a point about how you can still get support from 3rd parties though.

Re:so go use linux?

[hambone142]

Same here. I've turned updates off for several years. Who wants a forced update to Windows 10?

Additionally, the updates just bog down my system. Some say it's for "security" but I haven't had an issue on any of my systems (I have 8 various PCs running at my house for various purposes).

I'll be on Win7 until it becomes unusable. Then it's over to Linux unless Microsoft starts behaving with civility.

Re:so go use linux?

[Anonymous Coward]

Until they release an update to it that doesn't suck. Not that I'd use 7 if I wasn't paid to.

Re:so go use linux?

[Deathlizard]

That's not the point here. I'm all for being on the latest OS and all, but explicitly blocking updates for no other reason other than the processor is new (Especially on Windows 8.1 that is still under mainstream support until 2018 and is still actively sold by MS) is just stupid. All that point you are treated worse that a windows pirate is. At least a Pirate can get critical updates...

The only way I would even think of supporting MS in this decision is if Windows 10 was free to windows 7 and 8.1 users indefinitely, but since that is not happening they better have a better reason than "Processor Too New".

Re: so go use linux?

[Anonymous Coward]

I assure you the patched old Win7 code has fewer bugs than Win10..

Re:so go use linux?

[Anonymous Coward]

How about until the agreed upon 1/14/2020 or whatever date in our fucking contracts?

You mean in 2010 they didn't disclose that their product support lifecycle would stop supporting new hardware in six years?

Lemme see if I can get the relevant quote right from the EULA .... ah, here: "I am altering the terms of the deal. Pray I don't alter it any further."

Re:so go use linux?

[omnichad]

Blocking Ryzen qualifies as a new feature update.

As it was, the OS had no knowledge of that architecture. Adding code to explicitly reject it, despite sharing a common instruction set is a "new feature." XP would probably run on it (with legacy boot enabled).

Re:so go use linux?

[Anonymous Coward]

At least 30 or 40 years.

End users want stability, not glitz.

Re:so go use linux?

[dryeo]

Legally they can't stop after market support, including if I want to machine parts for my 25 year old truck (which is well supported by after market vendors) and I can do anything to it as long as it still street legal, whereas MS will use various laws (copyright, patents) to stop any after market support. Even worse is that these days you're not allowed to do stuff to the hardware/software that you bought after hearing the ads about "owning it". At least if they were honest about it being a lease or rental, people could make a more informed decision.

Re:so go use linux?

[gweihir]

They said 2020. I expect them to keep to that.

Re:so go use linux?

[Anonymous Coward]

Until 2020 like they promised! Thats how long they should support it!! Not that it matters to me as this latest dick move of theirs does not effect me in the slightest. I have been done with Windows for over a year now, and happily running Linux Mint. The Windows 10 virus will never get near MY computers. You hear that M$...MY COMPUTERS, NOT YOURS!!!!!!!

Re:so go use linux?

[Anonymous Coward]

Nice strawman. So you think you can walk into a dealership with your 10 year old car and they will fix it for free? Are you really that stupid? Microsoft will continue to support you if you want to pay for it. Just like your idiotic car analogy.

Re:so go use linux?

[Darinbob]

Microsoft does not "support" it's operating systems. Just try calling them up and getting a bug fixed and they'll laugh at you. Their "support" means they'll occasionally shove out some bug fixes hidden in a mass of useless updates. My Windows 8.1 hasn't seen a big fix in months. It's "supported" until 2024 but I have no misconceptions about Microsoft actually supporting it with up to date bug fixes and modern features; it will most certainly see only the occasional security bug fix every month or two until then.

Re:so go use linux?

[Anonymous Coward]

Windows 7 is almost 10 years old at this point. how long should MS support it for?

I just don't understand this sentiment, unless you're an MS employee, or own a bunch of stock, or enjoy making your income supporting the constant chaos of the MS world.

I would _much_ rather MS have 1 OS version and keep developing and refining it. There's nothing significantly different about any Windows version in 20 years. Every time they announce something new and very different I keep expecting (hoping?) for a different filesystem, radically different layout, modular kernel, something seriously different. But no, most "snap-ins", control panel applets, etc., are the same thing, maybe laid out differently, changed some widgets, moved things, made some things difficult to find, but so what.

If Windows 7 has bugs, MS should "support" it until they fix all of the bugs.

Re:so go use linux?

[Anonymous Coward]

Some say it's for "security" but I haven't had an issue on any of my systems (I have 8 various PCs running at my house for various purposes).

I'll be on Win7 until it becomes unusable.

How do you know that ?

Your computers may very well be part of several botnets and you wouldn't know it. The fact it doesn't give you issues doesn't mean it isn't a problem and by plugin devices to the internet you have a duty to secure your systems and avoid being a problem for the well being of the whole network. Don't really understand why you would run a non updated system and wait for the OS to become unsuable to switch to Linux. If that is where you are headed why don't you switch to Linux already ? Doesn't make any sense.

Re: so go use linux?

[Anonymous Coward]

This isn't about doing anything for free. It's like buying a new engine for your car only to find out your car's computer has a special part that won't let you use it because it has a tiny bit more horsepower. Also that part has no other purpose but a law says you can't touch it because it's special.

Re:so go use linux?

[Anonymous Coward]

I am convinced Microsoft deliberately and intentionally puts security flaws in their software, specifically to force you to update, as an anti-piracy measure. I am pleased as punch not to have to run their defective by design, shitty crippleware. Thanks to Linus T., and all the people who helped him, and all the myriad people on the GNU team, and all the end-users whose use of GNU/Linux has driven demand for Linux-compatible software, and helped break Microshit's stranglehold and monopoly in the industry.

Fuck Microfuck. They're dogshit. I will tapdance on that company's fucking grave.

Re:so go use linux?

[Anonymous Coward]

How about until the end of time? Or until they manage to get a good replacement for it?
Whatever comes first.

Re:so go use linux?

[gravewax]

no that is the support contract for security fixes, windows 7 support for new features, changes etc finished in 2013.

Re:so go use linux?

[Anonymous Coward]

Until they have made all telemetry on Windows 10 optional and have published a definitive list of all server to which their operating system may connect together with instructions on how to block them.

Re:so go use linux?

[Carewolf]

no that is the support contract for security fixes, windows 7 support for new features, changes etc finished in 2013.

So why did they add a new feature to reject compatible CPUs?

Re:so go use linux?

[thegarbz]

How old is Windows 8.1?

Bonus question: when does the official support period end?

At least a part of this article is entirely indefensible.

Re:so go use linux?

[Anonymous Coward]

"worse that".

So you don't even know what the words "that" and "than" mean?

Are you American, by any chance?

Re:so go use linux?

[Anonymous Coward]

they didn't, you can still use new CPU's, what you can't do is download patches directly from windows update once you are using a non supported CPU.

Re:so go use linux?

[Anonymous Coward]

How about until the agreed upon 1/14/2020 or whatever date in our fucking contracts?

They're blocking newer CPUs from accessing Windows Update and preventing them from downloading critical security patches. These patches do not require additional testing or development to work on PCs with the newer CPUs, and the newer CPUs do not magically make the gaping security holes go away.

If you have a contract, then Microsoft is in breach. contact your lawyer for possible lawsuits for breach of contract.

Re:so go use linux?

[Anonymous Coward]

until they get us an adequate replacement.

Re:so go use linux?

[Anonymous Coward]

until January 14, 2020

https://support.microsoft.com/en-us/help/13853/windows-lifecycle-fact-sheet

Re:so go use linux?

[Anonymous Coward]

Windows 7 is almost 10 years old at this point. how long should MS support it for?

Err, until its official *end of support* date in 2020?

Re:so go use linux?

[Anonymous Coward]

And the "aftermarket" for Windows updates still works. WSUSOffline works fine. Use it and stop complaining.

Re:so go use linux?

[Tharkkun]

no that is the support contract for security fixes, windows 7 support for new features, changes etc finished in 2013.

So why did they add a new feature to reject compatible CPUs?

They haven't rejected the CPU's. They are rejecting security patches for those specific processors. Your OS will run fine.

Re:so go use linux?

[Tharkkun]

Windows 7 is almost 10 years old at this point. how long should MS support it for?

My car is over 10 years old. How long should the manufacturer still support it? At ten years of age do they say, "Oh sorry, we won't service it any more."? "Cracked windshield, blown muffler? Yeah, that's too bad. We don't carry what you need and oh by the way, you can't go to a third party and get it from them either."

That analogy is incorrect. What you should be saying is why can't I take my 2017 Honda Accord and install the same software that my 2004 Accord is using to operate my vehichle. It should work right? The timings couldn't possibly be different with the newer engines. :)

Re:so go use linux?

[Tharkkun]

Microsoft does not "support" it's operating systems. Just try calling them up and getting a bug fixed and they'll laugh at you. Their "support" means they'll occasionally shove out some bug fixes hidden in a mass of useless updates. My Windows 8.1 hasn't seen a big fix in months. It's "supported" until 2024 but I have no misconceptions about Microsoft actually supporting it with up to date bug fixes and modern features; it will most certainly see only the occasional security bug fix every month or two until then.

Support equals security fixes. That doesn't mean you're going to receive a Service Pack or Feature pack. You'll receive critical security updates until 2024.

Re:so go use linux?

[Waccoon]

Just because Microsoft pulls support doesn't mean the OS suddenly stops working.

Speak for yourself. Twice I had to call MS to re-activate my license for XP because I swapped some parts on my box. I learned my lesson, and am deathly afraid to touch any part of my current Win7 PC just in case MS decides I "might be the victim of piracy".

I wish I could stitch to Linux now, but I've been trying to do that for 12+ years, and always hit way too many potholes. When Win7 completely dies (probably due to hardware failure), I'll have to make the switch since there's no way I'm using any newer version of Windows.

Re:so go use linux?

[Carewolf]

no that is the support contract for security fixes, windows 7 support for new features, changes etc finished in 2013.

So why did they add a new feature to reject compatible CPUs?

They haven't rejected the CPU's. They are rejecting security patches for those specific processors. Your OS will run fine.

No they took a perfectly working system. ADDED code to it, to make part of it not work. That part happens to be security updates. If the hadn't done EXTRA work, it would still work.

People are "shocked"..?

[Anonymous Coward]

More like naieve.

Work OS Still Win 7

[STRICQ]

My work still has us on Windows 7 with no sign of upgrade in sight. I wonder if we'll upgrade after the next buyout completes...

Re:Work OS Still Win 7

[viperidaenz]

No one said this is an issue with the corporate licensed Windows versions, or when using WSUS.

A Question of Proportion

[Chrontius]

Does anybody really think that everyone will "upgrade" to windows 10 because of this?

Re:A Question of Proportion

[Anonymous Coward]

yeah, my company has schedule an upgrade from windows7 to 10 (right after palestine is recognized by the US, korea reunites and the donald impeaches himself)...

Re:A Question of Proportion

[TsuruchiBrian]

Some people will die before they upgrade to windows 10, so not *everyone*.

