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'Chiropractors Are Bullshit' (theoutline.com)
From an article on The Outline, submitted by two readers: If you're one of the approximately 80 percent of Americans who have suffered from back pain, you may have been referred to a chiropractor for medical help. In the modern-day internet landscape, you'll find chiropractic celebrities like Dr. Josh Axe (1.7 million Facebook followers), Dr. Billy DeMoss (20,000 Facebook followers), and Dr. Eric Berg (472,000 YouTube subscribers) giving advice that goes beyond managing spinal issues. Both in their offices and on social media, chiropractors have adapted to a marketplace that's demanding more than just pain management: they extol the virtues of an "alkaline diet," tell you how to manage stress with detoxing, and wax scientific about the adrenal gland. [...] Chiropractic care, I'm sorry to say, is little more than the buffoonery of a 19th-century lunatic who derived most of his medical theory from seances. It has not evolved much since its creation. Chiropractic beliefs are dangerously far removed from mainstream medicine, and the vocation's practices have been linked to strokes, herniated discs, and even death. Chiropractors can't replace your doctor, and I'm amazed that they're still even allowed to practice. [...] Though some chiropractors are now making an effort to introduce evidence-based practices into their treatment, chiropractic as a whole hasn't evolved like other areas of medicine -- with hypotheses, experimentation, and peer review. Instead, it was birthed by a strange combination of hocus pocus, guesswork, and strongly held religious beliefs.
I do just fine with my foam roller and inversion table.
sig: sauer
I used to go to the chiropractor for my back. It hurt, but afterwards I felt better.
Then I started massage therapy instead. I felt better, and it didn't hurt, either. Win-win.
Now I just go sit in the sauna. Just as effective, much cheaper. Win-win-win. All win for me.
"First they came for the slanderers and i said nothing."
But.
Mmmmm... your complimentary x-rays indicate we'll be needing to see you twice a week for three months to, ahem, straighten you out.
Happiness in intelligent people is the rarest thing I know.
Ernest Hemingway
They would get the same or better benefits from a professional masseuse, as demonstrated by the studies linked in the article, plus hundreds more. They also would have significantly less chance of death.
Ha ha, had to look that one up!
Just ask anyone who could barely walk into the Chiropractor's office, and walk out pain-free with a smile.
Chiropractors may be effective at giving temporary relief for back pain, so if you just want the pain to go away for a few days they may be a good solution. But they likely aren't fixing the underlying problem, and there is no evidence or plausible mechanism for fixing your digestion and curing cancer by popping your back.
which claims to be the largest chiropractic college in the world. They claim they can cure cancer and the common cold with spinal subluxation. Of course chiropractors are fraud.
If you treat them like highly skilled masseuses, then they’re pretty damn good. Before I moved away from SC, I used to get amazing massages there with students about once a month for a good price.
http://www.webmd.com/hypertension-high-blood-pressure/news/20070316/chiropractic-cuts-blood-pressure#1
March 16, 2007 -- A special chiropractic adjustment can significantly lower high blood pressure, a placebo-controlled study suggests.
"This procedure has the effect of not one, but two blood-pressure medications given in combination," study leader George Bakris, MD, tells WebMD. "And it seems to be adverse-event free. We saw no side effects and no problems," adds Bakris, director of the University of Chicago hypertension center.
Not all chiropractic is bad.
My GP is cross-trained to perform chiropractic adjustments.
Once, I was unable to straighten my back due to nerve entrapment and possibly bones actually not lining up; this may have to do with being rear-ended a while back, but that’s immaterial to the conversation.
A few agonizing back-rocking movements with a pillow and a fist, and two neck-twists, and I was physically capable of straightening without grinding bone against bone. Add a shot of some kind of potent muscle relaxant, and suddenly I’m capable of straightening my back.
Perhaps the best approach is to incorporate the evidence-based portions of chiropractic methods into a traditional clinical setting like my GP has done? I guess I’m suggesting that we don’t throw the baby out with the bathwater, pretty much. Sometimes the problem really is a subluxation, after all, even if they’re not responsible for the majority of human illness.
This article spends almost its entire length going on and on about things like alternative medicine, but almost nothing about the actual resolution of back pain, except with respect to children (which, the article acknowledges, is not something all chiropractors endorse).
I don't buy into any of the nonsense, and my chiropractor doesn't either, but he uses the Impulse tool which doesn't hurt when it makes adjustments and I leave feeling much better than when I arrived. Before making any adjustment, he massages the back muscle to loosen it up and prevent damage. He's given me exercises to strengthen my back muscles to help keep things in alignment--and they work to the point that I go back about once per year when I do something really stupid and throw something completely out of alignment. He specifically said in my first appointment that if I'm coming back twice a week for years, he's not done his job properly.
Several years ago when I popped my scapula out of place while stretching and pinched a nerve (8-9 on the pain scale, didn't sleep a wink that night), the chiropractor put it back in place and the sharp stab instantly became a dull ache that went away after a few days.
I fully accept the idea that there are con artists out there who do the things mentioned in this article. I do not accept that it is universal or that chiropractors are incapable of providing any benefit whatsoever.
I don't pretend to know all the in and out of medicine but I have learned one very important thing: chiropractors make you feel better for a day but a physical therapist will help you fix that which is causing you pain. A physical therapist may have you do a certain exercise every morning or some jazz but it prevents you have having painful issues later that would send you crying to a chiropractor.
Anons need not reply. Questions end with a question mark.
If someone is able to walk they can hang from a chinup bar or perform some yoga moves to address their pain. Chiropractic may not be BS in that some people like to be "adjusted" but, it is not a science-based medical treatment.
In all seriousness:
I don't know about the diets they extol, or any other homeopathic remedies they might have,
It's in the summary, so you should. And it is clearly bullshit on the order of anti-vax conspiracy theories or "foodbabe" bullshit. Because why stick to one type of bullshit if you're already a professional bullshitter?
Just ask anyone who could barely walk into the Chiropractor's office, and walk out pain-free with a smile....I know people who've been really happy after their "adjustments."
Good, but that's anecdotal like you can easily find for qigong or crystals. Actual evidence suggests very slight help for a small number of problems. If the people who were barely walking in had chronic lower back pain and were happy and pain free afterward, it was in their head, and they'd be better off doing core exercises probably.
They may be mostly hokey, but so are the alternatives. There's often no quick universal fixes for back problems, period. But the back is kind of like TV reception on old-fashioned sets (and sometimes cellphones): the weather, time-of-day, antenna position, and position and quantity of viewers can significantly affect the reception.
Experimenting by moving the antenna, furniture, and viewers around can at least temporarily fix TV reception. We called it the "fix-it dance" and "air Twister" back in the day. (Steve Jobs and Woz once rigged a college TV to screw with viewers using the idea. They gave themselves away by laughing too hard at posing victims.)
Chiropractors are "experienced fiddlers" who do the fix-it-dance with backs.
Table-ized A.I.
Anecdotes are not data, etc...
However I screwed my back up something awful by pulling a sledge load across a floor - exactly what you NEVER should do - and a chiropractor had me walking and feeling not nearly as painful after one visit. After 3 visits I was "cured". That was 12 years ago, been fine ever since.
So it worked for me. However, as you point out nobody should be expecting them to cure cancer or diabetes or acne or any bullshit like that.
Just like code smells, there are quack smells, and with chiropractors your quack smell needs to be on high alert.
I've had one who was outright incompetent, and another who was scamming for expensive x-rays to diagnose a neck shape 90% of the modern population has. The three hot chicks at reception was my first clue (they supervise a very nice neck-therapy gym). Singapore Airlines does not hire younger.
The gym was free for a while after your first visit. I noticed the Chiclets receiving "engagement" coaching from a high-energy, type A chiropractor on staff (and apparently a permanent gym rat). They seemed to think it was all a big game.
I've also had some pretty good chiropractors. One who was effective at short term relief (about six visits per year).
But then another who treated the same problem differently, and now I'm down to about two visits a year for that region.
I still have other problems, but I'm especially tall (long in the back to be precise) and I've also got some cervical degeneration.
Like anything else, if people blindly enrich the quacks, there will ever be more where that came from. (This ancient observation did us a whole lot of good curing the spam problem, didn't it?)
Chiropractic college (in Canada) is no cakewalk. There's a lot of good ones out there. But until they have an established clientele, the incentives are almost universally aligned to an initial sequence of six visits per new patient, just to get you normalized (and properly prepared to learn about your next problem).
I've often found two visits, about a week apart, to be more cost effective than one visit, if I need it badly enough. Beyond that, the extra sessions are primarily revenue visits. But that's just my own experience, relative to my own needs, and the practitioners I've dealt with.
Bottom line, you've got to deploy your own quack smell. Accept no substitute or new car smell.
Exactly, I am one of them. I used to have chronic back pain. Eventually I got to a point when I could barely sit on a chair for 10 minutes. So I went to see a chiropractor.
He guessed scoliosis and checked with an x-ray. I got significantly better on day one. I went there about three times a week for about a month. I still go every month or so.
Never had back pain anywhere near I used to have for 10 years before.
Am I imagining it? I really don't think so.
