Slashdot Mirror
New Evidence of a Decline In Electricity Use By U.S. Households (wordpress.com)
There's some surprising news from the Energy Institute at the University of California's business school. America's households are using less electricity than they did five years ago.
So what is different? Energy-efficient lighting. Over 450 million LEDs have been installed to date in the United States, up from less than half a million in 2009, and nearly 70% of Americans have purchased at least one LED bulb. Compact fluorescent lightbulbs (CFLs) are even more common, with 70%+ of households owning some CFLs. All told, energy-efficient lighting now accounts for 80% of all U.S. lighting sales.
It is no surprise that LEDs have become so popular. LED prices have fallen 94% since 2008, and a 60-watt equivalent LED lightbulb can now be purchased for about $2. LEDs use 85% less electricity than incandescent bulbs, are much more durable, and work in a wide-range of indoor and outdoor settings.
"I would add LED TVs replacing LCD, Plasma and CRTs," writes Slashdot reader schwit1.
It is no surprise that LEDs have become so popular. LED prices have fallen 94% since 2008, and a 60-watt equivalent LED lightbulb can now be purchased for about $2. LEDs use 85% less electricity than incandescent bulbs, are much more durable, and work in a wide-range of indoor and outdoor settings.
"I would add LED TVs replacing LCD, Plasma and CRTs," writes Slashdot reader schwit1.
When they say "I would add LED TVs replacing LCD, Plasma and CRTs" do they mean real ultra-expensive LED TV's, or do they mean those mainstream TV's that use LCD technology but call themselves LED because reasons?
"His name was James Damore."
how'd this story just appear 5 down from the top story all of a sudden?
Will probably shoot back up as more electric vehicles are purchased. Though it will be more night time charging.
I got a couple LED bulb's free from the local electricity provider as a "green" pack. They're surprisingly nice, too! I can hardly distinguish their light from a real 60 watt incandescent. Not like the original CFLs that gave everything a strange tint and took about 30 seconds to warm up and then crapped out long before their old-fashioned counterparts.
I would argue that improved quality has helped just as much as price. Now, hopefully they will last as long as the CFLs were supposed to. I'm gonna be pissed if the LEDs die before the incandescents. On the plus side, though, the failure mode will hopefully be something that's replaceable at home with a soldering iron and a steady hand.
Yes, fewer watts are being consumed, and the Earth has marginally become less rapidly less green because of it.
HOWEVER, the great SCAM in all this, is the Utilities, in concert with Lobbyists, Government, and Stock Market Investors (all four aka: thieves).... have conspired to raise the rate per kWh so that you are paying not just the SAME FUCKING AMOUNT per month as you were two decades ago, but MORE... all for LESS WATTAGE CONSUMED.
You're a bunch of fools.
And sheeple.
Durable is a relative term. While LED bulb may survive impacts and vibrations better, I've found a slew of brands out there have very short life spans, as short or shorter than incandescent bulbs did. Price really doesn't seem to matter either, its just pot luck on quality on the LED bulbs in what I would call the consumer level bulbs. So far I have found Osram to be the worst. Out of 16 I bought none made it more than 12 months of typical use. 4 failed catastrophically,. Out of the cheap LED bulbs, I've had the best luck with the UtiliTech from Lowes, although I have several of the WalMart brand that have been fine as well.
Overall I think the fluorescent bulbs were more reliable, and had a longer lifespan.
Enough with the nerd rage over marketing terms. You should be clever enough to have figured out that "LED TV" is used to mean "LCD TV with an LED backlight instead of CCFL" and OLED TVs are called, well, OLED. The LED backlight is, by the way, not a trivial thing when it comes to power use. If you look at an LCD most of the power it consumes comes from the backlight, with only a bit from the panel itself. So if you replace an older style set that uses CCFL backlights with a newer ones that uses LED backlights, you cut power consumption by a non-trivial amount.
Lights are certainly one factor but the average non-techie used a big power-hungry desktop computer to access the internet in the 1990's. Today, they use a power efficient phone or tablet, which runs on a tiny fraction of the power of those desktop monsters. That's 100-200 watts right there, continually if you left the computer on like a lot of people used to.
And my 9" RGB CRT projector STILL completely BLOWS AWAY the technical and subjective picture quality of all other technologies combined. At true PC based 1080p, not some compressed bullshit Bluray, it's fucking awesome.
The ONLY tech on the horizon that can compare is:
AMOLED - Screen burns requiring replacement just the same as CRT, and still has other image deficiencies.
RGB LASER - This is the shit, no burn, but again, has image deficiencies.
THEREFORE, CRT is still king (of dynamic range from 0 IRE, and color gamut, in particular). And if you know what you're doing, you can produce 4k RGB CRTs today for the upper mass market at a reasonable price. I'm even experimenting with my own HV drivers and color filters...
I would encourage you to research it and to enter the market... two SKUs is all you need... base video projection for PC platforms, and bells and whistles for standalone tuner / net as is the case with most LED TV's today.
Here is a chart of electricity prices in America since 1960. When corrected for inflation, prices today are about the same as 50 years ago. So, no, I don't think there has been any vast conspiracy to raise prices.
I have cut my consumption by about 40% in the last ten years. Since California has tiered pricing, and all my consumption is in the bottom tier (about 10 cents/kw-hr), my electricity bill is less than half what it was in 2007.
All my lights are LED.
All TVs and monitors went from CRT to flatscreen.
New more efficient refrigerator.
New dishwasher with air drying.
Attic fan to reduce need for A/C.
Ceiling fans in all bedrooms.
Clip fans under every desk.
All outside lights triggered by motion sensors.
And by far the biggest energy saver: Teenage daughter moved and and went to college.
The number of people in an average household has decreased. It's not surprising that fewer individuals use less electricity.
Well prices are expected to go up over time due to inflation. The real problem is that wages have been stagnant, and haven't kept pace with inflation.
Only crack the nuts that crack. You don't put the ones that don't crack in the sack.
rising costs of electricity still keeps electric bills higher for that significantly lower monthly consumption...
here, consumption is less than half what it was 10-15 years ago, but our bill is triple or more what it was then.
