You Can't Open the Microsoft Surface Laptop Without Literally Destroying It (vice.com)

An anonymous reader quotes a report from Motherboard: Microsoft's latest Surface Laptop may have earned glowing reviews from certain sections of the tech press, but don't tell that to iFixit. The company, which provides repair tools and manuals for popular gadgets like the iPhone and PlayStation, has handed the Surface Laptop a score of 0 out of 10 in terms of user repairability, stating definitively that the laptop "is not meant to be opened or repaired; you can't get inside without inflicting a lot of damage." iFixit's detailed teardown illustrates just how difficult it is to open the Surface. For starters, there are no screws, proprietary or otherwise, on the outside of the laptop. Instead, the laptop is literally welded together using a type of "plastic soldering" that is rare to see in consumer electronics. Anyone hoping to get inside the "beautifully designed and crafted" computer will have to pry it open with a knife or dedicated pick in order to defeat Microsoft's plastic welding. Whether or not it's actually worth going through the trouble of defeating said welding is another matter, given that the "glue-filled monstrosity," as iFixit dubs the laptop, has none of the user-upgradeable parts you'd want to see in a PC, like memory or storage.

"It literally can't be opened without destroying it," the repair company concludes. "If we could give it a -1 out of 10, we would," iFixit said in an emailed statement on Friday. "It's a Russian nesting doll from hell with everything hidden under adhesive and plastic spot welds. It is physically impossible to nondestructively open this device."

Comments

It's secure against the Evil Maid attack, then?

[Jeremi]

Well, assuming the evil maid doesn't know your login password, of course.

Not always a bad thing

[Anonymous Coward]

Physical security of the device may be a blessing - leaving it in a hotel room in a politically hostile place would not enable direct access to storage components as on a conventional portable system. Not to say that it is unhackable, but denying physical access is a good first step.

Re:Not always a bad thing

[Anonymous Coward]

good first step.

Just like having a TPM and Intel's management engine, right?

Re:Not always a bad thing

[TWX]

I doubt that Microsoft has created something that's unhackable, and since once a vulnerability is discovered it can usually be exploited through some automated process, it won't take l33t h4xx0rs to make use of stolen devices once an automated tool is in the wild.

My complaint about any device whose storage is soldered on is that if there's a physical fault, it may not be possible to retrieve the contents. And while the goal is for a "cloud" system, where the contents are backed-up, I neither trust the reliability of the network nor the security of the storage provider to ensure that my stuff is both backed-up and remains exclusively mine.

Re:Not always a bad thing

[TheFakeTimCook]

good first step.

Just like having a TPM and Intel's management engine, right?

OMFG!!!

If Apple did this, there would be nothing but screeching and moaning from the death of a thousand ACs, as they fell over themselves in a big internet pile, trying to one-up each other about how HORRIBLE it was, and "Typical Apple" and "See? No Third-Party Repairs NOW", blah, blah, blah.

Tell me you wouldn't.

Re:Not always a bad thing

[PopeRatzo]

Physical security of the device may be a blessing - leaving it in a hotel room in a politically hostile place would not enable direct access to storage components as on a conventional portable system.

Is there anyplace left that's not "politically hostile"?

Re:Not always a bad thing

[JohnFen]

I wouldn't. My reaction to this would be no different if Apple did it: I won't buy it, and I'll recommend against others buying it.

Re: Not always a bad thing

[Anonymous Coward]

Oh fuck off.

Re:Not always a bad thing

[Anonymous Coward]

Just like having a TPM and Intel's management engine, right?

Please tell me you were being sarcastic (??)

Re: Not always a bad thing

[Anonymous Coward]

Wooooooosh

Re:Not always a bad thing

[Anonymous Coward]

If Apple did this, there would be nothing but screeching and moaning from the death of a thousand ACs,...

That's because people actually buy Apple products.

Re: Not always a bad thing

[Anonymous Coward]

Yeah, about 10% of them. Climb out from under that rock and try something other than the kool-aid.

Re: Not always a bad thing

[Anonymous Coward]

It also means the NSA can add hardware at the factory and nobody will ever know.

Re:Not always a bad thing

[Anonymous Coward]

If Apple did this, there would be nothing but screeching and moaning from the death of a thousand ACs, as they fell over themselves .....

With a PC, one can choose this monstrosity or something else. With Apple, you can get the monstrosity .... or nothing. Choice vs no choice within a given ecosystem. How about that.

Re:Not always a bad thing

[Anonymous Coward]

Actually no, this is far worse than any Apple laptop. The Macbooks are marginally more repairable than this piece of shit and they don't come with Windows 10.

I am a PC guy and have been my entire life. I never thought I would ever consider getting an Apple computer until Microsoft shat out Windows 10. Now Microsoft is making crap hardware too.

Re:Not always a bad thing

[Anonymous Coward]

Are you suggesting slashdot has a pro-microsoft bias?

Re: Not always a bad thing

[Anonymous Coward]

Not with ultra sensitive partisan psychopaths like you everywhere, who will literally turn any conversation into a rant about Trump, praise of Kombucha, or an inquiry for cuckoldry.

Re: Not always a bad thing

[Anonymous Coward]

What does that Steve Gibson guy know? Other than being Debbie's big bearded brother, he brings nothing to the table!

Re:Not always a bad thing

[mysidia]

leaving it in a hotel room in a politically hostile place would not enable direct access to storage components

I wouldn't go that far. With the tools, materials, and methods, of a state sponsor, some way to get into it or to get the data off of it can be found - no question.

Re: Not always a bad thing

[Anonymous Coward]

Good one....

Re:Not always a bad thing

[TheFakeTimCook]

I wouldn't. My reaction to this would be no different if Apple did it: I won't buy it, and I'll recommend against others buying it.

You're not an AC; therefore, you are disqualified! ;-)

Re:Not always a bad thing

[Applehu Akbar]

Not to say that it is unhackable, but denying physical access is a good first step.

But then it runs Windows. Now your uncrackable hardware will let in every virus there is.

Re: Not always a bad thing

[Anonymous Coward]

MMMM Little Debbie makes great cupcakes,

Re: Not always a bad thing

[PopeRatzo]

Not with ultra sensitive partisan psychopaths like you everywhere

Are you triggered?

Re: Not always a bad thing

[Anonymous Coward]

Are you saying that 10% market share would be bad? For overpriced and under-performing that's not too bad. Anyway I'm not one of them, was just comparing Microsoft hardware to Apple. Put down your big glass of smug if you can...

Re:Not always a bad thing

[Anonymous Coward]

If Apple did this, there would be nothing but screeching and moaning from the death of a thousand ACs, as they fell over themselves in a big internet pile, trying to one-up each other about how HORRIBLE it was, and "Typical Apple" and "See? No Third-Party Repairs NOW", blah, blah, blah.

I'm a PC fan through-and-through and I think this thing is abominable on many levels, including the fact that this is yet another way that Microsoft is inching towards total control of as many computers as it can get its hands on, and allowing us to rent use only if it pleases them, and opens the gateway to censorship, privacy breaches on a scale previously unimagined, and all kinds of other things.

Plus the guy you were replying to was likely being sarcastic. TPM and IME are also steps towards this "vision" of domination of all computing devices from the ground up. Ultimately the big companies want, without exception, control over all computers whether they technically own them or not. And, by extension, you.

Re: Not always a bad thing

[KGIII]

My house. But I smoke a lot of pot.

Re: Not always a bad thing

[vtcodger]

"It also means the NSA can add hardware at the factory and nobody will ever know."

The factory is probably in East Asia so it's likely not the NSA adding stuff there. That said, the NSA is probably one of the few entities with the resources to prize this monstrosity apart, change something, put it back together, and have it work.

Re:Not always a bad thing

[phantomfive]

I recommend against buying any phone that doesn't allow you to own it.
Unfortunately, that currently includes all Apple phones.

Re:Not always a bad thing

[Anonymous Coward]

The difference is that:
1. MS shit doesn't cost left testicle.
2. MS shills are less interesting to troll, since they don't have brand loyalty.
3. These days we enjoy watching someone being trolled rather then troll ourselves.

Re:Not always a bad thing

[Anonymous Coward]

Blimey, is Apple the only manufacturer of phones, tablets and PCs?
With Apple you can get in iCrap or something else.

Re:Not always a bad thing

[thegarbz]

I'll recommend against others buying it.

Why? It's a laptop. The number of people who actually upgrade their laptops or open them up can be measured in parts per million. I wouldn't recommend or not recommend this without knowing what type of person will be buying it. Otherwise you're making recommendations based on requirements that are not relevant to the end user.

Re:Not always a bad thing

[PixetaledPikachu]

Security? The article is implying that you can crack the laptop open, It's just that you can't put it back together once it's opened

Re: Not always a bad thing

[Anonymous Coward]

Hoo-ah! Another crybaby democrat can't handle the truth!

Re:Not always a bad thing

[sjames]

Not worth much. That makes it tamper evident, not tamper proof. If someone really wants at the storage, they'll cut it apart as required.

Re:Not always a bad thing

[Highdude702]

iPhone 6S. Jailbroken.. I Own my phone. Others with apple products may not.. but my phone answers to me.

Re: Not always a bad thing

[AmiMoJo]

I doubt that the Chinese government is putting anything in there. It would be a really dumb way to spy on other countries. Easy to detect and trace back to them, and indiscriminate.

The NSA demonstrated the correct method. Intercept hardware being shipped inside the US, on its way to the person you want to spy on. Much less chance of someone noticing the malware that way.

Re:Not always a bad thing

[Highdude702]

To be honest if you're unhappy with windows 10, you're better off getting a better than apple laptop spec device and putting a linux distro on it, rather then accepting sub-par performance.

Re:Not always a bad thing

[Highdude702]

Lets face it, Microsoft has always been bad with software. The fact that they think they can be apple with hardware is just going to eventually harm them. Look at that exclusive deal they had with the NFL that had people throwing Microsoft projectiles(surface) around the field. That should have been the first indicator they should stop. If not the short lived Windows Phone.

Re: Not always a bad thing

[Highdude702]

Nope they have become too expensive to enjoy. Just a week or so ago they doubled the price of everything. I loved little debbie snacks.. I will never buy them again. :(

Re:Not always a bad thing

[Highdude702]

Competely understood. my "Cloud Storage" is under my desk. An old i3 custom built pc. Best part is i can setup any sort of secure server i would like and it costs me nothing to maintain.

Re:Not always a bad thing

[AC-x]

The number of people who actually upgrade their laptops or open them up can be measured in parts per million.

It's not just end users though, this also affects professional 3rd party repair shops. What could be a relatively simple fix for minor water damage becomes an expensive "send it back to Microsoft to replace" because it's impossible to open the thing.

It's anti-consumer and it's anti-competitive; Having a monopoly on repairs can only be bad for the consumer.

Re: Not always a bad thing

[Highdude702]

Hopefully you live in one of the places where is has become legal and youre not looked down upon as a criminal for smoking weed. I live in Vegas and we have recently gotten that luxury. and as of the 1st of july will be able to walk into places and buy it.