Re:A Question of Proportion

[Anonymous Coward]

Does anybody really think that everyone will "upgrade" to windows 10 because of this?

Not everyone, a lot of people just do not care about the updates anyway. Malware developers will probably appreciate all the shiny new Ryzen and Kaby Lake hardware running an operating system with unpatched security issues that will contribute more processing power to botnets.

Re:A Question of Proportion

[billyswong]

Yeah, I imagine Microsoft will just find a tons of unpatched Windows 7 machines on the net because of such move. One of the major reasons people don't go Windows 10 is its intrusive windows update system. Those insisting on Windows 7 even in new hardware don't really care keeping the OS 100% security-updated anyway.

Re:A Question of Proportion

[Rick Schumann]

People who habitually wear this face: https://img.memesuper.com/31c7... probably will, because they don't know any better and/or don't have the technical expertise to do anything else. That's the 'target audience' of Miscreant-o-soft: people who can't defend themselves, and that are too technically ignorant to know what they're doing to themselves. Remember that probably 90% of all computer users at this point in time just want to browse the web, get and send email, watch videos, and maybe play some games.

Re:A Question of Proportion

[Anonymous Coward]

When Microsoft's updates have the same functionality as much malware, it is debatable as to whether Microsoft is the lesser risk. Considering the damage updates can do, it is far from clear cut.

Re:A Question of Proportion

[Anonymous Coward]

You can pry windows 7 out of my cold dead hands.

Re:I tried to move to Ubuntu, Lenovo wouldn't let

[voss]

You need to make sure the wifi cards chipset is compatible with ubuntu before you stick it in.

Does it work in a VM on these processors?

[Anonymous Coward]

Anyway, looks like the year of Linux on the desktop is upon us.

MS-DOS?

[Osgeld]

yes, yes you can run MSDOS quite happily on any x86 cpu, I actually do it quite often on a amd A2X2 as I like refurbing old computers and sometimes I want to install dos or windows 9x on a machine while its replacement fdd / cd rom is in the mail from ebay

but im not shocked that a older OS doesnt support or take advantage of all the potential of newer hardware, after all the time difference tween the last released offical version and my 2.5GHZ dual core is only 8 years, why doesnt MSDOS use my dual core cpu? why doesnt it work with my sata drives when in "sata" mode, why can't I get my realtek sound card to work?

so why should I be shocked that bleeding edge systems wont be fully supported by a 7 year old OS in the case of 7, or a 3 year old OS that has a smaller fanbase than clippy?

Re:MS-DOS?

[omnichad]

fully supported != updates blocked. Ignoring the CPU and just assuming it will work would be better than this. They don't actually need to add support for anything that isn't already in there.

Re:MS-DOS?

[dryeo]

yes, yes you can run MSDOS quite happily on any x86 cpu

Actually it depends on a BIOS and if running it on a HD, I believe it requires CHS addressing. Two things that are going away. Once they remove legacy BIOS support from the latest boxes (probably soon), no more running DOS on new bare hardware.

Re:MS-DOS?

[Osgeld]

nah I have ran dos on my EFI i7 board before though a usb to IDE adapter, fires right up

Re:MS-DOS?

[Osgeld]

that's what it pretty much does, I dont expect my garage computer to get updates to MSDOS anymore than I expect windows 7 to get updates to exploit the best of my R7 which is in the mail

windows 7 would probably still run just fine on it, maybe it wont, just like MSDOS would probably run just fine on my 3770K .... to a point

Re:MS-DOS?

[omnichad]

that's what it pretty much does

What's pretty much what what does?

They actually added code to block the architecture from updates. They aren't merely ignoring the new CPUs.

Re:MS-DOS?

[dryeo]

Interesting, how does DOS make BIOS calls?

Re:MS-DOS?

[Anonymous Coward]

yes, yes you can run MSDOS quite happily on any x86 cpu, I actually do it quite often on a amd A2X2 as I like refurbing old computers and sometimes I want to install dos or windows 9x on a machine while its replacement fdd / cd rom is in the mail from ebay

but im not shocked that a older OS doesnt support or take advantage of all the potential of newer hardware, after all the time difference tween the last released offical version and my 2.5GHZ dual core is only 8 years, why doesnt MSDOS use my dual core cpu? why doesnt it work with my sata drives when in "sata" mode, why can't I get my realtek sound card to work?

so why should I be shocked that bleeding edge systems wont be fully supported by a 7 year old OS in the case of 7, or a 3 year old OS that has a smaller fanbase than clippy?

Here's my vain attempt to remedy that though much of the code still focuses on older x86...

https://github.com/joncampbell123/doslib

Also, look at FreeDOS.

Re:MS-DOS?

[Blaskowicz]

Can't be any other way than the UEFI legacy mode / Compatibility Support Module (CSM) / BIOS emulation? Let's call it the CSM, since they made up that acronym just so we have a name for it.

As for full USB read/write under DOS, this is courtesy of needing of BIOS (emulated or not) needing to read USB drives in the first place ; otherwise you wouldn't be able to boot from USB, or other features. DOS will read/write the USB drive you booted from.

As for CHS, this would give you the old drive limit of slightly less than 8 GiB. LBA took care of this and it might be the BIOS's job, not DOS (I don't know). A version of DOS that supports fat32 will help of course (prior to 98SE, a buggy fdisk was bundled, partition size above 64GB rolls over). You will certainly be able to use any drive up to 128 GiB / 137 GB, quite possibly up to 2 TiB. (don't make a fat32 partition that big if you worry about cluster allocation size)

Sound card support is the only thing really missing to have some fun IMO. I did see that mpxplay (a music player) includes drivers for certain cards and sound chipsets (some Intel, VIA, other in there but no Realtek) ; I never tried it but with supported hardware it might actually be useful.

Re:MS-DOS?

[Osgeld]

but its not blocked from running it, just updating it

Re:MS-DOS?

[Osgeld]

it is legacy mode compatibility, I should note my i7 board is for a 3rd gen cpu and was one of the first UEFI motherboards I had seen, so of course mileage may vary

Re:MS-DOS?

[omnichad]

What's your point? Windows 7 is eligible for security updates. Security updates don't have different hardware requirements than the original release. This is an artificial restriction which has nothing to do with supporting new hardware.

And if you bought Windows 7 for this PC specifically, you'd be eligible for a refund from Microsoft if they refuse to offer the security updates under the terms of the license agreement, assuming that the need for a security update constitutes the need for a repair under warranty (it should):

REMEDY FOR BREACH OF WARRANTY. Microsoft will repair or replace the software at no
charge. If Microsoft cannot repair or replace it, Microsoft will refund the amount shown
on your receipt for the software. It will also repair or replace supplements, updates and
replacement software at no charge. If Microsoft cannot repair or replace them, it will
refund the amount you paid for them, if any. You must uninstall the software and return
any media and other associated materials to Microsoft with proof of purchase to obtain a
refund. These are your only remedies for breach of the limited warranty.

Re:MS-DOS?

[dryeo]

Yes, originally I said,

Once they remove legacy BIOS support from the latest boxes (probably soon), no more running DOS on new bare hardware.

I expect that BIOS legacy mode will go away at some point, possibly due to pressure from MS, though I hope to be wrong.
I noticed that the latest Intel CPU's no longer support VGA mode and probably VESA in the video BIOS or perhaps the whole video BIOS as legacy support is being reduced and in the brave new world of only running Win 10 that MS envisions, legacy modes are just excess baggage.

Re:MS-DOS?

[Anonymous Coward]

It's going away, and not only because of pressure from MS. The chipmakers certainly all want it gone, because that is less they have to bother supporting or manufacturing into their boards and chips. At this point in time, it costs them money with zero benefit to them. Then of course you have the various copyright orgs that also want such a thing gone, because it is an analog hole.

I have an Intel-based system I still use daily that was manufactured in 2010, and it still uses a plain BIOS. There is no support at all for legacy devices or software in said BIOS, even in a board now 7 years "obsolete". It doesn't support IDE or IDE add-in cards, etc. It outright refuses to boot past the BIOS start screen if one is present, in fact. Everything is SATA and PCIE. WinXP won't even run on it, funnily enough, although Vista through Win10 run on it just fine, as do many Linux and BSD distros (except for some reason, anything running Gnome as a default never runs properly until I get rid of Gnome, while XFCE, KDE and the rest work fine, as do Emacs, vi and bash).

Your best bet is to hope that one of the open hardware makers decides to include such a thing as legacy hardware and software support in their designs even as the major players get rid of it.

Re:I tried to move to Ubuntu, Lenovo wouldn't let

[alzoron]

OS support isn't the issue here. Some laptop manufacturers actually put checks in the BIOS to only boot if a preapproved wifi adapter is installed. Try to use an unapproved wifi adapter and the system refuses to run at all.

So I can avoid uncontrolled reboots?

[Tinsoldier314]

Wait, so I if switch to Win 7 I won't have to deal with windows unilaterally deciding to reboot on me to install updates? Sign me up!

Giveawayoftheday works on linuxmint today

[Anonymous Coward]

Microsoft is MICRO Irrelevant.

Re:I tried to move to Ubuntu, Lenovo wouldn't let

[Anonymous Coward]

The other AC means a built-in card. The BIOS in some laptops locks out any and all non-OEM cards. The laptop literally doesn't start if you switch out the original card for a different card.

OLD NEWS - Get used to disappointment

[Ramze]

Microsoft said as much way back in January of last year. That's like... 14 months ago. So, they decided on this only about 6 months after Windows 10 came out... or less even. It has nothing to do with the speed of the current roll-out as it was always the plan.

MS expected Vista to die and everyone on 7, 8, and 8.1 to move to Win10 -- some slower than others. They intended to give them legacy support for their current CPUs, but the idea that anyone would intentionally install Windows 7, 8, or 8.1 INSTEAD of Win10 at this point with new CPU architectures wasn't something they expected people to want to do. I don't see them changing their minds NOW about it either.

Frankly, I'm surprised the install disk didn't stop the install if it had internet updates made available and ask if you wanted to upgrade the license to Win10 or just stop the install completely. Windows 7 is almost 8 years old. Its mainstream support ended back in 2015. It's limping along with mostly just security updates 'til 2020 when it officially gets the axe like Vista is now. Why would MS add anything to Win 7, much less support for a brand new CPU when the whole idea is to let those who want to cling to Win 7 and refuse the free upgrade to Win 10 just limp along with minimal support until they can kill support altogether?

For Win 8 and 8.1, mainstream support continues 'til 2018... but seriously, Windows 8 and 8.1 sales have been discontinued... so, they're really only obligated to support architectures that existed up to the point where the sales ended as the licenses were not transferable. Site licenses for large corps might have some room to gripe, but I bet the language is in the contract and EULAs to cover this.

If you're holding out hope this is going to change, all I can advise is to get used to disappointment.

Re:OLD NEWS - Get used to disappointment

[Anonymous Coward]

but the idea that anyone would intentionally install Windows 7, 8, or 8.1 INSTEAD of Win10 at this point with new CPU architectures wasn't something they expected people to want to do

They absolutely expected and still expect it. Stopping people from doing just that is the only reason to block updates.

