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From Google To Yahoo, Tech Grapples With White Male Discontent (bloomberg.com)
Reader joshtops shares a Bloomberg report: Google isn't the only Silicon Valley employer being accused of hostility to white men. Yahoo and Tata Consultancy Services were already fighting discrimination lawsuits brought by white men before Google engineer James Damore ignited a firestorm -- and got himself fired -- with an internal memo criticizing the company's diversity efforts and claiming women are biologically less suited than men to be engineers. The Yahoo case began last year when two men sued, claiming they'd been unfairly fired after managers allegedly manipulated performance evaluations to favor women. They claim Marissa Mayer approved the review process and was involved in their terminations, and last month a judge ordered the former chief executive be deposed. TCS, meanwhile, is fighting three men who claim the Mumbai-based firm discriminates against non-Indians at its U.S. offices.
White males are not very PC today but it's hard to run a company without any of them. The trick is to find a balance where you treat them shitty enough to make the left happy but not so shitty they go somewhere more tolerant.
I gotta say, I get treated pretty nicely. When I was a twenty-something I was really resentful because I couldn't figure out how to get dates. I want to believe that there is more to this kerfuffle than that, but I really just don't get it. Why are my youthful brethren so discontent?
The memo not only does NOT make the claim that women are less suited to tech roles and leadership roles, it makes the counter claim, that men have designed those roles to make them less friendly to women and that by altering those roles we can improve diversity and decrease the gender gap.
But I've yet to see a single neoliberal source treat the memo honestly, every neoliberal source I've seen treats Damore radically different than his behavior reflects. I don't agree with everything he says, but to claim he is against diversity is straight slander here.
This is why we voted for TRUMP for protection - we are being oppressed at every turn - WMLM!
But I don't blame any other ethnic group, just politicians.
Irish slurs
The “Google Manifesto”: Bad Biology, Ignorance of Evolutionary Processes, and Privilege
I guess that's a... creative way to avoid telling the truth: GENOCIDE.
Pretend you're gay. You'll gets lots of kudos and become part of a protected class.
Maw! Fire up the karma burner!
Mod down for use of the words "quite often".
I'll see your senator, and I'll raise you two judges.
>> claiming women are biologically less suited than men to be engineers.
Come on, He didn't make such a claim. He said biology may play a part in women's preferences in choosing to go into the field.
maybe you should say the same to women & other minorities.
This guy is playing up the PC angle but if you read what he's really saying it's pure racism. MY career is great and it's all because of my skills. If there are no black guys in the SV then they're probably just shitty engineers.
With a CS degree who can't find work as a programmer. It's got nothing to do with skin color or sex. None of us can compete with India. Sad thing is a lot of us voted Trump because he at least have IT workers lip service. Last I heard his plan was to cut back on low skill immigrants in favor of high skill ones. E.g. the ones gunning for the same jobs as me and everyone else reading this post...
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The kind that have vanished. There's nothing more dangerous than a man, any man, with no job prospects and therefore no marriage prospects.
Hi! I make Firefox Plug-ins. Check 'em out @ https://addons.mozilla.org/en-US/firefox/addon/youtube-mp3-podcaster/
I've never experienced this white male discontent that became so popular after Trump got elected. Then again, I grew up in a multicultural Silicon Valley. I don't have a problem with getting on public transit and hearing a dozen languages other than English. I've never been prevented from getting the tech jobs that I wanted. The only time race became an issue was when Cisco only had vegan pizzas at company events to avoid offending the Indians, leaving us meat eaters on the sidelines to go without.
And better yet, treat them exactly the same as you would treat women or minorities. That means no discriminating against people based on gender or race (as is alleged by the "discontent white males")
Slashdot, that's not what the memo said.
You can agree with the memo or you can't, but at least get the f$#@ing facts straight.
But don't worry, discrimination against white males is socially acceptable.
I've been in the computing industry for decades now. Despite the recent rise of so-called "social justice", things are worse now than they've ever been.
I've worked alongside many women since the 1970s. I've worked alongside open homosexuals, and even some transgendered people, since the 1980s. I've worked with people having every imaginable shade of skin color over the years. And you know what? We all got along fine. We accomplished some great technological achievements. We didn't spend all day fixated on things like gender, sexual preference, and skin color. We had real work to do, and we did this work together.