Re: Not always a bad thing

[Anonymous Coward]

One word: Baseband.

Wait, is that one, or two? Dammit!

Re: Not always a bad thing

[Anonymous Coward]

What happens when your house burns down?

Re: Not always a bad thing

[Anonymous Coward]

He didn't say his desk was in a house, you insensitive clod!

Re:Not always a bad thing

[thegarbz]

this also affects professional 3rd party repair shops

So don't recommend a product to a customer because of some other unrelated business who is quite likely never to get business from the customer in the first place? Seriously what next, don't buy cars because the farriers will go out of business?

It's anti-consumer

It is nothing of the sort. This is very much the exact opposite, a company listening to exactly what consumers wanted: unlimited power, paper thin, and with style. There's a reason Surface, Macbooks, and all the many clones of the designs of both of them do far better in sales than traditional square "you can open this by removing these 30 screws" models, outside of business settings where this stuff is valued of course.

We asked for this. We did so through sales figures promoting products with certain design features. We did so through repair figures showing that few people bought after market batteries. We did so through reviews and through complaints (right here on Slashdot, the biggest complaint about the SP3/4 was not that it was hard to repair but that it wasn't a laptop that could support the weight of the screen on the base).

and it's anti-competitive;

Not giving a shit about 3rd party companies that offer a service that shouldn't be needed is not anti-competitive. Unless companies like Caterpillar are anti-competitive too with their shock proof crush proof water proof everything proof phone design.

Having a monopoly on repairs can only be bad for the consumer.

MS doesn't have a monopoly on repairs. They simply produced a design that is hard to re-close once opened. A repair shop is more than welcome to go out and buy the necessary tools, they aren't proprietary. There's no well controlled pentalobe screws here. It's just hard to open, and that in itself doesn't give MS a monopoly on anything.

My recommendations depend on the requirements of the end user, not some side industry that the end user shouldn't have to use regardless of what he buys.

Re:Not always a bad thing

[JustAnotherOldGuy]

It's a laptop. The number of people who actually upgrade their laptops or open them up can be measured in parts per million.

That's certainly true, but at the same time I don't think the inability to upgrade is what's pissing people off about this kind of locked-down assembly technique.

I think the criticism for this kind of thing is that it prevents 3rd-party repair shops from doing anything with it. It basically elevates Microsoft to the only entity capable of repairing the device if (when) it fails.

Re: Not always a bad thing

[KGIII]

Maine. It's legal but that's never stopped anyone. In fact, it being legal kinda takes some of the fun out of it.

Re:Not always a bad thing

[phantomfive]

Yeah. Keeping it up to date and jailbroken is tough, though.

Re:Not always a bad thing

[nedlohs]

this also affects professional 3rd party repair shops

So don't recommend a product to a customer because of some other unrelated business who is quite likely never to get business from the customer in the first place? Seriously what next, don't buy cars because the farriers will go out of business?

No it would be like not buying a car that has the engine compartment welded shut so that you have to send it back to the manufacturer to replace a broken fan belt. You don't do that because you care about the mechanics going out of business, but because you want the option to use them instead of the manufacturer.

Re:Not always a bad thing

[AC-x]

So don't recommend a product to a customer because of some other unrelated business who is quite likely never to get business from the customer in the first place?

So you can guarantee that someone will never need to have their device repaired, and will not need to use it on battery power once the battery inevitably degrades? Or perhaps you'd be happy to make up the difference in cost if they do?

Seriously what next, don't buy cars because the farriers will go out of business?

The car industry is a good analogy for this - would you be comfortable buying a car with a welded shut bonnet, where if anything goes wrong no matter how minor you have to send it back to the manufacturer and pay to have the entire engine replaced?

It is nothing of the sort. This is very much the exact opposite, a company listening to exactly what consumers wanted: unlimited power, paper thin, and with style. There's a reason Surface, Macbooks, and all the many clones of the designs of both of them do far better in sales than traditional square "you can open this by removing these 30 screws" models, outside of business settings where this stuff is valued of course.

Oh please, spare me your forced sales pitch. They could have hidden screws under the rubber feet to release the keyboard and it would have added just a few grams to the weight here and a few microns thickness there. Sure consumers that haven't yet been bitten by unrepairability don't currently actively look out for it, but no-one is going to not buy a consumer laptop just because it's actually possible to open it. There is literally no tangible advantage to the consumer for this, it is absolutely an anti-consumer move.

We asked for this. We did so through sales figures promoting products with certain design features.

Who? Show me someone who asked for a device to not be easily repairable.

We did so through repair figures showing that few people bought after market batteries.

So your answer is "sod everyone who needs their device repaired because they are in the minority". Classy.

Not giving a shit about 3rd party companies that offer a service that shouldn't be needed is not anti-competitive.

Please do explain how offering repairs shouldn't be needed? Are these devices immortal? Will Microsoft offer a free lifetime warranty for all faults, accidental damage and battery wear?

Unless companies like Caterpillar are anti-competitive too with their shock proof crush proof water proof everything proof phone design.

You seriously picked the wrong example there...

MS doesn't have a monopoly on repairs. They simply produced a design that is hard to re-close once opened. A repair shop is more than welcome to go out and buy the necessary tools, they aren't proprietary. There's no well controlled pentalobe screws here. It's just hard to open, and that in itself doesn't give MS a monopoly on anything.

Oh please, this goes well beyond being "hard to re-close", you literally have to damage the top surface beyond repair to get it open, meaning any time you want to get in there you have to buy another top casing from MS, if they even sell those parts.

Even those damn pentalobe screws are infinitely better as you can use the screwdriver to open as many screws as you like, and you can even reuse the screws afterwards! What an amazing concept, a reusable way to open a computer!

My recommendations depend on the requirements of the end user, not some side industry that the end user shouldn't have to use regardless of what he buys.

Please show me a single person whose end user requirements include "guaranteed more expensive repairs and maintenance".

Re:Not always a bad thing

[Falconnan]

Funny. My very first thought when reading the article was how this was a great way to circumvent the right to repair.

Re: Not always a bad thing

[Brockmire]

Do you live in prison or something?

Re: Not always a bad thing

[Brockmire]

So it'll never break down, use electricity or need updates to remain secure. Cool!

Re: Not always a bad thing

[Highdude702]

So you're saying that cloud backup uses no electricity and never goes offline? We will leave security out of it for now. So price I paid for the computer = 0, amount of electricity used = very minimal as its headless and not used by others, reliability = great, havent had a problem with it yet. but i have a ton of old shit in bins if something was to happen which most was also free. Tell me again what your issue was?

Re: Not always a bad thing

[Highdude702]

Haha! That's good shit. But I personally dont feel it takes any of the fun out of it. Just the risk. Still having as much fun as ever with it.

Re:Not always a bad thing

[Highdude702]

Yea, you're right. But I didn't say it is for everyone. It does allow me more control than I could have with android I feel. And also the Cydia maintainers are pretty good about updating. And its still more secure than a majority of android phones ever could be. I just like being able to do what I want with it. And not what someone tells me I want to do with it.

Re: Not always a bad thing

[Highdude702]

I have, but currently no. And for $1 for a cookie they can go to hell and back. At least with Grandma's Cookies I get 2 and they are tastier also.

Re: Not always a bad thing

[KGIII]

I retired here, ten years ago. Pot was already decriminalized. They've never even taken my plants. It was damned near impossible to get anything but a fine. It was damned hard to get a fine, even. Now, I can have twelve flowering plants. I don't even know how I could smoke all that. I can legally give it away, but everyone already grows pot and we have been giving it away, long before I came here.

The law did not really change our behavior. I grow big ol' plants, right in my garden. I have since I moved here, well before it was legal. You can see them from the road. They are kinda obvious.

Re: Not always a bad thing

[Anonymous Coward]

Or just install Windows 7 and not have to accept sub-par performance.

Re: Not always a bad thing

[Anonymous Coward]

Cookie dough is cheap, makes at least a dozen and they're better fresh from the oven.

Re:Not always a bad thing

[thegarbz]

And that's not an issue at all because fan belts can still be replaced. Again the fact that the bonnet is welded shut is no different to the fact that bolts need to be torqued up to specific torque. As long as there's equipment available to make the repair, and that equipment isn't controlled by the manufacturer the only thing you're complaining about is that a 3rd party repair shop actually needs to invest in tools for his trade.

I'll play the worlds smallest violin for him.

Re:Not always a bad thing

[thegarbz]

So you can guarantee that someone will never need to have their device repaired, and will not need to use it on battery power once the battery inevitably degrades? Or perhaps you'd be happy to make up the difference in cost if they do?

If you're going to make recommendations of 100% certainties then stop making IT recommendations and start becoming an insurance salesman. That would suit your methods far better.

But then you do touch on something interesting. Yes there are many people in the world that I can guarantee will NEVER need to have their device repaired. Not because they don't break their device, but because they simply don't repair it. This is nothing new. There were millions upon millions of people in the past who replaced laptops because they were getting slow and unstable (all it needed was to reformat the drive which Windows was known for), there were millions of people who replaced laptops because they had noisy fans that always seemed to be on (all it needs is 6 screws removed and that blanket of dust blocking the fan cleaned out).

If someone is on their 3rd+ laptop and they've never been to a repair shop, chances are not that they don't need to repair devices, it's that they don't want to, or just plain don't do it in general looking for an excuse to upgrade to the latest shiny because it's 1mm thinner.

Understand your customer.

The car industry is a good analogy for this - would you be comfortable buying a car with a welded shut bonnet, where if anything goes wrong no matter how minor you have to send it back to the manufacturer and pay to have the entire engine replaced?

Welded shut? Quite happy to. Welds are standard parts that are fixed in standard ways. If car hoods were welded shut I'm sure every repair shop will have a welder. Now if opening that hood required a proprietary code from VW that specifically prevented anyone from VW from doing that then you'd have a different story. But in general no I don't have a problem with buying a car that requires someone to own tools to work on.

(Side note I was at the Tesla shop 3 weeks ago looking at a Model S. It would fall under the category of having to go back to the vendor if something goes wrong. I haven't bought it yet, but this concept isn't even remotely going to sway my decision one way or the other).

They could have hidden screws under the rubber feet to release the keyboard and it would have added just a few grams to the weight here and a few microns thickness there.

Next time just write I'm not an engineer. It's shorter.

Who? Show me someone who asked for a device to not be easily repairable.

Don't be dense. The popularity of thin and sleek outweighs the desire for repairability by a long shot. You can see that with the Surface's sales figured combined with the fact that they never got more than a 1/10 on iFixit.

So your answer is "sod everyone who needs their device repaired because they are in the minority". Classy.

Yes. Sod them. There are other companies and other products that feed the needs of those who do. If you want to design by committee to please everyone you will end up with a product wanted by no one.

Please do explain how offering repairs shouldn't be needed?