Add 'soak a t-shirt and wear it'. I'm a northern born type. anything above 70 degrees and I'm miserable. We spent a family reunion a few years ago at a cottage with no AC while it was 90+ degrees. Upon coming home, since we'd acclimated to very hot, I upped our AC temp setting from 70 to 74. Haven't noticed it a bit. (and we're living in DC area of VA so massive humidity).
:)
It's amazing how much extra temp you can handle when your t-shirt is wet
People in cars cause accidents....accidents in cars cause people
Never fear, the GOP is going to rescue you by making sure corporations pay no taxes!
Your welcome!
People in cars cause accidents....accidents in cars cause people
CRT is king of an obscure sub 1% of market share.
Good luck with that.
People in cars cause accidents....accidents in cars cause people
If her phone was using an emissive LED tech, such as the Galaxy S7's OLED display (and a fairly long list of others), a black screen does use less energy.
It's only LCD displays with LED backlights that behave as you describe.
I've fallen off your lawn, and I can't get up.
I think it's all supposed to trickle down somehow.
Only crack the nuts that crack. You don't put the ones that don't crack in the sack.
Wierdly most southerners are too stupid to insulate the hell out of their homes, Air conditioning works better in a heavily insulated home, yet most homes in the south have little to no insulation and the windows are worthless single pane glass that is almost no better than a camper window.
For example a typical florida home has almost no insulation and the AC runs all day long because spending $1500 to actually insulate the place and put radiant heat barrier in the roof is less important than marble countertops.
Insulate the freaking homes in the south and watch power useage drop significantly.
Do not look at laser with remaining good eye.
One of the PUDs in this area specifically raised prices because people weren't consuming as much.
You cant discount dvr cutback due to cable cutting and streaming. Dvrs were the 2nd highest usage next to hvac a few years ago. Also cpus in dvrs got more efficient
Well, let's put it this way. If your job is currently happy to pay for your gasoline or diesel right now, then yes, I expect they'll be happy to pay for your electrons instead (especially as it will cost them less, at least until the driving infrastructure taxation catches up.)
If they don't, however, I think you can most likely look forward to feeding an electron vending machine your money, assuming there are charging facilities provided.
I've fallen off your lawn, and I can't get up.
Think of the billion$ wasted on long lifetime CFLs
Most Americans pay less for electricity than anywhere else in the world and are wasteful of it as a result.
I didn't jump on the CFL bandwagon. I mean I replaced a few bulbs that had burned out but not all of them. I had to replace those CFL's a couple times too.
When LED first appeared I thought it was cool tech but the bulbs totally sucked. I tried ONE "nice" bulb and the light was horribly like a spotlight in one direction and they were stupid expensive.
Nowadays though, even the cheapest of the crap bulbs is damn good omnidirectional and the price, while not incandescent level, is still good enough.
I have yet to have an LED burn out, even that crap original one I bought (I use it as a spotlight on my workbench). I think my oldest is at least 10 years old. Probably not good for the manufacturers, but good for consumers!
We barely use any lights at home.
During the day, only need lights to make b'fast (we rise early) for about 20 min a day and in the bathrooms.
Projector is used for evening entertainment - it is an LED projector, but still needs a lamp.
Tablets are used for reading. No need for lights.
The house has about 30 lights total - lots of ceiling fans here. I've swapped out fewer than 5 for LED bulbs. The rest are old incandescent bulbs waiting to fail.
The overhead fluorescent lights in the kitchen need to be replaced. Been meaning to do that about 2 yrs. I'll get to it.
The entire electric bill last month was $68. Most of that was for the fridge and computers. In July and August, the bill will be about $140 - mostly for air conditioning. The rest of the year, it is $65-$75.
In short, lights are the least expensive part of our electric bills.
I recently had to put in a maintenance request to have the florescent tubes in the light fixture over the bathroom sink. I told the maintenance guy that there must be something wrong with the light fixture, as the tubes only last two to six months before needing replacement again. I got CFLs over my kitchen table that are 5+ years old. The maintenance guy laughed and told me that this was by design. If the florescent tubes go out every six months, maintenance — and the leasing office, indirectly — will have two opportunities each year to get into each apartment to look for problems not being reported.
You are understating the costs a whole lot. $1500 isn't what it costs to do a good job insulating a home. You can spend that on a single good window. It costs quite a bit to get a well made window with two (or three) panes of low-e glass, filled with an inert gas, and so on and then of course you have to pay to have the old one cut out and the new one installed. You can get something much lesser quality and just drop it in the existing thin frame for a good bit less, but you don't get the big efficiency gains unless you do it right and have ti really redone.
So on a normal house with some big windows and sliding glass doors you can hit $5-10k easily just in redoing your glass.
Walls are another matter. Depending on the construction of your house, it can me pretty to very costly to insulate your walls. If you have something that is drywall mounted straight on concrete block, there's nowhere to insert insulation. You have to either tear down the drywall, add in framing, insulate in that, and put up new drywall (which also cuts down on the size of rooms) or tear off the exterior facade, add insulation, and put up a new one. Either way it's 5 figures to do.
It's a lot of money to renovate an old home and make it energy efficient.
Never fear, the GOP is going to rescue you by making sure corporations pay no taxes!
Your welcome!
So move to Greece or Venezuela if you want to live in a socialist paradise.
People are constantly crying that we need to reduce CO2 use...
Let's pretend that's actually true. As this article alludes to, in many ways the U.S. already HAS, and very substantially.
So substantially in fact that a while ago we already met a number of targets for CO2 reduction (like the Koyoto protocol).
As the use of LED's and electric cars spreads (which is inevitable) we'll reduce energy usage even further - all without a single punishing act of legislation.
If education of CO2 is really important, the US has already done more than they need to and will continue to improve. Any reduction at this point must look to other countries...
Except even there the story is the same. China is moving to electric cars as fast as they can, the only viable means of solving the terrible pollution crisis they have. LED and solar use will continue to spread across the world over the next few decades as prices fall and efficiency rises.
Basically what I'm saying is, don't believe the fear mongers, do not panic... the earth is just fine on the trajectory we already have, all without pushing anyone out of civilization.
