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'Chiropractors Are Bullshit' (theoutline.com)
From an article on The Outline, submitted by two readers: If you're one of the approximately 80 percent of Americans who have suffered from back pain, you may have been referred to a chiropractor for medical help. In the modern-day internet landscape, you'll find chiropractic celebrities like Dr. Josh Axe (1.7 million Facebook followers), Dr. Billy DeMoss (20,000 Facebook followers), and Dr. Eric Berg (472,000 YouTube subscribers) giving advice that goes beyond managing spinal issues. Both in their offices and on social media, chiropractors have adapted to a marketplace that's demanding more than just pain management: they extol the virtues of an "alkaline diet," tell you how to manage stress with detoxing, and wax scientific about the adrenal gland. [...] Chiropractic care, I'm sorry to say, is little more than the buffoonery of a 19th-century lunatic who derived most of his medical theory from seances. It has not evolved much since its creation. Chiropractic beliefs are dangerously far removed from mainstream medicine, and the vocation's practices have been linked to strokes, herniated discs, and even death. Chiropractors can't replace your doctor, and I'm amazed that they're still even allowed to practice. [...] Though some chiropractors are now making an effort to introduce evidence-based practices into their treatment, chiropractic as a whole hasn't evolved like other areas of medicine -- with hypotheses, experimentation, and peer review. Instead, it was birthed by a strange combination of hocus pocus, guesswork, and strongly held religious beliefs.
I do just fine with my foam roller and inversion table.
sig: sauer
it helps me! I went to a chiropracter and now my lupus is healed! At least I think my iridologist said it was lupus...
I used to go to the chiropractor for my back. It hurt, but afterwards I felt better.
Then I started massage therapy instead. I felt better, and it didn't hurt, either. Win-win.
Now I just go sit in the sauna. Just as effective, much cheaper. Win-win-win. All win for me.
"First they came for the slanderers and i said nothing."
Dr Josh Axe to Gwyneth Paltrow. I'm sure they would get along famously.
But.
Mmmmm... your complimentary x-rays indicate we'll be needing to see you twice a week for three months to, ahem, straighten you out.
Happiness in intelligent people is the rarest thing I know.
Ernest Hemingway
They would get the same or better benefits from a professional masseuse, as demonstrated by the studies linked in the article, plus hundreds more. They also would have significantly less chance of death.
Whoever opined that doesn't know their head from their anterior gluteus hole.
Lots of people are happy to spend money on something they believe to be of value. Recreational spending has a kind of placebo effect.
If you want to spend money on chiroquacktors and hoaxopathy, by all means, do. It's a free country.
Did a show by that name a decade ago as I recall.
Just ask anyone who could barely walk into the Chiropractor's office, and walk out pain-free with a smile.
Chiropractors may be effective at giving temporary relief for back pain, so if you just want the pain to go away for a few days they may be a good solution. But they likely aren't fixing the underlying problem, and there is no evidence or plausible mechanism for fixing your digestion and curing cancer by popping your back.
I wish the masses would get as worked up about alternative medicine as they currently are about alternative facts.
which claims to be the largest chiropractic college in the world. They claim they can cure cancer and the common cold with spinal subluxation. Of course chiropractors are fraud.
If you treat them like highly skilled masseuses, then they’re pretty damn good. Before I moved away from SC, I used to get amazing massages there with students about once a month for a good price.
Can't wait to divorce you! Just biding my time honey.
Calling Dr.Bob...
http://www.webmd.com/hypertension-high-blood-pressure/news/20070316/chiropractic-cuts-blood-pressure#1
March 16, 2007 -- A special chiropractic adjustment can significantly lower high blood pressure, a placebo-controlled study suggests.
"This procedure has the effect of not one, but two blood-pressure medications given in combination," study leader George Bakris, MD, tells WebMD. "And it seems to be adverse-event free. We saw no side effects and no problems," adds Bakris, director of the University of Chicago hypertension center.
Not all chiropractic is bad.
My GP is cross-trained to perform chiropractic adjustments.
Once, I was unable to straighten my back due to nerve entrapment and possibly bones actually not lining up; this may have to do with being rear-ended a while back, but that’s immaterial to the conversation.
A few agonizing back-rocking movements with a pillow and a fist, and two neck-twists, and I was physically capable of straightening without grinding bone against bone. Add a shot of some kind of potent muscle relaxant, and suddenly I’m capable of straightening my back.
Perhaps the best approach is to incorporate the evidence-based portions of chiropractic methods into a traditional clinical setting like my GP has done? I guess I’m suggesting that we don’t throw the baby out with the bathwater, pretty much. Sometimes the problem really is a subluxation, after all, even if they’re not responsible for the majority of human illness.
This article spends almost its entire length going on and on about things like alternative medicine, but almost nothing about the actual resolution of back pain, except with respect to children (which, the article acknowledges, is not something all chiropractors endorse).
I don't buy into any of the nonsense, and my chiropractor doesn't either, but he uses the Impulse tool which doesn't hurt when it makes adjustments and I leave feeling much better than when I arrived. Before making any adjustment, he massages the back muscle to loosen it up and prevent damage. He's given me exercises to strengthen my back muscles to help keep things in alignment--and they work to the point that I go back about once per year when I do something really stupid and throw something completely out of alignment. He specifically said in my first appointment that if I'm coming back twice a week for years, he's not done his job properly.
Several years ago when I popped my scapula out of place while stretching and pinched a nerve (8-9 on the pain scale, didn't sleep a wink that night), the chiropractor put it back in place and the sharp stab instantly became a dull ache that went away after a few days.
I fully accept the idea that there are con artists out there who do the things mentioned in this article. I do not accept that it is universal or that chiropractors are incapable of providing any benefit whatsoever.
I don't pretend to know all the in and out of medicine but I have learned one very important thing: chiropractors make you feel better for a day but a physical therapist will help you fix that which is causing you pain. A physical therapist may have you do a certain exercise every morning or some jazz but it prevents you have having painful issues later that would send you crying to a chiropractor.
Anons need not reply. Questions end with a question mark.
If someone is able to walk they can hang from a chinup bar or perform some yoga moves to address their pain. Chiropractic may not be BS in that some people like to be "adjusted" but, it is not a science-based medical treatment.
In all seriousness:
I don't know about the diets they extol, or any other homeopathic remedies they might have,
It's in the summary, so you should. And it is clearly bullshit on the order of anti-vax conspiracy theories or "foodbabe" bullshit. Because why stick to one type of bullshit if you're already a professional bullshitter?
Just ask anyone who could barely walk into the Chiropractor's office, and walk out pain-free with a smile....I know people who've been really happy after their "adjustments."
Good, but that's anecdotal like you can easily find for qigong or crystals. Actual evidence suggests very slight help for a small number of problems. If the people who were barely walking in had chronic lower back pain and were happy and pain free afterward, it was in their head, and they'd be better off doing core exercises probably.
They may be mostly hokey, but so are the alternatives. There's often no quick universal fixes for back problems, period. But the back is kind of like TV reception on old-fashioned sets (and sometimes cellphones): the weather, time-of-day, antenna position, and position and quantity of viewers can significantly affect the reception.
Experimenting by moving the antenna, furniture, and viewers around can at least temporarily fix TV reception. We called it the "fix-it dance" and "air Twister" back in the day. (Steve Jobs and Woz once rigged a college TV to screw with viewers using the idea. They gave themselves away by laughing too hard at posing victims.)
Chiropractors are "experienced fiddlers" who do the fix-it-dance with backs.
Table-ized A.I.
Anecdotes are not data, etc...
However I screwed my back up something awful by pulling a sledge load across a floor - exactly what you NEVER should do - and a chiropractor had me walking and feeling not nearly as painful after one visit. After 3 visits I was "cured". That was 12 years ago, been fine ever since.
So it worked for me. However, as you point out nobody should be expecting them to cure cancer or diabetes or acne or any bullshit like that.
Just like code smells, there are quack smells, and with chiropractors your quack smell needs to be on high alert.
I've had one who was outright incompetent, and another who was scamming for expensive x-rays to diagnose a neck shape 90% of the modern population has. The three hot chicks at reception was my first clue (they supervise a very nice neck-therapy gym). Singapore Airlines does not hire younger.
The gym was free for a while after your first visit. I noticed the Chiclets receiving "engagement" coaching from a high-energy, type A chiropractor on staff (and apparently a permanent gym rat). They seemed to think it was all a big game.
I've also had some pretty good chiropractors. One who was effective at short term relief (about six visits per year).
But then another who treated the same problem differently, and now I'm down to about two visits a year for that region.
I still have other problems, but I'm especially tall (long in the back to be precise) and I've also got some cervical degeneration.
Like anything else, if people blindly enrich the quacks, there will ever be more where that came from. (This ancient observation did us a whole lot of good curing the spam problem, didn't it?)
Chiropractic college (in Canada) is no cakewalk. There's a lot of good ones out there. But until they have an established clientele, the incentives are almost universally aligned to an initial sequence of six visits per new patient, just to get you normalized (and properly prepared to learn about your next problem).
I've often found two visits, about a week apart, to be more cost effective than one visit, if I need it badly enough. Beyond that, the extra sessions are primarily revenue visits. But that's just my own experience, relative to my own needs, and the practitioners I've dealt with.
Bottom line, you've got to deploy your own quack smell. Accept no substitute or new car smell.
Exactly, I am one of them. I used to have chronic back pain. Eventually I got to a point when I could barely sit on a chair for 10 minutes. So I went to see a chiropractor.
He guessed scoliosis and checked with an x-ray. I got significantly better on day one. I went there about three times a week for about a month. I still go every month or so.
Never had back pain anywhere near I used to have for 10 years before.
Am I imagining it? I really don't think so.
Are other treatment just as effective or better? Maybe. Probably.
Can it cure cancer or the flu? I haven't met a chiropractor who claim they can. Maybe there are some BS-artist. But we have people claiming they have a perpetual energy machine, does that make physics BS?
"Chiropractors may be effective at giving temporary relief for back pain, so if you just want the pain to go away for a few days they may be a good solution."
The mainstream medical equivalent is to prescribe a dozen opiate pills to achieve the same result, but with significant downsides. Which is bullshit?
"National Security is the chief cause of national insecurity." - Celine's First Law
Yep. That's fine. So in some cases it is a good back rub for sore, knotty muscles. Otherwise some other process might occur. The point of the article is that it is based on pseudo science and bullshit.
If the calibre of you argument is, "ask the people it helped," then it is just as easily refuted by, "ask the people it has hurt and/or killed." There's plenty of those.
I know people who go to chiropractors because it is treatment they can afford. Regular doctors might get better result if you throw enough time and money at the problem but if your budget maxes out before you get any effective treatment, what are you left with?
Of course, it's impossible to prove that the treatment did nothing for you and you would have got better on your own, but hey, why not?
And yet a real physical therapist gets better results with less visits for a lower cost (when you factor in the fact they can actually fix problems.)
I'm a good cook. I'm a fantastic eater. - Steven Brust
I use call girls. Most of them will do a massage, and I feel *much* better after I've gotten a "release".
I constantly see articles like this on the internet decrying the the evil unscientific ways of chiropractors, but I have never encountered in in the real world. This is despite having many friends and family members that have seen many different chiropractors in multiple states. Some that work with large practices, others that look like old hippies working part time out of their home. Yet not of them, not one, has claimed to cure anything other than skeletal/muscular problems like chronic back pain, bad posture/gaits, legitimate referred pain, etc.
I've read about the history of chiropractic medicine, and yeah it is pretty ridiculous. Just like the early history of psychology and other medical practices. And I'm sure there probably are still a few quacks out there, but most of the quackery that you linked is also espoused by celebrity MDs, not just or even mostly chiropractors. It seems like the vast majority of the field has moved on past their unsavory roots; when will the internet crusaders move on as well?
Bullshit.
My Dr gave me a referral to a physical therapist that actually helped correct the problem.
Next you are going to tell us the magic crystals and diterary bullshit that chiropractors deal in works too, right?
I'm a good cook. I'm a fantastic eater. - Steven Brust
I agree except when the thing I need is my spine put back in place. When I was young I would sometimes do something stupid like lift too large a load or lift off center loads (e.g. lift 100# of roofing while standing sideways on a sloped roof) and my back would pop out, I've had x-rays (independently) and then gone for an adjustment and felt great until I did the next stupid thing. One lady turned me away when I got an MRI of my neck, she showed me the problem and explained that there was nothing she could do for that type of issue, foraminal narrowing. For that I now have a home traction unit, after having physical therapy do mechanical traction a couple times for me. The home unit works great and costs almost nothing.