Same way the warranty got extended on the XBox360 in Australia when the ACCC took MS to court because the Xbox360 was expected to last a generation. See the key word there? Generation. Not immortal. Just long enough to be reasonable. I've had my laptop for 3 years now. If anything even slightly goes wrong with it, it is going in the bin and I'm getting another one. A device doesn't need to be immortal to not warrant repairing. My colleague did the same thing with here phone recently. Cracked screen. I asked if she's getting it repaired and the answer was the contract is over in 3 weeks and then she'll get a new one.

Re: Not always a bad thing

[Highdude702]

That's awesome, I don't have the patience or skills to grow plants with good enough quality to be worth smoking to me and my wife. But what i pay for the quality is more than worth the money so I don't mind at all. I could never do the winters up there. I was born in Milwaukee and moved to Vegas when I was a kid with my dad. Although if I did grow it would give me more money for computers. Glad you enjoy growing though, Seems like a good sport. Stoner Life! As far as being decriminalized its been a small ticket for anything under an ounce here for a few years now, 7 or 8 I believe. I still try to avoid cops at all cost being a felon and all. So I'm very careful no matter what. I do have some good seeds though that i may attempt to grow one day. But as far as the law is out here as I understand it its still not legal to grow your own. But it is legal to give it away.

Re:Not always a bad thing

[AC-x]

But then you do touch on something interesting. Yes there are many people in the world that I can guarantee will NEVER need to have their device repaired.

So because some people treat their computers as disposable you want to force everyone to treat their computers as disposable? Real classy.

Welded shut? Quite happy to. Welds are standard parts that are fixed in standard ways. If car hoods were welded shut I'm sure every repair shop will have a welder.

You keep trying to justify this by saying repair shops just need the right tools, please show me what tool would allow the surface laptop to be opened without damaging the pelt material.

Don't be dense. The popularity of thin and sleek outweighs the desire for repairability by a long shot. You can see that with the Surface's sales figured combined with the fact that they never got more than a 1/10 on iFixit.

Oh please, if even Apple can make their ultra-slim laptop's openable then what's Microsoft's excuse?

Yes. Sod them.

So literally anti-consumer. Thanks for clearing that up.

There are other companies and other products that feed the needs of those who do. If you want to design by committee to please everyone you will end up with a product wanted by no one.

You have utterly failed to show us a single way in which being repairable is worse for the consumer. Glued together tablets are one thing, but if Apple can make premium laptops that are possible to open then why can't MS?

Negative. You can legitimately buy the required welders.

I'm not talking about the weld joints, I'm talking about the glued down pelt surface that has to be chewed up to open it. There's no "off the shelf tool" to undo that damage.

You can't legitimately buy pentalobe screwdrivers without the risk of Apple coming and shutting you down.

Citation needed. I can find a lot of places selling pentalobe compatible screwdrivers, and nothing about any possible legal problems using them. Yes it's a shitty move making you buy extra screwdrivers, but not as shitty as making you destroy the surface of your laptop to open it.

Not immortal. Just long enough to be reasonable. I've had my laptop for 3 years now. If anything even slightly goes wrong with it, it is going in the bin and I'm getting another one. A device doesn't need to be immortal to not warrant repairing.

You can spend up to $2,000 on premium configurations, and you'd be happy to bin it after 3 years?? If my $400 3 year old refurb laptop broke I would probably (if it's not something easy to replace like the SSD) bin in, but if I had spent $2000 on a top of the line laptop I would bloody well expect to be able to get it fixed without being shafted on the repair price. Not to mention that MS only actually give you a 1 year warranty, and I can't even tell if that includes the cost of part replacements.

Right after you show me someone other than a few people on Slashdot and businesses who's requirements include "device must be easily openable for cheap repair".

So because technically consumers don't need cheap repairs, because they can either get shafted on the repair cost from the 1st party or just throw their expensive premium laptop away, that makes being anti-consumer ok does it?

By the way it's a laptop. WTF is "maintenance"

Li-ion batteries have a limited lifespan. Replacing a worn battery is maintenance that all laptops have to undergo sooner or later. If you're happy to throw away a premium $2000 laptop that's up to you, but forcing that attitude on everyone is completely anti-consumer, and the sooner Apple and now Microsoft are forced to stop shitting on consumers like that the better.

Re: Not always a bad thing

[Type44Q]

Dont try using semicolons; you don't know how.

Re:Not always a bad thing

[thegarbz]

So because some people treat their computers as disposable you want to force everyone to treat their computers as disposable? Real classy.

You don't understand the concept of tailoring a recommendation to the customer do you? I mean asking the person before recommending anything has been the centre piece of every reply to you. Should I switch to another language to make it easier to communicate with you? Are you special and can't process thoughts correct? How can I best communicate with you?

I can find a lot of places selling pentalobe compatible screwdrivers, and nothing about any possible legal problems using them.

Yep I can also find plenty of places selling heroin. If you don't understand the history of the pentalobe screw then please go and do some reading.

So because technically consumers don't need

Technically and need have nothing to do with do and want. Which brings me back to my first point. Your recommendation should suit the scenario of the end user or you're simply making a shit recommendation.

Li-ion batteries have a limited lifespan.

*Yawn* Sorry but that has interested precisely 5 slashdot users who hang on outdated problems. Few if any people replace laptops these days due to batteries dying. But sure eventually they will, but we're back to the communication thing. These devices are not meant to be immortal. They are meant to last a few years. You'd know that if you ever consider asking people about their requirements before making crap recommendations.

I'm outta here. You haven't really paid attention to a single thing I have said the entire conversation.

Have a good day.

Re: Not always a bad thing

[AC-x]

You don't understand the concept of tailoring a recommendation to the customer do you?

And you don't appear to understand the concept of consumer protection do you? If there were no consumer protection laws and no consumer advocacy do you think the standard of products sold would be higher or lower than it is now?

Yep I can also find plenty of places selling heroin. If you don't understand the history of the pentalobe screw then please go and do some reading

You made the claim, it's on you to back it up.

Your recommendation should suit the scenario of the end user or you're simply making a shit recommendation.

My recommendation is that we don't support companies who try to lock down the PC industry with un repairable proprietary bullshit. Your recommendation is that they're doing a good thing for consumers.

These devices are not meant to be immortal. They are meant to last a few years

I expect to be able to use a $2000 laptop for more than just a few years, why do you want to turn the PC industry into overpriced disposable garbage?

I'm outta here. You haven't really paid attention to a single thing I have said the entire conversation.

So you lose all your arguments and you can't back your claims up, I'm not surprised running away either.

Re:Not always a bad thing

[Anonymous Coward]

Don't bother arguing. "thegarbz" is some little kid who is a Microsoft shill. You can't reason with that kind of undeveloped mind.

Re:Not always a bad thing

[piojo]

You are conveniently ignoring the fact that whenever a laptop is repaired, a person or organization NEEDS that repair. This isn't bad because it hurts repair shots. It's bad because you can't have your laptop repaired.

They simply produced a design that is hard to re-close once opened. A repair shop is more than welcome to go out and buy the necessary tools, they aren't proprietary.

Did you just make that up? There are no tools that debond friction-welded plastic, and heat-resistant glue typically cannot be removed except by grinding.

Re: Not always a bad thing

[TheFakeTimCook]

Dont try using semicolons; you don't know how.

Actually, I do.

https://writing.wisc.edu/Handb...

Clause 1: "You're not an AC"

Clause 2; "therefore, you are disqualified".

In fact, you most often see semicolons used before a "therefore, ...", "however, ...", "but, ..." or "because, ..."

In the linked-to authority, this would be analogous to their example: " I like cows; however, I hate the way they smell."

"However" essentially == "Therefore" in this application. one is like an OUTER JOIN of two ideas or phrases, and the other is like an INNER JOIN, if my limited knowledge of SQL syntax serves... (pardon if I botched that analogy).

If I would have used a COMMA in my original comment, like I (assume) you wanted (since you didn't favor me with "corrected" version of my comment; but rather, just a snarky (and incorrect) remark), that would have been a "comma splice".

Don't fuck with me on semicolons. I use them often, and use them for good grammar; not evil.

Re:Not always a bad thing

[nedlohs]

I'm not complaining about anything in fact. I'm just refuting your ridiculous argument that recommending products that will be cheaper to repair must somehow be motivated by a desire to protect third party businesses rather than out of a desire for personal convenience.
,
The ease of access to the brewer unit was a significant factor in my selection of coffee machine, if I was making a recommendation to someone else that would likely be a factor in that too. The ease of access to the motor of my table saw was similarly a factor in my selection of table saw and recommendations of them.

It is truly amazing you that think the only possible motivation for that could be a desire to protect unrelated businesses.

Re:Not always a bad thing

[Mikkeles]

'... would you be comfortable buying a car with a welded shut bonnet, where if anything goes wrong no matter how minor you have to send it back to the manufacturer and pay to have the entire engine replaced?'

You're talking about the SmartCar, aren't you?

Re: Not always a bad thing

[Anonymous Coward]

I'm legitimately curious why you feel a device that has to be hacked to allow customisation would have better customizations than an os that's designed to be customized... (Especially if that Android device was also rooted)

user repairability

[turkeydance]

is that a "thing"?

Re:user repairability

[Anonymous Coward]

Yes.

Re:user repairability

[Hognoxious]

I've worked in user support and I'd say no. Most of them have defective firmware that prevents any form of updating, even with a very large stick. Better to chuck them away and get new ones.

Re:user repairability

[tomxor]

get off my lawn...

Re:user repairability

[TWX]

Even if it's not user-repairability, IT shops for sufficiently large organizations like being able to fix devices when they're damaged, or at least being able to retrieve user data.

We've basically migrated away from one vendor because they promised us portable computers that were serviceable and that there'd be parts availability. Instead we got portables that used a lot of adhesives, had a lot of integration where ports were on mainboards such that damage to ports would destroy the mainboard, and where parts were available they were extremely expensive and very slow to arrive. As a result we re-evaluated and switched to a different vendor, and in the eval process we disassembled machines and saw just how good claims of repair and reliability were. We ended up with machines with connectors on inexpensive and easily-replaced daughterboards, with modular storage, and with inexpensive replacement plastic housings. It's still expensive if a screen gets smashed, but if someone drops the laptop/convertible-tablet with a USB flash memory stick plugged in we don't necessarily have to replace the whole computer. We can replace a daughter-card with the USB and power input ports for $50, replace the broken bezel surrounding the keyboard for $30, not have to buy a $500 mainboard etc.

Re:user repairability

[Anonymous Coward]

To me it is a huge thing. For example, clean water was accidentally spilled on a lenovo laptop. It was a small amount but enough to ruin the keyboard. Few days and $13 later new keyboard was installed and working perfectly well. Instead of throwing away perfectly good laptop, it is still working and will be working for at least few more years. And it was relatively cheap - under $1000. I would take user repair-ability over portability any time. I don't need to show people my superiority by sitting at Starbucks with a mac book or surface. I actually need to get the job done and need to concentrate while doing it.