"There is more worth loving than we have strength to love." - Brian Jay Stanley
I think it's all supposed to trickle down somehow.
Gonna be funny as hell if Trump and the GOP cap the deduction for state taxes.
All those "pay your fair share" folks in Democrat-controlled high-tax states will have to, well, pay their fair share and no longer get their high state taxes subsidized by low-tax states.
The eia reports consumer electricity usage in the same range it's been stuck in since 2000. Speculating which runs contrary to previous examples, namely that energy efficiencies lead to anything besides increased energy use due to cost savings, would require data, not speculation.
I know you're trolling, but....
If it bothers you THAT much, just go off grid. Solar panels plus some batteries and a "lender of last resort" propane generator. You'll sleep soundly knowing you're not being fucked by the man even though you're probably now paying more for your electrons.
It's probably declining because utilities are charging an arm and a leg through their smart meters.
http://stopsmartmeters.org/2017/05/04/unhappy-duke-energy-customers-in-ohio-kentucky-and-indiana-are-you-one-of-them/
I tried that trick when we moved from Chicago to Houston last year. I went to sit on the sofa in my wet t-shirt and my wife chased me off with a rolled up newspaper.
In places like this, the air conditioning is more for the humidity than the heat. When the thermostat is set above 75, I end up with severe swamp ass.
You are welcome on my lawn.
Since efficient bulbs are being used, some lamp/lighting outlets, like IKEA, have reduced wattage on their standing and ceiling lamps.
This is rather annoying. I do use efficient bulbs, but like to have a bit of versatility. IKEA reduced their Tertial work lamp to 13 watts, down from 250 watts. The old one could accept brighter CFLs or maybe even heat bulbs. The new one is practically LED only. (Given that these are work lamps someone might put in a garage, it's insane that the new ones won't support incandescent bulbs at all.) It's even worse with ceiling lights where you might want a bit more brightness to light up a room.
I'm also annoyed that ceiling fan/light combos are apparently required to use only smaller bulb sockets instead of normal E26 sockets. This is apparently a power saving scheme, but it's easier to find E26 LED or CFLs, so it's very annoying.
In short, it really grinds my gears.
Instead of asking why electricity use has dropped slightly since 2010, why has electricity use increased so much since 1990? I take these figures to be residential electric use because factoring in industrial - factories - and commercial -- offices, stores, and schools, the per capita use would be considerably higher.
Year 1990 doesn't seem like some opening-a-frontier event like rural electrification or replacing coal home heating with home natural gas service. You would think that everyone wanting central A/C by 1990 would have central A/C? What electric use has been a growth market?
Wide-screen TVs? People being wealthy enough to afford bigger McMansion-style houses? Internet surfing? I am not trying to scold anyone "Why do you use so much electricity and I get by with so little." I am genuinely curious as to what accounts for the large growth in electric demand.
the funny thing is those 'liberals' are all about people paying their fair share. They're the ones saying we should RAISE the federal income tax to pay for our actual expenses.
And of course this would mean the GOP is in favor of double taxation
People in cars cause accidents....accidents in cars cause people
People are wisely saving as much as they can while Treasonous Trump is busy in office selling out our nation to Russia while selling out the middle class to his more successful chronies.
All of my lights have been LEDs for at least 5 years.
Aside from my DLP projector, all of my displays are LCD.
My refrigerator uses about $60 of electricity per year.
I wash my dishes by hand.
Insulation and triple paned windows to reduce A/C on time. I live in an area where I never need to use a heater.
Central air and all rooms are insulated. No fans needed or desired whatsoever.
My outside lights automatically come on at sundown and turn off at sunup. They recharge themselves during the day. I live in an area where it is sunny every day.
Biggest energy saver for me: Never had or wanted children. They ruin everything.
should get an education because "LED" TVs *ARE* LCD with a LED backlight. Sheezus fuck already.
I can't tolerate temperatures above 22 degrees. I have to turn on AC if it goes higher. Ideally I like it to be 15 degrees inside of my house at all times.
Venezuela isn't socialist it's totalitarian.
People in cars cause accidents....accidents in cars cause people
So $2 = $4 in Canada... Cheapest LED bulb I can find, NOMA A19 LED Light Bulbs "60W".
After that the price rise a bit to $7+ with the more expensive one costing at least $20... for a single bulb.
It's not a scam... since manufacturing has fallen off residential power is becoming the bulk of usage. In the 1950's manufacturing was using its of electricity which subsidized homes somewhat. Now homes are becoming the primary users.. and we don't pay much for all the wiring they have to maintain to get it to us. That's why things like data centers almost have to be strategically placed and the big players are adding solar/wind options. It's not a shortage, but distribution is all screwed up. Manufacturing isn't coming back so the whole organization of the generators and lines has to move. Giant coal plants are closing because they don't have the bulk customers anymore, and electric companies are moving to gas-fired stations that fit in an average light industrial park now.
Do you even know what you are talking about? Double pane windows have been the standard for over 30 years and on newer homes low-e is installed to reflect the heat out. When it is 99 degrees and humidity is 60% the AC is going to run all day long. Most hvac systems are only designed to change the temp difference by 25 degrees. Have you ever been in the south before?
What about my welcome?
Confucius say, "Find worm in apple - bad. Find half a worm - worse."
Given that domestic power consumption is insignificant compared to industrial and commercial use, how relevant is this? How is power consumption overall affected?
I love stacking my barbecues in the shed at the end of summer - you can't beat a bit of grill on grill action.
Well prices are expected to go up over time due to inflation. The real problem is that wages have been stagnant, and haven't kept pace with inflation.
From year to year I think inflation and CPI is an okay measure. Over long stretches of time, well... according to some measures the US middle class hasn't improved at all since the 1970s. But if you took a family from 1970 and transported them to 2017, would they want to go back? There's no internet. No PCs. No cell phones. No digital cameras. Maybe there's lots of things you'd spend money on in 1970 that doesn't really make any sense in 2017. There will be things in 2017 that no money can buy in 1970, what's the value of that? Average lifespan has gone up from 71 to 79 years, what's 8 more years of life worth? That you get more money and spend more money is hardly the only valid way to quantify life.
