Microsoft Thinks USB-C Isn't Ready For the Mainstream (digitaltrends.com)

When Microsoft unveiled the Surface Laptop last week, it left many customers and members of the press scratching their heads over its lack of a USB Type-C port. According to general manager of Surface Engineering, Pete Kyriacou, Microsoft seems to think that the technology isn't ready for the mainstream. Digital Trends reports: Microsoft does not want customers to deal with the various Type-C cables, underwhelming chargers, all the adapters, and the third-party Type-C docks. That is why the Surface Laptop features only one USB 3.1 Gen1 Type-A port, one headphone jack, one Mini DisplayPort connector, and the Surface Connect port. Simplicity. That latter connection is how customers can "safely" expand their Surface device experience. Microsoft's $200 Microsoft Surface Dock adds two Mini DisplayPort connectors, one gigabit Ethernet port, four USB 3.1 Gen1 Type-A ports, and one audio out port. The dock connects to a compatible Surface device via Microsoft's proprietary Surface Connect port. Right now, it works with the Surface Pro 3, Surface Pro 4, and Surface Book but the Surface Laptop will undoubtedly be added soon. While limiting a Surface device's connectivity seems like forcing customers into purchasing the dock, Microsoft sees this setup as brand stability. Customers won't get ticked at Microsoft because they are confused about the different types of cables, chargers, and so on. Microsoft is controlling the end-to-end experience and there is nothing wrong with that.

Comments

because

[Anonymous Coward]

Microsoft has good judgement

Re:because

[Beau1080p]

This time, yes. I like USB C and all. Features looked really cool, so I got a laptop that I can charge over USB C. But I ran into the same "early adopter" issues as I did when I got a USB 3.0 mobo around 2010. Bugs weren't all worked out and I ended up with errors causing the motherboard to reject the device or "unplug" it and it would randomly power back up hours later or if I swapped ports. Having the same problem now with USB C power supply. Give it another six months and it will be straightened out.

So even by random chance, Microsoft is going to get one right every now and then. Don't be a hater, AC.

--Beau

Re:because

[ArmoredDragon]

Honestly I've never had any problems with either USB 3 or Type-C, even when they were brand new.

IMO if they wanted to do something awesome, put one Thunderbolt 3 port and one USB 3.0 port on it, and nothing else. THAT would be simplicity. Then they could make their little dock thing just connect to the Thunderbolt port and work with just any Thunderbolt 3 device. Instead what we end up with is yet another proprietary power adapter, and both the power adapter and the dock become useless once you no longer have the computer.

Another bonus of using Thunderbolt 3 is that you could use an external GPU enclosure (i.e. Razer Core) and add any desktop GPU of your choice to it. Word is they work pretty damn well, though you sacrifice about 15% of the GPU's performance vs a regular desktop setup. (That, and Mac users will struggle to get them to work, but IIRC Apple did that deliberately.)

And for anybody who doesn't know, Thunderbolt 3 is 100% compatible with any USB-C device; uses the same form factor and the pinout is compatible.

Re:because

[Anonymous Coward]

Of course MS knows better than us that its new proprietary connector is much more ready for mainstream than the standard USB-C.

Re:because

[Roger W Moore]

This time, yes.

I disagree. USB-C is clearly going to replace USB-A over time. It works well and provides high speed and good power connectivity. However not many devices support it yet so if you want a machine that you can use today and still use in a few years time the best bet is a machine which supports both USB-A and C. Instead we have Apple producing machines which will be great in a few years time but bad now and MS providing ones which are great now but will be a pain in a few years time....which is why I bought a Dell with both USB-A and C so I can use it now and in a few years time.

Re:because

[thsths]

I can't see anything wrong with USB-C. My laptop has two of them, so I can charge from the left or the right.

I know there are different voltage levels, so I would not try to charge my laptop with a power supply not designed for it. I assume it just would not work (given that this laptop needs 15V, and most others need less).

But I do agree that using one connector for everything could be confusing if you are not used to the concept.

Re:because

[jellomizer]

Especially for external devices, if it fits it should work. Right now with USB-c there are too many different types of wires that can degrade or make devices unusable.

Re:because

[jabuzz]

The Surface connector is not new, and I believe predates USB-C.

Re:because

[TheRaven64]

The problem with USB-C is that there are multiple power levels and some of the cheap cables don't correctly identify their maximum current, so end up catching fire when plugged into something that can provide the higher power levels. Unfortunately, these are typically sold on sites alongside the ones that will work fine.

Re:because

[dr.Flake]

Another bonus of using Thunderbolt 3 is that you could use an external GPU enclosure (i.e. Razer Core) and add any desktop GPU of your choice to it. Word is they work pretty damn well, though you sacrifice about 15% of the GPU's performance vs a regular desktop setup. (That, and Mac users will struggle to get them to work, but IIRC Apple did that deliberately.)

Mind the number of PCI lanes to the Thunderbolt 3!! Manufacturers tend to use just 2, not enough for decent external graphics.

Re:because

[AmiMoJo]

Thunderbolt is a huge security hole. I'd rather not have the ability to plug things into my PCIe bus externally, thanks. At least with USB you have some hope of securing it.

Re:because

[jeremyp]

Thunderbolt 3 and USB 3 can both use the same physical USB-C port. That's what Apple laptops do.

So rather than one of each, just port two combined ports on - or more.

Re:because

[Sir Holo]

The problem with USB-C is that there are multiple power levels and some of the cheap cables don't correctly identify their maximum current, so end up catching fire when plugged into something that can provide the higher power levels. Unfortunately, these are typically sold on sites alongside the ones that will work fine.

Don't buy cheap no-name cables.

Similarly, don't buy a $3 USB car-charger converter to plug into your $800 smartphone! The manufacturers have "authorized" cables and converters for this very reason: They don't want you to accidentally fry your expensive toy with a cheap adapter.

Re:because

[TheRaven64]

It would be nice if that worked. There's someone at Google who has been testing a load of cables. There isn't a correlation between price and quality.

Re:because

[dadragon]

I've seen USB-A -> USB-C that aren't even grounded properly. The shroud on both ends are supposed to be grounded to each other, and these were floating.

Not helpful when it leaves your very expensive keyboard to absorb ESD alone.

Re: because

[Anonymous Coward]

"for the god of proprietary connectors, you have to go to Apple."

No, that title would historically belong to Sony.

Re:because

[BenBoy]

Sorry, not true. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/...

Re:because

[gnasher719]

If your device isn't USB-C, you either buy a tiny adapter for about 2-3 pound (if you have no more devices than ports), or you pick one of many available hubs. They come in all kinds of variations, supplying any combination of USB-A, SD cards, HDMI, Gigabit ethernet and so on. I have personally used USB hubs on all my MacBooks (as a developer with lots of devices), so I would have the choice of either buying a new hub, or buying a 2-3 pound adapter for the hub.

Re:because

[gnasher719]

It would be nice if that worked. There's someone at Google who has been testing a load of cables. There isn't a correlation between price and quality.

Apple tried buying "genuine" Apple cables and chargers on eBay and didn't find even _one_ "genuine" Apple product that was made by Apple.

Re:because

[gnasher719]

I forgot, the situation is better in China, where thieves take the genuine Apple cables from brand new iPhones and replace them with fakes, and then sell the Apple cables separately. In that case, yes, you might get a genuine product. Which was stolen from a customer who bought a brand new product.

Re:because

[TheFakeTimCook]

This time, yes. I like USB C and all. Features looked really cool, so I got a laptop that I can charge over USB C. But I ran into the same "early adopter" issues as I did when I got a USB 3.0 mobo around 2010. Bugs weren't all worked out and I ended up with errors causing the motherboard to reject the device or "unplug" it and it would randomly power back up hours later or if I swapped ports. Having the same problem now with USB C power supply. Give it another six months and it will be straightened out.

So even by random chance, Microsoft is going to get one right every now and then. Don't be a hater, AC.

--Beau

Need to check out Apple's 2016 MacBook Pro. It has all that USB-C stuff ALL worked-out.

In fact, I'd be somewhat surprised if that Microsoft Expansion Connector wasn't just a USB-C/Thunderbolt3 port with a proprietary connector. Sure sounds like it to me...

Re:because

[ilsaloving]

Is it really that bad compared to everything else? USB alone is already more than plenty to compromise your machine. And then there's other buses prior to that, such as PCMCIA and PCExpress. (Granted, those are limited to laptops.)

The thing is, if a malicious actor has physical access to your machine, you're fucked regardless.

Re:because

[TheFakeTimCook]

It would be nice if that worked. There's someone at Google who has been testing a load of cables. There isn't a correlation between price and quality.

Apple tried buying "genuine" Apple cables and chargers on eBay and didn't find even _one_ "genuine" Apple product that was made by Apple.

That doesn't surprise me on bit.

Re:because

[petermgreen]

I remain unconvinced.

Firstly there is lots of functionality but it is pretty much all optional. Maybe that port supports delivering lots of power to devices, maybe that port supports receiving power from a power brick, maybe that port supports host mode, maybe that port supports device mode, maybe that port supports displayport, maybe that port support HDMI, maybe that port supports thunderbolt, maybe that port supports USB 3.1 speeds, maybe that port supports analog audio. Lots and lots of room for user confusion and frustration there.

Secondly it is more expensive for implementers because for signal integrity reasons you need seperate LVDS transceivers for the two sides of the USB3 socket. In normal operation only half of them will be used. If you want to support the optional functionality like displayport or thunderbolt or power delivery that adds further costs. If an implementer only supports the aditional functionality on a subset of ports then users are going to get even more confused.

Thirdly you are allowed to have adaptors with a USB C plug and a USB A (or B) socket but not vice-versa. The implications of this for peripheral vendors should be obvious.

Fourthly a number of cable vendors have fucked up the power delivery stuff leading to cables that are dangerous to device and/or user.

I expect USB C to find a niche, it's useful as a univeral port on small but highly functional devices (smartphones, tablets, ultrabooks etc). It's useful as a "docking station" port for laptop users who only want to hook up one cable when they come to their desk but for the forseable future I expect most perhiperals to stick with regular single-function connectors.

Re:because

[ilsaloving]

You, sir, are WRONG, idiot. Please go drink a gallon of petrol and then light a joint.

