Microsoft Thinks USB-C Isn't Ready For the Mainstream (digitaltrends.com)

When Microsoft unveiled the Surface Laptop last week, it left many customers and members of the press scratching their heads over its lack of a USB Type-C port. According to general manager of Surface Engineering, Pete Kyriacou, Microsoft seems to think that the technology isn't ready for the mainstream. Digital Trends reports: Microsoft does not want customers to deal with the various Type-C cables, underwhelming chargers, all the adapters, and the third-party Type-C docks. That is why the Surface Laptop features only one USB 3.1 Gen1 Type-A port, one headphone jack, one Mini DisplayPort connector, and the Surface Connect port. Simplicity. That latter connection is how customers can "safely" expand their Surface device experience. Microsoft's $200 Microsoft Surface Dock adds two Mini DisplayPort connectors, one gigabit Ethernet port, four USB 3.1 Gen1 Type-A ports, and one audio out port. The dock connects to a compatible Surface device via Microsoft's proprietary Surface Connect port. Right now, it works with the Surface Pro 3, Surface Pro 4, and Surface Book but the Surface Laptop will undoubtedly be added soon. While limiting a Surface device's connectivity seems like forcing customers into purchasing the dock, Microsoft sees this setup as brand stability. Customers won't get ticked at Microsoft because they are confused about the different types of cables, chargers, and so on. Microsoft is controlling the end-to-end experience and there is nothing wrong with that.

Comments

because

[Anonymous Coward]

Microsoft has good judgement

Re:because

[Beau1080p]

This time, yes. I like USB C and all. Features looked really cool, so I got a laptop that I can charge over USB C. But I ran into the same "early adopter" issues as I did when I got a USB 3.0 mobo around 2010. Bugs weren't all worked out and I ended up with errors causing the motherboard to reject the device or "unplug" it and it would randomly power back up hours later or if I swapped ports. Having the same problem now with USB C power supply. Give it another six months and it will be straightened out.

So even by random chance, Microsoft is going to get one right every now and then. Don't be a hater, AC.

--Beau

Re:because

[ArmoredDragon]

Honestly I've never had any problems with either USB 3 or Type-C, even when they were brand new.

IMO if they wanted to do something awesome, put one Thunderbolt 3 port and one USB 3.0 port on it, and nothing else. THAT would be simplicity. Then they could make their little dock thing just connect to the Thunderbolt port and work with just any Thunderbolt 3 device. Instead what we end up with is yet another proprietary power adapter, and both the power adapter and the dock become useless once you no longer have the computer.

Another bonus of using Thunderbolt 3 is that you could use an external GPU enclosure (i.e. Razer Core) and add any desktop GPU of your choice to it. Word is they work pretty damn well, though you sacrifice about 15% of the GPU's performance vs a regular desktop setup. (That, and Mac users will struggle to get them to work, but IIRC Apple did that deliberately.)

And for anybody who doesn't know, Thunderbolt 3 is 100% compatible with any USB-C device; uses the same form factor and the pinout is compatible.

Re:because

[Anonymous Coward]

Of course MS knows better than us that its new proprietary connector is much more ready for mainstream than the standard USB-C.

Re:because

[Roger W Moore]

This time, yes.

I disagree. USB-C is clearly going to replace USB-A over time. It works well and provides high speed and good power connectivity. However not many devices support it yet so if you want a machine that you can use today and still use in a few years time the best bet is a machine which supports both USB-A and C. Instead we have Apple producing machines which will be great in a few years time but bad now and MS providing ones which are great now but will be a pain in a few years time....which is why I bought a Dell with both USB-A and C so I can use it now and in a few years time.

Re:because

[jellomizer]

Especially for external devices, if it fits it should work. Right now with USB-c there are too many different types of wires that can degrade or make devices unusable.

Re:because

[TheRaven64]

The problem with USB-C is that there are multiple power levels and some of the cheap cables don't correctly identify their maximum current, so end up catching fire when plugged into something that can provide the higher power levels. Unfortunately, these are typically sold on sites alongside the ones that will work fine.

