Apple: iPhones Are Too 'Complex' To Allow Unauthorized Repair (vice.com)

Jason Koebler writes: Apple's top environmental officer made the company's most extensive statements about the repairability of Apple hardware on Tuesday: "Our first thought is, 'You don't need to repair this.' When you do, we want the repair to be fairly priced and accessible to you," Lisa Jackson, Apple's vice president of policy and social initiatives said at TechCrunch Disrupt in San Francisco. "To think about these very complex products and say the answer to all our problems is that you should have anybody to repair and have access to the parts is not looking at the whole problem."

Apple has lobbied against "Fair Repair" bills in 11 states that would require the company to make its repair guides available and to sell replacement parts to the general public. Instead, it has focused on an "authorized service provider" model that allows the company to control the price and availability of repair.

Comments

Whaaaaaat?

[slashmydots]

Apple is lying and exaggerating about something to make more money? WHAAAAAAAT? This is my surprised face. The only thing that will stop them is laws, the end. We need right to repair laws and that's that.

Re:Whaaaaaat?

[philip456]

I'm always surprised that Americans love the free market, except when it effects them.

What ever happened to "Well you agree a contract when you buy an iPhone. If you don't like it's terms, such as repair provisions then don't buy it. That's the free market. If enough people don't like it, they won't buy it, demand goes down, there's too much supply and they'll have to change the contract."

I think that this is a stupid viewpoint but I laugh when I hear the cognitive disassociation from Americans who love free enterprise and free market but want more regulation.

Re:Whaaaaaat?

[Anonymous Coward]

The way we're going, within the next 5 years everything tech will be locked down. No more tinkering for the average person. A Permanent Surveillance State is where we are headed, this is what the powers that be want, citizen. Prepare for that large boot coming down fast from above you.

Re:Whaaaaaat?

[olsmeister]

You are completely mangling the way most free marketers would think about this. The better way is to let anyone hang a shingle as an iPhone repair specialist. Maybe they'll be able to fix them, or maybe they'll be too complex and unrepairable. If the former, the shop will be successful and prosper. If the latter, and they permanently screw up enough phones, people will go elsewhere to an authorized repair center and the shop will close.

Re:Whaaaaaat?

[Ol Olsoc]

Apple is lying and exaggerating about something to make more money? WHAAAAAAAT? This is my surprised face. The only thing that will stop them is laws, the end. We need right to repair laws and that's that.

So when Apple is forced to write a repair manual, and sell you the replacement parts, will they also be required to sell you the machinery to repair the phones?

Or do we change all components over to through hole from SMT? While Apple detractors find this amusing, it isn't like it won't affect Samsung or other manufacturers.

First thing we have to do is define repairable. Then we have to define the level of acumen needed on the part of the user. I've got the equipment to work on SMT boards, you need a microscope, various methods of soldering, depending on what you are doing. But at a bare minimum, you need a tiny tip soldering iron, and your hands better be steady. So I can do rework.

So is the repair person defined as my ability, or by the hypothetical Grandma? Is the repair definition at the component level, which will mean the phone will almost certainly need a total redesign and will end up much larger.

I've done actual physical work on smartphones. Perhaps 1 percent of us will have the ability to work on those tiny components.

Will the cost of the (hundreds?) of different repair manuals and the required stockpiling of all of the components - and define how many years they must be available - 10 years perhaps? Will these be provided free of cost to the consumer? They have to buy them before hand.

And don't forget, this will apply to all devices, not just ones produced by the manufacturers you don't like. It's very easy to get some folks to support "something something because Apple". Be careful what you ask for - you just might get it, even if you never owned an Apple device.

Re:Whaaaaaat?

[Anonymous Coward]

Apple is lying and exaggerating about something to make more money? WHAAAAAAAT? This is my surprised face. The only thing that will stop them is laws, the end. We need right to repair laws and that's that.

I agree, but would argue that those are insufficient. A phone, is, to an extent a phone. It has common hardware. It should be possible to load an OS on a phone that it didn't come with, and it not to be that big a deal, even if it requires a special charging mat that somehow transmits the code, or something like that.

The hardware and the OS should be separable and replaceable and a reasonably selection of hardware should be permitted to run apple software. Maybe only the originals would be the most reliable, maybe not, but this lock in stuff needs to end.

Re:Whaaaaaat?

[srichard25]

"The only thing that will stop them is laws, "

What???? How about people just stop buying products from companies that adopt anti-consumer policies? Apple doesn't have a monopoly on smart phones.

We don't need a law for everything.

Re: Whaaaaaat?

[Anonymous Coward]

You being someone facetious. Most of the major repairs that need to be done to an iPhone aren't surface mount devices, it's replacing screens, or replacing daughter boards containing ports or buttons.

There is an entire industry of stores whose only purpose is to fix cell phones. That's reality. And reality trumps rhetoric.

Re: Whaaaaaat?

[Anonymous Coward]

I'm confused, humans at Apple can make the phone, but humans that buy the phone are not smart enough to repair it?

Are they not hiring people anymore? Some kind of super cyborg?

First it's this, then it's John Deere telling you where you can drive your tractor.

Re:Whaaaaaat?

[Anonymous Coward]

I'm always surprised that Americans love the free market, except when it effects them.

Americans do love the free market. The whining comes from the Progressive mindset.

Re:Whaaaaaat?

[Anonymous Coward]

I am always surprised that people can't tell effect from affect.

Re: Whaaaaaat?

[Anonymous Coward]

Dude. For a guy with the skills to repair stuff like this you're entirely missing the point...which comes down to "how much do you charge?"...ut's not about everyone being able to fix their own shit but that someone other than Apple can and charge appropriately for parts and labor.

I can fix a whole lotta shit on cars, though not as much on newer one. So a lot of stuff that can wear out I can handle, o.k. also far more well off than I used to be so I can take my cars in to get them fixed/services. I have a BMW Z4 M Coupe, I do not have to take it to BMW for service. It's already 9 years old but in awesome shape and I love it. Until some government wonks decide to kill gas vehicles I'll keep it, hopefully till I did. So call it another 20 years. So 29 years, that's at least how long I expect it to have parts avaiilable for, though near the end I might reasonably expect to use 2nd hand ones.

Now, a phone isn't a car and doesn't cost nearly as much so I and most others probably wouldn't expect to keep their phone for 30 years, but 10 would be nice. Heck, I just replaced my Note 2 with this Galaxy 8 I'm using, that's 6 years so not bad, I think I got my money's worth.

Re: Whaaaaaat?

[Anonymous Coward]

I broke my SE screen yesterday. I went into the Berkeley Apple Store on iPhone launch day. $30 and an hour later I had a new screen.

It's going to tough to compete with that service, location, and price.

Re: Whaaaaaat?

[Anonymous Coward]

What do u mean by "should"...as in "good business practices or the government forcing them to? I don't agree with the latter, if a company doesn't give u what u want, don't buy their shit.

On the other hand a company like Apple should not be allowed to stop someone from publishing an "Unauthorized Apple X repair manual using TM or Copyright law (presuming the manual was clean room not just a copy of their own) because the author uses "Apple" or "Apple X" in the manual as such use is simply Factual and talking about the thing being discussed. I don't know if they'd actually win a lawsuit in this respect but you can be rest assured they'd try at least to maybe bankrupt the guy who write it or the it up in litigation long enough for it to be useless. In this type of situation the law should allow for or make Apple (or similar) pay a bejesus amount of money to the guy if they lose.

Re: Whaaaaaat?

[Miamicanes]

A lithium battery has a finite lifespan. It's guaranteed to eventually need replacement, and unless Apple is literally molding the lithium gel around the circuit board in a way that makes its replacement physically impossible, they should be required to sell replacement batteries at a fair price (or if they don't want to, then they shouldn't be allowed to prevent anyone ELSE from making compatible replacements).

A mechanical button or poorly-attached microUSB likewise has a finite life... a life that might very well be less than the reasonably-expected life of the phone.

Screens break and crack. It's just something that happens to glass when dropped.

A good step forward would be for the FTC to require manufactures to explicitly disclose the repair cost & minimum availability for key components at purchase. Ex:

Battery: 1 year free warranty, guaranteed availability for a maximum charge of $n until yyyy/MM/dd(*)

Screen: 1 year free warranty for defects, guaranteed availability for a maximum charge of $x until yyyy/MM/dd, and $y until YyYy/Mm/Dd

Electrolytic Capacitors: 10 year warranty, or replacement with newer model (not necessarily the newEST model) that's at least as good.

Buttons & connectors: 1 year warranty, 5 year guaranteed availability of repair with maximum charge of $k(*).

(*) And if they can't satisfy the repairability guarantee, they'll have to refund some fair fraction of the original purchase price based on age (say, 100% up to 18 months, 80% after 18-24 months, decreasing by another 10% per 6 months thereafter).

I'd even allow them to be assholes & enforce absurdly-short (or outrageously expensive) terms... as long as they were required to accurately & effectively communicate those terms to buyers at purchase, and really bend over backwards to make sure consumers know about terms the FTC deemed 'unreasonable'

concrete example: Consumer buys new iPhone 17 (or Samsung Galaxy S16, or Google VoxelQ). The manufacturer guarantees battery-availability only until 8/31/22, which is less than 60 months from the date of first sale. After opening the box, the phone is in another sealed box with prominent federally-mandated warning (in English & Spanish for US phones) that says something like, "Warning, the manufacturer of this phone has chosen to not guarantee the availability of replacement batteries after 8/31/22. The FTC has determined that 80% of batteries will have less than 50% of their original capacity after 8/31/21. By law, you have an absolute right to return this phone to the seller for 100% refund and full cancellation of all contractual obligations and shipping charges arising from its purchase without charge as long as this seal is not broken. This right can not be waived or limited, regardless of seller policy or conditions of sale."

ie, the Feds couldn't *stop* Apple (& others) from being assholes, but they could ensure that consumers KNOW Apple (& others) are being assholes & protect them from being victims unless they're absolutely HELLBENT on being victims. As long as the FTC's threshold for requiring the warning was reasonable enough for most vendors to avoid, its presence would be effective & would subject the mfr. to criticism & ridicule from magazines, reviewers, and probably late-night comedians. The key is to make sure it doesn't turn into a stupid, pointless warning, like "Warning: may contain peanuts" on a jar of peanuts or peanut butter.

Consumer protection laws with teeth can and do work. Just ask anyone who was given a hard time by underlings or junior staff about getting a warranty repair for a jailbroken iphone or rooted Android phone until they summoned the manager & invoked the magic phrase, "Magnuson-Moss Warranty Act"... at which point the manager, if he had any sense & valued his job, apologized *profusely* for the "misunderstanding" and *personally* made sure the phone got fixed, because anything else would risk a $50,000 per incident fine and mountain of subs

Re:Whaaaaaat?

[Jahoda]

What???? How about people just stop buying products from companies that adopt anti-consumer policies? Apple doesn't have a monopoly on smart phones.

Well, being that an informed consumer is considered necessary for optimal functioning of the free market, in lieu of such legislation, I guess maybe we could simply mandate that Apple broadly advertise this repair policy, and not in fine print, upon the purchase of every device. Would that satisfy you?

Re:Whaaaaaat?

[Anonymous Coward]

You are missing the point. Apple is specifically trying to stop people like you from repairing iPhones and macbooks. Apple do not want you to sell your skills to the public so that you can fix their iPhones.

In practice, it's difficult for them to stop you from replacing a blown polyfuse or damaged connector. But they're working hard to make sure that larger modules (like screens, switches, etc.) can't be replaced.

Re:Whaaaaaat?

[Applehu Akbar]

Right To Repair really means "right to try to repair." It will not force manufacturers to make it more convenient to repair their stuff.

Just try to repair a Microsoft Surface.

Re: Whaaaaaat?

[Ol Olsoc]

A lithium battery has a finite lifespan. It's guaranteed to eventually need replacement, and unless Apple is literally molding the lithium gel around the circuit board in a way that makes its replacement physically impossible, they should be required to sell replacement batteries at a fair price (or if they don't want to, then they shouldn't be allowed to prevent anyone ELSE from making compatible replacements).

So if I get you straight, all of the iPhone repair facilities that are not owned by Apple INC are operating illegally?

Because there are a lot of them, which is why I call bullshit on this whole lawsuit business, it's almost like patent trolling.

Here is one place we'll look athttps://www.cellphonerepair.com/smartphone-repair/iphone/

Right off the bat, this is not Apple, so since it is at present impossible to have anyone repair an iPhone, this must be fake news, eh?

But let's delve into this fantasy nonexistent, and probably fake site. We'll see what they offer: iphone 1st generation - check iPhone 3 - check 4, 5 6,7,8. Check check check check check in all their iterations. But wait! Batteries, start buttons, home buttons. Apple doesn't allow anyone else to repair their phones, so they can't have that!

Screen-check, Power button-check, Water damage-check, Motherboard-check, camera-check-battery replacement-check.

Even back to the first generation, they have screen replacement, antenna, memory card reader, cracked glass, battery replacement, headphone jack, charging port, replacements.

So forgive me if I call bullshit, bullshit, bullshit. This is only a problem if you hate Apple, and want them to fuck off and die so much that the fact that non-Apple repair and replacement services that can repair the first iPhones made is fake news and a lie, and doesn't exist.

Because it does, and lieing for Samsung is sufficient if the Applehate makes lies the truth.

So do you still believe Apple is preventing repairs?

Re:Whaaaaaat?

[Anonymous Coward]

W-wouldn't that be.... laws.... though?

I'm glad you pointed this out actually. everyone hears "laws" and thinks there is only one solution, when protecting consumers can be as simple as requiring contracts make some things bold and obvious up front rather than allow them to be hidden.

Also, fine print should just be abolished in the first place. When someone hands you a 15 page contract to sign because you wanted to buy a cell phone, you'll realize you're getting fucked as now its rather obvious.

Re: Whaaaaaat?

[dougdonovan]

this is why i take my rolex to a chevy dealer.

Re:Whaaaaaat?

[Anonymous Coward]

I'm always surprised that Americans love the free market, except when it effects them.

  What ever happened to "Well you agree a contract when you buy an iPhone. If you don't like it's terms, such as repair provisions then don't buy it. That's the free market. If enough people don't like it, they won't buy it, demand goes down, there's too much supply and they'll have to change the contract."

I think that this is a stupid viewpoint but I laugh when I hear the cognitive disassociation from Americans who love free enterprise and free market but want more regulation.

Several points: I agree with you in that most of us Americans have an idealistic view of the market and govt. regulations and protections.

Unfortunately we Americans are pretty much forced to attend K-12, but I never had 1 day of economics education. In college I opted for 3 economics courses (did very well). I understand all of it, but sheeple would rather buy the shiny new awesome braggable thing.

Advertising has a great effect. Of course that only works if people are dumb sheep, but no matter what you do, some people will make poor choices.

