Slashdot Mirror


America's 'Rent Crisis' May Be Ending (fortune.com)

An anonymous reader quotes Fortune: A new study suggests that nearly a decade of housing shortages and rising rents in the U.S. may be reversing course... From 2010 to 2016, America added nearly a million renter households a year. But the census showed a decline in that growth rate in 2016, and some early 2017 data shows an actual decline in renters so far in 2017. Recent census data also shows a rise in vacancy rates.

According to Harvard's Joint Center for Housing Studies, that's because foreclosure numbers have declined and young homebuyers are re-entering the market. Home ownership in the U.S. took a big hit from the foreclosure crisis and Great Recession of 2007-2012, while the rental market struggled to meet the new demand. Other insights in the report mostly follow from that shifting reality. Rents are increasing more slowly. Fewer renter households are "cost-burdened," or paying more than 30% of their income in rent, than they were two years ago.

The report also predicts that many high-income households may continue renting rather than buying a home. But it'd be interesting to hear how that compares to Slashdot readers around the world. Are you renting or buying -- and if renting, do you feel that your rent is too high?

584 comments

  1. No, it's all going to hell again by drinkypoo · · Score: 0

    Some of you may have noticed that California is, has been, and likely will continue to be on fire. This is driving people out of the state. While it will eventually result in higher-density housing being built in some of the affected areas, eventually improving rental pricing, rents in nocal have gone straight through the roof. The same will soon happen in the rest of the state, thanks to the fires currently ablaze in socal. Since California is the most populous state in the union, what affects us affects everyone.

    The places with cheap rents are hellholes like Flint.

    --
    "You're right," Fisheye says. "I should have set it on 'whip' or 'chop.'"
    1. Re:No, it's all going to hell again by CrimsonAvenger · · Score: 5, Insightful

      Since California is the most populous state in the union, what affects us affects everyone.

      Umm, no.

      California's issues generally affect everyone eventually, but housing, being non-mobile, isn't an exportable issue. Lack of rental housing in California won't really affect the availability of rental units in New Orleans, nor will it affect the prices there.

      Yeah, it's going to suck trying to rent in CA for a while, but that's going to be a purely local issue....

      --

      "I do not agree with what you say, but I will defend to the death your right to say it"
    2. Re:No, it's all going to hell again by Austerity+Empowers · · Score: 5, Insightful

      It's not just driving people out, employers are moving out too where possible. It's creating some trouble, here around the suburbs of Austin there's a lot of consternation about (of all things) the number of democrats moving in, or at the very least some of the demands and conflicting cultural values of people moving in. I do not live in Austin proper, which has been blue for quite some time, but in surrounding counties which had been very, very red. There was an actual fight at a school meeting where someone stood up and said they don't care about the football team, why are our SAT scores so far below the national average.

      The irony that red-state is good for business (and giving attractive tax breaks) comes with an inrush of comparatively liberal population is enjoyable to observe. It turns out that you can't have your cake and eat it too.

    3. Re:No, it's all going to hell again by Baron_Yam · · Score: 1, Insightful

      >While it will eventually result in higher-density housing being built in some of the affected areas, eventually improving rental pricing,

      Human societies are similar to forests in this aspect - occasionally we need a fire (or other disaster, like a big war) to wreak some destruction so in the long run we remain healthy.

      In the case of humans, we invest in infrastructure and then as long as we have a choice, are extremely hesitant to tear it down and rebuild with something better. Even if we see other, newer places, are leaving us behind.

      Burn it down and that option is no longer viable, so we move forward.

    4. Re:No, it's all going to hell again by drinkypoo · · Score: 5, Insightful

      California's issues generally affect everyone eventually, but housing, being non-mobile, isn't an exportable issue.

      People are already leaving California due to housing issues, so it is completely bananas to suggest that it's not exportable. The people will be exported, and they will need housing. You don't seem to understand how long it takes to get this much housing rebuilt. It literally cannot be done fast enough to avoid many people having to leave the state.

      --
      "You're right," Fisheye says. "I should have set it on 'whip' or 'chop.'"
    5. Re:No, it's all going to hell again by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      The people leaving are free to go. If they leave the state, that is no major loss for anyone. In fact, if someone can't afford to live in an area like core SF or the posh areas of LA, they need to go somewhere else. NYC always has jobs.

      There is no rental "crisis". Rent has merely kept up with inflation, and the main reason why it goes up is because of tax hikes. It is just people complaining or just don't want to spend time with a job that pays what living the LA lifestyle requires.

    6. Re:No, it's all going to hell again by K.+S.+Kyosuke · · Score: 1

      Perhaps the idea was that California is so populated that significantly rising rents in California may outweigh on average the decline elsewhere? You don't need to "export" them if you're counting a national average. (Whether that average is useful is another question, obviously.)

      --
      Ezekiel 23:20
    7. Re:No, it's all going to hell again by MSTCrow5429 · · Score: 1

      The US is a national market, with freedom of travel a constitutional right. Prices are affected throughout by housing disturbances in any other part of the country, although it is likely to be minimal to non-measurable in most instances.

      Lack of rental housing in X can lead to apartment building in Y, which will lead to lower prices in Y, which will lead to higher-rent construction in Z, which will lead to less construction in AA...

      --
      Slashdot: Playing Favorites Since 1997
    8. Re:No, it's all going to hell again by zifn4b · · Score: 2

      Some of you may have noticed that California is, has been, and likely will continue to be on fire. This is driving people out of the state.

      That seems like a perfectly reasonable response to me...

      --
      We'll make great pets
    9. Re:No, it's all going to hell again by bobbied · · Score: 2

      Some of you may have noticed that California is, has been, and likely will continue to be on fire. This is driving people out of the state.

      I hate to burst your little bubble, but folks are not leaving California because Hollywood is on fire...They are leaving because it's too expensive.

      Folks are leaving states like IL, NY and CA because of local and state tax rates and because their employers are moving to places like TX and FL where the taxes are lower and housing prices are not crazy high.

      How do I know this? Because I live in TX where they are building houses and apartment buildings as fast as they can throw them up. I can see 5 apartment complexes with over 200 units each being built from my office window right now and when I drive around I see a large percentage of license plates from high tax states. It's like an invasion at times.

      Not that I mind.... My house's value has been increasing some 10% a year of late. Homes around here are being sold above asking price almost before they get listed. Give it another 5-7 years of this and I'll have a nice profit to help make the retirement better...

      --
      "File to fit, pound to insert, paint to match" - Aircraft Maintenance 101
    10. Re:No, it's all going to hell again by The+Cynical+Critic · · Score: 2

      I doubt the fires themselves will drive people out of the state on the whole. Sure, some people whose house burns down may not build a new house where the old one stood, but with their jobs and most social connections being in the state it's going to take much more to make any significant amount of people leave the state.

      As for higher density housing, i.e apartment buildings, the reason so few have been built despite the demand has mostly to do with the NIMBY home owner's associations and the fires won't do much about them. Sure, land to build them may now be easier to come by when people sell their land in fire prone areas and actual burnt down neighborhoods, the home owner's associations and their deep dislike of the lower income people who will be living in those apartments will still be there to torpedo any and all attempts to build high density housing anywhere near a suburb.

      --
      "Why should I want to make anything up? Life's bad enough as it is without wanting to invent any more of it."
    11. Re:No, it's all going to hell again by aaarrrgggh · · Score: 4, Insightful

      Housing in California is generally more of a localized issue rather than a state-wide issue. The fires fall into the same category; Marin, Napa, and Sonoma are pretty messed up in housing stock due to the fires (and SF, Alameda, Contra Costa, Santa Clara, and San Mateo were already screwed up).

      Southern California is a different issue; the car culture lacks rational limits on commuting time. Temecula is now a bedroom community for Los Angeles, as are several other cities 70+ miles away. The sprawl is what limits rational development.

      California logically needs more quality housing stock in self-sufficient, walkable communities; there is a large population that lives here until they have kids, then move "back home." This is a natural situation where renting works, but condos are fine too. Until the problem is addressed you will keep having people move to Oregon, Nevada, and Arizona and spreading the same problems there.

      Nation-wide though, the real issue is smart development and anticipating 20-50% higher populations in 10 years in communities. You don't do that with "master planned communities" with thousands of single family homes 50-80 miles from where the jobs are.

    12. Re:No, it's all going to hell again by dcw3 · · Score: 3, Informative

      You've clearly never been to Flint. I have...I grew up about twenty miles away, and while the city itself sucks, you can live in a very nice home with some of the best year round sports, shopping, and amenities just a few miles away, at prices Californians can only dream of.

      I manage a team a team in northern CA, and travel there frequently. You've got nothing on MI except higher taxes.

      --
      Just another day in Paradise
    13. Re:No, it's all going to hell again by drinkypoo · · Score: 5, Interesting

      Perhaps the idea was that California is so populated that significantly rising rents in California may outweigh on average the decline elsewhere?

      No, but it's that too. The rents up here in much of nocal (anywhere you could conceivably commute from) have about doubled. There are literally people commuting through Lake county where I live to get from where they live in Mendocino county to where they work in Napa county, or even the hind end of Sonoma, and that was true even before the fires up here. You can expect essentially the same thing to happen in socal now. Probably central California will not rise too much, but since the rents there are already exorbitant and well beyond the reach of the average family, this is not much consolation.

      California has taken on a large number of people from other states, who came here seeking a liberal refuge. Thanks to the way our presidential selection system works, this has had a deleterious effect on political sanity in America. It will be interesting to see what effect some degree of exodus results in, which will depend very much on where those people wind up. That will be fascinating in itself...

      --
      "You're right," Fisheye says. "I should have set it on 'whip' or 'chop.'"
    14. Re:No, it's all going to hell again by drinkypoo · · Score: 1, Insightful

      You've clearly never been to Flint. I have...I grew up about twenty miles away,

      Okay, the place my lady spent the biggest part of her childhood was Flint, so while I'm not an expert I do have some first-hand information about what it was actually like to live there. Her brother visited the old neighborhood and less than one house in ten is still standing and in good condition; the rest are lots full of weeds, rocks, and broken glass, or burned-out husks — presumably set alight either by looters, junkies, or residents trying to burn out looters and junkies. I'll pass, thanks.

      I manage a team a team in northern CA, and travel there frequently. You've got nothing on MI except higher taxes.

      This is not about the state as a whole, or a hole, or even about any state in particular, really. It's about the specific places where rents and homes are actually cheap. You don't want to live in them. Flint is just the one I hear about the most, since I live with a former Flinturdian.

      --
      "You're right," Fisheye says. "I should have set it on 'whip' or 'chop.'"
    15. Re: No, it's all going to hell again by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1

      There was an actual fight at a school meeting where someone stood up and said they don't care about the football team, why are our SAT scores so far below the national average.

      >

      Only a fight? In Alabama, they would have stoned the unbeliever.

      More seriously, Texas is closer to being blue than most people realize, though not the Republican legislators who are desperately gerrymandering and suppressing votes.

      Of course, they've also long relied on the oil export business, but now wind may be their savor, as long as they don't get beset by another Enron.

    16. Re: No, it's all going to hell again by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 2, Informative

      How do I know this? Because I live in TX where they are building houses and apartment buildings as fast as they can throw them up.

      That seems like trouble waiting to happen. Oh wait, Harvey already did. Expect more.

      Reminds me of Homestead after Hugo. Of course, they've rebuilt, but I know a dozen people who left those communities because they were so soulless and lacking in neighborliness.

    17. Re:No, it's all going to hell again by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      All we need is for the next big quake to slide Cali into the ocean and all our problems will be solved.

    18. Re:No, it's all going to hell again by jellomizer · · Score: 0

      Is it a bunch of Democrats moving in, or it it a bunch of republicans who are dying out? Being that the Baby boomers, who have been holding onto their jobs and pretending that 70 is the new 50 because their generation is afraid of getting old. So they are finally getting too old to work, so they are finally getting replaced by younger replacements. While may be green and over idealistic at time, also bring in a different approach to solving problems, dealing with people, and who are working hard to prevent their new homes from become an outdated mess.
      If a company comes in due to tax breaks. This is often a bad long term situation for a community. Living near some post industrial towns, I see the following trends. Town give new big company tax breaks to bring in such company who has a thousand jobs. Town loans out millions of dollars to prep for the influx of people and services. Company stays there for a decade then moves to the next state offering a better deal, leaving the town with 20 more years to pay off debt that they no longer have the tax base to pay it off.
      Many of the largest cities with booming economy are actually high tax, very blue cities. So they can have their cake and eat it too. Because although expensive to operate these cities offer many other services to these businesses, be availability to ports, close by to other companies that they can work with, large population to bring in a lot of customers. Attractive activities to attract foreign investors. Because really if you are a foreign investor who needs to go to America, what sounds better a week in New York City, a week in Los Angeles or a week in Dallas Texas?