Re:user repairability

[tlhIngan]

is that a "thing"?

Only to two people - hobbyists (where time is no issue) and iFixit's CEO.

And really, iFixit's CEO is in it for the money to sell parts and tools than any repairs. You can tell because they won't warranty their stuff. It is a big deal because if they want Joe Schmoe to repair their stuff they need to contend with stuff like warranty fraud which is already huge today. If you ever wonder why Best Buy returns desk is always so annoying, well, try dealing with people who return "it wasn't dropped into water, honest!" product that's leaving a pool of water on the counter. And this is today.

Imagine tomorrow after some guy tries to IFixit his laptop, breaks the circuit board and then returns it as "it just stopped working".

Apple's "proprietary screws" at least offer an intelligence test - if you're smart enough to buy a screwdriver from iFixit, you're probably at least smart enough to know your way around and not muck it up. And if you do muck it up, chalk it up to experience and not try to fraudulently get a replacement.

Re:user repairability

[TheFakeTimCook]

We ended up with machines with connectors on inexpensive and easily-replaced daughterboards, with modular storage, and with inexpensive replacement plastic housings. I

And the best thing is, it's only 4 inches thick, and 16 inches wide for a 13 inch version!

Surprised you could find any laptop with such antediluvian packaging. Do you realize just how much extra labor those are to build, and how much less of a computer you get, because it still have to be reasonably-priced with an assembly cost of $20 per unit?

Does it have a 486 in it, too?

Re:user repairability

[JohnFen]

Sure. I repair laptops every so often. I just repaired my daughters, which is about a year old.

Re:user repairability

[SuperKendall]

Great for IT, absolutely horrible for the poor bastards that have to use the laptop.

I wonder how many will leave when given these "laptops". Or just ignore the one you provide and use a MacBook.

Re:user repairability

[I'm New Around Here]

Considering the user gets told "Sure we can fix that and get it back you tomorrow", as opposed to "Sorry, your laptop is going to be out of service for at least a week", I'm sure the users are much more content than you would think.

Re: user repairability

[Anonymous Coward]

Fascinatingly, my experiences with large organizations are contrary. Take for example my current employer. Somewhere around 75,000 PC systems, around half of them and growing notebooks, and when something breaks our IT staff are not allowed to open the case, period, even if it can be opened. The machine is swapped out with a spare or replacement. No repairs. The drives are pulled by a centralized office, regular IT people are not allowed to touch non-server hardware.

Re:user repairability

[Anonymous Coward]

1. People looove their assigned gear. They will bitch and moan to no end if their ten year old laptop with missing keys gets replaced. Users like the familiar.

2. People quitting because they don't like their company laptop. What insane, entitled world did that thought come from? That's far, far off the deep end.

Re:user repairability

[FudRucker]

RE: "Great for IT" if this trend keeps going soon most the IT will be looking for another job.

Re:user repairability

[dbarclay10]

What vendor did you end up going with? (I ask because I like the sound of that for my own laptop, and I'm not shy about paying for it.)

Re:user repairability

[l0n3s0m3phr34k]

Pretty entitled users who would just quit their job over the laptop issued to them. And if the company is doing network security correctly, good luck getting non-approved devices into the corporate network. MAC-based access lists, certificate-based VPNs, port monitoring...sure, you might be able to get to the Internet via the guest wifi, but the VLAN won't let you go anywhere else. I would just close any tickets on it and cite whatever Computer Use policy the company has against connecting non-business systems to the internal network. Complain if you want, here's a waiver you can sign saying you will be held personally financially responsible for any network disruptions, incursions, malware, etc that occur from your BYOD system.

Re:user repairability

[TWX]

Surprisingly it was Dell. Don't remember the exact model off of the top of my head though. Even more amusingly the rep thought that the storage was soldered-on and swore up and down that it was not modular; when we opened up the machine we found that it was removable. That meant we could buy all units with the 128GB option and can just upgrade after-the-fact to larger storage for those few users that need it.

Re: user repairability

[TWX]

I guess it's just dependent on how your organization is structured.

We have around a hundred facilities, I'd guess around 40,000 devices, at this point majority portables. We have perhaps eighteen regular desktop support technicians and a smattering of interns and other staff that do desktop support. There is a depot with dedicated staff for bench service but management has opted to use field-service where possible to reduce the need for loaners and the associated property-control paperwork headaches when tracked assets are moved around, especially when specific budgets paid for specific assets, or specific accessories like docking stations go only with certain models.

The depot guys often end up with the worst cases to fix, or to declare dead and then cannibalize for any few remaining good components. They're also the ones that attempt to solder when ports and other connectors get broken-off the all-in-one mainboards, so sometimes a unit with a dead port and no viable parts supply can be returned to service. They additionally do component-level repair for monitors for our few desktop computers, usually the ever-building supply of LCD panels with bulged and leaking capacitors, and sometimes they get to do UPS battery changeouts and recertifications when the PC-side is slow.

Re:user repairability

[Obfuscant]

I just repaired my daughters, ...

So you fixed them yourself instead of paying a doctor. Good on 'ya.

Re: user repairability

[Anonymous Coward]

I guess he's got you beat then at least, going by how bitter you seem and your inability to spell "tentacle".

Re:user repairability

[TWX]

Users complain no matter what. Users lie too. These both must be considered when planning and implementing widescale IT policy.

In my experience it does not take a long time for users to get used to the replacement computer. It's usually within a matter of hours if the OS version remains the same, or a matter of days when the OS version changes. It takes longer for users to grow accustomed to the OS changing on the same machine than it takes for users to grow accustomed to a new machine with the same OS version.

The only times I've seen significant pushback is when software that they have used is no longer available. This is generally only a few users and generally only specific cases, and usually that software's functions are being migrated to another product.

Re:user repairability

[aberglas]

The other 99.9% of people do not care.

And Apple makes money. So if Apple does something it must be the right thing to do, and all the other MBA run manufacturers will follow suite. Make it a sealed product. (In this case MS has got ahead of Apple.)

Re: user repairability

[Anonymous Coward]

My IT department will just throw it in the trash and have a new one loaded in less that an hour. Win Win.

Re:user repairability

[SeaFox]

I just repaired my daughters, ...

So you fixed them yourself instead of paying a doctor. Good on 'ya.

Hey, he's the original manufacturer...

Re: user repairability

[vux984]

Not that surprisingly. They actually make lot of great hardware. The support isnt bad, and the driver download pages etc are some of the best out there. Punch in the service tag... vs some of the insane hoops you need to go through just figure out what model is sitting in front of you.

They make some really awful stuff too, but if you avoid the consumer crap its mostly quite good.

Re: user repairability

[Anonymous Coward]

I came close to quiting a job over the stock laptop provided by the company. I run ram- and cpu- data analyses, and couldn't believe it when they handed me a 10 yr old dell with 4gb of ram. It took months of arguing to be allowed to use a non-standard high performance machine. People will quit if they can't get the hardware they need to do their job, and they see their career sinking as a result

Re:user repairability

[Voyager529]

I just repaired my daughters, ...

So you fixed them yourself instead of paying a doctor. Good on 'ya.

Hey, he's the original manufacturer...

I'm pretty sure his (ex) wife/girlfriend is the original manufacturer. He's an outside vendor who provided half of the source code.

Re: user repairability

[Anonymous Coward]

Hey I have an CS degree! They teaches me useful stuffs like when's I gots ta use a and an. Also they'd be learning me how's to insult dumb dumbs online with no an CS degrees.

Re: user repairability

[I'm New Around Here]

Sure, a blank Windows load, with default apps, and let the user spend the next week customizing it like they had their old one. How perfect!

Re: user repairability

[Anonymous Coward]

People still buy stuff from that store? I thought that was just where you would go to test the new product you were about to order from new egg.

Re:user repairability

[eddeye]

Ah, so you're the jerk who does my office's IT purchases. Thanks for sticking us with the largest, heaviest, most unwieldy and least portable laptop known to man. That part was bad enough - but the sharpened corners is just mean. :P

Re: user repairability

[I'm New Around Here]

Thank you for giving the one corner case where that would make sense. Also I heard several Nascar drivers threatened to quit because they were given 10 year old cars to drive.

Re:user repairability

[I'm New Around Here]

One site I support frequently doesn't even have an open guest wifi. You need to request permission, and the support desk will respond to the employee sponsoring you (for me that's the local IT team) with a login and password.

Re:user repairability

[freeze128]

It also scores a 0 out of 10 for Technician repairability. That means you CANNOT repair it, only throw it away. If you live on Earth, that should matter to you.

Re:user repairability

[sheramil]

I've worked in user support and I'd say no. Most of them have defective firmware that prevents any form of updating, even with a very large stick. Better to chuck them away and BUY SOMETHING DIFFERENT NEXT TIME.

fypfy

Re: user repairability

[Anonymous Coward]

User machines should have data on a server. Not only locally.

User machine BACKUPS are to recover apps and and state of the machine.

If you are not doing both and you have no local backup policy (and the surface has a alot for a 200+GB uSD card. (Doesn't get easier), you have decided your data is worthless.

Re: user repairability

[Anonymous Coward]

Are IT people prohibited from (while on paid time) clearing the waste baskets and driving to the local dump to dispose of recyclable paper? IT time is valuable. Even if the IT meat robot is not.

Your organization has a contract that lets them tell XYZ to so it on a zero incremental cost. Be grateful that it isn't you.

Re: user repairability

[KGIII]

Hold on...

Soldering?

I owned my own company, for years. I'm retired. I don't think I overpaid my staff, but I paid well. Even in the 90s, I'd have kinda been pissed about a tech doing that for COTS hardware. It wasn't even remotely cost effective then. How can it be that way now?

Throw that shit in the trash, send it back, take it home, whatever. The time they would have spent repairing that, instead of doing something productive, was not even remotely cost effective. Am I missing something? Hardware is much cheaper, today. There is no fucking way, I want a tech soldering, unless it is really valuable and out of warranty.

I have to be missing something. If it can't be fixed in a half hour, and it's just a standard computer, do not fix it. That's a half hour of real time. I know damned well you don't need to watch it while you re-image it. Err... Some free time is allowed for Doom or Quake.

Seriously, you have people soldering commodity hardware?

Re: user repairability

[Anonymous Coward]

And why should this be bad? IT weenies are some of the worst people you can be forced to work with. The less we have around, the better. I remember with glee how we got rid of the "network experts" when Windows made setting up a network a simple click-through process. They couldn't realize what was happening. It's going to happen again, and again, and again.

Re: user repairability

[troon]

The boy has a cheapy tablet (Hipstreet Pilot) on which I am about to perform a second screen replacement, as he's a bit careless. The first screen replacement cost me £15 (under $20) and took about 30 minutes because I was being careful and methodical as I had no instructions.

Re:user repairability

[Anonymous Coward]

You just presumed John's sex.

Re:user repairability

[Hognoxious]

Unfortunately we don't buy users yet. But give the Trumperor a second term and who knows, maybe we'll get rid of that pesky 13th amendment.