Re:because

[AmiMoJo]

Thunderbolt is a huge security hole. I'd rather not have the ability to plug things into my PCIe bus externally, thanks. At least with USB you have some hope of securing it.

Re:because

[jeremyp]

Thunderbolt 3 and USB 3 can both use the same physical USB-C port. That's what Apple laptops do.

So rather than one of each, just port two combined ports on - or more.

Re:because

[BenBoy]

Sorry, not true. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/...

Re:because

[petermgreen]

I remain unconvinced.

Firstly there is lots of functionality but it is pretty much all optional. Maybe that port supports delivering lots of power to devices, maybe that port supports receiving power from a power brick, maybe that port supports host mode, maybe that port supports device mode, maybe that port supports displayport, maybe that port support HDMI, maybe that port supports thunderbolt, maybe that port supports USB 3.1 speeds, maybe that port supports analog audio. Lots and lots of room for user confusion and frustration there.

Secondly it is more expensive for implementers because for signal integrity reasons you need seperate LVDS transceivers for the two sides of the USB3 socket. In normal operation only half of them will be used. If you want to support the optional functionality like displayport or thunderbolt or power delivery that adds further costs. If an implementer only supports the aditional functionality on a subset of ports then users are going to get even more confused.

Thirdly you are allowed to have adaptors with a USB C plug and a USB A (or B) socket but not vice-versa. The implications of this for peripheral vendors should be obvious.

Fourthly a number of cable vendors have fucked up the power delivery stuff leading to cables that are dangerous to device and/or user.

I expect USB C to find a niche, it's useful as a univeral port on small but highly functional devices (smartphones, tablets, ultrabooks etc). It's useful as a "docking station" port for laptop users who only want to hook up one cable when they come to their desk but for the forseable future I expect most perhiperals to stick with regular single-function connectors.

Re:because

[Shirley Marquez]

That's actually part of the problem. There are a bunch of ports that look exactly like USB-C ports but they don't all do the same thing. You see something on your computer or phone that looks like a USB-C port but it could be any number of things:

1. A bog standard USB-C port that implements Superspeed Gen 2 USB (10Gbps)
2. A USB 3.0 standard port (5Gbps)
3. A USB 2.0 standard port (480Mbps) - these are mostly on phones
4. A Thunderbolt 3 port that implements some unknown number of PCIe lanes
5. A USB-C port that implements HDMI Alternate Mode (USB-C to HDMI with no dongle)
6. A USB-C port that implements DisplayPort Alternate Mode (USB-C to DP with no dongle)
7. A USB-C port that will charge the device

What's the problem? You can't tell which set of capabilities a USB-C port has by looking at it. There are no standard device markings or color coding to tell the various kinds of ports apart. The only thing that will help is a spec sheet for the device. A computer with more than one USB-C port may not have the same capabilities on all of them, so whether a device will work depends on which port you plug it into.

Seems like Microsoft isn't ready for USB-C

[zerofoo]

I have zero issue with my nexus devices and my MacBook - both use USB-C and I have yet to find a cable or device that doesn't perform as intended on any of the devices.

The various flavors of USB are enough to drive someone to drink. USB-C is a welcome change that actually fulfills the promise of the word "Universal" in USB.

I think Microsoft is just chickening out here.

Re:Seems like Microsoft isn't ready for USB-C

[AndrewFlagg]

Not ready for Type-C? sounds Microsoft familiar. NIH syndrome.

Re:Seems like Microsoft isn't ready for USB-C

[Ark42]

I can't get my Nexus to charge 50% of the time when I plug it into a FULL external battery, because of USB-C. 50% of the time, My Nexus 5x thinks that the most logical default would be for the phone (at 15% battery left) to use it's remaining battery to charge the external battery, which is surely around 95% or more full already.
The whole bidirectional aspect of USB-C seems like a total failure to me. I have to remember to unlock my phone, pull down the menu at the, and change the charge direction. There is no way to set a default apparently, and no way to determine WHICH direction it will start with each time I plug it in.

Re:Seems like Microsoft isn't ready for USB-C

[msauve]

You: "I think Microsoft is just chickening out here."

Microsoft: "Industry standardized interfaces are too confusing for people, they should use our proprietary, device specific one."