Generally the American Colonies had little economic regulation. During the 1800s there were extremes of "Robber Barons" https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Robber_baron_(industrialist) and huge monopolies. The govt. had to crack down, and ever since we've had some degree of protection from shoddy products, bully tactics, etc. I forget when, but decades ago the US Fed. Govt. had to pass laws mandating that car companies had to produce parts for at least 10 years. They also mandated that anything emissions related had to be fully warrantied for 2 years (I thought it had been 6) and some things 8 years. https://www.epa.gov/air-pollution-transportation/frequent-questions-epas-office-transportation-and-air-quality

My point is, Americans think they're being protected, and sometimes eventually the govt. sees fit to pass regulations, but it's often years of struggle, if it ever happens.

It seems to me, in the computer world, manufacturers have a huge advantage over consumers.

Remember the "shrink wrap license"? http://whatis.techtarget.com/definition/shrink-wrap-license Seems like an obvious violation of common-sense and should be illegal, but to some extent they seem to continue.

It's been deeply researched analysed that there is too strong a connection and mechanism between govt. and corporations.

Re:Whaaaaaat?

[Ol Olsoc]

You are missing the point. Apple is specifically trying to stop people like you from repairing iPhones and macbooks. Apple do not want you to sell your skills to the public so that you can fix their iPhones. In practice, it's difficult for them to stop you from replacing a blown polyfuse or damaged connector. But they're working hard to make sure that larger modules (like screens, switches, etc.) can't be replaced.

My, thanks for the education. This is a lawsuit over people wh have come back from the future because they can't fix their iPhone 500S's. It really has nothing to do with present day (including iPhone 8 repairability)

I've gotten so many different answers why phone that I can repair if I want to, either can't be repaired, or won't be able to be repaired.

The strange thing is Apple no longer supports parts for earlier phones, but I can get an original iPhone fixed, the mind boggles.

Re:Whaaaaaat?

[Anonymous Coward]

Because those anti-consumer policies only become apparent much later on, after the consumer has been taken in. Of course, this quasi-fraudulent behavior pushes out better, more honest competitors... Why should I suffer because the average consumer can't reason beyond the next week?

Re: Whaaaaaat?

[Anonymous Coward]

You should have the right to repair at your own risk. Many people are not capable or educated in the proper repair safety procedures needed. I am a computer tech trained and retrained since the 1980s. I have repaired a few iPhones but getting oe parts is not an option (besides used). That is criminal in my mind.

well, they wouldn't be

[Anonymous Coward]

if you didn't design them that way.

Obvious BS detected...

[Timothy2.0]

Apple has lobbied against "Fair Repair" bills in 11 states that would require the company to make its repair guides available and to sell replacement parts to the general public. Instead, it has focused on an "authorized service provider" model that allows the company to control the price and availability of repair.

I can understand wanting only authorized techs working on their product, but it's a MASSIVE leap to go from that to lobbying in 11 states against "Fair Repair" bills.

Re:Obvious BS detected...

[drinkypoo]

I can understand wanting only authorized techs working on their product, but it's a MASSIVE leap to go from that to lobbying in 11 states against "Fair Repair" bills.

No, it really isn't. If those fair repair bills pass, then the law will explicitly prohibit only permitting authorized techs to work on their product. Lobbying against those bills is the only reasonable response for a company which doesn't want anyone repairing their products without their permission.

The root problem is that unrepairable products are literally destroying our biosphere. They're made intentionally unrepairable so that the user has to buy a new computer in order to expand it, like Jobs tried to do with the original Macintosh. In spite of his efforts, the engineers gave the machine some expansion capacity because they knew than an unexpandable computer was bullshit.

Re:Obvious BS detected...

[swb]

I can think of a couple of possible motivations (not a defense, but a potential explanation).

One, a lot of the "fair repair" movement sprung from the auto industry's use of proprietary diagnostic information. If you didn't have the factory diagnostics, which they only sold to dealers, you couldn't diagnose the problem. It's possible that the language in some state bills is generic enough to cover the auto case, but also cover the Apple case and cause Apple to make available a bunch of its proprietary software to third parties under the heading of "diagnostic equipment and software" that makes (more?) sense in an automotive context.

Two, it may force them to open up supply chains of parts to all comers. Apple may be reluctant to create the side business of selling a lot of parts to third parties, either constraining their own production capacity or just plain being expensive in terms of overhead.

Three, there may be ways which third party repair places can make claims of "OEM Approved Service Vendor" under these laws. The real definition is "we can buy parts from Apple", the marketing perception is "Apple approved repairs". Apple's brand image gets damaged by fly by night operators who do shitty work.

I'm not sure any of these are substantive, but I can see Apple worried about potentially broad "Fair Repair" bills that try to cover a wide swath of products, from cars to combines to industrial equipment to consumer products and find the vague language potentially unpalatable to their specific business.

Re:Obvious BS detected...

[p.g.king]

It's possible that the language in some state bills is generic enough to cover the auto case, but also cover the Apple case and cause Apple to make available a bunch of its proprietary software to third parties under the heading of "diagnostic equipment and software" that makes (more?) sense in an automotive context.

Can't see why it wouldn't make sense for devices other than automobiles, having to share tools they already have with others doesn't really seem any different. Why would electronics in a phone be any different to electronics in a car (which is what most of the auto stuff is really about)

Two, it may force them to open up supply chains of parts to all comers. Apple may be reluctant to create the side business of selling a lot of parts to third parties, either constraining their own production capacity or just plain being expensive in terms of overhead.

I can see this more, developing a fully fledged supply chain for lots of small value items is quite possibly a business apple don't want to be in, OTOH there are already suppliers of components who do just this, Apple being willing to supply one or two of those would resolve this issue. Anyone who has bought spares for cars knows that OEM parts are usually pretty expensive - buying all the parts individually to make a car is probably many times the cost of the car pre built. This could actually be a useful revenue stream if done right. Perhaps the real reasoning behind it is more that more people will be interested in after market parts rather than genuine apple parts.

Three, there may be ways which third party repair places can make claims of "OEM Approved Service Vendor" under these laws.

I can't see how this would be the case, but even if it somehow were surely the proportional response is to work on ensuring that the laws precluded that, rather than trying to ditch the laws altogether?

For many smaller manufacturers I can see why such laws are potentially problematic, it means they have to pass the costs of implementing onto the customers and that may in turn actually make them non-competitive. In the case of someone like Apple et al. I can't see how this really applies they aren't working on cut throat margins or lacking economies of scale.

I can also see though that Apple (like all the others) are a commercial entity, they are in it to make a profit, and things which may threaten the size of that profit are naturally something to engage with- the real question is going to be is the potential loss in customers (and then profit) due to repairability issues greater than the loss from any profitability of repairs and any loss of reputation/good will from poorly done repairs/sub standard third party parts? A question unlikely to have a definite answer.

Re:Obvious BS detected...

[Hognoxious]

Three, there may be ways which third party repair places can make claims of "OEM Approved Service Vendor" under these laws.

If a garage even displays a BMW logo they'll get hammered for trademark infringement unless they're actually a BMW approved dealer.

So yes, they can do it. Once.

Re:Obvious BS detected...

[Opportunist]

But lobbying for monopolies is so anti-capitalist it hurts.

But I guess capitalism today means "whatever benefits the corporations".

Re:Obvious BS detected...

[lucm]

I guess capitalism today means "whatever benefits the corporations".

That's what capitalism has meant since day 1. This is the definition: "an economic and political system in which a country's trade and industry are controlled by private owners for profit, rather than by the state."

Re:Obvious BS detected...

[Anonymous Coward]

Having replacement parts for sale even to authorized service providers can allow for people to make compatible "black market" compatible systems from the parts. It may be bulky but it can run IOS 11 and have all the cool new features of the iPhone X.

WTF have you been smoking?

Re:Obvious BS detected...

[Opportunist]

Actually it was supposed to be that the production means are in private hands along with the purchasing power to buy those produced goods and services. It was never supposed to allow the producing side to determine what gets produced, the original idea required that the demand side chooses those products that deliver to the expectation, thus enabling those that produce what is in demand to continue producing while those whose products do not meet the demand will either have to change their products or perish.

Right now the system is rigged so that the producer decides what may be produced. And that's more of a planned economy with the difference being that the private sector does the planning instead of the state. Other than that, it's a carbon copy of the communist model.

Re:Obvious BS detected...

[Anonymous Coward]

Indeed, this is where patents have had the opposite effect to what was intended.

Re: Obvious BS detected...

[Anonymous Coward]

What monopoly? You do not have to buy Apple shit you know. There are literally 10's probably 100's of other options that will do the same thing as Apple shit. By that I mean post stupid shit on /., update your FB account with Lol Cat videos or whatever. The hardware is barely if any consequence.

Re:Obvious BS detected...

[Anonymous Coward]

Bullshit. Capitalism is an economic system where the consumers are in control. Every dollar every person spends on every product he or she buys every single day is an endorsement of that product, the manufacturer who produced it, the store it was bought at, and the customer service experienced. If companies produce crap products or treat customers badly, the customers punish the companies by spending their money elsewhere or not at all.

I'm not a fan of Apple at all. I've never spent a penny on an Apple product and thanks to their communism, elitism, and arrogance I don't think I ever will. But please don't blame capitalism because so many people throw their money at Apple. They clearly think Apple is worth it and they have every right to disagree with you and I. If Apple's stuff is really deserving, then they will continue to make lots of money, our opinions not withstanding. Or, thanks to capitalism, maybe Apple isn't doing all that well after all:

https://venturebeat.com/2016/05/11/android-is-eating-apples-ios-market-share-everywhere

Re: Obvious BS detected...

[Anonymous Coward]

Go tell the dead Steve Jobs that you earned your money today...because either your a shill, too young to know better, stupid, just joking or some combination if all of those.

All technology is a history of 1 person or company seeing what someone else did and either doing the same thing or making it better(that includes cheaper for the same).

History lesson for you, Apple is famous for stealing the idea of the mouse and GUI from Xerox...a fucking "copying company" when I'm Steve and the Woz got a sneak peak at the Xerox Altos (a research system/idea). I don't blame them, but please stop shilling that Apple does what it does because It's somehow good for their users.

Re:Obvious BS detected...

[Anonymous Coward]

Once you put a product out there and I buy it, I own it, period. It's mine to do with what I want to do with. If you didn't make your money from the original sale, too bad. If I didn't buy it because you priced it too high, too bad. Once sold, it's now mine and I'll do any damn thing I want with it. Seller beware!
  Fuck your lawyers!

Re:Obvious BS detected...

[Anonymous Coward]

> I've never spent a penny on an Apple product and thanks to their communism, elitism, and arrogance

Hey now! Apple is certainly elitist and arrogant, but communist?

They're about as capitalist as a company can get!

Re:Obvious BS detected...

[drinkypoo]

But lobbying for monopolies is so anti-capitalist it hurts.

No, it's so capitalist it couldn't be more capitalist if it were in the dictionary under capitalism. Capitalism is where capital controls the means of production. What could fit that description better than a monopoly? Monopolies aren't anti-capitalism, they're anti-free market. Most capitalism to date has not been in a free market; there is always some kind of manipulation, collusion, etc.

The typical corporate goal of producing profit directly supports the activity of becoming as close to a monopoly as possible without getting in trouble for it. This is a natural consequence of capitalism, and it's the reason why you need some form of regulation in order for markets to operate for the maximum number of simultaneous participants. Capital accretes capital, so you need to limit that effect, or institute some kind of capital redistribution scheme.

Re:Obvious BS detected...

[lucm]

Bullshit. Capitalism is an economic system where the consumers are in control.

No. What you describe is consumerism. Capitalism means that people who put in the money needed for a business venture (the "capital") are the critical part of the system.

Re:Obvious BS detected...

[Anonymous Coward]

I can understand wanting only authorized techs working on their product

Why? It's not as if customers weren't able to determine when a repair wasn't successful or could blame Apple for a botched 3rd party repair.

Re:Obvious BS detected...

[Anonymous Coward]

Indeed, a lot of people seem to think that just having trade, markets, and banks is enough to define capitalism. The real root of capitalism is the use of money to make more money.

If you want to know in a few years why our financial system has collapsed, the answer is: lending for profit.

Re:Obvious BS detected...

[Carewolf]

Three, there may be ways which third party repair places can make claims of "OEM Approved Service Vendor" under these laws.

If a garage even displays a BMW logo they'll get hammered for trademark infringement unless they're actually a BMW approved dealer.

So yes, they can do it. Once.

That is not true. At least not in any country around here. They can't claim to be licensed, but they can always have BMW signs if they have expertise and that field or happen to have used BMWs for sale.

Re:Obvious BS detected...

[aberglas]

The big one is tractors and farm machinery. Farmers get screwed, and that matters in the mid west where many of these bills are coming from. Who cares about a $600 iphone when your $600,000 tractor is dead during harvest while only the authorized rep makes their way out to plug in their special computer for a very large fee.

Apple will ultimately lose by being so closed. They could have owned the entire mobile phone market, plus tablets, plus ultimately desktops. All they needed to do was make iOS available for a small fee to all the other manufacturers. Apple would still make a premiumly priced product with the very latest iOS. But there would be no Android nipping at their heels. The would own he App Store for everything. They would own software.

But they were born a greedy hardware oriented company, and that is how they will (eventually) die.

Re:Obvious BS detected...

[Hognoxious]

http://virtuosolegal.com/news-...

"Use of the two logos (the âoeBMWâ logo, and the âoeMâ logo) would confuse the public as to who is actually behind the services coming from Technosport. It gives the impression that Technosport are official partners of BMW AG, and considering they are not, takes unfair advantage of BMWâ(TM)s reputation."

https://www.uspto.gov/page/abo...

"the defendant's mark is likely to cause confusion in the minds of consumers about the source or sponsorship of the goods or services offered under the parties' marks [...] In addition to claiming likelihood of confusion, a trademark owner may claim trademark "dilution," asserting that it owns a famous mark and the use of your mark diminishes the strength or value of the trademark owner's mark by "blurring" the mark's distinctiveness or "tarnishing" the mark's image"

Re:Obvious BS detected...

[Attila Dimedici]

There is one problem with that definition, and it is intentional. It inserts a clause that is completely irrelevant to the economic system we call "capitalism" There is absolutely no reason for the phrase "for profit" in the definition. The appropriate definition of the system we call capitalism is "an economic and political system in which a country's trade and industry are controlled by private owners, rather than by the state." The purposes to which the private owners put a country's trade and industry are entirely up to them.If they use that control for profit, that is fine, if they use that control to benefit others,that is also fine. The key thing that makes it capitalism is that trade and industry are controlled by private individuals. --

Re:Obvious BS detected...

[Anonymous Coward]

Right, but not just controlled by private individuals (or groups thereof) - owned by them.

And of course, profit motive is the reason why people own businesses.

As the saying goes, if you're not making money, you have a hobby, not a business!

Re:Obvious BS detected...

[drinkypoo]

You don't need the logo. You can use the letters "BMW" in your own font, as in "we service BMW". That kind of use is typically protected because it's factual.

Re:Obvious BS detected...

[Anonymous Coward]

> a company which doesn't want anyone repairing their products without their permission

Well, once sold, it's no longer THEIR product. That's their mistake.

Re:Obvious BS detected...