Are other treatment just as effective or better? Maybe. Probably.
Can it cure cancer or the flu? I haven't met a chiropractor who claim they can. Maybe there are some BS-artist. But we have people claiming they have a perpetual energy machine, does that make physics BS?
"Chiropractors may be effective at giving temporary relief for back pain, so if you just want the pain to go away for a few days they may be a good solution."
The mainstream medical equivalent is to prescribe a dozen opiate pills to achieve the same result, but with significant downsides. Which is bullshit?
"National Security is the chief cause of national insecurity." - Celine's First Law
I know people who go to chiropractors because it is treatment they can afford. Regular doctors might get better result if you throw enough time and money at the problem but if your budget maxes out before you get any effective treatment, what are you left with?
Of course, it's impossible to prove that the treatment did nothing for you and you would have got better on your own, but hey, why not?
And yet a real physical therapist gets better results with less visits for a lower cost (when you factor in the fact they can actually fix problems.)
I'm a good cook. I'm a fantastic eater. - Steven Brust
I use call girls. Most of them will do a massage, and I feel *much* better after I've gotten a "release".
I constantly see articles like this on the internet decrying the the evil unscientific ways of chiropractors, but I have never encountered in in the real world. This is despite having many friends and family members that have seen many different chiropractors in multiple states. Some that work with large practices, others that look like old hippies working part time out of their home. Yet not of them, not one, has claimed to cure anything other than skeletal/muscular problems like chronic back pain, bad posture/gaits, legitimate referred pain, etc.
I've read about the history of chiropractic medicine, and yeah it is pretty ridiculous. Just like the early history of psychology and other medical practices. And I'm sure there probably are still a few quacks out there, but most of the quackery that you linked is also espoused by celebrity MDs, not just or even mostly chiropractors. It seems like the vast majority of the field has moved on past their unsavory roots; when will the internet crusaders move on as well?
Bullshit.
My Dr gave me a referral to a physical therapist that actually helped correct the problem.
Next you are going to tell us the magic crystals and diterary bullshit that chiropractors deal in works too, right?
I'm a good cook. I'm a fantastic eater. - Steven Brust
I agree except when the thing I need is my spine put back in place. When I was young I would sometimes do something stupid like lift too large a load or lift off center loads (e.g. lift 100# of roofing while standing sideways on a sloped roof) and my back would pop out, I've had x-rays (independently) and then gone for an adjustment and felt great until I did the next stupid thing. One lady turned me away when I got an MRI of my neck, she showed me the problem and explained that there was nothing she could do for that type of issue, foraminal narrowing. For that I now have a home traction unit, after having physical therapy do mechanical traction a couple times for me. The home unit works great and costs almost nothing.
So, for me there was a time when what Chiropractors did was what needed to be done, I fear those days are over.
You have the right to remain sentient. If you give up the right to remain sentient, you will be elected to public office
My understanding is that there are two schools of Chiropractors. One is Quackery and the other is Legitimate Medicine. This breeds a lot of confusion. Added to this is the fact that peoples Spines and Discs and Nerves and injuries to such are each unique, what works for one person may not work for another.
It's never lupus.
Chiropracty, like acupuncture, is a practice which seems to have a kernel of truth hidden within an aura of woo and it's a shame that science hasn't yet been able to separate them. The physical manipulations used by chiropractors do seem to be helpful to a lot of people, the crystals maybe less so.
As a bunch of " hocus pocus, guesswork, and strongly held religious beliefs." Aside from things like humor theory, astrology and alchemical theories were freely mixed into medieval and Renaissance medicine. For centuries there was little reason not to prefer alternative medicinal theories to academic medicine.
But the fact that conventional medical training was done at great academic centers gave it a long term advantage. As empiricism became the basis of scientific inquiry, medicine adopted it too. Medical empiricism has never been quite so robust as scientific empiricism, but by 1900 you were probably better off with a medical doctor than with the village herbalist, faith healer, or random quack. A hundred years earlier that'd have been a dubious proposition.
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dd
It depends on what the issue is. Yes, there are a lot of Chiropractors who indulge in all kinds of quackery. But Chiropractors are licensed to take X-rays and diagnose issues with the back that don't require surgery. People "throw their back out" doing something they shouldn't have done, and injure their back in such a way that can be solved by a chiropractic adjustment. Think of the equivalent of a jammed finger or dislocated shoulder as one example. Perhaps something like that may solve itself eventually, or perhaps a masseuse might be able to deal with it, but masseuses don't have anywhere near the training a Chiropractor has, and are typically not trained for non muscle related injuries (and masseuse/massage therapy training is significantly more varied across the states than that required for a licensed Chiropractor), whereas a Chiropractor can handle both muscle and non muscle related issues.
A competent Chiropractor can take an X-ray and will refer you to a doctor if there is an injury that is not suitable for their skills, e.g. surgery is required. But back surgery should be the absolute last resort for fixing a back problem. You should always get a second or even third opinion before having back surgery.
I'd avoid any Chiropractor that wants you to visit on an ongoing basis. If that is the case, you would be right in that a masseuse would be a better and cheaper alternative. I have a Chiropractor who is willing to deal with a specific issue and solve it and that's it. I've visited him for a total of 3 sessions for two different back problems in the last 10 years. There's nothing temporary about the relief I got.
The mainstream medical equivalent is to prescribe a dozen opiate pills to achieve the same result, but with significant downsides. Which is bullshit?
False dichotomy. Why can't both be bullshit?
... anything else. That it is an old tradition only has to do with the fact that knowlege about the skeleton and the muscular body is easy to come by simply by looking at it and pocking around. British Chiropracters are know to have a solid anatomical and related medical knowlege and there are methods know that actually are a few hundred years old that work.
That there also is a lot of foo-foo wah-wah and homeopathy nonsense around with Chiropracters is a problem, but manual therapy itself isn't pure non-sense. For instance, I'd take a very old and traditional Tai massage over a modern medical massage just about any time, even though they too have some magic stuffed mixed into their very solid tradition.
Truth be told, manual therapy works and if you're not entirely stupid, can observe and learn a little about anatomy you can figure out a lot about your self. However, and this is just as true: Chiropractice is nigh pointless if not accompanied by systematic training to handle the problematic regions of your body. If you don't do that, you'll always be going back to the Chiropracter. A good one in my book would know how to give good training and excersize advice.
My 2 cents.
We suffer more in our imagination than in reality. - Seneca
If you are into alternative medicine that involves the “manipulation of muscle tissue and bones”, I’d suggest seeing a Doctor of Osteopathic Medicine (D.O.) rather than a quack chiropractor. I’m not a fan of osteopathy but, at least, that field has properly educated medical doctors (the aforementioned D.O.s): in the U.S., those are normal physicians with an added specialisation in osteopathy, and they will therefore have the ability to use the gamut of modern medicine like any physician. (On the other hand, I’d suggest avoiding the non-D.O. plain “osteopaths”, who are not physicians.)
One of my best friends decided to become a chiropractor, years ago -- so I got to learn a fair bit about that whole process and the challenges it presented.
First off? Yeah, it's true. A whole lot of people become a chiropractor because they're looking for a profession they can make a lot of money in, without all the studying required for a genuine medical degree. This isn't unlike a lot of people who go into dentistry though, either. In other words, it's not really a reason to write the whole field off as useless. It just means you've got to navigate the "minefield" of people who care more about buying their next luxury car or vacation home than your health.
But the other issue is, chiropractors do generally struggle to get well established. The guys with the big practices running ads on the radio constantly are the few that the rest of them aspire to be someday. People like my buddy started out genuinely wanting to help people manage their pain without resorting to getting all doped up on pain medications. That's, IMO, pretty legitimate. Problem is -- that doesn't quite pay the bills. His chiropractic college he graduated from put him almost 6 figures in student loan debt, and then he had to take out the small business loan for his own office and equipment. What usually happens is the struggling chiro says, "You know.... I could really use something to pad my revenue and pay the rent on this place. I know this lady who does acupuncture who needs an office to work out of....", or "Nobody ever got hurt taking a few essential vitamins and minerals. I should start selling some of these on the side." Before long, their practice is hawking all sorts of nonsense alternative medicine (because there's a demand for that from those who believe in it), and it's all justifiable if you view it as the power of the placebo effect and state of mind playing a role in how healthy you feel.
I think some people truly do get benefit from chiropractors, and that's a big reason insurance companies will still pay out for visits to them after car accidents. If it was pure quackery, they would have refused to give them a dime long ago. I used to know a gal, for example, who had some serious back problems. On a good day, she'd be up walking or running about like nothing was wrong at all. But she had occasional situations where her back would literally seize up, and she couldn't straighten herself back up after bending over, or found she couldn't get up out of bed in the morning. Traditional doctors didn't have a whole lot to offer her, besides highly addictive pain pills.They put her on disability so she got her monthly payment from SSI and didn't have to work. But really, that whole thing was a rather sad "solution". (90% of the time, she was as mobile as anyone else. There had to be a way she could hold down a job despite her issues.) She figured out that regular visits to a chiropractor really helped loosen up tight back muscles and certain adjustments gave her temporary pain relief and less likelihood of her back totally freezing up on her. She couldn't afford to go often, but did so when she could get a deal from a chiropractor who took pity on her situation.