I don't think that counts as "chickening out," it's Apple-like courage.

Re:Seems like Microsoft isn't ready for USB-C

[Anonymous Coward]

Broken plugs after a few times of usage.

Re:Seems like Microsoft isn't ready for USB-C

[ArmoredDragon]

Aside from Thunderbolt (which is pointless with USB 3.1), micro USB already does all of that. The only benefit USB-C has is that it can be connected upside down, which isn't enough to outweigh the benefits of micro USB.

MicroUSB does NOT provide video capability, unless you use one of those crappy dongles that does video compression. USB-C not only does actual full bandwidth video, but in the Thunderbolt 3 configuration it even provides a friggin PCI-e interface. They even make external GPU enclosures that allow you to run an actual desktop GPU on a laptop if you'd like, and it works pretty well.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?...

Not only that, but in terms of physical durability, USB-C will WAY outlast MicroUSB.

Re: Seems like Microsoft isn't ready for USB-C

[Bartles]

Serial cables were pretty ubiquitous too. I remember the day where I only had to carry one around and it would work for everything.

Re:Seems like Microsoft isn't ready for USB-C

[Anonymous Coward]

Sure you could send a 1080p@24fps video over USB...
1920*1080*3*24*8 = 11.9Gbit/s raw video data.. then you will most likely add a few percent on top of that in protocol-overhead so let's call it 12Gbit/s required for 1080p video.

Now lets see for USB speeds:
USB 2 - 480Mbit/s
USB 3.0 - 5Mbit/s -- Aka "SuperSpeed"
USB 3.1 - 10 Gbit/s

To reach the "SuperSpeed" you need at least 4 differential pairs in the cable (8 seperate physical leads in the cable) and then you need cables for power and such too. This is nothing microusb and all the older cables/connectors have..

Thunderbolt v1 - 2 10Gbit/s lanes. (20Gbit in total)
Thunderbolt v2 - 20Gbit/s (did not bother to research this.. probably per lane.)
Thunderbolt v3 - 40Gbit/s

So try to send anything above 720p on that USB 3.1 connection.

And then i had a look at your product-examples:
MHL : This one is not USB. This is just a way to bring out a custom datachannel from the phone via re-purposing an existing connector.
SlimPort : Same as the MHL..

They are both just a one-way displayport output that can be used over any 5-pin connection, and the only 5-pin output available on a phone is the USB-port.... But this is NOT USB... it's just repurposing an existing connector for it's own protocol.

Oh and there are USB to external PCI-e converters too. They've been around for a long time.

Yea, running at 10Gbit/s best-case, 5Gbit/s in many cases as long as you have the right cables with you and then for most people those would still run at 480Mbit/s or slower... If you look at the chinese crap that exist for this (what most people buy) the specs are crap and just provides the functionality of connecting a pci-e device to USB without considering performance.
Try fitting a uncompressed 1080p video over a "PCI-e -> USB 3.1 (10Gbit/s) -> Host" chain.. Would be even more overhead there too.

Re: Seems like Microsoft isn't ready for USB-C

[Hognoxious]

Bizzare, there's one staring at me right now from the top of my BOSINUBAUTTA[1]. Found it while looking for something else. It's one of those with both 9 and 25 pin connectors.

I also have a load of adapters and genderbenders somewhere, all joined together like a space ship. It's been so long since I used them they've probably seized together.

[1] box of shit I'll never use but am unable/unwilling to throw away

Re:Seems like Microsoft isn't ready for USB-C

[DrXym]

If you want to talk of years, think of the tens of thousands of man years wasted by people figuring out which way their USB cable was supposed to plug in. That alone makes USB-C a major improvement, one long overdue. You could buy a USB-A adapter to use an existing charger assuming the cable is joined to the charger and not replaceable. Not ideal but still possible.

Biggest issue with USB-C is the botched roll out, certification issues and fears that the standard allows devices to use DRM to gimp / disable support for "unauthorized" peripherals.

Re:Seems like Microsoft isn't ready for USB-C

[AmiMoJo]

You either have the world's worst external battery or are plugging it in to the wrong port. The way USB power supply works, the device has to detect that it is in host mode and negotiate with the device receiving charge before it will supply more than 100mA.