      --
      If something is so important that you feel the need to post it on the internet... It probably isn't that important.
    19. Re:No, it's all going to hell again by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      There is no Constitutional right to travel. If there was, we'd be seeing sex offenders leaving the country in big numbers. Our sex offender laws are some of the worst in the civilized world and we have this ludicrous paranoia about them despite extremely low percentages (6% after 10 years is typical) of repeat offenders. They tried to pass an international version of sex offender registration which died in committee but would have basically blocked sex offenders from leaving the country, even if they never wanted to come back.

      Ignoring those people, ask any of the nutty people that call themselves "sovereign citizens" and think they have a "right to travel." Ask the people who have been forced to show ID even when they had committed no crime and were not even suspected of such.

      There is no Constitutional right to travel...but there should be.

    20. Re:No, it's all going to hell again by EvilSS · · Score: 2

      Unless you are claiming that a significant (>33%) of the population is leaving, I don't see it having much effect across the rest of the US. I realize Californians can be a bit myopic when it comes to things going on outside of their state, but the rest of the country is pretty damn big. Unless all those leaving are concentrating in one area when they settle back down, it won't move the needle much. And even then, it would be a localized issue, restricted to the area they resettled in.

      --
      I browse on +1 so AC's need not respond, I won't see it.
    21. Re:No, it's all going to hell again by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1

      The places with cheap rents are hellholes like Flint.

      Yes, but how long can we afford to keep places not nice instead of just... ya know like replace the damn lead pipes? If you look at places like Flint you have to wonder how much time, money and effort went into avoiding fixing the problems versus just methodically replacing the lead pipes year by year until it was done.

      These things don't "just happen". It takes a lot of active planning to create the kind of place that keeps people feeling completely segregated and hopeless.

    22. Re:No, it's all going to hell again by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Because really if you are a foreign investor who needs to go to America, what sounds better a week in New York City, a week in Los Angeles or a week in Dallas Texas?

      Well, I've been in all three and I'd actually pick what's behind door #4. LA has great weather. New York has lots of interesting multi-cultural stuff and can be gotten around via mass transit, unless you want to go to specific things off the path. Dallas is Dallas, lot's of restaurants and things to do but less than NYC, the weather's worse than LA most of the year. You absolutely need a vehicle to get around outside of a couple of very small areas.

      But, we're talking investors, and investors are interested in potentials. For that, San Francisco, Seattle, Austin, and Boston would be your top picks for a lot of hi tech focal areas, followed by a slew of secondaries which include Dallas and NYC.

    23. Re:No, it's all going to hell again by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      People -think- Austin is a "true" liberal city. Population... yes, it is Democratic.

      However, the city council isn't. They will happily give zoning variances with tax abatements if asked nicely. They will happily allow multi-story office towers and residential condos to be built on streets that cannot take the added traffic. They have not done a single highway expansion since 1995, other than adding toll roads, or converting normal roads (south 71 between the airport and Bastrop) into toll roads. It may sound "liberal", but it isn't really. The city has single member districts, and the council people only care about what happens in their district, so nothing gets done unless the state of Texas or some well-heeled contractor steps in.

      Of course, the council tries to be "liberal" in some counts... like trying to pass a ban on bump stocks as a token gesture. However, if a developer snaps their fingers, the city council comes to attention and passes what is asked for, stat.

      Of course, if you go outside of Austin, better blend in. The surrounding counties have zero tolerance for it.

    24. Re:No, it's all going to hell again by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      You should probably stop drinking your poo.

    25. Re:No, it's all going to hell again by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      In the case of humans, we invest in infrastructure and then as long as we have a choice, are extremely hesitant to tear it down and rebuild with something better.

      I'd disagree, and so would the historical preservation society. We humans are more than willing to tear things down and build something new. IMNSHO, the historical preservation society of <take your pick> is usually what's holding back progress, many times for little reason than "it's old"

    26. Re:No, it's all going to hell again by sg_oneill · · Score: 2

      It happened here in Western Australia with the Mining Boom. Trillions of dollars of metals where pulled out of the ground in the north west and miners where getting $150K+ (And by plus, one guy I know, a metalurgist, was pulling about $300K, although in some respects the man was responsible for turning a $1mil a month pilot mine into a $10 mil a week full mine, so he certainly earned it). The end result was it sent properties through the roof. Whereas 15 years ago, houses costing more than a million made the front page of the paper, by the end of the boom it wasnt that far from the median in the richer suburbs. Hell $300K would barely get you a 1 bedroom flat in the arse end of shitsville, and the rents went up accordingly. Worst of all, in many northern towns rents where going up to well about $1K a week for a bedroom, and in many of those towns there was high unemployment because the mining companies would fly in their own staff, buy up all the real estate and fill *all* of the rentals with fly-in-fly-out miners, which had a horrific effect on the local aboriginal populations which would never get offered jobs and then where unable to find accomodation leading to rural homelessness and basic social meltdown. It was fucked

      And then the bom just ended. The chinese discovered you could hire africans to mine metal for $2 an hour and not have to worry about environmental regulations if you just wanted to dump a half million tonnes of cyanide into the ground water.

      So now the rents are SORT of better, but I suspect we're in for the sort of crash that struck the US 15 years ago which in many respects was caused by people paying far more for their houses than they can afford. Mortgages are certainly starting to crack as people who thought the good times would last forever suddenly realise they only have skills for manual labor and packing boxes at kmart dont quite pay the same as driving a forklift in kalgoorlie. So they either sell off, and get far less than they paid, rent it out for less than it'll take to pay the mortgage, or leave it empty and hope for the best. Theres a lot of empty houses right now, and a lot of homeless folk.

      But fortunately my rents now back down to $300 a week, dramatically less than it used to be. So thats good.

      --
      Excuse the Unicode crap in my posts. That's an apostrophe, and slashdot is busted.
    27. Re:No, it's all going to hell again by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1

      No, not just illegals. Hollywood hyped up California as a magical utopia where magic is real, unicorns fart glitter, and dreams come true. Plus regardless of the questionable intelligence of expats from other states... The weather is pretty fucking nice.

      Itinerant non-natives aren't an issue, though. The real problem, though, is the California natives that are being forced to flee. That'll increase under Tax Reform, because poor "working class" slobs with $1.5m houses are already REEEEEEE'ing about their property taxes.

      These people will absolutely try to export their failed governance to the states they end up in.

    28. Re:No, it's all going to hell again by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      There absolutely is a constitutional right to travel. No one is going to stop you from walking across the border from one state to the next, to the next, to the next.

      Air and vehicular traffic is generally not defined as a right though; it's usually defined as a privilege, (hence why you need a driver's license or to show ID to get on board an airplane.)

      We can debate all day if you should have a right to vehicular or air travel, but there's certainly nothing stopping you from walking.

    29. Re:No, it's all going to hell again by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1

      I realize Californians can be a bit myopic when it comes to things going on outside of their state

      While the rest of the world realizes that Americans can be more than a bit myopic when it comes to things going on outside of their country.

    30. Re:No, it's all going to hell again by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      California is, has been, and likely will continue to be on fire.

      Making this proposed border wall a bit of a fire hazard, in the way that locking a theatre's exit doors is.

    31. Re:No, it's all going to hell again by MightyYar · · Score: 1

      Sorry, but 1000 structures or so isn't going to make a measureable difference in the housing market, not even at the state level. It's a very localized problem. For scale, LA has approximately 100,000 hotel rooms. Two medium-sized high rises in Manhattan have more housing units than those fires have destroyed.

      --
      W..w..W - Willy Waterloo washes Warren Wiggins who is washing Waldo Woo.
    32. Re:No, it's all going to hell again by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      The places with cheap rents are hellholes like Flint.

      Having lived in both Flint and California in the past, I can tell you that in all honesty, it would be a tough decision if I had to choose between moving back to either of them.

      There are just so many other better places to live without any of the problems of either of them, that there would need to be a really compelling reason to make such a decision.

    33. Re:No, it's all going to hell again by mysidia · · Score: 0

      You don't seem to understand how long it takes to get this much housing rebuilt.

      Building a house doesn't necessarily take that long; if you don't have a million local building regulations to comply with --- you can have a livable hut with kitchen and bedspace constructed within a couple days.

    34. Re:No, it's all going to hell again by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      In the case of humans, we invest in infrastructure and then as long as we have a choice, are extremely hesitant to tear it down and rebuild with something better. Even if we see other, newer places, are leaving us behind.

      More like, we're afraid of the other getting one over on us during the rebuild phase.

      It's not a case of "who cares about the new shiny?" It's a case of "OK, if we do X, we loose Y, and will have to fight Z again." As it turns out, the people in our society are all too willing to screw each other over if it benefits them, so the people that have won the last round are justifiably hesitant when talks of another round start cropping up.

      Burn it down and that option is no longer viable, so we move forward.

      Burn it down, and next round of infighting starts.

    35. Re: No, it's all going to hell again by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      -1? Looks like we got some jealous lovers on this site!

    36. Re:No, it's all going to hell again by luis_a_espinal · · Score: 1

      here around the suburbs of Austin there's a lot of consternation about (of all things) the number of democrats moving in

      Me thinks people who have problem with such things could move to Alabama. #conservativefirstworldproblem

    37. Re:No, it's all going to hell again by mysidia · · Score: 2

      The US is a national market, with freedom of travel a constitutional right.

      You have freedom of movement to go about your business --- travel, or the use of a vehicle, or the availability of a place for you to stay away from home (such as a Hotel lodging) is not a constitutional right - and there are various situations where you won't be able to get it. States and Municipalities technically CAN also regulate or restrict who can be the buyer of accommodations, who can rent, or who can be the buyer of a house or land, so even if you are allowed freedom of movement; that doesn't mean you will have a right to park yourself long term in whatever city or state you want, Especially not on an indian reservation and some other highly-restrictive communities, BUT in general most states are welcoming, housing shortages are rare, and as a US person, you can take up residence in Most cities if you want to and can afford it.

    38. Re: No, it's all going to hell again by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Yes. California has building regulations. I know. Crazy.

    39. Re:No, it's all going to hell again by Chibi+Merrow · · Score: 2

      Hi. Housing prices are going through the roof up here in Oregon, and there's nothing left to rent, primarily due to the huge influx of Californians. People from California move into an area, eating up all the rentals and driving up home prices, which displace the locals from that area into other areas with lower costs, and the cycle repeats.

      --
      Maxim: People cannot follow directions.
      Increases in truth directly with the length of time spent explaining them
    40. Re:No, it's all going to hell again by Ichijo · · Score: 4, Informative

      red-state is good for business (and giving attractive tax breaks)

      ...which are financed by blue states.

      That's right, the country simply could not afford to be all red states, because at some point they would run out of other people's money!

      --
      Any sufficiently unpopular but cohesive argument is indistinguishable from trolling.
    41. Re: No, it's all going to hell again by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 2, Interesting

      you are an idiot.... Texas is only blue in the large cities. Rural texas(including most of the area around those large cities) are so red the thought of a democrat running things sends locals into apoplectic shock.

      The Texas house has 95 republicans and 55 dems while the senate has 20 republicans and 11 dems.

      Gerrymandering has occurred in every state. Both dems and repubicans use it. If you do not believe me look at california senate districts in socal or the Illinois 4th congressional district. look at texas. every party since the early 1800's has used the technique. It is not new nor is it really even controversial.

    42. Re: No, it's all going to hell again by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      You can't walk on most interstate highways, freeways, etc. The constitution is cool and all, but corporations don't have much use for it. If you want freedom, go watch a football game. Be sure your bag is regulation size and clear. No liquids.

    43. Re:No, it's all going to hell again by LynnwoodRooster · · Score: 2

      Hi there, I live just South of Ventura, where the Thomas fire started, and we get to see the brown smoke to the North. So far, about 800 homes have burned. That's not a big number at all, given the affected areas (NW Ventura County/SW Santa Barbara County) have somewhere around 150,000 homes. And I just watched a new development of townhomes, about 80 units, go up within 6 months. That is just one company. It'll take probably 1 year at most to replace those homes lost. Yes, the fire is huge and yes it is terrible, but 99% of the area it's burned is basically vacant State land.

      --
      Browsing at +1 - no ACs, I ignore their posts. So refreshing!
    44. Re:No, it's all going to hell again by LynnwoodRooster · · Score: 3, Informative

      No, not just illegals. Hollywood hyped up California as a magical utopia where ... unicorns fart glitter

      See, that's the problem. It's about education. Not enough people realize that unicorn farts twinkle, they don't fart "glitter".