So, for me there was a time when what Chiropractors did was what needed to be done, I fear those days are over.
You have the right to remain sentient. If you give up the right to remain sentient, you will be elected to public office
My understanding is that there are two schools of Chiropractors. One is Quackery and the other is Legitimate Medicine. This breeds a lot of confusion. Added to this is the fact that peoples Spines and Discs and Nerves and injuries to such are each unique, what works for one person may not work for another.
Everyone I know who experiences relief from a trip to the chiro also seems to be addicted to the treatments.
They can make things physically better temporarily, and they can make people feel better... but most people I know who stayed away from their chiro for a year or more don't miss them anymore now that they're not going. When they were going, they'd have to be back every week or two or they'd be "in agony."
Chiropracty, like acupuncture, is a practice which seems to have a kernel of truth hidden within an aura of woo and it's a shame that science hasn't yet been able to separate them. The physical manipulations used by chiropractors do seem to be helpful to a lot of people, the crystals maybe less so.
https://youtu.be/l33ot5y-XxY The difference the chiropractor made for this severely disabled teenage boy is ASTOUNDING. I'm sure there are plenty of chiropractic quacks trying to make a quick buck off of insurance money, but it's medically and scientifically irresponsible to claim that all chiropractors have no value in any circumstances. Just see for yourself.
As a bunch of " hocus pocus, guesswork, and strongly held religious beliefs." Aside from things like humor theory, astrology and alchemical theories were freely mixed into medieval and Renaissance medicine. For centuries there was little reason not to prefer alternative medicinal theories to academic medicine.
But the fact that conventional medical training was done at great academic centers gave it a long term advantage. As empiricism became the basis of scientific inquiry, medicine adopted it too. Medical empiricism has never been quite so robust as scientific empiricism, but by 1900 you were probably better off with a medical doctor than with the village herbalist, faith healer, or random quack. A hundred years earlier that'd have been a dubious proposition.
Post may contain irony: discontinue use if experiencing mood swings, nausea or elevated blood pressure.
dd
"My Dr gave me a referral to a physical therapist that actually helped correct the problem."
So, he sent you to a chiropractor (in form, if not name).
"chiropractic as a whole hasn't evolved like other areas of medicine" because they haven't embraced the same biased experimentation protocol, corruption tactics and narrow mindedness.
Not all chiropractors do medical quackeryas the articles title would suggest. Mine is evidence based, they took x rays, let me know I have scoliosis and recommended some things I could do to keep my condition in check. No hocus pocus there, although I did accidentally go to a homeopathic chiropractor once that tried to remove emotional damage from my abdomen with some kind of witchcraft.
It depends on what the issue is. Yes, there are a lot of Chiropractors who indulge in all kinds of quackery. But Chiropractors are licensed to take X-rays and diagnose issues with the back that don't require surgery. People "throw their back out" doing something they shouldn't have done, and injure their back in such a way that can be solved by a chiropractic adjustment. Think of the equivalent of a jammed finger or dislocated shoulder as one example. Perhaps something like that may solve itself eventually, or perhaps a masseuse might be able to deal with it, but masseuses don't have anywhere near the training a Chiropractor has, and are typically not trained for non muscle related injuries (and masseuse/massage therapy training is significantly more varied across the states than that required for a licensed Chiropractor), whereas a Chiropractor can handle both muscle and non muscle related issues.
A competent Chiropractor can take an X-ray and will refer you to a doctor if there is an injury that is not suitable for their skills, e.g. surgery is required. But back surgery should be the absolute last resort for fixing a back problem. You should always get a second or even third opinion before having back surgery.
I'd avoid any Chiropractor that wants you to visit on an ongoing basis. If that is the case, you would be right in that a masseuse would be a better and cheaper alternative. I have a Chiropractor who is willing to deal with a specific issue and solve it and that's it. I've visited him for a total of 3 sessions for two different back problems in the last 10 years. There's nothing temporary about the relief I got.
The mainstream medical equivalent is to prescribe a dozen opiate pills to achieve the same result, but with significant downsides. Which is bullshit?
False dichotomy. Why can't both be bullshit?
... anything else. That it is an old tradition only has to do with the fact that knowlege about the skeleton and the muscular body is easy to come by simply by looking at it and pocking around. British Chiropracters are know to have a solid anatomical and related medical knowlege and there are methods know that actually are a few hundred years old that work.
That there also is a lot of foo-foo wah-wah and homeopathy nonsense around with Chiropracters is a problem, but manual therapy itself isn't pure non-sense. For instance, I'd take a very old and traditional Tai massage over a modern medical massage just about any time, even though they too have some magic stuffed mixed into their very solid tradition.
Truth be told, manual therapy works and if you're not entirely stupid, can observe and learn a little about anatomy you can figure out a lot about your self. However, and this is just as true: Chiropractice is nigh pointless if not accompanied by systematic training to handle the problematic regions of your body. If you don't do that, you'll always be going back to the Chiropracter. A good one in my book would know how to give good training and excersize advice.
My 2 cents.
We suffer more in our imagination than in reality. - Seneca
I have been to two different chiropractors - I changed because the second one had better equipment and ordered me some things that have helped that my insurance provided (water pillow, back pump, TENS unit, and pain cream - basically icy hot). She did suggest magnesium aspertate as a medicine that helps muscles relax. I don't know the bullshit level of that specifically but most times I went in I either got a really helpful adjustment - or got a really helpful massage that focused on the parts of the back that hurt worst, or the areas that were hurting due to the back pain like sciatica etc.. I never really heard anything that suggested old, debunked sciences - they did everything they could to either adjust my spine so the pressure would be taken off the muscles, or to release tension of the muscles so that the spine could then be adjusted. These theories that muscles affect what your joints do I think is pretty well proven - and I have been able to make great progress by knowing hot to adjust my spine - go in and get it done, or give in and get steroid injections. By the way - they didn't have steroid injections listed anywhere in any religious texts, or back as early as pre 1900. So - I say again - this article is what is bullshit.
They're only about three miles apart. I guess it is obvious to you that they're frauds.
No, a physical therapist is not at all a fucking chiropractor, in form or name.
If you are into alternative medicine that involves the “manipulation of muscle tissue and bones”, I’d suggest seeing a Doctor of Osteopathic Medicine (D.O.) rather than a quack chiropractor. I’m not a fan of osteopathy but, at least, that field has properly educated medical doctors (the aforementioned D.O.s): in the U.S., those are normal physicians with an added specialisation in osteopathy, and they will therefore have the ability to use the gamut of modern medicine like any physician. (On the other hand, I’d suggest avoiding the non-D.O. plain “osteopaths”, who are not physicians.)
"But we have people claiming they have a perpetual energy machine, does that make physics BS?"
No, but you should probably not go to them for your back pain, either.
One of my best friends decided to become a chiropractor, years ago -- so I got to learn a fair bit about that whole process and the challenges it presented.
First off? Yeah, it's true. A whole lot of people become a chiropractor because they're looking for a profession they can make a lot of money in, without all the studying required for a genuine medical degree. This isn't unlike a lot of people who go into dentistry though, either. In other words, it's not really a reason to write the whole field off as useless. It just means you've got to navigate the "minefield" of people who care more about buying their next luxury car or vacation home than your health.
But the other issue is, chiropractors do generally struggle to get well established. The guys with the big practices running ads on the radio constantly are the few that the rest of them aspire to be someday. People like my buddy started out genuinely wanting to help people manage their pain without resorting to getting all doped up on pain medications. That's, IMO, pretty legitimate. Problem is -- that doesn't quite pay the bills. His chiropractic college he graduated from put him almost 6 figures in student loan debt, and then he had to take out the small business loan for his own office and equipment. What usually happens is the struggling chiro says, "You know.... I could really use something to pad my revenue and pay the rent on this place. I know this lady who does acupuncture who needs an office to work out of....", or "Nobody ever got hurt taking a few essential vitamins and minerals. I should start selling some of these on the side." Before long, their practice is hawking all sorts of nonsense alternative medicine (because there's a demand for that from those who believe in it), and it's all justifiable if you view it as the power of the placebo effect and state of mind playing a role in how healthy you feel.
I think some people truly do get benefit from chiropractors, and that's a big reason insurance companies will still pay out for visits to them after car accidents. If it was pure quackery, they would have refused to give them a dime long ago. I used to know a gal, for example, who had some serious back problems. On a good day, she'd be up walking or running about like nothing was wrong at all. But she had occasional situations where her back would literally seize up, and she couldn't straighten herself back up after bending over, or found she couldn't get up out of bed in the morning. Traditional doctors didn't have a whole lot to offer her, besides highly addictive pain pills.They put her on disability so she got her monthly payment from SSI and didn't have to work. But really, that whole thing was a rather sad "solution". (90% of the time, she was as mobile as anyone else. There had to be a way she could hold down a job despite her issues.) She figured out that regular visits to a chiropractor really helped loosen up tight back muscles and certain adjustments gave her temporary pain relief and less likelihood of her back totally freezing up on her. She couldn't afford to go often, but did so when she could get a deal from a chiropractor who took pity on her situation.
The blurb up top states "... chiropractic as a whole hasn't evolved like other areas of medicine ..."
The proper term for the practice should be chiropracty. I don't know how "chiropractic" came about, but it is commonly used.
Psychology is a another pseudo science that isn't susceptible to the scientific method. There is now a replication crisis among the social sciences. Freud invented psychology because he couldn't make a living as a neuroscientist. But because he was a neuroscientist, he claimed his methods were scientific. Nearly one hundred years later we now have nearly 1/5th of the western population taking anti-depressants (prescribed by doctors and psychiatrists) without any proof that they actually work. Psychology has given rise to people who engage in a kind of shallow self obsession without pain self examination.
Similar situation for me as well, except only one visit. I could barely walk in to the chiropractors office, and certainly could not sit down. Walked out without a pain. This was 15 years ago, and maybe it would have got better on its own. I don't know and cannot prove it.
20+ yrs ago - for a week my back hurt so bad I could hardly stand, riding a motorcycle a chore. I went to a chiropractor.
He put me sideways and tried to bend or bow my back. third try I farted and my back fell into place; hasn't been a problem since.
but I did take a skeptical look at the gadget with flashing LED's that he first ran over my body.
The masseuse and massage therapist are different. The latter get mad when you call them the former. However, the former will give you a happy ending and the latter will not. Confusing the two will probably get you arrested.
"So long and thanks for all the fish."
You're right, but your conclusion isn't. Neither is BS, both work. I used BS in relation to the headline - which itself is BS, generalizing "chiropractors" to include fringe therapies well beyond what many (most?) chiropractors practice. It's painting with a very, very, broad brush. One could just as easily point to questionable practices by a subset of MDs, there are many to chose from. It's a case of invalid generalization. What's next, picking on osteopaths?
I see it as a spectrum with increasing training, and a difference in focus - physical therapists, chiropractors, osteopaths, MDs (although the OD/MD distinction has lessened over time). There are physical maladies which can be helped with physical manipulation in lieu of drugs or invasive surgery, which is what MDs tend to push. The article was written by someone with a biased agenda.
"National Security is the chief cause of national insecurity." - Celine's First Law
Meh... Opiates make you not care about trivial things like pain. If you still care about the pain, you haven't taken enough. They don't take pain away, you just don't care about it. They are kinda awesome like that.
"So long and thanks for all the fish."
One of the prime therapies that chiropractors do is using electrical stimulation. You end up feeling better, at least for a while. You can buy cheap "tens" units, google for "tens unit" cheap and they do the same thing, and you can use them while mobile, not just lying on your back. Make sure to get the electrode pads as well if you are in constant pain, but IMHO, ever house should have one, just like many other first-aid measures.
You're forming an opinion with no experience. I've been going to chiropractors for 40 years. I have mild lordosis, which makes it easy to get problems like a slipped sacrum: Intense cramping of muscles around the waist. Barely able to stand or walk. A chiropractor fixes that in one or two sessions. An MD? You'll probably be prescribed PT and pain killers -- for many months -- because MDs don't deal with spinal adjustment.
I would note, however, that there are differences in chiropractors and in their training. Some are very expert in things like anatomy and trigger release. Others are New Agey.
It's up to you to understand your own body and your options. No kind of doctor is just going to fix things for you. If you go in for psychotherapy you might end up on happy pills. If you follow your MDs orders you might end up with chronic prescription habits for all the latest fads, from high cholestrol to so-called acid reflux. A chiropractor is no different. Approach it with an open mind and critical intelligence, not baseless opinions or blind trust.
I don't think I've ever seen squiggly onhover animated links like at The Outline.