Re:Good thing!

[currently_awake]

Backwards compatibility is what keeps windows as the default OS. If Microsoft takes that away you may as well run Linux.

"The only resolution"

[Chas]

No, that's NOT the only resolution.

Anyone who's the least bit tech-savvy can use WSUSOffline to draw down all the updates.

The only issue you have there is that Microsoft's update servers are randomly peppered with corrupted manifest files which prevent fresh WSUSOffline setups from downloading anything. So you have to do multiple attempts on multiple networks (sometimes) before getting a pristine manifest.

Once you have it, it's fine from there on out.

But yeah, this is major bullshit on Microsoft's part. And Nadella and his crew need to be drawn and quartered for this.

Re:"The only resolution"

[Anonymous Coward]

People are figuring out that windows 10 is not a real operating system for any serious use, so it makes sense to stick to an earlier version while getting up to speed on Linux. I'm doing that and quite enjoying the whole process.

Microsoft's Actual Logic

[Jaborandy]

• Step 1: New CPU comes out
• Step 2: "Looks like we've got to make a new driver for this new CPU version."
• Step 3: "Done. The Windows 10 driver is great and we can release it. Yay!"
• Step 4: "Do we have to make Win 7 version of this driver now?"
• Step 5: "We told them we wouldn't support all the new stuff. Most of the people running old OSes are also running it on older hardware, so this won't affect that many people. Let's not do the extra work."
• Step 5: Internet freaks out.

In all seriousness, I believe these chipsets were sold in machines that originally came with Windows 10 (or not with Windows). This only affects people who bought new PCs, then manually installed an old OS because they liked it more. That's low volume stuff that is only overrepresented here on Slashdot. Most of the world doesn't even notice moves like this, because their PC came with Windows, whatever version, and it still works and updates.

--Jaborandy

Re:Microsoft's Actual Logic

[Anonymous Coward]

Bristol Ridge was just released. I smell some Intel here.

Re:Microsoft's Actual Logic

[Anonymous Coward]

And the Microsoft engineers are dancing in the streets when they find out they don't have to do #4, because who wants to write a driver for a 10 year old operating system when you can be working on the latest stuff.

Re:Microsoft's Actual Logic

[Anonymous Coward]

"only affects people who bought new PCs, then manually installed an old OS [...] low volume stuff that is only overrepresented here on Slashdot"

Yeah, it's only geeks, gamers, anyone doing product testing in a VM, half of corporate networks and anyone competent in a regulated industry that's not allowed to leak confidential client data to random third parties.

Re:Microsoft's Actual Logic

[GoChickenFat]

um, no. enterprises are still buying new hardware and installing corporate approved images with win7 while they continue to work on win10 deployment plans. enterprises rely on the extended support dates published by MS to drive priorities and planning for massive roll outs like win10. Win10 is not a trivial update due to the new management needs for store, updates, telemetry and privacy settings, third party app updates, user training, etc...

Re: Microsoft's Actual Logic

[Anonymous Coward]

Step 6. Review step numbers.

Re:Microsoft's Actual Logic

[jonwil]

Microsoft made the announcement that Windows 7 would not be supported on these newer chips before these chips were even available to buy. Anyone who still needed Windows 7 should have seen this and bought something with an older chip in it (or if you are a big company lots of things with older chips in them)

Re:Microsoft's Actual Logic

[Anonymous Coward]

Well these companies will buy hardware without these new gen cpu and that's about it. A company that is not already working on an approved image of windows 10 or any other OS that would be supported comes 2020 is shooting herself in the foot anyway.

Re:Microsoft's Actual Logic

[Anonymous Coward]

Microsoft made the announcement that Windows 7 would not be supported on these newer chips before these chips were even available to buy. Anyone who still needed Windows 7 should have seen this and bought something with an older chip in it (or if you are a big company lots of things with older chips in them)

Not supporting the new features of the chips (which are otherwise backwards compatible with the previous generations and support for onboard devices is already implemented by third party drivers) is not the same as locking their users out of all updates. If there is for example a buffer overflow bug in some Microsoft DLL, and the bug is the same regardless of whether you have a Sandy Bridge or Kaby Lake CPU, why should those who have the latter be denied access to the patch?

Re:Microsoft's Actual Logic

[thegarbz]

Step 5: yes because our support contracts agree we will do so until 2020.

What they said they will do is at odds with their contractual support agreements. Someone should lose their job over this decision.

Re:Microsoft's Actual Logic

[skegg]

Fair enough.

But let's also note that in January 2016 Microsoft announced the end of support of Win 7 / 8 on Skylake ... a processor that was available months earlier in 2015

Sure, they reversed that stance. But what the heck ?!?!

It's disturbing how that company oscillates between being friendly one minute (e.g. open sourcing stuff, etc) and being horribly monopolistic the next (crap moves like these, spying on users, etc).

Re:Microsoft's Actual Logic

[guruevi]

Wrong: You don't need a driver for a newer CPU unless you're planning on supporting it's new features. The MS-DOS kernel will boot on the Kaby Lake or Ryzen architecture and that hasn't been updated in decades.

This is Microsoft's logic:

- Not enough people are using our ad-ware platform
- Let's push ads so people see our new ad-ware
- That didn't work
- Let's push an update that doesn't have a button to not update to our new ad-ware
- That didn't work
- Let's push an update that self-upgrades to our new ad-ware.
- That didn't work
- Let's push an update that breaks the OS unless they accept our new ad-ware whenever they upgrade the hardware

Unpatched Win7 and WinXP SP3 will run on these new CPU's - it's just later non-hardware related updates that break.

Re:Microsoft's Actual Logic

[ndnet]

I absolutely agree with this. Yes, it's updates in this case, not drivers. But the number of edge cases to test and the cost to do so is substantial, and the number of affected users is relatively small. Meanwhile, this means they can make it so they don't need to backport patches that have odd forks, etc. for new processors.

Re:Microsoft's Actual Logic

[Anonymous Coward]

Drivers, okay. but SECURITY UPDATES? Fuck you, Microsoft.

Re:Microsoft's Actual Logic

[Anonymous Coward]

Do you think the average Joe/Jane cares if they are getting updates or not? At this point most only notice the unplanned reboots.

Re:Microsoft's Actual Logic

[Anonymous Coward]

I shouldn't matter. The hardware requirements listed on Windows 7 was a 1GHz x86 or x64 processor. Ryzen and Kaby Lake meet those requirements so I should be able to install and use any purchased copies without Microsoft deciding to break an important feature like security updates to encourage me to purchase their new advertising platform.

Re:Microsoft's Actual Logic

[jonwil]

Microsoft has a huge QA lab full of machines of all sorts where they run QA tests of every new Windows update that gets released. This would cover different CPUs, GPUs, motherboards, storage devices, peripherals and other hardware.

The fact is, you installed Windows 7 on a system where Microsoft clearly said "we wont support Windows 7 on this hardware".
Microsoft has clearly made the decision not to include Kaby Lake and Zen systems in the set of hardware they test Windows 7 patches on. Therefore, those patches are have not been tested by Microsoft on that hardware and Microsoft is within their rights to say "we haven't tested x update on y hardware configuration and in conjunction with their earlier "we wont support this" statement are within their rights to make Windows 7 patches not install on hardware configurations they haven't tested and don't support.

Again, I make the statement that if you bought a Kaby Lake or Zen CPU expecting to be able to run Windows 7 or 8 on it, you are stupid and should have bought hardware where Microsoft hasn't said "we wont support this OS on that hardware"

Re:Microsoft's Actual Logic

[Anonymous Coward]

Corporations fall into the small margin of KLake/Ryzen. The vast majority of corporate users do not need these processors, and will not be paying extra for them. Ryzen in particular JUST came out; there's no way it'll be approved on a production for any corporation with a competent IT dept.

Corporations still have old hardware and will not be affected by this move. Corporations that need KL and Ryzen support will simply use Win10 Enterprise, which can have most, if not all, telemetry turned off.

Re:Microsoft's Actual Logic

[Anonymous Coward]

And Windows 10 is still a pile of shit with lipstick on it.

https://www.howtogeek.com/2989...

Yes enterprise customers shouldn't be affected by such stuff however this sort of stuff indicates that Win 10 isn't enterprise ready yet.

Resolution is incorrect

[Anonymous Coward]

Totally incorrect resolution. Win10 is not the upgrade. Linux is. Too bad for MS.

Re:Resolution is incorrect

[supremebob]

Older versions of Linux have been having problems with Ryzen procesors as well, but at least Canonical isn't deliberately bricking customers using that software.

Re:Resolution is incorrect

[Anonymous Coward]

Replacing your cutting-edge CPU with an older one is also an option.

Re:Resolution is incorrect

[Anonymous Coward]

Replacing your cutting-edge CPU with an older one is also an option.

Uh yeah, about that... I'm sure you cannot put an AM3 chip in an AM4 socket. Let's see (source, wikipedia):
AM4
1331 pins
supports DDR4 with an on CPU die memory controller

AM3+
942 pins
supports DDR3 with an on CPU die memory controller

So even if they did mechanically fit, they wouldn't be able to drive the memory chips.

Re:Good thing!

[sgage]

Wow, what an MS sycophant you are! This is an artificial restriction to (try to) force people to Win10, nothing more. After 30 years as a MS customer (my first MS product was MSBASIC under CP/M) I am saying final good-byes. It's been a while coming, but they have lost me...

Re:Microsoft made this announcement a while back

[sexconker]

You're one of several shills posting that bullshit here.
Windows 7 extended support (security patches) is guaranteed until January of 2020. They're pulling the plug on that early for anyone with a Ryzen or Kaby Lake CPU. This isn't about those CPUs not being supported - Windows 7 runs on them just fine. This isn't about the patches needing more testing or development - the patches don't care what CPU you're running and MS hasn't tested a patch before deploying it in 3 fucking years.

FUCK SATYA NADELLA!

The issue is .265/HEVC decoding.

[Anonymous Coward]

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/High_Efficiency_Video_Coding

"HEVC is restricted by patents owned by various parties. Use of HEVC technologies requires the payment of royalties to licensors of HEVC patents, such as MPEG LA, HEVC Advance, and Technicolor SA."

All 3 of those working groups stated have strong ties to the MPAA, who doesn't like older Operating Systems used by pirates. The entire push for TPM modules on computers and Secureboot was primarily from the MPAA and RIAA effectively telling Microsoft "Either keep your users from pirating our stuff or we will revoke your Coded Licensing for Windows Media Player and ensure nobody can play DVD's on computers" in the late 00's. It wasn't until after those technologies were deployed that software companies began using them for security, e.g. using TPM modules to lock down disks or Secure Boot to lock down boot-code.

This is the same story replaying itself, but this time Intel is the victim. Pretty much all of the mid-sized and large web media companies are grouping together to build competing, free standards e.g. VP9. I expect HEVC to end up the same way many proprietary standards on video capture equipment ended up; obsolete in 3 years.

