Slashdot Mirror
Computer Science Degrees Aren't Returning On Investment For Coders, Research Finds (theregister.co.uk)
According to a new survey, coders with a bachelor's degree in computer science only earn 3,000 British Pounds (BP) more a year than those who don't have one. The survey of 4,700 developers in the UK was conducted by Stack Overflow, a community site frequented by developers for answers to technical questions. The Register reports the findings: This is despite the average degree now costing 9,000 BP a year in tuition fees alone. Average student debt is now more than 50,000 BP, according the Institute of Fiscal Studies. The research found that the median salary of those who did not have higher education was 35,000 BP per year, while those who gained a bachelor's degree earned 38,000 BP and postgraduates took home 42,000 BP. It found that 48 per cent of developers with less than four years of professional experience currently hold a Computer Science-related undergraduate degree, while 49 per cent had completed an online course instead. The research also found that JavaScript developers were most in demand, with almost 27 per cent of jobs advertised on Stack Overflow now requiring this skill, followed by Java (22 per cent), Python (16 per cent), C# (15 per cent) and ReactJS (9 per cent).
Degree this, percent that... Do you never get tired of the stupid fucking bullshit that's posted on this site 24/7?
Computer Science degrees aren't supposed to lead to jobs as "coders". That's like saying someone with a degree in mechanical engineering aren't getting a good return on their investment in the degree when they get a job doing oil changes.
You can learn coding in a couple of days. Computer science is something different.
I'll take a Biology, Physics, double-E, etc major who taught him/her self to code over a CS major any day of the week.
Demonstrate that you are smart. Then demonstrate the ability to learn and adapt.
And for the most part, they're stuck working long hours on full stack crap.
Get a degree and you open doors towards more advanced paths. Of course, you can do that without a degree, but you can do pretty much anything without a degree if you're a savant at self-studying and/or know the right people.
Degrees do not guarantee success, they just open doors. If you think otherwise, you're a fucking moron.
I'm not surprised.
Basically everyone I know in development is making over 100k, and I live in the midwest!
Too many degree mills just lead to absurd stats like these and this is the EU so....
Similar salaries don't do you any good when no one will hire you without a degree.
As somebody else put it: computer science is to computers in exactly the same way that astronomy is to telescopes.
You learn a bunch of stuff in CS, only some of which is of relevance to software development, and even that is of marginal importance to typical, everyday software development. Consider: what's the big O efficiency of a particular algorithm? Now, how important is knowing that when you're writing a business application? Most of the time, having an efficient, or elegant, algorithm matters less than having something that does the job properly. The greater the degree of abstraction, the more likely that is to be the case.
Which is not to say that a CS degree is useless, nor that efficiency is completely irrelevant. Only that the applicability of that knowledge, unless you're doing low level software development (embedded systems, OS kernel, that sort of level), is generally pretty low.
I have a bachelor of computing, majoring in computer science, with honours. I learnt a lot in doing it. But the amount of actual application it's had to my employment since I completed it is virtually zero. I have no regrets about having done it, and I'd absolutely do it all again if I had the choice - but I'm also under no illusions that it plays (or played) a significant role in my professional career.
who gets paid in pounds lol
Slashdot: providing anti-social weirdos a soapbox, since 1997.
This study is moot. Everyone knows tech salaries in the UK are way lower than American salaries.
CS degrees in the job market aren't about the pay scale.
They're about getting past the bureaucrats in the HR departments. So they're about being hired at all.
You can make as much (or even more) if you're a substantial programming talent even without a degree. But that does you no good if you have no job and make nothing.
Back in the late '60s (Minsky's "first period") a 4-year CS degree actually HURT employability. The schools were teaching a lot of stuff that wasn't really useful on a job (for instance: How often do YOU write a new compiler for some programming task?), and someone with a degree was viewed as having more to unlearn before he could focus on learning what the employer needed.
About the turn of the millennium it was nearly impossible for someone without a degree, regardless of experience and other credentials, to get a job at a US corporation.
Not sure what the situation is these days. (After a couple years out of work I helped found a startup. B-) )
Bantam Dominique roosters crow a four-note song. Once you've heard it as "Happy BIRTHday" you can't NOT hear it that way
I have designed and developed software and have had many different titles.