You know, if you're going to troll, you could at least be more imaginative about it. Like:

Your argument, sir, is BLATANTLY ERRONEOUS AND FALLACIOUS, you proctologic haberdashery! Please forthwith imbibe a sizeable quantity of refined hydrocarbons, followed by partaking in a quality combustable cannabis product.

Re:because

[TheFakeTimCook]

For new proprietary connectors, you're confused. Microsoft isn't, nor has ever been the one to use those. The XBox 360 famously used USB while PS used a proprietary connector. No, for the god of proprietary connectors, you have to go to Apple.

You're statement is factually untrue and wreaks of irrational hatred of Microsoft. If you want to make fun of them, stick to things they've actually done wrong, they've given plenty of ammunition for that. Making things up just makes you look intellectually lazy and hurts your arguments.

While it used to be true that Apple used some proprietary connectors, the lastest MacBook Pro, for example, has none. USB-C/TB3 for all I/O and Power, 3.5mm for headphones.

Re:because

[AmiMoJo]

It's as bad as Firewire and PCCard, and much worse than USB. The simple reason is that it gives connected devices DMA access to the machine's RAM. There are commercial forensic tools that will completely 0wn a running machine over Thunderbolt, and even some open source projects that will steal passwords and other credentials with it.

Re: because

[HannethCom]

Surface Connector first debuted on the Surface Pro 3 in June 2014.
USB-C debuted in August 2014.
My main problem with the Surface line is that they stick to only 1 USB port.

Re:because

[Anonymous Coward]

Unfortunately, these are typically sold on sites alongside the ones that will work fine.

Funny. Suddenly Apple's cable certification program seems rational.

Re:because

[EndlessNameless]

I have three USB-C devices (two phones and a tablet), and it is 50/50 whether they will fast-charge with any given USB-C cable or AC adapter.

All of them will charge slowly, at least. I don't know if the spec is flawed or if there is just a lot of non-conformant equipment available.

I wish they had included USB-C, but I can appreciate that they don't want to deal with early adopter headaches in a mainstream product. The Dell XPS seems to have one though, so at least some companies are willing to take a chance.

Re:because

[imreb321]

Was it Bill Gates that said we would never need more 640k memory?

Re:because

[Sir Holo]

It would be nice if that worked. There's someone at Google who has been testing a load of cables. There isn't a correlation between price and quality.

Don't compare by price. Compare by manufacturer (brand on the label).

Re:because

[TheRaven64]

Doesn't work, unless you're buying direct from the manufacturer: a load of the dangerous knock-offs have well-known and trusted brand labels, in spite of having nothing to do with that company.

Re:because

[Shirley Marquez]

That's actually part of the problem. There are a bunch of ports that look exactly like USB-C ports but they don't all do the same thing. You see something on your computer or phone that looks like a USB-C port but it could be any number of things:

1. A bog standard USB-C port that implements Superspeed Gen 2 USB (10Gbps)
2. A USB 3.0 standard port (5Gbps)
3. A USB 2.0 standard port (480Mbps) - these are mostly on phones
4. A Thunderbolt 3 port that implements some unknown number of PCIe lanes
5. A USB-C port that implements HDMI Alternate Mode (USB-C to HDMI with no dongle)
6. A USB-C port that implements DisplayPort Alternate Mode (USB-C to DP with no dongle)
7. A USB-C port that will charge the device

What's the problem? You can't tell which set of capabilities a USB-C port has by looking at it. There are no standard device markings or color coding to tell the various kinds of ports apart. The only thing that will help is a spec sheet for the device. A computer with more than one USB-C port may not have the same capabilities on all of them, so whether a device will work depends on which port you plug it into.

Re:because

[Shirley Marquez]

The Micro USB connector has some of the same problems, because it may have add-on capabilities like USB On-The-Go and MHL. But the USB-C connector is far worse. On the plus side, the connector is more physically robust than the fragile Micro USB connector.

Re:because

[NigelTheFrog]

I know people pointed this out with Apple's new MacBook Pros. On the 13" model, only 2 of the 4 USB-C ports are also Thunderbolt 3.

Re:because

[Roger W Moore]

If your device isn't USB-C, you either buy a tiny adapter for about 2-3 pound...

If I wanted to carry around bags of dongles everywhere I go I would have stuck with a Mac. I don't mind the odd adapter for less frequent/likely usage cases but I want a laptop which has most of the common ports built in.

Re:because

[Roger W Moore]

You have some good points but all of these are things that are likely to become less important with time. Costs to implement decrease as market volume builds. Vendors get more expertise with the technology and are less likely to screw up. Cheaper implementations mean it is possible to add all the functionality to more/all ports etc.

Unless there is something which prevents the implementation costs reducing - usually this is some patent/proprietary thing like it was with Firewire - I'd be surprised if there is not a slow shift over to the new connector probably driven by the faster-charging speeds for mobile devices.

Re:because

[michael_wojcik]

Eh? USB 1.0 and 2.0 don't give the device DMA (for most protocols). The USB controller has DMA, and a vulnerability in the controller firmware could be exploited by a device - I'm pretty sure there are real-world examples. (There have been USB controller bugs that provided RCE.)

But it doesn't really matter. While external-bus-with-DMA is a whopping great security hole and a profoundly Bad Idea - and yet another example of why the people who design such things badly need remedial security education - even non-DMA interfaces like USB 1.0 and 2.0 provide a huge attack surface, because of how they're treated by the OS.

Common OSes helpfully provide things like automounting filesystems, and that's a big pile of code that's likely to have exploitable vulnerabilities. Or they treat devices that claim to be, say, keyboards (USB Rubber Ducky) or network cards (Fuller's attack) as completely trustworthy and assume that such devices are working for the benefit of the user.

The oft-cited dictum that physical control of a machine completely defeats security is naive and patently untrue - it's very difficult to defeat tamper-resistant hardware, for example. But It does provide a far more generous attack surface. And while external DMA-enabled ports are a sweet gift to an attacker, plain ol' USB is a pretty big hole too.

they're not wrong

[Anonymous Coward]

Third party type-C is a mess. I wish USB would start pulling licenses and going after trademark infringement on the bad chargers and fake cables.

Re:they're not wrong

[Applehu Akbar]

And the problem for Microsoft is that Windows has to support third-party everything. Making the hardware as well as the software would solve Redmond's reliability problems.

Re:they're not wrong

[ArmoredDragon]

C to C cables don't seem to have any problems. If more PC vendors would just adopt C ports, then we could just abandon A/B cables and adapters outright.

Re:they're not wrong

[jeremyp]

Reading the other comments, it looks like there are cheap USB-C cables that don't identify themselves correctly (USB-C cables have electronics to tell you how much current they can carry etc). These will then catch fire if you try to draw more power through them than is safe.

Re:they're not wrong

[TheFakeTimCook]

Reading the other comments, it looks like there are cheap USB-C cables that don't identify themselves correctly (USB-C cables have electronics to tell you how much current they can carry etc). These will then catch fire if you try to draw more power through them than is safe.

USB-C cables are Passive. No electronics.

Seems like Microsoft isn't ready for USB-C

[zerofoo]

I have zero issue with my nexus devices and my MacBook - both use USB-C and I have yet to find a cable or device that doesn't perform as intended on any of the devices.

The various flavors of USB are enough to drive someone to drink. USB-C is a welcome change that actually fulfills the promise of the word "Universal" in USB.

I think Microsoft is just chickening out here.

Re:Seems like Microsoft isn't ready for USB-C

[AndrewFlagg]

Not ready for Type-C? sounds Microsoft familiar. NIH syndrome.

Re:Seems like Microsoft isn't ready for USB-C

[Ark42]

I can't get my Nexus to charge 50% of the time when I plug it into a FULL external battery, because of USB-C. 50% of the time, My Nexus 5x thinks that the most logical default would be for the phone (at 15% battery left) to use it's remaining battery to charge the external battery, which is surely around 95% or more full already.
The whole bidirectional aspect of USB-C seems like a total failure to me. I have to remember to unlock my phone, pull down the menu at the, and change the charge direction. There is no way to set a default apparently, and no way to determine WHICH direction it will start with each time I plug it in.

Re:Seems like Microsoft isn't ready for USB-C

[Anonymous Coward]

Good reason: a unified jack / plug that lets you charge, do video output, Thunderbird & USB from any port, and allows for thinner devices. There's no reason they couldn't have had one such port or one on each side plus the legacy jack too.

Re:Seems like Microsoft isn't ready for USB-C

[msauve]

You: "I think Microsoft is just chickening out here."

Microsoft: "Industry standardized interfaces are too confusing for people, they should use our proprietary, device specific one."

I don't think that counts as "chickening out," it's Apple-like courage.

Re:Seems like Microsoft isn't ready for USB-C

[fluffernutter]

The connection feels a lot more solid to me. There is a nice snug fit feeling.

Re:Seems like Microsoft isn't ready for USB-C

[ShanghaiBill]

... which isn't enough to outweigh the benefits of micro USB.

What are the benefits of Micro-USB?

Re:Seems like Microsoft isn't ready for USB-C

[fluffernutter]

That sounds like something that could be fixed in firmware

Re:Seems like Microsoft isn't ready for USB-C

[Anonymous Coward]

I think Microsoft is just chickening out here.

Nothing new here, Microsoft is just being Microsoft. Remember that Windows 95/98 did not support USB because Microsoft was trying to kill the standard. Microsoft eventually gave this idea up and added native USB support in Win98 OSR2.

Re:Seems like Microsoft isn't ready for USB-C

[Anonymous Coward]

Broken plugs after a few times of usage.

Re: Seems like Microsoft isn't ready for USB-C

[Miamicanes]

Win98/SE was the first version to support USB in general, but later updates to 95 & 98 added support for USB mice.

I believe that in theory, a highly-motivated vendor with lots of resources *could* have independently released their own drivers for Win95OSR2 & non-SE Win98, but the miniport .dll files almost everyone depends upon only came with 98SE. It's hard enough to do when you HAVE them, and damn-near impossible to do without them. I remember Linux struggled with USB performance for *years* (lots of things "worked" without needing drivers, but few devices worked really *well* compared to their non-USB variants).

Re:Seems like Microsoft isn't ready for USB-C

[nyquil superstar]

For me, it's the ubiquity of it. Until I bought a PixelXL, I only had to carry a single type of cable with me. It got used for EVERYTHING. I've got a lot of random micro-USB stuff. Now I have to remember a special cable for that one device, and it doesn't work on anything else. Don't get me wrong, USB-C is cool and has great advantages, but until there's actually an ecosystem around it, it's just an annoyance for me.