What we're seeing now is a relatively new phenomenon. It really wasn't an issue in our industry until leftists came in and started segregating people into different groups based on various irrelevant traits.
Before this leftist agitation, the only factor we really cared about was merit. The one and only question that mattered was "Can you get the work done properly, on time and under budget?". It was not "What color is your skin?" or "What gender do you think you are?" or "What kind of sexual intercourse do you prefer?".
Our industry's focus used to be computer hardware and computer software. Now the industry is more focused on penises, vaginas, anal intercourse, sex change operations, and skin color than it is about anything having to do with computing.
I know, I know, somebody will trot out the "Get off my lawn you damn kids!" or "Shaddap, gramps!" or "Remembering the past better than it was." lines. But the reality is that these are recent issues, and they were introduced by leftists. Until these leftists, many of them with absolutely no technical abilities at all, showed up and infiltrated our industry, we had a natural diversity that was unmatched. Leftists manufactured the division that we see today. Before then, the computing industry was far more concerned about merit and ability than it ever was about gender, or sexual preference, or skin color, or other meaningless attributes like those.
Wow. Now imagine we called black people being discriminated against "black discontent."
Slashdot, your bias is leaking.
You did go through a phase a couple months back where you called people "fags" and "ladyboys."
My Python scraper script only found two references to "fags": one was a reference to cigarettes and the other was the exact comment quoted above. As for ladyboys, what does this have to do with your mother?
I don't know if CNN counts as 'neoliberal,' but I just searched for "CNN google memo," and the first link that came up was this one, which says, "his opinion seems to be that women are underrepresented in tech because of psychological differences between women and men, not because of bias."
A search for "msnbc google manifesto" came up with this as the first search,, which says, "[Damore] claims to explain why more women aren't in engineering positions, chalking up the disparity to "biological" differences, including generalizations that women don't tend to handle stress well and are more neurotic."
That's not an exhaustive search, but I think it shows there is at least some nuance in media coverage.
"First they came for the slanderers and i said nothing."
A short time before AIG ate shit around 10 years ago I interviewed for a job there. I spent two years contract hopping in a seriously depressing low end of my skill level way so I did a lot of interviews during the "burst bubble" era.
I didn't get hired.
I interviewed for the NEXT open position a couple of months later. The manager instantly recognized me and said "I remember you! There's no reason for you to go through the interview process again. You were my personal top pick, but H.R. said I had to hire someone else right now."
About a month LATER I went for another interview there. Same guy, said pretty much the same thing, hinted that it's because I was a white guy and once again I was his top pick from the previous batch of applicants but he wasn't allowed to hire me that time either. The hint was that he needed at least one person of my demographic, possibly two to depart first.
I got a new job that compared rather favorably to my previous stable job before that two years of hell just a couple of months after that. It was about six months after that last interview to AIG that they really ate shit and had to go into recovery mode, so maybe it was a blessing in disguise. It's such a left-wing company and I'm not a part of that culture, so there's an added cushion to the blow of not getting hired.
This was not the only time I've been passed over for being a white guy, it's just the one occasion the person in charge of hiring would actually talk about it. I grew up in a "majority-minority" area and had some straight up racist based job issues there. Even in the school systems the administration would outright tell the minority-whites that they needed to just step back and not participate in things because the "majority-minorities" were going to cause problems for them and it was easier to not have us participate in events than to try to instill discipline and uphold proper discourse.
I now live in an area that's very diverse. I experience far less racism than I used to on a personal level. On an institutional level racism against whites and sexism against males has been on the rise and any mention of it has been met with denial, justification, or retaliation. I'm not in denial of the past. During my grandparents era there was some undeniable racism going on, and whites were the perpetrators. The laws that protected that way of thinking were gone during my parents era and during the modern era a near inverse of my grandparents era is setting upon us. I'm constantly told that this is justifiable fall-out for the days of slavery etc... Even though NONE of us were alive during that era.
There's going to be fall-out from the new racism.
The fallout is going to be reactionary - when I was younger I was actually a bit racist - it was reactionary racism against a class of people who treated me poorly the whole time I grew up among them. Turns out I was growing up among the equivalent to their trailer trash. I now work in a company that's roughly 85% the same national minority as the ones I grew up among, but they're not the trailer trash equivalents and I absolutely enjoy it and love my coworkers. Only a couple have expressed racism against me and most of them were employed for a very short period of time.