Here are some other interesting styles:
https://tympanus.net/Developme...
https://tympanus.net/Developme...
Allowed to practice? Dude, the first GOOP cult reunion just happened. Chiropractors will at least give you a rough spanking or massage, and try sell some snake oil or something. There are so many things worse regarding health and "alternative medicine" that I think it's pretty understandable why chiropractors are kinda overlooked. :P
Not that I'd fall for shit like that, but you know.
It's not their legacy. They just bought the site.
I go to a chiropractor periodically; if they can't do what needs to be done in two or three sessions, it likely won't help.
But, after I ditched the first quack (Schwartz on Sepulveda), I found a pretty good one who helped me better understand my muscles and what is causing my pain. It is 50-50 on if I come away feeling better, and when I do massages most aren't really properly qualified to address my issues. I recommend him to my friends, and afterwards they are generally appreciative of the care given.
The issue with the majority of back pain is in how people walk. I wish that had been adequately explained to me in actionable terms 20 years ago!
But going to a chiropractor for nutritional health advice... well, whatever. I (visibly) roll my eyes when my chiropractor starts going on about that crap.
I understand this is slashdot where mention of acupuncture is overrun by pseudo engineer doublespeak and hand waving about double blind tests but a good friends mother was, literally, almost killed by a series of chiropractors and then cured, slowly and not fully, by a series of acupuncturists. A chiropractor told her, once again literally "you have two or three years to live" and she couldn't walk without crying. She stumbled into an acupuncturists office and 45 minutes of weird needles later realized that, while the pain wasn't entirely gone, it was the first time in years the pain wasn't blinding. She wrote a few great magazine articles on it that predate the web.
Yeah insert your idiotic rant now and add as much racism as floats your boat. Results matter. For certain people acupuncture works. And if it's "just a placebo" but we're talking about pain relief what, exactly, is the difference. Maybe it was the mumbo jumbo not the weird herbs and nitric oxide effect. But the pain was gone.
I've got many more success stories regarding acupuncture and horror shows from chiropractic (mal)practice. That one is the happiest.
My dad is married to a massage therapist. I have to hope he's still getting happy endings... -PCP
sounds like you would be better off at a physiotherapist
True, you can walk out with a smile. However an osteopath will do the same thing, or a good therapeutic massage. The original chiropractic belief is that disease derives from a misaligned spine. This has toned down somewhat but it still has some of the same core beliefs in the true believer chiropracters. Though they tend to focus on back pain where there are indeed results, you can still find those who think it will help relieve asthma for instance. It is still "alternative medicine" though, just like acupuncture and homeopathy. Just because it can reduce back pain symptoms does not mean it's a real science.
But everyone should already know this stuff!
An osteopath will be able to recommend all sorts of treatments. Those trained in therapeutic massage and physical therapy have just as much training. There are the true believer chiropractors ("straights") on one end who should be avoided, and those on the other extreme that are basically using modern medical techniques but who call themselves chiropractors because so much of America is convinced that "chiropractor" means "back doctor".
There is evidence that chiropractic techniques may help with some back pain issues. But probably more important is that many chiropractors aren't the true believers and will also use modern medical techniques (ice packs, massage, etc). Some studies have shown that even effective chiropractic treatments to be no better than conventional treatments, but if the chiropractor is cheaper maybe consider it.
Like many alternative medicines, it's generally safe so it won't cause harm if used sparingly. Go for a visit or two and if it helps great. But don't get sucked into the core chiropractic belief, don't neglect seeing a real doctor, etc. At least most US chiropractors do recommend seeing real doctors, a big plus over homeopaths.
Hmm, mainstream medical equivalent is physical or massage therapy.
I think those probably ended at "married"...
Yeah. The latter believe that massage is "therapeutic," and have a lot invested in that belief, so they get mad when you question it.
"Chiropractor" is not the latin term for "back doctor". They're not the same thing as physical therapists or osteopaths. The origin of chiropractic was about being able to affect general health through the spine - they did not even want to be called doctors so that they would not be accused of practicing medicine without a license.
Some of the first oppositions to vaccination came from chiropractors by the way.
Try hearing aid vendors, who rip off patients, mostly elderly, who don't realize a cellphone is doing the same work for less than a hundred dollars. Or a eye doctor, who sells overpriced bits of plastic.
And the NRA won't let anybody do anything about it since they hate the idea of regulation of anything related to guns.
The history of chiropractic was not founded in medicine. They rejected germ theory and believed that general health could be affected by spinal adjustments. That's the foundation of the philosophy, it is not "fringe" except that it has become a minority view. It would be better I think if a lot of modern chiropractors stopped using the name, then the patients could more easily determine who's the quack and who just uses the name for marketing purposes because so many patients don't know the history.
(just like homeopaths, they have a lot of patients who don't know the history, they just see the "all natural ingredients" part and assume it must be good)
TFA is bullshit. Speaking from personal experience, chiropractors - who aren't all created equal, just as doctors aren't - are legitimate care providers. My chiro fixed years of chronic pain in a few treatments.
All a doctor can do about chronic low level pain is deal you drugs.
There's a lot of overlap between a good chiropractor and a physical therapist. They both use many of the same techniques (stretching, massage, exercises, etc. to stop and eventually reverse certain types of injuries).
There are also significant differences, of course. Physical therapists cover a broader range of issues, including things like learning how to walk again after a stroke. But as a result, they're also typically a lot more expensive, so for minor, chronic injuries (e.g. "programmers' back"), a chiropractor is generally a better choice.
Check out my sci-fi/humor trilogy at PatriotsBooks.
LOL Those are the ones with certification and education. Anyone can be a masseuse. ;-)
"So long and thanks for all the fish."
My chiropractor is a Doctor of Chiropractic, and has never mentioned any alternative medicine. The field is regulated and accredited in Canada (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chiropractic_in_Canada), which may explain why they are a bit more focused. Often they share offices with physical therapists and massage therapists, so look after the issues that most MDs don't look after.
From some of the comments, I think I would be concerned about going to a chiro in the US, especially if there is no significant accreditation or standards.
They might pull crap in California or New York, but I've never seen a chiropractor recommend scented candles, hugs, or witchcraft. Just a few adjustments here and there for about half an hour as needed and send you out the door. All a doctor is going to do, if they don't schedule a chiropractor, is prescribe you an opiod. Pharmaceutical companies are getting pissed at alternative medicine and you wouldn't believe how many of them are forking the bill for these "studies" and conferences to descredit people. I don't condone this personally, but here's an example with Marijuana: https://theouterlinux.com/2016.... Yes it's on my site, but I like to keep an open mind if the arguments are sound. In a nutshell, people are switching to medical marijuana instead of opioids and fighting that battle has become a lost cause for pharmaceutical companies. Some zeitgeist work out for the better, most for the worst. So now, pharmaceutical companies are attacking every alternative out there. To their credit though, A LOT of alternatives are "snake oil" and having the the purest form of a drug, even if synthetic, rather than from tree bark, is much better for you.
"The history of chiropractic was not founded in medicine. "
So it's different than barbers using leeches to remove the ill humors? You say that as if it's a good thing.
"National Security is the chief cause of national insecurity." - Celine's First Law
Modern doctors do not call themselves barbers.
Agreed.
I was very skeptical of chiropractors until I needed one. In grad school I would walk several miles to and from campus every day and somehow kept spraining the inside of my ankle. I saw multiple GPs, PT specialists, orthopedists, etc At the time grad students got free health insurance and I was referred to the PhD/MDs that were part of the med school on campus who were supposedly some of the best in their fields. I'd be fine for a week or two and then I'd be back on the crutches. Finally my wife suggested I try her chiro.
At the first visit, he figured out by watching me walk over to his exam room one leg was longer than the other by a little over an inch and I would pronate as I walked to compensate. After adjusting me, he said it would take 5 more visits. Before the fifth visit, he said I needed to get orthodics to compensate for the difference that couldn't be fixed by straightening me out. Now, unless I do something stupid that causes me not to wear my orthodics, I'm fine. I've had no more mysterious ankle sprains.
I don't know how this isn't scientific. He took measurements, formulated a plan, did adjustments that reduced pain and eliminated the swelling and inflammation without pharmaceuticals, got to the root problem, and referred me to a specialist who created custom orthodics to solve the underlying problem.
In my mind this is way better than the traditional medical approach of treating the symptoms with drugs and not really addressing the underlying problems.
I was never offered specific dietary advice other than lose a few pounds, but I was overweight from long days and eating poorly while slaving away for my PhD advisor, so that was to be expected. No crystals, no fancy sensors, no continuous treatments for the rest of my life.
Since then I have been more open to other "alternative" medical treatment. I used to have horrible insomnia... I saw sleep specialists, I was sent to a psychologist because it just had to be stress, and finally a GP told me I had reached the limits of modern pharmacology. A friend referred me to an acupuncturist. On my first visit, he said "looking at the condition of the skin, you're short on these neurotransmitters". I was skeptical so I had the levels tested and a week of supplements later I was sleeping 8 hours per night for the first time in decades.
Do I think that releasing my Chi will suddenly grant me immunity to the flu? No. Do I think my accupuncturist is an experienced specialist who thinks outside of the standard flowchart most doctors follow? Yep.
That's the key to everything. Find the experts that get real referrals. Do your homework and don't just dismiss things without it. Regardless of the field there are a lot of pretenders out there. I've seen incompetent people in a lot of areas... IT providers who can't patch a server, contractors who can't safely install anything, Doctors who miss the simple because they are trained to look at a problem through a specific lens are no different.
Are they as big of frauds as Trump? Didn't fucking think so.
Two years back I started having stabbing pain in my lower back. Went to the doctor, noticed muscle spasms, gave me some drugs and suggested do some stretching and get a nice mattress. Buy a top of the line tempurpedic. Does nothing, back pain continues for more than a month.
Go to chiropractor, get x-ray, create plan, get adjusted several times that week. Pain is gone, never to return.
Went through a period of three years of serious back problems in my early 20's. I was just about dragging one leg behind me 25 days a month. I've got a pretty high pain threshold but the pain was so intense that there were times I considered suicide. On the worst days, getting out of bed as an epic struggle. Traditional doctors told me there didn't really seem to be anything wrong with me and just kept writing me scripts for painkillers. That left me with a raging addiction and the doctors eventually washed their hands of me, forcing me out to the streets to buy drugs or be dope sick. I decided to go to a Chiropractor even though every fiber of my being thought it was bullshit. I reached a threshold where I would have tried anything....no matter how ridiculous the treatment sounded. Three weeks later, my back pain was gone. Forever. I've never gone back for additional treatment. I know, I know, "The plural of anecdote"...blah blah.
Was it just time that my back fixed itself? Possibly. All I know is that I could walk and even play sports again. My life changed forever. The addiction to pain killers? That lasted some time after that. Truly, they didn't even really take the pain away but damn are they an awesome high.
Penn and Teller called "Bullshit!" on chiropractors literally on their show "Bullshit!" back in 2003-ish.
Nope. Not I. Childhood c5/6 damage. Only a good cracker can fix it when it's seized.
Shut up. Your right to have an opinion is revoked. Anyone feeling better after going to the chiropractor should be executed and his family imprisoned for crimes against Science.
You're not getting that from an MD in the states. You may be getting that from a DO. What you're mislabeling is actually painkillers in conjunction with physical therapy, so that the PT isn't nearly as unpleasant, and so that you can sleep. Hell of a lot different than magic back crunching.
What the fuck Chiropractor has this author been going to? Some new age one? Mine has a degree is biology and teaches at a university. She knows how joints and the skeletal system works and actually fixes problems.
Exactly, it is all straw man bullshit pretending that chiropractors are witch doctors, when all of the chiropractors that I've visited were only offering to straighten my spine, something that relieves the pain in about 25% of people.
Real chiropractors in your community don't claim to replace doctors or treat other conditions.
People holding a DO degree ARE MEDICAL DOCTORS. They are certified by the same exact boards as MDs. They just also practice osteopathy, and tend to be focused on general health, the vast majority going into family medicine practices.
That is as relevant as talking about Freud to discredit a modern therapist.
No, chiropractors aren't back doctors; they're joint alignment specialists.
Evidence, please?
The best I've been able to find is anecdotal evidence that such manipulation makes patients "feel better." If you think such manipulations can cure anything at all... well, good luck with that.
It doesn't matter what somebody calls themselves, it matters what they're doing. That's why the "origins attack" is so blatantly stupid. It is like doubting gravity because Newton engaged in alchemy.
Your claim is ignorant, irresponsible, and wrong.