Re:Seems like Microsoft isn't ready for USB-C

[ArmoredDragon]

Aside from Thunderbolt (which is pointless with USB 3.1), micro USB already does all of that. The only benefit USB-C has is that it can be connected upside down, which isn't enough to outweigh the benefits of micro USB.

MicroUSB does NOT provide video capability, unless you use one of those crappy dongles that does video compression. USB-C not only does actual full bandwidth video, but in the Thunderbolt 3 configuration it even provides a friggin PCI-e interface. They even make external GPU enclosures that allow you to run an actual desktop GPU on a laptop if you'd like, and it works pretty well.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?...

Not only that, but in terms of physical durability, USB-C will WAY outlast MicroUSB.

Re:Seems like Microsoft isn't ready for USB-C

[arglebargle_xiv]

USB C is much, much more than that just a better connector, although even then the micro USB one that it supplants is probably the mechanically worst of the USB ones. As the OP has said, USB C is finally a universal system, not just a faster 16650 with 5V power.

Re:Seems like Microsoft isn't ready for USB-C

[HatofPig]

I think Microsoft is just chickening out here.

Did you even read the summary? "Microsoft is controlling the end-to-end experience and there is nothing wrong with that." What about that don't you understand? There is NOTHING WRONG WITH THAT. Nothing.

Re:Seems like Microsoft isn't ready for USB-C

[thegarbz]

I have yet to find a cable or device

I have yet to need to find a cable or device. That's kind of the point. You have a Nexus and a MacBook. Lucky you. I have a million android devices, older hubs, traditional USB devices etc etc. and I have yet to find anything I can't plug into the Surface USB-A port which includes every device everyone has ever given me (USB stick, card, camera, etc).

On the other hand I have not a single plug, cable, device or adapter that plugs into the USB-C port on my HP machine.

USB-C is the future, and for the time being the future it will remain. By all means add a USB-C port in addition to a USB-A port, but I sure as heck won't buy a device which forces me to carry a fist full of adapters.

Re:Seems like Microsoft isn't ready for USB-C

[thegarbz]

WTF since when has Microsoft had anything NIH related to hardware.

Re: Seems like Microsoft isn't ready for USB-C

[Bartles]

Serial cables were pretty ubiquitous too. I remember the day where I only had to carry one around and it would work for everything.

Re: Seems like Microsoft isn't ready for USB-C

[Bartles]

You don't need a fist full of adaptors. If every device you have fits into a USB A port on your surface, then all you need is one adaptor, a C to A.

Re:Seems like Microsoft isn't ready for USB-C

[Anonymous Coward]

Sure you could send a 1080p@24fps video over USB...
1920*1080*3*24*8 = 11.9Gbit/s raw video data.. then you will most likely add a few percent on top of that in protocol-overhead so let's call it 12Gbit/s required for 1080p video.

Now lets see for USB speeds:
USB 2 - 480Mbit/s
USB 3.0 - 5Mbit/s -- Aka "SuperSpeed"
USB 3.1 - 10 Gbit/s

To reach the "SuperSpeed" you need at least 4 differential pairs in the cable (8 seperate physical leads in the cable) and then you need cables for power and such too. This is nothing microusb and all the older cables/connectors have..

Thunderbolt v1 - 2 10Gbit/s lanes. (20Gbit in total)
Thunderbolt v2 - 20Gbit/s (did not bother to research this.. probably per lane.)
Thunderbolt v3 - 40Gbit/s

So try to send anything above 720p on that USB 3.1 connection.

And then i had a look at your product-examples:
MHL : This one is not USB. This is just a way to bring out a custom datachannel from the phone via re-purposing an existing connector.
SlimPort : Same as the MHL..

They are both just a one-way displayport output that can be used over any 5-pin connection, and the only 5-pin output available on a phone is the USB-port.... But this is NOT USB... it's just repurposing an existing connector for it's own protocol.

Oh and there are USB to external PCI-e converters too. They've been around for a long time.

Yea, running at 10Gbit/s best-case, 5Gbit/s in many cases as long as you have the right cables with you and then for most people those would still run at 480Mbit/s or slower... If you look at the chinese crap that exist for this (what most people buy) the specs are crap and just provides the functionality of connecting a pci-e device to USB without considering performance.
Try fitting a uncompressed 1080p video over a "PCI-e -> USB 3.1 (10Gbit/s) -> Host" chain.. Would be even more overhead there too.

Re:Seems like Microsoft isn't ready for USB-C

[Actually, I do RTFA]

I mean, technically yes. Technically, it could be changed to not conform to the spec, or to conform in a different way, I don't know which. But, either of those would be cases of it "not being ready"

Re: Seems like Microsoft isn't ready for USB-C

[butzwonker]

Or you could have a USB-A port and need no adapter at all.

Re: Seems like Microsoft isn't ready for USB-C

[Hognoxious]

Bizzare, there's one staring at me right now from the top of my BOSINUBAUTTA[1]. Found it while looking for something else. It's one of those with both 9 and 25 pin connectors.

I also have a load of adapters and genderbenders somewhere, all joined together like a space ship. It's been so long since I used them they've probably seized together.

[1] box of shit I'll never use but am unable/unwilling to throw away

Re: Seems like Microsoft isn't ready for USB-C

[thegarbz]

I have one better: I don't need ANY adapter.

I anticipate that maybe in 4 years some 10% of my devices may be USB-C. I anticipate my laptop will be replaced in 4 years any way. USB-C on a laptop is a liability if it doesn't also have USB-A. Especially an ultra portable which is intended to be used without lugging around anything else.

Re:Seems like Microsoft isn't ready for USB-C

[DrXym]

If you want to talk of years, think of the tens of thousands of man years wasted by people figuring out which way their USB cable was supposed to plug in. That alone makes USB-C a major improvement, one long overdue. You could buy a USB-A adapter to use an existing charger assuming the cable is joined to the charger and not replaceable. Not ideal but still possible.

Biggest issue with USB-C is the botched roll out, certification issues and fears that the standard allows devices to use DRM to gimp / disable support for "unauthorized" peripherals.

Re:Seems like Microsoft isn't ready for USB-C

[fellip_nectar]

Maybe you should have double checked what 1920*1080*3*24*8 was before starting your post...

You were an order of magnitude out - it's actually 1.19 Gbit/s.

Re:Seems like Microsoft isn't ready for USB-C

[thegarbz]

Yes, the crappy software in one specific device is a major failing of the USB-C standard.

Re:Seems like Microsoft isn't ready for USB-C

[TheRaven64]

USB-C is not as robust as USB-A.

That's surprising, given that one of the design goals for USB-C was to be more robust than USB-A and it is designed and tested to support more insert/remove cycles than USB-A.

Re:Seems like Microsoft isn't ready for USB-C

[AmiMoJo]

You either have the world's worst external battery or are plugging it in to the wrong port. The way USB power supply works, the device has to detect that it is in host mode and negotiate with the device receiving charge before it will supply more than 100mA.

So in order for your problem to manifest, your external battery must be acting as a USB device rather than as dumb charger or host. That suggests you either plugged in to the charge port instead of the output port, or the battery has a really really really terrible USB controller in it.

USB-C is no more bidirectional than any other variant of USB. It's all negotiated over the USB protocol, just the same as older USB plugs and sockets.

Re:Seems like Microsoft isn't ready for USB-C

[AmiMoJo]

You are confusing USB with Apple's Lightning. Micro USB ports can support full uncompressed 1080p video. They use the MHL standard (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mobile_High-Definition_Link) which either needs support in the receiver (i.e. the monitor/TV) or a dongle to convert to normal HDMI, but the video is completely uncompressed in either case.

Apple's Lightning to HDMI cables contain an ARM system-on-chip that uses compressed VNC to mirror the phone's screen and generate an HDMI signal from that. There are visible compression artefacts.

Re:Seems like Microsoft isn't ready for USB-C

[h4rr4r]

So what you are saying is it works 100% of the time, if you bother to use it correctly. Neat.

Just because you are inattentive does not mean I want to give up the ability to steal power from my tablet to continue my work call while traveling.

Re:Seems like Microsoft isn't ready for USB-C

[jeremyp]

There are multiple different versions of "micro-USB". My laptop bag has currently got cables with four different connectors (five including the USB-C one) that all look roughly the same as a micro-USB but aren't.

There's mini-A, mini-B, micro-A, micro-B and something called UC-E6, plus whatever it is my camera uses. They all look roughly the same from a distance and in the case of some them, it's difficult to tell which way round they go in the socket until you try to ram them home. "Ramming home", coincidentally, is what I'd like to do with these plugs to anybody who whines that USB-C is making the situation worse.

Oh yes, and USB-3.1 does 10Gb/s whereas Thunderbolt 3 does 40Gb/s which is something you could have looked up pretty easily before falsely claiming it is pointless.

Re:Seems like Microsoft isn't ready for USB-C

[Ark42]

If works 100% of the time means it randomly does something different 50% of the time from what it does the other 50% of the time, then yes, it's working. If that's the case, Microsoft is right to wait on USB-C, because this is just stupid. Maybe USB Cv2 or something will fix this glaring issue.

Re:Seems like Microsoft isn't ready for USB-C

[Ark42]

There is not separate in/out ports on this external battery like other older batteries I've owned. It uses the one USB-C port for charging and discharging. The exact same way my Nexus 5x can use it's one USB-C port to charge or discharge it's own battery.

Re:Seems like Microsoft isn't ready for USB-C

[AmiMoJo]

Right, so it's a really bad USB controller in the battery.

Re:Seems like Microsoft isn't ready for USB-C

[Sir Holo]

Aside from Thunderbolt (which is pointless with USB 3.1).

Yep. They're roughly the same speed.

They even make external GPU enclosures that allow you to run an actual desktop GPU on a laptop if you'd like, and it works pretty well.

Whoa! So can one of these let my Mac run cutting-edge titles on my MacBook Pro with all the video goodies turned on? (I dual-boot to Win 8.1 using a Boot Camp partition on mine.) GC support the only thing my MacBook Pro is missing as far as top-end gaming capability.

Re:Seems like Microsoft isn't ready for USB-C

[jeremyp]

Plus using USB-A ports greatly reduces the need for adapters or adapter cables.

Err, no.