      --
      Browsing at +1 - no ACs, I ignore their posts. So refreshing!
    45. Re: No, it's all going to hell again by LynnwoodRooster · · Score: 1

      Someone should look at a map and realize just how BIG Texas really is. Dallas doesn't get too much in the way of hurricane activity...

      --
      Browsing at +1 - no ACs, I ignore their posts. So refreshing!
    46. Re:No, it's all going to hell again by dcw3 · · Score: 1

      Oh, and people were leaving CA long before he fires...

      https://www.charismanews.com/o...
      http://www.sacbee.com/site-ser...

      --
      Just another day in Paradise
    47. Re:No, it's all going to hell again by Austerity+Empowers · · Score: 1

      They will happily allow multi-story office towers and residential condos to be built on streets that cannot take the added traffic

      Austin's city council does not have the market cornered on this. It is incredible to me how little they think through traffic when they allow these shopping centers to be built. The "premium outlets" up north? That road was a shitshow before ikea+outlets, now it's just a train-wreck unfolding in slow motion. The worst part, is that before these shopping centers it was nothing, just empty fields and scrub brush. They could/should have seen this coming when they approved the building, and should have at least left themselves a way to expand. The only solution now is going to be massively expensive, and in response those of us local are taking our sales tax elsewhere.

      The contrast though is NYC, where you cannot put a lemonade stand down without a 6 month study and community impact statement. It seems like planning and some sort of happy medium could exist, but apparently that's utopia. Either we are impeding business or we're letting them ruin our lives.

    48. Re: No, it's all going to hell again by TheRaven64 · · Score: 2

      The Texas house has 95 republicans and 55 dems while the senate has 20 republicans and 11 dems.

      That can be explained by either a huge majority of Republicans or, as the grandparent asserts, by gerrymandering. In the 2016 Presidential elections, Clinton got 43.2%, Trump 52.2% of the vote. That doesn't sound like a huge majority for the red team, but maybe Trump was just unpopular so let's see how that differed in previous elections. 2012, Red: 57.17%, Blue 41.38%. 2008, Red 55.39%, Blue 43.63%. Sounds like it's been around 43%ish for a while.

      To put that in perspective, California voted 61.73% Blue, 31.62% Red, so is a lot more Blue than Texas is Red. In fact, of the 34 states or districts that voted Red in 2016, only 9 voted Red by a lower margin than Texas. The six reddest states (Idaho, North Dakota, Oklahoma, West Virginia, and Wyoming) all voted red by a margin of 30% or more (46.30% in Wyoming). Of the red states, Texas is one of the least red.

      That said, a Texas Democrat typically has more in common with a Texas Republican than a California Democrat.

      --
      I am TheRaven on Soylent News
    49. Re:No, it's all going to hell again by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Unfortunately, Californication has been an issue in several areas for a long time. All these people who have just sold their high-priced housing and have little real idea of what things cost in the rest of the country moving somewhere drive up the prices where they move. Worse, all these chuckle-heads moving away from California's mis-management immediately try to turn wherever they move into where they moved from, without ever thinking about why they'll end up just recreating the problems they were getting away from.

      But, as I said, not a new issue. It was a complaint in Colorado well over twenty years ago when I lived there, it's a complaint in Austin where I live now. And once they do it to the new area, they'll just pick another new one to move out and spread the rot later.

    50. Re:No, it's all going to hell again by pnutjam · · Score: 1
    51. Re:No, it's all going to hell again by pnutjam · · Score: 1

      Flinturdian, I like it!

    52. Re:No, it's all going to hell again by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      It's not really the attractive tax packages, it's that the economy of California is so much more developed it's hard to compete. Bay Area is one big company after another competing for employees and office space.

      If you can't make it in CA or NY, you try in some flyover state.

    53. Re:No, it's all going to hell again by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      But it is only temporary problem.
      No suitable employees available locally in CA that equals either offshoring or moving operations to another state.
      Then there are 2 problems in CA and one problem in "other states"
      in CA:
      - increased need for "affordable housing"(TM) because not working population will increase
          with lowered taxes at the same time
      - increased availability of not so affordable housing when occupants will move from CA
            following their jobs, gun rights etc
      in "other states":
      - decreasing number of vacancies, including those middle-high end (corresponding with price to the middle level in CA)
      - increased tax income (from companies and new residents)

      I am guessing, that CS would like to do something that Germany is trying since 2015
      take everybody (and his mother) filter those who are net gain and spread the rest as somebody else problem.
      Unfortunately they do not have such powers yet.

    54. Re:No, it's all going to hell again by ShanghaiBill · · Score: 2

      An obvious solution is to build some more houses.

    55. Re:No, it's all going to hell again by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      States and Municipalities technically CAN also regulate or restrict who can be the buyer of accommodations, who can rent, or who can be the buyer of a house or land ...

      States and municipalities absolutely cannot restrict WHO can be the buyer or renter of accommodations. They can implement building standards, and they can regulate or restrict WHERE and HOW MUCH is built. But they cannot say "Californians not allowed", or "No white people", or "No families", or "Mike Smith is forbidden", or any other such rule based on the identity of the prospective buyer.

    56. Re: No, it's all going to hell again by bobbied · · Score: 1

      Last hurricane that went close to Dallas, was a tropical depression by the time it got here and dumped a bunch of rain w/o much in the way of wind.

      --
      "File to fit, pound to insert, paint to match" - Aircraft Maintenance 101
    57. Re:No, it's all going to hell again by b0s0z0ku · · Score: 1

      Some areas restrict based on buyer's age (55+ or 62+) or on income (below 75% of area median income or whatever).

    58. Re:No, it's all going to hell again by lgw · · Score: 3, Insightful

      C'mon it's not that bad - I'm sure the homebuilders have already begun the 6-month long application process and environmental assessment needed in order to begin the 6-month long public review phase required for project approval. Heck, in just a year they'll be on to the specific reviews and approvals for actual building plans!

      --
      Socialism: a lie told by totalitarians and believed by fools.
    59. Re: No, it's all going to hell again by bobbied · · Score: 1

      How do I know this? Because I live in TX where they are building houses and apartment buildings as fast as they can throw them up.

      That seems like trouble waiting to happen. Oh wait, Harvey already did. Expect more.

      Reminds me of Homestead after Hugo. Of course, they've rebuilt, but I know a dozen people who left those communities because they were so soulless and lacking in neighborliness.

      While a lot of Huston and the low lands to the south west got hammered in places, the damage was pretty light for most of Huston for the most part. Most of the issues in Huston where flooding from all the rain, which was limited to specific areas. Most of Huston didn't have an issue once the water went down.

      --
      "File to fit, pound to insert, paint to match" - Aircraft Maintenance 101
    60. Re: No, it's all going to hell again by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      It's almost as if they think there might be an earthquake one day. Idiots.

    61. Re:No, it's all going to hell again by penandpaper · · Score: 3, Informative

      Then lower federal spending. Blue tends to be in the cities which tend to have big capital players like Silicone Valley, Hollywood, or Wallstreet which will help the state average for federal taxation. I have seen the idea about only giving federal benefits in proportion to their federal taxation but that undermines the whole point of a federal republic.

        Puerto Rico gives exactly 0 in federal taxes. Should we not send federal aid to them when a hurricane hits? Or what about Louisiana or Alabama? Ok, not during disasters.

      Do you think down-stream states (like California) do not benefit from the Bureau of Reclamation helping to manage water in upstream states? Do you think states that have big agriculture, like California, benefit from science to study the effect of wild fires and local pollinators done by the USGS ( I wonder how the science done in Idaho during their annual fire season will help California during this one)? How many federal initiatives are you willing to restrict in various states because some states do not have Silicone Valley to pick up the tab? Do you really think the urban centers do not benefit from from that disproportionate ratio? Those are just two that I know of personally.

      Are you going to limit the federal unemployment of someone that has paid taxes their whole working life because they live in a red state?

      Personally, I find it to the credit of the Founding Fathers that they were able to predict the largest division the nation would face and were able to create a federal republic to service that division. The urban and rural divide should not be widened because you think you do not benefit from federal spending in other parts of the country. If you don't like the spending of the federal government then you should be arguing to lower that spending not be vindictive to the individual based on where they live.

    62. Re:No, it's all going to hell again by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Those requirements are not on municipalities or states, but rather on specific developments, and they are put in place not by municipalities or states, but rather by the management of those developments.

    63. Re: No, it's all going to hell again by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Nobody is leaving California due to "mismanagement". That's just Fox News patting its viewers on the back for being so good at voting.

    64. Re:No, it's all going to hell again by SScorpio · · Score: 1

      They are, but there just tiny. Almost like a mobile home one would find in a trailer park.

    65. Re:No, it's all going to hell again by AdamStarks · · Score: 2

      Look at your article: the Red State we're talking about, Texas, gives more than it takes (i.e. same column as California). So while I applaud your greater point, this isn't really the place for it...

    66. Re:No, it's all going to hell again by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      California logically needs more quality housing stock in self-sufficient, walkable communities; there is a large population that lives here until they have kids, then move "back home." This is a natural situation where renting works, but condos are fine too.

      How do you build more quality housing close to where people work when in the areas where people work there aren't huge tracts of land waiting for development. One can't exactly knock down thousands of single-family homes to build high density condos.

    67. Re: No, it's all going to hell again by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Yeah, they're leaving because California is such a nice place for middle class people to live.

    68. Re:No, it's all going to hell again by stinerman · · Score: 1

      There are literally people commuting through Lake county where I live to get from where they live in Mendocino county to where they work in Napa county, or even the hind end of Sonoma, and that was true even before the fires up here.

      I've never understood that.

      My commute is 5 minutes each way, and I'd rather it be faster. I mean I'm from Ohio so I've never had to choose to move out of state, but if I had to commute that far for a job I'd just move to somewhere where I wouldn't have to.

      I've never been to California (except a layover at LAX), and I hear it's nice, but there's no way it's that nice.

    69. Re: No, it's all going to hell again by houghi · · Score: 1

      That is because the cake is a lie.

      --
      Don't fight for your country, if your country does not fight for you.
    70. Re:No, it's all going to hell again by thegarbz · · Score: 1

      Then lower federal spending.

      Except every time someone attempts to cut anything significant the reds then veto that idea on account of the local jobs that service supports.

    71. Re:No, it's all going to hell again by Ichijo · · Score: 1

      Puerto Rico gives exactly 0 in federal taxes. Should we not send federal aid to them when a hurricane hits?

      We absolutely should send them federal aid, and then we should bill their insurance just like the paramedics do and the way firefighters ought to. Having such insurance should be a prerequisite to joining the union, except we have no formal way to kick out a state if they don't follow the rules. In that way, the USA is kind of like a roach motel--you can check in but you can't check out!

      Do you think down-stream states (like California) do not benefit from the Bureau of Reclamation helping to manage water in upstream states?

      Managing inter-state resources is the proper role of a federal government. Paying to build inter-state infrastructure projects is not.

      Are you going to limit the federal unemployment of someone that has paid taxes their whole working life because they live in a red state?

      That's kind of what you deserve for paying into a Ponzi scheme. But I see your point, and that is one reason to support a Basic Income.

      If you don't like the spending of the federal government then you should be arguing to lower that spending not be vindictive to the individual based on where they live.

      Please see my other comment about how governments rob from the inner-city poor and give to the suburban rich (if that isn't a good reason for vindictiveness, than what is?), and how subsidizing the suburban lifestyle is unsustainable and creates an economic mess. "The trouble with Socialism is that eventually you run out of other people's money." --Margaret Thatcher

      --
      Any sufficiently unpopular but cohesive argument is indistinguishable from trolling.
    72. Re: No, it's all going to hell again by Actually,+I+do+RTFA · · Score: 1

      Most of Huston didn't have an issue once the water went down.

      Is that like how most of Florida didn't have an issue once the hurricane passed?

      --
      Your ad here. Ask me how!
    73. Re:No, it's all going to hell again by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Except that is not a valid argument. Do you know what they include when they give those wonderful charts showing "red" states as living off the federal government? A hell of a lot of things that the entire country uses, like Army, Navy, Marine Corps, Air Force, National Guard, Coast Guard, CIA, FBI, etc etc etc. Those all get counted as "living off the tax dollars". Look at Hampton Roads in Virginia. In that one relatively small region there are 15 major military bases and installations. Many of those physically can't be anywhere else. Newport News alone gets counted because of the shipyard that builds the entire country's carriers and a giant portion of the subs. Naval Base Norfolk is the size of a city. It is the largest military base in the world. Guess what is in the majority of these "red" states? A lot of things that serve to protect the country and its interests. Continuing on... a lot of things in Virginia are there because of D.C. Most spills into Arlington and Virginia, not Maryland.