Programmer, engineer, analyst, systems analyst, software engineer, etc ....
And all of them had the exact same duties: take specs, design an algorithm when needed, and implement it in a programming language.
Some companies gave the title 'engineer' because that was how the pay grades worked.
Titles are also used to boost people's egos while the company gets away with paying shit. "It's not in the budget for a cost of living increase, but you've been promoted to systems engineer."
The worst one I've ever seen was someone who was promoted to 'scientist' - with just a BS.
Whatever, my title is software GOD and I have a long white beard, white flowing robes, and rub my feet on the carpet so that I can give little static shocks and call it my 'lightening bolts'.
only earn 3,000 British Pounds (BP) more a year
Can someone convert this to something I understand, like Dogecoins per fortnight?
Corruption is convincing someone that the selfless ideal is the same as their selfish ideal.
Last time I checked, giving a dumbass the ability to code, simply results in dumbass code :-P
I've spoken to hundreds of new grads and young developers and the cry is the same from many of them: the open source model of development has undermined the ability of good coders to earn. Developers are now expected to spend the most productive years of their lives developing software for free to be given away with so called "permissive" licenses such that corporations can simply use it without any kind of recompense. Only after those years of acting as essentially unpaid interns can a developer now hope to be hired. And then after years of toil, to be rewarded with outsourcing to cheap and incompetent Indian firms who charge pennies on the dollar for developers who don't have any qualifications other than learning how to compile code written by those self same developers when they were building their github portfolio!
When you really look at the history of "open source" you start to realize how it was created by corporate masters intent on turning a well paid profession into just another low paying service industry, with jobs easily outsourced and discarded.
Comparing the salary of a coder with a degree, to the salary of a coder without a degree, is apples to oranges. You want to compare the salary of an unemployed person to a coder without a degree. Most people go to school to learn the skill. A degree is nothing more than one type of proof-of-skill. Not every industry needs proof-of-skill to be hired.
I can't be the only one who is proud of their CS degree. The courses I took challenged me greatly, and often taught me the answers to questions that I didn't even think to ask. Maybe I was lucky, but the professors I had helped me expand my knowledge far quicker than I could have done without them. Their dedication to education showed, and made it far easier to learn the concepts, history, and practical application of software development and computer science in general.
I often hear that "I'd rather have a self-taught English major, because they show dedication and adaptability", and I respect that, but I this attitude also sort of dismisses the fact that CS students can be just as dedicated and adaptable, and also have a large amount of relevant knowledge on the subject. I have worked with people with and without degrees in the relevant field, and those with seem to lean on me far less than those without. Just my personal experience.
I wouldn't say that I'd be lost without my CS degree, but I doubt very much I'd be able to get where I am today as quickly as I did, without it. Plus, I really did love my classes, so even if it isn't a "positive return on investment" (which I still kind of doubt is really the case), I do not at all regret earning the degree.
Please use the £ pound sign, or use the exchange abbreviation GBP.
seems pretty obvious, why do a computer science degree if all you want to be is a coder? that is like doing a forestry degree because you want to work as a tree planter or a mechanical engineering course because you want to work as a mechanic in a car service centre.
Telescope Builders are often only mediocre Astronomers.
Big surprise!
We suffer more in our imagination than in reality. - Seneca
Nomsg.
Computer Science degrees aren't supposed to lead to jobs as "coders".
The thing is, for most people they still do - but what it should help with is getting to some kind of architecture position a bit faster. I don't think most people would want architects that had not done substantial coding though, right? I believe the term we had for that at one place I worked was "Architecture Astronaut" because the were so far out of touch with how real projects worked...
I do wonder if the huge cost of college these days makes it worth getting a CS degree anymore... but there is a pretty high intangible value to a lot of what you get from a CS degree, so I'd say that answer is probably still yes if you are at all interested in theory.
"There is more worth loving than we have strength to love." - Brian Jay Stanley
Almost all employers want you to work long hours and learn all the latest tech on your own time, self-teaching.