The problem is that the other end of the USB-A cable might need to connect into a device that could have one of seven or eight different sockets.

And that's before you start talking about USB-3 standard A plugs that look the same as USB 2 plugs but aren't.

Re:Seems like Microsoft isn't ready for USB-C

[Sir Holo]

Not ready for Type-C? sounds Microsoft familiar. NIH syndrome.

Is NIH == Not In-house?

If so, I agree vigorously. They've pushed PC makers to do the same, just to make Apple computers "too different" from PCs forever. As for MS doing it themselves: w/software standards and languages, it's always been the same – Embrace, Extend, Extinguish. You'd expect their venture into hardware to be no different.

Re: Seems like Microsoft isn't ready for USB-C

[DarkOx]

Nope totally wrong!

Windows 95 OSR2 - got broad USB support! That was OEM only however. Win98 released very shortly after had pretty much full support for USB devices that existed at the time, storage, hid, and audio, video, etc.

Win98SE was more or less the same USB stack, shipping with more device drivers out of box.

Re:Seems like Microsoft isn't ready for USB-C

[fnj]

Thunderbolt (which is pointless with USB 3.1

Bullshit. Thunderbolt 3 is 40 Gbps. USB 3.1 is 10 Gbps.

Re:Seems like Microsoft isn't ready for USB-C

[fnj]

micro USB ... is probably the mechanically worst of the USB [connectors]

Objectively not so. As Wikipedia points out, "The standard and mini connectors have a design lifetime of 1,500 insertion-removal cycles, the improved Mini-B connectors increased this to 5,000. The micro connectors were designed with frequent charging of portable devices in mind, so have a design life of 10,000 cycles and also place the flexible contacts, which wear out sooner, on the easily replaced cable, while the more durable rigid contacts are located in the receptacles. Likewise, the springy component of the retention mechanism, parts that provide required gripping force, were also moved into plugs on the cable side."

Re:Seems like Microsoft isn't ready for USB-C

[TheFakeTimCook]

I have zero issue with my nexus devices and my MacBook - both use USB-C and I have yet to find a cable or device that doesn't perform as intended on any of the devices.

The various flavors of USB are enough to drive someone to drink. USB-C is a welcome change that actually fulfills the promise of the word "Universal" in USB.

I think Microsoft is just chickening out here.

No. THey are deliberately spreading FUD about USB-C because of the MacBook Pro.

Seriously.

Re:Seems like Microsoft isn't ready for USB-C

[TheFakeTimCook]

Good reason: a unified jack / plug that lets you charge, do video output, Thunderbird & USB from any port, and allows for thinner devices

Aside from Thunderbolt (which is pointless with USB 3.1), micro USB already does all of that. The only benefit USB-C has is that it can be connected upside down, which isn't enough to outweigh the benefits of micro USB.

Um, Thunderbolt 3 is NOT pointless with USB 3.1.

USB 3.1 10 Gbps max.
TB 3 20 Gbps, and is inherently multifunctional.

Micro USB is an abomination and should go away forthwith.

You're an idiot.

Re: Seems like Microsoft isn't ready for USB-C

[Miamicanes]

I'm pretty sure that Win95OSR2 couldn't do USB for anything besides mice (maybe keyboards, too). I distinctly remember using Win95osr2 for almost everything up until Win2k came out because 98's performance sucked miserably on my laptop (I think it had a 33mhz Pentium & 4 megs of ram), but 95osr2 ran acceptably. There was some USB peripheral (my Handspring Visor, I think... it might have been a webcam or flash drive) that forced me to use 98. I ended up installing Win98, then used a program called "98Lite" to replace Win98's (Active Desktop based) Explorer with Win95's simpler (but much, much faster) Explorer, which allowed me to have both USB *and* tolerable performance.

My copy of Win95osr2 was an OEM system-builder copy.

Re:Seems like Microsoft isn't ready for USB-C

[TheFakeTimCook]

Is NIH == Not In-house?

Close.

It's "Not Invented Here".

Re:Seems like Microsoft isn't ready for USB-C

[TheFakeTimCook]

You: "I think Microsoft is just chickening out here."

Microsoft: "Industry standardized interfaces are too confusing for people, they should use our proprietary, device specific one."

I don't think that counts as "chickening out," it's Apple-like courage.

Wrong.

Apple took the High Road when it comes to USB-C/TB3. They have more I/O bandwidth than any other laptop on the planet.

And yes, it did take Courage to release a Laptop with all USB-C/TB3 connectors.

Just like it took Courage to release the original iMac with only USB-A Connectors, when the rest of the world still wanted you to figure out whether it was pin 2 or pin 3, and pins 4 and 5, or 6, 8 and 20. Or use a printer with a 3 inch long, 34-pin "Centronics" connector, to carry an 8 bit wide data-path.

Two years later, you'd be hard-pressed to find a printer with anything BUT a USB connector.

Now it's USB-C's turn. Just like with the internet, Microsoft is dead-wrong on this one.

Re:Seems like Microsoft isn't ready for USB-C

[TheFakeTimCook]

You have that completely ass backwards. For Apple, courage means being unafraid of changing to a new standard before the rest of the world. Clearly not Microsoft's definition.

Exactly!

Re:Seems like Microsoft isn't ready for USB-C

[TheFakeTimCook]

I think Microsoft is just chickening out here.

Nothing new here, Microsoft is just being Microsoft. Remember that Windows 95/98 did not support USB because Microsoft was trying to kill the standard. Microsoft eventually gave this idea up and added native USB support in Win98 OSR2.

Which is hilarious; because MS was on the USB "Committee", while Apple was not.

MS doesn't think USB-C "isn't ready", they are just trying to do two things:

1. Spread FUD about USB-C, and in so doing, about the new MBPs.

2. Engage in a little good-old-fashioned Vendor Lock-In with their proprietary connector (which sounds suspiciously like it hooks to a TB3 chip on the inside...

Re:Seems like Microsoft isn't ready for USB-C

[msauve]

See that bit that's underlined? It's what's called a hyperlink. Click on it in your browser, and you'll find your entire comment is a non-sequitur.

Re:Seems like Microsoft isn't ready for USB-C

[farble1670]

The various flavors of USB are enough to drive someone to drink. USB-C is a welcome change that actually fulfills the promise of the word "Universal" in USB.

By "flavor" do you mean the USB connector, or the protocol carried over the cable? USB-C does nothing to sort out the protocol. E.g., so you can plug in a USB-C cable. That doesn't guarantee support of USB 3[.1]. It doesn't guarantee any particular charging power level. It might support video. Or not.

Re:Seems like Microsoft isn't ready for USB-C

[farble1670]

1. Spread FUD about USB-C, and in so doing, about the new MBPs.

Apple goes all-USB-c ---> nerds rage.
Microsoft sticks with USB-A ---> nerds rage.

Re: Seems like Microsoft isn't ready for USB-C

[farble1670]

You don't need a fist full of adaptors. If every device you have fits into a USB A port on your surface, then all you need is one adaptor, a C to A.

Unless in the unlikely scenario you need to connect >1 USB device at a time. Only a power user scenario I know, but thought I'd mention it anyway.

Re:Seems like Microsoft isn't ready for USB-C

[TheFakeTimCook]

See that bit that's underlined? It's what's called a hyperlink. Click on it in your browser, and you'll find your entire comment is a non-sequitur.

No.

It is your linked article that is the non-sequitur.

Re:Seems like Microsoft isn't ready for USB-C

[TheFakeTimCook]

1. Spread FUD about USB-C, and in so doing, about the new MBPs.

Apple goes all-USB-c ---> nerds rage.
Microsoft sticks with USB-A ---> nerds rage.

Now THAT's funny!

(And sadly, also true...)

Re: Seems like Microsoft isn't ready for USB-C

[Blaskowicz]

But Compaq and Gateway didn't decide in 1994 to change all their serials ports to RJ45 while everyone else kept using of DB9, pissing off people who couldn't plug their shit in anymore.

Re:Seems like Microsoft isn't ready for USB-C

[Ark42]

Might be true, but I still look at it as a failure of USB-C that this situation is even possible.

Both companies are insane

[DontBeAMoran]

Apple is dropping everything and only offers USB-C while Microsoft includes almost everything except USB-C.

It's like both companies don't want to have transition periods between the present and the future.

At least Microsoft isn't braindead and is keeping the traditional headphone jack. If it ain't broke, don't fix it.

Re:Both companies are insane

[Anonymous Coward]

Apple is not dropping everything. They are still retaining their proprietary iPhone connector which allows them to bilk customers for custom chargers.

Re:Both companies are insane

[Karlt1]

You do realize that you can get third party chargers for $5 don't you?

https://www.fivebelow.com/3ft-...

Re:Both companies are insane

[EvilSS]

And people say they don't have choices!

Re:Both companies are insane

[thegarbz]

Sure if you externalize the costs of burning your house down.

Re:Both companies are insane

[Anonymous Coward]

You have cheap cables and chargers certified by Apple you fucking imbecile.

Re:Both companies are insane

[thegarbz]

It's not the cord that makes the difference it is the actual plug.

You do realize that you can get third party chargers for $5 don't you?

Decide what it is you want to talk about before we continue the conversation.

Re:Both companies are insane

[MullerMn]

In the context of this discussion Apple aren't getting rid of the headphone jack - it's the only connector the new MBP does have aside from USBC.

Re:Both companies are insane

[Karlt1]

The *plug* is not proprietary so it's irrelevant as far as cost. You can just as easily buy the same cheap dangerous plug for an Android device as an iPhone. And you can use the same plug for either one. The cord is proprietary and you can buy a lightning cord with the same price/quality tradeoff as a standard USB cord.

Re:Both companies are insane

[Sir Holo]

At least Microsoft isn't braindead and is keeping the traditional headphone jack. If it ain't broke, don't fix it.

The latest Macs have a traditional headphone jack.

Re:Both companies are insane

[jeremyp]

You do realise that the other end of the lightning cable is either a USB-A or USB-C connector? Apple chargers have standard USB ports on them - even the lap top chargers.

Re:Both companies are insane

[gnasher719]

You do realize that you can get third party chargers for $5 don't you?

A cable plugs into a few volts on both sides. A charger plugs into 110-240 Volt on on side. A rubbish cable won't do much damage beyond not working, a rubbish charger can easily kill you.

Never, ever use a cheap third party charger if you value your life.