The blurb up top states "... chiropractic as a whole hasn't evolved like other areas of medicine ..."
The proper term for the practice should be chiropracty. I don't know how "chiropractic" came about, but it is commonly used.
20+ yrs ago - for a week my back hurt so bad I could hardly stand, riding a motorcycle a chore. I went to a chiropractor.
He put me sideways and tried to bend or bow my back. third try I farted and my back fell into place; hasn't been a problem since.
but I did take a skeptical look at the gadget with flashing LED's that he first ran over my body.
The masseuse and massage therapist are different. The latter get mad when you call them the former. However, the former will give you a happy ending and the latter will not. Confusing the two will probably get you arrested.
"So long and thanks for all the fish."
You're right, but your conclusion isn't. Neither is BS, both work. I used BS in relation to the headline - which itself is BS, generalizing "chiropractors" to include fringe therapies well beyond what many (most?) chiropractors practice. It's painting with a very, very, broad brush. One could just as easily point to questionable practices by a subset of MDs, there are many to chose from. It's a case of invalid generalization. What's next, picking on osteopaths?
I see it as a spectrum with increasing training, and a difference in focus - physical therapists, chiropractors, osteopaths, MDs (although the OD/MD distinction has lessened over time). There are physical maladies which can be helped with physical manipulation in lieu of drugs or invasive surgery, which is what MDs tend to push. The article was written by someone with a biased agenda.
"National Security is the chief cause of national insecurity." - Celine's First Law
Meh... Opiates make you not care about trivial things like pain. If you still care about the pain, you haven't taken enough. They don't take pain away, you just don't care about it. They are kinda awesome like that.
"So long and thanks for all the fish."
One of the prime therapies that chiropractors do is using electrical stimulation. You end up feeling better, at least for a while. You can buy cheap "tens" units, google for "tens unit" cheap and they do the same thing, and you can use them while mobile, not just lying on your back. Make sure to get the electrode pads as well if you are in constant pain, but IMHO, ever house should have one, just like many other first-aid measures.
I don't think I've ever seen squiggly onhover animated links like at The Outline.
Here are some other interesting styles:
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https://tympanus.net/Developme...
Allowed to practice? Dude, the first GOOP cult reunion just happened. Chiropractors will at least give you a rough spanking or massage, and try sell some snake oil or something. There are so many things worse regarding health and "alternative medicine" that I think it's pretty understandable why chiropractors are kinda overlooked. :P
Not that I'd fall for shit like that, but you know.
I go to a chiropractor periodically; if they can't do what needs to be done in two or three sessions, it likely won't help.
But, after I ditched the first quack (Schwartz on Sepulveda), I found a pretty good one who helped me better understand my muscles and what is causing my pain. It is 50-50 on if I come away feeling better, and when I do massages most aren't really properly qualified to address my issues. I recommend him to my friends, and afterwards they are generally appreciative of the care given.
The issue with the majority of back pain is in how people walk. I wish that had been adequately explained to me in actionable terms 20 years ago!
But going to a chiropractor for nutritional health advice... well, whatever. I (visibly) roll my eyes when my chiropractor starts going on about that crap.
True, you can walk out with a smile. However an osteopath will do the same thing, or a good therapeutic massage. The original chiropractic belief is that disease derives from a misaligned spine. This has toned down somewhat but it still has some of the same core beliefs in the true believer chiropracters. Though they tend to focus on back pain where there are indeed results, you can still find those who think it will help relieve asthma for instance. It is still "alternative medicine" though, just like acupuncture and homeopathy. Just because it can reduce back pain symptoms does not mean it's a real science.
But everyone should already know this stuff!
An osteopath will be able to recommend all sorts of treatments. Those trained in therapeutic massage and physical therapy have just as much training. There are the true believer chiropractors ("straights") on one end who should be avoided, and those on the other extreme that are basically using modern medical techniques but who call themselves chiropractors because so much of America is convinced that "chiropractor" means "back doctor".
There is evidence that chiropractic techniques may help with some back pain issues. But probably more important is that many chiropractors aren't the true believers and will also use modern medical techniques (ice packs, massage, etc). Some studies have shown that even effective chiropractic treatments to be no better than conventional treatments, but if the chiropractor is cheaper maybe consider it.
Like many alternative medicines, it's generally safe so it won't cause harm if used sparingly. Go for a visit or two and if it helps great. But don't get sucked into the core chiropractic belief, don't neglect seeing a real doctor, etc. At least most US chiropractors do recommend seeing real doctors, a big plus over homeopaths.
Hmm, mainstream medical equivalent is physical or massage therapy.
"Chiropractor" is not the latin term for "back doctor". They're not the same thing as physical therapists or osteopaths. The origin of chiropractic was about being able to affect general health through the spine - they did not even want to be called doctors so that they would not be accused of practicing medicine without a license.
Some of the first oppositions to vaccination came from chiropractors by the way.
The history of chiropractic was not founded in medicine. They rejected germ theory and believed that general health could be affected by spinal adjustments. That's the foundation of the philosophy, it is not "fringe" except that it has become a minority view. It would be better I think if a lot of modern chiropractors stopped using the name, then the patients could more easily determine who's the quack and who just uses the name for marketing purposes because so many patients don't know the history.
(just like homeopaths, they have a lot of patients who don't know the history, they just see the "all natural ingredients" part and assume it must be good)
Steamy goop apparently.
There's a lot of overlap between a good chiropractor and a physical therapist. They both use many of the same techniques (stretching, massage, exercises, etc. to stop and eventually reverse certain types of injuries).
There are also significant differences, of course. Physical therapists cover a broader range of issues, including things like learning how to walk again after a stroke. But as a result, they're also typically a lot more expensive, so for minor, chronic injuries (e.g. "programmers' back"), a chiropractor is generally a better choice.
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LOL Those are the ones with certification and education. Anyone can be a masseuse. ;-)
"So long and thanks for all the fish."
They might pull crap in California or New York, but I've never seen a chiropractor recommend scented candles, hugs, or witchcraft. Just a few adjustments here and there for about half an hour as needed and send you out the door. All a doctor is going to do, if they don't schedule a chiropractor, is prescribe you an opiod. Pharmaceutical companies are getting pissed at alternative medicine and you wouldn't believe how many of them are forking the bill for these "studies" and conferences to descredit people. I don't condone this personally, but here's an example with Marijuana: https://theouterlinux.com/2016.... Yes it's on my site, but I like to keep an open mind if the arguments are sound. In a nutshell, people are switching to medical marijuana instead of opioids and fighting that battle has become a lost cause for pharmaceutical companies. Some zeitgeist work out for the better, most for the worst. So now, pharmaceutical companies are attacking every alternative out there. To their credit though, A LOT of alternatives are "snake oil" and having the the purest form of a drug, even if synthetic, rather than from tree bark, is much better for you.
"The history of chiropractic was not founded in medicine. "
So it's different than barbers using leeches to remove the ill humors? You say that as if it's a good thing.
"National Security is the chief cause of national insecurity." - Celine's First Law
Modern doctors do not call themselves barbers.
Agreed.
I was very skeptical of chiropractors until I needed one. In grad school I would walk several miles to and from campus every day and somehow kept spraining the inside of my ankle. I saw multiple GPs, PT specialists, orthopedists, etc At the time grad students got free health insurance and I was referred to the PhD/MDs that were part of the med school on campus who were supposedly some of the best in their fields. I'd be fine for a week or two and then I'd be back on the crutches. Finally my wife suggested I try her chiro.
At the first visit, he figured out by watching me walk over to his exam room one leg was longer than the other by a little over an inch and I would pronate as I walked to compensate. After adjusting me, he said it would take 5 more visits. Before the fifth visit, he said I needed to get orthodics to compensate for the difference that couldn't be fixed by straightening me out. Now, unless I do something stupid that causes me not to wear my orthodics, I'm fine. I've had no more mysterious ankle sprains.
I don't know how this isn't scientific. He took measurements, formulated a plan, did adjustments that reduced pain and eliminated the swelling and inflammation without pharmaceuticals, got to the root problem, and referred me to a specialist who created custom orthodics to solve the underlying problem.
In my mind this is way better than the traditional medical approach of treating the symptoms with drugs and not really addressing the underlying problems.
I was never offered specific dietary advice other than lose a few pounds, but I was overweight from long days and eating poorly while slaving away for my PhD advisor, so that was to be expected. No crystals, no fancy sensors, no continuous treatments for the rest of my life.
Since then I have been more open to other "alternative" medical treatment. I used to have horrible insomnia... I saw sleep specialists, I was sent to a psychologist because it just had to be stress, and finally a GP told me I had reached the limits of modern pharmacology. A friend referred me to an acupuncturist. On my first visit, he said "looking at the condition of the skin, you're short on these neurotransmitters". I was skeptical so I had the levels tested and a week of supplements later I was sleeping 8 hours per night for the first time in decades.