If you're looking to skip a processor generation, right now is the time.

Re: The issue is .265/HEVC decoding.

[Anonymous Coward]

Not to disagree with your other points, but VP9 is an underperforming piece of junk compared to the other standards it competes against. This makes it unlikely it will win the standards war.

Re:The issue is .265/HEVC decoding.

[Khyber]

Alliance for Open Media is going to crush HEVC without fail. All the real technology companies are getting in on it, leaving the MPEG and VCEG out of the loop. They're tired of being told how to make their products to any degree, and are fighting back.

Re:The issue is .265/HEVC decoding.

[thegarbz]

This affects security updates to the core OS how?

Re:The issue is .265/HEVC decoding.

[AmiMoJo]

That seems extremely far-fetched. Even now on OEM systems the TPM module and Secure Boot are not used to prevent you from installing an older/alternate OS or even for pirating stuff in Windows 10. You can still run VLC, you can still use HDMI capture cards and Bluray ripping software. TPM and Secure Boot have done exactly nothing to protect the MPAA's precious intellectual property.

The only area they have had some influence is over the protected path DRM that made its way into HDMI and the Windows media subsystem, which basically tried to prevent you from creating a software sound/video card and using it to rip Blurays. It's pointless and doesn't even work, as expected.

The reason Microsoft are doing this is because fuck you cow use Windows 10 and let us milk you like Apple/Google do! So unfair!

Re:The issue is .265/HEVC decoding.

[sexconker]

Nope. MPEG will sue and claim that all the open implementations are using their patents.
The patents are so vague, broad, and numerous that even if MPEG loses on every single count they'll win by attrition.

Re:The issue is .265/HEVC decoding.

[michael_wojcik]

That seems extremely far-fetched. Even now on OEM systems the TPM module and Secure Boot are not used to prevent you from installing an older/alternate OS or even for pirating stuff in Windows 10.

I work with one of the authors of the TPM 1.0 spec, and he certainly wasn't doing it to support DRM. I'd like to see the OP supply some evidence (but I'm not holding my breath).

Re:The issue is .265/HEVC decoding.

[AmiMoJo]

It's Slashdot, +5 insightful is all the evidence you need or are likely to get.

Re:The issue is .265/HEVC decoding.

[Billly Gates]

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/High_Efficiency_Video_Coding

"HEVC is restricted by patents owned by various parties. Use of HEVC technologies requires the payment of royalties to licensors of HEVC patents, such as MPEG LA, HEVC Advance, and Technicolor SA."

All 3 of those working groups stated have strong ties to the MPAA, who doesn't like older Operating Systems used by pirates. The entire push for TPM modules on computers and Secureboot was primarily from the MPAA and RIAA effectively telling Microsoft "Either keep your users from pirating our stuff or we will revoke your Coded Licensing for Windows Media Player and ensure nobody can play DVD's on computers" in the late 00's. It wasn't until after those technologies were deployed that software companies began using them for security, e.g. using TPM modules to lock down disks or Secure Boot to lock down boot-code.

This is the same story replaying itself, but this time Intel is the victim. Pretty much all of the mid-sized and large web media companies are grouping together to build competing, free standards e.g. VP9. I expect HEVC to end up the same way many proprietary standards on video capture equipment ended up; obsolete in 3 years.

If you're looking to skip a processor generation, right now is the time.

Not so. HEVC and VP9 hardware acceleration is included with Nvida 10xxx and AMD rx 4xx and up so that blows that theory out.

Re:The issue is .265/HEVC decoding.

[Anonymous Coward]

Support your assertions please. I've never heard anything like the story you just told and I've been around and paying attention. Your assertions sound, to my ears, more like a pre-packaged rant against the **AA organizations. Who deserve plenty but that's another matter.

The TPM is in fact designed to provide a truly secure computer system, from the hardware layer through the OS, with signed drivers and known applications. The current stories of UEFI attacks? Those would be addressed by an integrated security system (in principle, with implementation gnarly as always).

The FOSS world went nuts over Secure Boot before they figured out it was in fact not a deal-breaker nor aimed at defeating FOSS software.

Re: Good thing!

[Anonymous Coward]

Just took a friend to a hospital, XP still running their show user side, so stupid move of M$ to think they can force organizations off the proverbial bottle in that way but not surprising

Windows 8.1

[Anonymous Coward]

How many reasons does Microsoft want to make to STOP me from upgrading to Win10?

I have been waiting/thinking for over 18 months - I normally move to the new OS rather quickly in the past 25 years.

Nope. 8.1 does everything fine and I have no need.

so they are not pushing to lock out linux?

[Joe_Dragon]

so they are not pushing to lock out linux? with lines of MPAA, who doesn't like non windows os used by pirates.

Re:Good thing!

[Anonymous Coward]

No, software availability is what keeps windows the default OS. Backwards compatibility is part of that. Sorry, Sparky, but there's more than a few popular use cases where "may as well run Linux" doesn't fly.

Window 8.1 is only 2 years old

[edxwelch]

they block updates for Window 8.1 and it's only 2 years old

Re:Window 8.1 is only 2 years old

[sydbarrett74]

Windows 8.1 was released on October 17, 2013. It's almost 3.5 years old.

I don't run updates so I don't give a shit

[Anonymous Coward]

Yeah, lecture me on how updates make me vulnerable to a pile of dumb shit. Never had a problem, probably never will. If a major security hole hits the news like the print spooler vulnerability I'll download the manual update MSU and run it, but running updates on Windows these days is begging to get "infected" with telemetry garbage and maybe even advertising since the "no ads in the core OS" barrier has now been crossed. I'll take a stable and predictable system over a well-updated mess, thank you very much.

Then again, I don't run updates on Windows 10 either, so I guess it doesn't matter either way. Yes, even Windows 10 Core can have updates disabled, and that's exactly what I've done. No reboots in the middle of rendering my slow-motion cumshot videos anymore.

Re:I don't run updates so I don't give a shit

[Anonymous Coward]

Not all of us think you're stupid. Updates reflect the best interest of the company more than the user, and are, in a way, a vendor-sanctioned back door.

I'm tired of hearing "security experts" lecturing on how you should update everything, but never, EVER examining the negative impact of updates, including instability, unwanted "features," and crippling the system because of driver problems, bad settings, or whatever. Plus, the fact that you're handing control of your computer over to someone else. Windows 10 is more an attempt at making sure Microsoft owns all the computers than anything else.

Truth be told, even the supposed security benefits don't hide the fact that current insecurity is a band-aid for a gaping, mortal wound; we need a new approach to security, probably involving things like sandboxing.

Re:Microsoft made this announcement a while back

[Anonymous Coward]

Right, extended support for EXISTING systems, not new hardware. New hardware, new chipset, and no obligation to support it. Full stop. You can call it a poor decision, but "extended support" and "contracts" have nothing to do with it. That's not shilling, that's simply acknowledging the facts of the matter, you butthurt fanboy.

Trumped

[Anonymous Coward]

We've been Trumped by Microsoft's executive order.

Reason why: Ryzen is faster on Windows 7

[edxwelch]

The reason for the update block could be this:
https://hardforum.com/threads/...

Windows 10 has a buggy scheduler which means games run faster on Windows 7. This update block is to prevent gamers from migrating to Windows 7.

Re:Reason why: Ryzen is faster on Windows 7

[Anonymous Coward]

Oh FFS, idiots are still believing this shit when AMD has already debunked it days ago.

http://www.tomshardware.com/news/amd-ryzen-7-1800x-update,33900.html

Re: I tried to move to Ubuntu, Lenovo wouldn't let

[Anonymous Coward]

That restriction is to ensure the NSA backdoor (vPro, IME) works with the network card.

It's because you have an arrogant Indian boss

[Anonymous Coward]

Indians are arrogant as fuck as bosses with the shittiest customer service in existence. This is the problem.

Re:so go use FreeBSD?

[Anonymous Coward]

Been using FreeBSD for over a decade.
Complete with Firefox, Chrome, OpenOffice, Thunderbird, neomutt, compilers, games, qtox, voip, etc, etc, etc !!!
All free and opensource, share it with your friends, give it away, binary updates whenever you want and how you want it, hack your own code, contribute your own fixes.
There is NOT A SINGLE thing more I could EVER wish for compared to MS.
AND, I don't have to deal with the distro of the month club, and the random rip out and rip out again BS that is Linux.
https://www.freebsd.org/

And ESPECIALLY not the virus and corporate bullshit and surveillance spying that is MS.
All you MicroSoft fanbois, and all you corporate license paying retards, can go suck it.

Now excuse me, I've got more turns to play :-)

http://wesnoth.org/
https://www.freebsd.org/ports/categories-grouped.html

Wide backlash of corporates?

[Anonymous Coward]

What is this corporation that even upgraded their hardware in the last 10 years?
Those guys stay with whatever works for as long as possible, so I highly doubt they'd buy new hardware, only to go on a soon to be unsupported OS.

Woo hoo!

[PPH]

Another wave of used hardware is going to hit the market for Linux users any time now.

Re:Microsoft made this announcement a while back

[sexconker]

They have a contractual obligation to support the OS, and they're artificially shirking that obligation.
Windows 7 runs on just about any x86 or x86-64 platform. The line about "unsupported hardware" is PURE BULLSHIT.

As a US citizen, I can only hope the EU takes them to task over this because I know this fucking country won't do a damned fucking thing because of shitholes like you who encourage this blatantly illegal behavior.

You wrote that? Here?

[dbIII]

I probably know a great deal more about computers than you do

You wrote that? Here?
I'm not sure if that was brave or stupid, but in tens of thousands of cases it's just going to be plain wrong. Assembly makes you special? I even did it as early as High School like thousands of others here.

Keeping track of every little nuance of your linux distro is a full time job

Then isn't it lucky for you that other people are doing that for you.

Re:You wrote that? Here?

[Dunbal]

Then isn't it lucky for you that other people are doing that for you.

Yes. People you trust. Except a chain is only as strong as its weakest link.

And yes, I wrote that here. Like I said. Punchcards. I cut my teeth on mainframes. I'm sure there are plenty of knowledgeable people here. That doesn't make me less knowledgeable "just because I use Windows".

Re:You wrote that? Here?

[Anonymous Coward]

Problem is, millions of other people have to trust the weakest link too. This
has a tendency to produce very strong "weak links". Or that link is eliminated
by pier review. I can't understand how genius computer archetypes don't
fucking grok this shit.

Re:You wrote that? Here?

[Anonymous Coward]

I found the cunt!

Re:You wrote that? Here?

[Anonymous Coward]

Assembly makes you special? I even did it as early as High School like thousands of others here.

Why don't you enlighten us and tell us about the applications you wrote in assembly in high school ?

Database ? Web Server ? Digital Signal Processor ?

Or was it more along the lines of take two values from memory and send them to an output port ?

Big difference between being lead by the nose and doing work.

Re:You wrote that? Here?

[Highdude702]

That doesn't make me less knowledgeable "just because I use Windows".