So in order for your problem to manifest, your external battery must be acting as a USB device rather than as dumb charger or host. That suggests you either plugged in to the charge port instead of the output port, or the battery has a really really really terrible USB controller in it.

USB-C is no more bidirectional than any other variant of USB. It's all negotiated over the USB protocol, just the same as older USB plugs and sockets.

Re:Seems like Microsoft isn't ready for USB-C

[jeremyp]

There are multiple different versions of "micro-USB". My laptop bag has currently got cables with four different connectors (five including the USB-C one) that all look roughly the same as a micro-USB but aren't.

There's mini-A, mini-B, micro-A, micro-B and something called UC-E6, plus whatever it is my camera uses. They all look roughly the same from a distance and in the case of some them, it's difficult to tell which way round they go in the socket until you try to ram them home. "Ramming home", coincidentally, is what I'd like to do with these plugs to anybody who whines that USB-C is making the situation worse.

Oh yes, and USB-3.1 does 10Gb/s whereas Thunderbolt 3 does 40Gb/s which is something you could have looked up pretty easily before falsely claiming it is pointless.

Both companies are insane

[DontBeAMoran]

Apple is dropping everything and only offers USB-C while Microsoft includes almost everything except USB-C.

It's like both companies don't want to have transition periods between the present and the future.

At least Microsoft isn't braindead and is keeping the traditional headphone jack. If it ain't broke, don't fix it.

Re:Both companies are insane

[Anonymous Coward]

Apple is not dropping everything. They are still retaining their proprietary iPhone connector which allows them to bilk customers for custom chargers.

Re:Both companies are insane

[EvilSS]

And people say they don't have choices!

Re:Both companies are insane

[thegarbz]

Sure if you externalize the costs of burning your house down.

It's there.

[0100010001010011]

My new laptop at work (ZBook 15 G3) has USB-C. It's everything USB should have been since the beginning.

Reversible, Just Works(Tm). It'll drive 2 4k external TVs.

Laptop itself has Ethernet, VGA, 3xUSB3.0 and 2xUSB-C ports. Holds 64GB of RAM, 2xM.2 NVMe drives and 1x 2.5" drive.

The dock could still use some work. You shouldn't have to issue a white paper on how to hook up monitors (Which is still wrong, the HDMI port drives 4k just fine.).

If I *need* to do some GPU work I can plug in an external GPU. Or gigabit ethernet or any other PCIe device.

Microsoft screwed up on this one. They're releasing old hardware. I bet they could have easily charged a surface on over USB Power Delivery. It's taken us a while but USB-C is pretty damn good as far as a physical connection. And Thunderbolt 3 is equally as good of a protocol.

For most people if the 'desktop is dead' it's because USB-C/TB killed it. I just want to plug my laptop into cluster of CPUs when I'm at my desk.

Re:It's there.

[DRJlaw]

If I *need* to do some GPU work I can plug in an external GPU. Or gigabit ethernet or any other PCIe device.

Which means that your ZBook 15 G3 has a Thunderbolt-enabled USB-C port. But you've simply called it USB-C, which could also be merely USB 3 Gen2, USB 3 Gen1, or even technically USB 2. Which provides a perfect case study for Microsoft's point.

I bet they could have easily charged a surface on over USB Power Delivery.

Of course, you charge your device through the USB-C port, right? Nope! Your laptop still has a separate charging port. But USB-C should let you charge a device at up to 100W. Don't you have USB-C? You said it could easily be done. Why not?

Which is Microsoft's point...

Re:It's there.

[Uberbah]

I honestly don't understand why the reversibility is such a big deal. (It reminds me of Apple fanboys raving about the superiority of rounded corners.)

Maybe because you're a twat. No checking to see if you have the plug facing the right way, you simply plug it in and you're done.

Re: It's there.

[Miamicanes]

Micro USB is almost *impossible* to plug into "by feel" -- at best, you'll be wrong half the time, *guaranteed*, if you try. And probably 10-25% of the time when you *look*. It's just too thin to easily distinguish which end is the wide/narrow one without good lighting & active effort.