Back to reactionary:
Stomping on white people in general, and white males doubly so is going to cause them to start seeking one another out for shared stories initially then forming new groups for strength. Some of these will be purely innocent and the sorts of things that tend to form this way anyways, bowling leagues, cliques that hangout together etc... On the more extreme end - formed either by those with the most traumatic experiences or those that gravitate a little on the racist end of things anyways you're going to get people who organize into actual racist organizations. These new "islands of whiteness" are going to be formed by people who in many cases would be open minded, color blind, maybe even white men who chase after women of other races. When you attack people a demographic - rather they associate or not - they tend to form groups. If you don't want white groups forming don't attack or ostracize them.
The memo stated that women on average have more **INTEREST** towards people and a cooperative environment and that might detract possibly good candidates.
He also suggested to focus more on peer programming and focus on making the environment less cutthroat and more welcoming to everybody.
Minorities certainly face much more difficulty than I do in my industry, as do women. I have absolutely seen people of high skill underpaid because of gender or race, or discounted in hiring by managers. I can certainly understand why minorities and women struggle at times in the tech industry, it is in many ways, set against them.
But other white men? That I have a much harder time swallowing. I have worked at companies owned and run by women and I have never once seen a white man passed up for a position if he had the qualifications. When I hear a white man complaining that he can't get ahead in his career due because of affirmative action then all the evidence I have in my life tells me that that man probably isn't as good at his job as he thinks. I interview people all the time who are not nearly as good at what they do as they think they are, in this case, that seems the most likely scenario... or at least much more likely to be the case than a highly skilled, high performing white man being laid off from a firm.
"In America, first you get the sugar, then you get the power, then you get the women..." -H. Simpson
I don't think he can. Have you seen that bag of lard that starts from his chin, goes under his armpits and goes back up behind his neck?
I can reach every part of my body. Think football player, not your mama.
This isn't the first time you mention your particular fascination.
I work with ex-military from the Vietnam era. Bangcock comes up a lot in discussions.
Who would have thought...
Well here's the thing, if you treat everyone equally then you end up with a majority of white males in various roles such as tech.
Different people are interested in different things, and different cultures have different biases. Girls in school for instance are usually not interested in technology, and their peers will shun the few that are.
People are different, they have different interests, different upbringing, different aspirations. Trying to artificially distort the proportion of different groups in the workplace is stupid. If people were interested in doing a particular job they would have studied for it, learned about it and applied for positions.
In all my years working in tech, the vast majority of job applicants who have applied for jobs i've been responsible for have been white or asian males.
If you want women and other minorities to do tech roles, then look at schools and culture. If people are interested in these fields at an early age, and not discouraged (or bullied) away from them by their peers in school, then they will pursue careers in the subjects that most interest them.
Trying to force "diversity quotas" and other stupid shit is simply a form of discrimination against the presently dominant groups, and will result in an overall lower standard of employee. As minorities account for far fewer applicants, you will need to apply far lower standards in order to ensure the same number of successful applicants vs the larger majority group.
There are also many professions which are typically not taken by white males, nursing for instance - are any steps being taken to increase the number of white males working as nurses?
If 99 women and 1 man apply for 5 nursing positions, how does the hospital satisfy a diversity quota saying that 50% of nurses should be male?
What if the diversity quota is 20%, but the one man applying has no qualifications or experience and yet 30 of the women are highly qualified and experienced?
http://spamdecoy.net - free throwaway anonymous email - avoid spam!
Women in power are quite often downright evil.
Just be glad that never happens with men.
with an internal memo criticizing the company's diversity efforts and claiming women are biologically less suited than men to be engineers.
At no point in the memo was this ever stated.
I'm fucking tired of disingenuous assholes trying to spin something that says one thing, into something else to further their agenda.
Disagree with the memo all you like, but at least have the integrity to argue against the points it raised instead of making up some bullshit that it didn't say.
Mod me down with all of your hatred and your journey towards the dark side will be complete!
"an internal memo... claiming women are biologically less suited than men to be engineers."