[Opportunist]

The real root of capitalism is the use of money to make more money.

Funny enough, it isn't. In a perfect capitalist world, profit would be impossible. The impurities in the system make profit possible at all.

A perfect capitalist model would enable everyone to compete with everyone, thus forcing everyone to lower production cost to the bare minimum and only allowing to sell at this cost because a perfectly informed demand side would only buy products that satisfy their demand and, since all the products do this because all producers also know perfectly what demand exists, would then decide based on the lowest cost.

The very fact that profit is possible already shows that this is not a capitalist model we're living in.

Re:Obvious BS detected...

[Anonymous Coward]

Funny enough, it isn't. In a perfect capitalist world, profit would be impossible. The impurities in the system make profit possible at all.

With all due respect, you are dead wrong on this. The acquisition of material wealth, or exploitation of resources and labor to that end, is a defining characteristic of capitalism. Profit is the 'motor' of a capitalist system; it's not merely mercantilism, or trade or barter.

I can only encourage you to study the history of how the term and the system it refers to came into being.

Re: Obvious BS detected...

[Anonymous Coward]

I hope you're not in control of any branding, as you are completely off your meds.

Licensing iOS would make it another Android, but now have a ton of low end competition.

I don't think you understand why Apple is successful at all.

Re:Obvious BS detected...

[Attila Dimedici]

Except that not all of the organizations which constitute a country's trade and industry are businesses. Some of them are non-profit organizations. The overwhelming majority of the elements of a country's trade and industry under capitalism will be run for profit...of course that is also true under communism and socialism. Under communism and socialism the people who profit from the country's trade and industry will be solely those who are politically connected.

Then I guess they're too complex for me own

[darthsilun]

And I'll just have to buy something else instead.

Problem solved.

Re:Then I guess they're too complex for me own

[Anonymous Coward]

Christ, you are a fucking moron.

'Unauthorised' repairs

[Anonymous Coward]

Well I certainly wouldn't want anyone repairing my phone without authorisation.

That only leaves the question: if I were to go and buy an Apple phone, would it be my phone of theirs? I guess we knew the answer already though.

Amusing also after all the comments about 1984, how closely this fits to part of the story of Brazil. Shame they don't sell air conditioning.

Re:'Unauthorised' repairs

[sheramil]

Amusing also after all the comments about 1984, how closely this fits to part of the story of Brazil. Shame they don't sell air conditioning.

Shame there isn't an Archibald Tuttle who would rappel in, fix your phone, give you a jaunty wink and then rappel away again.

And then there's this

[fyngyrz]

I have a 2009 Mac Pro. It's a 12/24 core, 3 GHz-ish, 64 GB machine, lots of monitors. It's really pretty quick and there's certainly nothing wrong with it.

Apple, however, has made the next version of the OS unavailable to it, which in turn will make it slowly become incompatible with new software, etc.

I suspect that the whole "you aren't allowed to repair your iPhone" debacle is based on the same basic policy, which I would sum up as "screw you, customer, buy from us again or go without."

Particularly because the idea that no one but Apple's authorized money generators can repair an iPhone is patently absurd.

Re:And then there's this

[drinkypoo]

This is, of course, the history of the Macintosh. From the very start, Jobs didn't want anyone opening the case, and he didn't even want it to have any expansion beyond serial ports. He explicitly wanted the user to have to buy a new computer if they wanted to upgrade, producing revenue for Apple.

This is literally only business as usual for Apple, ever since the Mac.

Re:And then there's this

[dk20]

cant you find a "tool" that tricks the installer into doing its job and updating the OS anyhow? This is an artificial limit apple puts in and i thought easily defeated?

Re: And then there's this

[dnaumov]

This is 2017. How many years of support do you expect from Apple and what is this expectation based on when taking into account policies of all other hardware manufacturers?

Re:And then there's this

[slick7]

How can you have any pudding, if you don't eat your meat?
If you don't eat your meat, you won't get any pudding.

Re: And then there's this

[Anonymous Coward]

Ubuntu Linux runs great on my old MacBook pro. All the drivers work, even for my Wacom graphics tablet. Linux seems to be a great way to extend the useful life of aging computers.

Re: And then there's this

[msauve]

He's talking about an OS upgrade, what do the "policies of all other hardware manufacturers" have to do with it?

But, to the point, the Win10 requirements:

Processor: 1 gigahertz (GHz) or faster processor or SoC
RAM: 1 gigabyte (GB) for 32-bit or 2 GB for 64-bit
Hard disk space: 16 GB for 32-bit OS 20 GB for 64-bit OS
Graphics card: DirectX 9 or later with WDDM 1.0 driver
Display: 800x600

The GP has a "a 2009 Mac Pro. It's a 12/24 core, 3 GHz-ish, 64 GB machine".

So, it looks like Windows is doing a better job of supporting Apple hardware than MacOS is.

Re:And then there's this

[msauve]

"He explicitly wanted the user to have to buy a new computer if they wanted to upgrade"

Well, no. Apple offered 512K logic board upgrades to purchasers of the original 128K Macs.

Re:And then there's this

[michelcolman]

Now that wouldn't be so bad if they would not flat out refuse to repair your device.

I had a broken screen on my iPhone 5, which was otherwise just fine. I brought it in, the price would be about 150 euros which is a lot (you can easily get a replacement non-original screen for less than half the price) but I didn't want to risk getting an inferior screen, possibly even containing malware, so I went through the official channel. A bit later I got a call saying they had diagnosed my phone and found a problem with the battery as well. They "had to" repair that, too, and since it was going to be too expensive, I might as well get a replacement refurbished phone for more than 300 euros.

I insisted that my two year old battery was just fine (not quite lasting as long as when it was new, but sufficient for me) and only wanted a new screen, but no, they flat out refused. Apple only delivers devices in perfect working order with a three month warranty, so they could not just repair the screen, end of discussion.

I ended up getting a fake screen from some grubby repair shop after all. Works like a charm, by the way. And the battery still works just fine.

Re:And then there's this

[michelcolman]

I can sort of understand that, as they add more features to the OS, it becomes difficult to keep supporting older hardware. However, they also make it extremely difficult and even impossible for other software authors to support older hardware no matter how much effort they want to put in and no matter what their user base is. For example, if you want to support the iPhone X display (without black borders), you have to use the latest SDK, which only works with the latest version of XCode, which has a minimum deployment target of iOS 7. That means I cannot write software that works full screen on iPhone X and also still works on my kids' old iPad. It's not just hard to do, it's flat out impossible.

Re:And then there's this

[drinkypoo]

Well, no. Apple offered 512K logic board upgrades to purchasers of the original 128K Macs.

I'm talking about CPU upgrades, system expansion, that kind of thing. It didn't even have SCSI until the Plus, and it didn't have an expansion slot until the SE, which had a processor direct slot. (I just sold one with a Radius Accelerator SE 16, it's still in my room here behind me until the seller gets into town and I go drop it off.) So there was no user-accessible expansion until the third model, and no means of upgrading to a faster CPU until the fourth. PCs had standard motherboards so you could upgrade that underneath all of your peripherals and an industry-standard expansion bus, hell even the Amiga had an accelerator connector (basically the same as PDS) and a fancy-pants parallel port that could be used to get over 200kbps of throughput to a peripheral device. And this lack of initial expandability was a conscious decision.

Re:And then there's this

[Ol Olsoc]

Particularly because the idea that no one but Apple's authorized money generators can repair an iPhone is patently absurd.

So you have the equipment to repair an iPhone? Or a Samsung for that matter? They are remarkably similar inside. I can repair them, and I am surprised at just how many Slashdotters have the skills, the steady hands and the equipment to repair these things.

Re: And then there's this

[Anonymous Coward]

You CAN have more than one version of Xcode installed at the same time. (There's even an option in the preferences to choose which version to use for command line tools)

I can't recall for certain if you need an older version of macOS to go along with a version of Xcode that old.

Re:And then there's this

[Ol Olsoc]

This is, of course, the history of the Macintosh. From the very start, Jobs didn't want anyone opening the case, and he didn't even want it to have any expansion beyond serial ports. He explicitly wanted the user to have to buy a new computer if they wanted to upgrade, producing revenue for Apple.

This is literally only business as usual for Apple, ever since the Mac.

For what it is worth, I've been opening and upgrading Macs since Toaster days. Even iMacs.

Re:And then there's this

[jrmcferren]

In theory it MAY be possible depending on what is causing the limitation. I know a lot of old (and to me iconic) models were able to upgrade one last time due to a software faking the existence of a "required" component. It was a way to allow the old Clamshell iBooks (and likely other models) to upgrade from 10.3 to 10.4. I'm sure Apple is a bit smarter than that now.

Re: And then there's this

[Ol Olsoc]

This is 2017. How many years of support do you expect from Apple and what is this expectation based on when taking into account policies of all other hardware manufacturers?

It's Apple. They could hand out free blowjobs from Sophia Vergara with each Mac sold, and Slashdotters would bitch about it. What they don't understand is that this sort of thing will affect whatever they are using.

Re: And then there's this

[freeze128]

...until there is a significant kernel upgrade, and the hardware drivers are no longer supported by the new version.

Re: And then there's this

[Anonymous Coward]

There's a difference between support and letting us work on our own stuff.

My house is over 50 years old, and I can change an outlet any time I want without calling the guy who built it. I can buy a 100 year old car, and tear it right down to the frame and replace every single component. In fact, a lot of people make hobbies or businesses off that fact.

Then there's apple. "Oh, you couldn't possibly figure out the complexity of replacing a small circuit board on a ribbon cable!

Except that it's fully possible for plenty of people, but for Apple's unethical attempts to make the unit unrepairable artificially.

Re: And then there's this

[lucm]

It's Apple. They could hand out free blowjobs from Sophia Vergara with each Mac sold, and Slashdotters would bitch about it.

Or Apple could force customers to get sodomized by a pony when they buy a Mac, and fanbois would still wait in line at the Apple Store, and they would defend Apple on Slashdot, talking about how this is helping ponies

Re:And then there's this

[msauve]

" no user-accessible expansion until the third model, and no means of upgrading to a faster CPU until the fourth.."

PCs didn't have upgradable processors, either. Every Mac came with networking support, Apple came out with external floppy and hard disks. And, although the official method of expansion was external, the lack of slots didn't stop third party expansion. I had a 128K Mac, upgraded to 512K, then added an internal 10 MB hard drive (Hyperdrive).

"...fancy-pants parallel port that could be used to get over 200kbps of throughput..."

LocalTalk ran at 230 kbps.

Re:And then there's this

[Anonymous Coward]

After they wanted to charge me £120 to "fix" the Home button on my iPhone 4 I made the decision never to give Apple another penny. How they got away with such a blatant, purposeful design flaw is beyond me (the antenna problems were convenient for diverting attention to something they had a pathetic excuse for). You would think it would only be a matter of time before people got sick of being fucked over and ripped off all the time, unfortunately it seems that their customers' vanity comes before any self respect.

Captcha : contempt

Re: And then there's this

[Anonymous Coward]

Wow. Going back to the early 80s in your gripes?

Yes, PCs had expansion slots. They were needed for the video card, sound, hard disk (if you could even afford that). The original macs didn't, as they had integrated video, sound, etc.

The original mac and 512k ones were first of their kind. There wasn't any assurance of they would succeed at all. So to say macs didn't "even" have scsi until the plus, that's true but that such a short blip.

The plus had scsi and expandable memory.

The SE had a PDS slot. That was the only thing that would work in its form factor. But you forget the II, released at the same time, with 6 Nubus slots.

Re: And then there's this

[michelcolman]

Yes, but you have to choose one to submit to the app store.

Re: And then there's this

[Anonymous Coward]

OMG ponies!!!1

Re: And then there's this

[Anonymous Coward]

You must be new to open source.

Re: And then there's this

[Anonymous Coward]

Uhhh... Why is anyone surprised?

Software only features like their voice assistant were consciously excluded from earlier generation updates. The 99 cent app it was based on worked all the way to the original i device because all the heavy lifting was server based anyway.

Re: And then there's this

[sound vision]

The iMac I had had a small panel in the back for the end-user to perform upgrades. You could put exactly two things in it: a stick of RAM and an AirPort card (proprietary apple wireless network, for those too young to remember). I'm not sure if they went out of their way to lock you out of the rest of the hardware, like they do nowadays. But it was clear the end-user was never intended to mess with the hardware besides the slots in the expansion panel.

As a side-note, the disk in that iMac ended up having a head crash due to totally inadequate cooling. They thought it was ok to cram a bunch of hot hardware and a CRT into a tiny bubble with no case fans. They have a long history of overheating computers for aesthetic reasons, starting with the Apple 3 and continuing through to a couple years ago with the MacBook Air. Their design philosophy hasn't changed, so I expect this issue to keep popping up in the Apple product line perpetually.

They were doing the dongle thing back then as well. I had to buy a separate floppy drive, which in 1998 was essential. 2 years down the road it quit receiving OS updates... They called the omission of a removable media drive forward-thinking, yet the computer was planned into obsolescence before next-gen USB media were even a mature technology.

Re: And then there's this

[Anonymous Coward]

Uhh what?

Why is it difficult to back port stuff? They have billions of dollars. Hiring a whole engineering team to to extend support -especially considering most underlying CPUs don't really change all that much, would be easy

Windows does this. You only start running into trouble with newer OSes when the hardware is close to 15 years old due to newer induction sets. Then again, M$ doesn't make nearly the same amount as ApL...

Re:And then there's this

[ctilsie242]

There are drivers for older Macs to allow the latest macOS to install on them. You have to turn off SIP and keep it off, since the kexts used are definitely not signed... but if you want that black MacBook from 2008 to run High Sierra, it is doable.

Re: And then there's this

[Anonymous Coward]

Oh, come on, don't be absurd. Windows 10 won't even fit on 16GB of disk space and good luck getting ANY reasonable performance out of a 1GHz processor or 2 Gb RAM. You'll be in swap hell.

--------
Processor: 1 gigahertz (GHz) or faster processor or SoC
  RAM: 1 gigabyte (GB) for 32-bit or 2 GB for 64-bit
  Hard disk space: 16 GB for 32-bit OS 20 GB for 64-bit OS
  Graphics card: DirectX 9 or later with WDDM 1.0 driver
  Display: 800x600

Re:And then there's this

[Anonymous Coward]

What even the glue-fest that the latest Mac are? I think not fanboiiiiiii!

Re: And then there's this

[Anonymous Coward]

Not much software relies on the latest kernel, you don't have to upgrade it. The Linux kernel is just a kernel after all, it's not the same as a Mac OS update. You can upgrade all the other software without issue. Nice try though, but I call FUD.

Re: And then there's this

[omnichad]

With Apple, they block you. With Windows, you at least get to make that choice for yourself. Of course those specs are absurdly low, but Apple won't let you update really powerful hardware.

Re:And then there's this

[mfnickster]

"He explicitly wanted the user to have to buy a new computer if they wanted to upgrade"

Well, no. Apple offered 512K logic board upgrades to purchasers of the original 128K Macs.

Against Steve's wishes, though.