Contribute to civilization: ari.aynrand.org/donate
Using "birth" as a verb is the mark of an illiterate.
Contribute to civilization: ari.aynrand.org/donate
I had some relatively minor - most of the time, sometimes not minor at all - trouble with back pain for well over 10 years.
A physical therapist fixed me right up. It took over a year, and I was doing the exercises she recommended every day, EVERY day, for over a year.
also too, massage is extremely useful. i find that it provides very nice temporary relief and it makes it easier to keep things from getting out of whack.
the problem, as is often the case, is that you need a good physical therapist and good LMT.
Absolute statements are never true
+1 from a track athlete who had this very experience. I was skeptical but a chiropractor did magic on my lumbars.
basically using modern medical techniques but who call themselves chiropractors because so much of America is convinced that "chiropractor" means "back doctor".
Sounds like a priest who does not believe in God in the literal sense, but likes the ceremony.
They would get the same or better benefits from a professional masseuse,.
Or even from an oldest-professional massage parlour.
Maybe an even bigger smile.
"Crooked"
this is the pot calling the kettle black.
MDs sell pseudoscience even though they have peer review, and allegedly use "scientific method."
they found out money influences the outcomes of their studies. they always find something that's harmful and not effective, safe and effective. they lie about the actual data in their summaries, and hide the actual data releasing only falsified summaries. many of these abuses are most exposed in the psychiatric industry, where deadly brain damaging drugs that actually prevent recovery, reduce recovery, and induce schizophrenia are the standard medical treatment while more effective less intrusive methods aren't used.
we have affidavits, 20 year studies, and more that have debunked psychiatry, yet the entire field of MD medicine continues prescribing deadly psychiatric drugs and concocting fake medical science to support itself.
the United Nations supports the field of antipsychiatry, and in several places in Europe they have abandoned the fraudulent western "medical model" in favor of alternatives, because it works better. the UN has repeatedly called for the United States to stop itself, labeling psychiatry torture, asking for an ending of the game of deadly medication.
yet MDs continue to do what they do calling themselves more scientific than chiropractors? hey at least chiropractors work on people functionally, choosing less disabling less deadly treatment options than MDs. MDs prefer to set up for profit treatment models involving using unnecessary surgeries to remove body tissue, and medication that does not help and only induces illnesses - both options cannot be reversed, whereas chiropractors choose to try to fix peoples bodies without the deadly unneeded mutilation, or at least give you something to help you cope better with your issues.
here's a few links:
psychiatric drugs reduce recovery from 80% to 5%: https://www.madinamerica.com/2...
UN asks for psychiatry to stop using drugs on people, to develop a new approach: https://www.madinamerica.com/2...
affidavits on deadly problems caused by psychiatry: http://psychrights.org/Litigat...
http://psychrights.org/Litigat...
http://psychrights.org/States/...
cchr.org madinamerica.com psychrights.org mindfreedom.org
whoever allowed this fraud post on Slashdot needs murdered. seriously.
trumpsweapon.com drrobertduncan.com
Actually, I can sometimes fix my own digestive issues by working my own back through yoga. I don't see why a chiropractor couldn't do that for someone. But curing cancer, agreed. That's not very likely.
The fact is that the back is a bit of a mystery to conventional medicine as well. It turns out most of those MRI signs of back pain appear equally frequently in people who report never having back pain. Back surgery is still a bit hit or miss with potentially devastating consequences for failure. The constant ads for the currently vogue back procedure don't exactly lend any air of professionalism.
More common than you'd think - there's a support group for atheist priests. No atheist deliberately becomes a priest, but there are many priests that lose their faith and remain stuck in the profession because it's the only field that hold qualifications and experience in. So they do what many nonbelievers in highly religious communities do: Fake it.
You would have a point if chiropractors as a majority repudiated their hokum origins and did not continue perpetuating them.
Actually, in my experience, a talented chiropractor can strenghten or relax critical muscles to releive pain much faster and with much greater specificity than a masseuse.
Massage professional: I haven't a clue what your problem is, but if I rub it, you'll feel better.
GP: here's some opiods.
Chiropractor's response: oh, yeah, see this all the time. We can use electrical stimulation to strengthen this muscle here and let's address your posture.
For actual joint and muscle pain you go to your doctor? My doctors never volunteered any treatment but pain killers. Absolutely no interest in discovering the cause of the pain.
On the other hand, I dramatically reduced a great deal of lifetime back pain with half a dozen visits to a talented chiropractor.
My chiropractor works with a GP, a physical therapist, and an RN.
Chiropractic medicine is at least as effective as mainstream medicine at treating lower back pain.
This doesn't mean that it works for treating cancer or whatever else the quacks peddle.
Look at what the research says:
http://www.nhs.uk/Conditions/c...
What does this have to do with tech?
I equate chiropractors to getting my dick sucked for medicinal purposes. It feels really good in the short term, but doesnt fix a damn thing.
Got a bad back? Go and see a medically qualified physiotherapist.
If they never said it, they aren't the ones you're talking about and they have nothing to repudiate. And that makes it your hokum, not theirs.
is very much about snake-oil and putting on a show to impress on people. Quacks, simply, like much in American practice, but don't use this to attack genuine chiropractice, because what you read here may apply in the U.S. but very, very little in the world as whole.
I think chiropractors are great. They have training on the spine, and can fix the average person with back problems. They are also affordable, and can be paid in cash up front, unlike doctors in the USA. Chiropractors are low tech, with the exception of a x-ray. That means cheap.
If a chiropractor can't fix a back problem, then you should see a full blown back doctor. But, that won't be the case for most people. I think there should be chiropractor like 'medical technicians' for different body parts.
Read and learn: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/...
There's good ones and bad ones, and I've been to both. The guy I go to now doesn't try to claim chiropratic care can fix and and every thing that might go wrong and he's very straightforward about the limitations of the treatment he provides. The guy I used to see, on the other hand, I could have come in with a hole in my aorta and he'd have tried to massage it out.
One thing that a good chiropractor will do for you that a massage therapist typically won't (in my experience) is provide wellness counseling in the form of stretches and exercises you can do to speed along the healing process and behavioral changes to keep the pain away once it's gone. My experience has borne out that the pain will go away if I don't do the stretches and exercises or incorporate any of the behavioral changes; but, it does take longer without the stretches and exercises; and it's only as permanent as my willingness to adopt the behavioral changes.
The danger comes from incorporating chiropractic care with other forms of "alt medicine", rather than using it as an additional form of treatment on top of proper medical care. Yes, a lot of people do this, and a lot of chiropractors not only allow, but encourage, them to do so. That's how people die under a chiropractor's care.
At the end of the day, it's up to each and every one of us to use a little bit of common sense every once in a while and realize that you probably can't trust the guy who tells you to take a couple drops of some homeopathic "tincture" to get the vibrations from whatever was at one point in that water, and you should probably seek care from someone who hasn't jumped off the deep end.
Unfortunately, my experience is that most chiropractors have done just that, and it makes it difficult, if not dangerous, to try and find a good one.
APK quotes people (including myself) without context and should not be trusted. Just thought you should know.
My wife has jaw problems, likely partly my fault, or so she likes to say :) It's not, really, as she's dealt with it for half her life, until relatively recently, but I appreciate the compliment when she says it.
She's been to doctors who referred her to massage therapists who referred her to dentists who referred her to orthopedic surgeons who said the only way to fix her problem is to break and realign her jaw, but they'd only do so under the advice of a dentist; and it was the dentist who referred her to the guy in the first place because a dentist can't make that recommendation.
I finally got her to go to my chiropractor and when she mentioned the jaw problem, he popped it to the side a bit (it was more than that, but that's what it looked like from the sidelines) and she hasn't had jaw pain since.
Yeah, jaw fixed in one visit; he's still working on her back problems, which aren't as bad as mine but I've been seeing him for 9 months and she's been seeing him for only a month. But, really, years of doctors telling her they can't do anything for her jaw, or that they could but won't, practically every excuse in the book and common advice being "just live with it", and i could have been (and was) fixed in 20 seconds.
Actually, it's disingenuous for me to say I've been seeing him for 9 months, there were 6 months starting in November when I didn't need his services, then a combination of stress and physical overexertion put me in pain again.
APK quotes people (including myself) without context and should not be trusted. Just thought you should know.
Yes, and the problem comes from the belief that they're anything more than that. The ones who try to tell you they can cure disease are the ones to avoid. The ones who tell you they can help with joint, muscle, and nerve pain, but to put ice on it and take a couple Aleve first and only come to see them if that doesn't work after a couple days are the ones you want to see.
APK quotes people (including myself) without context and should not be trusted. Just thought you should know.
No. It's not.
When I was in the ER with a slipped disc, they gave me a shot of Dilaudid straight to the nerve and it did nothing for the pain. It didn't even do that good of a job making me not care about the pain, but it did make me loopy as fuck. Norco didn't help with the pain, either; nor did Tramadol, Hydrocodone, or Vicodin.
I suppose I could try Heroine, right?
Nah, I'm good, I've tried enough to know that shit doesn't work for me.
APK quotes people (including myself) without context and should not be trusted. Just thought you should know.
Hell, they didn't take the pain away or get me high. Well, Dilaudid did, but they only gave me a shot of that in the ER. As a result, I never became addicted; there was just nothing in them for me.
Glad to hear you beat it, though. I've seen what those addictions do to people, as well as their friends and families.
APK quotes people (including myself) without context and should not be trusted. Just thought you should know.
If the calibre of you argument is, "ask the people it helped," then it is just as easily refuted by, "ask the people it has hurt and/or killed." There's plenty of those.
The same can be said of western medicine, as well. Not everything works for everyone. Of course, it all comes down to treating the right problem with the right treatment; you don't fix a slipped disc with Vicodin just like you don't cure cancer by cracking a few joints in your back. Any doctor who prescribes Vicodin for a slipped disc is a quack, just as any chiropractor who claims they can cure cancer is a wacko.
APK quotes people (including myself) without context and should not be trusted. Just thought you should know.
That would be called an anecdote. Science and medicine works off evidence, not anecdotes.
Bullshit.
My Dr gave me a referral to a physical therapist that actually helped correct the problem.
So did mine, however I still ended up needing a chiropractor.
Next you are going to tell us the magic crystals and diterary bullshit that chiropractors deal in works too, right?
I think when you find the right chiropractor that sticks with skilled mechanical movement of the joints in the body I can't move, they are a blessing you will thank for the relief. I will indulge your patience so I can explain.
I've been training martial arts for around 30 years and occasionally competed to test myself. Mainly muay Thai and Jui Jitsu are my favorites because they are effective. I also love playing sports like football, hockey, climbing, swimming, I love it all.
Well after all those years of training all of those injuries leave scar tissue which accumulates in the body, the pain of movement becomes an issue. I was doing some intense physiotherapy deep tissue massage for many years, documenting my progress and changes which I one day presented to my doctor.
He looked at them and suggested "Dry Needling", which uses larger needles than acupuncture which is inserted directly into injury sites around the body. It's as extremely confronting as it is effective. I have had over five thousand needles stuck into pretty much anywhere you could name in the body (ok, maybe not my dick). I have resolved 27 injury sites in my body.
A pattern emerged while going through all this, all muscle tension moves from the extremities to the spine which is where I was eternally grateful for a chiropractor with the skill to cavitate my spine and get it moving again. After that the injury site was fully resolved.
I've taken almost three years off training to do this and I feel fucking amazing. I've logged movements of hundreds of hours of cavitation of joints all over my body as scar tissue broke up all over my body. I've recovered range of motion in almost every joint in my body in the cycle, needles, cavitation, chiropractor. Repeated in joints from my fingers to my hips.
The hips have been the hardest to move which I am going through writing this. For the last two days my left ankle, knee and hip have cavitated hundreds of times over a period of about 5 hours a session. The release events (I don't know what else to call them) breaks up the scar tissue through a series of numbness, stretching and cavitation and wipes you out physically. It leaves me nauseous and feeling like I've done a heavy weights session, I slept 40 hours over three days as I felt the muscles slowly pulling my hips to where they should be. It feels like I've been kicked solidly in the balls.
This is resolving a snapped achilles tendon and has been re-occurring for the last six weeks which is pulling the left side of my hips down back into horizontal alignment after previously pulling them back into lateral alignment some weeks ago. I have been through this cycle with other joints like elbows and shoulders, all resolved.
Indeed I think the biggest problem I've had is with a part of my neck that many chiropractors had difficulty moving. I've found that some Chiropractors are afraid of moving peoples necks and it is a risk, that has to be acknowledged. However I know the few times I found a chiro that could move that problem part of my neck I slept like a baby for months. Most of the time it was me pushing the chiropractor.