You have to look long and hard for the places with a reasonable work schedule. These places tend to use a bit older technology and value stability and predictability over the latest fad, although there still is some amount of fad chasing there too. You also need a big enough contract that it's not just you and one other guy who are responsible for *everything*.
who gets paid in pounds lol
More like who only gets paid 5 figures in pounds, euros, or US/OZ/NZ dollars? The results talk about 35k vs 38k when the starting base salary for a new grad in Silicon Valley is at least 6 figures. Apparently location is roughly an order of magnitude more important than this survey's concern about a degree.
so I'm gonna ask: If we know a CS degree is a poor return on investment doesn't that put it in the same boat as a liberal arts degree? e.g. something you do for fun that you probably shouldn't have?
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Well, I have a computer science degree, AND a math minor. I detect a math problem here.
Average salary with degree: 38,000
Average salary without degree: 35,000
Difference: 3,000
Cost of a degree (according to the article): 50,000
Divide 50,000 by 3,000, and you get 16.67.
So in 17 years, a degree DOES pay for itself, even if one accepts all the numbers as fact.
A computer scientist is assumed to be able to write high-quality software. But to them, that is just a tool - a means to an end. They aren't just trained to solve problems like "I need a C function to parse user strings". They solve problems like, "I'm thinking of using this new locking structure. Could you quick check it for possible deadlocks. Also re-implement it efficiently using hardware primitives." Or perhaps "So we just produced an algorithm for solving X. Check it for correctness and do a running time and space analysis." Maybe something like "so our kernel's TLB will use a given data structure. Is this a good choice? What are the performance implications? How much space will it occupy in memory? Can we improve it?". Or "We need you to do an audit of our proprietary compiler for possible performance/security issues."
Also more specialized problem areas like graphics, machine learning, programming languages, theory, optimization.... These areas are not for the mere mortal. These problems are reserved for the computer scientists.
So you see.... a computer scientist isn't a software developer. A computer scientist is a mathematician who specializes in discrete math, logic, and mostly abstract problem solving. If your university taught you anything less, you were short changed.
just as the ex-CSO of Equifax. She did pretty well for herself until something major blew up on her watch. And I've known lots of PMs making 6 figures with liberal arts degrees. Often being good at talking your way into a job is worth more than being able to do the job.
Hi! I make Firefox Plug-ins. Check 'em out @ https://addons.mozilla.org/en-US/firefox/addon/youtube-mp3-podcaster/
https://projecteuler.net/
THESE are the problems computer scientists are trained to solve. But also they are trained in modeling. As in, taking a "real life" problem and framing it in something resembling a problem for project euler.
But if the average college grad makes 3,000 more a year and had to pay 9,000 a year for 4 years that = ROI of 12 years. That may be bad but if you plan on working in a field for 12 years + it seems like a no brainer to me. This is assuming of course that you are working while going to college which I've done and is a breeze.
A job meeting your qualifications: Sit down @ a stall in a local gaybar lavatory & open "Jowie's suck service" - you will make the MOST INCOME you've ever made + you'll love your work!
I knew I should have majored in cocksucking to get ahead.
Still no jobs for computer science graduates.
In other fields you suck it too. Get real. Suck is what you do. You suck at computers so try use your skills as suggested.
On the contrary, you condescending piece of shit. I'm great at computers. I've written plenty of software and I've debugged even more. I've coded open source projects, and I've submitted patches to open source projects. No, you fucking turd, I what I suck at is sucking.
Every time I interview, on those rare occasions some moron with a job decides to abuse the jobless to fill an interview schedule, every moron always chants the same fucking thing every goddamned time: "soft skills, soft skills, soft skills, soft skills, soft skills, soft skills." Hard skills aren't fucking good enough for you scum! Well fuck you! My hard skills just keep getting better and better as I learn more hard skills. Still not good enough for you scum.
Soft skills, soft skills, soft skills, how the fuck would I ever learn soft skills when the only time I ever talk to anyone is when some moron invites me to a job interview to reject me for soft skills.
Well, you know what, asshole? FUCK!! YOU!!
We can do better than that. Any recent UK graduate who took out the loans for going to Uni will be paying it back directly from their wages. You can use a site like https://listentotaxman.com/uk-... to work out what this means for their income.