Steve Jobs objected, because he didn't like the idea of customers mucking with the innards of their computer. He would also rather have them buy a new 512K Mac instead of them buying more RAM from a third-party. But this time Burrell prevailed, because the change was so minimal. He just left it in there and no one bothered to mention it to Steve, much to the eventual benefit of customers, who didn't have to buy a whole new Mac to expand their memory.

Steve had left by the time the Mac II came out, and it was Gassee's call to allow expansion slots.

I will say the Power Mac 7500 I bought in 1995 was supremely expandable, and easy to open the case and work inside it. I upgraded the RAM, hard drive, CPU (to a G3) and optical drive. I got a lot of miles out of that Mac!

Re: And then there's this

[spire3661]

Yes it will. I have 16 gb 8" winbook running win 10. I use it as a mobile file handler for sd/usb drives.

Re: And then there's this

[Anonymous Coward]

Then you write new ones or fix the old ones

Re: And then there's this

[Anonymous Coward]

> Then you write new ones or fix the old ones

"Just write new drivers." Sure.

I can see not much has changed in the Linux world since I first tried it 20 years ago.

Re:And then there's this

[Anonymous Coward]

Install Linux

With that said, some Linux distro have dropped support for 32-bit CPUs.

There should be a ten year support rule for most electronics though. It’s just wasteful otherwise.

Re:And then there's this

[50000BTU_barbecue]

You could pop a V20 in the socket....

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/...

Re:And then there's this

[rabbitdog]

Well, technically, the "next version" is MacOS High Sierra, being released on Monday, and Apple did not have to limit the hardware that can run it. https://arstechnica.com/gadget...

2009 Mac Pro supported OS X 10.6 Snow Leopard http://www.everymac.com/system...

Re: And then there's this

[Ol Olsoc]

It's Apple. They could hand out free blowjobs from Sophia Vergara with each Mac sold, and Slashdotters would bitch about it.

Or Apple could force customers to get sodomized by a pony when they buy a Mac, and fanbois would still wait in line at the Apple Store, and they would defend Apple on Slashdot, talking about how this is helping ponies

Having Apple devices since there have been Apple devices, I'd be fine with Lady Sophia's services, but your rabid hatred of Apple and your odd example might be looked at by some as both hatred and projection, there Bronie

Just sayin'. I have Apple, Windows, Linux, iPhone and Android devices at present. Youre hatred is misplaced and has a strange basis, each is just another device.

But Hey! Ponies!

Re: And then there's this

[Ol Olsoc]

OMG ponies!!!1

And Bronies too! https://singsintraffic.files.w...

Re: And then there's this

[Anonymous Coward]

Naw Naw It's True!

The bastards dropped support for my 386 box! I've had that since the 0.* kernel days.

Re:And then there's this

[Anonymous Coward]

They also do stupid shit like soldering the ram modules in place. Fuck that company.

Re: And then there's this

[dunkelfalke]

It is not that difficult. SMD soldering requires much steadier hands and yet people do it, even at home.

Re: And then there's this

[Type44Q]

Installed a lot of distros, have you...

Re:And then there's this

[Anonymous Coward]

They've been buggering the installers for years. I have several Macs, including a G5 which I fitted with the newest Power-based OS (10.5?) You had to unpack the installer images from the DVD, get into an installer config file (xml?) and change a few things so that the installer saw your machine as OK for installation. Each Mac has a machine "Model Identifier", "Boot ROM", and "SMC Version". It's possible to change them in firmware (not easy) or again, just unpack the installer, edit the config files, repack the installer, and you should be good to go.

Re: And then there's this

[Type44Q]

So you have the equipment to repair an iPhone?

Aw fuck; how shall we ever afford a $2 spudger??

Re:And then there's this

[msauve]

Problem is, it didn't work that way. The motherboard was made to take either 64K or 256K DRAM - that's what Burrell put in. But the RAM was soldered in, so unless someone had the equipment and skill to desolder 16 DIP chips, AND build a small circuit to add a needed decoder, they didn't upgrade that way. Sure, a few hobbyists did, but the vast majority bought motherboard upgrades from Apple, which were installed by a dealer.

Oh, and Apple also offered 512Ke upgrades, which included a double-sided 800K drive.

And Steve was around when they sold those upgrades. An upgrade to the Mac Plus, which had expandable memory and SCSI, and which was developed while Jobs was around (it was released shortly after he left) was also offered.

Re: And then there's this

[Ol Olsoc]

The iMac I had had a small panel in the back for the end-user to perform upgrades. You could put exactly two things in it: a stick of RAM and an AirPort card (proprietary apple wireless network, for those too young to remember). I'm not sure if they went out of their way to lock you out of the rest of the hardware, like they do nowadays. But it was clear the end-user was never intended to mess with the hardware besides the slots in the expansion panel.

You do know that the access to the innards is accomplished by using suction cups to pull the screen cover, don't you? Seriously not difficult As a side-note, the disk in that iMac ended up having a head crash due to totally inadequate cooling. They thought it was ok to cram a bunch of hot hardware and a CRT into a tiny bubble with no case fans. They have a long history of overheating computers for aesthetic reasons, starting with the Apple 3 and continuing through to a couple years ago with the MacBook Air. Their design philosophy hasn't changed, so I expect this issue to keep popping up in the Apple product line perpetually. Not only do they not have case fans, the case fans that they don't have sometimes run at full speed, and need to have a memory reset to return the fans they don't hace to not return to normal not speed that the fans they don't have run right not right. Or something something.

Seriously, where did you get your Mac wisdom, because you're talking shit. My iMac's fan is sitting there idling right now. Or do you think maybe they put a speaker in it to make a sound like a fan. And if you are having temp issues, clean it once in a while.

Just as a reference, Here's a 2011 27 inch iMac all opened up: http://tr2.cbsistatic.com/hub/... Count the fans. By the way, you'll notice that after popping the screen off, you have access to some rather normal looking stuff, attached in a way most similar to the way that everyone else does.

And of course, no Windows machine has ever had a problem with heat anyhow, amirite?

They were doing the dongle thing back then as well. I had to buy a separate floppy drive, which in 1998 was essential. 2 years down the road it quit receiving OS updates... They called the omission of a removable media drive forward-thinking, yet the computer was planned into obsolescence before next-gen USB media were even a mature technology.

Oh my fscking gawd - 1998?

I'll bet you think that Apple still only has the one button mouse too.

Okay, since you've set the playing field up, let's talk about what a damn piece of shit Windows 1 is, and how time is frozen. Seriously weak arguments there, muchacho. In the meantime Windows 3.1 is a great upgrade - I reccomend it wholeheartedly.

Re:And then there's this

[voss]

You can run that monster on Linux for the next 15 years probably.

Re:And then there's this

[Anonymous Coward]

True, but the point is that even while Steve was still at Apple, he didn't want the Mac to be upgradeable at all. And no Mac had expansion slots while he was still there.

Want more RAM? buy a new Mac.
Want SCSI? buy a new Mac.
Want slots? buy a new Mac.
Want color? buy a new Mac.

Re:And then there's this

[thadtheman]

That is absolute bullshit.\

The original Macs were supposed to come in two packages 128K and 512K, and everyone knew that 128K was way too little. But Ram shortages made the 512K version very rare. Apple promised this by telling people that wehn the RAM became available they would offer them an upgrade option.

When the upgrade option became available though it was highly overpriced. Users were forced. into one of three options. Go without, pay a ton or go with third party upgrades that voided the warrantie.

Adding a hard drive would also void the warantie because "why would you want to add a hard drive". This attitude actuallly drove away a lot of Apple fans from Apple forever, and led to the disenchantment which drove Jobs away from Apple.

Re: And then there's this

[Anonymous Coward]

Yeah, good luck installing win10 with that much hard drive space. You will not be able to effectively run anything but a cmd prompt with that few overall resources.

You will have to strip the hell out of that system to get updates applied to it at all. I don't think there's any way you can.

My most recent win10 install took over 55gb of space after updates, with nothing else on the system.

Re: And then there's this

[Anonymous Coward]

Pro tip: every single iMac model has inferior HDD cooling capacity, even with a system that has always been kept dust free. Hell, the last time I replaced the disk in my work iMac, I used one of the fan control apps to bump the idle speed up, and my disk died again within 2 years.

Macs have inferior cooling. Period.

Except the old G5 and Pro towers. Those were the bomb.

Re: And then there's this

[lucm]

your rabid hatred of Apple

I don't hate them (or their customers), I'm just trying to offer a bit of counterbalance to the endless fanboyism on Slashdot. Apple stories haven't been "news for nerds" for a long time.

Re:And then there's this

[sjames]

PCs had a socket for an 8087 (math co-processor) and the CPU was socketed as well. The NEC V-20 was pin compatible with the 8088.

Re:And then there's this

[epine]

Adding a hard drive would also void the warranty because "why would you want to add a hard drive". This attitude actually drove away a lot of Apple fans from Apple forever, and led to the disenchantment which drove Jobs away from Apple.

I was one of those people with enough dosh in my foolish youth to spring for the original fat Mac (something just shy of CDN $4000 with printer and external floppy as I dimly recall), which within less than two years became a decorative boat anchor after I priced an internal hard drive upgrade at CDN $1500, which instead I spent, as I now recall it, on an entire crappy 80286 clone, which was ugly and clunky, but far more useful to me as a software developer.

What first drove me absolutely ape-shit about my double-floppy fat Mac was that whenever it needed something from an unmounted floppy, it would by (some inscrutable logic) pop one of the two mounted floppies—almost always the disk it would seconds later request that I reinsert.

I knew my workflow, the machine didn't, yet it figured it should choose which disk to auto-eject, and I shouldn't even have my own button. I never had a development workflow that required less than three floppies.

Soon I had installed permanent paperclips in both floppies so I could override this outrageously unhelpful behaviour, whose mother was a sentient elevator servicing a hamster high rise, and whose father was a talking toaster who smelled of elderberries.

It drove me APE FUCKING SHIT.

And you're quite right. I've never gone back to the Apple fold.

Re: And then there's this

[Ol Olsoc]

It is not that difficult. SMD soldering requires much steadier hands and yet people do it, even at home.

That's true. I have assembled many SMT devices. I do prefer the slightly larger chip caps and resistors. The smaller ones are just too easy to lose, even with solder paste. But I hear many Hams lament that it isn't possible to do homebrewing any more. And that is plain wrong.

Re: And then there's this

[Anonymous Coward]

LOL!!!

It's obvious that @freeze128 has no clue... except not to those who use proprietary OSs.

Re: And then there's this

[Anonymous Coward]

It's Apple. They could hand out free blowjobs from Sophia Vergara with each Mac sold, and Slashdotters would bitch about it.

That's because Slashdotters don't know what a blowjob is supposed to be.

Re: And then there's this

[Anonymous Coward]

Let me guess: you tried an early version of Red Hat. That's the usual story.

Re: And then there's this

[Anonymous Coward]

> Let me guess: you tried an early version of Red Hat. That's the usual story.

Nope. And no need to keep guessing, you'll never get it. :)

Besides, it's not the distro at issue here - it's the community. For the most part people were happily willing to answer questions if you did your homework first (to avoid the dreaded 'RTFM!' response) but the general attitude was "fix it yourself" and that seems to be mostly unchanged - it just used to apply to a broader set of issues back then.

Re: And then there's this

[Predius]

So, I have at work a few first generation Intel Atom systems, a couple laptops with 2GB RAM, and a couple desktops with 4GB or 8GB. An 80GB HD is as small as I'll go as that has enough room for a Win 10 Pro install plus space for a couple insider build upgrade cycles before I have to do a disk cleanup run.

They're not rockets by any stretch of the imagination, and the non Nvidia ION chipset based ones have almost zero graphics accel (but at least they're not showing grey squares any more when not rolling back to the generic SVGA driver...) but they are useable as light duty web browsers, etc. We primarily use them to see what potential gotchas are coming in the latest insider builds.

Re: And then there's this

[Predius]

Win 10 Pro x64 Insider edition with one update cycle and no disk cleanup after is only 30gb (Just did this yesterday). If you're sitting at 55gb used you've got something else eating space.

Re:And then there's this

[antdude]

Did you get a malware from it though? :P

Re: And then there's this

[Anonymous Coward]

I have two tablets that run Win10 on the internal SD card. The OS only takes up 12 GB or so when done. You need a thumb drive to do OS upgrades though.

Re: And then there's this

[Anonymous Coward]

There was no determinable hatred in the post by lucm. The GP post introduced offensive, unrelated, sexual text, and the parent simply continued on that metaphor. Your choice to see this as hatred is bizarre, and refers more to your own mindset than lucm's. Your own perjorative, "Bronie", is quite bizarre, misspelt, and entirely orthogonal to the conversation.

Ol, quit spending so much time on /. and get back to work.

Re: And then there's this

[k2r]

> AirPort card (proprietary apple wireless network, for those too young to remember).

I stopped reading here, because the first Airport Card did 802.1b. There was no proprietary wireless standard by apple, they just made Notebooks with buildin antennae and a socket for a PCMCIA card to connect to them before anybody else.
They branded their antenna-less version of the Orinoco Gold (?) Airport.

Re:And then there's this

[infolation]

Upgrade the firmware from 4,1 to 5,1 -- it's unsupported by Apple, but it convinces the 2009 mac pro that it's a 2010 mac pro, and can accept High Sierra.

http://appleinsider.com/articl...
https://arstechnica.com/gadget...
how-to video
https://www.youtube.com/watch?...

Hope this helps.

Re:And then there's this

[Carewolf]

I have a 2009 Mac Pro. It's a 12/24 core, 3 GHz-ish, 64 GB machine, lots of monitors. It's really pretty quick and there's certainly nothing wrong with it.

Apple, however, has made the next version of the OS unavailable to it, which in turn will make it slowly become incompatible with new software, etc.

Yeah, and it is a completely fake limitation too. You can completely work around it by updating the bios, then the newest macOS versions will install just fine. Well it least for my 2009 Mac Pro at work it was easy and very safe bet as 2010 Mac Pros has been made with the exact same hardware inside, that were still supported.

Re: And then there's this

[Ol Olsoc]

Pro tip: every single iMac model has inferior HDD cooling capacity, even with a system that has always been kept dust free. Hell, the last time I replaced the disk in my work iMac, I used one of the fan control apps to bump the idle speed up, and my disk died again within 2 years.

Macs have inferior cooling. Period.

Except the old G5 and Pro towers. Those were the bomb.

My two G5 Pro's in my office and the Xserver required a change in our handling system because the room turned into an oven, and it sounded like a jet engine when I was rendering, The heat sinks on the Pro's processors were nearly the size of a Mac Mini.

And yet, my i5 imac runs warm but continuously with no problem. And the new iMacs run ridiculously cool. I'd get one, but I'm waiting for the specs to get better to make it worth it.

I've visited a lot more Windows machines with temperature problems than Macs. Thanks for the Protip.

Re: And then there's this

[Ol Olsoc]

your rabid hatred of Apple

I don't hate them (or their customers), I'm just trying to offer a bit of counterbalance to the endless fanboyism on Slashdot. Apple stories haven't been "news for nerds" for a long time.