      This is the same crap anti-gun people use when they love to compare stats versus other countries who do not count suicide in their numbers like the US does. It is disingenuous at best, outright lying at worst.

    74. Re:No, it's all going to hell again by Ichijo · · Score: 1

      Yes, Texas is a notable exception. Are there any other self-sufficient red states?

      --
      Any sufficiently unpopular but cohesive argument is indistinguishable from trolling.
    75. Re:No, it's all going to hell again by b0s0z0ku · · Score: 1

      (1) California has a huge military presence, and it still pays into DC.
      (2) We don't use the military. It uses us. The military is mostly a boondoggle and jobs program that uses US and pays us back in dead and maimed humans. The military uses us. We'd be better off cutting spending 50% and spending the money on pure research, infrastructure, and education. It's not 1930 where the country with the most battleships wins the way.
      (3) CIA/FBI? Stop jailing 1% of our population and meddling in other countries' affairs, and they can be much smaller.

    76. Re:No, it's all going to hell again by Mashiki · · Score: 1

      You mean buy condos that are 300sqft, and cost $250k-785k right? Cause that's already what's happening in a lot of coastal cities with a very dense population.

      --
      Om, nomnomnom...
    77. Re:No, it's all going to hell again by ShanghaiBill · · Score: 1

      They are, but there just tiny. Almost like a mobile home one would find in a trailer park.

      That is almost certainly because of some stupid zoning regulation. In the absence of some prohibition, builders tend to build what people want to buy.

    78. Re:No, it's all going to hell again by ShanghaiBill · · Score: 1

      You mean buy condos that are 300sqft, and cost $250k-785k right?

      There are three solutions to high housing prices:
      1. Government price controls and rationing. This has an extremely poor track record.
      2. Decrease demand, by sterilizing or shooting people, or maybe bring back smallpox.
      3. Increase supply by building more houses to meet the demand, creating jobs and economic growth.

      Americans have a knee jerk resistance to #3, partly out of self interest (current residents benefit from high prices), and partly out of a belief that actually building or accomplishing anything is wrong or evil. In SF, 95% of building permits were rejected last year ... and most builders didn't even bother to apply.

    79. Re:No, it's all going to hell again by thrich81 · · Score: 1

      Dallas -- not a great example for your argument. Dallas is quite cosmopolitan and politically blue, as are all the big cities in Texas (have to get down to Fort Worth to get to a big Texas city which doesn't have a Democratic mayor). And it has all the big city advantages you mentioned if you count DFW airport as the 'port'. But your overall argument is only strengthened by Dallas, Houston, Austin -- big blue cities with booming economies. Ironic that the conservatives who gripe so much about Austin's politics are fine with living in it or nearby to take advantage of its economy, instead of taking their talents out to the many deep red areas in the state.

    80. Re:No, it's all going to hell again by pr0fessor · · Score: 1

      I also notice that most of those red states have smaller populations and are farming states with of course the exception of california who is the highest producer monetarily (because their stuff is expensive they don't really produce more).

    81. Re:No, it's all going to hell again by jafac · · Score: 1

      It's not really about rents though.

      It's about employers refusing to pay workers enough to pay the rents. Period.

      I recently turned down a job at a university - their offer came in at $25,000 less than what I am currently making. Maybe a marijuana field near their HR dept caught fire and a smoke cloud drifted over? Can't think of any other explanation, but I'm wanting to save for retirement. Not sell my house and move into a trailer.

      If rents or housing prices go up - income has to go up. Or your workers are leaving.

      --

      These are my friends, See how they glisten. See this one shine, how he smiles in the light.
    82. Re:No, it's all going to hell again by drinkypoo · · Score: 1

      Hi there, I live just South of Ventura, where the Thomas fire started, and we get to see the brown smoke to the North. So far, about 800 homes have burned. That's not a big number at all, given the affected areas (NW Ventura County/SW Santa Barbara County) have somewhere around 150,000 homes.

      We'll see how many homes burn in this fire, but there will be more fires. We have no plan for making it be otherwise. We lost thousands of homes up here in nocal recently.

      --
      "You're right," Fisheye says. "I should have set it on 'whip' or 'chop.'"
    83. Re:No, it's all going to hell again by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Lots of Californians escaping California for Colorado as well.

    84. Re:No, it's all going to hell again by b0s0z0ku · · Score: 1

      Academia typically underpays vs industry but offers other perks/recognition as compensation.

    85. Re:No, it's all going to hell again by b0s0z0ku · · Score: 1

      You mean, being exiled to Colorado and other flyover states :)

    86. Re: No, it's all going to hell again by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      It will come for you soon as well.

    87. Re:No, it's all going to hell again by drinkypoo · · Score: 1

      I've never been to California (except a layover at LAX), and I hear it's nice, but there's no way it's that nice.

      When you couple the endless feeling of living in a picture-book with provably the nicest weather in the country, it's easy to see why some people place a premium on life in California.

      To be fair though, I think a lot of people are just kidding themselves. Perhaps you're familiar with the quote "Socialism never took root in America because the poor see themselves not as an exploited proletariat but as temporarily embarrassed millionaires." I think most of those people are sure that just around the next corner, they're going to get into the position to be crapping on everyone else, instead of being crapped upon.

      --
      "You're right," Fisheye says. "I should have set it on 'whip' or 'chop.'"
    88. Re:No, it's all going to hell again by drinkypoo · · Score: 1

      For scale, LA has approximately 100,000 hotel rooms.

      People can't afford to live in those, so it's irrelevant.

      Two medium-sized high rises in Manhattan have more housing units than those fires have destroyed.

      And if you could build high-rises in California, you wouldn't have the housing problems we had already. 1,000 homes in a market where there's already a deficit is going to make a big difference, especially since we already lost thousands of homes up here in nocal, and we can expect to have more big fires coming in future years.

      --
      "You're right," Fisheye says. "I should have set it on 'whip' or 'chop.'"
    89. Re: No, it's all going to hell again by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      you are an idiot.... Texas is only blue in the large cities.

      Nope. You should look at some of the rural breakdowns. Especially along the border.

      Rural texas(including most of the area around those large cities) are so red the thought of a democrat running things sends locals into apoplectic shock.

      Well, they'd better pray that the Affordable Care Act doesn't get repealed.

      The Texas house has 95 republicans and 55 dems while the senate has 20 republicans and 11 dems.

      And both have been subjected to court-ordered redistricting that's currently under a stay from the Supreme Court pending a hearing. See Evenwel v. Abbott.

      Gerrymandering has occurred in every state. Both dems and repubicans use it. If you do not believe me look at california senate districts in socal or the Illinois 4th congressional district. look at texas. every party since the early 1800's has used the technique.

      Making an example of California is a poor choice, as that state has an independent commission (that is not the legislature) to set districts (with an equal split of Republicans and Democrats with independent members) AND the Jungle Primary where the top two candidates move to the final election (meaning that it is possible for two Democrats or two Republicans or two Others to go against each other), so you're probably better off choosing Maryland, which actually does have a case before the Supreme Court itself. Gill v. Whitford, look it up.

      I swear, people like you don't know how bad your arguments are.

      It is not new nor is it really even controversial.

      New? Nobody said it was, though I will point out the Re-districting at the behest of Tom Delay is relatively new. Controversial? It absolutely is, there are no less than 4 pending Supreme Court decisions (aforementioned Texas, North Carolina, Wisconsin, and Maryland)

    90. Re:No, it's all going to hell again by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      As long as you don't drink water it's awesome!

    91. Re:No, it's all going to hell again by drinkypoo · · Score: 1

      Building a house doesn't necessarily take that long; if you don't have a million local building regulations to comply with

      I see you are unfamiliar with California. Here in Lake it costs more in permits and mandatory connection fees to build a single-bedroom home than it does to buy the materials. No municipality wants anyone to build small homes any more, but a lot of the homes that were lost fit that description. A lot of towns need higher population densities to function, so there is actually good reason for that, but this comment is already busy enough.

      Some towns will fast-track the permit process in one way or another, but in many places the inspection and permitting process was already overtaxed and even those areas which want to permit properties quickly and cheaply and are demonstrating this to be true via legislation are having trouble physically doing so.

      --
      "You're right," Fisheye says. "I should have set it on 'whip' or 'chop.'"
    92. Re: No, it's all going to hell again by nitehawk214 · · Score: 1

      Current residents don't necessarily benefit from higher prices. It makes taxes go up on people that don't want to move, and it makes rent skyrocket for people that can't afford to own.

      It also limits mobility. People that would like to upgrade get priced out and stuck in a home that is too small or in an inconvenient location.

      --
      I'm a good cook. I'm a fantastic eater. - Steven Brust
    93. Re: No, it's all going to hell again by nitehawk214 · · Score: 1

      Anymore strawmen you want to have a swipe at?

      --
      I'm a good cook. I'm a fantastic eater. - Steven Brust
    94. Re: No, it's all going to hell again by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Someone should look at a map and realize just how BIG Texas really is. Dallas doesn't get too much in the way of hurricane activity...

      You're confusing hasn't recently with does not ever. You should look at a map, and see the weather patterns for Hurricanes. I suppose you COULD count yourself safe in Amarillo, but really, Amarillo?

      Of course, you'll want to look at the other potential problems that a rush of ill-conceived slap-dash built housing can cause, especially since there are other weather disasters to be concerned about.

    95. Re:No, it's all going to hell again by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      That’d be second hand information...

    96. Re:No, it's all going to hell again by kaatochacha · · Score: 1

      That is the dumbest thing I've read all day. In summation:
      1) people leaving is not a problem: wrong. Who does low level work? robots? illegal immigrants living in alleys?
      2) there is not rental crisis, rent has merely kept up with inflation: wrong. unless inflation is 25% yearly.
      3) It is just people complaining or just don't want to spend time with a job that pays what living the LA lifestyle requires. wrong. Homeless numbers are up because PEOPLE CAN"T AFFORD HOMES. See number one for the result of large numbers leaving.

    97. Re:No, it's all going to hell again by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      I've already been seeing trickle effects in Nebraska from the California housing shortage. My wife has a friend who moved to Colorado from Nebraska three years ago because the friend has family out there and could stay with them until she saved up enough money for a down payment on a house. She figured it would be a year before she could save up the money, and then she would move into a house with her family. Three years later they were still living with the original family members they were supposed to be "temporarily" living with. Why? It turns out that a lot of people in California were getting fed up with housing prices and were moving to Colorado because it was comparatively cheap, not too far away, and had a lot of the same culture and amenities they were looking for. The result? Housing prices in Colorado keep creeping up as demand outpaces supply, and my wife's friend found that her purchasing power was building up much slower than expected. It built up so slowly that this coming year she's actually moving right back to the very city she left three years ago in Nebraska because she can get so much more for the money she saved here and won't have to scrape by to be able to even afford a modest house payment.

    98. Re: No, it's all going to hell again by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      But most US houses these days appear to be built by the first two little pigs. Barely built to last a century.

    99. Re:No, it's all going to hell again by Pfhorrest · · Score: 1

      [T]here is a large population that lives here until they have kids, then move "back home."

      What really sucks is for those of us for whom this is home. It's a lifelong struggle for me not to be forced out of the place I was born and raised and educated where my job and family and friends and loved ones all are, just because a bunch of rich people from far away want to live here which makes living here unaffordable for people like me who were born here. There is no "home" to go back to. I haven't had a home my entire adult life, and it's increasingly unlikely that I ever will. I could move to what may as well be another country, some place that I will hate and be miserable, and buy a "home" there, but it still wouldn't be home.

      --
      -Forrest Cameranesi, Geek of all Trades
      "I am Sam. Sam I am. I do not like trolls, flames, or spam."
    100. Re: No, it's all going to hell again by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Why do you have the colours the wrong way round? Everywhere else red = commies, blue = tories.

    101. Re: No, it's all going to hell again by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      You just summarized my job. I am putting the barrel into my mouth. I am closing my mouth and squeezing the tr

    102. Re: No, it's all going to hell again by Nidi62 · · Score: 1

      I've always wondered what's going to happen to those 55+ "active adult" communities in 30 years when all the original owners are dead or in nursing homes.

      --
      The only thing necessary for evil to triumph is for it to be pitted against a slightly greater evil
    103. Re: No, it's all going to hell again by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Except of course, for the consequences of said water deluges. But hey, at least their roofs are being put up by...consistently Spanish-speaking Americans?

      Look man, you want to live in a neighborhood with one of those new-built homes, make sure you have instructions in your will for a drive-in funeral home so I don't have to get out of the car, thanks.