Re:user repairability

[Altrag]

So what you're saying is that you "stole" $987 from that poor laptop manufacturing company? You bastard!

Re: user repairability

[Anonymous Coward]

You have busy times and you have quiet times. Time is effectively free if you're sitting around with nothing to do. And no, that doesn't mean you have too many people - you need to be able to cope with the peaks.

Fancy motherboards can easily cost 200 bucks. It might take a tech half an hour to do the repair mentioned including dismantling, which he'd have to do anyway. Are you paying them 3 grand per day?

Your claims that you used to be Bill Gates are bullshit.

Re:user repairability

[Hognoxious]

all the other MBA run manufacturers will follow suite.

The ones from DeVry will. Alumni of proper schools like Wharton will follow suit.

Re:user repairability

[aberglas]

+1

Re:user repairability

[thegarbz]

is that a "thing"?

It is with the right expertise. It's not necessarily expensive either. Users just don't see a #0 Philips screw and assume that a device can't be repaired. Have a look at some videos of people replacing cracked screens for $5 by carefully removing OLED films from them and then gluing the resulting mess back together.

Re:user repairability

[gnasher719]

It also scores a 0 out of 10 for Technician repairability. That means you CANNOT repair it, only throw it away. If you live on Earth, that should matter to you.

Many things that "cannot be opened" can be opened when you have the right tools. For example, Apple offers an "out of warranty" repair for phones and tablets where you pay have the price of a new device, get your device exchanged, and your old device will go straight back to the manufacturer where it can be refurbished or recycled for parts.

Re: user repairability

[I'm New Around Here]

The user folders are probably kept on the server, for when they are in the building. With a full local copy for when they aren't. But I doubt they do system state backups of 1000+ laptops every night.

You might consider your data worthless without full-time redundant backups across multiple servers at multiple redundant offsite storage farms. But I'm sure other companies figure out what the worth of the data is, and what the worth of the server farms is, and what the worth of the actual procedure is. And then they chose how much worth to spend money on.

Re:user repairability

[AmiMoJo]

It looks like even the SSD is soldered on, so it's more like

"We can have it fixed by tomorrow, but all your data is gone..."

Also, after 18 months

"Sorry, the battery warranty has run out and you can't get a third party replacement because fitting it destroys the machine."

Presumably battery replacement cost is the same as a buying a new one.

Re: user repairability

[Highdude702]

That's Ray's Cyst.

Re:user repairability

[Highdude702]

Sometimes you seem rather intelligent. And then you end up Full Retard by the end of the day. You don't have to act this way, no matter what your worthless friends tell you.

Re: user repairability

[Highdude702]

Well when its filled with porn and song lyrics and crappy games. it is worthless.. Which is probably most of slashdot users "backups"

Re: user repairability

[Anonymous Coward]

Not sure if you got the memo but we don't bother correcting minor spelling errors anymore. The vast majority of errors you see are the result of autocorrect choosing the wrong word. So relax.

Re: user repairability

[TWX]

I suppose this is a good point. I've been knocking around getting an XPS13 Developer Edition, it would be nice to have a model that Linux is entirely supported on, but with the price point coming in closer to $2000 than $1000 it's hard for me to justify it.

Re: user repairability

[TWX]

Problem is, technology like Folder Redirection is not perfect and can break without making it terribly obvious to users or administrators that it's broken. IT admin thinks that user profiles are synchronizing, users have been told that their stuff is being backed-up, but it hasn't worked for a couple of months and now the user's machine dies and it turns out that their stuff was not backed up.

Seen it firsthand.

Re: user repairability

[TWX]

Heh. Given the stupid rule changes imposed by NASCAR I bet many would be happy to drive the chassis from a decade ago.

Re: user repairability

[TWX]

We soldered caps when the entire of the line of Optiplex GX270s had bad caps. Had to change three or four per box. Times about 8,000 machines. Was cheaper to fix than to replace.

We solder caps on LCD panels. Takes about ten to fifteen minutes to do, caps cost almost nothing, monitor is fixed and pumped-back into the supply.

When you have 40,000 machines to take care of it makes sense to do some component-level repair, when that component-level repair can be done in-volume and with repeat, routine procedures. Same as when we fix our 4000 printers and 300 copiers, it makes sense to fix when volume makes up for the peculiarities in a given repair.

Re: user repairability

[TWX]

It also helps keep the old guys entertained. We have guys that did component-level repair back when it was routinely necessary, so they're good at it and they enjoy it. Why no indulge when it helps with workplace morale?

Re:user repairability

[TWX]

We found a sale on files, we felt we needed to use them somehow.

Re: user repairability

[KGIII]

LOL We leased our print room. We also had a whole lot fewer desks. ~225 desks.

Re: user repairability

[KGIII]

You moron. LOL I'm not Bill. In fact, people pretty much know who I am. I have had a number of people, from this very site, in my home. I have met a bunch more. Not having someone sitting there soldering components was factored into the budget. 'Snot happening, unless it's *really* important.

Re:user repairability

[Reziac]

I'm reminded of the time a friend called me to repair her Mac. Overheating due to a dead PSU fan, easy fix, right?

Except that the PSU was riveted shut AND riveted into the case. Well, I guess we won't be replacing that after all; I suggest you leave the cover open and set a desk fan to blowing on it...

Re: user repairability

[Hognoxious]

Found the ITT grad!

Re: user repairability

[TWX]

Yeah, the whole IT department is almost a hundred people including helpdesk, software developers for internal applications, software/application support, network, cable infrastructure, depot repair, field repair, device redeployment, copier and printer service, etc.

At times various functions were outsourced, and at our size it was always both slower and more expensive to outsource. Inevitably a preferred-vendor starts milking the relationship and regardless of how good the relationship is at the beginning it's shit within two to five years. Within the department we can usually keep on staff when they start underperforming.

Re:user repairability

[TWX]

At least rivets can be drilled-out.

Sounds like you weren't up for some drilling that day.

Re: user repairability

[KGIII]

The closest we ever came was building our own hub, with memory for buffer, to attach to a plotter, so that we could actually push more than one job at a time. Err... I think that might have been in 1993?

I don't recall any staff doing more than replacing. There was always busy work, if needed. I also didn't care a whole lot about them being unoccupied. So long as the job is done, it's good enough for me.

Then again, at the time, tech was moving so quickly that it was sound finance to upgrade. I am not sure how I'd approach it, where I still involved. I'd probably let them decide, truthfully. I was pretty hands-off, and I hired them for a reason. They did things that I could not.

Re: user repairability

[Anonymous Coward]

I would quit if a company made me work on a windows system. Nothing against windows just that all the tools i need work and are supported better on *nix. It would be similar to asking a developer to run a MS stack fully on wine. this extends to hardware in so far there should usable drivers for *nix and reasonably high performant,.. if a company can't spent the what is in effect my few days salary on getting me the gear I need to do the job then i can't see how i can work there

Re:user repairability

[Reziac]

Actually thought about it (wouldn't have been my first PSU so assaulted), but would have required a drill designed by a contortionist, extreme care next to the mainboard, and probably a complete disassembly ... looked less than promising.

Re:user repairability

[Anonymous Coward]

tell us who it is!

Re: user repairability

[Anonymous Coward]

you're a fucking retard

Re: user repairability

[I'm New Around Here]

Yes, but you guys are missing the point. Saying it would be stupid for someone to quit a good job just because of the laptop provided by the company, is not talking about people who have to use a specific setup for their job. It is talking about people who use their laptop to go online for various websites, send and recieve email from vendors and customers, type up documents and make presentations, and other general office work. Not someone programming for specific systems, and certainly not the " ram- and cpu- data analyses" to be done on a 10-year-old system.

Context is important, but you have to make the effort to understand and accept the context that is implied in general statements.

Re: user repairability

[I'm New Around Here]

fucking your mother, retard.

Re:user repairability

[RockDoctor]

Presumably battery replacement cost is the same as a buying a new one.

Plus shipping.

Re: user repairability

[Anonymous Coward]

Um... how long do you think it takes to solder a port or connector back into place...?

Breaking news!

[thegreatbob]

Consumer-hostile company does consumer-hostile thing!

Welcome to the late-to-end-stage of the throwaway economy.

They copied Apple too much

[Anonymous Coward]

Price -- copied
Look -- copied
Specs -- copied
Repair-ability -- 1 upped
Usability -- WIP

Re:They copied Apple too much

[Anonymous Coward]

> Repair-ability -- 1 upped

"Hold my beer"

-Apple

Re:They copied Apple too much

[Anonymous Coward]

Next apple mac-thing will shoot for repairablilty of -1.

Re:They copied Apple too much

[I'm New Around Here]

Spring-loaded shrapnel bombs under the bezel?

Re:They copied Apple too much

[Megane]

Don't joke about it. I was reading today about a microwave oven that had a switch, which if put in an "unnatural" position, would short across the mains power. Yes, WTF. I guess they really didn't want teenagers to be able to defeat the door interlock and run it with the door open.

Bad headline

[93 Escort Wagon]

I suspect most people reading a headline stating "you can't open laptop X without destroying it" will not interpret that as meaning "open the case for repair or upgrade".

I open my laptop all the time... it's the only way to type on the keyboard and view the screen.

Re:Bad headline

[thegreatbob]

Headless computing is all the rage these days... get with the times, mate!

Re:Bad headline

[Anonymous Coward]

Welcome to Slashdot, News for Pedants.

Re:Bad headline

[whoever57]

Headless computing is all the rage these days... get with the times, mate!

I tried that, but I am having trouble doing anything without my head.

Re:Bad headline

[Hognoxious]

vnc ftw!

Re: Bad headline

[Anonymous Coward]

Thats how i read it. I was picturing some badly engineered hinges.

Re:Bad headline

[I'm New Around Here]

I have seen that destroy a laptop. Thankfully we talked the manufacturer to cover the repair under the warranty.

Re:Bad headline

[Anonymous Coward]

Well, that's what you get from buying a product with the iFixit score of -1. Like a Russian nesting doll from hell, it will disassemble you.

Re: Bad headline

[Anonymous Coward]

Nerds are autistic pedants, what's new here? One of the reason it's so fun beating them up and tormenting them.

Re: Bad headline

[Corbets]

You've been watching too many highlander reruns!

Re:Bad headline

[blind biker]

I suspect most people reading a headline stating "you can't open laptop X without destroying it" will not interpret that as meaning "open the case for repair or upgrade".

Most people? Really? Why do you assume most people to be that dumb? maybe you're projecting.

Re:Bad headline

[Phunction]

That's funny, the people at Microsoft have obviously mastered that ability.

Literally

[Anonymous Coward]

Only appy apps can literally repair the surface without destroying it, unlike un
skilled Luddites who wouldn't buy this shit in the first place.

Literally!

Re:Literally

[sexconker]

It's LUDDITES , you fool.

At least...

[hcs_$reboot]

must be waterproof!

Re:At least...

[Anonymous Coward]

You must be new to product design...

Re:Cool story, bro.