Goddamnit, have you people no shame whatsoever? THE MEMO DOES NOT SAY THIS. Why do you keep on repeating this lie?
I thought that was obvious from context but I guess not. It doesn't matter if you're black, white, male, female. What matters is this: will you work for $17/hr or less. Because that's what I see most of the h-1bs doing with their low salaries and 70 hour work weeks...
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1.) He did _NOT_ criticize Googles diversity efforts per se. In fact, he applauded them. He did however express concerns that the way they are executes isn't effective and/or counter-productive to the cause and provided educated conclusions for this presumption.
2.) He did _NOT_ claim that women are biologically less suited for tech jobs. He used solid state-of-the-art scientific research results to find explanations why women might not be interested in taking tech jobs other that the standard arguably totally insuifficient "OGM! WTF! WHITE MALE OPPRESSION OF WOMEN!" narrative/explanation.
Please quit the lying/irresponsible spreading of falsehoods and inform yourself.
Just be an educated slashdotter and question the official group-think narrative. Thank you.
Here's to help you out:
Jordan Peterson interview with James Demore (citations linked in the description of the video)
The actual paper/memo that James Demore wrote
You're welcome.
We suffer more in our imagination than in reality. - Seneca
I'm sorry
For something I didn't do
Offended somebody
I don't know who
You blame me
For sexism
Hundreds of miles away from where I work
Guilty of Being White (Male)
Guilty of Being White (Male)
Guilty of Being White (Male)
Guilty of Being White (Male)
You must be Canadian... ;^)
I think it's mostly because people have been told they are under attack and should be angry at anti-white male discrimination.
I get the same thing with immigration. People are supportive when they hear my wife is trying to immigrate, but moments later rant about the being too many immigrants and them not speaking English in public.
In other words there is a disconnect between the idea of immigrants (bad) and the ones they actually know (good), that gets rationalised somehow.
They say "I don't mean you," but they really do. If they didn't know us, just saw her ahead of them in the checkout queue or heard her not speaking English, they would assume the worst.
const int one = 65536; (Silvermoon, Texture.cs)
SJW, n: "Someone I don't like, and by the way I'm a fuckwit" - AC
it's sexist.
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And here we have the foundation of hate!
And, time off! It sucks that all of my Asian coworkers get two to three weeks off every single year to go home, but Americans typically aren't even allowed a long weekend off. Yes, it's horrifically expensive to fly your entire family home and the travel takes so long that it doesn't make sense to go for less than two weeks, but it is simply unfair that they get time off while we do not.
I'm not really sure why you're being moderated flamebait. You're the first person in any of these threads (at least that I've seen) who's provided any evidence (whether its good or not is another argument) to try to refute the memo/manifesto.
Indeed. The irony is that I am sympathetic to Damore's memo. I also regard PLoS highly, and therefore felt it worth sharing their viewpoint. I'll hazard that Slashdot moderators skew male. Their flamebait moderation of a contrarian position affirms Google's policies and undermines Damore's position.
Oh my god stop lying. He made no such claim. Stop pushing your agenda down my throat. Fuck
If video games influenced behavior the Pac Man generation would be eating pills and running away from their problems.
Is it not as interested or that our society (still) actively discourages women - and especially, school age girls - from tech jobs?
Why can't it be both? In which case, you'd be 100% in alignment with what the memo says.
Like all pain, suffering is a signal that something isn't right
When I hear a white man complaining that he can't get ahead in his career due because of affirmative action then all the evidence I have in my life tells me that that man probably isn't as good at his job as he thinks.
In the UK it's legal to hire a woman instead of a man if they're both equally capable on the basis that she's female. The inverse is not true.
You really think that would be enshrined in law if it never happened? Really?
My stint in corporate IT featured shameless prowomen biases. For example, a man would work 10 years for a promotion that would be given to a woman in 2. And *any* woman. Only the most contentious men got promoted, but the bar for women was having a vagina.
I'd didn't really bother me back then, because I was all in with SJWhood. But now I look back at it I'm appalled. Some of the promoted women were twits. Some of the were good. But all of them were promoted. It's shamelessly unfair. But good if you're a woman I suppose.
Like all pain, suffering is a signal that something isn't right
Well, in the UK it's legal to hire a woman ahead of a man. To hire someone that's BME ("black or minority ethnic", a phrase in use in the UK) instead of someone that's white.