So you do the same for Windows users? Or do they speak only sooth, and the only "fanboys" are Apple users? Perhaps there is a role for you, as a beacon of shining light, truth, and the (enter your country here) way, skewering the fucked up Apple users, with a rapier wit, leaving them mentally devastated, and finally seeing ther error of their ways. They repent, but just like apostasy, there are some sins that gawd simply will not forgive, such as owning and likeing an Apple product.

That's why he gave Steve Jobs Pancreatic cancer you know.

But all black humor aside, I'm typing this on my Mac, while to my right is an HP Envy laptop, the Mac has Windows 7 and bootcamp as well, and to my left is a core2duo 27 inch iMac running Ubuntu Mate. It's too old for the latest updates, but was gentlely used by a friend, and she's moved to all laptop, so here it ispretty as you please. I use all of them every day. And yes, it's true that I prefer Unix and variants. But personal preferences should't classify one as a "fanboy"

Seems like "fanboys" aren't quite what they used to be. I never classified myself as one, inless debunking the bullshit that is spewed in here makes a person a "fanboy."

Re:And then there's this

[rtb61]

Well, if that is Apple's market that is Apple's market. The real way the law needs to be updated is that customers need to be made fully aware at point of purchase, the abnormal limitation upon device repair and the costs involved, failure to make the customer demonstrably aware of those limitation else, the customer should be entitled to a refund at any time after purchase.

Re: And then there's this

[sound vision]

There's no screen cover because the screen is the big end of a glass cathode-ray tube. And there definitely were not case fans. You seem to not have comprehended my argument, which was about consistently poor design choices, for which I provided three models spanning 30 years as examples.

What Microsoft does isn't relevant to any of that, but they have their own long-running problems as well, some of them similar to Apple's.

Re: And then there's this

[Ol Olsoc]

There was no determinable hatred in the post by lucm.

"Or Apple could force customers to get sodomized by a pony when they buy a Mac."

As he wrote.

I don't know about you, but I wouldn't invite any Samsung users to be sodomized by a pony. That's not considered a friendly act in very many places, although I've heard about some strange and disturbing goings on in Tijuana, Mexico.

Just relax, muchacho, This is the weekend on Slashdot, and conversations go where they go. The easily offended are advised to read at +5

Re: And then there's this

[Ol Olsoc]

It's Apple. They could hand out free blowjobs from Sophia Vergara with each Mac sold, and Slashdotters would bitch about it.

That's because Slashdotters don't know what a blowjob is supposed to be.

Some dude above found the idea offensive!

Re: And then there's this

[Anonymous Coward]

NetBSD will still run on a Mac SE/30.

Re: And then there's this

[Anonymous Coward]

Fuck face, why are you linking to a 2011 iMac when he's talking about the POS neon ones from the late 90's? You even fucking fail quoted the CRT bit. Chill the fuck out or your reading comprehension sucks.

Full disclosure, I was stuck with one of those crashing bastards due to corrupt school board buying obsolete shit for millions above PC prices and hate the iMac fuckers.

Are you really the FakeTimCook guy? Cause you have the same butthurt attitude.

Re: And then there's this

[Anonymous Coward]

You can't please all the people all the time!

Re: And then there's this

[Anonymous Coward]

Because if the manufacturer isn't around to provide driver updates and support, why should the OS, who didn't sell the hardware and make money spend effort on support?

Re: And then there's this

[Anonymous Coward]

Is this shit modular with cables and sockets?

Because if the minimum requirements are microscope, hot air, soldering station and skills to work on 0201 parts, they kinda have a point.

TV'S are pretty modular (my last two were, anyways), though. The repair guy could easily stock the PSU and main board for most repairs not requiring a screen replacement. You could probably instruct a family member over the phone it was so easy.

A long time ago, an ipod nano fell and broke the screen. Apple refused to repair it, saying it was dropped damage. So I tried the fix and with hands bigger than a 10 year old, a plastic latch broke and became permanently bricked. This was years before having the SMT tools to repair the latch.

If Apple wants to control the repairs, they need a system where their robot does the labour for near free and parts with only modest markup.

Re: And then there's this

[Anonymous Coward]

He might be referring to many distros no longer supporting 32-bit only CPUs. I tried getting some running using the non pae versions a couple of years ago and gave up after a few unsuccessful attempts due to bugs. It just meant throwing out still working hardware, very low performance hardware, though.

I like lxle for older hardware, but every laptop or PC runs into some sort of graphics issue and I end up putting on xubuntu.

Re: And then there's this

[Anonymous Coward]

depending on what you are doing those specs can actually be more than fine for a machine. I have an Atom based machine using less than 16GB of disk (it has 32 in it though) and only 1gb ram. it is more than fast enough for what it needs to do. it is really apps that need more space, memory or CPU, the OS can live just fine and perform decently even at the minimum specs.

Re: And then there's this

[koomba]

Are you drunk or just wilfully stupid? The fact that he said hot components and a **CRT** should clue you into the fact that he was talking about the older ones. You know, the ones with....CRT screens? So your snarky comment and link to a 2011 IMac has fuck all to do with what he was talking about.

But don't let basic reading comprehension and facts slow down your automatic, conditioned Apple defender rant.

Re: And then there's this

[HermMunster]

Atypical.

That attitude prevailed in every market.

Today all free support is pretty much done by the communities regardless of the product. The attitude of holding you responsible for doing your work yourselves is not new. There has been a small vocal minority that alienated people with rtfm. Certainly that was the case.

Open source today is massively massive with a hundred million installs of linux worldwide. Support is far better and in fact has been lauded that the community support is top notch.

On the other side of things it is getting harder and harder to get solid free support from the windows and osx communities. The reason is that everyone is willing to help but few actually have the requisite knowledge to actually help and lead you down the rabbit hole wasting your time--just to read the replies.

Re: And then there's this

[Ol Olsoc]

Are you drunk or just wilfully stupid? The fact that he said hot components and a **CRT** should clue you into the fact that he was talking about the older ones. You know, the ones with....CRT screens? So your snarky comment and link to a 2011 IMac has fuck all to do with what he was talking about.

His ancient iMac has "fuck all" to do with modern ones. And odd that you seem to question my reading abilities and comprehension when I referred specifically to the date he gave me of 1998. Which prompted my comment of wanting to discuss Windows 1 because I was surprised that an irrelevant ancient iMac - which is still pretty easy to get into BTW - has anything to do with the popular meme that you can't work on them.

Re: And then there's this

[Anonymous Coward]

The reason is that everyone is willing to help but few actually have the requisite knowledge to actually help

Indeed, and this is why "just write your own drivers" is not and never will be a good answer.

At best, it's a recipe for shitty drivers.

Re: And then there's this

[Anonymous Coward]

Unfortunately there is only one Sofia, so the blowjobs have to be given sequentially and not in parallel.

There's an opportunity cost for pleasing one customer while another goes unserviced....

Re: And then there's this

[lucm]

Seems like "fanboys" aren't quite what they used to be. I never classified myself as one

I never said you were one. I merely provided the other end of the spectrum to your blowjob analogy because I don't believe Apple products are at a disadvantage on Slashdot, quite the contrary.

For the record, I used to own Apple devices, just like I used to own Blackberry devices and now own Samsung devices - I go with what is the most innovative and convenient at any given time. I'm not pro or anti anything in the absolute; i even had a nice LG Windows Phone for a while and it was great.

So I've been around the block enough to notice when a brand is becoming all foam and no beer, and that's the case with Apple. Doesn't mean that I see every person who buys Apple products as a fanboi.

Re: And then there's this

[Anonymous Coward]

Just to clarify, the Airport Card form factor was proprietary. The wireless standard was, well, standard 802.11b.
The chipset was also one of the common vendors at the time (e.g. broadcom, Intersil, or some such.)

Re: And then there's this

[Anonymous Coward]

That seems incomplete. One big change MS made with 8.0 (8.1?) was the requirement for SSE2 (or rather, a generation of processor that supported SSE2 or newer). No way defending Apple's shenanigans, but just pointing it out before some fool tries to install Win10 on his PentiumIII.

Re:And then there's this

[The123king]

It's worth remembering how small a quantity of RAM 128k really is. That's the same amount of RAM as 2 Commodore 64's, 3 ZX Spectrums, or 1/4 of an Atari 520ST. Most competing systems with comparable RAM were text based with little or no GUI available. Most other machines with a GUI (Atari ST, Amiga) shipped with a minimum of 512k usually

Re:And then there's this

[Anonymous Coward]

Most other machines with a GUI (Atari ST, Amiga) shipped with a minimum of 512k usually

True, but they also shipped a year after the 128k Mac, when the 512k Mac had already been available for several months.

Re:And then there's this

[Anonymous Coward]

It's worth remembering how small a quantity of RAM 128k really is. That's the same amount of RAM as 2 Commodore 64's, 3 ZX Spectrums, or 1/4 of an Atari 520ST. Most competing systems with comparable RAM were text based with little or no GUI available. Most other machines with a GUI (Atari ST, Amiga) shipped with a minimum of 512k usually

Yeah, and that was barely 2 years later, after the price of RAM had dropped considerably.

Re:And then there's this

[david_thornley]

Our first Mac was an SE, and we upgraded from 1M of RAM to 4M using a kit we bought. It wasn't difficult at all, and there was no solder involved anywhere in the process.

Re:And then there's this

[david_thornley]

It was eight times the RAM on my first computer.

Re: And then there's this

[david_thornley]

They have a long history of overheating computers for aesthetic reasons, starting with the Apple 3

There were any aesthetic considerations for the Apple 3? Coulda fooled me.

Re: And then there's this

[david_thornley]

In my observation, Apple fanboyism is less than Apple anti-fanboyism on /.. There are lots of people who go to Apple stories just to say that Apple sucks for some reason that is likely neither accurate nor relevant. I'm not sure why they can't just be happy not having Apple products and ignore the Apple stories.

Apple computers are an easy way to get a Unix system, and /. runs stories on new Samsung phones. I don't see them as inappropriate here.

Re: And then there's this

[david_thornley]

So you have one version that takes care of your wife's iPad, and one version to build software to sell. There's very little commercial opportunity in supporting systems that old. Anyone who still has one either finds that it suits their needs or doesn't have money to spend.

Re:And then there's this

[eclectro]

Actually they did have upgrade processors available most of the time in different forms. Here's an interesting history of Cyrix, a third party x86 cpu supplier.

Re:And then there's this

[msauve]

Cyrix wasn't in the market until 5 years after the time being discussed.

Re: It doesn't go far enough.

[Anonymous Coward]

How much does Apple pay for chaff Like this ?

Lovely

[Artem S. Tashkinov]

"Just when you thought we want to rob you once, we actually want to rob you twice."

-- Apple Care

Re:Lovely

[messymerry]

Not twice... We want to rob you repeatedly and often more than once a day. Apple is a central figure in the development of the "Digital Panopticon". The hordes of brain dead zombies that march to their siren song are going to put out the lights for the lot of us.

Re:Lovely

[Anonymous Coward]

We rob you loooong time

Re:Lovely

[lucm]

The hordes of brain dead zombies that march to their siren song

Owning an iPhone used to be a fashion statement. Now it's just a demonstration of poor judgment and a willingness to bend over and take it up the ass in order to gain acceptance from the Starbucks crowd.

Thankfully those idiots are easy to spot, it makes it easier to utilize them properly (ex: put them on United Way duty and keep them away from important servers or files).

You don't need to repair this.

[Ash-Fox]

So, what I understand from this is Apple are very complex products that can't be repaired. So, when they break, throw them away.

Re:You don't need to repair this.

[Ash-Fox]

**Apple have very

Re: You don't need to repair this.

[Kjella]

Well repair of small electronics has been dying for 30 years, Apple isn't helping but the overall trend is much broader. But as long as Apple is making manuals and parts for themselves I have no problem with them being forced to offer it to the public. They can reject warranty cases they believe are due to botched repairs, make the phones less repairable if they want but not monopolize after-market services. If it was up to me monopolizing after-market accessories would be outlawed too, if you want to hook something up to lightning port the interface should be documented and free. Proprietary formats, protocols and interfaces are a pox on society.

Re: You don't need to repair this.

[Ash-Fox]

I have no problem with them being forced to offer it to the public.

I think they shouldn't.

But, what I think should happen is a very clear advisory must be verbally provided to the consumer in a store (or otherwise displayed on the product page clearly) about the loss of the repairability of the device, that Apple do not allow authorized sellers to replace most components and that they set the repair terms, prices etc. The regulation done in such a way that they cannot spin it.

I don't like false advertising and I don't like uninformed purchases. However, I think people should be free to sell and purchase what they want, as long as all parties understand the situation accurately.

Proprietary formats, protocols and interfaces are a pox on society.

Another thing I think the customer should be informed about in simple detail as to what they lose out on in this situation.

Re: You don't need to repair this.

[lucm]

I have no problem with them being forced to offer it to the public.

I think they shouldn't.

I completely agree. I don't like Apple but I think people deserve the companies they vote for with their dollars. If this means that iPhone users must pay a fortune to get their idiotic device repaired by a member of the Apple crime family, so be it. Unlike what surfaces on Slashdot because of the biased editors and handful of fanbois, Apple has no longer any influence in the industry. Whatever the fuck they do to their customers has no global impact.

In the free world (aka Android), there's obviously a top dog but even them cannot control the market, because the runner-ups could easily topple them if the customers were unhappy with the products or services.

Open Source Software has same problem

[Anonymous Coward]

So called open source software has a similar problem. I must agree to what may be onerous agreements to fix defective code.
As long as I am repairing the software, I should have free and unfettered access to the source code and any tools necessary to build the software, without having to agree to any of the conditions of the normally needed license.
I believe so-called open source software should be mandatorily open without any license agreement whatsoever.
In other words, open and free according to the normally held meanings of these terms, without regard to any opinions of open source or free software lunatics, or their loyal drooling cabals of roaming viral license supporting troops.

Re:Open Source Software has same problem

[Ash-Fox]

I believe so-called open source software should be mandatorily open without any license agreement whatsoever.

That's Public Domain software. Just work on that instead of Open Source.

Re: Open Source Software has same problem

[Anonymous Coward]

Please, please, please don't submit to any open source code. I don't want that ecosystem catching whatever is wrong with you.

Re:Open Source Software has same problem

[Anonymous Coward]

In other words, you want to be able to steal from the commons and make money from it. That's not the point of libre software licenses, though the BSD licenses would allow that.

I license every line of my code under the GPL specifically to piss off the business types who think they're entitled to free code. It's a community, and you have to give a little to get a little. If you don't like it, take your ball and play elsewhere. Nobody will miss you.

Re:Open Source Software has same problem

[Anonymous Coward]

> So called open source software has a similar problem. I must agree to what may be onerous agreements to fix defective code.

Oh, boy. hat ind of troll. Show me *one* recognized (as in the OSI list, the FSF list or Debian's list, at your choice) "open souce license" where you've got to agree to *anything* to "fix" defective code.

> As long as I am repairing the software, I should have free and unfettered access to the source code and any tools necessary to build the software, without having to agree to any of the conditions of the normally needed license.