[Anonymous Coward]

stop shitposting bitch im a marine if i ever meet you ill beet your fucking ass

Copying Apple

[ilsaloving]

Okay Microsoft, we get the point. You really wanna be like Apple. You can stop copying Apple now, thx.

Having one major computer vendor with a user-hostile hardware division is more than enough. We should be DIScouraging this behaviour, not encouraging it!

Incidentally, has there been any progress on those 'right to repair' lawsuits I've read about?

Re: Copying Apple

[Anonymous Coward]

Apple keeps enough lobby.money flowing to prevent any "right to repair" legislation from even being considered.

Re: Copying Apple

[Anonymous Coward]

"right to repair" -> "right to demand manufacturers to give you the tools and documentation necessary so you can build a business around their products"

Re:Copying Apple

[TheFakeTimCook]

Okay Microsoft, we get the point. You really wanna be like Apple. You can stop copying Apple now, thx.

Having one major computer vendor with a user-hostile hardware division is more than enough. We should be DIScouraging this behaviour, not encouraging it!

Incidentally, has there been any progress on those 'right to repair' lawsuits I've read about?

That's far beyond anything Apple has done, or likely will ever do. In fact, it's just plain stupid. They have literally turned a pseudo-laptop into a disposable lighter!

For one thing, if nothing else, APPLE wants to be able to repair their own stuff, and that ridiculous industrial packaging design would preclude even that!

Nice job, Microsoft! Hope you are handing out lifetime warranties with that POS.

Re:Copying Apple

[Anonymous Coward]

Jealous much? So far; try as they might; apple has failed miserably at making an unrepairable laptop. Good for MS. Leading the pack.

Re: Copying Apple

[kurkosdr]

Why is this bad? If a small shop down the road is taking advantage of some "right to repair" legislation to provide repairs for devices the manufacturer doesn't care about anymore or demands exorbitant amounts of money to repair them, where is the bad thing in providing the owner a way out of this? My sister's iPod Nano had a broken power button, and the Apple shop people said they could only replace the whole device at the same cost as a new device (srsly). A third-party repair shop fixed it for pocket change.

Great for taking a shit.

[WolfgangVL]

Bestbuy offers the i7, 16g, 512GB SSD for $2199.

Assuming the battery will last 2 years, that's 91.62/mo. with no extras or failures.

That's 200 soft tacos, or 5 cases of cheap beer. Every month, for 2 years.

I've owned a few surfaces so far. Handy tablets for taking a shit, but the AC adapters are all so horribly designed that they fail within a month or 2. A few warranted replacements before that expired. I eventually went with the cheapo Chinese off brand and its solid and 10% the price.

Within 6 months the magnetic keyboard attachment point for the expensive keyboard stopped working 9 out of 10 times it was attached, and it began missing keys. I never use it anyway, so never got it fixed.

Pro 2 had the exact same problems as the 1, AND the internal SSD went shithouse RIGHT after the warranty expired.

I'll never buy another Surface. They require repairs that simply cannot be done.

But like a I said, great for taking a shit.

Re:Great for taking a shit.

[TheFakeTimCook]

But like a I said, great for taking a shit.

...ON!

Re:Great for taking a shit.

[Anonymous Coward]

Wow, you have had bad luck.

I've had a personal Surface Pro 2 - it is being decommissioned this weekend. My wife has been using it after I moved to a Surface Pro 3 when they came out. Yesterday our Surface Laptops showed up. I am typing this on mine. I just moved my Surface Pro 3 downstairs as my test / toss around machine. At work, I have many machines. Among them Surface Pro 3, Surface Pro 4, and Lenovo X1 tablet. The Lenovo keyboard plastic alignment pins broke off the day I got the thing. The Surface devices are fine. No problems with the keyboards, no problems with the AC adapters. Oh, the Surface Pro 2 battery did go out about three months back. But it was pretty old by then anyway.

Re:Great for taking a shit.

[bongey]

'A few surfaces', the surface has been out for only 5 years, surface and shitters don't mix.

Re:Great for taking a shit.

[Anonymous Coward]

I used a Surface Pro 3 for the last two years... my experience was actually quite different from yours. Battery is still nearly as strong as it was when I got it new (compared to my a Dell XPS bought around the same time, that now can't be unplugged for more than about 45seconds, or my wife's same era MacBook Air that needed it's battery replaced due to swelling). Absolutely no problem with the AC adapter... early on I replaced the cord that goes from the brick to the wall outlet with a longer one. At some point, I got an email letting me know that they had a recall on that part - was that where you had your problem? Post-recall redesign may have fixed it, or just spend the $1.95 to get a generic one on Amazon.

Keyboard let me down once or twice, but only for a second - I got some crud in the keyboard connector area. 3econd fix, remove keyboard & wipe away crud... then make a mental note not to set the tablet down on chips from the lathe (again).

I thought it was a great little computer. Wife's MacBook fan died, so she's using it now.

Re: Great for taking a shit.

[KGIII]

I feel kinda bad. I have an SP3, that is still in the box. I bought it to install lubuntu. I didn't.

Re:Great for taking a shit.

[nuckfuts]

... the internal SSD went shithouse RIGHT after the warranty expired.

I had a graphics chip fail on a Lenovo ThinkPad once. (Motherboard replacement required). To my surprise, they let me retroactively extend the warranty. (Of course I didn't mention the hardware failure until after renewing the warranty). Later had a Dell laptop repaired after retroactive warranty extension. Sometimes it pays to ask.

Re:Great for taking a shit.

[Anonymous Coward]

Meanwhile, over here in Europe: if the device fails within 5-10 years (depending on country) and it's not the user's fault, he can demand a replacement or his money back.

Re:Great for taking a shit.

[Anonymous Coward]

I had a graphics chip fail on a Lenovo ThinkPad once. (Motherboard replacement required). To my surprise, they let me retroactively extend the warranty.

Joke's on you: Lenovo had a manufacturer replacement program for those (Nvidia on T61) and would have done the replacement without you springing for a warranty extension. So your dealer cashed in on the warranty extension without actually having to pay anything out of their own pocketses.

Re: Great for taking a shit.

[Wolfrider]

--It's the weekend. How bout installing Lubuntu on it? :b

/ haven't seen you around in a while, glad you're still here

Re: Great for taking a shit.

[KGIII]

I am. It's a bit of a long story, but I survived. My journal has a post about it.

Re:Great for taking a shit.

[thegreatbob]

Still better at crap-removal than the textureless paper they put in most public restrooms.

Re:Great for taking a shit.

[TheFakeTimCook]

Still better at crap-removal than the textureless paper they put in most public restrooms.

And the sharp corners are good at cleaning out those Diverticulitis-Pockets in your lower intestine...

yes then they would lose out on $649

[citylivin]

M$ is not stupid. They read the apple playbook and took a page out of it. All surfaces are not repairable really. You have to send them to microsoft and pay $649. they have a really slick website set up to do this making it a painless process.

I still like my work provided surface because i dont have to pay when it breaks. We have about 10 of the devices and every 6 months or so someone cracks the screen on one costing $649.

Sucks, but they are super useful when you are out and about so its just a cost of doing business for us. Executives love them. Any field tech will probably agree as well.

Re:yes then they would lose out on $649

[TheFakeTimCook]

M$ is not stupid. They read the apple playbook and took a page out of it.

No they didn't.

This is what is called "Conspicuous Consumption". Like disposable lighters.

Apple would never do this; because they wouldn't want to TRASH that much hardware when a unit comes in for warranty repair.

So no, NOT out of Apple's playbook. More like out of Bic's.

Re:yes then they would lose out on $649

[Anonymous Coward]

Executives love them. Any field tech will probably agree as well.

I think you meant "Executives love new toys." As a field tech, I want my hand tools, my network tools, my software tools and a full blow laptop with full keyboard, dvd/cd rw, hdmi, vga, many usb ports, wifi, rj45, serial and though I can live without it a parallel port. It's not what the laptop does by itself, it's how I need to connect to whatever I might have to fix.

Re: yes then they would lose out on $649

[Anonymous Coward]

What's wrong with disposable lighters? They're great. I like to toss them into fires.

Re:yes then they would lose out on $649

[Anonymous Coward]

The Bic disposable razor is great though, I believe it's way more efficient than Gillette and such stupid crap. No mechanism to attach the "head" to the handle, much cheaper handle, fewer blades, about 20x cheaper. This makes the non-disposable razor an elaborate ad-supported scam!

Irresponsible in 2017

[Anonymous Coward]

In this day and age I consider disposable non-repairable goods to irresponsible on the part of the manufacturer.

Reduce, reuse, recycle. 2 out of 3 just got harder.

Re:Cool story, bro.

[Calydor]

Did you run out of carrots?

English motherfucker

[Brockmire]

Destroyed != damaged. Learn the difference, fucking idiots. And when to use "literally" appropriately.

Re: English motherfucker

[Anonymous Coward]

Are the idiots literally fucking the mothers?

Nothing new

[thegarbz]

Every device in the Surface line has scored a 1 or below on iFixit.

Then there's the guy who upgraded the SSD in his Surface Pro 3 by cutting the side of the case out.
http://surfacepro3ssdupgrade.b...

Re:Nothing new

[sexconker]

This is neat, but if you scroll through the comments you can see precisely why they want to ban all laptops, tablets, etc. on flights.

Re:Nothing new

[viperidaenz]

I read the comments. Didn't see why

Re:Nothing new

[thegarbz]

I know. Someone wrote in another language. Scary shit.

Re:Nothing new

[sexconker]

If you see something, say something.
Even if you don't understand what you saw.
Stay safe, citizen.

Re:Nothing new

[thegarbz]

Makes me want to report Trump. I mean human skin isn't naturally that colour.

Why did you go through a 3rd party article?

[cpotoso]

Why did you go through a 3rd party article? Shared ad revenue? Why not directly linking to ifixit in the first place????

Right back at you

[sobachatina]

Irreparably damaged == destroyed

They are describing a situation where if you open this laptop it will never go back together as a laptop again.
That would, in fact, be "literally" destroyed for any reasonable interpretation of the word.

Re:Right back at you

[Anonymous Coward]

Never go back together? Did they stop making glue?

Re:Right back at you

[Anonymous Coward]

No, but clearly they stopped making brains shortly before you were conceived.

Re:Right back at you

[Anonymous Coward]

Is that your way of insulting me for being older than you?

Re:Right back at you

[Anonymous Coward]

Solution 3d printed replacement body.

Re: eat my piss M$ CIA MIT niggers

[cant_get_a_good_nick]

Trump is going to bring about a new rise in Muslin culture

For me it's not so much the muslin, but the Linen suits he's been promoting....

Re: Cool story, bro.

[Anonymous Coward]

You look absolutely radishing!

Not cool

[markdavis]

Consumers need to know this and punish device makers like this by not buying it and telling them WHY. If you use it a lot, the battery will be shot in just a few years, rendering a very expensive device to the landfill. It is one thing to not have a "user replaceable battery", and another thing to make it difficult, but quite another universe to make it impossible to replace the battery.