If I put in 35k without any student loan it comes out to 27,081.48 per year (2,256.79 pcm), after all deductions. For 38k with the 'Plan 1' (higher %age paid back per month) student loan repayments it comes out to 27,301.23 per year (2,275.10 pcm). Note that the amount taken out in loans doesn't affect how much is paid back per month, that's purely based on how much you earn over certain thresholds. And these loans are forgiven after 30 years if not already paid back. It's more like a tax targeted at those who took the loans in return for the education.
So the 'coder' with the degree and loans to pay back just barely makes more money on that median salary. Mostly my point is that it's not like they're netting less due to loan repayments.
Hahaha. Got a rise out of you. You're projecting. Software you ought to write is automating "Jowie's suck service" (lmao) & incorporate it (Boston Dynamics = good choice). We have no doubt of your hard skills hahahaha! Arduino and servos is another (lol).
Kill yourself.
RoTfLmAo https://developers.slashdot.org/comments.pl?sid=11141491&cid=55236697/ & just think: YOU could've been rich!
Most new UK graduates working in this field won't be getting £38k either. Outside London a senior software engineer wage tends to top out at £50k, or around $65k at current exchange rates.
Anyway, I don't understand the article as £3000 is about £2000 per year, meaning that there is a return, meaning student debts coukd be cleared using that extra alone in twenty years.
Disrupt the fleshlight industry with your innovative suckbot. You forgot to mention how suckbot will be controlled by a shitty app. Fuck you, millennial hipster troll.
No what I should do is build a killbot to kill your fucking ass.
Remove an avenue of fraud/abuse and you might see a bit more value in that direction.
"Forget the engineers." -Carly Fiorina, briber of MIT Technology Review.
Easier to do than you think. Superior product, rules. Fact alongside it makes it so. I squash advertising + malware this way & above all - give the consumers what they ask for (more than want). Has to create a need. You = guaranteed wealthy @ some point.
Well that's a bit odd seeing how when I put in my situation, a CS equivalent degree with one year of full time experience post graduation (didn't include the year of full time employment I got before graduating), into the StackOverflow salary calculator released a few days ago the calculator gave me an average salary of 54.000 GBP. Contrast that with the 35.000 GBP salary (which isn't too far off from what I'm actually making here in Finland) being reported here and I get the feeling that either the calculator is badly overestimating salaries or then salaries in the London area are way higher than in the rest of the U.K (which I guess is possible having heard of how expensive it is to live there).
"Why should I want to make anything up? Life's bad enough as it is without wanting to invent any more of it."
A degree guarantees a broad understanding of computing related issues. Of course some people without a degree may have this, but these are a few of the things I have seen:
A business rule that had been modified a number of times by requests from the business; "do X when Y", "do X when Z but not A", "Assume A is false when not Y", and so on for many years. The result was a huge condition with brackets that could not easily be understood. Writing it as a boolean expression and simplifying it revealed that several of the variables in the conditions were not relevant (it did the same thing when they were true or false), much of the complexity was because some test was being applied in multiple conditions and the whole lot simplified down to a short clear expression.
A coder had produced a phenomenal amount of code, counted by lines. In peer review it turned out he didn't understand how to call library classes, and copied the library code into every module which used it
A coder defined a macro defining the boolean "or" "|" as "and"! It turned out that he was totally confused by an expression opening a file as F_READ | F_WRITE, and thought that the compiler writers and everyone else in history had got "or" and "and" the wrong way round.
A definition which was obviously a finite state machine written as spaghetti code, where all that was needed was a table of state, event, action, new-state
This is a legend in our company. An Array copy function defined, despite one being available as
# This function only works on arrays up to size of three elements
A[0] = B[0]
if (B.size > 1)
A[1] = B[1]
if (B.size > 2)
A[2] = B[2]
if (B.size > 3)
A[3] = B[3]
And yes, the language had loops and a built-in array copy function.
'BP' is British Petroleum. You meant GBP. Or you could just say £.