Mini-USB was pretty easy to plug in, though, which probably explains why so many portable hard drives continued to use it long after micro-USB became the norm for almost everything else.

Re:It's there.

[0100010001010011]

you charge your device through the USB-C port

Where did I claim that? I have a business laptop with a Xeon and 64 GB of RAM. This is a Surface.

But USB-C should let you charge

Which is all nice and good. I have a 150W adapter. It's a different device and market than the Surface.

USB C can't happen fast enough for me

[steveha]

USB C is, finally, USB done right. The connector is small, which is good for small devices; there is only one connector (no A and B variants); since there's only one connector you don't need a huge variety of cables (just USB A to USB C plus USB C to USB C and you are covered for 99.9% of scenarios); the plug doesn't have a "top" or "bottom", it just plugs in; and it was even designed to deliver useful amounts of power (enough to charge a small laptop).

My phone and my wife's phone are USB C and I just bought a Samsung Chromebook Plus, which charges by USB C (and it has two USB C ports, making it better than the Apple netbook). I'm planning to ask my employer to give me a laptop with USB C ports. I'm just waiting for a compact camera that uses USB C for charging and data and I'll buy that too. If I can manage it I won't buy another gadget with Micro USB or Mini USB ever again.

So congratulations, Microsoft! You managed to give me yet another reason to not buy your mobile devices!

P.S. I'm waiting for someone to make a kit that includes two or three USB C cables (USB C on both ends) plus a bunch of adapters: USB C to USB A, USB C to Mini USB, USB C to Micro USB, USB C to USB B, USB C to Ethernet jack, etc. Plus a USB to serial and USB to parallel and USB to IDE and SATA. It would be one kit that would let you connect almost anything to your laptop.

Re:USB C can't happen fast enough for me

[swillden]

I like the feel of USB-C. Every cable I have tried goes in easily and with a satisfying click. So far I only have factory provided cables though, maybe third party ones are that bad. I have to admit I'm a bit afraid of ordering more cables.

Look for Benson Leung's review before buying: https://www.amazon.com/gp/prof...

He does standard compliance testing to verify that each cable, charger or hub fully and correctly implements the spec. There is a lot of crap out there, but there's also plenty of good stuff.

Re:USB C can't happen fast enough for me

[BESTouff]

P.S. I'm waiting for someone to make a kit that includes two or three USB C cables (USB C on both ends) plus a bunch of adapters: USB C to USB A, USB C to Mini USB, USB C to Micro USB, USB C to USB B, USB C to Ethernet jack, etc. Plus a USB to serial and USB to parallel and USB to IDE and SATA. It would be one kit that would let you connect almost anything to your laptop.

Your kit already exists ! And as a bonus it's only one cable.

USB-C Really isn't ready

[hawkeyeMI]

I am a big fan of USB C. I searched high and low for a laptop that charges over USB C and meets my other requirements. I found one. I use a Pixel XL. Both these devices charge over higher voltages (5-9V for the pixel, 12-20V for the laptop) using USB Power Delivery. It was supposed to be Utopia. Instead, I've had to dig through spreadsheets, comb through reviews, and still haven't been able to find everything I'm looking for in terms of USB C accessories. Yes, one day everyone will catch up. A surface pro would help it along. But I can't blame them for waiting. They're right.

Remember 1995!

[__aaclcg7560]

Microsoft is the same company that almost missed the Internet for Windows. When The Road Ahead by Bill Gates came out, it had no mentioned of the Internet. Gates and the publisher revised the book. You can't have a visionary missing one of the biggest technological developments of his time.

Re:Remember 1995!

[__aaclcg7560]

The second release of the book added more of the same.

That's an additional 20,000 words added to the second release. That's an additional 80 pages of material to cover up the fact the Bill Gates had a cracked crystal ball.

Re:Mainstream

[110010001000]

Sure. Gates and Ballmer. That isn't mainstream.

Re:they're not wrong

[Applehu Akbar]

And the problem for Microsoft is that Windows has to support third-party everything. Making the hardware as well as the software would solve Redmond's reliability problems.