First manufacturers lock things down to prevent people from installing their own OS or trying to "unlock" it so that at least they can root it so they can get full control over what they bought. And now this?

Re:Not cool

[duke_cheetah2003]

If you use it a lot, the battery will be shot in just a few years, rendering a very expensive device to the landfill.

This is where I become sad. I am in the electronics recycling business and it's sad times to see manufacturers making devices in such a way that they will never be viable for re-use, by design. So much for striving for sustainability. So much sad. This is wrong on so many levels, I really wish people would look at the big picture when considering purchasing one of these abominations. I don't give a flying F how well it works, when you design something so no one can fix it, you are broken and flawed and need to go away.

It's up to the IT departments that buy this shit to make a statement. You're either for sustainability, or you're not. This product is a slap in the face to sustainability.

Re:Not cool

[Jetstream]

Exactly what I was thinking. As a matter of fact, I'd like to see a separate post discussing what could possibly be done to change the whole business model of the electronics industry as a whole. The world really needs to move back toward devices & appliances that are more viable for the long-term - devices that are much more easily repairable & upgradeable, and definitely move away from the "replace & throwaway every six months" mentality.

Re:Not cool

[Anonymous Coward]

I very seriously wonder if this would really stop them. I have gotten the strong impression, from the "enhancements" so much software has had (to the point that the OS is spyware) that the computer companies are essentially coming to try to remove all self-determination from the user, essentially making these devices dumb terminals that access services that they control. Which means they basically control you, when modern life is factored in, and intend to make certain you have no alternative. For "security's" sake I fear what they might do to enforce this.

Re:Not cool

[sims 2]

Related in companies destroying industries.

Most video sales are very rapidly moving to digital copies i'm starting to see more and more stuff that is digital only that you can't buy physical copies of.

We thought blurays were going to eventually replace dvds but it looks more like online video is going to kill them both before that happens.

This is a problem.
You pay the same amount for a digital copy as you do for a physical copy and while it doesn't get lost (unless the company goes under) or damaged you also can not lend, trade or sell your copy often times you can't even watch your copy offline it's yours permanently with a physical copy you may have been able to buy a blueray set for $30 watch it then sell it to one of your friends for $15 lowering your own net expense.

Second hand sales seem to be theft to the industry possibly of the same level as piracy.

They are doing a very very good job of destroying the used video industry by making sure no one has discs to sell.

As for related to your post.
Why are they making so many laptops now without a hard drive door? It's only the 3rd most replaced part after the battery and keyboard.

Re:Not cool

[Anonymous Coward]

Last night my neighbor takes out a flat-screen TV to the curbside trash. "What should I do with this?", he says. I reply, "I think you're supposed to take it to the city twice-annual electronic recycling event." He says, "I'll just get my tools and break it up and hide it in the trash. I'm not an environmentalist. I don't give a shit."

Re: Not cool

[KGIII]

Consumers do not care. Really, they don't.

Re: Not cool

[markdavis]

>"Consumers do not care. Really, they don't."

Only when they don't know or understand. The moment I explained some of this about certain phones to some people, most seemed horrified. But yeah, many didn't care because they couldn't understand how/why/who would have a phone for more than two years. Even so, a little different with a laptop.

Re:Not cool

[Anonymous Coward]

This makes me sad too, because I live on this planet too, and this is just a waste and inexcusable waste of natural resources.

Re:Not cool

[thegarbz]

And now this?

And now this what? One of the thinnest and lightest fully featured laptops can't be opened due to special construction techniques? What's the outrage?

Consumers do know this. They actively asked for this. Consumers are the reason these devices are manufactured the way they are. This has absolutely nothing to do with locking down devices to prevent them installing their OS (anti-consumer). This is all about providing exactly what consumers have been asking for. I mean FFS even on Slashdot the biggest complaint about the Surface was not it's size or it's construction, but rather that it couldn't be used as a full laptop ... until now. *ALL'Y'ALL* asked for this, and MS listened (pro-consumer).

Re:Not cool

[thegarbz]

Exactly what I was thinking. As a matter of fact, I'd like to see a separate post discussing what could possibly be done to change the whole business model of the electronics industry as a whole.

Abandon the designs consumers want in favour of designs based around severe compromises like those provided by traditional laptop manufacturers that are quite clearly not as popular?

The industry and business model aren't even remotely the problem here. It's physics and consumers.

Re:Not cool

[Anonymous Coward]

According to the psychopaths in companies, sustainability is not a priority.
They'll rather pillage and spoil every inch on the planet, rather than pay the real costs of their ideals.

Re:Not cool

[Tom]

There are two drivers here. One is that yes, they don't like people picking apart their stuff, or repairing it themselves if one small part somewhere is broken. They'd rather want you buy a new one or send it to them for a more expensive repair / replacement.

But the other is that as things get smaller and thinner and lighter, some of these options are simply there for that purpose. Glueing things is easier, cheaper and lighter/slimmer than screwing it. Soldering chips on is cheaper, thinner, etc. than adding sockets. And so on.

There was a nice article many years ago when everyone cried about the non-detachable battery of the first iPhone, that this decision was largely driven by design and instead of a "screw you" attitude it was a "we don't care if you want to change it or not" attitude. Someone lifted the "it has to be detachable" restriction off the design team.

So malice or not, that is still the question. At the extent this particular device is locked down, I'd say there is a good part of "we don't want it opens nicely" involved, yes. But that's a matter of the degree of lock-up, not the mere fact by itself.

Re:Not cool

[markdavis]

>"So malice or not, that is still the question"

Well, ultimately it doesn't matter the motivation, just the result. Consumers end up with products they can't really own, control, keep alive, or repair. When the industry moves completely in such a way, consumers have no more choices. It is sad and frustrating. It is also annoying that so many companies are desperate to clone what other companies are doing without really offering a wide variety of choices, assuming that all or most consumers all want the same thing.

Re: Not cool

[KGIII]

If they cared, so many things would be different. Hell, if they cared, they probably wouldn't use Microsoft or many Apple products. When was the last time Average Joe replaced his own keyboard? Average Joe is kinda a moron.

Re:Not cool

[duke_cheetah2003]

Just touching on the video market topic you stepped in.

I personally like where the video market is going. Moving everything online is great stuff. No more discs cluttering up my house. No more factories making all those discs we have to put somewhere. No more transporting CD's over oceans and roads, consuming fuel. Ever move a box of CD's? Those things are HEAVY in quantity.

Video going to virtual goods is fantastic for sustainability. So no brownie for you.

Re:Not cool

[sims 2]

I really like having online acess to all my movies and videos.
It's easy it's convient.
However if I own the copy I should at the absolute very least be able to download a copy of my purchased media.
We can do this with music we can do this with games why can't you do this with videos?

Oh sorry even though you paid for it we don't trust you with a downloadable copy.

The pricing needs to be updated to reflect the loss in value or they need to give that value back by either allowing you to download stuff you own or allowing you to resale stuff you own.

Hey if they really hate the market they could just offer like a 10% refund if later delete the video from your account.

So I suppose they are actually killing off more industries than I even thought of in my post.

They are killing off the second hand market, the physical disc market, the entire industry that makes the discs and the industry that makes the disc cases.

There is no way hosting all those movies indefinitely costs even remotely close to making all of those discs yet there is no discount.

Re:Cool story, bro.

[Anonymous Coward]

Did you run out of carrots?

Now be nice. He's a Marine.

He can't help it. They don't install extra brains in that model.

Good Headline - for this site...

[SuperKendall]

I suspect most people reading a headline stating "you can't open laptop X without destroying it" will not interpret that as meaning

Your meaning never even occurred to me when I read the headline.

By Nerds, for Nerds, remember?

If you can't have that kind of an exception of a Slashdot reader, well...

Re:Good Headline - for this site...

[CanadianMacFan]

I knew what was intended but I did think that it could be interpreted that by lifting the screen your laptop would be destroyed. It is an ambiguous headline and if it was on a non-technical website I'm sure that many people would be confused.

Re:Cool story, bro.

[Anonymous Coward]

Relish the moment!

High security

[Anonymous Coward]

The inability to open the case and get inside makes it harder for bad guys to insert tracking and keylogging devices. This might be a good laptop to take through airport security in China, for example. If only it came with a more secure OS...

Re:High security

[Anonymous Coward]

They'll do it in software, leveraging one of the tens or hundreds of exploitable bugs and backdoors in Windows (which are readily packaged in easy to use kits). Or they'll use phishing emails.

And if you really are such a high value target, they'll lure you with money and chicks.

One thing the Chinese will NOT do is surreptitiously opening laptop cases at airports to install HARDWARE keyloggers inside them.

You Can't Pry Open the Microsoft Surface Laptop Wi

[blibbo]

Headline correction with same word count

Re: You Can't Pry Open the Microsoft Surface Lapto

[blibbo]

Slashdot, really? My comment title can't be as long as your story title?

You Can't Pry Open the Microsoft Surface Laptop Without Destroying It

Why not link direct to ifixit

[Anonymous Coward]

Instead of sending traffic to a alt-left website?

Not Sure This Is A Dealbreaker

[Anonymous Coward]

I get why iFixIt wouldn't like this, but does the average buyer really care? These tablet-y laptops have a lot in common with smartphones; they get used as appliances. When they break the owner simply buys another one, which will be better.

When I want to buy a serviceable computer I buy a desktop or a laptop. There's no way I'm going to assume that a tablet or smartphone is serviceable; those things are so bloody thin that structurally, something has to give. Either the tab/phone bends under pressure, or it gets machined out of solid aluminum & glass, or it gets filled with epoxy.

MS

[Anonymous Coward]

POS

Re: Cool story, bro.

[Anonymous Coward]

He's a jarhead. Filled with preserves. In his granny's root cellar.

outrage-monger

[Anonymous Coward]

Everything in the OP is written to incite anger. They're trying to make readers outraged that these devices can't be opened.

Who cares? It does not matter at all. Not one whit.

May as well be a block of opaque epoxy

[Anonymous Coward]

What a piece of crap. I can't believe I spent all the time I did working on Sunrise Point ULT, just to have it embedded in some piece of Microsoft crap that, if some OTHER part of it fails, the whole thing just gets tossed in the e-waste bin. Jerks. WOULD NOT BUY.

Re: You Can't Pry Open the Microsoft Surface Lapto

[Anonymous Coward]

You can't pry open the Slashdot comment without destroying it.

Re: Cool story, bro.

[Anonymous Coward]

At least he's not putting junk in her trunk.

Right to Repair

[goombah99]

Well, that sort of puts the Right to Repair arguments to rest. No doubt people will still whine about apple but this takes it to a new level.

Re:Right to Repair

[Z80a]

How can you make this even worse? Epoxying the whole thing? An encryption that have the decryptor program stored on a ram chip on the battery that wipes itself out when you try to open the device?