In the 1980 America outsourced manufacturing over seas. Now, the H-1B program is the outsourcing of education. The loss of manufacturing jobs has created social unrest, just think what the loss of education will do to developed countries. But not only is it bad for the people, it is bad for the economy. GDP is calculated as C + G + I + (E - M) where M are imports. As we bring is H-1B workers that imports both Labor and Knowledge reducing the GDP. And Solow's growth model is Growth = is a function of both Labor and A(knowledge). Again H-1B program reduces real growth by reducing real labor and knowledge with imported labor and knowledge. Growth is now a function (L -import-L, A - import-A). And most companies want code monkeys, someone that does not have a broad range of computer knowledge but know how to do one thing. With higher education costing so much, the student debt make it hard for native computer majors to compete. Nike in Beaverton Oregon is laying off 800 people, but still hiring H-1B workers.
That's why get a degree in Software Engineering instead.
BP my arse.
"pounds sterling", "GBP" (that's the ISO code) or just plain old "pounds" are all acceptable.
You could use the symbol (the one that looks like a curly L, not the one like a sharp sign), but slashdot would probably convert it to [(*Ä*)] or something.
Chunter chunter comprehensives chunter chunter Wilson.
Confucius say, "Find worm in apple - bad. Find half a worm - worse."
Once, management finally realizes to that coders without a degree are in most cases actually far more expensive due to lack of skill and limits in what they can do, those without that degree will find themselves unemployed pretty fast and pretty permanently. The funny thing is that the coders without degree do not realize what they miss. Sure, as long as it is simple business logic, almost anybody could do it. But as soon as it gets more complicated, I have yet to find a coder without CS degree that actually gets it and that is really expensive in the long run.
Most ACs are not even worth the keystrokes to insult them. Be generically insulted by this and ignored otherwise.
Heh, heh, computer "science."
I don't know there are a lot of assumptions about what is CS degree, its probably different now. Eg: version control software, mobile phones+software development were not in the course.
This was my CS degree in a nutshell from early 2000's. The Software engineers did 80% the same subjects.
There were plenty of electives: eg: i could add subjects for math, ethics, or neural networks, video games, social-science, electrical engineering, operating system design and probably few more.
1st year undergrad:
*Some sort of introduction to SWE: usually java/c++ (or both).
*Some sort of SWE #2 course. (bring in the algorithms, more Object Oriented concepts)
*Discreet maths.
*Ethics course.
*Basic start on Web stack, usually the fundamental ideas of networking + HTML, CSS, Javascript.
*Basic EE logic gates, basic components of computers.
2nd year undergrad:
*Introduction to graphics course, rasterise objects how frame buffers work, bottom up understanding of graphics and some specific low-level graphics programming.
*SWE #3 course: more algorithms, more on how to tackle problems transforming requirements into code.
*Database theory, learn one of the major DB systems out there. SQL.
*Formal modelling of logic for critical areas of the code (where an error could cause physical harm to someone).
*Computer architecture intro: how IO works, how compilers work,assembly language.
*Algorithms course, Big/little Oh, Turing, types of computation, many may algorithms, new and old, fast and slow. Build your own.
*Ties together full web stack for writing deploying web pages. server side/client side, setting up a web server, security, was basically LAMP plus multiple physical computers/load balancing/fail safe.
3rd year:
*SWE #4, The big software project: Working in teams, development paradigms, writing code with other people, documentation at a professional level. (Usually went into another part of the Uni and helped another field eg: write medical software/bioinformatics)
*Comparative languages. A variety of languages eg: scheme/lisp stuff through to perl, python etc.
*Concurrent programming: fine-course grained parallelism, threads, breaking apart problems to make them concurrent, debugging, signals/semaphores, the tradeoffs.
*Compiler design: write a compiler, design a language.
*3d computer graphics course. Basically understanding stuff the the level of quake video game. Build a 3d engine.
*All the security/software vulnerability, history of malware, almost up the the point how to write a virus/virus scanner/. Test code for security issues.
*Machine Intelligence, theory of AI, neural networks, use machine learning to solve a problem + integrate into a SW project.
What is the CS degree like now?
I think the register article is looking at a very narrow requirement which could be satisfied by non-degree but that misses the point.
You could train for job X and just follow the branches off a tree of skills that fit exactly what job X requires. Juxtapose that to CS/Engineering degree and its the whole gaumut/scope of that field. Its the platform on which you stand to THEN specialise to fiat any such job.