Re:Both companies are insane

[Karlt1]

I misspoke of course you're right. The $5 was referring to the cord. That still makes the complaint about Apple's *overpriced* cord irrelevant. The charger is not proprietary it's a standard USB charger and you can get a lightning cord for the same price as an Android cord.

Re:Both companies are insane

[thegarbz]

Well I'm glad you made your choice. You shouldn't have said "charger" then.

Re:Both companies are insane

[Blaskowicz]

The tradition on laptops was to have two jacks, one for input and one for output.

Dear Slashdot

[Anonymous Coward]

No one cares what Microsoft "wants" or "thinks" anymore

It's there.

[0100010001010011]

My new laptop at work (ZBook 15 G3) has USB-C. It's everything USB should have been since the beginning.

Reversible, Just Works(Tm). It'll drive 2 4k external TVs.

Laptop itself has Ethernet, VGA, 3xUSB3.0 and 2xUSB-C ports. Holds 64GB of RAM, 2xM.2 NVMe drives and 1x 2.5" drive.

The dock could still use some work. You shouldn't have to issue a white paper on how to hook up monitors (Which is still wrong, the HDMI port drives 4k just fine.).

If I *need* to do some GPU work I can plug in an external GPU. Or gigabit ethernet or any other PCIe device.

Microsoft screwed up on this one. They're releasing old hardware. I bet they could have easily charged a surface on over USB Power Delivery. It's taken us a while but USB-C is pretty damn good as far as a physical connection. And Thunderbolt 3 is equally as good of a protocol.

For most people if the 'desktop is dead' it's because USB-C/TB killed it. I just want to plug my laptop into cluster of CPUs when I'm at my desk.

Re:It's there.

[DRJlaw]

If I *need* to do some GPU work I can plug in an external GPU. Or gigabit ethernet or any other PCIe device.

Which means that your ZBook 15 G3 has a Thunderbolt-enabled USB-C port. But you've simply called it USB-C, which could also be merely USB 3 Gen2, USB 3 Gen1, or even technically USB 2. Which provides a perfect case study for Microsoft's point.

I bet they could have easily charged a surface on over USB Power Delivery.

Of course, you charge your device through the USB-C port, right? Nope! Your laptop still has a separate charging port. But USB-C should let you charge a device at up to 100W. Don't you have USB-C? You said it could easily be done. Why not?

Which is Microsoft's point...

Re:It's there.

[Uberbah]

I honestly don't understand why the reversibility is such a big deal. (It reminds me of Apple fanboys raving about the superiority of rounded corners.)

Maybe because you're a twat. No checking to see if you have the plug facing the right way, you simply plug it in and you're done.

Re: It's there.

[Miamicanes]

Micro USB is almost *impossible* to plug into "by feel" -- at best, you'll be wrong half the time, *guaranteed*, if you try. And probably 10-25% of the time when you *look*. It's just too thin to easily distinguish which end is the wide/narrow one without good lighting & active effort.

Mini-USB was pretty easy to plug in, though, which probably explains why so many portable hard drives continued to use it long after micro-USB became the norm for almost everything else.

Re:It's there.

[0100010001010011]

you charge your device through the USB-C port

Where did I claim that? I have a business laptop with a Xeon and 64 GB of RAM. This is a Surface.

But USB-C should let you charge

Which is all nice and good. I have a 150W adapter. It's a different device and market than the Surface.

Re:It's there.

[thegarbz]

No thanks. I like charging a laptop via a magnetic connector. Apple's biggest mistake was moving away from magsafe.

Also while USB-C is everything USB always should have been, it's also everything that USB is not yet. Why the hell would I buy a device where I need to adapt everything to it? In 3-5 years I may consider it. Right now USB-C is a liability.

If you only provide one port that is. Frankly they could just as easily include a USB C port next to USB A.

But charging, no they made the right decision sticking to the surface connector for that.

Re: It's there.

[jaklode]

It was supposed to be very easy to do, the standard requires the USB logo to be up, so you could feel that and plug it in. In practice, some cables or ports are the wrong way around, though....

Re:It's there.

[jaklode]

The point is: If your chargeable device has an USB C port, it should be chargeable via that port, no matter what. Everything else is just stupid and confusing.

Re:It's there.

[Big Hairy Ian]

I honestly don't understand why the reversibility is such a big deal. (It reminds me of Apple fanboys raving about the superiority of rounded corners.)

When the guy who invented USB finally dies they will gently lower him into the grave then winch him out, flip him over and lower him in again.

Re:It's there.

[DRJlaw]

What point? That M$ can't design a USB-C port with Thunderbolt...

That USB-C doesn't require it. That most manufacturer's don't include it. That you have to dig into the specifications to figure out what any particular USB-C port does.

and can't figure out how to transfer 100W power over USB-C?

That USB-C doesn't require it. That most manufacturer's don't include it. That you have to dig into the specifications to figure out what any particular USB-C port does.

Just because you can't use USB-C to charge a workstation which probably needs more than 150W at peak you are overlooking all the other benefit that USB-C provides?

I also can't use HP's USB-C to run a device that requires 100W such as a monitor from the HP machine, which is a USB-C benefit that neither the Microsoft nor the HP machine provide. Why not? Why do I have to research whether either machine provides USB-C power on demand? Well, for Microsoft's machine I don't, because it doesn't have a USB-C port. The USB port is a USB port and only a USB port. No confusion.

You continue to prove Microsoft's point while acting as if they've caused the problem. Add every manufacturer, excepting Apple's newest machines, to that list.

Re:It's there.

[DRJlaw]

Where did I claim that? I have a business laptop with a Xeon and 64 GB of RAM. This is a Surface.

"Microsoft screwed up on this one. They're releasing old hardware. I bet they could have easily charged a surface on over USB Power Delivery [usb.org]."

You cited USB Power Delivery. But your laptop can't charge using USB Power Delivery. Your laptop can't power other devices using USB Power Delivery. What excuse it is that it's a "business laptop" with Xeon and an arbitrary amount of RAM? You extoll the virtues of this USB-C feature yet you don't even have a laptop that implements it. Which is, again, Microsoft's point. "USB-C" means any one of a dozen-plus different combinations of features. That's unacceptable.

Re:It's there.

[DRJlaw]

My new laptop at work (ZBook 15 G3) has USB-C. It's everything USB should have been since the beginning.

The very fact that HP has to publish this chart for your laptop and other HP devices shows that it is not "everything USB should have been since the beginning." It's a confusing mishmash of functions potentially provided through the same mechanical interface, with no guarantee that anything is supported except for USB 2.0 signalling.

Re:It's there.

[Blaskowicz]

Um, when there are small lightning bolts printed next to the USB-C ports (Zeus' divine weapon) does that mean TB support or power input support? lol.

I can know it or find a way to know it (okay, I know it's TB and won't unknow it for a while). It strikes me (eh!) as a fairly silly choice of symbol since I suppose most people will think it means "electricity".

Re:It's there.

[Blaskowicz]

Indeed ; a hermaphrodite connector would have been a lot more impressive!

Re:It's there.

[Blaskowicz]

If you have to provide power input support on both a proprietary connector (or non-proprietary round DC plug) and USB-C, that complicates your electrical floor plan or power circuitry, on a device where space and cost are the biggest concerns.

If you only have one USB-C and no other power input port, then you can't even charge and plug one peripheral in at the same time (mouse, USB drive, etc.)
although your power brick might contain a USB hub in which case you might plug your mouse on the power brick that might sit on the floor. Duh!

If you have two USB-C ports, you have to make them both power input ports, driving up cost and complexity, or you might support power input on one of them and not the other, which the user will have trouble understanding and the user will be pissed at plugging things on the wrong port.

I think what I describe is about what's only really wrong with USB-C. You see USB-C only on phones (which only have one USB port that always accept charging) and high end laptops $1000 and up (or at the back of high end motherboards where a tiny connector doesn't bring much beside compatibility proofing with USB-C only devices)

Microsoft for the win

[turkeydance]

have to give the devil his due

Surface DisConnect

[Anonymous Coward]

I'm sure most users prefer the proprietary "Surface Connect" port over USB-C.

USB C can't happen fast enough for me

[steveha]

USB C is, finally, USB done right. The connector is small, which is good for small devices; there is only one connector (no A and B variants); since there's only one connector you don't need a huge variety of cables (just USB A to USB C plus USB C to USB C and you are covered for 99.9% of scenarios); the plug doesn't have a "top" or "bottom", it just plugs in; and it was even designed to deliver useful amounts of power (enough to charge a small laptop).

My phone and my wife's phone are USB C and I just bought a Samsung Chromebook Plus, which charges by USB C (and it has two USB C ports, making it better than the Apple netbook). I'm planning to ask my employer to give me a laptop with USB C ports. I'm just waiting for a compact camera that uses USB C for charging and data and I'll buy that too. If I can manage it I won't buy another gadget with Micro USB or Mini USB ever again.

So congratulations, Microsoft! You managed to give me yet another reason to not buy your mobile devices!

P.S. I'm waiting for someone to make a kit that includes two or three USB C cables (USB C on both ends) plus a bunch of adapters: USB C to USB A, USB C to Mini USB, USB C to Micro USB, USB C to USB B, USB C to Ethernet jack, etc. Plus a USB to serial and USB to parallel and USB to IDE and SATA. It would be one kit that would let you connect almost anything to your laptop.

Re:USB C can't happen fast enough for me

[fluffernutter]

I like the feel of USB-C. Every cable I have tried goes in easily and with a satisfying click. So far I only have factory provided cables though, maybe third party ones are that bad. I have to admit I'm a bit afraid of ordering more cables.

Re:USB C can't happen fast enough for me

[swillden]

I like the feel of USB-C. Every cable I have tried goes in easily and with a satisfying click. So far I only have factory provided cables though, maybe third party ones are that bad. I have to admit I'm a bit afraid of ordering more cables.

Look for Benson Leung's review before buying: https://www.amazon.com/gp/prof...

He does standard compliance testing to verify that each cable, charger or hub fully and correctly implements the spec. There is a lot of crap out there, but there's also plenty of good stuff.

Re:USB C can't happen fast enough for me

[Anonymous Coward]

Maybe I've just been unlucky, but so far almost all the USB C cables I've used have been flaky crap.

I've had good results with products made by Anker. All my USB C cables are Anker, my chargers are all Anker... and everything just works, all the time.