Then there's the funding available for things like university grants.
Plus there's the fact that women can retire with a state pension at a younger age than men.
Perhaps you weren't aware that poor white boys have the lowest educational outcomes in the country right now?
I'll close on the constant attacks in the media. Some are subtle, some are downright nasty, and many tacitly support anti-white and/or anti-male writings on less formal channels.
Being blamed for all the woes in the world, getting no credit for individual achievement because of "privilege", seeing laws passed that discriminate against your gender and/or race? Yeah, I wonder how white men think they are being oppressed in this society.
http://www.nber.org/papers/w14...
"By many objective measures the lives of women in the United States have improved over the past 35 years, yet we show that measures of subjective well-being indicate that women's happiness has declined both absolutely and relative to men. The paradox of women's declining relative well-being is found across various datasets, measures of subjective well-being, and is pervasive across demographic groups and industrialized countries. Relative declines in female happiness have eroded a gender gap in happiness in which women in the 1970s typically reported higher subjective well-being than did men. These declines have continued and a new gender gap is emerging -- one with higher subjective well-being for men."
To expand on your point, while this is obviously a complex topic with many possible causes, could part of that decline in overall happiness be the result of well-meaning people encouraging (or even forcing) women to do things they don't really want to do for whatever reason?
A 21st century issue: the irony of technologies of abundance in the hands of those still thinking in terms of scarcity.
Perhaps you weren't aware that poor white boys have the lowest educational outcomes in the country right now?
Obviously. How else would you get these Nazi rallies?
"You're right," Fisheye says. "I should have set it on 'whip' or 'chop.'"
Well, give people the love and sense of belonging they've always hoped for, you're going to sway them towards your views.
See also: The film "This is England" (which is superb)
It is a proven, verifiable fact that you will get hired at Google if you get a sex change. I am not joking. That is a thing. Look at the numbers. Look at the studies. That's fucking ridiculous.
One can safely ignore anything else you have to say whilst waiting for someone who doesn't lie.
So, your argument is that women are underrepresented in IT because of leftists? Like, leftists are actively discouraging women from entering the field?
In a way, this is exactly what happened. Leftists hate STEM because it's the one realm of academia they can't control, so they herd women onto their side of the campus to pursue unmarketable degrees, thereby keeping them out of technical fields in which they would otherwise do better.
You can't make this shit up.
That's how they came to be in power...
Males who are low earners weed themselves out of the dating pool because women are hypergamic. For as long as you haven't solved that, males will not take on the lowest paying jobs.
Software is not supposed to be about how to work around a useability issue. - Ken Barber
Considering how women have a generally longer lifespan than men, women should only be allowed to retire at 10 years older than men.
Software is not supposed to be about how to work around a useability issue. - Ken Barber
I should have been less subtle: That's how extremists recruit the disaffected.
Sadly we seem to have circled back round to the education system failing poor white boys.
Sadly we seem to have circled back round to the education system failing poor white boys.
That's just a symptom of it failing everyone. Let's make it not fail everyone.
"You're right," Fisheye says. "I should have set it on 'whip' or 'chop.'"
damn those vegans! Joking aside, they should setup a second table with meat for carnivores, but I'm a meat eater :)
Well, in the UK it's legal to hire a woman ahead of a man. To hire someone that's BME ("black or minority ethnic", a phrase in use in the UK) instead of someone that's white.
I'm calling bollocks on this.
You're being disingenuous here. You haven't said it is required, you said it was legal.
What you've said is that if a more qualified woman or black person applies for the job, an employer is in no way obligated to accept a while, male candidate. OTOH, there is no law stating a less qualified candidate who is not white or male must be accepted. You're pretty much trying to do what Damore did in his memo, insinuate a conclusion and lie by omission.
Basically, you've said that no-one is being discriminated against, but tried to dress it up as a bad thing. I live in the UK, white male privilege is still very much a thing. Its not an automatic thing, you now have to work for that privilege (unless you're old money, but that's a different argument). White males are not discriminated against in any way, its just upset some people with outdated ideas that non whites and non males now enjoy this same privilege.
I'm calling bollocks on that too.