The larger issue is as long as there is involuntary employment with the inherent instability of market based solutions you're guaranteed to have a 'working' skills shortage. The graduate is not enough because the company does not want to take a graduate and develop their skill into the specific tools set instead they want a ready made person who by sheer coincidence uses every little tool they currently develop software with.
London is swimming in finance money, right? Why such low salaries? Eastern European immigrant labor? What's the deal?
Do they mean £ ?
Or 'GBP' if you really have to? The Great British Pound is never referred to as 'BP' - except in Slashdot, of course...
Sorry - 'Climatedot'.
I guess it's good to know it isn't just us, but it's also sad to know it isn't just us.
Programming can be learned either in school, or by personal study.
On average, school may make a more complete understanding, but at the edge of the distribution there are some outstanding folks who learned on their own.
This study assumes that each person can learn either way and it's just a matter of cost to get to a job.
The proper question is how many of the schooled programmers could/would have figured it out on their own?
My guess is that once you remove the outliers, you would have a lot of table waiters instead of programmers if you took out school.
My company has many openings, but we want certifications of practical work, not computer science degrees. Computer Science degrees are for research institutions, that also expect you have degrees in mathematics and the sciences, possibly an engineering degree too.
I never fell into this trap because when I finished high-school, I called up various company recruiters for jobs I wanted in the future and told them that I don't have any qualifications or such right now, just finished school, but I will go do the courses/training they're looking for. I got told to do CCNA, MCSE etc. No university work. I did about 2-3 months of studying various certifications, it took about another month for my certifications proper to come in and I got into the industry instantly after that, no problem.
No it isn't. you just didn't go to the institutions that want it, nor did you get all the per-requsits necessary for it that I noted above.
Change is certain; progress is not obligatory.
The vast majority of the time, you don't need a CS degree to write a business application. These days it's mostly CRUD operations using some web stack and database, governed by some business logic. You don't need a CS degree to effectively do that.
We need to take a lesson from the material world. We have materials scientists who invent new materials and do some engineering when an extremely deep understanding of the underlying physics and chemistry is needed. But 99% of the time, a structural engineer is the one who designs how to build a building/bridge/whatever. And typically that structural engineer has a much better understanding of how to put the pieces together in a far more practical way.
We should be aiming for a similar split in computers. We need computer scientists who advance what computers can do and deal with very hard problems. But the vast majority of the time we need a software engineer to assemble what the computer scientists invent into a business application that is secure and just keeps working even when the shit hits the fan.
For example, a computer scientist would generally not need to worry that much about things like failover and automatic recovery since they're primarily building prototypes and testbeds. Just like a materials scientist doesn't spend much time considering "what if a hurricane struck my lab during this test?".
But a software engineering degree could focus a great deal on writing software the just keeps working in very adverse conditions just like a structural engineer has to consider a natural disaster striking the building.
Over my 20 years doing this, I've come across a lot of very elegant systems that are wonderful computer science....and they instantly exploded as soon as they had to deal with something slightly outside what the developer considered.
I wonder how well the degreed developers do vs. the non-degreed ones, when it comes to career longevity, opportunities for advancement to lead or management positions, more deeply technical positions involving system architecture, etc. Computer science isn't all about coding JavaScript.
Downmodding is the refuge of the weak. Don't downmod, make a better argument!
Thing is, the people who got jobs as developers without a degree are a subset of driven and talented programmers. Those with degrees on the other hand include some people who aren't as good but the degree helps them get their foot in the door anyways. The guys with no experience and no degree have to be the able to really demonstrate skills to get an entry level position.
Its not as simple as "degree not worth it"
FFS it's GBP, not BP. Who wrote this?
- Dan
I'm a network engineer with over 30 years of experience in I.T.
Of course the degrees are not providing a return on investment. That's because the I.T. industry is mostly experience driven.
If you apply for a job with me, I will give you a written test and a hands on test, and the person that successfully passes the tests the quickest will get the job, and I don't care if you have a high school diploma or a PhD in Computer Science. The piece of paper does not generate me results.
Mostly it's schools that insist you have a degree, but they are kidding themselves, and paying a premium for a piece of paper. Knowledge is knowledge regardless of by what means it was obtained.