Hey Anker! Pay me something to shill for you! I'm doing it anyway, you might as well pay me. Oh well.

Re: USB C can't happen fast enough for me

[Miamicanes]

Yep. I've had a Nexus 6p for a year, and *still* own exactly one cable that works reliably. I have two others I bought on Amazon that are flaky for data, and almost useless for charging (it won't fast-charge with them). The USB organization has really dropped the ball when it comes to certification & enforcement. Finding good USB-C cables is still mostly a blind shot in the dark on Amazon... and it'll be a cold day in *hell* before I pay $30+ for a cable at Best Buy.

Re:USB C can't happen fast enough for me

[thegarbz]

You're ahead of the curve. The vast majority of people and by far the vast majority of devices out there are NOT USB-C. It makes no sense to get a USB-C only laptop yet. Mind you it doesn't make much sense to release a USB-A only laptop but it makes more sense right now than a USB-C only device.

Unless you have the opinion of fuck you customer you can just dongle the dongle dongle and that way everything will work.

Re:USB C can't happen fast enough for me

[BESTouff]

P.S. I'm waiting for someone to make a kit that includes two or three USB C cables (USB C on both ends) plus a bunch of adapters: USB C to USB A, USB C to Mini USB, USB C to Micro USB, USB C to USB B, USB C to Ethernet jack, etc. Plus a USB to serial and USB to parallel and USB to IDE and SATA. It would be one kit that would let you connect almost anything to your laptop.

Your kit already exists ! And as a bonus it's only one cable.

Re:USB C can't happen fast enough for me

[jaklode]

Well, you're an anonymous coward, hard to pay anonymous cowards...

Re:USB C can't happen fast enough for me

[Sir Holo]

P.S. I'm waiting for someone to make a kit that includes two or three USB C cables (USB C on both ends) plus a bunch of adapters: USB C to USB A, USB C to Mini USB, USB C to Micro USB, USB C to USB B, USB C to Ethernet jack, etc. Plus a USB to serial and USB to parallel and USB to IDE and SATA. It would be one kit that would let you connect almost anything to your laptop.

This will come. All but the USB C to parallel. USB is serial, so a $200-300 converter box is required for that. Nature of the beast.

Re:USB C can't happen fast enough for me

[steveha]

USB is serial, so a $200-300 converter box is required

I don't know where you got that $200-$300 price estimate, but you are way high. Here's one for $10:

Sabrent USB to parallel adapter, $9.99 quantity 1

I almost added "...and a USB to SCSI adapter" but SCSI isn't common at all anymore, and the few such adapters I have found really did cost hundreds.

USB-C Really isn't ready

[hawkeyeMI]

I am a big fan of USB C. I searched high and low for a laptop that charges over USB C and meets my other requirements. I found one. I use a Pixel XL. Both these devices charge over higher voltages (5-9V for the pixel, 12-20V for the laptop) using USB Power Delivery. It was supposed to be Utopia. Instead, I've had to dig through spreadsheets, comb through reviews, and still haven't been able to find everything I'm looking for in terms of USB C accessories. Yes, one day everyone will catch up. A surface pro would help it along. But I can't blame them for waiting. They're right.

Re:USB-C Really isn't ready

[ChunderDownunder]

One port to rule them all seems like a great initiative to throw away all those proprietary power bricks for laptops, monitors, scanners, TVs, NUCs that eschew bulky internal power supplies. My home office alone has 5 of them. (That's not to mention USB A cables to four separate output types in B, micro, mini, USB 3 micro B)

A question though, do those commonly found USB-A ports at coffee shops, university desks, at airports and on long distance trains, coaches and aeroplanes draw enough current to charge a laptop with a USB-A to C cable?

Re:USB-C Really isn't ready

[BESTouff]

A question though, do those commonly found USB-A ports at coffee shops, university desks, at airports and on long distance trains, coaches and aeroplanes draw enough current to charge a laptop with a USB-A to C cable?

Nope. USB-C is a complex beast, and if you want high-power charging you need devices on both ends of the cable to support the USB Power Delivery protocol, and of course be able to deliver or receive high power.

Re:USB-C Really isn't ready

[hawkeyeMI]

Most lower-power devices like phones will charge with 5V, just slower, but all the USB C laptops I've seen need at least 12V to charge at all.

Mainstream

[110010001000]

The Surface isn't even mainstream itself. Have you ever seen a Surface outside of the NFL sidelines? They aren't selling.

Re:Mainstream

[ArchieBunker]

Yes. I know two people that own a Surface.

Re:Mainstream

[110010001000]

Sure. Gates and Ballmer. That isn't mainstream.

Re:Mainstream

[nyquil superstar]

Dunno about that. I've had two, just got the Book a few months ago. It's great. Have another in our (small) company. My casual airport observations (I fly quite a bit) tells me they've become very popular with businesses. Mostly the Pros, not so much the book. I used to see more Apple devices, but now it's become a LOT of Surface Pros. So it seems to be doing well with their target audience.

Re:Mainstream

[onkelonkel]

We bought them for our managers. Six of ten kept the surface pro tablets and four went back to laptops (zbook g3). So they are around.

Re:Mainstream

[thegarbz]

You should get your short term memory loss issues addressed. You're showing early onset of dementia.

Re:Mainstream

[squiggleslash]

Yeah, a surprisingly large number of people in my office have one. They do appear to be pretty popular. It could be my experience is unique, but I haven't seen any headlines suggesting Surface is a dud, and let's be honest, when Microsoft releases something that sells poorly (Zune, Lumia) or just doesn't do as well as it could (Windows 8), Slashdot is usually packed with mocking stories on the subject.

USB-C is nothing

[Anonymous Coward]

In 3 years it's gonna be USB-D with a slightly different shape. Then, all your stuff needs to be replaced at the same time.

Re:USB-C is nothing

[jaklode]

Yes, it's going to be the same length on all sides, so you have 4 ways to plug things in!

Remember 1995!

[__aaclcg7560]

Microsoft is the same company that almost missed the Internet for Windows. When The Road Ahead by Bill Gates came out, it had no mentioned of the Internet. Gates and the publisher revised the book. You can't have a visionary missing one of the biggest technological developments of his time.

Re:Remember 1995!

[thegarbz]

Missing something is not the same thing as adopting a standard that is unlikely to become mainstream for several years on a device that is only expected to last several years.

Re:Remember 1995!

[__aaclcg7560]

That is simply false.

Try reading your own link.

After the book was written, but before it hit bookstores, Gates recognized that the Internet was gaining critical mass, and on December 7, 1995 — just weeks after the release of the book — he redirected Microsoft to become an Internet-focused company; in retrospect he had "vastly underestimated how important and how quickly the internet would come to prominence". Then he and coauthor Rinearson spent several months revising the book, making it 20,000 words longer and focused on the Internet. The revised edition was published in October 1996 as a trade paperback, with the subtitle "Completely revised and up-to-date

Re:Remember 1995!

[__aaclcg7560]

Missing something is not the same thing as adopting a standard that is unlikely to become mainstream for several years on a device that is only expected to last several years.

And Apple has a better track record in adopting new technologies that went mainstream than Microsoft.

Re:Remember 1995!

[thegarbz]

No doubt it will go mainstream. What Apple does not have a good track record at (anymore) is adopting them at the right time.

You look through Apple's history of technological adoption and until recently they all had several things in common:
a) There was no impact to the end user, e.g. putting USB ports on a computer without removing any others.
b) Where there was an impact the impact was controlled through management of the experience: e.g. removing the floppy drive at a time when floppy drives were only used for BIOS updates and boot disks, after USB memory sticks became common, and at the same time providing a method to boot from USB.
c) They supported things well into their deathbed e.g. Firewire which outside of professional studios tapered long before it was dropped.

I said "(anymore)" because all that changed.
USB-C is the future, and that it will remain. I expect every laptop in 3 years will come with USB-C, and expect no laptop in 5 years to come with any older version except for machines bought specifically for compatibility. USB-C is definitely the future there's no doubt about that, and MS knows that too.

However Microsoft realises that going to USB-C now makes little sense for anyone other than the handful of people who have 2017 released mobile phones, and also realises that those mobile phones didn't come with USB-C cables.

Apple went full retard getting you to dongle the dongle dongle just so you can dongle your way through basic tasks that really shouldn't need a dongle, and it's still quite telling that if you go and buy an iPhone and a MacBook you will get home and unpack them only to find you can't plug the two into each other because "It just (doesn't) works" without a dongle.

In 3 years when the Surface Laptop is broken, bent, replaced or whatever the time will probably be right to start looking towards a USB-C device primarily.
Now that said they could have put a USB-C port on the thing, but they should find their place rightfully at the bottom of the ocean if they went *only* USB-C

Re:Remember 1995!

[__aaclcg7560]

The second release of the book added more of the same.

That's an additional 20,000 words added to the second release. That's an additional 80 pages of material to cover up the fact the Bill Gates had a cracked crystal ball.

How rare!

[Narcocide]

This almost never happens, but for once I agree with Microsoft here, even though I believe their real justification has something to do with sticking it to Apple.

What's the real reason?

[fustakrakich]

Is it a licensing issue? Are the royalties excessive?

Re:What's the real reason?

[Keith Russell]

All USB protocols and connectors are royalty-free to members of the USB Implementers Forum, and Microsoft is on their board of directors. And even if they weren't, I'm pretty sure they could find the US$4,000/year membership dues in the cushions of Satya Nadella's couch.

Re:What's the real reason?

[SeaFox]

Is it a licensing issue? Are the royalties excessive?

Duh. They want to be like Apple. Instead adopting USB-C they have the "Surface Connect" port -- a la Microsoft's own Lightning connector. I'm sure all the accessories that use it are either made by them or by companies paying them a licensing fee.

Fried Laptops? No thank you.

[DatbeDank]

Either have a dedicated power cable or figure out how to prevent low powered USB C ports from being fried if you plug in the wrong cable. Until they solve that problem, it isn't ready for the mainstream. The ports should be smart enough to not take the full voltage. I've already seen a few folks fry their expensive phones by plugging in the wrong USB C cable.

Re:Fried Laptops? No thank you.

[guruevi]

There is no reason modern electronics should fry unless they receive something truly out of spec (like a spike of 220VAC).

Re:Fried Laptops? No thank you.

[swillden]

The ports should be smart enough to not take the full voltage. I've already seen a few folks fry their expensive phones by plugging in the wrong USB C cable.