Fried Laptops? No thank you.

[DatbeDank]

Either have a dedicated power cable or figure out how to prevent low powered USB C ports from being fried if you plug in the wrong cable. Until they solve that problem, it isn't ready for the mainstream. The ports should be smart enough to not take the full voltage. I've already seen a few folks fry their expensive phones by plugging in the wrong USB C cable.

Re:they're not wrong

[ArmoredDragon]

C to C cables don't seem to have any problems. If more PC vendors would just adopt C ports, then we could just abandon A/B cables and adapters outright.

Why greatly reduces use of adaptors is not using

[SuperKendall]

USB-C is not as robust as USB-A. For a device that is expected to be replaced every year like a "smart" phone, USB-C is ok. For devices expected to last longer such as a laptop, USB-A is a better choice.

That is utterly stupid and backwards. For something that will just be around in a year, USB-A would be OK because that's still well supported.

But for something you plan to use for any length of time, more and more advanced stuff will come out primarily for USB-C. I would not buy a laptop I planed to use longer than two years at this point if it did not support USB-A.

Plus using USB-A ports greatly reduces the need for adapters or adapter cables.

Actually not the case already. I was looking for a decent small external case for an HD and the bets one I found was - USB-C!! I needed to buy an adaptor to use that with the USB-A on my laptop... When you buy a USB-C device you buy a small dock converter for a number of ports and then you are done, along with converting a few key things (like USB readers) to USB-C versions. Then you use them forever after because going forward USB-A is absolutely going to take over the USB world in short order.

This whole marketing idea that thinner is better is BULLSHIT!!

That's why marketing doesn't use that notion for any ad I've ever seen.

No, the very REAL advantage of USB-A is quite simple - you can plug it in either way. AT LAST the rest of the world gets to enjoy Lightning like simplicity in USB plugs.

Adapters...

[WestyPhoto]

Surely the adapters are only an issue until all the major players get on board with USB-C?! Odd comment from Microsoft...

Re:USB-C is a shit spec

[Anonymous Coward]

Pardon me, but you are a fool.

The reason that the voltage on the cable is 20v is to reduce the I^2R losses in the cable and connectors. To deliver a useful amount of power at 5v, you would need to have cables that were physically bulky, with matching heavy connectors. Since power = voltage * current, increasing the voltage decreases the current proportionally. Since dissipation in the cable and connectors is proportional to the square of the current, the effect is substantial. Remember, a 10% reduction in the current makes a 19% reduction in the power dissipation in the cable. Moving from 5v to 20v reduces the current by a factor of four - reducing the dissipation in the cables and connectors by a factor of 16 - which is why the fairly small cables and connectors they are using can deliver a useful amount of power.

If you are actually using correct circuits to run the USB power delivery (which is in the spec, by the way), there is a nice little switch mode power supply in the loop - which handles the conversion perfectly. Cypress, TI and a number of other player offer well designed and properly specified chips that do exactly what they are supposed to. It is not the fault of the spec that some manufacturers will violate standards and cause issues - rather, it is the fault of the manufacturers in violation. The designers are right, and you are a moron,

Problem With Marketing

[hipp5]

My big problem with USB-C is that there is a ton of confusion about what it actually is.

USB-C is always sold as "super fast", "allows high-wattage, bi-drectional charging", "high data volume for video and the like", etc. etc. But USB-C is just a connector format. So I bought a motherboard with a USB-C port thinking I was getting all these great benefits, only to realize that the port I got was USB 3.0/USB 3.1 Gen 1 (what bozo decided that the confusing renaming of 3.0 to 3.1 Gen 1 was a good idea???), no better than the other 3.0 ports I had always had.

And this confusion happened to me, someone who is very technically-inclined. Even a ton of the tech sites I read when trying to sort this issue out conflate USB-C (the connector) with USB 3.1 Gen 2 (the spec). How is the general public supposed to figure this out?

...Apple?

[Revarg]

I swear, it is like Apple designed a windows laptop. "we made it ultra simple to not confuse our dumb-dumb consumers, but for an extra $200 you can have this accessory that gives it what it should have had in the first place"