Knowing what you claim to know(I'm not doubting you) I dont know 10% of that even, But from my view still using windows with your knowledge either makes you gullible, or a tool. Mind you I say this off of my Windows 10 PC, But why time something important comes along.. Off to the linux OS I go.

Re:You wrote that? Here?

[dbIII]

Good on you! Keep on going and soon you won't be a whining virgin wasting our time.

Re:You wrote that? Here?

[MadKeithV]

Pier review? Off the deep end! You're in hot water now.

Re:You wrote that? Here?

[Jon Peterson]

But from my view still using windows with your knowledge either makes you gullible, or a tool

All my professional life I've been baffled by this attitude. I've used Linux, SunOS/Solaris, Irix, AIX, Windows from 2.0 to 10, OS/2, VMS, MS-DOS, MacOS, OSX, and a few of the built-in "operating systems" on the old 8-bit home computers.

They all have strengths and weaknesses. VMS was an extraordinary far-sighted OS, that failed commercially for good reasons. Some of it survives in Windows, via the OS/2 NT developments.

I use Windows 10 at work and at home. It does what I want from a computer, which these days isn't much. I find Windows annoying as a server platform, but then I never really learned by way round it as a server platform. I find Linux tedious as a desktop platform, and while I ran it as one back in the day, I'm no longer familiar with modern distros. They might be great. So what? I couldn't care less that MS is trying to shift everyone onto a single auto-updating OS. That is clearly the direction of travel of consumer computing. Phone apps auto update constantly, in fact people whine that Android often doesn't.

The large, complex, CRM system my company users has compulsory releases every 6 months, something that would have been quite laughable 15 years ago.

In 15 years we'll have auto-updating OSes on the server side - and not just MS doing it, either.

Re: You wrote that? Here?

[Zero__Kelvin]

Well you shouldn't have said it, because you then went on to prove that you have no experience with or knowledge of Linux. You are the classic clues noob pretending to have a clue.

Re:You wrote that? Here?

[Highdude702]

So in 15 years servers will be like Windows. Everybody exploits the day after patch day. I don't see what you're seeing happening in real life. Maybe in some very particular situations. But it won't be a common every day thing. Anything server related is normally stability tested for a while before updated on live systems.

Re:You wrote that? Here?

[Anonymous Coward]

In that case you are probably one of the dozen people left from times when slashdot was a nerd site. Unfortunately you don't represent the average person here anymore so it's a reasonable assumption that a random asshole writing cocky comments is unable write a fizzbuzz in pseudocode nevermind even knowing what's an assembler.

Re:Good thing!

[dbIII]

It's not a fiasco keeping MS WinXP on a few systems. The fiasco is compatibility issues that stop some legacy software running on something newer than MS WinXP. When it's something like label printing software or has evil hardware dongle copyright "protection" you are stuck running MS WinXP on real hardware instead of being able to run it in a VM.

If they were moving forward properly instead of scrapping features here and there you wouldn't see so many old MS operating systems still in use.

Unsupported or disallowed?

[See Attached]

THere is a difference between being " an unsupported configuration " and being disallowed. Is there a chance that MS doesn't want anyone to be on older versions of Windows? Sounds like they are tired of supporting them? Lets be serious.. Win7 is a solid desktop. Is there a compelling reason to move to newer version? The OS will soon be transparent, and largely irrelevant.. and the value will be whats around the planet. Right now.. is your browser maximized on your screen? If so... its already happened to you. Just saying.

Can VirtualBox spoof this?

[steveha]

I only run Windows two ways:

* For gaming on my dedicated gaming computer,

* In a VirtualBox under Linux (for those few apps that are Windows-only).

For gaming, maybe I should just switch to SteamOS.

For the rest, I wonder if VirtualBox can spoof the Windows processor detection (lie and claim to be an older chip). I think in principle it absolutely can, but maybe the project doesn't want to invite trouble.

Re:Good thing!

[Fieryphoenix]

It's not ending support for legacy systems here, it's blocking new systems from having the updates it is still producing for older systems.

That's OK

[blind biker]

I have already blocked Microsoft from updating my Windows 7 machines. It's been a long time since Microsoft updates had anything good for the user.

As long as customers want it

[Anonymous Coward]

....pretty much.

Re:Microsoft made this announcement a while back

[Anonymous Coward]

Ryzen and Kaby Lake are backwards compatible, so they can act like old hardware, or act like new hardware. Maybe the problem is a vocabulary one. For some people, "support" means "enabling all the features". If we had a word to mean "run but without enabling the new features", then Microsoft could let Windows 7/8.1 run on these new CPUs and use that word to describe what they're doing without risking being sued by someone who expected access to the new CPU features.

Re:I tried to move to Ubuntu, Lenovo wouldn't let

[See Attached]

Thinkpads used to be very picky as to what devices would work. to the point where an unauthorized card would halt boot process. For some reason I am on HP and dell systems now.. Maybe there is a connection :^) If there is a doubt, check device history before buying..... You all know this already. If you find a packaged device that says Linux on it, its a much safer bet. Put your money there if you find it of value.

What is a Qualcomm ARM SoC doing on this list?

[Anonymous Coward]

Does that mean I can install Windows 7 without the latest updates on an ARM device?
This whole "article" smells fishy.

Re:Microsoft made this announcement a while back

[omnichad]

Ryzen is a new feature

Ryzen has new features. It doesn't require ANY for it to work on Windows 7. Windows added a new feature to detect and block the architecture from updates - that's the only "new feature" that's relevant here.

Re: I tried to move to Ubuntu, Lenovo wouldn't let

[dryeo]

That restriction goes back to before vPro, IME. I have a T42 (Pentium M) which is like that, a short white list in the BIOS of wireless cards/chips and anything else means no boot.
At least with such an old laptop there are alternative patched BIOSes available to get around the issue. New ones are probably signed everywhere just to make sure you can't use the hardware you bought as you'd like.

Re:Good thing!

[TsuruchiBrian]

Windows is still backwards compatible.... The latest version supports older hardware. It's is the hardware that is not backwards compatible to older versions of windows (although that is because of microsoft). Whether you use linux or windows 10 is up to you.

Most people will not even consider running an OS other than windows.

Most of those people will never consider running a version of windows older than 10 on those newer chips.

Of the people that would prefer to run older versions of windows, most will decide to switch to windows 10 rather than linux.

I actually do think microsoft is dying a slow death. The list of reasons to keep using windows continues to grow smaller, but one big thing on that list that is probably not going away quickly is "It's the only thing I'm familiar with".

My job is to develop software that runs on linux. I have my mom running linux. I want windows to die. But it's going to be a while.

Re:Microsoft made this announcement a while back

[gweihir]

Funny that nobody besides you seems to have noticed that yet...

Virtual CPU Now

[Anonymous Coward]

Someone please code a virtual CPU that can tell Microsoft to f**k off.

Re:I tried to move to Ubuntu, Lenovo wouldn't let

[Anonymous Coward]

A lot of times that's because of federal regulations. You're not allowed to output more than a certain amount and if they don't have drivers limiting that for a radio chipset then it's technically illegal to use it with the laptop's antennas. It's something like that, I'm not an expect on it.

Re:Good thing!

[dryeo]

It's not the 90s anymore, there are actual reasons why we need to continue to move forward

Such as?

Re: Microsoft made this announcement a while back

[Anonymous Coward]

Thankfully, you have inside knowledge and understand the cost and effort to ensure things don't break and drag down Support services.

Oh wait, you don't.

Doesn't Matter

[twistedcubic]

Nobody will ever run Windows 7 on Ryzen since compatible motherboards will never be available.

Re:Doesn't Matter

[Anonymous Coward]

False. Hardware vendors don't care about Microsoft's business strategy. If they have customers who want to run Windows 7 on Ryzen then the vendor will write Windows 7 drivers for Ryzen (nobody uses Microsoft-supplied drivers if they have the choice anyway). That's the the reason MS are blocking updates in the first place.

Re:Doesn't Matter

[Blaskowicz]

Right, consumer motherboards sold on their own do offer such kind of support (and BIOS updates for future CPUs and critical fixes), are free from OEM crap like always-on Secure Boot, hardware whitelists or incompatibilities, or other nonsense. There might still be the header for PC speaker, I have not checked this yet. Some new mobos have dual PS/2. One of the vendors put single PS/2 + dual USB 2.0 on all their AM4 motherboards, where you usually plug keyb/mouse.
Some not quite old supported Windows XP, I think AM1 socket motherboards did - almost current, the processor is about a cheap low performance version of the PS4 and Xbox One's processor. Prolly useful for legacy non-networked stuff.
You can also run Windows 7/8/10 32bit on all of the motherboards if you so need/want.

I don't know how this will end. MS would like to close down the hardware, but they don't control it. The IBM PS/2 died out long ago, replaced by the beige boxes it tried to replace.
Longer term perhaps we'll use some virtualization/hypervisor thing? Would be nice if the GPU vendors allow to use the "virtual GPU" feature, even if limited to only one guest (multiple guests can use an actual GPU nowadays, on "professional" or "enterprise" versions of the hardware)

Re:so go use FreeBSD?

[Anonymous Coward]

Yes! This! Totally stoked to see someone else using cool stuff. I've only been using FreeBSD for 3 years. It took me about 6 months to really get the idea of it. And last November I nuked my windows box for good and turned it into a FreeBSD media server and backup box using ZFS. So hell yea, FreeBSD is free and it works.

Updates - the cure worse than the disease!

[Anonymous Coward]

Or how about just don't update, use anti-virus and avoid telemetry!

People seem to think that the moment that updates don't install, the software bursts into flames and shall never again be usable. While this may be true of some of Microsoft's newer software - namely Office 365, which charges you a yearly fee to use software that uses YOUR computer for most of its resources, and perhaps Windows 10 eventually since it is supposed to be a service - this is not the case for Windows 7, 8, or 8.1.

Updates are not necessarily in the best interest of you or your computer in any case and have done far more harm to me than malware ever has. Every time I've updated Windows, I've regretted it, including on a brand new, hour-out-of-the-box Dell machine that had its expensive GPU knocked offline. Plus Windows 7 had the Windows 10 telemetry and no-option update mechanism forcefully injected into it to try to scare people into using Win10 even though Windows 7 was fully usable. And security patches are like using bandaids on a patient gushing blood from their jugular, whereas anti-virus, anti-malware and sandboxing/virtualization are far more likely to prevent damage.

Frankly I consider this a feature to help safeguard against accidental update damage, and I'd like to know some chipsets impacted by this that run Win7 because I'm looking for a new computer and it's not going to have Win10 on it.

Bottom line, Microsoft wants to own your computer and data with Windows 10, and they're willing to trick and terrify you into switching to it. Think about that for a bit.