    104. Re: No, it's all going to hell again by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Except in California prop 13 limits the amount your property tax can go up each year, so you have people paying 3k a year on a house that be 10k a year if they had just purchased it

    105. Re:No, it's all going to hell again by Uberbah · · Score: 1

      the Red State we're talking about, Texas, gives more than it takes

      Which is the only red state to do so, and a good chunk of the tax revenue is driven by federal spending (NASA, military bases, border patrol). So while I applaud the misdirection....

    106. Re:No, it's all going to hell again by Uberbah · · Score: 1

      We absolutely should send them federal aid, and then we should bill their insurance just like the paramedics do and the way firefighters ought to. Having such insurance should be a prerequisite to joining the union, except we have no formal way to kick out a state if they don't follow the rules. In that way, the USA is kind of like a roach motel--you can check in but you can't check out!

      Good idea. You can take it out of the trillion dollars the U.S. should give Puerto Rico as reparations for colonialism.

    107. Re:No, it's all going to hell again by AdamStarks · · Score: 1

      Again, look at the actual article Ichijo posted: Texas is clearly not the only Red State in that category. And again, he was replying to a comment specifically about the economic climate in Texas.

      The whole Red States as Welfare States thing is totally worthy of discussion, but is strange to bring up in response to a comment that is soley and specifically about a state which lies outside that category. So while I applaud the shoehorning...

    108. Re:No, it's all going to hell again by MSTCrow5429 · · Score: 1

      Indian reservations are technically sovereign pseudo-states. They don't operate under the same legal aegis of the rest of the US.

      --
      Slashdot: Playing Favorites Since 1997
    109. Re:No, it's all going to hell again by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      If you are a home builder in Calif. one of the many issues you face is shortage or qualified workers to build the houses. I've also read that is true of America in general. I also read some months ago that on of the reasons for this is the low wages. As in, if you want to attract more workers, pay more money. But, the employer class has been stuck with the mantra "low wages, low wages, low wages..." for at least 30 years. Yes, it will add $X,XXX or even $XX,XXX to the price of a house, which is what? 3%, 11%, 0.2%
      Comments, please.

    110. Re:No, it's all going to hell again by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      "master planned communities" with thousands of single family homes"
      I hate those place, like Irvine, CA. Where you are allowed to paint your house any color you want, as long as it is the list of 12 approved shades of beige. (The is generally true, although I probably have the number of shades and some details wrong).
      To me, the major problem with planned communities is the lack of diversity in architecture, businesses, imagination--perfect for Stepford wives. Many of the news planned communities in Southern Calif. also lack diversity in businesses. Shopping centers tend to be huge, often whole swaths miles long on 8 lane streets. And all, all the businesses are large national chains or regional franchises. No room for a quirky 800 square foot curio shoppe owned by one person.
      Conclusion: when businesses colonize the culture of a society, you get a vacuous hell.

    111. Re: No, it's all going to hell again by drinkypoo · · Score: 1

      Current residents don't necessarily benefit from higher prices. It makes taxes go up on people that don't want to move

      Those people should want to move. They are going to have to face reality, because it is inexorable. Anyone who doesn't want to have to move should be fighting for negative population growth, and minimal economic output, because anything else leads to civilization arriving in your front yard eventually.

      As you age, you need more of the trappings of civilization just to survive. The trick is to buy a home someplace where enough of it will arrive as you need it, but you won't wind up on a Waze-designated thoroughfare.

      --
      "You're right," Fisheye says. "I should have set it on 'whip' or 'chop.'"
    112. Re:No, it's all going to hell again by drinkypoo · · Score: 1

      Indian reservations are technically sovereign pseudo-states. They don't operate under the same legal aegis of the rest of the US.

      That's why, if you have a choice, you should never work in indian gaming. If you're not a tribal member, you're fucked if your workplace conditions go south. I got pushed into a back room with a color laser printer. If a normal business had done that to me I could have OSHA'd their ass.

      --
      "You're right," Fisheye says. "I should have set it on 'whip' or 'chop.'"
    113. Re:No, it's all going to hell again by drinkypoo · · Score: 1

      Good idea. You can take it out of the trillion dollars the U.S. should give Puerto Rico as reparations for colonialism.

      Fine with me. We can pay black people reparations for slavery, while we're at it. I think the deal was supposed to be forty acres and a mule, right? I can't speak for any black people, but I know I'd be thrilled with that right now.

      --
      "You're right," Fisheye says. "I should have set it on 'whip' or 'chop.'"
    114. Re:No, it's all going to hell again by drinkypoo · · Score: 1

      Which is the only red state to do so, and a good chunk of the tax revenue is driven by federal spending (NASA, military bases, border patrol). So while I applaud the misdirection....

      And most of the rest of it is from oil, and the remainder from tech. The oil is made profitable by a variety of subsidies, and the tech is made possible by the internet. And the biggest tech company in TX by far is (depending on how you count) either IBM, headquartered not in TX but in NY, and Apple, headquartered in CA. (or Ireland, if you like.) The biggest "tech company" HQ'd in TX is Dell, with a measly 13,000 employees compared to IBM's almost 400,000 worldwide. (Does Dell actually make anything besides case bezels, or do they just put their name on stuff like Viewsonic?)

      --
      "You're right," Fisheye says. "I should have set it on 'whip' or 'chop.'"
    115. Re: No, it's all going to hell again by drinkypoo · · Score: 1

      As usual, slashdot is the wrong place to ask this, and google is the right one. Maybe you would like this article on the subject.

      --
      "You're right," Fisheye says. "I should have set it on 'whip' or 'chop.'"
    116. Re:No, it's all going to hell again by drinkypoo · · Score: 1

      I hate to burst your little bubble, but folks are not leaving California because Hollywood is on fire...They are leaving because it's too expensive.

      There's this concept which explains much of economics which you may not have heard of called "supply and demand"

      People are not leaving California because fire is scary. Neither that nor earthquakes have been sufficient to deter them from invading both en masse and piecemeal. They are leaving because they cannot afford to live here. They cannot afford to live here because there are not enough homes. The fires have exacerbated this situation because they have reduced the supply of housing, which was already inadequate to meet the demand. This was true before airbnb, which had already literally doubled rents in some regions.

      I'm not inherently against gentrification; I rather like many of the results, in fact. Pretending that it doesn't have substantial negative effects is childish. Imagining that homes being converted into smoke won't affect the housing market is ridiculous. It's not just this fire, although this fire will have an impact. It's the last fire, and the next fire. It would take an absolute miracle for more of this not to happen in California. California's history is one of repeated fires. Pick any random little old town in California, most of it has probably burned down two or three times back in the way back. The local natives knew how to handle this situation, but their yearly intentional burns weren't their entire strategy. They would physically pick up and move their people between summer and winter homes, which was what made setting everything on fire viable. Today, we could do the same thing by living in trailers, or underground; they rebuilt their house every year, because it was simple enough to do that.

      If we're going to live in such close proximity to forests and not burn them intelligently, then we must build houses which are not flammable. I read article after article about the subject of how California made the problem worse, and how we can do things about it by cutting firebreaks or by not living close to forests, but we can also build homes that won't go up like a torch when some burning bits of charcoal are distributed onto the roof by the incredible winds which can be produced by a forest fire. Permitting flammable roofs in fire country is insane, evil, or both. There's simply no way around that.

      --
      "You're right," Fisheye says. "I should have set it on 'whip' or 'chop.'"
    117. Re: No, it's all going to hell again by drinkypoo · · Score: 1

      Of course, you'll want to look at the other potential problems that a rush of ill-conceived slap-dash built housing can cause, especially since there are other weather disasters to be concerned about.

      Well it's floodin' down in Texas, all of the telephone lines are down
      Well it's floodin' down in Texas, the zoning laws will make you drown

      --
      "You're right," Fisheye says. "I should have set it on 'whip' or 'chop.'"
    118. Re:No, it's all going to hell again by drinkypoo · · Score: 1

      All we need is for the next big quake to slide Cali into the ocean and all our problems will be solved.

      It's the wrong kind of fault. It's conceivable that enough of California will sink due to aquifer depletion combined with quake activity that much of it will wind up underwater when coupled with sea level rise, though.

      --
      "You're right," Fisheye says. "I should have set it on 'whip' or 'chop.'"
    119. Re: No, it's all going to hell again by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Yeahb...of course.... the advanced nations that don't include gun suicides...all like, 50 suicides each year. Wow, that skews the figures soooo much !! I mean, if they included the gun suicides that'd bring the total gun deaths up to like, wow...a hundred or so !!!!!

      USA > 36,000 dead every single year.

      Shit, no wonder you get called a "guntard". It really is developmental retardation with you people, isn't it ?

    120. Re:No, it's all going to hell again by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Again, look at the actual article Ichijo posted: Texas is clearly not the only Red State in that category. And again, he was replying to a comment specifically about the economic climate in Texas.

      The whole Red States as Welfare States thing is totally worthy of discussion, but is strange to bring up in response to a comment that is soley and specifically about a state which lies outside that category. So while I applaud the shoehorning...

      Actually, Texas is also dependent on the other states, primarily due to its petroleum and other fossil fuel exports. Same with North Dakota. That boom up there? Desperately needs the rest of the country, if not the world, for it. Sometimes things can be misleading. Not as bad as say, Alaska, perhaps, or the oil satraps of the Persian Gulf, but a significant factor.

      Same as with a Gold Rush, though slightly longer, but still, a risk. There's a reason they need to build up their wind portfolio.

    121. Re:No, it's all going to hell again by MightyYar · · Score: 1

      My comment had nothing to do with affordability, or the feasibility of building large structures in California. I was simply pointing out the scale of the problem and showing that it was a local problem that will not affect national markets.

      --
      W..w..W - Willy Waterloo washes Warren Wiggins who is washing Waldo Woo.
    122. Re:No, it's all going to hell again by bobbied · · Score: 1

      I don't think the fires are an important factor here. There are not enough homes because the government and physical reality have prevented them from being built, not because a few thousand upper class houses burned down.

      Face it, LA is totally built, completely beyond reasonable limits and available water supplies. Government rules prevent affordable housing to be built due to zoning and occupancy regulations. The large metropolitan areas of California are generally all the same story, we have no more water, we can build no more housing on new land because there isn't any land or zoning laws prevent building on new land or upgrading existing housing for higher occupancy.

      Sure the fires don't help, if you are a millionaire living in an upper class neighborhood near the places that burn, but this is temporary and very limited given the total number of homes, even with the current set of fires, These houses are largely insured and will be quickly rebuilt so the effect on supply will be pretty sort lived.

      The problem with housing costs is a local and state government creation, where supply has been severely limited by regulations. Some necessary regulations, some not so necessary ones.

      --
      "File to fit, pound to insert, paint to match" - Aircraft Maintenance 101
    123. Re:No, it's all going to hell again by drinkypoo · · Score: 1

      My comment had nothing to do with affordability, or the feasibility of building large structures in California. I was simply pointing out the scale of the problem and showing that it was a local problem that will not affect national markets.

      And I was pointing out that fires in California are already affecting national markets, and that the problem is only expected to intensify. So in short, no, and also no.

      --
      "You're right," Fisheye says. "I should have set it on 'whip' or 'chop.'"
    124. Re:No, it's all going to hell again by SScorpio · · Score: 1

      Google tiny homes and look at all the hipsters. It's a bunch of people trying to convince themselves they aren't living in a mobile home.

    125. Re:No, it's all going to hell again by MightyYar · · Score: 1

      How are California wild fires affecting the national market?

      --
      W..w..W - Willy Waterloo washes Warren Wiggins who is washing Waldo Woo.
    126. Re: No, it's all going to hell again by butchersong · · Score: 1

      That is a nice story but the fact is that "red" was associated with "commie" and given that news networks were basically 95% democrat leaning, it seems a stretch to assume the current color scheme is due to anything other than a desire to paint "your team" in the best possible light. Democrat reporters, democrats get labeled blue.

    127. Re: No, it's all going to hell again by butchersong · · Score: 1

      Ah, not 50... more like 21,386 gun suicides a year in 2014. https://www.cdc.gov/nchs/fasta...

    128. Re:No, it's all going to hell again by drinkypoo · · Score: 1

      How are California wild fires affecting the national market?

      Do you want me to hold your dick for you while you piss, too? I'm not explaining it a fourth or fifth time, whatever it is now.

      --
      "You're right," Fisheye says. "I should have set it on 'whip' or 'chop.'"
    129. Re: No, it's all going to hell again by ahodgson · · Score: 1

      The first waves of millennials will be over 60 by then.

    130. Re: No, it's all going to hell again by ahodgson · · Score: 1

      Almost 2/3 of those are in fact suicides. Look it up, you might learn something.