Re:Right to Repair

[thegarbz]

Right to Repair is not about making sure devices can be disassembled. It's about ensuring that parts are available and that replacing the parts doesn't cause some lockout. There's nothing in the arguments saying that a device needs to be repairable without an ultrasonic spotwelder or without a BGA reflow oven to remove parts.

No one really has complained much about Apple either except for that issue with the error caused by swapping out the TouchID controller.

Right to Repair != Ability to upgrade components. We bitch about the latter a lot.

Re:Right to Repair

[Anonymous Coward]

Exactly. No need to bother worrying about R2R laws if you make the thing unfixable in the first place.

Re:Right to Repair

[Anonymous Coward]

I think the key difference that many will miss here is microsoft can't repair this device, it's not just you. That being said, I'm willing to sacrifice repair-ability if it makes my laptop lighter and thinner.

Kudos to IFixit

[FudRucker]

thanks for the info, i will be sure to avoid this product in the future because i do like to buy gently used laptops and clean the dust out and upgrade the RAM, and harddrive to SSD, and since this thing is a brick i wont be buying one new or used

Re:Kudos to IFixit

[viperidaenz]

I'm sure Microsoft will miss your $0 you may have given them buying a second-hand Surface.some time in the future.

Re: Cool story, bro.

[Anonymous Coward]

Doug Funny is that you? How has Patty Mayonaise been?

How does this mesh with Microsoft's Green vision?

[Anonymous Coward]

Microsoft goes to great lengths to peddle the image that they are "eco friendly". But then again don't all the corporate slime?

How does making a completely disposable computer mesh with the (faux) Green agitprop which they market?

Ripe for a Note 7-ing

[Solandri]

Locking owners out of the device sounds great for manufacturers (owners have to pay for expensive repairs or buy a replacement). Until a component that's normally trivial to replace turns out to be defective and fails catastrophically. And a recall which should've cost about $25 per device ends up costing several hundred or several thousand dollars per device.

Re:Ripe for a Note 7-ing

[SeaFox]

And a recall which should've cost about $25 per device ends up costing several hundred or several thousand dollars per device.

Nah, they'll just pull the same maneuver all companies do.
  - Deny there is a widespread problem until lawyers get involved.
  - Drag out legal proceedings for several years.
  - Come out with a settlement once the plaintiff class gets tired of fighting.
  - Make providing proof of purchase a requisite to claim the settlement

(Remember, it's been several years since those devices were sold by this time. How many people have have gotten fed up with the product and replaced it already so they can get work done, and still have the defective hardware, the original box, or can still put their hands on the purchase invoice if they didn't get it online?)

Even if we get past all this the settlement will be far less than the actual damages.

I had an early Sony DVD player that was poorly designed for internal cooling. The high heat caused the optical pickup to wear out. Got it fixed myself the first time at an authorized repair shop (device was out of warranty, so it was a three-digit repair bill). Went out again a year later because the thermal design issue is still there. I bought I cheap Chinese player to replace it. Issue eventually went to court on class action years later. Got notified of the settlement. The offer was "up to $30" towards repair/replacement product. My replacement DVD player has been $27 at Wal-Mart and I didn't have the box from the Sony to furnish proof of ownership in the class. So I lost out. Still that was only $30 settlement on a repair that had cost me over $160 to have done before. Sony made out like bandits on their mistake.

Shill Alert

[Anonymous Coward]

Tell me. When you finish kissing Nadella's ass, does it taste like curry?

Re:Shill Alert

[JediJorgie]

Screw you.. someone having a good experience with a product you don't like doesn't make them a shill, but calling them one does make you an ass-hat.

I am on my 4th surface device. Surface RT, Surface Pro 1, Surface Pro 3 and finally a refurbished Surface Pro 4. None of them were perfect, but I used them daily (mostly with the keyboard and a Logitech TrackMan Marble). With the exception of the SP3 power brick that was replaced under warrantee, I never had any trouble with the hardware. None of them were perfect but except for the underpowered integrated video SP3 Wi-Fi sleep issues that were finally fixed with a driver/firmware update, I have no real complaints about them. I use my devices 4 to 6 hours a day, mostly with the keyboard like a traditional laptop and I have not had any issues with the keyboard showing wear or not working.

Re: Shill Alert

[Anonymous Coward]

If you had no complaints, then why did you have to buy so many?

second reason not to buy it

[Anonymous Coward]

the first is it runs Windows.

Who would buy that?

[Anonymous Coward]

"Who would buy something you can't upgrade?"

"Why would you want to spend money on that when you can spend less and build your own?"

"How stupid is it that you can't upgrade components yourself?"

Copied and pasted from every Apple product thread on Slashdot EVAR!

Well...

[Anonymous Coward]

It didn't stop iFixit from still trying to sell you all the tools.

People don't understand Microsoft.

[Anonymous Coward]

People think Microsoft is a software and hardware company. It isn't. Microsoft is an ABUSE company that merely uses software and hardware to deliver abuse. -- My opinion, shared by others.

Re:People don't understand Microsoft.

[steveb3210]

Oh Abuse? I came here for an argument.

Re: People don't understand Microsoft.

[Anonymous Coward]

Lol ... In hope people get this, otherwise, I'm too old

Re:People don't understand Microsoft.

[skovnymfe]

No you didn't.

Re:People don't understand Microsoft.

[steveb3210]

I most certainly did.

wish I could afford a 10

[Anonymous Coward]

I had to buy laptops on the cheap a while back. When my daughter dumped sugar into the keyboard (a lot) I wished for a laptop that I could just undo a couple screws and pull out the keyboard and clean it. Unfortunately, you have to take this particular laptop completely apart before the keyboard section will come off. It's almost glued/welded together but not quite.

If I can ever afford another laptop, I will have to check out ifixit's site and see if they give any laptops a good rating.

On the other hand, why don't companies deliberately aim for 10s.. I know a lot of people would never dare open a laptop but I'm not one of them.

Re:wish I could afford a 10

[Anonymous Coward]

"On the other hand, why don't companies deliberately aim for 10s"

Well actually they are deliberately aiming for 0. As such this is a success. This has to do with
a) planned obsolescence
b) the right to non-ownership.

''No User-Servicable Parts Inside''

[westlake]

I know this is anathema to the geek. But consumer electronics has been headed in this direction since the invention of the transistor.

You see it as well in the evolution of the automobile, major appliances home maintenance and so on. Compare your granddad's household repair kit to your own --- or read through the 200 page back issues of Popular Science from the 40s and 50s to be found searching Google Books. Learn how to replace the sash weights of a double-hung window. The perils of ladder work at twenty-five feet.

Re:''No User-Servicable Parts Inside''

[russotto]

Learn how to replace the sash weights of a double-hung window.

Why the hell would you ever replace the weights? The cords, yes, but the weights last a lifetime. Of course if your window is reasonably new it probably has springs instead.

Need more info...

[JediJorgie]

We need more info. Just because iFixit could not figure out how to take it apart nondestructively dose not mean it cant be done. Remember they are the same guys that couldn't get the cover off the Rift sensor/camera with out damage and all it took unscrewing the mounting post.

Don't get me wrong, they do a great job, but they are flying blind.

Particularly bad for a surface

[nate11000]

This is particularly bad for a surface because, while they are pretty and functional, they are also designed for horrible reliability. everything breaks. Particularly bad offender is the power adapters on these things. You can't fix it yourself, but hey, Microsoft will repair it for you at the low, low cost of ~$600+.

1-hour machine swap

[tepples]

How about this? "Sure we can fix that. Here's a refurbished unit today. After you put in your password, all your applications and repositories will be restored within the hour."

Re: Cool story, bro.

[Anonymous Coward]

All the best buns were already made, try to ketchup.

ridiculous...

[Anonymous Coward]

I got a $1 LED-lighted balloon and I was pissed because it was plastic welded (so I could not really replace the battery and put it in a new balloon)... I can't imagine getting a computer like that.

Microsoft

[Anonymous Coward]

Keeps finding new and better ways to suck

iFixJoke

[Anonymous Coward]

Ifixit is a team of iDiots.
I stopped paying attention to those tools... ðY after they gave the surface a lower score than apple for pretty much the exact same disassembly, but Ms used metal screws and Apple used plastic screws.
They clearly have a hardon for Apple.

Defcon

[Anonymous Coward]

Sounds like a great defcon challenge

Not bad if they're cheap enough

[istartedi]

I could never fix TTL chips or discreet transistors either. If surfaces end up as $0.25/unit for less than a dozen and $0.20/unit for a dozen to 100, and $0.18/unit for quantities over 100 in the catalog, then I have no problem with this.

Those dirty motherfuckers.

[viperidaenz]

Hang on, I can't replace the CPU, RAM, storage or battery on my phone either.

Rofl

[Anonymous Coward]

The fucking m$ shill tears here ... omg delicious...

I am russian

[Anonymous Coward]

And I feel offended by this statement.

Check your privilege.(anyone who disagrees is obviously a racist)

tech press reviews suck...here's why...

[Anonymous Coward]

1) they only review the item in a new state. So anything that might explode/fail after 2 weeks still gets 9/10.
2) they usually get their tech for free from manufacturers. The pressure to give 9/10 to keep said relationship is too high.

Re:tech press reviews suck...here's why...

[Anonymous Coward]

Damn i forgot 3 which isd of course pretty much the article.

3) they have absolutely no regard for modularity / repairabilty of item they review. Privately of course they would drone on about how much they respect the environment. When it comes to the tech they review they do not care if the item lasts for a couple of months and then goes to landfill because it is just unrepairable junk.

Future TSA Security?

[Whooty McWhooface]

Considering the bans that are rolling out on devices larger than a smartphone, could this allow you to take your laptop/tablet device along with you in your carry on luggage?

It would be one way to be somewhat easily verified that no bomb components have been installed in the case.

So what?

[Anonymous Coward]

Lots of devices do not have user-serviceable parts inside. Why is it so important to you to play repair technician? Don't you have better things to do with your life? The time when computers where big boxes full of lego-style crap inside you could - or even had - to swap out with your hands are long gone. I fail to understand why anyone should want to submit to such a stupid and time-wasting exercise. Do you believe this would put you back "in control" of things? You never were to begin with. You want to play with stuff, buy a toy like the Raspberry and assorted crap. We like real computers, real tools to work with. We're not children or autistic child-men. Grow up. The world has changed. Catch up.

Re:So what?

[roc97007]

Because it's more non-repairable junk destined to be toxic landfill in a few months. I for one decline to participate in that process.

disposable electronics

[roc97007]

When I hear of stories like this, I'm reminded of the disposable gadgets in blister packs displayed at the register. Made to buy, use for a short time, and then throw away. Kind-of the opposite of innovative or boutique. That's ok, I didn't want one anyway.

And do you know why?

[MadMaverick9]

Because companies refer to people, who buy and use their shit (actually: not buy but rent, since we do not really own any of their shit no more), no longer as CUSTOMERs but as consumers.

Big difference.

And airlines are no different ...

Bottom Line

[kattisch]

Good reason not to buy it.