Live today, because you never know what tomorrow brings
It's totalitarian because that's the only way socialist states can stay in power.
You're Winner!!
https://static.giantbomb.com/uploads/original/0/1072/205620-carz_2008_07_22_12_34_26_82.jpg
The electrical utility is one of the most highly regulated industries.
Ceiling fans in all bedrooms.
I have a 2.3 kw split airconditioner in a bedroom in my house. I have never managed to get it to use more than 85 watts. The only time I saw 85 watts was when the room was about 40 deg C (104F) and it was set to cool it to 17C (62F). It tends to cycle between about 45 watts and 1.8 watts when it is just set to run all the time. That keeps it cool and uses less power than the ceiling fan. The worst part of ceiling fans is they often use the J series halogen tube bulbs that often add 150 watts of heat to a room when someone leaves the light on.
A modern inverter based 2.5kw split system with a 4.5 efficiency can move 2.5kw of heat out of the room using 550 watts of energy. 2.5kw is about a 3/4 ton of A/C for people who prefer to think of cooling in tons of melting ice per day.
They have if you look at the minimum wage. It probably above historic mean.
https://www.dol.gov/whd/minwage/chart.htm
Most Southerners that have poorly insulated homes aren't too stupid but too poor to have a well insulated home. New homes in the South are very well insulated. I live in Arkansas which is considered a backwater even in the South. My home is about 3 years old with 2x6 exterior construction with an insulated concrete slab foundation and close to three feet of cellulose insulation in the attic. My AC barely runs except when it is above 100F or it is so damned humid I turn the thermostat down to make that manageable.
I also have a solid six figure income in an area where the median household income is under $40k in a state that is worse off than that. If you make $30,000 a year as a family, you can't afford a well made new house now can you spend $20,000+ on a re-model. Where I live the summers are hot but the winters get pretty cold too (and sometimes only a few weeks divides the two), so the insulation would really pay off but if you can barely feed yourself then an extra bill is just not going to happen if they can even get the loan to do it.
Neither are the Nordic "socialist states".
socialistworker
lol., fair. I blame phone keyboard!
People in cars cause accidents....accidents in cars cause people
You realize those high tax states subsidize the low tax states...?
Scandinavia and Europe would like a word with you....
People in cars cause accidents....accidents in cars cause people
Where on Earth have you seen ceiling fans using that bulb? Everything I've seen these days uses those infuriating little E12 bulbs which until recently weren't available in Cree TrueWhite series, but thankfully now are. Best LED bulbs out there hands down, although I've had about a 5-10% failure rate (two bulbs dead in total but both from the same it'll in a bathroom so probably condensation-related.) In fact I'm pretty sure I read that Bush II signed a law requiring use of E12 bulbs in ceiling fans.
if he gets to decry 'socialism' with an extreme example of Venezuela....using 'Socialist Democracies' of Scandinavia is perfectly legitimate
People in cars cause accidents....accidents in cars cause people
Venezuela isn't socialist
Liar.
it's totalitarian.
Better known as end-stage socialism.
-jcr
The only title of honor that a tyrant can grant is "Enemy of the State."
And by far the biggest energy saver: Teenage daughter moved and and went to college.
So you're paying $X0,000 per year in tuition to save $Y0/mo on power?
Good deal that :-)
It's totalitarian because that's the only way socialist states can stay in power.
The US is a socialist state to some extent. The government has a fair amount of control in health, education, sanitation and defence. Those are all elements of a socialist state.
Scandinavia and Europe...
Scandinavia is part of Europe last time I checked...
Weren't they the ones protesting the demise of W lamps.
Nullius in verba
Em,healthier foods,less polluted environment,happier work force,less greedy people,better educated populations,some officials who could be trusted.
More wildlife,less humans,etc etc
I was there in the 70's,I would gladly go back,internet just brings same content,just quicker.
"advantages" after 40+ years of so called progress = 0
whoosh
I think you're measuring wrong maybe you're measuring the wattage of the inside fan? I just don't see getting a 2.3kw unit down to 85 watts with a compressor and fan running.
Minimum threshold fixed. Thanks!
Replacing almost all of my bulbs with LED bulbs has just about offset the higher electricity costs from adding new devices.
Devices that are never really "off".
I can't tolerate temperatures above 22 degrees. I have to turn on AC if it goes higher. Ideally I like it to be 15 degrees inside of my house at all times.
Let me guess, your BMI is above 30?
Fat people have a thicker layer of insulation and overheat easier. The volume to surface area ratio also means that perspiration has less of a cooling effect.
Fortunately, something can be done about it besides turning on an air conditioner.
Never fear, the GOP is going to rescue you by making sure corporations pay no taxes!
Corporations don't pay taxes; they collect taxes.
For those of us who live in hot / temperate places where air conditioning is a way of life, going to LED lights and LED-backlit TVs have a knock-on effect -- much less energy is wasted as heat - heat that then has to be dealt with by the air conditioning systems.
Surely the power companies knew this was coming, right?
On a related tangent, I'm old enough to remember the first wave of solar euphoria euphoria in the 70's. That wave really didn't go anywhere fast. Solar panels aren't efficient enough to power tungsten and CRT, and fluorescent lighting isn't that much more efficient.. but with LED? Yeah, solar now really does have a chance.. but not because solar.. but because LED... oh and modern batteries / capacitors to hold stored energy.
The "Civilized World" jumped the shark ca. 1973.
Nope. I am 180cm, 70kg, 7% body fat, athletic build. Pretty average around here.
Most of us aren't fat like Americans are.
It's a socialist state in denial. I blame a generation getting intensive cold war propaganda: They know that socialism is evil, oppressive and unamerican, they just don't know what socialism actually means.
Your nostalgia is showing. All of those things you listed were as bad if not considerably worse then than now, except for there being more wildlife and fewer humans. The problems you attribute to modern society are all things that were taken for granted or ignored back then, you just didn't hear about them as much because there wasn't a cheap means of nigh-instantaneous global communication to bring those problems to society's collective attention.