Do I think that releasing my Chi will suddenly grant me immunity to the flu? No. Do I think my accupuncturist is an experienced specialist who thinks outside of the standard flowchart most doctors follow? Yep.
That's the key to everything. Find the experts that get real referrals. Do your homework and don't just dismiss things without it. Regardless of the field there are a lot of pretenders out there. I've seen incompetent people in a lot of areas... IT providers who can't patch a server, contractors who can't safely install anything, Doctors who miss the simple because they are trained to look at a problem through a specific lens are no different.
Went through a period of three years of serious back problems in my early 20's. I was just about dragging one leg behind me 25 days a month. I've got a pretty high pain threshold but the pain was so intense that there were times I considered suicide. On the worst days, getting out of bed as an epic struggle. Traditional doctors told me there didn't really seem to be anything wrong with me and just kept writing me scripts for painkillers. That left me with a raging addiction and the doctors eventually washed their hands of me, forcing me out to the streets to buy drugs or be dope sick. I decided to go to a Chiropractor even though every fiber of my being thought it was bullshit. I reached a threshold where I would have tried anything....no matter how ridiculous the treatment sounded. Three weeks later, my back pain was gone. Forever. I've never gone back for additional treatment. I know, I know, "The plural of anecdote"...blah blah.
Was it just time that my back fixed itself? Possibly. All I know is that I could walk and even play sports again. My life changed forever. The addiction to pain killers? That lasted some time after that. Truly, they didn't even really take the pain away but damn are they an awesome high.
What the fuck Chiropractor has this author been going to? Some new age one? Mine has a degree is biology and teaches at a university. She knows how joints and the skeletal system works and actually fixes problems.
Exactly, it is all straw man bullshit pretending that chiropractors are witch doctors, when all of the chiropractors that I've visited were only offering to straighten my spine, something that relieves the pain in about 25% of people.
Real chiropractors in your community don't claim to replace doctors or treat other conditions.
That is as relevant as talking about Freud to discredit a modern therapist.
No, chiropractors aren't back doctors; they're joint alignment specialists.
It doesn't matter what somebody calls themselves, it matters what they're doing. That's why the "origins attack" is so blatantly stupid. It is like doubting gravity because Newton engaged in alchemy.
Your claim is ignorant, irresponsible, and wrong.
Contribute to civilization: ari.aynrand.org/donate
Using "birth" as a verb is the mark of an illiterate.
Contribute to civilization: ari.aynrand.org/donate
I had some relatively minor - most of the time, sometimes not minor at all - trouble with back pain for well over 10 years.
A physical therapist fixed me right up. It took over a year, and I was doing the exercises she recommended every day, EVERY day, for over a year.
also too, massage is extremely useful. i find that it provides very nice temporary relief and it makes it easier to keep things from getting out of whack.
the problem, as is often the case, is that you need a good physical therapist and good LMT.
Absolute statements are never true
basically using modern medical techniques but who call themselves chiropractors because so much of America is convinced that "chiropractor" means "back doctor".
Sounds like a priest who does not believe in God in the literal sense, but likes the ceremony.
this is the pot calling the kettle black.
MDs sell pseudoscience even though they have peer review, and allegedly use "scientific method."
they found out money influences the outcomes of their studies. they always find something that's harmful and not effective, safe and effective. they lie about the actual data in their summaries, and hide the actual data releasing only falsified summaries. many of these abuses are most exposed in the psychiatric industry, where deadly brain damaging drugs that actually prevent recovery, reduce recovery, and induce schizophrenia are the standard medical treatment while more effective less intrusive methods aren't used.
we have affidavits, 20 year studies, and more that have debunked psychiatry, yet the entire field of MD medicine continues prescribing deadly psychiatric drugs and concocting fake medical science to support itself.
the United Nations supports the field of antipsychiatry, and in several places in Europe they have abandoned the fraudulent western "medical model" in favor of alternatives, because it works better. the UN has repeatedly called for the United States to stop itself, labeling psychiatry torture, asking for an ending of the game of deadly medication.
yet MDs continue to do what they do calling themselves more scientific than chiropractors? hey at least chiropractors work on people functionally, choosing less disabling less deadly treatment options than MDs. MDs prefer to set up for profit treatment models involving using unnecessary surgeries to remove body tissue, and medication that does not help and only induces illnesses - both options cannot be reversed, whereas chiropractors choose to try to fix peoples bodies without the deadly unneeded mutilation, or at least give you something to help you cope better with your issues.
here's a few links:
psychiatric drugs reduce recovery from 80% to 5%: https://www.madinamerica.com/2...
UN asks for psychiatry to stop using drugs on people, to develop a new approach: https://www.madinamerica.com/2...
affidavits on deadly problems caused by psychiatry: http://psychrights.org/Litigat...
http://psychrights.org/Litigat...
http://psychrights.org/States/...
cchr.org madinamerica.com psychrights.org mindfreedom.org
whoever allowed this fraud post on Slashdot needs murdered. seriously.
trumpsweapon.com drrobertduncan.com
Actually, I can sometimes fix my own digestive issues by working my own back through yoga. I don't see why a chiropractor couldn't do that for someone. But curing cancer, agreed. That's not very likely.
The fact is that the back is a bit of a mystery to conventional medicine as well. It turns out most of those MRI signs of back pain appear equally frequently in people who report never having back pain. Back surgery is still a bit hit or miss with potentially devastating consequences for failure. The constant ads for the currently vogue back procedure don't exactly lend any air of professionalism.
More common than you'd think - there's a support group for atheist priests. No atheist deliberately becomes a priest, but there are many priests that lose their faith and remain stuck in the profession because it's the only field that hold qualifications and experience in. So they do what many nonbelievers in highly religious communities do: Fake it.
You would have a point if chiropractors as a majority repudiated their hokum origins and did not continue perpetuating them.
My chiropractor works with a GP, a physical therapist, and an RN.
Chiropractic medicine is at least as effective as mainstream medicine at treating lower back pain.
This doesn't mean that it works for treating cancer or whatever else the quacks peddle.
Look at what the research says:
http://www.nhs.uk/Conditions/c...
If they never said it, they aren't the ones you're talking about and they have nothing to repudiate. And that makes it your hokum, not theirs.
There's good ones and bad ones, and I've been to both. The guy I go to now doesn't try to claim chiropratic care can fix and and every thing that might go wrong and he's very straightforward about the limitations of the treatment he provides. The guy I used to see, on the other hand, I could have come in with a hole in my aorta and he'd have tried to massage it out.
One thing that a good chiropractor will do for you that a massage therapist typically won't (in my experience) is provide wellness counseling in the form of stretches and exercises you can do to speed along the healing process and behavioral changes to keep the pain away once it's gone. My experience has borne out that the pain will go away if I don't do the stretches and exercises or incorporate any of the behavioral changes; but, it does take longer without the stretches and exercises; and it's only as permanent as my willingness to adopt the behavioral changes.
The danger comes from incorporating chiropractic care with other forms of "alt medicine", rather than using it as an additional form of treatment on top of proper medical care. Yes, a lot of people do this, and a lot of chiropractors not only allow, but encourage, them to do so. That's how people die under a chiropractor's care.
At the end of the day, it's up to each and every one of us to use a little bit of common sense every once in a while and realize that you probably can't trust the guy who tells you to take a couple drops of some homeopathic "tincture" to get the vibrations from whatever was at one point in that water, and you should probably seek care from someone who hasn't jumped off the deep end.
Unfortunately, my experience is that most chiropractors have done just that, and it makes it difficult, if not dangerous, to try and find a good one.
APK quotes people (including myself) without context and should not be trusted. Just thought you should know.
My wife has jaw problems, likely partly my fault, or so she likes to say :) It's not, really, as she's dealt with it for half her life, until relatively recently, but I appreciate the compliment when she says it.
She's been to doctors who referred her to massage therapists who referred her to dentists who referred her to orthopedic surgeons who said the only way to fix her problem is to break and realign her jaw, but they'd only do so under the advice of a dentist; and it was the dentist who referred her to the guy in the first place because a dentist can't make that recommendation.
I finally got her to go to my chiropractor and when she mentioned the jaw problem, he popped it to the side a bit (it was more than that, but that's what it looked like from the sidelines) and she hasn't had jaw pain since.
Yeah, jaw fixed in one visit; he's still working on her back problems, which aren't as bad as mine but I've been seeing him for 9 months and she's been seeing him for only a month. But, really, years of doctors telling her they can't do anything for her jaw, or that they could but won't, practically every excuse in the book and common advice being "just live with it", and i could have been (and was) fixed in 20 seconds.
Actually, it's disingenuous for me to say I've been seeing him for 9 months, there were 6 months starting in November when I didn't need his services, then a combination of stress and physical overexertion put me in pain again.
APK quotes people (including myself) without context and should not be trusted. Just thought you should know.
Yes, and the problem comes from the belief that they're anything more than that. The ones who try to tell you they can cure disease are the ones to avoid. The ones who tell you they can help with joint, muscle, and nerve pain, but to put ice on it and take a couple Aleve first and only come to see them if that doesn't work after a couple days are the ones you want to see.
APK quotes people (including myself) without context and should not be trusted. Just thought you should know.