Re:I tried to move to Ubuntu, Lenovo wouldn't let

[Anonymous Coward]

Get a USB wi-fi adapter. They start around $5. I'd suggest one but I don't have direct experience, but many work with Linux, and some people buy them explicitly for this fact. It's not optimal, but unless you're utterly desperate for USB ports and can't possibly use a hub, it's better than Windows 10, especially if you don't want Microsoft to own your stuff anymore.

thats why when I pick an OS I pick

[Anonymous Coward]

When I pick an OS I pick
XP..

It just works with out the Bullshit gimmiks.

Why the fuck does it matter if the OS is somewhat old..
Well isnt there something in the eula that says there are certain applications of the OS that MS cant be responsible for..
Well great use @ ur own risk, But that should not cut out the update process.. MS looking for new revenue streams? Fuckers!!!

Re:I tried to move to Ubuntu, Lenovo wouldn't let

[Trogre]

Who? Please provide a list so we can know what brands to avoid.

Re:I tried to move to Ubuntu, Lenovo wouldn't let

[Anonymous Coward]

Called Black Listing, get a clue,, i thought this was a place for Nerds..
WTF??

Re:Microsoft made this announcement a while back

[Billly Gates]

No others have noticed.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?...

CPUs are whole silicon on a chip platform. This isn't 1990 anymore where they just do math and nothing special from the operating system is needed anymore. Thanks to Tablets and mobile the new thing is to put everything on the CPU.

Re:Microsoft made this announcement a while back

[Billly Gates]

It does require work. If you don't want BSODs, ethernet, video, wifi, usb 3, nVME, etc you need a large amount of work.

THis is slashdot and people here feel this is 1990 where an OS can run easily on any CPU as the CPU just does math so it must be some crazy conspiracy by Microsoft to do evil. It is 2017 and the CPU is silicon on a chip to compete with the ipad. It does I/O, video, ethernet, usb 3, chipset features, raid, and lots more. These need drivers to work.

Not saying MS is a saint here. Just saying if AMD doesn't want to work on it how is Microsoft the bad guy here? My i7 4770K does my raid, it does my usb 3, it does some of my ethernet, it has my memory controller. In the past these were seperate chips on the motherboard. Today these are inside the CPU.

Re:Microsoft made this announcement a while back

[omnichad]

I'm not saying it should work - not having drivers for the north/south bridge seems to be what's broken (on-die or not, it's not the CPU). I'm just saying they shouldn't block people from trying. If someone wants to cobble together a way to make it work, BSODs and all, let them. If Intel or AMD may release drivers (after hell freezes over) or someone finds a way to backport them unsigned or someone wants to write something from scratch, why should MS put an artificial lock on the door?

One more reason I'm glad I'm using Linux

[Jastiv]

Every time I read an article like this, I"m so glad I'm not using windows anymore on my computer. I thought about getting it briefly and trying some windows only games. Nope, too many hassles like this would take away the fun. Linux I can upgrade when I want, if I want, how I want to upgrade. I don't want microsoft forcing stuff on me.

Re:Microsoft made this announcement a while back

[Anonymous Coward]

Psst, I don't encourage it because I don't own a personal Windows license, you overwrought twatbasket. I'm merely pointing out how this works when you examine their obligations rationally, as opposed to how you think it should be. If you think THIS sucks, you should see the termination of licensing sections of the Windows EULA. There's nothing "blatantly" illegal about it, at least not in the US and to say otherwise is not purely semantics. Feel free to be the one to challenge the EULA yourself if you like. You're the Linux version of the Simpson's comic book guy and do your cause no favors. It's just a fucking operating system, not your god damned waifu.

Re:I tried to move to Ubuntu, Lenovo wouldn't let

[Anonymous Coward]

Thinkpads do this, it's pretty standard with business-class laptops.

Re: Microsoft made this announcement a while back

[c.r.o.c.o]

FYI, I am currently a Linux sysadmin, working for a 100% Linux shop. Outside my gaming rig, I've run Linux for about 20 years. Longer than I've had my /. account. And I believe it is the first time I've been called a shill, and I've had my post down voted as Flamebait.

It really doesn't change the fact Microsoft announced this move one year ago. I'm not sure what you and the other snowflakes on this site were expecting.

Anyway, probably my last post on /. I am too old for online arguments.

Re:Microsoft made this announcement a while back

[Anonymous Coward]

So why did AMD publish drivers for Windows 7 then?

http://support.amd.com/en-us/kb-articles/Pages/am4-chipset-driver.aspx

Re:I tried to move to Ubuntu, Lenovo wouldn't let

[Anonymous Coward]

Lenovo is one.

Re:I tried to move to Ubuntu, Lenovo wouldn't let

[Anonymous Coward]

go sit in the Naughty step.
Ubuntu is not the answer to anything unless you are already a Ubuntu fanboi.
There are plenty of other newbie friendly Linux distros that are better for converts. Some even look like their old windows.
I don't use Ubuntu directly now. I use Mint+Cinammon on my laptop. Perfect for MS Converts.
My servers run CentOS because it is far more stable than Ubuntu LTS.

Re:Microsoft made this announcement a while back

[Anonymous Coward]

If drivers are needed, then does that mean that Windows 10 can BSOD at the beginning of the boot process before drivers are loaded?

Re:I tried to move to Ubuntu, Lenovo wouldn't let

[Anonymous Coward]

A vendor called FUD

Microsoft is EXTRAORDINARILY abusive!

[Anonymous Coward]

I agree. Incredible!

Windows 10 is possibly the worst spyware ever made. From that article: "Buried in the service agreement is permission to poke through everything on your PC."

My opinion: There should be far stronger protests, including legal action and laws against that kind of abuse.

Re:Microsoft made this announcement a while back

[kubajz]

Please calm down. Accusing someone of being a shill and then posting "MS hasn't tested a patch before deploying it in 3 fucking years"? Almost nobody likes Microsoft in this corner of the Web, but here I was thinking Slashdot modders usually favor reasonable discussion...

Re: I tried to move to Ubuntu, Lenovo wouldn't let

[Anonymous Coward]

Actually, it's called whitelisting.

Re:I tried to move to Ubuntu, Lenovo wouldn't let

[Anonymous Coward]

I think that was one of the points of the Middleton BIOS for some Thinkpad models: getting rid of the miniPci Wificard whitelist. Other points were the ability to use a Penryn on a Merom board, and to use 3Gbps SATAII instead of half speed SATAI.

Using this without problems because of the Penryn, cannot vouch for the other effects but have no reason to doubt them.

Re:Microsoft made this announcement a while back

[Anonymous Coward]

It is 2017 and the CPU is silicon on a chip to compete with the ipad. It does I/O, video, ethernet, usb 3, chipset features, raid, and lots more. These need drivers to work.

All of those already have Windows 7 drivers from the manufacturers of the new chipsets or motherboards. Windows 7 runs fine on a Kaby Lake system with ethernet and the other features. And in any case, driver support issues do not justify locking users of the OS out of security updates that have nothing to do with the CPU model to begin with, this is just Microsoft abusing their monopoly to force users to upgrade to Windows 10. Even more so if 8.1 gets the same treatment despite not even being very old. Although it might be a more reasonable policy if only a small subset of the updates is locked out, even then the missing updates would eventually begin to break other ones that depend on them.

Re:Microsoft made this announcement a while back

[gweihir]

You can make anything bsod in a youtube video. It is pretty easy.

Re:Microsoft made this announcement a while back

[Anonymous Coward]

The guy you're responding to is probably a Windows admin depending on Windows 7. And Microsoft screwed him as only it can. If I was him, I would be royally pissed too, including at people who are trying to defend the MS actions, sarcastically or not. He certainly has the right to be pissed.

And to the guy who was called a shill: Your post was marked as flamebait because it was flamebait. Posting that info that we all already knew, but were secretly hoping that it wouldn't actually happen, that MS would reverse its decision... irritated many people. And one of the definitions for flamebaiting is "reminding people the irritating truth".

Re:I tried to move to Ubuntu, Lenovo wouldn't let

[AmiMoJo]

Lenovo does it on some machines, as do HP and Dell. It depends on the model and the part of the world where the machine is sold.

It's because in some places they have to do it for regulatory reasons. If they install a high gain antenna than the maximum output power of the card has to be limited to prevent it exceeding the legal maximum. If you replace the card with a random one it might be too high power.

At least in the case of Thinkpads it is fairly easy to patch the BIOS.

rofl

[Anonymous Coward]

lemme help you out there mate: ubuntu.com/download
You're welcome.

That's why I run LINUX!

[Anonymous Coward]

I've run Linux on my PC since 2002, and Exclusively Linux since 2010. Microsoft can keep their progressively crappier OS. I can say that, because up until XP, people WANTED to upgrade to the latest OS. Since that time, It's mostly been downhill.

Re:I tried to move to Ubuntu, Lenovo wouldn't let

[AllyGreen]

Ubuntu do a certified program now, https://certification.ubuntu.c... Might not work with all distro's but certainly helped me pick out a new thinkpad recently.

Why not just upgrade to Windows 10?

[Anonymous Coward]

I see no reason not just update the machine from 7 to 10. There is virtually nothing difference except better security, faster boot, better support. Windows 7 was/is great, but its 7 years old.

Re:Why not just upgrade to Windows 10?

[Holi]

Run the Cisco Vpn Client on Windows 10, go ahead I'll wait.

Re: Microsoft made this announcement a while back

[Anonymous Coward]

I'm not sure what you and the other snowflakes on this site were expecting.

You have a six digit UID and you aren't aware that this is the place where magical autists pretended they were smarter than the average sheeple by typing Microsoft with an $ for nearly a decade after it was fashionable?

Either I'm way too old, or you're way too naive.

This suits Intel to an extent

[sasparillascott]

Intel has been going along with what Microsoft has been doing here (Microsoft not building drivers for the last 2 gens of Intel x64 chips). AMD wrote Windows 7 drivers for their new Zen Ryzen architecture that just came out, specifically because Microsoft wouldn't - so AMD's customers could use Windows 7. Typical morally bankrupt choice by Microsoft executives, again...seems built into the corporate culture...and Intel wasn't writing drivers for Kaby Lake (and Skylake was a pain to get Win 7 to work on) so they were going along.

Makes me want to get an AMD system and use one of the non Microsoft update services (http://www.wsusoffline.net/), (http://www.autopatcher.net/forum/) just to give Microsoft the finger - although Linux with a Windows VM (for any Win32 have to have's) is probably the best way to give them the finger.

Re:This suits Intel to an extent

[Grishnakh]

How is it "morally bankrupt"? Why do they have any obligation to support customers with brand-new hardware on an ancient OS version that they're phasing out? The OS they're selling now is Windows 10. If you hate it so much, then buy an old CPU, or find an OS that you do like. It's not their responsibility to make you happy; their responsibility is to make money.

Re: This suits Intel to an extent

[Anonymous Coward]

"Ancient"

Re: This suits Intel to an extent

[Anonymous Coward]

"How is it "morally bankrupt"?"
Later...
"It's not their responsibility to make you happy; their responsibility is to make money."
There, look. That's how it is morally bankrupt. Why do you think the word "bankrupt" is in there? It is literally about selling out your morals.