I think you're right to call the bullshit parts of chiropractors out, just stick with moving the spine and keeping it moving, it is a key component of the body and you want it to function properly. Having said that I offer the following advice from what I've learned:
My ism, it's full of beliefs.
And it actually helps you. When all the doctors can offer you is drugs and nothing.
Why play woo roulette with a chiropractor? There is no reason that a chiropractor is required at any stage in the process. Need a nice back rub? Go to a masseur. Need treatment for a physical problem? Go to a physiotherapist.
Osteopathy is quackery too.
The mainstream medical equivalent is to prescribe a dozen opiate pills to achieve the same result
Not at all. The only time mainstream medical would prescribe opiate pills would be to relieve pain from an injury that would self heal which is the vast majority of muscular related injuries that a person is likely to experience in their life.
For improved healing speed and effect the mainstream medical world would refer you to phyiso, active, or manual therapy, or for a hospital visit.
Of course, it's impossible to prove that the treatment did nothing for you and you would have got better on your own, but hey, why not?
Not really. I'm dealing with a "control" scenario right now.
Every few years, I'll do something that will cause me to pinch a nerve in my neck (lower cervical/upper thoracic) It can be mild, like a pain when moving my arm in a certain way, or severe where I can't turn my head more than 10 degrees to one side. If I wait for it to go away on its own, it can take weeks. If I go to the chiropractor, partial relief (reduced pain, increased mobility) is immediate, and full relief happens in 2-3 days. It may or may not require a second adjustment--but that's up to me.
I'm dealing with a pinched nerve that seems to originate right between my shoulder blades (but I know that "feels like" can be deceptive). I know the cause: Chairs that are too short, and desks that are too high. But I'm in China, and that's the way all the furniture is. I'm using pillows and stacks of foam to deal with the former, but I can't rebuild the office desks to deal with the latter. I can't find a chiropractor here. I know a qualified one could fix this right away.
But I'm also aware that the only thing Chiropractors can do is adjust joints to relieve pressure on nerves and strain on muscles. And a good one will give you advice on how to avoid these problems in the future (like, take your wallet out of your pocket when you sit down).
Lots of comments here about the time a chiropractor managed to help with back pain.
Listen, you morons. There's a type of medical professional called a "physiotherapist" who does "bone stuff" like chiropractors, but is actually part of the mainstream medical system.
A chiropractor isn't like a backyard mechanic or unlicensed electrician who can probably do a better job than a complete amateur. In my opinion, they're even worse. They haven't gone into business without a qualification, they've actively pursued a bogus qualification.
Most of the comments so far appear to be anecdotal. What happened to actually applying experimental science? Chiropractors should not have a problem with this if what they do actually works. Generally, I have found (in my unscientific, non-random sampling) that chiropractors and their devotees view the whole thing more like a religion. When the idea of scientific verification is brought into the discussion, the response is to attack the legitimacy of scientific research. Every big lie contains some truth. There is too many faulty medical research studies published, so some criticism is valid. In the main, however, medical science has been advanced by a lot of solid basic and applied research.
Since there is not much financial reward in research that debunks the chiropractic religion, and since there is strong financial incentive for the chiropractic priests to continue, I doubt that we will see much reliable, well done studies on their methods and results any time soon.
I know an Osteopathic Physician named Dr. Abend, any chance you are related?
I think they serve a purpose for people with temporary strains and mild conditions. But too many probably are just avoiding medical treatments that would resolve their problem. Acupuncture is also effective for mild conditions. But not a cure all for chronic pain caused by a medical condition. I also think many Chiropractors overstep their place and don't tell patients that a medical problem needs to be addressed and evaluated by a doctor not a Chiropractor.
Chiropractics is not an alternate therapy, it is a conventional one like massage physio therapy or anything else an orthopedic would subscribe.
Cost free eBook I read (by iBook/Kobo/Amazon/ObookO/Gutenberg etc.): "The Green Odyssey" by Philip Jose Farmer.
If you see something wrong with Qi Gong you must be a complete moron.
Cost free eBook I read (by iBook/Kobo/Amazon/ObookO/Gutenberg etc.): "The Green Odyssey" by Philip Jose Farmer.
Chiropractics is a wide field. ...
The guy coining the term was a wacko.
No our days Chiropracticer believes he can cure cancer or a flue buy relocating de located joints.
How do you come to that brain dead idea?
The few Chiropracticers I know have an university degree
Cost free eBook I read (by iBook/Kobo/Amazon/ObookO/Gutenberg etc.): "The Green Odyssey" by Philip Jose Farmer.
As someone who has used chiros occasionally over the years, and had family members helped over the years, I call bullshit on your bullshit. This was just an irrational rant from someone with no knowledge of the subject.
You are an idiot.
An anecdote has the same level of evidence as any other 'result' in a similar scientific or non scientific experiment.
The stone I dropped from the bridge lately and measured the time it needed to hit the water was the same anecdote as the stones on lead balls Galileo dropped from the tower of Pisa.
Cost free eBook I read (by iBook/Kobo/Amazon/ObookO/Gutenberg etc.): "The Green Odyssey" by Philip Jose Farmer.
"I went to my chiropractor and now my back feels great!"
Great, a sample size of one. That really helps us get to the bottom of this thing.
No, they don't.
Instead, they have this conceitful affectation for prominently using their honorific titles whenever possible. Which instead of linking them to their roots, associates them with other practitioners like Dr. Wilhelm Reich (Orgone accumulator), Dr. Mehmet Oz ("miracle pill"), Dr. Farid Fata (confessed in court to intentionally and wrongfully diagnosing healthy people with cancer, then selling them profitable chemotherapy drugs), Dr. Christine Daniel (selling herbal cancer cures), Dr. Gayle Rothenberg (injecting people with fake Botox), many more. And that's not even exploring the rich waters of doctors practicing psychiatry.
Certainly, if the summary can point to 3 chiropractors and use that do proclaim chiropractic to be bullshit, the same can be done for mainstream medicine as represented by MDs.
"National Security is the chief cause of national insecurity." - Celine's First Law
Remove Chiropractic coverage from Medical Insurance. I vaguely remember the fight they had to get medical insurance to cover chiropractic services.
A chiropractic therapy is like a massage. If my doctor recommends it for a few weeks, fine, I'll go. But I'd rather visit a massage therapist for $50/hr instead.
If there aren't double-blind studies proving that any treatment works, forget it. It is quackery.
However, any M.D. will tell you that 50% of all human ailments go away on their own - without treatment. Also it is natural to feel better after **anything** supposed to correct a condition is performed.
The human mind can be the most powerful healing tool.
I had chronic severe headaches my entire life. I remember distinctly in 2nd grade my teacher kept a bottle of Tylenol in her desk with my name on it. I know what you're probably thinking, but this was 30 years ago in a private school, so nobody thought anything of it then. As an adult, I typically had a headache twice a week, and some weeks I had them every day. Two or three times a year they were so bad I would have to leave work.
Last year I tried some chiropractic care as a hail mary for another medical issue. It didn't help with what I walked in the door for, and made my long-abused back feel worse, but I haven't had a headache since my first visit around a year ago. I discontinued my visits last August, so there has been real staying power. I don't know everything chiropractic may benefit, but it certainly helped me with my headaches. If I find them returning, I wouldn't hesitate to return for an adjustment or two.
It's a perfect time for being wasted.
A perfect time to watch the stars.
- Burden Brothers, "Beautiful Night"
If you believe that, you have obviously failed to understand the scientific method.
There's a vast difference between me presenting you with a list of detailed measurements from a controlled experiment as opposed to just saying, "hey, I dropped some objects from a bridge and they all hit the water at the same time."
Some chiropractors definitely are quacks, but the training they are provided is not Bullshit. Many years ago, my grandmother was known to have osteoporosis and was complaining of back pain. The chiropractor refused to even touch her back without an X-Ray. After looking at her X-Ray, he highly suspected her to have lung cancer (which was correct) and referred her to a cancer specialist. Now it wasn't caught early enough, but it was caught a lot earlier than it would have been had she not gone to the chiropractor at all.
I saw them in Jurassic Park, they're real!
Confucius say, "Find worm in apple - bad. Find half a worm - worse."
I had piriformis syndrome that was giving me a lot of pain and visited a chiropractor. He identified the problem, explained it to me in a clear manner, told me what to do about it, and taught me stretching exercises to prevent its recurrence in the future. He charged me $40 per visit (in cash, in full, at time of service) for 3 visits. At the end of the last of visit he told me I didn't need to come back anymore. A masseuse wouldn't have the knowledge, and if I even talked to a doctor for 5 minutes, I'd get three different bills a month and a half later, and they'd add up to way more than $120. I am quite glad I visited that chiropractor.
You're absolutely right. Except in studies where you can't control all of the variables. In these you can't make any conclusions based on just one or even a few data points because you don't know what outside factors may have come to play to get the result you found.
Instead you need thousands, or even better millions of anecdotes to hopefully average out all of the outside factors. Which is why anecdotes of one individual don't mean much scientifically.
My opiate addicted brother-in-law proves you wrong.
"National Security is the chief cause of national insecurity." - Celine's First Law
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/British_Chiropractic_Association_v_Singh
worth a read
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/British_Chiropractic_Association
"Though available as a private treatment, chiropractic treatment remains limited within the United Kingdom National Health Service (NHS) and is only recommended by National Institute for Health and Clinical Excellence (NICE) for the treatment of one condition, persistent low back pain. There remains negative, inconclusive or no evidence for any other condition.[30]"
You are one dumb motherfucker
The wording is wrong 'scientifically' has no point in your final sentence.
The question is only if it is a big study, and/or if it needs to be a big one.
E.g. if you want to study about migraine, you probably want to question a few thousand of probands. But scientifically every single anecdote has the same value. Later you filter out those who are rare outsiders. However they still are interesting and not unscientific. You only filter so you can more easy find groups/phenomena that have something in common.
Anyway, I was only answering because /. is full, with idiots who think an anecdote had no scientific value, because it is either fake or an outsider or not reliable.
When I'm alone in the desert and realize the sun is rising in the east, for some /. it is an anecdote, for me it is a fact of nature.
Cost free eBook I read (by iBook/Kobo/Amazon/ObookO/Gutenberg etc.): "The Green Odyssey" by Philip Jose Farmer.
Confirmation bias; The one time you walk out with no pain completely masks the multiple times you did not.
Most chiropractic sessions start with moist heat alternating with a cold compress, then that is followed by the kabuki dance. When helped you is the alternating heat and cold. The "cracking" the back thing isn't an "adjustment" it nothing more than releasing of synovial fluid.
So, chiropractic, holistic medicine, homeopathic remedies, reiki, faith healers, psychics, and on and on, are all frauds.
Real medicine is tested and proved. "Alternate Medicine," if it can be tested and proved, then it becomes "Medicine." The stuff like Gwenith Paltrow shills is nonsense.
A dry, but good video
Slashdot's rate-of-post filter: Preventing you from posting too many great ideas at once.
For a site that supposed to be read by intelligent people, the amount of anicdotes defending this bulshit is incredible...
I weep for the progress of humans looks like the movie Idiocracy (http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0387808/) was a documentary.
If you say that to a qualified Physiotherapist, you'll be needing a funeral director. Chiropractors are quacks. They have zero legitimacy with medical professionals.
Eh - I've been to a masseuse that did that stuff when I threw out my back.
Doesn't have to be called a chiropractor to know basic muscle interaction in the back.
When I first hobbled in I tried to lie on my stomach - she told me to lie on my back - I questioned it - she told me it wasn't my back but my psoas. Really tight. She gave me some exercises. She was a masseuse.
Since then I've done core / yoga type stuff daily and never had a problem or back pain since. Ymmv.
Why do people still put their wallet in their back pocket ? We realized that was stupid the day after we made pants with back pockets.
You sound like a fucking mess to me. Mentally and physically.
I am skeptical of most chiropractors, but not all. My SO was having terrible problems with her shoulder, and two members of my family who are doctors independently recommended a chiropractor in the town where they practice. He has worked as a trainer for five Olympic teams (including one of the Canadian teams in Rio).
She went to one appointment with him and after some excruciating poking and prodding, she immediately improved the movement in her shoulder. Three more appointments, and her shoulder has been close to normal for over a year. He didn't try to sell her anything or get her to make a series of appointments. He also didn't spout any nonsense about aligning her spine or "subluxations".
He also treated a local surgeon who had been suffering crippling back pain, and had consulted experts in Canada and the U.S. with no success, even after surgery. He saw Alban a few times and within 6 months was back to training for marathons and triathlons.