Don't worry about the stupid computer science degree. Just train and practice your skills and self teach and get specialized product education from those that manufacturer the products themselves (Microsoft, Cisco, Intel, etc.)
My company has many openings, but we want certifications of practical work,
Cocksuckers, got it.
I never fell into this trap because when I finished high-school, I called up various company recruiters for jobs I wanted in the future and told them that I don't have any qualifications or such right now, just finished school, but I will go do the courses/training they're looking for.
You sucked cock to get a job, got it.
No it isn't. you just didn't go to the institutions that want it, nor did you get all the per-requsits necessary for it that I noted above.
Didn't suck cock. There are always jobs for cocksuckers. Cocksucker.
... it's shocking that no one has called out the "jobs advertised on Stack Overflow" part, since who knew SO even had jobs? who advertises jobs on SO? can these jobs be representative of jobs on real job boards people actually know about and linkedin?
The autistic loner stereotype is a decade out of date. Successful computer experts today are purple haired lesbians who spend their entire lives on social media, twittering away while they commit code to git every day. Autistic white male nerds have no chance of getting jobs, not even dead end jobs.
I don't give a shit about what consumers want. The only product I want to make is a product that genocides your fucking ass. Die, all of you, die.
Untrue! You're too lazy to start Jowie's suck service (hahaha) for yourself so I doubt you can threaten anyone (other than yourself).
Once i saw my BS degree dribble, i specialized in other fields where programming made a good suppliment to the role. Making 150 to 160k per year in 3 different fields i would have never considered after college. More time off than i expected as well (work only 4 days each week or less)
BP? British pounds? You mean £50,000? That's how I was taught to write it in school.
It's not that I'm lazy. I just don't care.
I can suck my own cock just fine. I don't care about your cock.
Because I don't need Jowie's suck service for my own benefit, I sure as hell am not going to start Jowie's suck service for anyone else's benefit.
Fucking die and reduce my overcrowding, you useless lumps of shit.
as mark twain puts it, "I don't let my knowledge interfere with my education"
I do understand that a CS degree will give you very important basic knowledge to succeed in a CS related career. However, that does not necessarily mean that not getting one will make you less competent.
I started coding at age 15 and pretty much was self taught from there. It was really hard in the beginning - getting picked for jobs without a degree but I pretty much worked my *** off a few years.
Even though I don't have a degree but I have read most books a CS grad will typically gone through. I started without a theoretical knowledge of algorithms, architecture, design patterns, best practices (among others) but I learned on the lot as I went along - through self paced courses, books but have been raising the complexity ever since
As a result, I am paid today more than a lot of engineers with more advanced degrees because of all the practical knowledge I amassed along the way. I even manage a few with a an advanced degree and their theoretical knowledge is not always necessarily better than a person with considerable experience who learned on the job.
I am not saying a degree won't teach you anything useful. However to make a blanket assumption that people without a degree will not have the same knowledge
people will often ridicule people without a degree by talking about the specific case of a person who went through a single short bootcamp... and I agree, this will not make you all of a sudden a master developer . This ignores the people who are self taught, went through multiple classes informally and end up with the same knowledge... if not even better.
No, it's just a policy to look for people with practical skills. If you're coming with zero experience and just a Computer Science Degree, you'll still go through the practcal interview process, but likely to fail because you have no knowledge of MCSE, CCNP practical knowledge, even though is is an 'openbook' practical, meaning you're free to Google and use any common operating system (in the clould) and tools accessible to you (hint: most people who just a CS degree fail).
I trivially found the requirements for the industry I want to be in and got into it, didn't waste eight years studying. Cry some more.
Change is certain; progress is not obligatory.
So, nobody mentions that it's cheaper to higher some company in India to do the coding than it is to higher local workforce. Doesn't matter how skilled you are. The business man's skills are always for the shareholders benefit no matter how dumb it is.$$$$
Computer science is a dead field, you goddamed lying trolls. Fuck you!!
With a charming personality like that, I don't understand why you weren't their first choice?
you'll still go through the practcal interview process, but likely to fail because you have no knowledge of MCSE, CCNP practical knowledge, even though is is an 'openbook' practical, meaning you're free to Google and use any common operating system (in the clould) and tools accessible to you (hint: most people who just a CS degree fail).