"Why do they have any obligation to support customers with brand-new hardware on an ancient OS version that they're phasing out?"
They don't. Nobody said they did. What they did that was wrong was put a lock on an update for no good reason. The update doesn't care what CPU it runs on but the installer says no anyways. They had to write extra code to make that happen. When you pay Microsoft you are paying them to code useless extra stuff that nobody wants or needs? Is that really how you want to spend your money?

"The OS they're selling now is Windows 10."
That's cool. They need a better ad campaign than "we are going to sabatoge our old software to make you upgrade."

"If you hate it so much, then buy an old CPU, or find an OS that you do like. "
LOL. You mad. I'm fine with Windows 7. Probably forever. I used 98 until 2007. Then XP until 7 came.

Re: This suits Intel to an extent

[Grishnakh]

There, look. That's how it is morally bankrupt. Why do you think the word "bankrupt" is in there? It is literally about selling out your morals.

What are you talking about? What morals? We're talking about a corporation here; there are no morals involved. Corporations are fundamentally amoral, and they're run by fundamentally amoral people.

What they did that was wrong was put a lock on an update for no good reason.

Bullshit. They have a very good reason: to coerce people into upgrading to Windows 10, where they can make money from them with advertising and spying.

They had to write extra code to make that happen.

Yes, that very small investment will pay for itself by coercing more people to upgrade to Win10.

When you pay Microsoft you are paying them to code useless extra stuff that nobody wants or needs?

What makes you think "nobody" wants this stuff? Microsoft wants this stuff, and that's all that matters.

Is that really how you want to spend your money?

I don't spend my money on Microsoft. I'm simply explaining the rationale for MS's decisions. You should ask that question to the legions of people who *do* spend their money on MS-ware.

They need a better ad campaign than "we are going to sabatoge our old software to make you upgrade."

What they're doing now seems to be working, and could likely be the most optimal method of generating revenue.

I'm fine with Windows 7.

Have fun not getting any new security updates, not being able to upgrade to newer CPUs, and at some point not being able to run newer software. If you're OK with all that stuff, then knock yourself out.

Re:This suits Intel to an extent

[knorthern knight]

> How is it "morally bankrupt"? Why do they have any obligation to support customers
> with brand-new hardware on an ancient OS version that they're phasing out?

Microsoft *PROMISED* extended support for Windows 7 to January 2020 https://support.microsoft.com/... I suppose they can weasel their way out of calling it an outright lie, but people expected January 2020 to mean January 2020.

> The OS they're selling now is Windows 10. If you hate it so much, then buy an old CPU, or find an OS
> that you do like. It's not their responsibility to make you happy; their responsibility is to make money.

If you had bought a 2014 model car with warranty coverage to 2020, and the manufacturer suddenly decided that since they're now selling 2017 models, they're going to renege on their warranty,, how would you feel?

Re:This suits Intel to an extent

[Grishnakh]

They didn't promise to support Win7 on brand-new hardware. Obviously, what they meant was to support Win7 on the hardware you're already using.

That may seem weasely to you, which is fine, but if you don't like a weasely vendor, then pick another one. They have every right to be weasely with their promises, and you have every right to take your business elsewhere.

If you had bought a 2014 model car with warranty coverage to 2020, and the manufacturer suddenly decided that since they're now selling 2017 models, they're going to renege on their warranty,, how would you feel?

Incorrect analogy. They haven't stopped supporting Win7 on the hardware it was already running on.

A better analogy is that you've bought a 2014 model car with warranty coverage to 2020. Now they've released a new engine in the 2017 models, and you want to transplant the new engine into your 2014 car and still get warranty support. That won't happen; the mfgr has no obligation to support that.

(Even this analogy has a problem in that in cars, the engine and the car come from the same company and are sold together as an integrated unit. The same is not true of OSes and the computer hardware and CPUs they run on. Perhaps a better analogy would be using a Kenworth truck with a Caterpillar engine, and wanting to install a new Caterpillar engine in it which Kenworth doesn't support.)

Well that just screws me today

[Holi]

Can't use 10 as my VPN client is not supported. I guess I have to bill Microsoft for this new hardware I just bought. Time for a lawsuit

That's OK

[andrewa]

I only ever run Windows as a VM anyway.

I doubt this nonsense will stop

[BadTuna]

Why am I not surprised. Thankfully 2016 was my "Year of Linux".

Re:I tried to move to Ubuntu, Lenovo wouldn't let

[Anonymous Coward]

IBM / Lenovo do this , Fortunately i have box of mixed wifi cards from assorted machines , 2 cards out of about 20 would allow the machine to boot.
After actually booting i admit i had to manually download the firmware for the card but that would apply if i was silly enough to install windows of any version.
( I dont need any windows software and do not play any games more up to date than doom etc )
The last version of windows on my home network was windows NT3.? with the 95 style desktop as i used to write windows auditing software for work but used slackware for all my personal machines. These days i refuse to allow ANY windows machine on my network. These days i use debian and other than some admittedly minor hassles with systemD have no complaints.
( systemd 'hmm cant load this wifi driver so i will just continue trying forever and use 50% cpu till i manually installed firmware blob
this i call a stupid bug! maybe try N times then just put a failure notice a logfile i will admit this is the only bug i have found with systemd but its not a bug that a novice linux could probably fix )

Slipstream

[Holi]

I was obviously kidding about a lawsuit.

I just slipstream the updates into my install media. Problem solved

Microsoft is a bully

[Anonymous Coward]

When you see what Microsoft is doing, it's bullying users into Windows 10. It used to be Microsoft really did not care what Windows version you ran as long as it was Windows. Of course now, Windows 10 is a data mining and ad supported OS that Microsoft is counting on for revenue. Its taken so many wrong turns that adaption rates are almost nil after the free upgrade period. I'm sure this CPU's just won't work, but its very possible that AMD and Intel will comply and not provide good support for those chips.

Re:Microsoft made this announcement a while back

[Anonymous Coward]

A while back Microsoft made the announcement that Skylake will be the last CPU generation they will support with Windows 7 and 8.

And did they state that they would *deliberately block updates* for later CPUs, even though they work perfectly fine 'unsupported'?

No they fucking did not.

Can't understand how anyone could defend this.

Re:I tried to move to Ubuntu, Lenovo wouldn't let

[Anonymous Coward]

Lenovo did/does this. I had to replace a faulty wifi adapter in my wife's old laptop and it would throw a bios error. I was able to find a modified version of the bios that had modified/neutralized the white list check that Lenovo uses, but it was annoying.

You can read more about their white list here

More evil than Saten himself

[thunderclees]

Oh its no big deal, it is just M$ being evil again, we all should be used to that now. They want lusers to go on to ad supported W10. This will last until the utter raeg rises from researchers and business types forces them to recant lest these guys replace Windows with Ubuntu/Mint.

Qemu/kvm concerns: Surely not the only solution.

[Anonymous Coward]

Bear in mind that using "-cpu host" on qemu with kvm may still allow Windows to properly (and unfortunately) detect the CPU unless qemu/kvm comes up with a workaround a la NVIDIA and their driver shenanigans. You'd have to set it to another CPU earlier than that, and I'm not 100% what that would mean for performance (compared to -cpu host on a authentically earlier processor)

REally?

[Anonymous Coward]

Most kids that want a slimmed down operating system can still buy i386.
AMD's Ryzen and Intel's i5 Kaby Lake has LOTS OF FEATURES(some kids call it BloatWare in HardWare).
I'm glad that AMD and Intel is making progress with EXTRA FEATURES in their HardWare.
I would also like EVERY Operating SYSTEM to Add more features and EVERY Software to Add more features.
Example... Let's look at open source so Corporate lawyers don't come after us.
Example: I think it's better for developers to add extra features in LibreOffice, AbiWord, etc instead of spending time to create a distro and graphic User interface (GUI). There is already GUI designed for everyone GNOME 3.x(Mobile GUI), KDE(Desktop Gui) , LXDE ( i686 GUI), Mate (Desktop), Cinnamon (Desktop GUI) and there is so much more GUI.
It's time for developers to start creating extra features in open source apps and line them selves with Startups that provide open source software.
They can take your job away from U if you develop for Microsoft to someone for $34,000. Open Source will keep U employed.
Get with an MBA graduate for open source companies.

Why? Answer is easy :)

[Anonymous Coward]

FTA
> It's impossible to find any justification for this decision to halt support ...
> ... only resolution is to upgrade to Windows 10.

Impossible? MS tell us why, (not that we like it). Older, successful, and working systems are purposefully being ignored/flagged to 'encourage' users to be on "The One System" (tm).

See? We're supposed to like it once we try it :^/ *koff

CPUs don't need drivers

[Anonymous Coward]

The only thing a Windows "cpu driver" does is patch microcode.... something any up to date firmware can do

UWP strikes again

[HalAtWork]

This is why they are building UWP as a walled garden and making it a separate distinct environment from Win32. Eventually if you run any Win32 apps, "secured" UWP apps will refuse to run. Eventually they will do away with Win32 arguing it has too many attack vectors as due to the growing disparity between it and UWP, it won't receive fixes or updates.

They will tell gamers they can have no cheaters and no CPU wasting anti-piracy software. They will tell users interested in productivity that they will have better performance with no need for an antivirus. They will also have the cross platform/device app ecosystem they always wanted.

And then RIAA/MPAA will have the secure path they want.

Re:Microsoft made this announcement a while back

[Holi]

Since they said the same thing about Skylake and backtracked due to public outcry I think we know how this will end.

Every day

[Anonymous Coward]

It seems like every day there is a new story that reinforces my decision to move away from Microsoft. I've known for a while that Windows 10 will not be on any of my devices. I've also planned for a while that my next computer (Ryzen) would be on Linux. Currently my main is Windows 7. I dumped all Microsoft Office and Adobe products a while ago for open source alternatives, which was a decision I've been very happy with. My secondary PC, laptops and file servers are all on Mint or Debian. Another decision that I have been thrilled about. I'm still on Windows 7 only because of the games. After I buy my new computer, I'll move Windows 7 to my secondary computer just for those Windows games I don't want to live without. Moving forward, there will be very few Windows only games that I will buy.

I'm thankful for Windows 10 though. It appears to have the affect of getting a lot more people interested in Linux, and Linux development has come a long way lately. Even Steam jumped on board and helped Linux gaming gain serious traction.

Legal issues

[xgeorgio]

Anyone with proper Win7/Win8.x license will probably be able to sue M$ for this. Since their technical support is still active and the hardware at setup time was accepted as compatible, this is a violation of EULA. It is like buying a car and then the company suddenly changes the left-side steering wheel with a right-side one, mandatory to keep its service active. Typical M$. Switch to Linux now.

MS-DOS support isn't relevant

[Shirley Marquez]

The important differences between various generations of CPU don't affect real mode operation, the old school mode that is used to run MS-DOS. They come into play in kernel mode instructions that are used for things like protection, memory management, and multitasking. Some changes have to be made to Windows, as well as other operating systems such as macOS and Linux, every time a new CPU generation becomes available.