So some of these guys are the real deal, you just have to find them.
> But scientifically every single anecdote has the same value.
Nope. Anecodotal reporting by subjects can be a valid part of scientific studies if they are controlled for, but a random anecdote with no context or filtering is scientifically useless.
That depends on the type of back problem you have. I tend to get a vertical twist in my spine and it will eventually pinch nerves causing loss of feeling in my legs (as in: I literally can fall over while walking, it's a weird feeling.)
My chiropractor keeps this twist in check, I see him every two to three months. I tried going without it and I would get very sore (nerves pinched.)
So far, I have my mobility back and have no complaints. Their office do have all these supplements which I ignore but do not underestimate the value of a chiropractor when you have a real back problem.
In my case I combined it with physiotherapy to strengthen my core back muscles. I tried physio without the chiropractor and after four months I was in pain. The physiotherapists couldn't figure out why.
"Just ask anyone who could barely walk into the Chiropractor's office, and walk out pain-free with a smile."
That's exactly what happened to me, except I couldn't walk in; I had to be carried.
One back adjustment and the pain vanished, as if it had never been there.
My chiropractor knew exactly what he was doing. He told me the pain would return in a couple of days (it did) and that he'd have to do an adjustment twice a week for about 6 weeks. We did that and I didn't have an issue after that.
Say what you like about them - it worked for me. Had I gone to a regular MD I would have been given a handful of muscle relaxants and pain killers, and possibly scheduled for back surgery.
So here is the deal, 'Chiropractors Are Bullshit' , sure they might fix an ache or pain, but your body will slip back into that state. That is why you need to go for regular relalignment appointments.
Also, Chiropracty caries lots of risk, stroke, pinched nerves, broken/cracked/chipped bones and the list goes on. A family member of mine was in a car accident and had a messed up neck, so they went to the Chiropractor. Next thing we knew they were on the way to the emergency room with the symptoms of a stroke. The adjustments tore and artery in the neck which lodged in the brain, causing irreversible brain damage from the clot.
I sit in a chair all day like you, and messed up my back. I was in PT (physical therapy) for two summers trying to get better, but I still had chronic pain.
What finally helped?
Core strength, exercising, moving.
Now, 3-4 times per week I exersise. 20-30 minutes of cardio, followed by 30 minutes of core/back strengthening exercises.
I am healthy, fit, and strong AND NO MORE BACK PAIN.
It will take you about 3 months for the pain to go away, but you will see it decline and fade away. I can sit in a chair, play on the floor, pull weeds, pick strawberries, bike ride, life heavy objects.
Make fitness part of your life, you will feel better and can escape regular chiropractor visits and addiction to pain medication.
I could barely walk a few years ago. I couldn't jump without intense back-pain and now I can run, jump, and play in my mid 40's.
Even if you can barely move, start today. Visit your local YMCA, get a trainer, start slow, keep at it, and slowly day-after-day you will make gains and in 3 months your core will be able to take a punch from Mike Tyson and you will be strong and fit.
A strong body core is like a second set of back muscles. It supports you and holds you together. When you tighten your core/stomach it helps you back. immensely.
There are no quick fixes in life, no silver bullets, no magic pills. You have to earn the gains. No one can do it for you. You can't buy it. You can't steal it. It is something that requires routine and a little mental toughness. Do it, it will change your quality of life.
Remember this, by saying, "Oh, I don't have time to work out, exercise, or strengthen my core." what you are really saying is that, "I am choosing not to make my physical fitness and quality of life a priority." Say it outloud 3 times and see how it sounds, "I am choosing not to make this a priority, then add I would rather have back surgery and spinal fusion surgery, and be addicted to pain medicine."
I do it 3-4 time per week at 8PM. I am choosing to make my health and quality of life a priority. I don't want to be in chronic pain. I don't want to visit a quack to crack my bones. I don't want to take 6 Alleve pills per day.
As a side benefit, putting on muscles will help anyone who is pre-diabetic, and it will lower your cholesterol. Exercise has an amazing effect on the body.
Do it. Put down the DAMN COMPUTER and drive to the YMCA or GYM with a trainer NOW. Go, get off your ass. Start slow, give it 3 months and you will be a new person.
Leave NOW!
I "slipped a disk" a few years back and the traditional medical care I received was misguided and useless except for the part where they referred me to PT. I'm really glad I did not opt for surgery! The PT guy quickly massaged and manipulated me into alignment and gave me exercises. Worked faster and better than the medicine and despite a few setbacks actually solved the problem. In my experience with back injury it was traditional medicine that was a scam and money grab.
Over 4 years neither doctors or massage worked.
Chiropractor fixed it in 1 month.
End of story.
Dr. Ernest G. Napolitano, and two of my aunts worked for him in his office there. Snappy dresser, and I got some hand me down suits. So call me biased. :)
http://www.nycc.edu/news/newsi...
https://www.nycc.edu/pdfs/give...
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/...
He was one of two first chiropractors in NY, and he and the other fellow took turns bailing each other out of jail as the local medical establishment kept getting them locked up.
So I had a good opinion of chiropractors before I ended up needing one. I call what I received "the mother of all adjustments". I got all the prep work done first, X-rays, diathermy, session on the bed with the rollers, and finally the adjustment. I had been suffering from a numbness in the arm that had me shaking it and pummeling it to make the tingling go away when I was in bed. Pain in the neck and back, numbness going down the leg. I was working as a clam digger at the time.
Anyway, so now I'm getting pegged down onto the table. My doctor was a big guy, an athlete, and kept repositioning the pegs to make them tighter and tighter. It finally felt like they were grinding against my hips. He then put a towel under my neck and began rotating my neck while telling me to relax, and breathe in and out. That went on until I was pretty well zoned out. He then pulled up on the towel, and the crack I got could be heard all around the room. There were gasps from the other patients. I felt it down my ribcage as though it had been separated. My back got straightened out, and the pain and numbness was gone.
I later saw Doctor Napolitano at a wedding, and he remembered my chiro as being a good student, and a good basketball player. Lol, it was cool to be able to drop the name of the person who signed my chiro's diploma when I next saw him on a followup. He remembered my aunts as well, as they collected tuition payments.
A few years later I had to all but carry my brother in due to his back being in agony and his spine being out of line. Some diathermy treatments, the rollers, and then an adjustment, and he was back to clamming again, which he still does today, at the age of 63. I know other clammers that use chiropracters, as do a number of gym rats. "If your spine is line, then you'll feel fine", and for otherwise healthy people whose exertions put their back out of whack, a chiropractor can be a sound choice for a fix.
One last anecdote. Dr. Nap was something of a local legend when he practiced, his office was always full, and he'd have a line out the door, and stretching to the sidewalk. Lol, those were some damn fine suits that I was gifted with. :)
You sound like a fucking mess to me. Mentally and physically.
I was, I've been through a lot. Anyone carrying around a lot of physical injury is going to suffer mentally from it, it is impossible not to. That's why I started by healing my body to see where it would lead. Turns out it gives you the cognizance to sort all your mental shit out as well.
If you've got the balls to though, it is very confronting, I doubt it is for everyone.
My ism, it's full of beliefs.
From Wikipedia: "Chiropractic is a form of alternative medicine mostly concerned with the diagnosis and treatment of mechanical disorders of the musculoskeletal system, especially the spine.[1][2] Proponents claim that such disorders affect general health via the nervous system.[2] "
If you approach this from the perspective that your back (your spine specifically) carries all the roots of nerves, and instructions to and from various parts of your body... its quite sensible that it can and is a core component of the body that needs to be paid close attention to. Just as much, if not more than your "rock hard core" for overall long term health (sit up straight... as you've been told all your life but still don't... duh).
As programmers / Engineers / frequent computer jockeys I have seen first hand (and lived it my whole life since my first TI-99) that we have AWFUL posture when working. Which to be honest is roughly 16 hours a day for me. If your monitor is too low on your desk your neck will literally reverse its curvature (I have seen my own XRays that proved this). I have an oversized noggin to boot... so by the time I was in college I woke up everyday with a mild headache which frequently became worse as the day went on. I just assumed this was the way of life. My Doctors gave me all kinds of muscle relaxers and even several forms of migraine medicine to combat the problem.
Meanwhile... my wife, whom had broken one of the tabs off the vertebrate in her back when she was younger training horses and went to a Chiropractor pretty religiously (as Doctors had told her she would need extreme surgeries to lock her back in place and would likely not be able to walk in 10 years at all...) keeps her vertebrate in place. (Shes 52 now... almost 30 years later and walks dogs for a living...)... Anyway... she kept extolling the virtues of Chiropractors... and if I didn't know her medical history first hand would have had the exact same opinion as most of the folks above... witchdoctors... quakery... but knowing her background it was hard to be entirely dismissive. So I reluctanly went to see her Chiropractor.
The Doctor took XRays. He then pointed out very clearly the curvature of my spine at my neck going the wrong way. It is supposed to act like a shock absorber... mine was essentially putting all the weight of my head directly at the bottom of my neck. My Engineering brain said... maybe there is something to this, I'll give him a chance.
It took around 4-5 visits... going every 2 days (and the first couple days I was INCREDIBLY sore as muscles that were used to fighting against the bad position they were in suddenly were freed up... this is where the massage therapist would have been nice to add to the treatment).... and for the first time in as long as I could remember... I woke up without a headache. Whats more, over time (it took another 3 weeks of visits every 2 days before we backed off to once a week, then once every 2 weeks, now (years later) I go when I can feel it starting to get out of whack again... the migraines subsided almost entirely and headaches rarely affect me anymore. I also don't get out of bed like Dracula anymore.
In summary, it should be obvious that having an inappropriately aligned spine can cause difficulties (being the central path to so much of our nervous system. I have no idea why people are so quick to write off entire groups of people for the few that exploit the system. As has been mentioned above there are plenty of pill pushers in the medical system, just as there are "crystal" pushers in the chiropractic system... this is usually because of the extremely high costs associated with being in this line of business.... whether due to litigation and insurance, or education and office costs. At the base of it is the fact that corrections can help if you have a problem in this area... and I'd rather have someone that trained to do it for years rather than someone trained to understand hematology for example. Treat it like Dentists (and sadly the Doctors are goi
Dude, change the font of your website, it's a crime against humanity.
Mostly random stuff.
I know people who were really helped by chiropractic, but when they did some searching to find out more about the theory behind it, were shocked by finding a swamp of swill about e energy channels and subluxations.
If chiropractic makes your back feel better, don't make the mistake of asking more about it.
Anecdotal evidence on chiropractors...my wife uses one to keep her back pain in check. She swears it works. She's happy, it only costs me $50/month, so I'm happy.
Sir you are in such terrible shape because you sit in a chair 12 plus hours a day. Your posture is terrible, and your shoulders are pulled forward from all of the mousing and typing and monitors flat on desks.
I can help adjust you to appropriate posture which will relieve a lot of built up tension temporarily. We will likely need to continue this practice for relief until you address the other problems.
Tldr what I see are a bunch of sour posters, because some guy cannot bend you into a HWP BMI appropriate shape (with muscle to maintain it) in one visit.
Chiropractors may be bullshit, but so is the biopharm industry.
Physical therapists give nearly the same advice as a chiro after the 'therapy' which is:
Stop being a fat slob with awful posture and terrible muscle support.
I'm married to a professional masseuse, and can get as much massage as I need. I still go to a chiropractor for neck and shoulder problems.
Chiropractic works because placebos work. Placebos have been shown to cause release of endorphins. In addition the "laying on of hands" probably also causes release of oxytocin.
Of course, instead of endorphins you can take opiates, and instead of laying on of hands to get oxytocin you could eat chocolate.
In addition, people think they are better when actually they aren't. There's a reason why careful science requires a lab notebook.
The ones who try to tell you they can cure disease are the ones to avoid.
You could visit a different chiropractor every month for your whole life, and you'd most likely never meet one. They're something held up for tinfoil hat bullies to shout at, they're not a real problem in the community.
I have a student whose chiropractor broke her neck vertebra.
I have known a couple of people whose chiropractors gave them bruises.
For all these "worked for me" anecdotes, there are just as many horror stories.
Putting yourself under the care of someone who is not scientifically trained is insane.
Your opiate addicted brother-in-law proves nothing more than a sad case from one bad actor.
Anecdote is not data.
A single data point is not a trend.
You don't know science.
etc.
etc.