On the whole the food was worse for you because there weren't as many regulations preventing you from being poisoned by unsafe preparation techniques, and you had no idea what you were actually eating because nutrition labels weren't even a thing until 1990; everyone hated their jobs just as much then as now (if not more, if you count black people and women, who were still actively being discriminated against); rich assholes were less insanely rich but still the same assholes; Americans on the whole had much worse educations then as now (viz., literacy rates over time, if nothing else); confirmed traitor Richard Nixon was president over several of those years; and the only reason you trusted anyone for the news back then was because you effectively only had one source of information.
On top of all that, you still had much higher violent crime rates due to the leaded gasoline fumes that everyone was still inhaling, higher rates of death to smoking, deaths due to conditions/diseases that are now preventable and/or entirely treatable, a smog problem in every major city that only Beijing rivals now, and all kinds of other problems that would take too long to list.
Oh yeah, and Vietnam.
Face it, man, unless you were on something, the 70s sucked.
I'd love to go back to 1970. I wasn't alive in 1970 but it seems like a much more interesting time than now. Though I'd prefer to go to new year's eve in 1969 so I don't miss the unix epoch
Capcha: gasoline :)
And by far the biggest energy saver: Teenage daughter moved and and went to college.
You may appreciate this then. I don't have kids (let alone teenagers), but the previous owners of my house did. And you can piece together the arguments between teenagers and parents. I think he kept on leaving his bedroom light on. The reason I believe that in what was his bedroom, the lightswitch had been replaced by one of those you find in the hallways in apartment complexes where you press it for 5 minutes of light.
SJW n. One who posts facts.
It's king because is the best display technology available, in particular for front projection on prepared walls in homes under exacting standards of technical video quality.
Of course CRT computer monitors are for the most part stupid these days.
CRT front projectors... different story.
Man you're smart...If the PRICES per kWh have remained the SAME over decades, and you've CUT your CONSUMPTION, then your bill should drop.
People's monthly bills have NOT dropped over the recent 10-20 years.
Therefore something in those bills has GONE UP or BEEN ADDED to compensate.
It's very similar to how it's really hard to get cell service for under $30/mo.
Or internet service for under $50.
Etc.
Do the math and you'll find the cost of the services are much less.
There's just an unspoken agreement in place.
Typically to the dividend holders of utilities sector stocks, including oil.
It's called arbitrary wealth transfer.
From you, to them.
Humidity
A/C is used for 2 purposes.
Cool the air AND remove humidity.
I live in the south. We have double-paned windows. Sure, they aren't triple-paned like in the mountains, but they do work.
Our homes are wrapped for an air-barrier.
Ever heard the statement - it isn't the heat, it is the humidity?
Bullshit, that is just fiscal irresponsibility at the state level. The federal subsidy allowing State and Local taxes to be deducted from the federal tax puts the burden on the taxpayer to the lower tax states for the out of control spending of high tax states.
Watching the moon landing was epic!
Pointing to technological advancement does not change the equation of stagnant money coming into households. Sure, there were no cell phones, but you had a land line you paid out the butt for or a CB radio that cost an arm and a leg. There was no internet, so you purchased more things like subscriptions to magazines, newspapers, comic books, and other contemporary "information services." Has technology made information more accessible at lower cost? Sure. Does the average American have more money to spend on hobbies, vacations, luxuries, or investments? No.
if you took a family from 1970 and transported them to 2017, would they want to go back? There's no internet. No PCs. No cell phones. No digital cameras. Maybe there's lots of things you'd spend money on in 1970 that doesn't really make any sense in 2017. There will be things in 2017 that no money can buy in 1970, what's the value of that? Average lifespan has gone up from 71 to 79 years, what's 8 more years of life worth? That you get more money and spend more money is hardly the only valid way to quantify life.
I'm sure you have some sort of point, but I can't for the life of me see what it has to do with power consumption.
"Scandinavia is part of Europe last time I checked..."
I had a Scandinavian girlfriend once, I' don't exactly know from where, I just know she wasn't from Finland, because when we had sex, she always screamed: "No I'm not Finnish!"
"I'd love to go back to 1970. I wasn't alive in 1970 but it seems like a much more interesting time than now. "
Indeed, Jim Morrison was still alive.
Add 'soak a t-shirt and wear it'.
He said, "Teenage daughter moved and and went to college."
Wow. talk about a non sequitur. If wage disparity were reduced to 1970's levels then would cell phones, internet and digital cameras disappear? No? Well I guess that's because your response had absolutely nothing to do with the point you addressed. So what that technological development has occurred. It does not correct the disparity. In fact disparity has gotten much worse. Of course the lapdogs of unenlightened greed will try to point out tech advancement, but the disparity is not required to have advancement. In fact to the contrary. As the US continues to become weaker due to disparity the advancements in the US become less and less. The things you pointed out had their tech foundations in the mid to late 20th century. What's down the road now? Drones to spy and replace labor? Robots to replace labor? Oh WOW maybe a new phone app! Wheee!!!!
It's all a commie plot. Hippies want to make us all live in caves. Agenda 51, run, run to the hills!
I just use 40watt soft-white LEDs for my ceiling fan. I tried 100 watt, but it blinded me, then I tried 60 and the room was still way too bright. 40 watts was just right. The "40 watt" bulbs are 7 watts and 470 lumens. My ceiling fan has 3.
Also end-stage capitalism.
Basically, totalitarianism is end-stage [insert soio-economic system here], for the simple reason that wealth and power are self-catalyzing, and so *any* system that allows individuals to accumulate them without restriction, via any means, will eventually end up concentrating enough wealth and power into the hands of the few that they no longer need to concern themselves with the opinions of the masses.
--- Most topics have many sides worth arguing, allow me to take one opposite you.
There is also that nasty thing called general hyperhidrosis. (I thought it was rather rare though)
My body kicks into full throttle cooling mode much earlier, than normal people's.
But when it's too hot for everyone (e.g. sauna) one won't notice any difference.
Yeah it's hard to put a price on the internet. In the 80s or early 90s I would have given my soul for a handheld device that was connected to a global network that could talk to anyone at any time via many modes of communication and could access what is more or less the sum total of human knowledge on a whim.
Yeah there are people that don't appreciate that.. But you know what? Fuck 'em. They'll die one day and the world will move on to bigger and better things.