So you memorized all the bullshit answers to all the bullshit questions to bullshit your way into the social club. Meanwhile those CS people you deride have more depth and breadth of knowledge about the rationale behind your canned bullshit answers than you will ever have. But CS people haven't memorized the answers to your practical interview test word for word. Rote memorization is the only way to pass. Understanding is irrelevant.
I trivially found the requirements for the industry I want to be in and got into it, didn't waste eight years studying. Cry some more.
Cry? No. How about I just murder you? You know, back in high school, I was voted most likely to be the next Charles Manson. Maybe my peers were right. I should follow my calling. There's nothing for me in this world, except to kill overpaid shit like you.
Soft skills Soft skills Soft skills Soft skills
whyyyyyyyyyyy
Memorized? Nope, I could just do the job with the practical work right there and then, including things that I didn't have training for because I understood the software well or intuitively apply what I learned from one peice of software to another.
I'll give you an example of a practical I give to someone who is applying for a job that deals with webservices and SSL management:
You will find most certifications actually don't cover this, nor do CS courses usually. However certifications for adminstration familarize you with operating systems and tools sufficiently that you can actually figure out more or less what you need to do, to get the job done and understand how to use Google to figure out what you need. So, memorisation isn't really a thing here either.
This is what the practical it self tests, whether you're able to actually get the job done, because with an ever changing IT landscape, being able to do the work in an environment that is changing due to disruptions constantly in the industry.
It is relevant, that's why they don't get the job most of the time. The vast majority I interact with can't even grasp what 'strace' is or how to debug a userland application with it.
Let's meet and talk first. Front entrance, Belfast City Hall, Belfast, Northern Ireland. 12:00, October 5th.
The only reason why I get paid well is because there are so few people in the industry that can actually do the work I do (I'm a heavy generalist - I can do development in x86 asm, m68k asm, c, c++, c#, java, python, perl, rust, go to a very senior level. I can do system administration/devops to very senior level. I do reverse engineering work on protocols, software and hardware. I can build custom embedded platforms from scratch. I can do project management, bid work and architect work. I can do datacenter work, including architecting etc - I didn't learn any of this from certifications) do it well, do it quickly and relatively future proof it.
Change is certain; progress is not obligatory.
Who would've guessed spending years in an institution learning outdated programming languages would be a waste of time. Meanwhile you can get better courses online for fraction of the price and still hold a job without killing yourself with stress.
Is there no demand for computer scientists in the UK? That 35000 GBP is only $47377 USD. I wouldn't intern for that salary! Someone was saying that can't find a job but I can't even look at my LinkedIn without stirring the dust for recruiters. I'd think this is the same for any other US software engineer. Is there really not tech demand over there? I worry for my brother-in-law finishing up school! He might have to come over here.
What about the cost of scrappy hacked up software? I find computer science degrees valuable because practioners understand algorithms, good construction practices, and general computing terms better than other generic IT workers. Especially true in embedded software design. The cost to maintain code written by hacks, and potential bugs might not be considered at this point. Pay will eventually work out over time, and, I think CS degree holders might find work easier when economy slows.
I do a lot of work with 3rd-parties and SSL. One of the issues that happens time and again is when I ask for the public key to install, they send me the private+public pair unencrypted via email and now I have their wild-star EV private cert that expires in 2 years. Just because someone can do the job doesn't mean they're competent.
I can imagine. I've worked with a few companies that specialize in security and had my fair share of ridiculous experiences.
I would argue if they aren't competent, they can't do the job.
Change is certain; progress is not obligatory.
3,000 BP annually is 90,000 BP more over a career! That seems like a great ROI to me.
Taken another way, the average degree is 9,000 BP per year, then it would be 36,000 BP it you complete in 4 years. 3,000 BP per year / 36,000 is 8.33% ROI. I would take that return any day of the week.
I would argue if they aren't competent, they can't do the job.
Ideally, yes. The problem is they seemingly can do their job. Most people's competence are gauged by how quickly they can make a symptom go away, not how correctly they fix the root problem. Like a hospital that ranks doctors by how quickly they get through patients, and a doctor just hands out pain killers like candy. All they did is externalize the cost.