I've met a few, actually. My current chiropractor knows a few as well, and we laugh about them during my visits. Of course, this guy does have an acupuncturist on staff and rents an office to a homeopath. We laugh about her, too, if she's out of the office when I'm there. He doesn't refer patients to her, but he has several who believe in that mumbo jumbo so it makes sense for him to have her there; apparently, there are people who are into that garbage and will refuse to see a chiropractor who doesn't at least give off the air of associating with those types.
How do I know this guy's good? My wife has had jaw problems for half her life and has gotten the runaround from doctors, dentists, and even an orthopedic surgeon. Apparently, an orthopedic surgeon can "fix" it by breaking and re-setting the jaw, but anyone she's gone to says they'll only do it after a doctor has given a referral to a dentist who determined it needs to be done and given a referral for the surgery. That's right, just going to a dentist who says it's needed and gives the referral isn't enough; and, to top it off, 3 dentists told her she needs to get a recommendation for the surgery from an orthopedic surgeon before they'll refer.
How the hell is that supposed to work?
PROTIP: Chiropractors adjust jaws, as well. One adjustment, 20 seconds, no more jaw problems.
That's how I know this guy is good.
APK quotes people (including myself) without context and should not be trusted. Just thought you should know.
How is this related to tech or open source in particular? This article seems pure opinion. Aren't there moderators here anymore?
I had my atlas bone out of place in my neck. I quickly learned where the phrase pain in the neck came from. I couldn't do anything and even turning over in bed was really hard to do. A couple visits the a local Chiropractor resolved it. I felt it when the bone went in the right place. It made all the difference. I've been back since for upper or lower back pain and has almost always made things better.
Most non-serious back issues heal in 6 weeks without treatment. If you're not sure if you have a serious back problem, see a physician. Avoid early surgery, unless the problem will get worse without it. Try to resist the temptation to pay charlatans and frauds. Many people are idiots, and can't resist; hence chiropractors.
The healing energy stuff is pure unadulterated bullshit. As a yoga / dancing around in pj thing for physical exercise, I'm sure it's nearly as effective as walking, sorry if I insulted your favorite breathing hobby.
Except for run away medical prices. I went to PT in the 1990's. It was "expensive" for PT then at $60 per hour (60min). Fast forward a few years ago and my daughter needed PT for her knee. $600 for 45 min. How they accomplish ripping insurance companies off is bill in 15 min increments loading all the billing codes they can into each 15 min. Has the actual care changed from 90's to today. Nope. But the cost has. They wanted her to come in for 12 visits too. After 4 we stopped. Chiropractors are about the same or cheaper than 90's and now covered by most insurance.
When someone says, "My chiropractor...," just smile and nod. Understand that they have just admitted either grave irgorance or idiocy. Sometimes it can be hard to tell; sometimes you don't have the time to bother. Take their wisdom with a grain of salt. How do they fix computers and networks? Manipulation? Give them an adjustment?
Bottom line chiropractors don't research or publish, because if they did, it would show them to have similar efficacy to placebo. Don't take the bait. Chiropractors are frauds. The pleural of 'anecdote' is not 'data.'
"National Security is the chief cause of national insecurity." - Celine's First Law
Not at all. You're implying that your brother was treated by mainstream medical. If he was then he wouldn't be opiate addicted. He likely got treated by someone with a corporate agenda.
I read somewhere recently (here?) that yoga can be just as good for back pain as any of many alternatives (including chiropractors).
Wow. of course you don't go to a chiropractor aka someone who spent time acquiring knowledge of the spine for acne, diabetes, cancer. It's like saying you need to go to a gynecologist doctor for diabetes. It makes better sense to go to a dietitian for your diabetes. At least they can help you craft a diet that reduces your sugar intake than say just pump you full of insulin. Of course some doctors would say otherwise. Those kickbacks are definitely worth saying so.
In the history of medicine, school of thought bashing is as old as sickness itself.
What has "healing energy" to do with Qi Gong?
I never heard about "healing energy" outside of world of warcraft. But well, I did not play many fantasy/RP games.
Are you really such a an idiot?
Yoga is actually a far relative of Qi Gong. No idea what you actually want to say ... you seem to rant about something?
Cost free eBook I read (by iBook/Kobo/Amazon/ObookO/Gutenberg etc.): "The Green Odyssey" by Philip Jose Farmer.
Saying "well it worked for me" or somesuch is subjective whargarbl. Unsurprisingly alt medicine relies on lots of anecdotes because they are conspicuously lacking in the scientific proof department.
That is not what the /. crowed calls an anecdote :)
Saying "well it worked for me" or somesuch is subjective whargarbl. Unsurprisingly alt medicine relies on lots of anecdotes because they are conspicuously lacking in the scientific proof department.
Any examples, citations? I guess, no.
Cost free eBook I read (by iBook/Kobo/Amazon/ObookO/Gutenberg etc.): "The Green Odyssey" by Philip Jose Farmer.
If you say that to a qualified Physiotherapist, you'll be needing a funeral director. Chiropractors are quacks. They have zero legitimacy with medical professionals.
Some chiropractors are quacks, but they are not all woo vendors. Careful shopping is needed.
When they try to sell you everything under the sun, then you have BS. When they adjust your back and neck, and keep it to that, they do great.
I will agree with those who take issue with the come see me every 2-3 weeks ad infinitum. I don't need adjusting that much, just when the tensions build up too much.
"If it was invented after I was born, it is subject to my precious evaluation.
If it is something old, like knowledge acquired in the last 5 or 10 thousand years, well, that's essentially BS. If you wanna object to that conclusion, good luck in talking to others, 'cause that's my precious opinion. Oh, BTW, fsck you."
And when the general doctor and physiotherapist both recommend seeing a chiropractor first? Around here, they recommend you to a chiropractor for sprains, because they work wonders, assuming they're competent. Anecdotal, but I had point pains when I was younger. After a few years of having difficulty sitting in a chair comfortably for more than a few minutes, my mom brought me to a chiropractor because doctors did not deal with that kind of stuff. After 2-3 months, never had to go back.
My wife was injured in a car accident. Insurance paid her visits to the chiropractor 100% for as long as the chiropractor felt my wife should keep going. If chiropractors were ineffective, an insurance company of all things would not pay out.
It's impossible to prove anything correct, just to "prove" the likeliness of it being correct. If I had a problem that lasted years, never getting better and possibly worse, and after many visits to many different specialist doctors, then a single visit to a chiropractor makes it almost entirely go away. Nope, can't prove it, but it would be quite the coincidence.
What fucking shit hole country do you live in? I live in Canada. Local chiropractor was $45 per visit, less than 15 minutes. My Physiotherapy was $55 per visit (time varied 20-45 minutes) and decompression was $65 for about 50 minutes. $2000 with chiropractor and problem only worse and worse over months. Went to physiotherapist, had diagnosis and pain relief at the 7 minute mark of first visit. Fuck that chiropractor.
I am a doctor and I recommend chiropractors regularly. I see one myself. He's competent and can explain to me what he's doing, and then he does a minimal procedure which I can't do for myself which treats my symptoms. Do I see him for anything but better posture or relief from pain? No. Not all chiropractors are quacks. That's a very black and white view of things and usually reflects a lack of critical insight and understanding.
In some places in the world becoming a chiropractor requires more training than becoming a medical doctor - in fact in some places a chiropractor is a specialized doctor!
So no.
Opioids are used as painkillers and claiming they aren't used as painkillers (as you and KGIII did) is wrong. Sure, it may not have worked for you. Does that mean it doesn't work? _NO_
There's a reason there are many types of pain management. Some kinds of pain are very hard to reduce, some requires surgery, cutting off nerves, placing electrodes etc. So just because you had some pain that wasn't helped by opioids doesn't mean the ludicrous idea that opioids doesn't reduce pain itself is right.
ABEND = ABnormal END. From IBM OS/360. Allegedly chosen by IBM as a replacement of ABORT messages as abortions were being a hot/controversial topic in the US...
LOL. How predictable. "No true Scotsman..."
"National Security is the chief cause of national insecurity." - Celine's First Law
Predictable it was. Try to state something clearly and some autistic idiot derails a conversation with irrelevant logic.
No one cares about these fallacies. Go back to taking drugs with your retarded brother.
Tell that to my father who has been practicing osteopathy for close to 50 years and whose practice is all but indistinguishable from that of an M.D. The only thing he does that they don't is spinal manipulation for a very limited group of complaints.
Opioids are used as painkillers and claiming they aren't used as painkillers (as you and KGIII did) is wrong.
Nobody claimed they weren't used that way, just that they don't work that way. Reading comprehension is a wonderful thing, my friend.
Sure, it may not have worked for you. Does that mean it doesn't work? _NO_
What was claimed is that opioids don't take the pain away, and they don't. They, when they work at all, interfere with your perception of pain by blocking pain receptors, or activating pleasure receptors in your brain. This can make you believe that the pain has gone away, but those pain messages still travel through your nervous system and their presence can still interfere with motor control and concentration. That's on top of the opioids, themselves, dulling motor skills and concentration.
KGill's other claim, which is also absolutely correct, is that opioids carry with them certain other, adverse effects. Those include (in addition to reduced motor skills and concentration, stated above) addiction, tolerance (which increases required dosage, thereby increasing other negative effects), nausea and vomiting, drowsiness, itching, constipation, difficulty breathing, hyperalgesia (the big one that hits me with certain opioids), disruption of hormonal balance, confusion, hallucinations, delirium, urticaria, hypothermia, tachycardia, orthostatic hypotension, dizziness, headache, urinary retention, ureteric or biliary spasm, muscle rigidity, myoclonus, and flushing.
If you're taking any other depressant type drugs, you're more likely to suffer the above-mentioned negative effects; that includes experiencing more of them and intensifying them. All the while, you still have your pain, you just might not feel it as much. It didn't go away, because opioids don't take it away.
There's a reason there are many types of pain management. Some kinds of pain are very hard to reduce, some requires surgery, cutting off nerves, placing electrodes etc.
If managing pain is your goal, enjoy the opioids. Just realize that you don't manage something that's been taken away because, once it's been taken away, it's gone. If you have a joint that's slipped out of position and is pinching a nerve, you don't treat that with drugs, you re-align the joint and relieve the pressure on the nerve. That takes the pain away. If you'd rather just "manage" the pain, well, fuck, I say go for it. Just don't delude yourself into thinking it's actually gotten better.
So just because you had some pain that wasn't helped by opioids doesn't mean the ludicrous idea that opioids doesn't reduce pain itself is right.
Actually, it's not ludicrous and it's absolutely right. Ask any drug company how their opioid medications work, ask them if they reduce pain or reduce the perception of pain. Even the most crooked pharma rep will answer that one honestly.
And I'll remind you that pain signals exist for a reason. Pain indicates damage, or circumstances which may lead to damage.
When my L2 and L3 separate and part of the disc between them slips out, allowing them to compress and squeeze the nerve bundles that exit between them, I'm sure there is some combination of drugs that can reduce, possibly even eliminate, my perception of the resulting pain. However, that doesn't magically make the pain go away; it's still there, and I need to keep taking those drugs to keep masking it. It also doesn't fix the cause of the pain, which is a signal to my brain that critical nerve bundles are in jeopardy, nor does it act to protect those nerve bundles.
The correct treatment, as prescribed by an actual doctor, an MD, is to immobilize for a couple days and see if the disc pulls itself back into place. If that doesn't help
APK quotes people (including myself) without context and should not be trusted. Just thought you should know.
Slipped spinal disc, pinched nerve, dislocated joint, need I continue?
APK quotes people (including myself) without context and should not be trusted. Just thought you should know.
I've successfully used chiropractic adjustment and massage therapy for nearly 40 years to reduce episodic back pain with very satisfactory outcomes (ambulatory with no pharmaceuticals)...so pardon me is your opinion doesn't affect mine. We'll get along fine as long as you don't try to tell me what I need to do.
As in any profession there are good one and bad ones. I found that violent adjustment is not for me. Further, I don't know a single massage therapist I trust that would agree to adjust my spine. Do not conflate the two...they don't.
Ok how does one attribute ANY credibility to an article dishing a subject/position/profession/whatever which uses the following:
"As the legend goes, chiropractic medicine was born on September 18, 1895."
If you are going to use the language the article author used (tone/authority/etc) you might want to use part of your basis to be more than legend or as its also called folklore....
By I digress-let me explain:
I grew up in rural Texas raising cattle and teaching myself BASIC on a used Trash 80 with dual floppies. Xmas break of 8th grade the family took our sole skiing vacation Red River, NM where I got f\run over by a hot dogger who clipped me in my right knee from behind at a high rate of speed which resulted in me jamming my lumbar vertebrae to where a few hours on Xray my lumbars were canted from the impact to one side. take your right index finger and made a C shape with it and thats what they looked like.