If wage disparity were reduced to 1970's levels
I don't get why people care so much about wage disparity. What does it matter how much richer than you the richest are? What matters is how you live, and the average -- or even bottom tier -- person in the 2010s lives longer, eats better, is less likely to suffer violence, has a larger home, has cleaner air and water, etc., etc., etc., for almost any variable you can name than someone in the same position 40 years earlier.
Why the focus on comparing your position to that of others, rather than appreciating what you have?
Note to ACs: I usually delete AC replies without reading them. If you want to talk to me, log in.
If you want to nitpick: no.
Iceland is part of Scandinavia but not part of Europe.
Enough nitpicking?
Cost free eBook I read (by iBook/Kobo/Amazon/ObookO/Gutenberg etc.): "The Green Odyssey" by Philip Jose Farmer.
From year to year I think inflation and CPI is an okay measure. Over long stretches of time, well... according to some measures the US middle class hasn't improved at all since the 1970s. But if you took a family from 1970 and transported them to 2017, would they want to go back? There's no internet. No PCs. No cell phones. No digital cameras. Maybe there's lots of things you'd spend money on in 1970 that doesn't really make any sense in 2017. There will be things in 2017 that no money can buy in 1970, what's the value of that? Average lifespan has gone up from 71 to 79 years, what's 8 more years of life worth? That you get more money and spend more money is hardly the only valid way to quantify life.
What about the ability for single-income families to afford a house? How about employer-employee loyalty and for-life jobs at a single company (i.e., stability)? How about decent pensions? Not living paycheck-to-paycheck? Have any of those things improved?
Given the election of a populist leader, I think a lot of people are feeling pain right now, and many things have gotten worse over the past few decades. (Though I'm sure for others things have improved.)
Yes, there are illnesses that can cause overheating, but that's not the general case. Healthy people should be able to deal with 12-30C temperature ranges without any real problems, and if it is a problem beyond "it would be nicer if it were cooler/warmer", seeing a doctor should be the first thing to do, not buying an AC.
Saunas (Nordic ones that are actually in the 90-100C range) work because your body goes into a special mode, restricting blood flow to the surface. It's possible to sit with teeth clattering because of being cold in a hot sauna, because of the full insulation retaining the internal chill from your cold shower or snow roll for quite a while.
The cooler American-style "saunas" that's only in the 50-70 C range are more problematic, because they're not hot enough for the body to enter this state. So you end up like a red lobster. Even more so because of the aversion to nakedness causing Americans to cover themselves with towels or bathing suits, reducing the cooling effect of profuse sweating. Add that they're below the dew point, so benches won't be dry but covered with hot moisture. It's an uncomfortable experience compared to a real sauna, and I'm sure temperature sensitive individuals can have a hard time with them.
why people ere mixing up median with average is beyond me: an area where the median household income is under
Median is in 905 of the cases where it is mentioned on /. completely irrelevant.
Hint: [1, 6, 8] and [-50, 2, 4, 100]Âhave the exact same meridian (which is 6, if you are to dumb to figure it).
Cost free eBook I read (by iBook/Kobo/Amazon/ObookO/Gutenberg etc.): "The Green Odyssey" by Philip Jose Farmer.
The new aircons that dehumidify before cooling are great. We keep the house at 78 in the summer with no problems.
Linux, you magnificent bastard, I read the fucking manual!
Even a regular old air conditioner will remove some of the humidity. The ones with built-in dehumidifiers are much better at it though.
You are welcome on my lawn.
"Bush II signed a law requiring use of E12 bulbs in ceiling fans."
Ugh. Ridiculous, big government "conservatives."
Those experiments haven't been completed.
Again, projection TV onto a wall....is a 1% market share.
People in cars cause accidents....accidents in cars cause people
People are generally using more electricity than 20 years ago, but less than five years ago. Mystery solved.
Only if the taxes were paid on revenue rather than profit would this be true
Rock music was great back then, at least.
I'm getting tired of the self perpetuating "Americans are fat" narrative. It's overused and getting old.
Let me guess, your BMI is above 30?
Fat people have a thicker layer of insulation and overheat easier. The volume to surface area ratio also means that perspiration has less of a cooling effect.
Fortunately, something can be done about it besides turning on an air conditioner.
Are you seriously suggesting 'lose weight' is as an adequate cooling suggestion, on par with 'turn on the ac'? Because it's not. It's about as helpful as saying 'move somewhere cooler' or 'live underground' or 'become nocturnal'.
Also they should notice a rise energy consumption at businesses and public venues as people charging their phones etc more at these places than home.
Haha, no, we're using the right amount of a less-scarce resource to save on some other more-scarce resource. When electricity is cheaper than elbow grease, it makes no sense to substitute the latter for the former.
Can you be Even More Awesome?!
That's great and all, but before people start patting themselves in the back, read the source and understand the limits of what is being presented.
The study on the source, right by the end of it, talks about a possible rebound effect. Speculative, but still, it does make sense.
Also, this is only about US households... here's what the wordwide energy consumption statistics look like:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/...
US basically comes in second with China in first, that's considering that China has 4x the population yet consumes less than double, and basically is the factory of the world right now.
To be fair, electricity usage in households is not a good measure of anything other than itself. Different countries will have different needs, and the numbers will vary quite a lot depending on location. The stuff that usually consumes electricity the most in a household are heating and AC.
The green energy push has had significant help from government regulations and subsidies
Yes, which I am thinking helped propel the light bulb industry forward by about five years or so... basically nothing in the grand scheme of things.
The same is even more true of electric cars, which are inevitable in the long run but after many years are still a blip in terms of real world use and so do not really impact CO2 emissions much, despite very heavy subsidies - you basically were just giving a lot of money to the rich to have cool cars.
Appropriate regulation improves quality of life
This is SUCH a lie. You don't know how many people were FORCED to use horrible CFL bulbs as older bulbs were forced of the market. They would have died off naturally anyway as superior LED bulb use grow - instead you forced YEARS of horrid lighting on people. That does not "improve the quality of life" for anyone.