The nastiest and most vitriolic attacks are from the likes of the Daily Mail and they're not attacking white males with low intelligence (their core audience). In fact the only paper trying to convince me that white males are under attack... are papers like the Daily Mail. Not even the Guardian tries to say that white men are evil, that shit is entirely the DM's area.
No one is attacking you for being white or male, you're being attacked because you spout a lot of bullshit and the rest of us are sick of it.
Calling someone a "hater" only means you can not rationally rebut their argument.
See response to mjwx below.
What you've said is that if a more qualified woman or black person applies for the job, an employer is in no way obligated to accept a while, male candidate.
No, that's not what I said. Oh, and here's a reference for hiring women purely on the grounds of their gender:
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/new...
Here's one where the BBC are defending and claiming legality for offering paid work to people that must be non-white:
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/ente...
OTOH, there is no law stating a less qualified candidate who is not white or male must be accepted. You're pretty much trying to do what Damore did in his memo, insinuate a conclusion and lie by omission.
No, I'm just better informed than you and able to back up my statements with references. You merely throw around insults.
White males are not discriminated against in any way
Except the ways I mentioned in my original post, none of which you've been able to disprove.
Not even the Guardian tries to say that white men are evil, that shit is entirely the DM's area.
No one is attacking you for being white or male
Well, since you mentioned the Guardian, even they acknowledge that "In America, as in Europe, older, white men are the only group that liberals can abuse and exclude with impunity."
https://www.theguardian.com/co...
you're being attacked because you spout a lot of bullshit and the rest of us are sick of it
When even the fucking Guardian acknowledges the issue I think it shows that you're either ignorant, in denial or maliciously trying to prevent conversation.
So call bollocks on whatever the fuck you like, but do try and provide some fucking evidence next time.
I don't think the Trump base was highly paid STEM workers. There's a lot of white men out there wondering what happened to their world, since they can't do the same as their fathers and grandfathers did and get the same result. It used to be that, if you were healthy and had a good work ethic, and were a white male, you could get a job that would let you own a house and raise a family. That's no longer the case, for a variety of reasons, and it's never going to be the case again short of a collapse of civilization.
Some of them saw the town factory close, and think that it could open again and things would be good. In fact, if it were to open again, it would be more heavily automated, and wouldn't provide nearly the number of jobs.
What they really need to do is acquire useful skills, but it's a lot easier to blame things on others, and apparently they're gullible enough to think that, since Trump said what they wanted to hear, Trump would actually do something about it.
"When you have eliminated the unacceptable, whatever is left, however improbable, must be the truthiness" - Holmes
Do we treat everyone equally? There's a lot of cultural influences that will discourage women from going into technical fields.
When my son was on a competitive math team in junior high, there were about as many boys interested in math as girls. That went away as they got older. I find it highly unlikely that girls are interested in math, but for biological reasons women aren't. It seems to me that women face social barriers that should not be there.
Diversity is worth something on a team, so hiring for diversity rather than strictly talent can be a winning move.
If you haven't noticed, there are programs to get men into nursing (I don't know about white men in particular). We tend to follow tech stuff, and notice what's going on there more than what's going on in nursing.
"When you have eliminated the unacceptable, whatever is left, however improbable, must be the truthiness" - Holmes
I wouldn't work at a place like that. Well, maybe for a year as a first job, but I'd get out after that. Life's too short.
"When you have eliminated the unacceptable, whatever is left, however improbable, must be the truthiness" - Holmes
Indians, not White males are the most Racist people on Earth https://www.washingtonpost.com...
Casteism
In France, for a couple of years, we had a "Camp d'été décolonial" (Uncolonial Summer Camp, I kid you not) organized for people who have to suffer "institutional state racism", which is interpreted as "anybody but white". See https://www.marianne.net/socie....
I am all against racism. But you don't fight racism against black people by making a virtue of racism against white people.
-- Did you try Tao3D? http://tao3d.sourceforge.net
The last such training I had featured a video with women being inappropriate as well as men. But yes, being of the majority, I'm not particularly alienated by somebody feeling hostility towards white men as a class. They're just going to get shit-canned for not playing well with others eventually. If somebody started declaring me the white devil in a meeting, it would be more comical than frightening or intimidating which is why I'm struggling to understand why so many white men in this country are acting butthurt and frightened about problems we don't generally have.