We get home and I complain of lower back pain every time I have to handle anything over 50 pounds( daily activity of a kid raising cattle). Finally parents give in and take me to a ortho doc-does examine and Xrays-get clean bill of health.
Several years go by and as a punishment for I cant rememeber what is that I take a 10 pd sledgehammer and break rock our new plow has dung up in a grain field. I am to do this until I get told I can stop. I know I will be watched from a distance as this field was on the back 40 of our place.
I break rock with a diligence until I throw my right shoulder out to point it just dangles lifeless. SO I hoist the sledge up to my left shoulder and let gravity drop it to the rock. Dad notices this and comes barreling out to me in his truck assuming Im now clowning around and is planning to whip the shit out of me.
Instead I get taken to this sweet nice bear sized guy who puts my shoulder into place and aligns the rest of my spine.
Did it hurt Yes-was uit scary hell yes. Was it a good pain and would I recommend it to others -sure just dont go to the first chiro you find.
Chiropractors are just like any other profession-they come in all kinds, they have different focuses and treatment approaches. To a surgeon the obvious solution to any problem is to cut. Chiropractors look to adjust spinal alignments.
And if the article author had done unbiased research or any real research he would FIND there are valid peer reviewed scientifically valid research studies done on chiropractic care and treatments. I have read some of it. Cant remember the journals but I read in my chiro's office. I graduated with a minor in chemistry so I can recognize real research vs the crap that passes for it today. (Read this around 1990).
Chiro has its uses just like acupuncture (never wanted to be a pincushion so never tried it) -just like surgery works when you have bad gallstones.
After seeing a message therapist, my texting issues are behind me.
Whenever I have problems, I consult my Haitian Lugaru. Yes, sometime she is wrong, but doesn't charge as much as the certified quacks I do see.
Apparently the only one who is also a computer programmer and thus happened to chance across this level of garbage and misinformation puked out by the slashdot community. I can assure you there would be no chiropractic except for the whole foundation of failed medical patients that came into my office every day after spending multiples of thousands of dollars on dangerous drugs and unnecessary surgery, many of them maimed for life.
There's really nothing to say to these slurs and ignorant statements. It just goes to show what's out there. It's kind of sad actually.
The article doesn't actually say chrorpracty doesn't work. What it says is that the very top, most well-known chiropracters, push other sorts of nonsense (alkaline diet, probably crystals).
How about "real" doctors or "real" psychiatrists. The normals ones don't promote crap. But we're not talking about average chriopracters either. How about the doctors that have their own tv show (Phil) or that get on Oprah? Those well-known "real" doctors are always pushing something that's not always actually medical.
Apples and oranges. Cherry-picked examples.
Martin Gardner had included a section on "chiropractic medicine" in his book Fads and Falacies in the name of Science. He argued that it was BS too.
...richie - It is a good day to code.
Aren't there at least a couple of licensed chiropractors who can lick their own balls and bark at the Moon?
(I may be confusing homeopaths and chiropractors here. No great distinction.)
Birds are not dinosaur descendants;birds are dinosaurs, for all useful meanings of "birds", "are" and "dinosaurs"
Oh come on. You just got your ass kicked.
I've seen a number of them over the years. When my back gets out of line. When it does you can visually see when I walk that something's wrong. After a session, the spine is back in line and on its way to healing.
My Daughter had a neck injury. She'd used to fall to the floor screaming. Equestrian related injury. Took some years. She'd see the Chiro when needed. Today she's fine.
The alternative for a lot of these situation is either addictive type drugs or surgery. Don't let them cut you if you can help it.
Fuck. You made me click his website, now I am blind and have cancer.
I'm a good cook. I'm a fantastic eater. - Steven Brust
There are two things called "osteopathy". One is somewhat evidence-based and the other is not.
In the United States, you want to see an "osteopathic physician", not an "osteopath".
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No atheist deliberately becomes a priest, [...]
That's only because Unitarians prefer the term "minister".
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There's a difference between "osteopath" and "osteopathic physician". It's confusing, I know.
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One thing that a good chiropractor will do for you that a massage therapist typically won't (in my experience) is provide wellness counseling in the form of stretches and exercises you can do to speed along the healing process and behavioral changes to keep the pain away once it's gone.
So what you're saying is that your chiropractor practises unlicensed physiotherapy as well as unlicensed massage therapy?
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(1) A duly licensed chiropractor may manipulate and adjust the spinal column and other joints of the human body and in the process thereof a chiropractor may manipulate the muscle and connective tissue related thereto.
(2) As part of a course of chiropractic treatment, a duly licensed chiropractor may use all necessary mechanical, hygienic, and sanitary measures incident to the care of the body, including, but not limited to, air, cold, diet, exercise, heat, light, massage, physical culture, rest, ultrasound, water, and physical therapy techniques in the course of chiropractic manipulations and/or adjustments.
For reference, massage therapy is:
manual manipulation of soft body tissues (muscle, connective tissue, tendons and ligaments) to enhance a person’s health and well-being
which is covered by 302a(1) "and in the process thereof a chiropractor may manipulate the muscle and connective tissue related thereto" and physiotherapy is:
an independent primary care profession which assesses, plans and implements rehabilitative programs that improve or restore human motor functions, maximizes movement ability, relieves pain syndromes, and treats or prevents physical challenges associated with injuries, diseases and other impairments
which is covered by 302a(2) in its entirety.
So, no, that's not what I'm saying; he is most certainly licensed for what he does.
APK quotes people (including myself) without context and should not be trusted. Just thought you should know.
There are several things in the article that are true: Chiropractors do tend to push the envelope. However, there is a reason that they are on Staff with sports teams, etc.
I injured my right knee in College. Had trouble walking and pain in the knee. Went to my GP who sent me to a specialist who said surgery to fix it. I happened to go down to the beach where my mom sent me to her own specialist (free as she paid, heck was in university). The Chiropractor proceeded to inform me he was on staff with Atlanta Hawks (this was.. what 25 years ago now.. longer) and then worked on my knee for 6 sessions. I no longer had pain and had full strength. What he did was painful as he told me the problem was not the knee but the damage had not been removed in the supporting muscles. He basically pushed and did work that fixed the damage to almost perfect. I maintained a 5-10 degree outward angle as the support muscles had not healed exactly the original. It did not affect my sports, life, in fact I think the surgery would have been worse.
I also had a slipped disk in my back (twice) and time 1: went to regular doctor who gave me drugs... 3 days later I could walk again. The second time I went to chiropractor and walked out of the office. Reason? Slipped discs are back in place.. the problem is my body reacted to it, so she calmed my back and areas with electrical stimulation. My god.. it worked.
I have also had surgery on my elbow due to another sports injury. No pain, but I have lost strength. Before surgery I hit Homeruns regularly, After.. I have yet to hit one. I cant seem to get the speed/strength fully back into it. No pain so I dont complain. It was torn cartilage and so Chiropractor would not have helped I think.
So. Doctors are emergency medicine. I go to them all the time. Chiropractors are great for some things, just be careful... as with regular doctors you get a quack.
What do you call the person who graduated last in class in medical school?
Doctor.
I can program myself out of a Hello World Contest!!
I think chiropractors are mixed, and they run the gauntlet from kooks to legitimacy.
1. I have serious issues impairing movement and causing pain. And had a chiropractor identify the muscle, and the misalignment. Work the muscle, adjust the vertebrate. Suddenly, I went from a very limited range of motion and pain to being able to move and an 80% reduction in pain.
2. I have another chiropractor I've gone to periodically. This chiropractor takes an X-ray of all his patients. He identifies bone growths, anomalies, damage, etc. He does alignments, he also has some tools to adjust. He conducts range of motion tests. He identifies areas that are impaired. He prescribes particular exercises and stretches to improve range of movement.
So yes, chiropractic care can be very scientific and true medical care. But it can also be a lot of crap and pseudo-science.
BTW, for us programmers, one of the best exercises to alleviate a lot of my problems is to hold your head straight, and then pull back with your muscles while keeping your head level. You'll feel it stretch muscles at the very top of the neck where it connects to the base of the skull. This exercise, and just doing it a few times a day, made a tremendous difference. It helps counteract out constant staring down, up, etc. as PC users.
BJ Palmer did a great service by helping his fellow's relieve tensions in the bones thru adjustments to the skeletal frame. I don't give a damn if he did seances for recreation or not. This article is just a hit piece\black PR. I expected better new reporting from Slashdot in the future.
Screw this article! Dumb!
Chiropractic has now evolved into a technology blended in
With kinesiology and nutrition to form NRT. Nutritional Response Testing was developed by Dr Freddie Ulan and it works. See his YouTube videos, and be your own judge.
The Tech of adjustments to the skeletal frame has gone beyoned BJ Palmer in the 19 century. We now have NRT. Nutritional Response Testing developed by Dr Freddie Ulan. See his YouTube videos. It works. I highly recommend it. This article is nothing but a hit piece. I'm disappointed in Slashdot for this one
But the chiropractor I went to stated up front was to correct posture so you don't need to come back to him.
After seeing what I was doing to my spine and a few "corrections", my headaches have stopped, my lean is gone and I generally feel much better after he taught me techniques to improve posture.
No, it's pretty accurate. Clearly you've never been in severe pain. Yeah, opiates make the little pains disappear. The big ones, they just let you ignore. They're still there, but you don't have to pay attention to them.
It's like a device on the bus is constantly tripping an IRQ. The processor is bound responding to these constant interrupts. The opiate is like turning the IRQ lines off. The proc can do other things now, and the data from the device is still available, it just needs to be polled now. As we know, polling is less efficient, which is why opiates make you a little bit dumber at the time. But if you're in pain, it's a welcome trade.
You must have had a pretty easy and pain-free life to make that sort of statement.
The same can be said of western medicine, as well. Not everything works for everyone. Of course, it all comes down to treating the right problem with the right treatment; you don't fix a slipped disc with Vicodin just like you don't cure cancer by cracking a few joints in your back. Any doctor who prescribes Vicodin for a slipped disc is a quack, just as any chiropractor who claims they can cure cancer is a wacko.
True enough. But here's the rub: A physician who has prescribed Vicodin for a slipped disc without testing and trying to re-mediate the disc.... will A) Be sued. B) Have their license disciplined or suspended (if not pulled for something as grossly negligent as that.) C) Be condemned by the rest of the medical community for improper interventions. Even though the physician community does stick up and cover for each other, they generally do not in the face of gross incompetence. A chiropractor who claims that they can cure all sorts of maladies with adjustments when there is absolutely no scientifically tested proof of the validity of that therapy.... will A) Get more patients. B) Be lauded as a visionary in the alt-med community. C) Be allowed to continue to sell their snake oil alongside those who claim no such thing. There is never ANY repudiation from the chiropractic community of those who make those outrageous claims.
The difference? Primarily science.
Do you actually expect those who submit articles on /. to know their ass from a hole in the ground? If so, you really need to start paying attention.
Cracking your back and neck isn't anecdotal. It is almost as common as eating. Almost everyone, nearly 100% of human beings, crack their own backs or necks back into place. A huge percentage do it daily.
Sometimes we can't adjust our bones ourselves, however. A person's bones aren't aligned for whatever reason. Maybe we pulled them out lifting something. We got in a car accident. We fell and landed weird.
Putting the bones back in place is not bullshit. If a bone breaks, we put it back into place. If we don't it heals in the wrong place and is misshapen for life. The muscles and tendons around this can also be altered for life.
Sometimes bones get out of place without breaking, usually at a joint. Because the bones are out of place, joints can rub, muscles can get tight, tendons can be stretched, causing pain. If left in the wrong place, muscles and joints can heal in the wrong place and be altered.
Now, stating that: "Claiming that putting the bones back in place can cure cancer is bullshit" is something I can agree with. However, I will concede that overall health of a person contributes to a person's risk of cancer and having bones in proper position is part of overall health. But any additional correlation should be treated as a fraudulent claim.
Why play woo roulette with a chiropractor? There is no reason that a chiropractor is required at any stage in the process. Need a nice back rub? Go to a masseur. Need treatment for a physical problem? Go to a physiotherapist.
What do you do when the "legit" healthcare profession says that there's nothing to be done, and it's going to cost you "I don't know" amount of money to go see a "legit" professional (but certainly hundreds to thousands of dollars), and a chiropractor is offering to give it a go for $120?
Over a decade ago, a chiropractor helped my wife with significant back problems which multiple "legit" healthcare providers hadn't done anything for, and you want to know what the biggest help was? The chiropractor actually sat down and listened to her, rather than immediately telling her what the situation was.