"There is more worth loving than we have strength to love." - Brian Jay Stanley
Air conditioners, refrigerators, dishwashers, and other appliances, in contrast, all have 10+ year lifetimes. Thus, although these other technologies have also become more energy-efficient, this canâ(TM)t explain the aggregate decrease. The turnover is too slow, and the gains in energy-efficiency for these other appliances have been too gradual for these changes to explain the aggregate pattern.
This makes no sense. Proliferation of ECM motors in air handlers and variable compressors alone can completely explain these results by themselves. You don't get to ignore big ticket items with lower annual churn rate.
Lighting costs me $30/year with most areas using Incandescents by choice.
My current Air Handler + AC is the highest single cost driver at $200/year down from about twice that after replacing old system four years ago once it crapped out. This change alone literally cut monthly electric usage in half.
What really matters is CONSTANT WATTS. Indoor/Outdoor lighting active all night long is worth spending money on energy efficient options. Everywhere else the investment is meaningless.
In my case computer upgrades over last few years have been second most significant driver of energy related cost savings behind ECM air handler as they are typically on all or most of the time and significantly more energy efficient than previous models.
Also don't discount wall warts. A half dozen old fashioned wall wart transformers can easily consume as much energy as your Microwave oven when you run the numbers in terms of constant watts. Todays dirt cheap switched mode wall warts are harmless.
But it's followed by the slow crushing of hope for the future once people realise that the space race is over now, and all those dreams of martian colonies and mankind exploring the universe aren't going to happen in their lifetime.
A Quarter Of American Adults Can't Pay All Their Monthly Bills; 44% Have Less Than $400 In Cash. "Just as concerning were other findings from the study: just under one-fourth of adults, or 23%, are not able to pay all of their current month's bills in full while 25% reported skipping medical treatments due to cost in the prior year. Additionally, 28% of adults who haven't retired yet reported to being grossly unprepared, indicating they had no retirement savings or pension whatsoever."
aluminum to copper new tech environmentally conscious federal mandate efficiency improvement FUCKING BROKE appliance rebates more gas ...
<blink>down the rabbit hole</blink>
I keep getting letters from my power company that I am using 109% more than what I should be. I am running a plasma 50in tv a lot (600watts)
I have a couple of grow lights totaling 1400 watts, and no I don't grow weed. I just like to start plants indoors during winter. Soon I will be running my AC and turning off the grow lighting. I can see a push from power companies on consumers helping this along.
Its like I keep my microwave running full time. I did switch to LED light bulbs long ago. They work great and look better than cfls. the lack of mercury vapor is a big plus too. So I live alone and use more power than a family I guess. My TV looks great and I don't want to give it up. When it craps out I will go for a OLED, but hopefully that is many years down the road.
Says who?
That's "tinkle-down" economics. Invented under Reagan but perfected under more recent Presidents.
Not at Home Depot!
Whatever. I'll pay the extra $50/mo in electric bills versus $50k in home improvements. I will be dead, hell my GRANDKIDS will be dead, long before even breaking even on that ROI!
I'd also venture that the decrease had something to do with all the desktop and laptop computers that have been powered down in favor of tablets or phones that also happen to draw far less power. I'm sure lighting is the bigger factor, but older electronics in general are pretty power hungry.
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/sci...
There's a gender bias that's unrelated to weight.
Let me guess, you like fat shaming?
My preference for temperature hasn't changed much as my weight has fluctuated.
Learn to love Alaska
Sure there are more gadgets now. But then, in 1970:
- Very likely, the mother didn't work. Now she does.
- The father probably had a living wage, decent health insurance and retirement savings.
- The kids were significantly less likely to be involved with guns, gangs or drugs.
- The suicide rate was 40% lower
Is internet and cellphones really worth all that?
These ballasts were at least 20 years old, possibly even 30 years old.
The old lights took 7-12 seconds to even turn on, then another 5-10 seconds to hit full brightness.
These LEDs are super bright, instant on, and use much less power. What's the down side?
The cooler American-style "saunas" that's only in the 50-70 C range are more problematic, because they're not hot enough for the body to enter this state.
You are simply full of shit.
The "saunas" that are in the 50 C range are steam-rooms. The only steam room I've ever been in was in Europe (Amsterdam), so America-hate is misplaced. A "wet sauna" (properly called a steam room) works differently than a dry sauna, but 50C wet gets a similar physical reaction as 90C dry.
Even more so because of the aversion to nakedness causing Americans to cover themselves with towels or bathing suits, reducing the cooling effect of profuse sweating. Add that they're below the dew point, so benches won't be dry but covered with hot moisture.
That's why saunas are generally wood, and steam rooms are generally tile. And the clothes don't matter when you are in a "wet" environment. Your sweat doesn't help, anyway.
It's an uncomfortable experience compared to a real sauna, and I'm sure temperature sensitive individuals can have a hard time with them.
Your opinion is based on incorrect facts, thus, your opinion is invalid. But feel free to keep hating Americans and fat people. Your hate for everyone (and indifference to fact) would have you fit right in as an American.
Learn to love Alaska
Because people now have less than they did 40 years ago. Back then it was illegal to profit from healthcare, so it was affordable to most people and they didn't die from lack of money. Back then it was possible to pay for college with a part time job, so people without rich parents could still get an education. Back then it was possible for a median-income worker to buy a house. And on and on and on. This idea that the people starving in the streets now are somehow better off than their grandparents who could afford a decent lifestyle with one income per household is ridiculous to the extreme.
It could be a sign of economic collapse. Less spent on electricity might well mean, no money left.
You might want to recheck your bill. Mine shows 19.9 cents/KwH for tier 1 in CA. The tier 1 price changed dramatically on Jan 1st 2017. They decided that the residential high power consumers were paying too much.
American saunas aren't allowed to be sold if they can become 90C or hotter. These are UL regulations. Most manufacturers err on the side of caution and won't make the sauna's temperature go higher than 180F (~80C), and public "saunas" seldom go much higher than150-160F (~65-70C).
I've taken countless hundreds of saunas in both Scandinavia and here in the US, and I can tell you, the two don't compare at all. For the aforementioned reasons: temperature, too high humidity to compensate, and nudity taboos.
Also end-stage capitalism.
Oh, fuck off. Capitalism is why poverty is in retreat everywhere but a handful of countries ruled by kleptocrats.