No. It's not.
When I was in the ER with a slipped disc, they gave me a shot of Dilaudid straight to the nerve and it did nothing for the pain. It didn't even do that good of a job making me not care about the pain, but it did make me loopy as fuck. Norco didn't help with the pain, either; nor did Tramadol, Hydrocodone, or Vicodin.
I suppose I could try Heroine, right?
Nah, I'm good, I've tried enough to know that shit doesn't work for me.
APK quotes people (including myself) without context and should not be trusted. Just thought you should know.
Hell, they didn't take the pain away or get me high. Well, Dilaudid did, but they only gave me a shot of that in the ER. As a result, I never became addicted; there was just nothing in them for me.
Glad to hear you beat it, though. I've seen what those addictions do to people, as well as their friends and families.
APK quotes people (including myself) without context and should not be trusted. Just thought you should know.
If the calibre of you argument is, "ask the people it helped," then it is just as easily refuted by, "ask the people it has hurt and/or killed." There's plenty of those.
The same can be said of western medicine, as well. Not everything works for everyone. Of course, it all comes down to treating the right problem with the right treatment; you don't fix a slipped disc with Vicodin just like you don't cure cancer by cracking a few joints in your back. Any doctor who prescribes Vicodin for a slipped disc is a quack, just as any chiropractor who claims they can cure cancer is a wacko.
APK quotes people (including myself) without context and should not be trusted. Just thought you should know.
That would be called an anecdote. Science and medicine works off evidence, not anecdotes.
Bullshit.
My Dr gave me a referral to a physical therapist that actually helped correct the problem.
So did mine, however I still ended up needing a chiropractor.
Next you are going to tell us the magic crystals and diterary bullshit that chiropractors deal in works too, right?
I think when you find the right chiropractor that sticks with skilled mechanical movement of the joints in the body I can't move, they are a blessing you will thank for the relief. I will indulge your patience so I can explain.
I've been training martial arts for around 30 years and occasionally competed to test myself. Mainly muay Thai and Jui Jitsu are my favorites because they are effective. I also love playing sports like football, hockey, climbing, swimming, I love it all.
Well after all those years of training all of those injuries leave scar tissue which accumulates in the body, the pain of movement becomes an issue. I was doing some intense physiotherapy deep tissue massage for many years, documenting my progress and changes which I one day presented to my doctor.
He looked at them and suggested "Dry Needling", which uses larger needles than acupuncture which is inserted directly into injury sites around the body. It's as extremely confronting as it is effective. I have had over five thousand needles stuck into pretty much anywhere you could name in the body (ok, maybe not my dick). I have resolved 27 injury sites in my body.
A pattern emerged while going through all this, all muscle tension moves from the extremities to the spine which is where I was eternally grateful for a chiropractor with the skill to cavitate my spine and get it moving again. After that the injury site was fully resolved.
I've taken almost three years off training to do this and I feel fucking amazing. I've logged movements of hundreds of hours of cavitation of joints all over my body as scar tissue broke up all over my body. I've recovered range of motion in almost every joint in my body in the cycle, needles, cavitation, chiropractor. Repeated in joints from my fingers to my hips.
The hips have been the hardest to move which I am going through writing this. For the last two days my left ankle, knee and hip have cavitated hundreds of times over a period of about 5 hours a session. The release events (I don't know what else to call them) breaks up the scar tissue through a series of numbness, stretching and cavitation and wipes you out physically. It leaves me nauseous and feeling like I've done a heavy weights session, I slept 40 hours over three days as I felt the muscles slowly pulling my hips to where they should be. It feels like I've been kicked solidly in the balls.
This is resolving a snapped achilles tendon and has been re-occurring for the last six weeks which is pulling the left side of my hips down back into horizontal alignment after previously pulling them back into lateral alignment some weeks ago. I have been through this cycle with other joints like elbows and shoulders, all resolved.
Indeed I think the biggest problem I've had is with a part of my neck that many chiropractors had difficulty moving. I've found that some Chiropractors are afraid of moving peoples necks and it is a risk, that has to be acknowledged. However I know the few times I found a chiro that could move that problem part of my neck I slept like a baby for months. Most of the time it was me pushing the chiropractor.
I think you're right to call the bullshit parts of chiropractors out, just stick with moving the spine and keeping it moving, it is a key component of the body and you want it to function properly. Having said that I offer the following advice from what I've learned:
My ism, it's full of beliefs.
Why play woo roulette with a chiropractor? There is no reason that a chiropractor is required at any stage in the process. Need a nice back rub? Go to a masseur. Need treatment for a physical problem? Go to a physiotherapist.
I keep one of each on speed dial. I go to the good one when I need an adjustment and the quack when I need a laugh. Sometimes laughter really is the best medicine, so the quack probably gets more of my business than he should.
APK quotes people (including myself) without context and should not be trusted. Just thought you should know.
Osteopathy is quackery too.
Nope. They're cheap because it's easy to print out a few phony certificates, buy a white coat and other trappings of medicine and pretend to be professional. Certainly much cheaper than studying for years in medical college and all the operating costs of being an actual medical practitioner.
The mainstream medical equivalent is to prescribe a dozen opiate pills to achieve the same result
Not at all. The only time mainstream medical would prescribe opiate pills would be to relieve pain from an injury that would self heal which is the vast majority of muscular related injuries that a person is likely to experience in their life.
For improved healing speed and effect the mainstream medical world would refer you to phyiso, active, or manual therapy, or for a hospital visit.
Of course, it's impossible to prove that the treatment did nothing for you and you would have got better on your own, but hey, why not?
Not really. I'm dealing with a "control" scenario right now.
Every few years, I'll do something that will cause me to pinch a nerve in my neck (lower cervical/upper thoracic) It can be mild, like a pain when moving my arm in a certain way, or severe where I can't turn my head more than 10 degrees to one side. If I wait for it to go away on its own, it can take weeks. If I go to the chiropractor, partial relief (reduced pain, increased mobility) is immediate, and full relief happens in 2-3 days. It may or may not require a second adjustment--but that's up to me.
I'm dealing with a pinched nerve that seems to originate right between my shoulder blades (but I know that "feels like" can be deceptive). I know the cause: Chairs that are too short, and desks that are too high. But I'm in China, and that's the way all the furniture is. I'm using pillows and stacks of foam to deal with the former, but I can't rebuild the office desks to deal with the latter. I can't find a chiropractor here. I know a qualified one could fix this right away.
But I'm also aware that the only thing Chiropractors can do is adjust joints to relieve pressure on nerves and strain on muscles. And a good one will give you advice on how to avoid these problems in the future (like, take your wallet out of your pocket when you sit down).
Most of the comments so far appear to be anecdotal. What happened to actually applying experimental science? Chiropractors should not have a problem with this if what they do actually works. Generally, I have found (in my unscientific, non-random sampling) that chiropractors and their devotees view the whole thing more like a religion. When the idea of scientific verification is brought into the discussion, the response is to attack the legitimacy of scientific research. Every big lie contains some truth. There is too many faulty medical research studies published, so some criticism is valid. In the main, however, medical science has been advanced by a lot of solid basic and applied research.
Since there is not much financial reward in research that debunks the chiropractic religion, and since there is strong financial incentive for the chiropractic priests to continue, I doubt that we will see much reliable, well done studies on their methods and results any time soon.
I know an Osteopathic Physician named Dr. Abend, any chance you are related?
Chiropractics is not an alternate therapy, it is a conventional one like massage physio therapy or anything else an orthopedic would subscribe.
Cost free eBook I read (by iBook/Kobo/Amazon/ObookO/Gutenberg etc.): "The Green Odyssey" by Philip Jose Farmer.
If you see something wrong with Qi Gong you must be a complete moron.
Cost free eBook I read (by iBook/Kobo/Amazon/ObookO/Gutenberg etc.): "The Green Odyssey" by Philip Jose Farmer.
Chiropractics is a wide field. ...
The guy coining the term was a wacko.
No our days Chiropracticer believes he can cure cancer or a flue buy relocating de located joints.
How do you come to that brain dead idea?
The few Chiropracticers I know have an university degree
Cost free eBook I read (by iBook/Kobo/Amazon/ObookO/Gutenberg etc.): "The Green Odyssey" by Philip Jose Farmer.
You are an idiot.
An anecdote has the same level of evidence as any other 'result' in a similar scientific or non scientific experiment.
The stone I dropped from the bridge lately and measured the time it needed to hit the water was the same anecdote as the stones on lead balls Galileo dropped from the tower of Pisa.
Cost free eBook I read (by iBook/Kobo/Amazon/ObookO/Gutenberg etc.): "The Green Odyssey" by Philip Jose Farmer.
No, they don't.
Instead, they have this conceitful affectation for prominently using their honorific titles whenever possible. Which instead of linking them to their roots, associates them with other practitioners like Dr. Wilhelm Reich (Orgone accumulator), Dr. Mehmet Oz ("miracle pill"), Dr. Farid Fata (confessed in court to intentionally and wrongfully diagnosing healthy people with cancer, then selling them profitable chemotherapy drugs), Dr. Christine Daniel (selling herbal cancer cures), Dr. Gayle Rothenberg (injecting people with fake Botox), many more. And that's not even exploring the rich waters of doctors practicing psychiatry.