You have. At least with all agreed upon definitions of "open" or "free". Now some Microsoft bastard calling itself "open" doesn't count, probably.

> I believe so-called open source software should be mandatorily open without any license agreement whatsoever.

"Open" and "without any licensing agreement" are, alas, mutually exclusive, thank to existing copyright law. A copyrightable piece is "don't touch me" unless accompanied by a permission to do so. Complain to your lawmakers.

> In other words, open and free according to the normally held meanings of these terms, without regard to any opinions of open source or free software lunatics, or their loyal drooling cabals of roaming viral license supporting troops.

Ah, that's where the winds are coming from. An anti-GPL troll. Now look: the GPL doesn't put any restrictions on you when using, modifying and recompiling the software. It only says that *if you distribute* a binary from a modified source, you gotta give your users the source of your modifications too. Pretty reasonable, huh? Take it, or leave it. You still have BSD, MIT, Apache and a fuckton of others to have fun.

Re:Open Source Software has same problem

[Anonymous Coward]

This entire game needs to be changed, and will be changed. The buying public will (sometime soon) be able to buy reverse engineered products made by companies not bound by one country's laws. The country of origin might make laws making it illegal to buy/bring/use said product into that country, after some time of putting people in jail for those new laws the people will revolt against that government. If you didn't make your R&D money back from the original sale, you lost out. Same goes for copyright laws on books, songs etcetera. Apple, John Deere, any company can just go bust, there will be new companies who will take that knowledge and make a cheaper, just as good (or not) version of your product. Someone once made a wheel, that guy is s.o.l., wheels are ubiquitous now. Same goes for any product made today, and tomorrow. If you don't want it reproduced than you should not let it leave your lab.

Re:Open Source Software has same problem

[Ash-Fox]

The buying public will (sometime soon) be able to buy reverse engineered products made by companies not bound by one country's laws.

Nobody is stopping you move to China, move there if you really want to.

Bad service design is not the same as complexity

[An dochasac]

Look at the teardown videos of their competitors. For example the 2015 Blackberry Priv, has a curved screen with display to the edge, wireless Qi charging, magnetometer, gyro, gps, barometer, QWERTY slide-out keyboard.., The teardown to replace the battery takes about 1 minute. Pulling out the main board keyboard, and everything until you get to the screen, another 5. But then the tech mentions that it is also possible to replace the curved screen from the front in about 5 minutes. And compared to cars, appliances, commercial technology, home entertainment systems, sewing machings, my 1999 Pismo... the Priv isn't easily repairable.

Apple simply chooses planned obsolescence over serviceability. And so I've chosen not to buy into their environmentally wasteful products.

Re:It doesn't go far enough.

[mccalli]

Why? No-one's forcing anyone to buy an iPhone. Buy an Android phone instead if that's what you'd like.

Apple wants their users on a short leash.

[Anonymous Coward]

So if you are into BDSM and enjoy the sub part, go for it!

Bollocks

[Anonymous Coward]

I just spat out a mouthful of hot tea when I saw Apple say "Fairly priced".

I did note they did not say "competitively priced" , and thats the point, it is all about removing competition. Its about killing off older phones ASAP to ensure people will be forced to buy a new one. Lets face it, an old 3GS is suitable for a spare phone, one for the kids to use, or even the grandparents. New battery and away you go for a few more years, and that is what Apple does NOT want.

Re: Bollocks

[Anonymous Coward]

Freedom of pricing IS a Key Element of General freedom.

Check the personal Computers the commies built.

Re: Bollocks

[Entrope]

It takes Courage (tm) and money -- lots of money -- for Apple to create innovations like edge-to-edge screens, splash resistance, HDR displays in a mobile form factor, and OLED screens in phones. It's only fair for Apple to charge more than Android devices to deliver the kind of inventions that they do.

Re: Bollocks

[Anonymous Coward]

Wasnt samsung the first to introduce edge-to-edge screens? Doesnt Apple use Samsung displays in its phones?

i think you mean "innovations" (in quotes).

Re: Bollocks

[Entrope]

If it helps clarify, I should have also mentioned wireless charging among the expensive innovations that Apple charges so much for.

Re: Bollocks

[Anonymous Coward]

I don't give a fuck about any of those things.

Re: Bollocks

[An dochasac]

Fixed that for you:

It takes Courage (tm) and money -- lots of money -- for Apple to steal competitor-developed innovations like edge-to-edge screens (Samsung 2014), splash resistance (Sony 2006), HDR displays in a mobile form factor (Sony 2017), and OLED screens in phones (Nokia 2008)... not to mention wireless Qi charging (Nokia 2012)

It's only fair for Apple to charge more than Android devices to deliver the kind of inventions that they umm, borrow.

Either Entrope's tongue is firmly in cheek or...

Re: Bollocks

[Entrope]

Perhaps you misunderstood the antecedent of "they" at the end of my comment ;)

Re: Bollocks

[Anonymous Coward]

I don't give a fuck about any of those things that apple didn't invent anyway.

FTFY

Re: Bollocks

[Anonymous Coward]

> Check the personal Computers the commies built.

Other than being about 5-7 years behind the western-bloc's state of the art, there were actually quite a few of them. They were 5-7 years behind because that's how long it took eastern-bloc computer makers to get their production added to the next 5-year plan & source the components.

they couldn't clone a c64 or Amiga because Commodore was too vertically-integrated... a "commie 64" built by an eastern-bloc company would have cost a thousand dollars just to manufacture & been dependent on one or two limited sources of the necessary custom chips (and any chips purchased from Commodore/MOS Technologies would have required hard dollars & been prohibitively expensive).

In contrast, CP/M and ZX Spectrum clones were based on designs that COULD use custom ASICs to cut costs and enjoy economies of scale, but didn't absolutely DEPEND upon them the way a c64 or Amiga clone would have. If a factory in Russia ran short of chips, it could try to source them from a factory in East Germany or Poland, because they were somewhat of a semi-generic commodity.

In communist countries, successful factories were the ones big enough to achieve top-to-bottom vertical integration (so they could rapidly kludge designs with alternative components if something became unavailable), because local control & agility meant they were more likely to meet their production targets & be less likely to have FUTURE supply-chain problems.

Control over information-flow among computer owners was seen as a total non-issue by eastern-bloc governments. Modems were rare, getting additional phone lines to run a bbs would have been nearly impossible for an individual & risked its disconnection if you were caught running one that drew complaints (though some universities ran FIDOnet BBSes), and even in the US, a floppy disk cost so much money in the 1980s, you'd flip through your friends' disk boxes before they went home to make sure they didn't "accidentally" take one of yours. Plus, computers weren't cheap... if you were a kid in mid-80s eastern europe with a home computer, it meant your parents both had pretty good jobs & would have policed you far more effectively than any government could (because allowing you to get in trouble could cause them to lose their nice jobs & all the perks that went with it).

Re:It doesn't go far enough.

[Anonymous Coward]

GP is saying that in certain places you literally are being forced to buy an iPhone.

Re: It Just Hit The Fan

[Anonymous Coward]

Any hard source or more Apple chaff ?

Environmental officer in name only

[Anonymous Coward]

Her title is environmental officer.
The environmental load of starting with sand and making an I-gadget is amazing.
So recycling (fix and continue to use) is a no-brainer as far as environmental impact is concerned.

But selling new gadgets makes money.
So her job as environmental officer is to say silly things contrary to the title.

Like
Nobody but us can be trusted to properly repair an I-phone.
We want an accessable, competitive repair market.
Repair is not part of the path to durability.

Lisa's logic is lacking.
Better BS would help.

Well, it's the same with cars

[rainer_d]

Take it to some backyard-workshop for repairs? Warranty is gone.
That's why you take it to an authorized dealer/repair shop.

Why are people so hell-bent on saving every cent on repairs for a device that (now) can cost well above 1k USD?

That's like people buying a Ferrari or a Rolls Royce Wraith and then complaining about the cost of ownership because an oil-change or break-pad exchange or fixing a ding costs a fortune.

Weird.

Re:Well, it's the same with cars

[Anonymous Coward]

People with enough money for a Ferrari don't care how much the upkeep is...they have the money.

iPhone customers are not actually rich, they just want to act like it. So when they drop their polished turds they want to be able to fix it on the cheap. Chances are they didn't actually buy the phone and they are 'financing' it through their carrier because of how poor they actually are.

Re:Well, it's the same with cars

[Anonymous Coward]

Take it to some backyard-workshop for repairs? Warranty is gone.

you dotard, that's not true. wipe the cheetos dust off your keyboard and do some research.

Re:Well, it's the same with cars

[Anonymous Coward]

http://www.carcare.org/myth-only-car-dealers-can-service-vehicle-under-warranty/

It’s the law that independent repair shops can provide the services to maintain your new car warranty. Consumers are protected by the Magnuson-Moss Warranty Act, enforced by the Federal Trade Commission (FTC), which prohibits a manufacturer from voiding the vehicle warranty because service was done by a non-dealer.

That non-dealer can be YOU. In your backyard. Under a tree.

Re:Well, it's the same with cars

[yeupou]

The question is not why would someone want to fix things by himself or by a shop he trust but why do you want to prevent people from able to do so.

If you bought a Rolls Royces Wraith, for the price you paid, dont you at least deserve to get the specs and required information to fix it, if perchance you'd like to? Should not that be a basic rule of business and acquisition?

Re:Well, it's the same with cars

[Anonymous Coward]

The half shaft for my Porsche 944 (not a highly sought after or expensive car) costs over $400. It connects the transmission to one wheel with an axle and a CV joint on either end. The exact same part for a VW bus is $80.

The AC compressor costs $600. The label says Denso, and it is practically identical to $200 compressors found in other cars.

The shocks $400 each. The only difference between those and $100 shocks is a bracket welded to the side.

This has happened over and over with this car. In other words, the premium price is attached to the brand name. There is no magic dust in the parts that make them special. Same with Apple, Kelloggs, and many overpriced brands.

Re:Well, it's the same with cars

[Anonymous Coward]

Take it to some backyard-workshop for repairs? Warranty is gone.

Actually the manufacturer's warranty remains intact. Damage caused by repair was never covered by that warranty anyway, but it will be covered by the service warranty that you automatically get from the repairer. So now you have 2 warranties.

That's why you take it to an authorized dealer/repair shop.

The usual reason for taking a car to an authorised dealer is not knowing any better. Repairs are normally quite expensive, but authorised dealerships typically charge many times (think 10x-20x) the normal price, and often do an extremely shoddy job, resulting in you having to send the car back to the dealership over and over until you give up and take it to a private mechanic to sort out anyway. Private mechanics who aren't "authorised dealers" either do a good job or don't survive as a business.

Why are people so hell-bent on saving every cent on repairs for

Epic understatement

a device that (now) can cost well above 1k USD?

The initial price does not automatically justify artificially high repair costs. In fact, higher maintenance costs are often considered part of the price of getting an initially cheaper item.

Re:Well, it's the same with cars

[rainer_d]

Just need to buy a lot of specific tools - that are most likely not sold outside authorized dealers.

If you think it's bad with iPhones now, just wait a couple of years when it's going to be even worse with cars.

The reason the manufacturer wants to prevent you from even trying is because inevitably people who have no business working on the innards of an iPhone are going to try anyway, fail spectacularly - and then deliver the parts in a box to Apple, demanding a repair. On warranty.

That's not the way Apple want's to do business.

Re:Well, it's the same with cars

[Anonymous Coward]

... brake-pad exchange or fixing a ding costs ...

Let's use a car analogy: Have you taken your car in and the mechanic has said that you've driven it for 2 years, you have to buy another car? No: Because car manufacturers promise to make parts for 10 years. Your phone manufacturer doesn't and it's obvious why: That increases warehousing expense and cannibalizes latest-model sales. Allowing authorized Apple 'mechanics' isn't just more expensive than do-it-yourself repairs, it allows Apple to stop manufacturing legacy parts. Apple is justifying their luxury-tax philosophy so that idiots like you don't notice the real problem.

If Apple really wanted to avoid burdensome legislation they would manufacture legacy parts for their authorized 'mechanics'. But they've decided fighting the government over (generous) consumer entitlements is cheaper than repairing old phones.

Re:Well, it's the same with cars

[Anonymous Coward]

Bullshit. Users are never going to attempt a difficult or expensive home-repair on a warrantied device anyways. If it's under warranty they'll get the dealer to do it, plain and simple. And if they did, delivering a phone that's been disassembled, Apple will refuse the warranty due to user tampering. Apple is most definitely NOT afraid of users claiming warranty after doing home-repairs. They're afraid of losing revenue on after-warranty devices being repaired rather than new models being purchased.

Re:Well, it's the same with cars

[yeupou]

As said in another comment, the question is not really for still under warranty devices.

Reasons Apple might have are no concerns to the customers. Even worse with Cars? Cars company have already been fined for pulling this kind of crap (Renault Scenic with headlights bulbs that could not be changed without removing front shields of the vehicule, etc). It is surely going towards this. But that does not make it right.

Now you mention "specific" tools. You mean "non standard". I think we know enough the benefits of using standards and the reason some people avoid standards, it is common issue in computer related business. Not making it right too.

If I'm buying a Rolls Royce, I clearly think I paid enough to have the right to full ownership of the vehicule. Including specs and required info to fix it.

Years (decades) ago, if I remember well, there was in some RedHat install some comparative speech about how cars would be if they were proprietary software: no possibility to open the hood and check the engine bay. Are you suggesting that it should be that way? What about ... freedom?

Re:Well, it's the same with cars

[robbak]

I don't disagree with you about mark-up for the Porsche parts. If they are the same parts as used on the VW, they should be the same price. You shouldn't be able to get a half-shaft labeled only "Porsche", as all of them should be labelled 'Porsche, VW'.... and probable half a dozen different manufacturers.

But the bracket welded on the side of the shocks could easily make the price $300 dearer. The $100 part is $100 because it is made identical in huge numbers. Re-setup to make a few hundred with a different bracket, and the cost increases a lot.

Re:Well, it's the same with cars

[thegarbz]

Take it to some backyard-workshop for repairs? Warranty is gone.

If you had warranty you wouldn't take it to a backyard workshop, you'd just send it in and they'd send you a fixed device back.

Why are people so hell-bent on saving every cent on repairs for a device that (now) can cost well above 1k USD?

Because of the cost. Cracked screen on my mum's phone: Quote: $175 to replace. Actual cost: $11, and the ebay kit even included every tool I needed. But the repair takes time which is why companies will insist on replacing the entire display / touch assembly to fix a crack while a backyard shop will just replace the glass on the front of the screen for a very labour intensive job and still charge less than 1/3rd of the cost.

That's like people buying a Ferrari or a Rolls Royce Wraith and then complaining about the cost of ownership because an oil-change or break-pad exchange or fixing a ding costs a fortune.