In some cases, the new CPU will work with code for older OSes but won't perform optimally. We know now, for example, that the disappointing performance of Ryzen in many games is due in part to the Windows scheduler not being properly optimized for the new CPU architecture. There are three things it does wrong. First, you want to schedule all the cores before you start to schedule the SMT threads; Windows already gets that right for Intel Hyperthreading but not yet for Ryzen's equivalent. Second, if you do schedule SMT threads you want to put threads of the same applications on both threads of a given core. Third, Ryzen has a split L3 cache architecture: cores 1-4 have direct access to one half of the cache and cores 5-8 have direct access to the other half, and cache access to the wrong half is much slower. For optimum performance, the scheduler needs to take that into account, keeping all the threads of an application on one side of the split whenever possible.

Re:MS-DOS support isn't relevant

[Anonymous Coward]

Third, Ryzen has a split L3 cache architecture: cores 1-4 have direct access to one half of the cache and cores 5-8 have direct access to the other half, and cache access to the wrong half is much slower. For optimum performance, the scheduler needs to take that into account, keeping all the threads of an application on one side of the split whenever possible.

Funny, Vista/2k8/7/2k8R2/8/2k12/8.1/2k12R2 handle that properly while Win10/2k16 don't.
It's almost as if some moron ripped out the "if it reports as one package with split LLCs, treat it like a UMA MP system" heuristic originally added for Kentsfield/Clovertown Core2"Quad" ...

Re: Microsoft made this announcement a while back

[sexconker]

Microsoft absolutely did not announce this, you clown. Show me where they announced they would artificially block access to the critical update service for new, "unsupported" (but completely functional) hardware.

There's a difference between not supporting something and actively blocking it despite the fact that it works. In fact, MS hasn't provided actual support for Windows 7 beyond security and time zone patches since SP1. Security patches are supposed to be provided until 2020. We have a little under 3 years left of support. Contractually-obligated support.

MS is actively sabotaging the update service for new hardware. If they merely "didn't support" it , then it would still work. None of the OS/Office/etc. patches nor the update services care what CPU you're running.

CPU drivers that contain microcode fixes, or provide support for the various power states, can be delivered by Intel and AMD with or without Windows Update. Microcode fixes can also be included in BIOS/UEFI updates. But MS has already strong-armed Intel and AMD to not providing such support for Windows 7. Try getting access to the built-in GPU on Kaby Lake on Windows 7, or proper support for the chipset. Hell, Intel tried this back with Skylake - forcing the USB controller into USB 3 mode always, thus breaking the Windows 7 installation process for anyone installing from a USB drive or using a USB keyboard. The uproar back then forced Intel and MS to backtrack and provide an official method of integrating XHCI drivers for Intel's shit into the Windows 7 installer. The Taiwanese mobo manufacturers, of course, had been providing such workarounds on their own because they care about their customers since they have competition.

Maybe you are too old for this, because you clearly have no clue what's going on.

Re:Microsoft made this announcement a while back

[Anonymous Coward]

why should MS put an artificial lock on the door?

To protect their own interests, (profits), and to enforce their contractual obligations (US spying, MAFFIA demands, etc.) Plus it grants legal protection under the DMCA. ("We put in place a technological protection measure against running Windows 7 / 8.1 on these chipsets. Therefore your efforts to get Windows 7 / 8.1 to support these chipsets by your own ability, infringes on our rights to forbid you from doing so.")

Understand Windows 7

[Anonymous Coward]

While I understand them doing it to Windows 7, Windows 8 is still in mainstream support.

Re:Microsoft made this announcement a while back

[Anonymous Coward]

Did you see the BSOD? Watchdog timer means an internal threading and responses from the CPU were not understood or misprocessed by the kernel.

Yes this is because no OS support for that architecture was in the kernel.

Re: Microsoft made this announcement a while back

[Billly Gates]

FYI, I am currently a Linux sysadmin, working for a 100% Linux shop. Outside my gaming rig, I've run Linux for about 20 years. Longer than I've had my /. account. And I believe it is the first time I've been called a shill, and I've had my post down voted as Flamebait.

It really doesn't change the fact Microsoft announced this move one year ago. I'm not sure what you and the other snowflakes on this site were expecting.

Anyway, probably my last post on /. I am too old for online arguments.

Also I would like to point out about Linux support for something like Ubuntu 9,06/12 or CEntOS 5 on Kaby Lake or Ryzen? It would be absurb to expect support or to have them even run on newer hardware. Windows 7 came out in 2009 and is from the error of the products I described.

Do all the haters here expect Android gingerbread 2.2 to run on a brand new Android Nexus 6p or Samsung Galaxy s7? Will Samsung or Google provide free patches for Gingerbread on these devices? Ludicrous.

Look if you want to run an 8 year old OS then it is best to have older hardware around or run it in a VM. That to me is reasonable. Only this decade have I seen ABSOLUTE DEMAND to run 10+ year old operating systems on new hardware. Why?? It's ridiculous.

Re:I tried to move to Ubuntu, Lenovo wouldn't let

[thegarbz]

I will never buy another computer with Microsoft's software on it from these companies again.

Yes because Microsoft software is what causes Lenovo to check to ensure you bought a Lenovo compatible wifi card for your Lenovo laptop. 100% Microsoft's fault. Absolutely no one else ... no siireee.

Re:Microsoft made this announcement a while back

[thegarbz]

You linked to a video where the guy admitted up front that it was overclocked to 5GHz and the tests are all running overclocked and when he backed it off it ran just fine at the end. That has to be the most retarded example I've seen.

Now, you know what's changed since 1990 regarding forward compatibility on CPUs? Nothing, nada. You know which instruction set it has? x86. It even has those wonderfully advanced instructions like MMX developed in 1997. There is NO reason any standard compiled code for x86 shouldn't run on the latest Kaby Lake, much less code that ran fine on Skylake.

Now there's one potential difference. Undocumented instructions. If my OS used undocumented CPU instructions, I would change OS in a heartbeat.

Re:Agreed. Linux from here on.

[Anonymous Coward]

Windows is done for me, and all machines I'm installing from now on. Linux Mint works very well for all noob users.
As for me I have amazing software choices freedoms.

Re:Microsoft made this announcement a while back

[Anonymous Coward]

You linked to a video where the guy admitted up front that it was overclocked to 5GHz and the tests are all running overclocked and when he backed it off it ran just fine at the end. That has to be the most retarded example I've seen.

Now, you know what's changed since 1990 regarding forward compatibility on CPUs? Nothing, nada. You know which instruction set it has? x86. It even has those wonderfully advanced instructions like MMX developed in 1997. There is NO reason any standard compiled code for x86 shouldn't run on the latest Kaby Lake, much less code that ran fine on Skylake.

Now there's one potential difference. Undocumented instructions. If my OS used undocumented CPU instructions, I would change OS in a heartbeat.

Nope because it runs 10 fine.

Take a look at this guy trying older Windows on Kaby Lake? Failure https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SuVzTR5_HFU&t=24s

Re:I tried to move to Ubuntu, Lenovo wouldn't let

[mattventura]

I'm pretty sure it's bullshit, otherwise the laptop manufacturers that don't lock it down would have been sued over it by now. Even my old MacBook (when it still had a plain old miniPCIe slot) will accept any card.

Common myth but still a myth

[dbIII]

VMS ... Some of it survives in Windows

Salesfolk like to push that line but that is no more true than suggesting that CP/M lies at the heart of MS Windows10 due to some identical syntax. For copyright reasons and due to budget constraints the people who worked on NT could not make it very much like the VMS that they had previously worked on.

WSUS Offline keeps failing for me

[Anonymous Coward]

Keeps failing for me.

2017-03-19 10:07:18.78 - Info: Starting WSUS Offline Update download (v. 10.9.1) for w63-x64 glb
2017-03-19 10:07:18.78 - Info: Option /includedotnet detected
2017-03-19 10:07:18.80 - Info: Option /includemsse detected
2017-03-19 10:07:18.81 - Info: Option /verify detected
2017-03-19 10:07:18.82 - Info: Option /exitonerror detected
2017-03-19 10:07:18.87 - Info: Set time zone to LOC3:00
2017-03-19 10:07:18.94 - Info: Preserved custom language and architecture additions and removals
2017-03-19 10:07:19 URL:http://download.wsusoffline.net/StaticDownloadFiles-modified.txt [0/0] -> "../static/StaticDownloadFiles-modified.txt" [1]
2017-03-19 10:07:19 URL:http://download.wsusoffline.net/ExcludeDownloadFiles-modified.txt [0/0] -> "../exclude/ExcludeDownloadFiles-modified.txt" [1]
2017-03-19 10:07:19 URL:http://download.wsusoffline.net/StaticUpdateFiles-modified.txt [195/195] -> "../client/static/StaticUpdateFiles-modified.txt" [1]
2017-03-19 10:07:21.07 - Info: Updated static and exclude definitions for download and update
2017-03-19 10:07:21.08 - Info: Restored custom language and architecture additions and removals
2017-03-19 10:07:23.12 - Info: Downloaded/validated mkisofs tool
2017-03-19 10:07:24.06 - Info: Downloaded Sysinternals' tools Autologon, Sigcheck and Streams
2017-03-19 10:10:21.56 - Info: Downloaded/validated most recent Windows Update catalog file
2017-03-19 10:10:21.57 - Warning: Deleted unsigned file "C:\wsusoffline\client\wsus\wsusscn2.cab"
2017-03-19 10:10:21.91 - Error: Catalog file ..\client\wsus\wsusscn2.cab signature verification failure

Re:Microsoft made this announcement a while back

[toddestan]

Keep in mind that they are doing this to Windows 8.1 too. Windows 8.1 is still in mainstream support, so not supporting current CPUs in an OS that's under mainstream support is total bullshit.

Re:I tried to move to Ubuntu, Lenovo wouldn't let

[Anonymous Coward]

Don't feed the troll. Don't feed the troll... What the heck, I'll throw him a bone.

The list:

• HP / Compaq
• Gateway / eMachines
• Dell
• MSI / Acer / Asus / Packard Bell
• Apple more likely limited by driver availability, though. Would like to get a Boot Camp user's opinion

So, in short, any computer that you're going to purchase at Wal-Mart, Best Buy, Woolworth's, JC Penny's, Venture, Kohl's or wherever. Throw Amazon and Newegg in there for good measure.

Howsabout keeping your promises?

[knorthern knight]

> Microsoft needs to focus on what's next, not what was.

Microsoft promised extended support for Windows 7 into 2020 https://support.microsoft.com/... If they break that promise, why should anybody trust anything else they ever promise?

Re:Microsoft made this announcement a while back

[Anonymous Coward]

No others have noticed.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?...

CPUs are whole silicon on a chip platform. This isn't 1990 anymore where they just do math and nothing special from the operating system is needed anymore. Thanks to Tablets and mobile the new thing is to put everything on the CPU.

Actually it was to reduce mobo costs and to do things like allowing the CPU and iGPU to share the same address space for gpgpu.