    131. Re:No, it's all going to hell again by MightyYar · · Score: 1

      Yeah, put up or shut up. You have no evidence no matter how good you think you are at 'splainin.

      I actually Googled thinking you might have some idea what you are talking about, but no - the total loses in the north account for approximately 6 months of typical new building construction in the bay area. It will certainly run prices up locally, but the idea that 6000 bay area diaspora can have a measurable effect on the national market is just absurd.

      --
      W..w..W - Willy Waterloo washes Warren Wiggins who is washing Waldo Woo.
    132. Re: No, it's all going to hell again by kenh · · Score: 1

      Florida has a similar appraisal system - houses are re-assessed when they sell, this helps residents living on a fixed income stay in their homes, they aren't taxed-out of their home as values go up.

      --
      Ken
  2. Probably true by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0, Insightful

    The number of renters is decreasing. Coincidentally, the number of homeless people seemed to increase by an almost identical amount.

    1. Re: Probably true by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Hear hear.

  3. In NY by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    I'd vote for Jimmy McMillan. Let me put it that way.....

    1. Re:In NY by PrimaryConsult · · Score: 1

      The rent is just too damn high...

    2. Re:In NY by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      The rent is just too damn high...

      There it is!

  4. Millennials having kids by rfengr · · Score: 4, Funny

    The millennials are having kids, and finding out that hip loft or apartment in the inner city, along with it’s school district, ain’t all it’s cracked up to be. They are fleeing to the suburbs. Soon they’ll be ditching the Feel the Bern shirts and voting Republican.

    1. Re:Millennials having kids by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Then they find out the Republicans have gutted the school budgets and the schools in the suburbs are crap as well. But at least they spend 2-3 hours a day in traffic listening to AM propaganda getting angrier and angrier.

    2. Re:Millennials having kids by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1

      As a Millennial/Gen Xer (it depends on which arbitrary year you use as a cut off, 1980 or 1982) I remained in the suburbs with my spouse knowing we'd be popping out some kids. That said, even in the suburbs we can barely afford it (we are a two STEM degree household each with a decade of good solid work under our belts) and were priced right out of the neighborhood we wanted to be in. I personally cannot see how voting Republican will change my situation any and they tend not to align with my ideals, so I am not sure what your comment has to do with anything.

    3. Re:Millennials having kids by aaarrrgggh · · Score: 2

      C'mon... do you really have to piss on everyone's Monday morning...?

      Of course you are correct; kids change the dynamic.

    4. Re:Millennials having kids by Baron_Yam · · Score: 1

      >Soon theyâ(TM)ll be ditching the Feel the Bern shirts and voting Republican.

      "If you're a conservative before 25 you have no heart. If you're liberal after 35 you have no brain."

      It's too old, and there are too many variants to attribute that quote correctly. I think it's a false dichotomy anyway; there are a LOT of social issues on which you might have opinions, and it seems extremely unlikely they're all going to fall into the same camp (whichever it may be).

      I'm not particularly keen on the left OR right sides of modern Western politics, as both will put ideology over reality at the drop of a hat.

      As a general rule (an unresearched, unscientific gut-feeling kind of rule!), people do seem to get more conservative as they age. I think it's fear - fear of losing what they have accrued, fear of a lifetime of experience becoming less relevant as they age, and an unwillingness to re-examine things they think they got figured out decades prior.

    5. Re: Millennials having kids by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1

      No, not fear, it's experience.

    6. Re:Millennials having kids by b0s0z0ku · · Score: 1

      The irony is that many "inner city" schools are better than schools in affordable subBURPs these days. To live in a 'burp with good schools, you'll end up paying as much (or nearly so) as for living in the city.

    7. Re: Millennials having kids by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      This - you eventually figure out that the government is not your friend (or your parent).

    8. Re: Millennials having kids by b0s0z0ku · · Score: 1

      Until you're ready for social security and Medicare, at least. Then you'll scream and yell for entitlements.

    9. Re:Millennials having kids by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Oh, you are so cute with how wrong you are.

      The quality of a local public school is directly proportional to the demographics of the school. Neither funding nor location matter to outcomes as much as demographics.

    10. Re:Millennials having kids by The+Cynical+Critic · · Score: 2

      Soon they’ll be ditching the Feel the Bern shirts and voting Republican.

      My understanding is that this is mostly just a misconception based the republican supporter base being skewed towards old people because of to the way younger generations tend to be more progressive than their parents. People don't start voting republican when they get older, no, old people just vote republican more often because they're on the whole more conservative than their children are or will ever be.

      I doubt anything will happen because of this except the 'burbs becoming more liberal and republican supporter bases being pushed even further away from urban centers (where democrats already reign supreme, thou with some exceptions).

      --
      "Why should I want to make anything up? Life's bad enough as it is without wanting to invent any more of it."
    11. Re:Millennials having kids by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1

      As a general rule (an unresearched, unscientific gut-feeling kind of rule!), people do seem to get more conservative as they age.

      People tend to become more conservative once they have accrued things that they'd like to conserve. Also water is wet and rocks are hard.

    12. Re:Millennials having kids by b0s0z0ku · · Score: 1

      As I said, 'burps with good schools ain't cheap.

      Demographics don't matter as much as you think -- the problem is that school administrators in many white bred 'burps think that people of color can't achieve. They're tracked in lesser classes and that becomes a self-fulfilling prophecy.

    13. Re: Millennials having kids by goose-incarnated · · Score: 3, Insightful

      Until you're ready for social security and Medicare, at least. Then you'll scream and yell for entitlements.

      It's not an entitlement if you paid for it, ya moron.

      --
      I'm a minority race. Save your vitriol for white people.
    14. Re:Millennials having kids by Baron_Yam · · Score: 2, Interesting

      >People tend to become more conservative once they have accrued things that they'd like to conserve. Also water is wet and rocks are hard.

      Which shows a sad lack of empathy in both directions - when younger, a lack of respect for people who have worked to own things, when older, a lack of respect for those who want to own things. And it seems to get more extreme when the younger folks feel entitled and demand the previous generation just give them things they haven't earned, and the older generation wants to hoard resources that they've apparently forgotten were provided to them and helped them get where they are.

      But the average person being a selfish hypocrite is also one of those 'wet water, hard rocks' things, isn't it?

    15. Re: Millennials having kids by b0s0z0ku · · Score: 1

      Sure, but the Republicants lump them in as "entitlements."

    16. Re:Millennials having kids by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      I'm curious, how old are you? 16? You really think the hippy, free love generation of the 60s who are the baby boomers of today were just more conservative as kids? If anything I think todays kids are more conservative than the kids of the 60s.

    17. Re:Millennials having kids by ScentCone · · Score: 0

      I think it's fear - fear of losing what they have accrued

      No, it's some experience and wisdom - and realizing where prosperity comes from. As you get older, you realize that it doesn't come from the government, it comes from producing it. Being old enough to have some perspective teaches you that the prosperity pie isn't of a fixed size. That those who want to make a living being the government middleman who carves up the pie and distributes it in exchange for power have a vested interest in trying to fool inexperienced younger people into thinking that the only reason they're not more prosperous yet is because someone else is, instead. That's the central thesis of lefty politics, and it's the false premise upon which a hundred million people died in the last century's misadventures in utopian collectivism, which always leads to collectivism by force. Older people have a better sense of the longer view, of causality, and history. They get it. And more of them drift towards a world view that pushes back against what they know to be a hugely destructive force.

      This isn't about conserving what they've accrued. It's about conserving the engine of prosperity.

      --
      Don't disappoint your bird dog. Go to the range.
    18. Re:Millennials having kids by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Yep nibbers are dumb as rocks ... violent and lazy too. Aztekka zooters are just violent. When did the manifest and obvious mental inequality of races smash yo face ? Eyes open libcom or palsy you need a postcard ?

    19. Re:Millennials having kids by b0s0z0ku · · Score: 5, Insightful

      Government regulation and standards allow for prosperity.

      Public (or semipublic) health insurance means that employers can be free to do whatever they do, not be benefits managers. It means that employees can choose the job that best fits their skill set, not one that they're chained to via the prospect of losing insurance.

      Environmental standards -- people without access to clean water, food, and air are less productive.

      Rule of law means that business or personal property generally (outside of abominations like civil forfeiture) can't be stolen at random without redress.

      True, there are excessive regulations like environmental-impact rules on infrastructure that drive up costs massively, but no one who has a sense of history wants to return to Love Canal and the burning Cuyahoga River.

    20. Re: Millennials having kids by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1

      Sure, but the Republicants lump them in as "entitlements."

      Name one republican who advocates government entitlements.

      There are many reasons to criticize the republican party on policy. Making up lies about them, and attacking positions they do not hold, just makes them look smart and reasonable compared the competition :)

    21. Re: Millennials having kids by jeff4747 · · Score: 2, Informative

      Until you're ready for social security and Medicare, at least. Then you'll scream and yell for entitlements.

      It's not an entitlement if you paid for it, ya moron.

      You should probably review the funding for Medicare and Social Security before claiming you "paid for it". Especially when tossing around words like moron.

      Under both programs, the recipients paid in far less than they will receive. For example, Social Security recipients on average paid 1/3 what they will receive.

    22. Re:Millennials having kids by Ichijo · · Score: 1

      It's unfortunate the way poor inner-city residents subsidize their wealthier suburban neighbors. Not only does it create a "reverse Robin Hood" situation where cities rob from the poor and give to the rich, it also gives people the false impression that the suburban lifestyles idolized by Republicans are sustainable which cannot be further from the truth. It keeps people trapped in the cycle of poverty, raising crime rates, and makes infrastructure-intensive, tax-inefficient suburban living all the more attractive when it should be doing the opposite!

      Then suburbanites pat themselves on the back for their good fortune, and they vote for whomever promises to perpetuate the vicious cycle (usually Republicans again), when all they are really doing is creating an economic mess for future generations to clean up.

      Someone once said, "A democracy...can only exist until the majority discovers it can vote itself largess out of the public treasury. After that, the majority always votes for the candidate promising the most benefits with the result the democracy collapses because of the loose fiscal policy ensuing, always to be followed by a dictatorship, then a monarchy."

      It seems we're following in Venezuela's footsteps.

      --
      Any sufficiently unpopular but cohesive argument is indistinguishable from trolling.
    23. Re:Millennials having kids by The+Cynical+Critic · · Score: 2

      If you absolutely must know how old I am, I'm 28 and I have friends in the range from their late teens into their 40s, many of whom I've known since my teens. In my experience most people don't really change all that much in their political leanings. Sure, their priorities change as they age (the elderly for example care much more about elderly care than anyone else), but liberals tend to stay liberal rather than turning into conservatives. The only real exception to this are people who vote for candidates rather than parties and they swing back and forth depending on who's on the ballot.

      As for the "flower children" of the 1960s, they were really just a minority of young people back then who got an unusually large amount of attention from the media due to being something that hadn't really been seen in any kind of significant numbers. Media attention really doesn't equate to actual numbers and that applies to both the "flower children" and the actual "alt right" (i.e not everyone who questions the far left, including actual liberals, as the far left tries to define it). Those "flower children" that are still alive today tend to keep voting for left leaning/liberal candidates.

      --
      "Why should I want to make anything up? Life's bad enough as it is without wanting to invent any more of it."
    24. Re: Millennials having kids by judoguy · · Score: 1

      Until you're ready for social security and Medicare, at least. Then you'll scream and yell for entitlements.

      It's not an entitlement if you paid for it, ya moron.

      It's an entitlement when participation is mandatory and the payments have at best a loose relationship with "benefits".

      --
      Peace is easy to achieve, just surrender. Liberty is much harder get/keep.
    25. Re:Millennials having kids by jeff4747 · · Score: 1

      You really think the hippy, free love generation of the 60s who are the baby boomers of today were just more conservative as kids?

      They were far more conservative than portrayed in popular culture.

      The Baby Boomers were about 40% Nixon youth, 30% hippies (most of the rest were middle of the road). The hippies got the attention, largely because they were working at getting attention. +10% conservative is not a liberal generation.

      Also, political alignment doesn't coincide with the marketing generations. The older half of the Boomers are more liberal. The younger half of the boomers are conservative. The older half of GenX are conservative. The younger half of GenX are liberal. Millennials appear to be settling into liberal beliefs.

      Generally, liberal or conservative political leanings are set by the time someone reaches 30 and don't change much after that. There can be changes of thought on specific areas, but someone will generally fall into a "liberal" or "conservative" political philosophy overall by that time and not change for the rest of their life. A church-going conservative may decide that "gay marriage" is OK, but they are still going to approach other issues with a conservative view.