Certainly, if the summary can point to 3 chiropractors and use that do proclaim chiropractic to be bullshit, the same can be done for mainstream medicine as represented by MDs.
"National Security is the chief cause of national insecurity." - Celine's First Law
I had chronic severe headaches my entire life. I remember distinctly in 2nd grade my teacher kept a bottle of Tylenol in her desk with my name on it. I know what you're probably thinking, but this was 30 years ago in a private school, so nobody thought anything of it then. As an adult, I typically had a headache twice a week, and some weeks I had them every day. Two or three times a year they were so bad I would have to leave work.
Last year I tried some chiropractic care as a hail mary for another medical issue. It didn't help with what I walked in the door for, and made my long-abused back feel worse, but I haven't had a headache since my first visit around a year ago. I discontinued my visits last August, so there has been real staying power. I don't know everything chiropractic may benefit, but it certainly helped me with my headaches. If I find them returning, I wouldn't hesitate to return for an adjustment or two.
It's a perfect time for being wasted.
A perfect time to watch the stars.
- Burden Brothers, "Beautiful Night"
Some chiropractors definitely are quacks, but the training they are provided is not Bullshit. Many years ago, my grandmother was known to have osteoporosis and was complaining of back pain. The chiropractor refused to even touch her back without an X-Ray. After looking at her X-Ray, he highly suspected her to have lung cancer (which was correct) and referred her to a cancer specialist. Now it wasn't caught early enough, but it was caught a lot earlier than it would have been had she not gone to the chiropractor at all.
I saw them in Jurassic Park, they're real!
Confucius say, "Find worm in apple - bad. Find half a worm - worse."
I had piriformis syndrome that was giving me a lot of pain and visited a chiropractor. He identified the problem, explained it to me in a clear manner, told me what to do about it, and taught me stretching exercises to prevent its recurrence in the future. He charged me $40 per visit (in cash, in full, at time of service) for 3 visits. At the end of the last of visit he told me I didn't need to come back anymore. A masseuse wouldn't have the knowledge, and if I even talked to a doctor for 5 minutes, I'd get three different bills a month and a half later, and they'd add up to way more than $120. I am quite glad I visited that chiropractor.
You're absolutely right. Except in studies where you can't control all of the variables. In these you can't make any conclusions based on just one or even a few data points because you don't know what outside factors may have come to play to get the result you found.
Instead you need thousands, or even better millions of anecdotes to hopefully average out all of the outside factors. Which is why anecdotes of one individual don't mean much scientifically.
My opiate addicted brother-in-law proves you wrong.
"National Security is the chief cause of national insecurity." - Celine's First Law
So what ? If you want to do a statistical analysis on the matter go ahead. In the meantime, you will not prevent people from sharing their experiences.
You are one dumb motherfucker
The wording is wrong 'scientifically' has no point in your final sentence.
The question is only if it is a big study, and/or if it needs to be a big one.
E.g. if you want to study about migraine, you probably want to question a few thousand of probands. But scientifically every single anecdote has the same value. Later you filter out those who are rare outsiders. However they still are interesting and not unscientific. You only filter so you can more easy find groups/phenomena that have something in common.
Anyway, I was only answering because /. is full, with idiots who think an anecdote had no scientific value, because it is either fake or an outsider or not reliable.
When I'm alone in the desert and realize the sun is rising in the east, for some /. it is an anecdote, for me it is a fact of nature.
Cost free eBook I read (by iBook/Kobo/Amazon/ObookO/Gutenberg etc.): "The Green Odyssey" by Philip Jose Farmer.
A dry, but good video
Slashdot's rate-of-post filter: Preventing you from posting too many great ideas at once.
I am skeptical of most chiropractors, but not all. My SO was having terrible problems with her shoulder, and two members of my family who are doctors independently recommended a chiropractor in the town where they practice. He has worked as a trainer for five Olympic teams (including one of the Canadian teams in Rio).
She went to one appointment with him and after some excruciating poking and prodding, she immediately improved the movement in her shoulder. Three more appointments, and her shoulder has been close to normal for over a year. He didn't try to sell her anything or get her to make a series of appointments. He also didn't spout any nonsense about aligning her spine or "subluxations".
He also treated a local surgeon who had been suffering crippling back pain, and had consulted experts in Canada and the U.S. with no success, even after surgery. He saw Alban a few times and within 6 months was back to training for marathons and triathlons.
So some of these guys are the real deal, you just have to find them.
That depends on the type of back problem you have. I tend to get a vertical twist in my spine and it will eventually pinch nerves causing loss of feeling in my legs (as in: I literally can fall over while walking, it's a weird feeling.)
My chiropractor keeps this twist in check, I see him every two to three months. I tried going without it and I would get very sore (nerves pinched.)
So far, I have my mobility back and have no complaints. Their office do have all these supplements which I ignore but do not underestimate the value of a chiropractor when you have a real back problem.
In my case I combined it with physiotherapy to strengthen my core back muscles. I tried physio without the chiropractor and after four months I was in pain. The physiotherapists couldn't figure out why.
So here is the deal, 'Chiropractors Are Bullshit' , sure they might fix an ache or pain, but your body will slip back into that state. That is why you need to go for regular relalignment appointments.
Also, Chiropracty caries lots of risk, stroke, pinched nerves, broken/cracked/chipped bones and the list goes on. A family member of mine was in a car accident and had a messed up neck, so they went to the Chiropractor. Next thing we knew they were on the way to the emergency room with the symptoms of a stroke. The adjustments tore and artery in the neck which lodged in the brain, causing irreversible brain damage from the clot.
I sit in a chair all day like you, and messed up my back. I was in PT (physical therapy) for two summers trying to get better, but I still had chronic pain.
What finally helped?
Core strength, exercising, moving.
Now, 3-4 times per week I exersise. 20-30 minutes of cardio, followed by 30 minutes of core/back strengthening exercises.
I am healthy, fit, and strong AND NO MORE BACK PAIN.
It will take you about 3 months for the pain to go away, but you will see it decline and fade away. I can sit in a chair, play on the floor, pull weeds, pick strawberries, bike ride, life heavy objects.
Make fitness part of your life, you will feel better and can escape regular chiropractor visits and addiction to pain medication.
I could barely walk a few years ago. I couldn't jump without intense back-pain and now I can run, jump, and play in my mid 40's.
Even if you can barely move, start today. Visit your local YMCA, get a trainer, start slow, keep at it, and slowly day-after-day you will make gains and in 3 months your core will be able to take a punch from Mike Tyson and you will be strong and fit.
A strong body core is like a second set of back muscles. It supports you and holds you together. When you tighten your core/stomach it helps you back. immensely.
There are no quick fixes in life, no silver bullets, no magic pills. You have to earn the gains. No one can do it for you. You can't buy it. You can't steal it. It is something that requires routine and a little mental toughness. Do it, it will change your quality of life.
Remember this, by saying, "Oh, I don't have time to work out, exercise, or strengthen my core." what you are really saying is that, "I am choosing not to make my physical fitness and quality of life a priority." Say it outloud 3 times and see how it sounds, "I am choosing not to make this a priority, then add I would rather have back surgery and spinal fusion surgery, and be addicted to pain medicine."
I do it 3-4 time per week at 8PM. I am choosing to make my health and quality of life a priority. I don't want to be in chronic pain. I don't want to visit a quack to crack my bones. I don't want to take 6 Alleve pills per day.
As a side benefit, putting on muscles will help anyone who is pre-diabetic, and it will lower your cholesterol. Exercise has an amazing effect on the body.
Do it. Put down the DAMN COMPUTER and drive to the YMCA or GYM with a trainer NOW. Go, get off your ass. Start slow, give it 3 months and you will be a new person.
Leave NOW!
I "slipped a disk" a few years back and the traditional medical care I received was misguided and useless except for the part where they referred me to PT. I'm really glad I did not opt for surgery! The PT guy quickly massaged and manipulated me into alignment and gave me exercises. Worked faster and better than the medicine and despite a few setbacks actually solved the problem. In my experience with back injury it was traditional medicine that was a scam and money grab.
Over 4 years neither doctors or massage worked.
Chiropractor fixed it in 1 month.
End of story.
Dr. Ernest G. Napolitano, and two of my aunts worked for him in his office there. Snappy dresser, and I got some hand me down suits. So call me biased. :)
http://www.nycc.edu/news/newsi...
https://www.nycc.edu/pdfs/give...
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/...
He was one of two first chiropractors in NY, and he and the other fellow took turns bailing each other out of jail as the local medical establishment kept getting them locked up.
So I had a good opinion of chiropractors before I ended up needing one. I call what I received "the mother of all adjustments". I got all the prep work done first, X-rays, diathermy, session on the bed with the rollers, and finally the adjustment. I had been suffering from a numbness in the arm that had me shaking it and pummeling it to make the tingling go away when I was in bed. Pain in the neck and back, numbness going down the leg. I was working as a clam digger at the time.