The problem is bad cables. I don't know why the USBIF is allowing so many manufacturers to call their cables "USB type C" when they don't comply with the specifications. Avoid buying bad cables and everything will be fine. On Amazon, look for Benson Leung's reviews.

Re:Fried Laptops? No thank you.

[thegarbz]

Until they solve that problem, it isn't ready for the mainstream

It's all part of the USB-PD standard. Problem was solved in inception. Don't buy $5 electronics which don't follow standards.

Re:Fried Laptops? No thank you.

[thegarbz]

Pay more to get the same functionality as you had before.

What the hell are you talking about. There's nothing "the same" about the new and old USB standard. Well actually there is one constant, a $5 may blow up your device both with the new and old standard. It may also burn your house down. Either way you're not paying "more" for the "same".

Re:Fried Laptops? No thank you.

[petermgreen]

20V on a 5V rail is plenty to fry stuff.

*IF* everything is compliant that should never happen. Devices should only raise the voltage from it's default 5V after a negotiation process involving both devices and the cable. The problem is that there is lots of noncompliant shit out there and the introduction of "power delivery"* means a much higher probability of noncompliant shit frying stuff rather than simply failing to work.

* Technically power delivery can be implemented on a variant of USB A/B but it is far more common on USB C stuff.

Re:Fried Laptops? No thank you.

[guruevi]

There are various over-voltage chips available in there market, off the top off my head the NCP370 protects from -30V to +30V, costs ~50c and is what I typically see on various USB powered systems (think RPi, ODROID, ...). I'm sure there are better chips that take more voltages.

There should be no manufacturer that powers the 5V rail directly from the USB pins without as much as a zener or a capacitor.

Windows 95 With USB Support

[sqorbit]

This coming from the company that labeled their Windows 95 CD's with "with USB support". Why not support it. Is it mainstream? probably not. Is it in use, yes. My Nexus device charges through my HP laptop with a USB C connection. My HP Envy offers me options with my USB ports. Why not provide the consumer with a choice?

They would say that wouldn't they?

[Trogre]

I bought a nice laptop with a USB-C port replicator. Didn't work worth a damn under Windows 10 (kept disconnecting-reconnecting every few seconds).

Installed Fedora and it has worked perfectly ever since.

There's a real reason USB 3 is a problem

[kriston]

There's a real reason USB 3 can be a problem.
Don't we all remember this?

https://plus.google.com/+BensonLeung/posts/LH4PPgVrKVN

https://www.reddit.com/r/Nexus6P/comments/3robzo/google_spreadsheet_for_usbc_cables_with_benson/

usbA/usbC

[sims 2]

We will get there eventually.
How about having a reasonable number of USBX ports?
Every computer should have at least 4 imho.

Sure I could use a hub but that's not the point.

Eh..

[XSportSeeker]

I'm not sure if the excuse works as the connector is going for almost every new smartphone/tablet/laptop released these days, but I have to agree with Microsoft (even though I think the Windows 10 S is an incredibly stupid idea) on this one.

USB Implementers Forum not only failed all my expectations, they managed to make me see USB Type C as worse than regular USB. It had the potential to fix all the problems of USB and make it even better, but somehow they managed to make it worse.

Ok, the connector is smaller, more robust and reversible. Which is something, I guess. But they didn't address almost anything worthwhile other than those. Compatibility standards are still loose (stuff like MHL, USB OtG and others are still obscured when not outright hidden from costumers), then came all the problems with defective cables, the mix up with yet another interface (Thunderbolt 3) using the same connector, more confusion for the average user... it's such a shame.

The worst part is that the increase in power on this flabby standard has real potential to cause circuit damages and fires, which is pretty much unacceptable. Hard to imagine how a forum like that with so much money invested could get things so wrong.

Re: Eh..

[Bartles]

The supply doesn't force it's rated power and cause the load to fry. The supply only produces enough power to supply what the load consumes. Circuits will only fry if they are poorly designed.

Why greatly reduces use of adaptors is not using

[SuperKendall]

USB-C is not as robust as USB-A. For a device that is expected to be replaced every year like a "smart" phone, USB-C is ok. For devices expected to last longer such as a laptop, USB-A is a better choice.

That is utterly stupid and backwards. For something that will just be around in a year, USB-A would be OK because that's still well supported.

But for something you plan to use for any length of time, more and more advanced stuff will come out primarily for USB-C. I would not buy a laptop I planed to use longer than two years at this point if it did not support USB-A.

Plus using USB-A ports greatly reduces the need for adapters or adapter cables.

Actually not the case already. I was looking for a decent small external case for an HD and the bets one I found was - USB-C!! I needed to buy an adaptor to use that with the USB-A on my laptop... When you buy a USB-C device you buy a small dock converter for a number of ports and then you are done, along with converting a few key things (like USB readers) to USB-C versions. Then you use them forever after because going forward USB-A is absolutely going to take over the USB world in short order.

This whole marketing idea that thinner is better is BULLSHIT!!

That's why marketing doesn't use that notion for any ad I've ever seen.

No, the very REAL advantage of USB-A is quite simple - you can plug it in either way. AT LAST the rest of the world gets to enjoy Lightning like simplicity in USB plugs.

Huge "benefit"

[SuperKendall]

The connectors are utterly flimsy and break with heavy use.

That's the only "benefit" of Micro-USB I can think of...

Oh wait, how about that there are actually three different micro-USB connectors that are super hard to tell apart, and almost ensure that the micro connector you have is not the one you need? At least the trapezoid and flatter variants, I swear there is a third too...

Re: Huge "benefit"

[skirmish666]

I think you're thinking of mini vs micro USB http://visual.ly/micro-usb-vs-... . The third type is micro USB upside down http://www.smbc-comics.com/?id... .

Re:Huge "benefit"

[jeremyp]

micro-A, micro-B, mini-A, mini-B. Plus a couple of proprietary versions like the plug for my digital camera.

Re:Huge "benefit"

[fnj]

there are actually three different micro-USB connectors that are super hard to tell apart

No there aren't. There is a Micro-A (the normal kind) and a Micro-B just like there is a standard A and standard B. Micro-A and Micro-B are well distinguished if you examine the contacts. There are also the obsolescent Mini-A and Mini-B, which are substantially thicker and shaped differently.

There is the OTG receptacle, which mates with EITHER a Micro-A or Micro-B, but that pretty much "just works", since it switches host/device roles depending on which one is plugged in.

Re:Huge "benefit"

[orgelspieler]

The Panasonic/Nikon cables are not actually USB, rather UC-E##. Common misconception. Also I've never seen the mini-A or micro-A in the wild.

Re: USB-C is a shit spec

[Bartles]

Most industrial automation electronics run a 24v control circuit.

Adapters...

[WestyPhoto]

Surely the adapters are only an issue until all the major players get on board with USB-C?! Odd comment from Microsoft...

Re:Adapters...

[petermgreen]

You are allowed an adaptor with a C plug and an A or B socket but you are not allowed an adaptor with an A or B plug and a C socket. Furthermore IIRC low speed USB perhiperals are not allowed to use a standard detatchable cable (something about low speed needing different cable characteristics from full/high speed).

So assuming perhiperal vendors want to support both old and new systems makers of low-speed perhiperals (keyboards, mice, joysticks etc) will have to continue using the A plug.

Re:USB-C is a shit spec

[Anonymous Coward]

Pardon me, but you are a fool.

The reason that the voltage on the cable is 20v is to reduce the I^2R losses in the cable and connectors. To deliver a useful amount of power at 5v, you would need to have cables that were physically bulky, with matching heavy connectors. Since power = voltage * current, increasing the voltage decreases the current proportionally. Since dissipation in the cable and connectors is proportional to the square of the current, the effect is substantial. Remember, a 10% reduction in the current makes a 19% reduction in the power dissipation in the cable. Moving from 5v to 20v reduces the current by a factor of four - reducing the dissipation in the cables and connectors by a factor of 16 - which is why the fairly small cables and connectors they are using can deliver a useful amount of power.

If you are actually using correct circuits to run the USB power delivery (which is in the spec, by the way), there is a nice little switch mode power supply in the loop - which handles the conversion perfectly. Cypress, TI and a number of other player offer well designed and properly specified chips that do exactly what they are supposed to. It is not the fault of the spec that some manufacturers will violate standards and cause issues - rather, it is the fault of the manufacturers in violation. The designers are right, and you are a moron,

Re:Why greatly reduces use of adaptors is not usin

[Bongo]

Yes, very true.

I'm sat here with various adapters and a couple of hubs. And ok, it seems like a costly kludge, but bandwidth and throughput are king, and that feels quite liberating, because on this laptop I can get to use an old Thunderbolt display and a bunch of Firewire drives and some eSATA drives and USB3 drives and a Thunderbolt enclosure, and so on. The point is, there's no bottleneck on account of the ports. Plus I stopped missing MagSafe when I realised I get to my desk and I plug in just ONE cable (either way up).

IIRC

[DaMattster]

Bill Gates said that TCP/IP would never go mainstream. Microsoft's crystal ball is cloudy and needs polishing.

Re:USB-C is a shit spec

[thegarbz]

Someone tell me one modern electronic device we use that runs on greater than 12V internally.

Your lack of knowledge of electricity is astounding. There's a reason why you would step up voltages for delivery and it has nothing to do with the final voltage of a device.

CPU power input: 12V

And here is a perfect example of why you have no clue. No part of the CPU uses 12V, yet there's a 12V delivery to it. Think about that for a moment.

I can guarantee plenty of devices are going to fry when the cable or controller fucks up

If the device fries it would be suicide from the device and nothing to do with the controller or the cable. You'd know this if you read the standard.

It's not ready for the mainstream, they're right

[AbRASiON]

It's a confusing jumble of inconsistencies and it's potentially dangerous with the plethora of bad cables there, EVEN from previously reputable sellers.
The spec requires a resistor (??) or something mildly fancy in it, instead of just a raw cable.
Look at this.
http://blog.fosketts.net/2016/...
It's a really good idea which needs some cleanup work, right now I'm avoiding it like the plague until it's 'final'

Problem With Marketing

[hipp5]

My big problem with USB-C is that there is a ton of confusion about what it actually is.