    26. Re:Millennials having kids by Captain+Splendid · · Score: 1

      Yeah, this whole "Boomers are hippies" thing is nonsense. their generation overwhelmingly voted for Reagan, both Bushes and Trump.

      --
      Linux, you magnificent bastard, I read the fucking manual!
    27. Re:Millennials having kids by ranton · · Score: 4, Interesting

      As a general rule (an unresearched, unscientific gut-feeling kind of rule!), people do seem to get more conservative as they age. I think it's fear - fear of losing what they have accrued, fear of a lifetime of experience becoming less relevant as they age, and an unwillingness to re-examine things they think they got figured out decades prior.

      I don't think becoming more conservative as you age has much to do with changing political views. In fact the only research I have seen who track actual individuals' views over time has shown that supreme court justices become more liberal as they age. (although that may be because they are already older when they become justices) From what I can tell it has more to do with the difference between social and fiscal liberalism and how societies become more socially liberal over time.

      I for instance am a social liberal and fiscal moderate. This means in 2017 I clearly lean Democrat. But in 2047 all of today's socially liberal battles will probably have been won. Or at least not nearly as big of issues as they are today. So I will likely be a social and fiscal moderate in my 60's. My views of women's reproductive rights, LGBT issues, and safety net programs will not have changed, it will be society's views on them which have changed.

      While I am a proponent of a basic income today, perhaps in 30 years I will be against it going up from $30k/year to $40k. Then I might consider myself a fiscal conservative.

      --
      -- All that is necessary for the triumph of evil is that good men do nothing. -- Edmund Burke
    28. Re:Millennials having kids by LynnwoodRooster · · Score: 3, Insightful

      You know, we spend more on education than just about any other country. There is always a hue-and-cry for single-payer medicine to control costs, but we have, essentially, single-payer education, and costs are high - and the results aren't very promising. Maybe those poor school results aren't a result of "gutted budgets" (even though they tend to be the highest in the world), but a bankrupt mentality of how to educate, and what forms the basis of a good education?

      --
      Browsing at +1 - no ACs, I ignore their posts. So refreshing!
    29. Re:Millennials having kids by LynnwoodRooster · · Score: 1

      Government regulation and standards allow for prosperity.

      However, Government largesse and mandatory wealth redistribution (not just from Government to individuals, but often from individual to corporation, like the Obamacare mandate) does not.

      --
      Browsing at +1 - no ACs, I ignore their posts. So refreshing!
    30. Re:Millennials having kids by ranton · · Score: 2

      No, it's some experience and wisdom [that turns people conservative as they age]

      Considering research shows even our supreme justices become more liberal as they age, I would say spending a lot of time having your believes continuously tested in a way that really gives you more experience and wisdom on these topics probably makes you more liberal over time.

      Perhaps most people don't actually obtain usable and unbiased experience and wisdom over their lifetime, but instead let fear drive themselves towards conservatism, but it is a big stretch to think thoughtfulness is the cause of that.

      --
      -- All that is necessary for the triumph of evil is that good men do nothing. -- Edmund Burke
    31. Re: Millennials having kids by pnutjam · · Score: 1, Insightful

      Yeah, and the paternalistic charade of the GOP wears thin.

    32. Re:Millennials having kids by b0s0z0ku · · Score: 4, Insightful

      Except there is no evidence that ACA/Obamacare actually raised insurance prices for equal insurance policies more (on average) than they'd have gone up under the old system. Absent market manipulations that deliberately worked against it, of course.

      It also got rid of abominations like a friend of mine with epilepsy living in CA, being quoted $2000/mo for individual insurance minimum. Sure put a damper on his plans to start a business in 2010.

      Most of the policies that people whined about losing were shit policies with low lifetime caps and a list of exceptions 100 pages long.

    33. Re: Millennials having kids by HornWumpus · · Score: 0

      That depends on what generation you're talking about. SS is a ponzi scheme. Early players got insane rates of return (and voted for FDR until he died). If you're reading this and not already on the tit, the odds are very good your not going to get anywhere close to market ROI from SS. If you get anything at all.

      --
      John McAfee 'It was like that time I hired that Bangkok prostitute; to do my taxes, while I fucked my accountant'
    34. Re:Millennials having kids by HornWumpus · · Score: 0

      After first overwhelmingly voting for McGovern. You prove the point you're arguing against.

      Cocaine affected their minds as much as LSD had.

      --
      John McAfee 'It was like that time I hired that Bangkok prostitute; to do my taxes, while I fucked my accountant'
    35. Re: Millennials having kids by jeff4747 · · Score: 2

      The 1/3rd figure comes from Boomers. Younger generations will get similar returns.

      "Social Security has a shitty ROI" is true only if you pretend you are getting paid from your own personal pool of money. Since the program has never operated that way, it's not exactly a valid argument. But it is utterly fantastic if you want to lie to people about 401k's being "the solution".

    36. Re:Millennials having kids by ScentCone · · Score: 0

      Except there is no evidence that ACA/Obamacare actually raised insurance prices

      Except for the millions of people who've seen their rates go up several hundred percent and, worse, had their deductibles quadruple or more. Now they are required to buy a plan that doesn't get them ANY sort or routine health care, and they're out hundreds at least every month in the sort of cash flow they might have used to visit a doctor periodically, and their deductible is so high that even something like a broken bone would be ruinous. You're saying the ACA got rid of high prices. But it caused our household's rates to go through the roof, lost us our doctor and the use of our good local hospital, and put our deductible at an insanely high number (over $13k). So we're out far more cash every year, get no health care for it at all, and have to pay more on top of that if we actually ever do see a doctor. And the only reason the entire law wasn't found unconstitutional was because it was ruled a tax.

      And here are all sorts of Democrats - who were 100% party-line-in-favor of inflicting that gigantic new tax on us - complaining because they don't like the new tax bill, and are breathlessly calling it "the end of the world" and other rational things. Your defense of Obamacare would be hilarious if it wasn't so destructive.

      --
      Don't disappoint your bird dog. Go to the range.
    37. Re: Millennials having kids by HornWumpus · · Score: 1

      Pretend my ass. You're putting money in, you're getting money out. ROI can be calculated and is not good.

      --
      John McAfee 'It was like that time I hired that Bangkok prostitute; to do my taxes, while I fucked my accountant'
    38. Re:Millennials having kids by djinn6 · · Score: 4, Insightful

      Averages say very little about a nation as large and diverse as the United States. Every school district is different. There are some districts close to where I live that are amongst the best in the world, with the majority of graduates ending up at Ivy League or comparable universities. Some, just a little bit further away, are below national average, with many students not even going to community college. And these are public school districts, mind you.

    39. Re:Millennials having kids by LynnwoodRooster · · Score: 1

      Fully agree. It's why I also believe that we should NOT have a national "minimum wage", nor nationalized health care. Diversity of the nation pretty much prevents us from having a system that will service everyone efficiently. We can have a wide disparity in costs/users just within a 5 hour drive. Back to the concept of "50 experiments running in parallel" would probably suit our nation much better.

      An interesting take on Southern California's school districts. Note that Imperial United, with a $177K average house value and ~24 students per teach outperforms Beverly Hills Unified with $1,000,000+ average house value and 17 students per teacher.

      --
      Browsing at +1 - no ACs, I ignore their posts. So refreshing!
    40. Re:Millennials having kids by Captain+Splendid · · Score: 1

      You prove the point you're arguing against.

      ROFLMAO. I cite 1980 to the present and your counter is 1972? Fucking weak beer dude. Not to mention that the boomer stats for that year are 52% for McGovern and 48% for Nixon, which is a couple hairs short of 'overwhelmingly'.

      --
      Linux, you magnificent bastard, I read the fucking manual!
    41. Re:Millennials having kids by LynnwoodRooster · · Score: 2

      Costs seem to be increasing from ~7% of income to 10.1% of income, after the ACA passed.

      And of course the ACA was a handout to the insurance companies. You are compelled under threat of penalties to give money to a private corporation, whether you want to or not. If you choose not to, then the Government would forcibly take the money from you and hand it over. You were forced to buy a product whether you intended to use it or not. Yes, people talk about car insurance - but you do not need to own or drive a car. If you choose to not purchase or use health insurance (for whatever reason) - you have to pay for it no matter what.

      As far as your friend goes, here's another anecdote. I was paying $112 per month for a catastrophic plan, back in 2008. 40-something, fair health. I have a $12,000 HSA I had built up - and my insurance plan was $10,000 deductible (I cover everything up to that point) and 100% coverage above that level. However, the ACA essentially banned that plan, and the next lowest cost I could get was $455 per month. With a $6500 deductible. Now? Well, I used to have Blue Cross of CA - but they no longer offer plans to self-employed people, so I had to switch to Blue Shield and my premiums are now at $590 per month. Again, for something I do not use because I am in good health. Would love to have kept the catastrophic plan ("If you like your plan you can keep it") but since it was deemed unacceptable, I have paid about $30,000 more in insurance costs than I should have, over the last 8 years...

      --
      Browsing at +1 - no ACs, I ignore their posts. So refreshing!
    42. Re:Millennials having kids by LynnwoodRooster · · Score: 1

      No, see it's GOOD to regulate all things in your life! Government can do no bad, only good! Taking from some (like you, like me) to give to others (like corporations) is a good thing! You just don't understand!

      /sarc

      --
      Browsing at +1 - no ACs, I ignore their posts. So refreshing!
    43. Re: Millennials having kids by jeff4747 · · Score: 1

      Pretend my ass. You're putting money in, you're getting money out. ROI can be calculated and is not good.

      You are putting money in. That money immediately goes to someone who is 67 or older. The money does not sit around waiting for you.

      Instead, your kids and grandkids will be paying you 3x what you paid in. And that money will keep coming no matter what happens to your private investments. So if you retire in a year like 2007, you are not completely up shit creek.

    44. Re:Millennials having kids by b0s0z0ku · · Score: 1

      Yeah. Costs increased because people who long delayed treatment for existing conditions could finally SEE A DOCTOR at an affordable price.

      As far as what you pay, I agree, it's too much. There should have been a public option charging people say 8% of their income (plus 2% per child covered or something) for an acceptable level of insurance, capped at a certain amount.

      Simple to pay for and calculate cost, portable between jobs within the state of California, gets employers out of the benefits-admin business, and cuts out much of the profit-taking middlemen. But noooo, the private insurers wouldn't stand for being relegated to second-class providers of "Medigap."

      Blame the insurance lobby and low-information voters for not having a public option like 90% of developed places have.

    45. Re:Millennials having kids by phantomfive · · Score: 2, Insightful

      The key with regulations are that some are good, and some are bad. Every regulation has a cost, and for good regulations, the benefit outweighs the cost.

      The goal is to make good regulations, and get rid of bad regulations. The only way to do that is to consider each regulation on its own merit.

      --
      "First they came for the slanderers and i said nothing."
    46. Re:Millennials having kids by Maxo-Texas · · Score: 2

      Kansas failed conservative experiment shows that if you are conservative of any age, you have no brain.

      I used to be conservative. The party moved right of me, lost it's honesty and began lying about everything, and became the party of the 2% which depends on brainwashing by Limbaugh (about 80% lie rate), Hannity (about 65% lie rate), and fox news (which used to be okay outside of opinion pieces but now even reporters and anchors at fox news complain privately about it's honesty and story selection being propaganda).

      ----

      Anyway-- on topic, housing prices have exploded in my region. up from 70k for a house 20 years ago to 350k for a house now. Apartments are north of $1500. People's salaries have not risen that quickly. To reach affordable housing, you have to drive over 35 miles from downtown now. Many people commute over 50 miles each way to get to jobs clockwise or counterclockwise around the city (since many jobs are not downtown). Trying to use public transportation to get to a job is almost impossible- 3-4 hours to travel 50 miles if the destination and source are not on the same busline.

      In my neighborhood they are tearing down houses and building $800,000 houses in their places- which are steeply increasing property taxes on all the older houses.

      I can see how these high prices might be leading to an increase in rental properties. At this point, most of the young people I know thru my daughter all live about 35-45 miles from downtown and own houses that cost them about $150k.

      --
      She was like chocolate when she drank... semi-sweet at first and then increasingly bitter.
    47. Re:Millennials having kids by Actually,+I+do+RTFA · · Score: 1

      In fairness, people with a lifetime employment (and no opportunity for promotion) don't have the same worry about losing their job, their nice house, and other general loss aversion that GPs were talking about.

      --
      Your ad here. Ask me how!
    48. Re:Millennials having kids by lgw · · Score: 2

      the false premise upon which a hundred million people died in the last century's misadventures in utopian collectivism

      Closer to 200 million deaths, I believe (100 million just down to Mao). And people get all worked up over fascism, which, as evil as it is, is a rounding error in comparison.