Anyway, so now I'm getting pegged down onto the table. My doctor was a big guy, an athlete, and kept repositioning the pegs to make them tighter and tighter. It finally felt like they were grinding against my hips. He then put a towel under my neck and began rotating my neck while telling me to relax, and breathe in and out. That went on until I was pretty well zoned out. He then pulled up on the towel, and the crack I got could be heard all around the room. There were gasps from the other patients. I felt it down my ribcage as though it had been separated. My back got straightened out, and the pain and numbness was gone.
I later saw Doctor Napolitano at a wedding, and he remembered my chiro as being a good student, and a good basketball player. Lol, it was cool to be able to drop the name of the person who signed my chiro's diploma when I next saw him on a followup. He remembered my aunts as well, as they collected tuition payments.
A few years later I had to all but carry my brother in due to his back being in agony and his spine being out of line. Some diathermy treatments, the rollers, and then an adjustment, and he was back to clamming again, which he still does today, at the age of 63. I know other clammers that use chiropracters, as do a number of gym rats. "If your spine is line, then you'll feel fine", and for otherwise healthy people whose exertions put their back out of whack, a chiropractor can be a sound choice for a fix.
One last anecdote. Dr. Nap was something of a local legend when he practiced, his office was always full, and he'd have a line out the door, and stretching to the sidewalk. Lol, those were some damn fine suits that I was gifted with. :)
You sound like a fucking mess to me. Mentally and physically.
I was, I've been through a lot. Anyone carrying around a lot of physical injury is going to suffer mentally from it, it is impossible not to. That's why I started by healing my body to see where it would lead. Turns out it gives you the cognizance to sort all your mental shit out as well.
If you've got the balls to though, it is very confronting, I doubt it is for everyone.
My ism, it's full of beliefs.
Dude, change the font of your website, it's a crime against humanity.
Mostly random stuff.
I know people who were really helped by chiropractic, but when they did some searching to find out more about the theory behind it, were shocked by finding a swamp of swill about e energy channels and subluxations.
If chiropractic makes your back feel better, don't make the mistake of asking more about it.
I'm married to a professional masseuse, and can get as much massage as I need. I still go to a chiropractor for neck and shoulder problems.
The ones who try to tell you they can cure disease are the ones to avoid.
You could visit a different chiropractor every month for your whole life, and you'd most likely never meet one. They're something held up for tinfoil hat bullies to shout at, they're not a real problem in the community.
Your opiate addicted brother-in-law proves nothing more than a sad case from one bad actor.
Anecdote is not data.
A single data point is not a trend.
You don't know science.
etc.
etc.
I've met a few, actually. My current chiropractor knows a few as well, and we laugh about them during my visits. Of course, this guy does have an acupuncturist on staff and rents an office to a homeopath. We laugh about her, too, if she's out of the office when I'm there. He doesn't refer patients to her, but he has several who believe in that mumbo jumbo so it makes sense for him to have her there; apparently, there are people who are into that garbage and will refuse to see a chiropractor who doesn't at least give off the air of associating with those types.
How do I know this guy's good? My wife has had jaw problems for half her life and has gotten the runaround from doctors, dentists, and even an orthopedic surgeon. Apparently, an orthopedic surgeon can "fix" it by breaking and re-setting the jaw, but anyone she's gone to says they'll only do it after a doctor has given a referral to a dentist who determined it needs to be done and given a referral for the surgery. That's right, just going to a dentist who says it's needed and gives the referral isn't enough; and, to top it off, 3 dentists told her she needs to get a recommendation for the surgery from an orthopedic surgeon before they'll refer.
How the hell is that supposed to work?
PROTIP: Chiropractors adjust jaws, as well. One adjustment, 20 seconds, no more jaw problems.
That's how I know this guy is good.
APK quotes people (including myself) without context and should not be trusted. Just thought you should know.
The healing energy stuff is pure unadulterated bullshit. As a yoga / dancing around in pj thing for physical exercise, I'm sure it's nearly as effective as walking, sorry if I insulted your favorite breathing hobby.
"National Security is the chief cause of national insecurity." - Celine's First Law
Not at all. You're implying that your brother was treated by mainstream medical. If he was then he wouldn't be opiate addicted. He likely got treated by someone with a corporate agenda.
I read somewhere recently (here?) that yoga can be just as good for back pain as any of many alternatives (including chiropractors).
What has "healing energy" to do with Qi Gong?
I never heard about "healing energy" outside of world of warcraft. But well, I did not play many fantasy/RP games.
Are you really such a an idiot?
Yoga is actually a far relative of Qi Gong. No idea what you actually want to say ... you seem to rant about something?
Cost free eBook I read (by iBook/Kobo/Amazon/ObookO/Gutenberg etc.): "The Green Odyssey" by Philip Jose Farmer.
Saying "well it worked for me" or somesuch is subjective whargarbl. Unsurprisingly alt medicine relies on lots of anecdotes because they are conspicuously lacking in the scientific proof department.
That is not what the /. crowed calls an anecdote :)
Saying "well it worked for me" or somesuch is subjective whargarbl. Unsurprisingly alt medicine relies on lots of anecdotes because they are conspicuously lacking in the scientific proof department.
Any examples, citations? I guess, no.
Cost free eBook I read (by iBook/Kobo/Amazon/ObookO/Gutenberg etc.): "The Green Odyssey" by Philip Jose Farmer.
If you say that to a qualified Physiotherapist, you'll be needing a funeral director. Chiropractors are quacks. They have zero legitimacy with medical professionals.
Some chiropractors are quacks, but they are not all woo vendors. Careful shopping is needed.
What fucking shit hole country do you live in? I live in Canada. Local chiropractor was $45 per visit, less than 15 minutes. My Physiotherapy was $55 per visit (time varied 20-45 minutes) and decompression was $65 for about 50 minutes. $2000 with chiropractor and problem only worse and worse over months. Went to physiotherapist, had diagnosis and pain relief at the 7 minute mark of first visit. Fuck that chiropractor.
Opioids are used as painkillers and claiming they aren't used as painkillers (as you and KGIII did) is wrong. Sure, it may not have worked for you. Does that mean it doesn't work? _NO_
There's a reason there are many types of pain management. Some kinds of pain are very hard to reduce, some requires surgery, cutting off nerves, placing electrodes etc. So just because you had some pain that wasn't helped by opioids doesn't mean the ludicrous idea that opioids doesn't reduce pain itself is right.
ABEND = ABnormal END. From IBM OS/360. Allegedly chosen by IBM as a replacement of ABORT messages as abortions were being a hot/controversial topic in the US...
LOL. How predictable. "No true Scotsman..."
"National Security is the chief cause of national insecurity." - Celine's First Law
Predictable it was. Try to state something clearly and some autistic idiot derails a conversation with irrelevant logic.
No one cares about these fallacies. Go back to taking drugs with your retarded brother.
Tell that to my father who has been practicing osteopathy for close to 50 years and whose practice is all but indistinguishable from that of an M.D. The only thing he does that they don't is spinal manipulation for a very limited group of complaints.
Opioids are used as painkillers and claiming they aren't used as painkillers (as you and KGIII did) is wrong.
Nobody claimed they weren't used that way, just that they don't work that way. Reading comprehension is a wonderful thing, my friend.
Sure, it may not have worked for you. Does that mean it doesn't work? _NO_
What was claimed is that opioids don't take the pain away, and they don't. They, when they work at all, interfere with your perception of pain by blocking pain receptors, or activating pleasure receptors in your brain. This can make you believe that the pain has gone away, but those pain messages still travel through your nervous system and their presence can still interfere with motor control and concentration. That's on top of the opioids, themselves, dulling motor skills and concentration.
KGill's other claim, which is also absolutely correct, is that opioids carry with them certain other, adverse effects. Those include (in addition to reduced motor skills and concentration, stated above) addiction, tolerance (which increases required dosage, thereby increasing other negative effects), nausea and vomiting, drowsiness, itching, constipation, difficulty breathing, hyperalgesia (the big one that hits me with certain opioids), disruption of hormonal balance, confusion, hallucinations, delirium, urticaria, hypothermia, tachycardia, orthostatic hypotension, dizziness, headache, urinary retention, ureteric or biliary spasm, muscle rigidity, myoclonus, and flushing.
If you're taking any other depressant type drugs, you're more likely to suffer the above-mentioned negative effects; that includes experiencing more of them and intensifying them. All the while, you still have your pain, you just might not feel it as much. It didn't go away, because opioids don't take it away.
There's a reason there are many types of pain management. Some kinds of pain are very hard to reduce, some requires surgery, cutting off nerves, placing electrodes etc.
If managing pain is your goal, enjoy the opioids. Just realize that you don't manage something that's been taken away because, once it's been taken away, it's gone. If you have a joint that's slipped out of position and is pinching a nerve, you don't treat that with drugs, you re-align the joint and relieve the pressure on the nerve. That takes the pain away. If you'd rather just "manage" the pain, well, fuck, I say go for it. Just don't delude yourself into thinking it's actually gotten better.
So just because you had some pain that wasn't helped by opioids doesn't mean the ludicrous idea that opioids doesn't reduce pain itself is right.