No. The problem with Ferrari and Rolls Royce is that they are difficult to maintain, and the backyard repair shops will charge you just as much for that damn oil change as Ferrari would. What you are describing is complaining that instead of an oil change Ferrari insist on replacing the entire engine, and that happens just as much in the car world as anywhere else. (Toyota quoted my parents $350 to replace the entire instrument cluster because of a broken lamp, the local garage quoted $120 of which $105 was the several hours work to disassemble half the car to get at the lamp.)

Re:Well, it's the same with cars

[Anonymous Coward]

The half shaft for my Porsche 944 (not a highly sought after or expensive car) costs over $400.

https://www.rockauto.com/en/catalog/porsche,1986,944,2.5l+l4,1263574,drivetrain,cv+half+shaft+assembly,2288

Re:Well, it's the same with cars

[Anonymous Coward]

Take it to some backyard-workshop for repairs? Warranty is gone.
That's why you take it to an authorized dealer/repair shop.

Why are people so hell-bent on saving every cent on repairs for a device that (now) can cost well above 1k USD?

That's like people buying a Ferrari or a Rolls Royce Wraith and then complaining about the cost of ownership because an oil-change or break-pad exchange or fixing a ding costs a fortune.

Weird.

That is a bad analogy. If you can't afford to have the manufacturer of your car change the oil - and you can't change it yourself - you can have anyone you want change it. This includes the dealer and any backyard mechanic you want; it's your choice, and no matter your choice, it is not illegal.

Apple is trying to make 'anyone, other than the manufacturer, changing the oil' illegal. Note - this leaves out your 'cars dealer' as well because no one, outside of Apple technicians, will be 'authorized' to 'change your oil'

Re:Well, it's the same with cars

[Anonymous Coward]

Apple is trying to make 'anyone, other than the manufacturer, changing the oil' illegal. Note - this leaves out your 'cars dealer' as well because no one, outside of Apple technicians, will be 'authorized' to 'change your oil'

The saddest part of it all is that Apple Technicians don't even 'change oil' to begin with. At best - they 'top it off' and hope it works.

Re:Well, it's the same with cars

[Anonymous Coward]

So you personally wouldn't bring your phone to a 3rd party repair shop. Others would like to. What's your argument? You don't understand other people? Try to put yourself in their shoes more.

Re:Well, it's the same with cars

[Anonymous Coward]

Last time I checked, we didn't have 20% of the population driving Ferraris or Rolls Royce Wraiths.

Re:Well, it's the same with cars

[sjames]

and then deliver the parts in a box to Apple, demanding a repair. On warranty.

And Apple will just laugh, because no warranty is expected to cover such a thing.

Re:Well, it's the same with cars

[Kernel Kurtz]

That's like people buying a Ferrari or a Rolls Royce Wraith and then complaining about the cost of ownership because an oil-change or break-pad exchange or fixing a ding costs a fortune.

Except that anyone can own an iPhone and few people can own a Ferrari.

Re:Well, it's the same with cars

[Anonymous Coward]

That's actually not how that works, at least in the US. The only way a car manufacturer can void your warranty for services not provided by a dealer is if they can prove that said unauthorized work was the proximate cause for the failure, at which point they can void the warranty on those parts, but not the whole car.

Re:Well, it's the same with cars

[technothrasher]

People with enough money for a Ferrari don't care how much the upkeep is...they have the money.

There are actually many cheapskates who own Ferraris. It's not that expensive (relatively) to get yourself into an 80's or 90's Ferrari, and owners bitch and moan endlessly about repair and upkeep costs.

Re:Well, it's the same with cars

[Anonymous Coward]

There are actually many cheapskates who own Ferraris. It's not that expensive (relatively) to get yourself into an 80's or 90's Ferrari, and owners bitch and moan endlessly about repair and upkeep costs.

These are the problems we choose...

Re:Well, it's the same with cars

[technothrasher]

at which point they can void the warranty on those parts, but not the whole car.

They're not even voiding the warranty in that case, they simply have no legal requirement to warranty somebody else's work and/or parts. Any warranty claims would have to be made against whomever did the work.

Re:Well, it's the same with cars

[Anonymous Coward]

The car manufacturer has yet to lock my engine for using that other repair shop.

Re:Well, it's the same with cars

[rainer_d]

How long do other mobile phone manufacturers produce spares?

Can you get spares for a five year old... LG? From LG!
Will LG repair it?

Car manufacturers don't release a new model every year. They release a facelift after three years, and then a relaunch after four years.
That's why they have spares for so long.
I don't think they'd hold on to spares if they released a completely new model every year (or every other year, like Apple).
A co-worker bought a six year old Land Rover Defender a couple of years back for a tour and needed some spares.
The local dealer told him they didn't have spares for it, nor could the order them, because it was "too old".

And Android users even complain when Apple's phones look the same two or three years in a row!

***
I just checked: my iPhone 4S (released in 2011) is still "supported" and thus Apple will repair it (for a price). The predecessor is "vintage", though and Apple won't repair it anymore.
So, Apple seems to support their phones longer than Land Rover Jaguar seems to support their cars.

Re:Well, it's the same with cars

[rainer_d]

Yeah, I'm that sort of guy.

I also go to certified doctors, not "traditional healers". And I'd call certified tradesmen to fix stuff (usually, my landlord will do that for me, though. I don't really have a say in who they call. But then, I usually don't pay for it either).

And I bring my car to "official" dealers, yes. Same for my bike.

Also, the days of backyard repair shops for cars (or just about anything) are coming to an end - fast.

It's sad, in a way (I remember when dad would take the TV set to a local TV repair shop and they guy there would actually replace parts). But this is the way things go. Same as lamenting the demise of eight and six-cylinder engine cars ;-)

Re:Well, it's the same with cars

[rainer_d]

Renault's Zoe electric car usually comes with a leased battery.

If you are late on the payments, they'll just disable the car.

Welcome to the 21st century.

Just like

[AndyKron]

Just like makers of fine vacuum cleaners sold door to door.

i agree with those stating apple is lying

[strstr]

I have repaired Samsung android and LG android phones. I have studied the guides. I have replaced screens.
I have also repaired by myself dell studio XPS and alienware laptops from replacement of the CPU, GPU, heatsink fan, and mobo, and more.

basically every device I've seen is self repairable, designed to open up like nothing, and each component is generally separate easy to remove and replace. this includes the screen, mobo, camera lense, camera itself, cases, bezel, glass on the screen, etc.

one can actually remove just the glass from the screen of most devices easy, and replace it when shattered, re-using the LCD/touch sensor.

on eBay or other site, one can order brand new or refurb every component of every phone.

basically you choose your difficulty level. either you want to replace a shattered screen entirely by ordering a whole new LCD/screen kit, or you attempt to remove the old glass and re-glue on new glass to save some bucks. or you order a new mobo/CPU combo. you just drop in the component removing the old. you re-assemble the phone and you're good. if you break anything during the process you just order a new one of those too.

Apple claims this is somehow too difficult for individual people to do..? why is that? what's it to Apple if you fuck up your phone or something or do low quality repair? the phone is already damaged and used up anyway!

it's so easy a cave man can do it.

https://www.obamasweapon.com/

Re:i agree with those stating apple is lying

[thegarbz]

I have replaced screens.

I have repaired screens. Where replacement screens can cost upwards of $150, on many OLED phones it's possible to actually separate the display from the glass front. I repaired a Galaxy S5 for $11 and those $11 included every tool except of the hot air gun. It not only included UV curing glue but even included the UV lamp needed to cure it.

The repair world quotes based on rip/replace prices. An intermittent problem with the heaphone jack? Replace the entire main circuit board, fixed for $250. No one "repairs" anything anymore except for the tinkerers.

Re:i agree with those stating apple is lying

[Anonymous Coward]

Millennial here. What's a headphone jack?

Mitutoyos on your desk but no where to go

[Anonymous Coward]

I didn't even *read* the comments here but I predict they'll be:
* 12 angry luzers complaining about Apple
* 6 fandroids complaining about Apple
* 2 people wondering where the headphone jack is
* 1 person who actually thinks they can repair the unit on their own
* and 20,000 silent iPhone readers rolling their eyes

Re:Mitutoyos on your desk but no where to go

[Anonymous Coward]

Dont forget the posts such as yours, which contribute nothing towards the topic.

Re:Mitutoyos on your desk but no where to go

[Anonymous Coward]

I'm not the same AC as GP, but people often don't care if they're "contributing" to a topic. Can you even define that objectively? You're attempting to silence with no substantial argument or reasoning.

Then again, the incumbent posting strategy on Slashdot is to inflate the ego and insult others, so it's not like legitimate discourse is going to be found here to begin with.

Re:Mitutoyos on your desk but no where to go

[ledow]

"and 20,000 silent iPhone readers rolling their eyes"

Which, by unit sales, means there'll be 200,000 silent Android readers rolling their eyes at them.

Sorry, but Apple is really nothing special, has never had a "first", doesn't understand that "design" doesn't mean pretty like "designer" does, and sells less than their competitors.

They're only business-positive advantage is that they make SO MUCH profit on every device that they are hugely rich. Which, I'm sorry, is not a criteria I desire in a manufacturer. Sure, they need to be profitable, so they can bring out the next model and sustain their support. But when you're the one paying for it so it sits in an offshore account and never gets used, I don't get it.

From the websites I see statistics for, iPhone users don't figure heavily at all. And the more tech-y the site, the less Apple-y the devices used to access it.

Contradictory

[HalAtWork]

"You don't need to repair this. When you do, we want the repair to be fairly priced and accessible to you,"

First sentence is contradictory with the next sentence. That next sentence is exactly why people want to look at alternatives to Apple.

Re:Contradictory

[Anonymous Coward]

That is exactly what I was going to post. It's like she's retarded or something.

Re:Contradictory

[Anonymous Coward]

Yeah everyone who buys this bullshit is definitely under a spell

Corporate speak

[DaMattster]

That's corporate speak for an assumption and an insult to consumers. I work in technology for a living and do not appreciate being labeled as being "too dumb to repair my own shit." This is what "Apple's top environmental officer" is accusing me of. I would have more respect for Apple if the head shed just came out and said, "We want to control repairs so that we have another stream of revenue." Don't try to sell me on how having an Apple authorized repair center will magically make things easier and worry free because I shouldn't be bothered with wanting to repair my own device. I replaced my girlfriend's cracked screen in an hour simply by watching a Youtube video. 2 years later, it's still working.

Re:Corporate speak

[Anonymous Coward]

I agree 100%. I am a retired electronic technician. I have repaired many computers and other electronic devices, including phones, tablets, Kindles etc... Pretty much everything is modular these days. Repairing these devices is easy, most people could watch a decent video and do the repairs. (Cr)apple just wants to:
A-Make more money by making people come back to them for repairs.
B-tell you that it will cost so much to repair your iDiotphone that you might as well buy a refurbished or a new one instead.
C-make sure that iDiotphone owners never find out just how easy and inexpensive it is to repair their iDiotphone!

Of course its not just (Cr)apple that is doing the planned obsolescence thing, they are just one of the worst!

Obligatory viewing

[Sebby]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?...

Re:Obligatory viewing

[Anonymous Coward]

Seconded, watch much of this guy and you'll realise just how disingenuous and corrupt apple are. They even tried to sue him for telling people how apple products work.

Re:Obligatory viewing

[Anonymous Coward]

In all honesty, while I agree with the general tone of that video, that particular motherboard should not have been repaired but replaced. The corrosion damage isn't going to stop at the few parts he replaced/resoldered. I have repaired electronics before, but it was a last-resort effort in every instance and only happened because I could do it myself. The devices developed other problems not long after, some I could fix as well, some I couldn't. But if I had had to pay half the market value of the item in working condition for each repair, it would not have been worth the cost.

Re:Obligatory viewing

[Anonymous Coward]

That's a private deal between the owner of the iPhone (not Apple, the person who bought the iPhone). If I bought the product, I decide who fixes it, whether it's me or anyone else I choose to pay to fix it.

Re: Obligatory viewing

[Anonymous Coward]

The problem being that replacement boards are expensive. Would you replace a board for $350 or spend zero dollars and an hour of your time to repair a board to perfect working condition? If you remove the corrosion, the corrosion is gone. If it's under a chipset or SMC, well, that gets replaced. Its entirely doable, and is a valid repair.

I say that as someone who has had several years of spill cleanup experience, repairing a junk macbook8,2 MLB for myself, as well as having been personally trained by Louis.

Re: Obligatory viewing

[Anonymous Coward]

Also, I forgot to mention that the vast majority of replacement boards come from suppliers who send out previously liquid damaged boards (most of which have not been adequately cleaned and still have corrosion), or are boards which show clear signs of having been reworked. I've gotten one from a major supplier (named like a pre-Intel Mac) that had jumper wires before.

So, roll that around in your noodle before you go buying boards from dodgy sources.

Developing Country

[jblues]

I live in a developing country and there are plenty of repair options since a) nothing is regulated b) average wages are so low that it is economically viable to set up a repair shop. c) Close to China too, so parts are no problem.

It can be much cheaper than an official Apple repair. One ipad the LCD (not just the glass) was cracked. It looked like they replaced it with a 2nd tier part in terms of quality, but the device was basically bricked before they had at it. Its a good option when official repairs are a substantial portion of the cost of new, two generations later device.

Re: It doesn't go far enough.

[Anonymous Coward]

Name one place in the world where anyone is forced to buy an iPhone and I'll eat my hat. Fuck off with the hyperbole.

Apple: Users are too stupid

[Anonymous Coward]

Apple is basically saying their users are stupid. Not sure why this is noteworthy. For the most part they are right. Soon they will just skip the lying and just say its because they want to control everything and gouge their customers further. And their users still won't care.

Is this for real?

[Hognoxious]

Strip off the i and they won't be complex any more. Do I have to do all the thinking round here?

Re:Is this for real?

[Anonymous Coward]

I see what you did there, lol.

It can't be that complex

[Anonymous Coward]

If it were that complex, I don't how Foxconn's child labor lines would be able to manufacture them.

Android/Google isn't any better...

[Anonymous Coward]

Android accomplishes unrepairability via software - either buy a new phone or allow unfettered hacking of your data via unpatched security flaws. The phone (security) lifetime depending on the hardware vendor to provide updates. Even Google's Nexus phones are cut off after a few years. They one up Apple by not depending on hardware failure to force you to buy a new phone. (No, I'm not an Apple fanboy, I own a Nexus.)

It's instructive to note I am writing this on a home built desktop where I can fix anything that goes wrong in 15 min for $50 or less (8300 CPU, small SSD boot drive.) No, it doesn't play games, but for my use -Office, browsing, ... it is indistinguishable from the latest i9-7920X Skylake-X machine for my tasks. (To be sure for number grinding I use an i3 $125-fix machine with a cheap graphics card as a math coprocessor and just try to find a better algorithm if that isn't enuf.)

Just confirms my opnion

[TheAngryCat]

I keep seeing reasons why not to buy an iPhone. A friend commented on his iPhone-7 $600.00 for the average person to replace the battery. He was referring to the lack of a removable battery. I'll stick with my LG V-20 a couple of mm thicker but seriously, who gives a crap. If Apple ran the US we would be an authoritarian dictatorship, and changing light bulbs in your home would require you to buy another home.