-jcr
The only title of honor that a tyrant can grant is "Enemy of the State."
You're a bunch of fools. And sheeple.
Unironic use of 'sheeple' wins you one (1) Internet Tinfoil Hat award. Chemtrails.
Oh you were flatly contradicted below, looking forward to your response.
I do not want your cheap brainburning drugs. They are useless for work. And I am a working man today.
Biggest energy saver for me: Never had or wanted children. They ruin everything.
Thanks for not having children. Did your parents warn you? lol.
I do not want your cheap brainburning drugs. They are useless for work. And I am a working man today.
They know that socialism is evil, oppressive and unamerican, they just don't know what socialism actually means.
It means 'place I don't like/people I don't like'.
Similar to 'SJW'.
I do not want your cheap brainburning drugs. They are useless for work. And I am a working man today.
-jcr
Your name goes at the top of the comment mate. This isn't a fucking email.
I do not want your cheap brainburning drugs. They are useless for work. And I am a working man today.
You've obviously not encountered enough of the 'space nutter' AC spastic. If you only saw his diatribes, you'd realise that space is a bad thing and we should all be looking down into the drain.
I do not want your cheap brainburning drugs. They are useless for work. And I am a working man today.
Yeah. 8 years is also, apparently, not worth a wank.
I do not want your cheap brainburning drugs. They are useless for work. And I am a working man today.
Protip: Attic fans don't save energy, in addition to being a potential fire hazard.
My preferred alternative to AC is ice cream! My favorites being New York Super Fudge Chunk and Americone Dream, but I'll eat whatever by the gallon bucket is cheapest at the market if it comes down to it.
PS in my case at least, my temperature preferences haven't changed at all with my weight. I've been as low as 180 and as high as 320. Actually that's not entirely true, before I put on so much weight I kept the house a couple degrees colder.
There are lots of correlations between high wealth inequality and negative outcomes for a society - increased corruption, crime, social unrest, etc. It decreases social mobility, and creates a de facto nobility, which undermines the American value of meritocracy. After a certain amount of wealth is accumulated, the interest earned on simple investment in an index fund dwarfs what can be earned by productive effort.
American society is based on the notion that rags-to-riches stories are not only possible, but achievable with enough hard work and ingenuity. That notion is compromised by increasing levels of wealth inequality, and as it worsens the society comes to resemble a caste system more and more, where people at the socioeconomic bottom will never reach the top, regardless of their work ethic, and people at the top will never crash too low, regardless of how exorbitant and reckless they may be with their wealth. We're not there yet, but all the indicators show that we're moving in that direction.
There’s an urban legend that Albert Einstein once said compound interest is the most powerful force in the universe. This very problem is why the estate tax exists, to limit the power of entrenched wealthy families. And more recently, with the increase of campaign financing, it gives the rich a disproportionate influence over democracy.
So, I don't really care that people are wealthy. All the evidence suggests that wealth and hedonism don't actually make people any happier, and on the whole, if you make a wage that allows for a bit of disposable income, you are probably as happy as money can make you. For some people, Jeff Bezos and Elon Musk, for instance, I'm happy that they are wealthy because they are starting new businesses and trying to make the world better with their wealth. On the whole, though, the evidence suggests that massive inequality is suboptimal for a society in the best case, but sometimes outright dangerous. I'd prefer stability, social mobility, functional democracy, and all the other benefits that come from a relatively equal society.
The Energy Star program has caused manufacturers to lower the energy required by their products so as people replace things such as refrigerators, computers, washers, TVs, and the like they will normally get one that uses less electricity. I just purchased a freezer and it uses 25% less electricity than the previous generation which was made 4 years ago.
It's just too bad that Trump has proposed cutting the funds to the program in his budget. Consumers have saved $Bs because of this program and it costs nowhere that much to run.
Translation: You've cured your cancer, why can't you be happy with your AIDS? You're gonna live a bit longer in slightly less pain while a handful of people literally own billions of times more stuff than you and let their kids spend $100k on a night out with friends every weekend. If we stopped improving the internet at 56k, we wouldn't realize how awesome gigabit internet is. We can have that economically too if people weren't so lazy and complacent to accept what they are given.
I could just as easily point to Somalia as an example of where an unregulated free market will get you. They reached quite a level of business management - when you can actually buy stock in the piracy firm, you know it's a thriving industry. Hand-picking examples that support your desired conclusion is not an honest argument.
By many metrics - self-evaluated happiness, violent crime rate, life expectancy, homelessness rate - the Scandinavian countries are the best of them all right now. They are neither purely capitalist nor purely socialist: They pick out the parts that work best from both approaches, and let them compliment each other.
And thank you for sitting around in one place your entire life, popping out babies left and right and never doing anything of importance or worth.
Capitalism is what makes people poor in the first place. It's a horrible system that only greedy pieces of shit want.
Where is the long life? three out of three, 3-way LED bulbs I've tried have failed in under six months due to the driver circuit - and this was not in enclosed fixtures, but open/ventilated floor lamp fixtures. Tens of thousands of hours of LED life means exactly shit when even CREE and Philips cannot build a decent driver circuit. Also, the lamps cost between $12.00 and $16.00 each.
"100W replacement" (not three-way) LED lamps seem to run around $8.00 - $12.00
"60W replacement" (not three-way) LED lamps seem to run around $4.75ea+ unless going with a cheapass Chinese brand (I presume Utilitech is Lowes' house brand using the cheapest shite they can find?)
And why the hell are all the offerings either fugly "daylight" or crappy old "soft white" - why can I not find a "pure white" offering in an A-style LED lamp? I do not want my light tinted red nor blue; give me a nice neutral white instead of an ancient-incandescent-looking reddish light, or worse or a blue that makes people look sick. Is pure white too much to ask? Why must we have to choose between simulation of crappy old incandescent lighting or a lousy simulation of "daylight?" Lastly, why do LED and CFL lamps not indicate CRI on the packaging?
Yep, hence my questioning his assertion that ceiling fans "often" use 150-watt halogens. I've never seen a single ceiling fan use that type. Sadly it seems he can't be bothered to answer.
The "Do as we say, not as we do" party.