Actually, it's not ludicrous and it's absolutely right. Ask any drug company how their opioid medications work, ask them if they reduce pain or reduce the perception of pain. Even the most crooked pharma rep will answer that one honestly.
And I'll remind you that pain signals exist for a reason. Pain indicates damage, or circumstances which may lead to damage.
When my L2 and L3 separate and part of the disc between them slips out, allowing them to compress and squeeze the nerve bundles that exit between them, I'm sure there is some combination of drugs that can reduce, possibly even eliminate, my perception of the resulting pain. However, that doesn't magically make the pain go away; it's still there, and I need to keep taking those drugs to keep masking it. It also doesn't fix the cause of the pain, which is a signal to my brain that critical nerve bundles are in jeopardy, nor does it act to protect those nerve bundles.
The correct treatment, as prescribed by an actual doctor, an MD, is to immobilize for a couple days and see if the disc pulls itself back into place. If that doesn't help
APK quotes people (including myself) without context and should not be trusted. Just thought you should know.
Slipped spinal disc, pinched nerve, dislocated joint, need I continue?
APK quotes people (including myself) without context and should not be trusted. Just thought you should know.
After seeing a message therapist, my texting issues are behind me.
Whenever I have problems, I consult my Haitian Lugaru. Yes, sometime she is wrong, but doesn't charge as much as the certified quacks I do see.
The article doesn't actually say chrorpracty doesn't work. What it says is that the very top, most well-known chiropracters, push other sorts of nonsense (alkaline diet, probably crystals).
How about "real" doctors or "real" psychiatrists. The normals ones don't promote crap. But we're not talking about average chriopracters either. How about the doctors that have their own tv show (Phil) or that get on Oprah? Those well-known "real" doctors are always pushing something that's not always actually medical.
Apples and oranges. Cherry-picked examples.
Martin Gardner had included a section on "chiropractic medicine" in his book Fads and Falacies in the name of Science. He argued that it was BS too.
...richie - It is a good day to code.
Aren't there at least a couple of licensed chiropractors who can lick their own balls and bark at the Moon?
(I may be confusing homeopaths and chiropractors here. No great distinction.)
Birds are not dinosaur descendants;birds are dinosaurs, for all useful meanings of "birds", "are" and "dinosaurs"
I've seen a number of them over the years. When my back gets out of line. When it does you can visually see when I walk that something's wrong. After a session, the spine is back in line and on its way to healing.
My Daughter had a neck injury. She'd used to fall to the floor screaming. Equestrian related injury. Took some years. She'd see the Chiro when needed. Today she's fine.
The alternative for a lot of these situation is either addictive type drugs or surgery. Don't let them cut you if you can help it.
Fuck. You made me click his website, now I am blind and have cancer.
I'm a good cook. I'm a fantastic eater. - Steven Brust
There are two things called "osteopathy". One is somewhat evidence-based and the other is not.
In the United States, you want to see an "osteopathic physician", not an "osteopath".
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No atheist deliberately becomes a priest, [...]
That's only because Unitarians prefer the term "minister".
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There's a difference between "osteopath" and "osteopathic physician". It's confusing, I know.
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One thing that a good chiropractor will do for you that a massage therapist typically won't (in my experience) is provide wellness counseling in the form of stretches and exercises you can do to speed along the healing process and behavioral changes to keep the pain away once it's gone.
So what you're saying is that your chiropractor practises unlicensed physiotherapy as well as unlicensed massage therapy?
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(1) A duly licensed chiropractor may manipulate and adjust the spinal column and other joints of the human body and in the process thereof a chiropractor may manipulate the muscle and connective tissue related thereto.
(2) As part of a course of chiropractic treatment, a duly licensed chiropractor may use all necessary mechanical, hygienic, and sanitary measures incident to the care of the body, including, but not limited to, air, cold, diet, exercise, heat, light, massage, physical culture, rest, ultrasound, water, and physical therapy techniques in the course of chiropractic manipulations and/or adjustments.
For reference, massage therapy is:
manual manipulation of soft body tissues (muscle, connective tissue, tendons and ligaments) to enhance a person’s health and well-being
which is covered by 302a(1) "and in the process thereof a chiropractor may manipulate the muscle and connective tissue related thereto" and physiotherapy is:
an independent primary care profession which assesses, plans and implements rehabilitative programs that improve or restore human motor functions, maximizes movement ability, relieves pain syndromes, and treats or prevents physical challenges associated with injuries, diseases and other impairments
which is covered by 302a(2) in its entirety.
So, no, that's not what I'm saying; he is most certainly licensed for what he does.
APK quotes people (including myself) without context and should not be trusted. Just thought you should know.
There are several things in the article that are true: Chiropractors do tend to push the envelope. However, there is a reason that they are on Staff with sports teams, etc.
I injured my right knee in College. Had trouble walking and pain in the knee. Went to my GP who sent me to a specialist who said surgery to fix it. I happened to go down to the beach where my mom sent me to her own specialist (free as she paid, heck was in university). The Chiropractor proceeded to inform me he was on staff with Atlanta Hawks (this was.. what 25 years ago now.. longer) and then worked on my knee for 6 sessions. I no longer had pain and had full strength. What he did was painful as he told me the problem was not the knee but the damage had not been removed in the supporting muscles. He basically pushed and did work that fixed the damage to almost perfect. I maintained a 5-10 degree outward angle as the support muscles had not healed exactly the original. It did not affect my sports, life, in fact I think the surgery would have been worse.
I also had a slipped disk in my back (twice) and time 1: went to regular doctor who gave me drugs... 3 days later I could walk again. The second time I went to chiropractor and walked out of the office. Reason? Slipped discs are back in place.. the problem is my body reacted to it, so she calmed my back and areas with electrical stimulation. My god.. it worked.
I have also had surgery on my elbow due to another sports injury. No pain, but I have lost strength. Before surgery I hit Homeruns regularly, After.. I have yet to hit one. I cant seem to get the speed/strength fully back into it. No pain so I dont complain. It was torn cartilage and so Chiropractor would not have helped I think.
So. Doctors are emergency medicine. I go to them all the time. Chiropractors are great for some things, just be careful... as with regular doctors you get a quack.
What do you call the person who graduated last in class in medical school?
Doctor.
I can program myself out of a Hello World Contest!!
I think chiropractors are mixed, and they run the gauntlet from kooks to legitimacy.
1. I have serious issues impairing movement and causing pain. And had a chiropractor identify the muscle, and the misalignment. Work the muscle, adjust the vertebrate. Suddenly, I went from a very limited range of motion and pain to being able to move and an 80% reduction in pain.
2. I have another chiropractor I've gone to periodically. This chiropractor takes an X-ray of all his patients. He identifies bone growths, anomalies, damage, etc. He does alignments, he also has some tools to adjust. He conducts range of motion tests. He identifies areas that are impaired. He prescribes particular exercises and stretches to improve range of movement.
So yes, chiropractic care can be very scientific and true medical care. But it can also be a lot of crap and pseudo-science.
BTW, for us programmers, one of the best exercises to alleviate a lot of my problems is to hold your head straight, and then pull back with your muscles while keeping your head level. You'll feel it stretch muscles at the very top of the neck where it connects to the base of the skull. This exercise, and just doing it a few times a day, made a tremendous difference. It helps counteract out constant staring down, up, etc. as PC users.
Do you actually expect those who submit articles on /. to know their ass from a hole in the ground? If so, you really need to start paying attention.
Cracking your back and neck isn't anecdotal. It is almost as common as eating. Almost everyone, nearly 100% of human beings, crack their own backs or necks back into place. A huge percentage do it daily.
Sometimes we can't adjust our bones ourselves, however. A person's bones aren't aligned for whatever reason. Maybe we pulled them out lifting something. We got in a car accident. We fell and landed weird.
Putting the bones back in place is not bullshit. If a bone breaks, we put it back into place. If we don't it heals in the wrong place and is misshapen for life. The muscles and tendons around this can also be altered for life.
Sometimes bones get out of place without breaking, usually at a joint. Because the bones are out of place, joints can rub, muscles can get tight, tendons can be stretched, causing pain. If left in the wrong place, muscles and joints can heal in the wrong place and be altered.
Now, stating that: "Claiming that putting the bones back in place can cure cancer is bullshit" is something I can agree with. However, I will concede that overall health of a person contributes to a person's risk of cancer and having bones in proper position is part of overall health. But any additional correlation should be treated as a fraudulent claim.
Why play woo roulette with a chiropractor? There is no reason that a chiropractor is required at any stage in the process. Need a nice back rub? Go to a masseur. Need treatment for a physical problem? Go to a physiotherapist.
What do you do when the "legit" healthcare profession says that there's nothing to be done, and it's going to cost you "I don't know" amount of money to go see a "legit" professional (but certainly hundreds to thousands of dollars), and a chiropractor is offering to give it a go for $120?
Over a decade ago, a chiropractor helped my wife with significant back problems which multiple "legit" healthcare providers hadn't done anything for, and you want to know what the biggest help was? The chiropractor actually sat down and listened to her, rather than immediately telling her what the situation was.