Re:Just confirms my opnion

[Anonymous Coward]

How is the V20 compared to the G4? I've had a G4 for a while and it works great, but the V10 and V20 had my attention briefly. Does LG still do locked bootloaders?

Re:Just confirms my opnion

[Anonymous Coward]

Your friend is full of shit. It cost $80 to replace the battery in the iPhone if taken to an authorized service provider. There are unauthorized places that do it for less.

Re:Just confirms my opnion

[Anonymous Coward]

Welcome to the echo chamber. Your truthiness is much appreciated.

Chinese workers

[Anonymous Coward]

Apple has warehouses of cheap labor Chinese workers putting these things together and they say their too complex to take repair? B.S.

"Fairly priced"

[Anonymous Coward]

LOL. Fairly priced as in charging $75 for a charger made up from $0.75 worth of material? And please, don't talk about R&D and what not, it's a damn charger, not a quantum computer.

Too complex for repair?

[Opportunist]

Sounds like you suck at designing sensible products, Apple.

Re:Too complex for repair?

[freeze128]

OK, Apple, PROVE IT! If you say that iPhones are too complex to repair, then start SOLDERING the screen, camera, other components directly to the motherboard. Don't use any type of easy "quick release" connector. After all, the iPhone is "Sooo Complex", so it should actually be HARD to repair. Only then will I believe that your iPhones are as difficult to repair as you say.

apple philosophy in one quote

[Anonymous Coward]

from the MB article:

"And Apple has designed for some time around durability, around the idea we can release the latest and greatest product, your old product still works and has value"

there you have it, they design the phones so the early adopters can sell them and then buy the latest and greatest phone when the next one comes out. which presumably means that the second owner of the phone will have use until they are able to buy the next version used of course.. Planned obsolescence at its finest.

Re: It doesn't go far enough.

[lucm]

Name one place in the world where anyone is forced to buy an iPhone and I'll eat my hat.

Silicon Valley

Just rely on us. You're too stupid to fix it.

[biggaijin]

This is one of the major reasons that I stopped using Apple products many years ago. They charge a premium price for a device that is welded shut and can't be repaired. They cover their elitist attitude by flattering potential users with claims that their customers are somehow more artistic and creative than the hoi polloi. It's nonsense. They are all about selling as much overpriced hardware as possible.

Re:It doesn't go far enough.

[jellomizer]

If anything, most phone makers would love to put iOS on their devices, and not so much iPhone users wanting to put Android on it.

Apple vs Auto-Industry

[Anonymous Coward]

Sounds like the auto industry, making things so you can't work on your own car. I grew up when part of growing up was learning how to work on your things and it was fun.

allegedly "Smart" alleged "telephones"

[jabberw0k]

You are not permitted to write software for your own computing devices. You are not permitted to control your own computing devices. You have no way of knowing what your computing devices are doing, even as they monitor your every movement, your every word.

And you have the unmitigated gall to expect to be able to repair your own computing devices?

What will it take, before folks realize anyone using a so-called "smart" so-called "telephone" is being played for a patsy, a mark, a victim? Or are the masses so brainwashed they will continue to use these Orwellian telescreens?

Re:allegedly "Smart" alleged "telephones"

[ledow]

My smartphone has a native-running C compiler on it.

If I wanted to, I could replace it with a free, open-source version of the same OS that it's already running.

If my phone does something over Wifi, I guarantee you that I can know about it. Over 4G etc. is another matter, but to be honest, if you're running an OS you can audit pretty much you could just switch that off, use it only for GSM and isolate anything talking in or out.

Repair components are easy to come by.

My phone is just a mass-market Android smartphone, nothing special.

Fact is, not enough people care, as proven by the existence and hyping of a company that doesn't let you do the above in preference. But even then, Android outsells iOS by about 10:1, but people never believe / research that statistic until you tell them that.

Outside of that, say if you have a complete distrust of anything Android related even if it's not controlled by Google, what choice do you have? Zero. Therefore you take the device you can buy today in a shop and use it appropriately, rather than sit in your cave in the woods complaining about this "new-fangled fire thing, it's just an Orwellian conspiracy".

The tools exist. People don't care. Even when it's obvious, stated, admitted, brought up, demonstrated, people don't care. They just want to play Angry Birds and make calls. If it actually mattered to them - for anything other than lip-service when you mention it - they'd not buy those kinds of devices. Fact is, it doesn't matter to them. Even the celebrity phone-hacks, stolen photos, etc. nobody actually CARES about or people would be up in arms thinking "What if that was my daughter".

You're onto a loser if you think people just need a certain incident to make them realise what's happening. Just look at the news any day of the week.

3rd line forcing is illegal in Australia

[Anonymous Coward]

As is not supplying spare parts - but unless you are a lawyer they will get away with it.

Apple is not the only villain - top brand watch makers are refusing to supply spares unreasonably, as are camera makers.

It is a cancer and needs to be stomped out. In addition, once no firmware upgrades are available and the product obsoleted - anyone should be able to sell upgrades for the obsolete product, including recompiled/zapped firmware.

You just described the most common license.

[robbak]

What you describe - free and unfettered access to the source code and tools, without having to agree to anything - is a good description of the GPL. You do not have to agree to the GPL to download, edit or use code - at least, not beyond the standard, 'no warranty, no liability' clauses. The only time you have to agree to the GPL is when you distribute it to someone else - you must share the code if you do distribute it - which, if you are fixing defective code, is exactly what you want to do. Give someone the source code, or a compiled binary with the source code, and you have fulfilled all your GPL obligations.

Re: It doesn't go far enough.

[Holi]

Absolute Bull Shit.

You may get what you wish for...

[Anonymous Coward]

Don't beg for laws. You will get the laws... but you may not like them. Apple would change "right to repair" to mean "right to repair only with Authorized Apple training and Authorized Apple tools".

Businesses are a lot better than government. The invisible hand is a lot better at dealing with stupid stuff than any government body with laws. Ayn Rand is right about this (arguably, right about a lot of things, but only in the US is her importance recognized.)

There are no authorized repair shops.

[robbak]

If you iDevice is damaged, an apple store will sell you a new one. If it is covered under warranty, they'll swap it for someone else's trade-in. If you have irreplaceable data on your phone, stiff cheese; you should have backed it up.

Meanwhile, a non-authorized repair shop will fix almost any problem you have, unless Apple has taken technological (and unnecessary) measures to prevent it, at least until those measures are worked around. And if the problem is serious and unrepairable, they'll still get your data back to you if you are willing to pay for the extensive, detailed work that is often needed.

And these 'unauthorized' repair shops will often work out problems, and fixes, before Apple does.

Re: There are no authorized repair shops.

[Anonymous Coward]

See also; 2011 15" MacBook Pros with dying GFX chipsets. A guy where I worked figured out that Apple's heat grease was the culprit. Basically they put in WAY too much, and instead of the heat being channeled from the die to the heat pipe (which is very thermally saturated) it gets transferred to the substrate, which destroys the top layer of traces over time.

Apple TIM sucks at least a dozen dicks before lunch, and that goes doubly so for how much they put on.

Three examples.

[Anonymous Coward]

SCSI old vs new framework
Xorg side of drm drivers for DRI1 devices (kernel supports them, X hasn't in ~10 years. Drivers barely matured and they were out.)
UAS vs USB-STORAGE driver. Former breaks HGST Touro enclosures requiring unplugging power on the device to restart. Worked in 3.12 and before, broken in 3.13 and above, incuding the whole 4 series. Been discussed to death, and requires manual blacklisting/removal of drivers to make it work again. Sucks for those of us using them as a bootable system drive.)

There really aren't that many linux drivers for x86 hardware that get dropped without a replacement in place. There are however LOTS of cornercases of devices that might get broken, or interact differently depending on driver. The latest for me being an ATI V3800 card, which is Southern Islands, but which the amdgpu X11 driver was trying to coopt the last time I used it, even though it should be firmly placed as a radeon/r600/radeonsi device, which all use the same kernel module.

If you notice, about half of the problems are further up the stack and not always linux kernel issues themselves.

That said, with the current commercialized push in kernel development a lot more devices are falling through the cracks of QA even compared to amateur hour in the past.

End of the cycle

[sphealey]

Every technology goes through a cycle where the homebuilders and tinkerers are an important part of the ecosystem, and have a lot of fun doing so. Telegraph, electricity, radio, automobiles, airplanes all went through that cycle. Then the technology gets perfected, cleaned up, buttoned up, and ordinary human beings (non-tinkerers) just start using it for everyday. That leaves the hobbyists who come along at the end of the cycle and the greybeards who were there in the early days sad and unhappy, but that's the way it goes. Personal computers and mobile computing have now reached that point.

"authorized service provider"= code for mail house

[citizenr]

"authorized service provider" is ONLY allowed to package the thing and send it to Texas , wait a week and receive _completely another_ refurbished unit.
They arent even allowed to replace batteries!

Complexity is a red herring. Don't fall for it.

[jbn-o]

"To think about these very complex products and say the answer to all our problems is that you should have anybody to repair and have access to the parts is not looking at the whole problem."

Complexity of the device is irrelevant, a distraction, and a red herring. The issue here is an owner's right to repair what they own, and this case should be fought and discussed on that basis. Any other argument (such as ones posted here like people saying they just won't buy Apple products) that even tacitly gives into an owner being denied repair right because the device is deemed to be "complex" is a very dangerous argument to make. It's right and proper to not do business with organizations that don't treat you properly, so not buying Apple products and services is perfectly reasonable and recommendable. But you're better off doing that while also letting the public know that it's better to demand a right to repair everything you own and not give into this notion that sufficiently "complex" items somehow legitimate denying an owner the right to repair their own devices. Apple's desire for more power and money may well "not looking at the whole problem" but that is not your problem.

Re:Complexity is a red herring. Don't fall for it.

[david_thornley]

Sure, you can repair an iPhone yourself (or try to, anyway), but Apple isn't going to help you. This isn't about "Right to Repair", it's "Right to Get Repair-Related Documents and Parts".

It just works ... for the moment

[Hognoxious]

How many years of support do you expect from Apple

One. After that the hardware will break anyway.

Re:It just works ... for the moment

[david_thornley]

I've never had an Apple product fail in under three years, and I've had a fair number of them since the Mac SE came out.

If that's true, fix for free

[Anonymous Coward]

If they really are that complex, they need to fix for free. Beyond 1 year

Garage engineers..

[Anonymous Coward]

Dont under estimate the ingenuity of garage engineers
  They are way more talented than the paid engineers Apple/Samsung have.

Apple Have A Point

[Roger W Moore]

I have a 2009 Mac Pro.

The Mac Pro makes an excellent point in Apple's favour though because become so complex that Apple can't even figure out how to upgrade it. They had the same model for over 4 years with no updates so with complexity like that it's not even clear that they know how to repair it let alone anyone else.

Re:Apple Have A Point

[Carewolf]

I have a 2009 Mac Pro.

The Mac Pro makes an excellent point in Apple's favour though because become so complex that Apple can't even figure out how to upgrade it. They had the same model for over 4 years with no updates so with complexity like that it's not even clear that they know how to repair it let alone anyone else.

Man, it took my a while to decide you were being sarcastic.. Good sarcasm :D

Re: It doesn't go far enough.

[lucm]

Absolute Bull Shit.

Bullshit indeed. Silicon Valley is all about "diversity" but they're basically just about having the same type of hipster/fanboi/antitrump young people in various shades of colors and genders. That's not diversity, that's variations on the same model.

Re:It doesn't go far enough.

[Anonymous Coward]

Citation needed.

Cook, Jackson et al. Should Be Disposable Too

[Anonymous Coward]

Would be funny to see Cook, Jackson and the other Apple Ink monkeys refused service at hospitals.

Don't buy phones that are hard to repair!

[rleibman]

When I'm on the market for a new phone, I make it a point to send an email to the manufacturers of those I consider letting them know that I consider repairability a selling point. I also won't buy anything that scores below a 7 on this site: Repariability Score. I'm currently considering the latest Motorola phone to use on google fi, but I won't buy it until it's been rated.

Re:Don't buy phones that are hard to repair!

[tomtomtom]

Ironically, if you look at the Apple phones on that list, what springs out at you is that over time the repairability scores have been getting better for them!

LOL, yeah right

[XSportSeeker]

Oh yeah, iPhones are too complex to repair... which is probably why lots of independent repair shops are doing it at lower prices than official Apple repair, faster and more reliably.
I bet they are also trying to spare people the complexity of it by lobbying against any laws that would allow independent repair shops to fix their stuff.

This probably also has nothing to do with the fact that independent repair shops are often the ones finding out about design flaws and overall problems of iPhones that would never have been disclosed if people didn't have the choice... like the touch ID disease case. Nonono.

Re:Bad service design is not the same as complexit

[Anonymous Coward]

It's actually a good point that all of their environmental posturing means nothing if their phones are planned obsolete.

They provide it to Asurion

[modzer0]

That's funny because Asurion has multiple repair centers that tear down and refurbish iPhones and use Apple parts and maintenance interfaces that they're given access to. Nothing about what they do couldn't be done elsewhere by a trained technician.

Apple Is Too "Incompetent"

[Anonymous Coward]

To design repairable devices.

Anyone buy that BS?

[p51d007]

Design it with a 2-3 score (iFixit scale), then say that if you have it repaired somewhere else, sorry...we'll not replace it. (cr)APPLE strikes again. Take away the fingerprint sensor, make some goofy face thing that doesn't work, make it impossible to repair, use "security" screws that are impossible to find the tools to take it apart...nothing like pissing off people, but, for the iSheep, they will see this as an "innovation".

"Durability"

[OldSport]

Sneaky. From TFA:

"And Apple has designed for some time around durability, around the idea we can release the latest and greatest product, your old product still works and has value."

What they're not saying (but what every owner of an Apple product figures out at some point) is that every successive OS upgrade makes that "durable" hardware less and less usable. Apple gets to have their cake and eat it to: produce great hardware they can use as a selling point, but then cripple it with software to make sure the durability doesn't hinder sales.

Re:"Durability"

[Anonymous Coward]

Nobody is forcing you to upgrade software.

Re:"Durability"

[david_thornley]

Typically, you don't want to do an upgrade to a new major version without checking reviews. Sometimes the last one isn't good for the device. I've got a four-year-old iPhone running iOS 10 just fine.

Re:It doesn't go far enough.

[Anonymous Coward]

Iphones doesn't matter. We already don't buy them. Fair repair bills affect a lot more and this terrible company is stopping progress in a lot of areas.

There you go...

[VeryFluffyBunny]

...Apple fans. What Apple Inc. really thinks of you.

Planned Obsolesence

[Anonymous Coward]

Artificial knee capping of hardware to make a buck...apple computers = garbage.

Pretty outrageous

[HermMunster]

At 200 to 500% the cost of the market's average repair costs that's rich and outrageous.

Sorry calling BS on this

[cmaurand]

An iPhone, an Android device are all the same. They are a system on a board and in some cases a system on a couple of chips. They are no more complicated than your desktop or you laptop; just smaller. So I"m calling BS on this one. Apple just wants control.