USB-C is always sold as "super fast", "allows high-wattage, bi-drectional charging", "high data volume for video and the like", etc. etc. But USB-C is just a connector format. So I bought a motherboard with a USB-C port thinking I was getting all these great benefits, only to realize that the port I got was USB 3.0/USB 3.1 Gen 1 (what bozo decided that the confusing renaming of 3.0 to 3.1 Gen 1 was a good idea???), no better than the other 3.0 ports I had always had.

And this confusion happened to me, someone who is very technically-inclined. Even a ton of the tech sites I read when trying to sort this issue out conflate USB-C (the connector) with USB 3.1 Gen 2 (the spec). How is the general public supposed to figure this out?

Re:Problem With Marketing

[Blaskowicz]

I think you're guaranteed 5 volts, 3 amps power on it so the benefit would be your PC can act as a decent power supply for a USB-C phone.

That's there is to it I think. If you let a cable hang from the PC and like to plug a (suitable) phone in for mass storage access or only for charging, you'll not be stuck at 500 milliamps or ~ 1 amp.

That you miss out on 10 Gbps is a shame but it's meaningless for hard drives and you can bet cheap flash drives will only support 5 Gbps. You pretty much need a PCIe SSD in your PC, and a fast external drive that's in practice an external SSD (thumb sized or not) to copy at 900MB/s or whatever the 10 Gbps (3.1 Gen 2) will allow.
You can also get a USB-C mouse, freeing up one USB-A port for something else!

Dongles!

[Sir Holo]

FTA: the Surface Laptop features only one USB 3.1 Gen1 Type-A port, one headphone jack, one Mini DisplayPort connector, and the Surface Connect port. Simplicity.

No. Not simplicity. Complicated dongle-ville.

Most every user will have to buy a USB port, at the least. And MS is offering a big dongle for $200 that has all of the ports that the laptop should have.

One mini-display port in the laptop? Really? This thing ought to be able to drive two external monitors right out of the box (as most good laptops do), yet it only has one port for display?

Simplicity my ass.

Re:Dongles!

[R.Mo_Robert]

One mini-display port in the laptop? Really? This thing ought to be able to drive two external monitors right out of the box (as most good laptops do), yet it only has one port for display?

Simplicity my ass.

I'm not a fan of the Surface myself, but you're wrong: you can hook up multiple monitors to the Surface, even with one Mini Display Port. You need to look up "Display Port chaining" before you continue spreading incorrect information.

Re:Dongles!

[Sir Holo]

One mini-display port in the laptop? Really? This thing ought to be able to drive two external monitors right out of the box (as most good laptops do), yet it only has one port for display?

Simplicity my ass.

I'm not a fan of the Surface myself, but you're wrong: you can hook up multiple monitors to the Surface, even with one Mini Display Port. You need to look up "Display Port chaining" before you continue spreading incorrect information.

I said one display port, not that the Surface couldn't support two monitors (like most any other good machine these days). If you want more, you have to buy a splitter or chain. In any case a dongle that costs extra and increases travel weight.

Re:Dongles!

[R.Mo_Robert]

I said one display port, not that the Surface couldn't support two monitors (like most any other good machine these days).

You said it should be able to support more than one display out of the box, implying it doesn't, but my apologies if I inferred too much.

If you want more, you have to buy a splitter or chain. In any case a dongle that costs extra and increases travel weight.

No, I'm still not sure you understand Display Port chaining. There are no "dongles" involved."

Re:Dongles!

[Blaskowicz]

No, I'm still not sure you understand Display Port chaining. There are no "dongles" involved."

You will need a monitor with a display in and a display out - effectively bundling the "dongle" into the monitor. That's not a universal solution. You might be likely to find it on a recent high end Dell monitor for instance, and use the monitor's USB 3.0 hub if also available. So in a case like that you'll do fine with no dongle or dock or kind of hub crawling on the desk without needing either Thunderbolt or USB-C.

Great!, if your monitor is recent enough and/or of a high enough market segment.

...Apple?

[Revarg]

I swear, it is like Apple designed a windows laptop. "we made it ultra simple to not confuse our dumb-dumb consumers, but for an extra $200 you can have this accessory that gives it what it should have had in the first place"

Stop with these USB plugs already.

[kbg]

Don't worry there will be a new USB type connector probably next year. I mean we already have what? At least 10 different USB plugs today. How many times to have these idiots have to reinvent the same plug for those 4 wires? Please for the love of god just stop.

Re:USB-C is a shit spec

[Khyber]

You're a double fool.

"The reason that the voltage on the cable is 20v is to reduce the I^2R losses in the cable and connectors."

For DC, you don't start defeating those losses until you go higher than 48V.

Perhaps you should spend few years actually designing DC devices. I spent a decade doing LED lighting design and figuring out what everyone else couldn't when it came down to why 8 foot of LED strips would blow out the power driver - 24V at input, at the end of the LED strips, you read 10V. Bear in mind, these LED strips were configured for parallel operation - the voltage shouldn't have mattered at all going across a mere 8 feet, yes? But that simple 8 foot run of LED caused so much voltage drop that your pathetic 20V would've failed by the second strip of LEDs.

You'd only beat those I^2R losses at 20V if you're pushing AC.

Re:USB-C is a shit spec

[Khyber]

"It also means you can now connect to scanner/printers/LCDs with a single wire, and change tablet with your computer directly. Think about how much that would simplify cable management!"

Oh, so the exact same thing we've had since USB-A. Gotcha.

"Having higher voltage means you can deliver more power with the same cable"

Yep and from what I've seen, most manufacturers can't make a proper HVLC cable. Most of them don't even know to use litz wire for HFAC in the first place.

" Plenty of 5v device are failing today due to improper design, so what?"

Generally not because of some improper power input design caused by a non-multiple of our power mains voltage vs device being charged. Step-down transformers and rectifiers are pretty well understood - it's the voltage here that makes no real sense.

Re:USB-C is a shit spec

[Khyber]

"There's a reason why you would step up voltages for delivery and it has nothing to do with the final voltage of a device."

Oh, but the final voltage of the device IS the end-all be all. However, with DC, you incur SERIOUS FUCKING LOSSES until you hit past 48V, so 20V was indeed a very fucking stupid choice.

Perhaps you should design electronics, like I do, before talking any further.

Re:USB-C is a shit spec

[Khyber]

"And here is a perfect example of why you have no clue. No part of the CPU uses 12V, yet there's a 12V delivery to it. Think about that for a moment."

I'm well the fuck aware. Guess what amperage is running inside your typical processor? Over 50.

However, they chose 12V not because of the distance of the fucking cable. They chose it because they could safely push about 10 amps to the VRMs at that voltage.

How about you come to one of my several facilities (Claremont, Riverside, San Bernardino) and I show you what real electronics engineers do? I've designed far more complex things than computer electronics.

Re:Why greatly reduces use of adaptors is not usin

[TheFakeTimCook]

Yes, very true.

I'm sat here with various adapters and a couple of hubs. And ok, it seems like a costly kludge, but bandwidth and throughput are king, and that feels quite liberating, because on this laptop I can get to use an old Thunderbolt display and a bunch of Firewire drives and some eSATA drives and USB3 drives and a Thunderbolt enclosure, and so on. The point is, there's no bottleneck on account of the ports. Plus I stopped missing MagSafe when I realised I get to my desk and I plug in just ONE cable (either way up).

And you forgot to mention that, because the MacBook Pro uses REAL USB-C/TB3, and not this hinky "Microsoft Expansion Connector", you get to choose among about a Googolplex of Hubs and Adapters, depending on your needs. And since there are FOUR identical USB-C/TB3 Ports on the MacBook Pro (except the non-touchbar 13", which has two ports, and the touchbar 13" which has four ports, but two of them are essentially USB-C/TB2), you can mix-and-match hubs for a myriad of I/O expansion configurations; but with the MS BS, you get to enjoy whatever MS has decided you need.

With USB-C/TB3, Apple has firmly left that "limited I/O" issue firmly in the past.

Re:USB-C is a shit spec

[thegarbz]

However, they chose 12V not because of the distance of the fucking cable.

Amazing. So you know that you deliver power at a different voltage to the final user because of losses, but you still managed crap out your earlier braindead comment.

And I'm not playing your silly double posting in anger game so for your other post:

Oh, but the final voltage of the device IS the end-all be all. However, with DC, you incur SERIOUS FUCKING LOSSES until you hit past 48V, so 20V was indeed a very fucking stupid choice.

There is a factor of 16 difference in I^2R losses between 5V and 20V in a given cable. It is also far more efficient to do small steps in voltages and avoids significantly large safety gaps in the PCB. Plus 20V at 5A hits a magical number where you can power pretty much every peripheral typically attached to a mobile device.

I design electronics for a living. You should quit since all you're able to do is criticise a standard you don't understand, for use cases that don't exist all the while proposing to do something that would make it even more complicated to design small electronics. Check your kit because you're no a true Scotsman.

Re:USB-C is a shit spec

[Khyber]

Check my kit? Son, my fucking kit takes up two entire goddamned warehouses, including semiconductor fabrication.

Come back when you're even half as advanced.

Re:USB-C is a shit spec

[thegarbz]

Thanks but if you're what's considered advanced I'll go and become a mechanical fitter and hit things with a hammer. It would seem to be a step up. Nice to meet you "real engineer"

Re:It should have had one USB C

[Blaskowicz]

I think that's the point. With USB A, you have the same connector on a $1000 whateverbook or a $300 whateverbook or a $200 whateverbook.
No need to spend $1000 in dad's money or student debt money or 100 hours of summer job money only to have to faff around with incompatible storage drives and peripherals.

Re:It IS ready for the mainstream, they're wrong

[Blaskowicz]

I once attempted to copy data between two USB2 drives (perhaps two hard drives, so fast in both read/write) on a USB1 computer (only two ports so sharing a single controller).

It was hilariously slow, as both ports shared (I believe) a theoretical 12Mbit/s bandwith, plus overhead, plus overhead of both working at the same time. But it was not incompatible. Worked just fine actually, as long as you were ready to wait hours for a gigabyte to copy.

Re:USB-C is a shit spec

[Khyber]

Real Mechanical Fitters press and roll-fit everything now days. You rarely see a lynch pin or collar fitting.

Yea, I used to do that for tractors back in the 90s. Try again, child.

Re:USB-C is a shit spec

[thegarbz]

lol

You just can't help yourself but use the no true Scottsman fallacy in every post can you. And then you consider your ineptitude an insult. Keep it coming, it's amusing.