      --
      Socialism: a lie told by totalitarians and believed by fools.
    49. Re:Millennials having kids by lgw · · Score: 2

      Socially, all a liberal has to do to become conservative as he ages is not change his social views. You'll find that's quite common, although sometimes people do actually become more conservative relative to their younger selves when they have kids. Having kids commonly changes one's attitude towards risk-taking in general.

      Financially, people often become conservative once they have a stake in the system - once they have something to conserve. From the simple (and normal) selfishness of not wanting new taxes to hit the group one belongs to, to not wanting to disrupt the financial status quo once you have some real (and needed) retirement savings.

      --
      Socialism: a lie told by totalitarians and believed by fools.
    50. Re:Millennials having kids by HornWumpus · · Score: 1

      You discuss the baby boom as if they started life at 35. You did, in fact, provide evidence that they became more conservative with age.

      Now that we're down to analysing 'overwhelming', post the % of the elections you claimed were 'overwhelming'. I bet they voted more R with each passing election.

      --
      John McAfee 'It was like that time I hired that Bangkok prostitute; to do my taxes, while I fucked my accountant'
    51. Re:Millennials having kids by ranton · · Score: 1

      In fairness, people with a lifetime employment (and no opportunity for promotion) don't have the same worry about losing their job, their nice house, and other general loss aversion that GPs were talking about.

      Agreed, which is why fear is a much better explanation for why older folks may become more conservative than more experience and wisdom is. That was the contention I was arguing against.

      --
      -- All that is necessary for the triumph of evil is that good men do nothing. -- Edmund Burke
    52. Re: Millennials having kids by HornWumpus · · Score: 2

      Semantics, I know it's a ponzi scheme. Pointing that out doesn't help your case.

      If you put money in and get money out, there is a ROI that can be calculated (it's not 3x, it's below inflation). Tough shit that you don't like that fact.

      --
      John McAfee 'It was like that time I hired that Bangkok prostitute; to do my taxes, while I fucked my accountant'
    53. Re: Millennials having kids by jeff4747 · · Score: 1

      (it's not 3x, it's below inflation). Tough shit that you don't like that fact.

      Facts like the money paid out is based on inflation?

      I realize on a libertarian-leaning site like Slashdot, Social Security isn't popular. Doesn't mean you should make up stuff about it.

    54. Re:Millennials having kids by Actually,+I+do+RTFA · · Score: 1

      Ah, you're right. I apologize for misreading your comment. It was perfectly clear.

      --
      Your ad here. Ask me how!
    55. Re:Millennials having kids by Captain+Splendid · · Score: 1

      Two things: You've misinterpreted the whole thread. My original post was agreeing with GP, not arguing against him. So when you say something like "I bet they voted more R with each passing election", you sound like an idiot, because I haven't once argued that point. The entire point was that they weren't that liberal in the first place.

      Second, I already provided you a link. If you're too lazy to operate a couple of drop down menus, that's on you.

      --
      Linux, you magnificent bastard, I read the fucking manual!
    56. Re:Millennials having kids by HornWumpus · · Score: 1

      Any group that voted for McGovern was very liberal at the time. He was a TERRIBLE candidate and lost by huge margins among normal people.

      --
      John McAfee 'It was like that time I hired that Bangkok prostitute; to do my taxes, while I fucked my accountant'
    57. Re:Millennials having kids by LynnwoodRooster · · Score: 2

      Yeah. Costs increased because people who long delayed treatment for existing conditions could finally SEE A DOCTOR at an affordable price.

      Actual facts say otherwise. People are going to the doctor LESS.

      As far as what you pay, I agree, it's too much. There should have been a public option charging people say 8% of their income (plus 2% per child covered or something) for an acceptable level of insurance, capped at a certain amount.

      Simple to pay for and calculate cost, portable between jobs within the state of California, gets employers out of the benefits-admin business, and cuts out much of the profit-taking middlemen. But noooo, the private insurers wouldn't stand for being relegated to second-class providers of "Medigap."

      Blame the insurance lobby and low-information voters for not having a public option like 90% of developed places have.

      And blame President Obama and the Democratic leadership for forcing the ACA on us, which forces purchase of a product from a private corporation and fines you if you choose not to buy. It's a tax, through and through - but one that goes predominantly straight to corporations.

      --
      Browsing at +1 - no ACs, I ignore their posts. So refreshing!
    58. Re: Millennials having kids by HornWumpus · · Score: 1

      SS payments are indexed to 'inflation'. So what. The tax rate has gone way up and the inflation index is a well known fiction.

      Again: You can calculate ROI. It's below 'inflation', today. Before the money printing for the baby boom really starts. Tough shit that you don't like it.

      --
      John McAfee 'It was like that time I hired that Bangkok prostitute; to do my taxes, while I fucked my accountant'
    59. Re:Millennials having kids by b0s0z0ku · · Score: 2

      Your stats are from 2001 and 2010, from before the Obamacare/ACA law's implementation. Nice try, though.

      Also, ACA = Romneycare. Democrats wanted a cheaper truly public insurance option, the ACA was the watered-down GOP-approved version. Blame the GOP, not Obama.

    60. Re:Millennials having kids by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Millennials are living with their parents, they are holding off on kids and marriage because jobs don't pay enough, school costs more, rent costs more, everything costs more except their labor.

    61. Re:Millennials having kids by Captain+Splendid · · Score: 1

      Shit, I think I broke him.

      --
      Linux, you magnificent bastard, I read the fucking manual!
    62. Re:Millennials having kids by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Right, we also have to define and work toward particular outcomes. In the school system that outcome is most "subsidized child care" followed by "compliance" followed by "training for use as labor". Given those goals I think we're actually doing pretty well. It's only when we pretend that the education system is supposed to provide education that the efficiency statistics look bad.

    63. Re:Millennials having kids by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      You seem confused about "insurance" v.s. "subsidizing". Your friend with epilepsy costs at least that. Now my health insurance cost has tripled even though my risk factors haven't changed at all.

      No, ACA isn't a good thing, it's a very, very bad thing. It's paying off the insurance companies when they no longer have to accept any risk at all.

    64. Re:Millennials having kids by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Man, I never knew that cities were a child-free zone. I bet if we finished kicking out the 22.7% of residents that are minors we'd have plenty of housing stock available in the city.

    65. Re:Millennials having kids by b0s0z0ku · · Score: 1

      In a civilized society, people shouldn't have to pay $2000+/mo just to live because they got the short end of the DNA lottery. I see nothing wrong with subsidies -- far better than subsidizing more military murder or jails.

    66. Re:Millennials having kids by LynnwoodRooster · · Score: 1

      OK, you made a claim and failed to cite any data. You claimed people are going more - anything to back that up? As far as "Romneycare" - I don't care. The ACA was 100% written and passed by the Democrats - name a SINGLE GOP member that supported it. And remember it was forced though with a filibuster-proof majority. You cannot spread the blame for it....

      --
      Browsing at +1 - no ACs, I ignore their posts. So refreshing!
    67. Re:Millennials having kids by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      That those who want to make a living being the government middleman who carves up the pie and distributes it in exchange for power have a vested interest in trying to fool inexperienced younger people into thinking that the only reason they're not more prosperous yet is because someone else is, instead. That's the central thesis of lefty politics

      It's not just lefty politics; this is also the core of "immigrants took our jobs!"

    68. Re:Millennials having kids by b0s0z0ku · · Score: 1

      Hedge against future repeal. Also, the American people gave a mandate for healthcare reform via a Democratic House, Senate, and President in 2010.

    69. Re: Millennials having kids by goose-incarnated · · Score: 2

      You are putting money in. That money immediately goes to someone who is 67 or older. The money does not sit around waiting for you.

      You think that any money put into your investment portfolio sits around waiting for you? Hell no - it immediately goes to someone.

      FCOL, money you deposit into your fucking bank account does not sit around waiting for you- it immediately goes to someone else. That doesn't mean that the money you eventually get back is not yours.

      If you put money into anything that eventually gives it back to you like an investment, bank account, retirement fund, or social security, what you get back is yours, because you damn well paid for it upfront.

      Forcing people to contribute to a pool of money with a legal contract specifying how and what they withdraw from that pool, and then trying to shame them when they exercise their withdrawal options is, frankly, repulsive and antisocial behaviour.

      If you don't like the generous terms they were given then take it up with the people in power who gave out those generous terms. Stop trying to shame people into giving up what is legally theirs.

      --
      I'm a minority race. Save your vitriol for white people.
    70. Re:Millennials having kids by kaatochacha · · Score: 1

      In case anyone cares, you can look up the salaries of any California state worker, including teachers, here: https://transparentcalifornia....

    71. Re:Millennials having kids by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Which is why statements like "the solution is less regulation" are ridiculous. At best, the solution is to get rid of regulations that don't work as intended or are more costly than the benefits they provide. It's why I stop paying attention as soon as someone parrots some line along "less regulation is good". On the flip side, I've heard bad suggestions for regulations that can be opposed, but I've rarely heard a blanket "we need more regulations" statement to the extent I hear the other.

    72. Re:Millennials having kids by phantomfive · · Score: 1

      but I've rarely heard a blanket "we need more regulations" statement

      "Those banks need to be regulated to hell." You will very often hear it when a (mindless) liberal and conservative programmer get together: "We need less regulation!" "No, we need more regulation!"

      --
      "First they came for the slanderers and i said nothing."
    73. Re: Millennials having kids by Pfhorrest · · Score: 1

      I don't think anyone is saying that people drawing on social security don't deserve to do so. Just that it's not quite the same as paying into an investment fund and then withdrawing from it later. It's more like insurance. (In fact, I think maybe technically it is insurance).

      If I pay for fire insurance on a house for my entire life and there's never a fire so I never have to draw on it, there's not some pool of unclaimed fire insurance fund money that belongs to my estate left over when I die. Likewise, if I pay into social security for my entire working life and then get hit by a bus right before I'd have started collecting, there's not a pool of unclaimed social security fund money with my name on it.

      The money I pay for fire insurance goes to paying for people who are suffering house fires right now; and if I should ever suffer one, the money from people paying for fire insurance and not suffering house fires will go to pay for my needs. It doesn't matter how much I did or didn't pay in or how much I need paid out right now; I could have just now bought fire insurance, only paid a few hundred dollars so far, and suddenly need hundreds of thousands of dollars of payout, and I'd get it, even though I've never paid anywhere near that in. And I wouldn't owe that money later. I could stop paying for fire insurance a year later, or switch to a different insurer, and there fire insurance company can't come after me because there was never some account balancing how much I've paid in vs how much I've collected.

      Likewise, the money I pay for social security goes to taking care of people who are old right now, and then if I live to be old, the money from young people paying for it then will pay for what I'll collect. If I miraculously live another two centuries somehow, I'm never going to run out of money in my social security fund, because it's not being paid out of some account that I've been paying into. I've been paying to cover other people while I'm young, and other young people will pay for me for however long I manage to stay alive when I'm old. (Assuming the program still exists by then, which I'm not taking for granted).

      --
      -Forrest Cameranesi, Geek of all Trades
      "I am Sam. Sam I am. I do not like trolls, flames, or spam."
    74. Re:Millennials having kids by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      B/C voting R helps them how? ohhh nooo dude, it doesn't, because they're also soon going to be horrified at the cost of healthcare insurance with kids, when it should be a single payer system funded through general taxes like the rest of the world, omg dude like Canada, omg yeah eh, its cheaper and has better outcomes eh?! oooh yeah just like their public school system eh?!

      They're gonna be up-voting Bernie even more come 2020 to tax all those rich white assholes who think their shit doesnt stink.

    75. Re: Millennials having kids by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Pah, I went to school with 50 kid classes from cheap homes, and learned me some good stuff. Any troublemakers were thrashed. But when I got into 5 to 10 kid classes for final year, the teacher could spot when I was distracted easier!

    76. Re: Millennials having kids by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      They already are. What do you think the alt right is?

    77. Re: Millennials having kids by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      You're the idjit. An entitlement is something that someone is, entitled to. Like retirees are entitled to social security. Entitlements have become torqued into meaning payments to those who haven't done squat, like getting a job. I dunno the word for them, but 'expected handouts for life, without thanks' seems to describe these hand outs.

    78. Re: Millennials having kids by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      The Supreme Court has in fact ruled that there is no such contractual obligation. https://www.ssa.gov/history/nestor.html

    79. Re:Millennials having kids by Uberbah · · Score: 1

      You know, we spend more on education than just about any other country.

      In the same way the net worth of a pub skyrockets the moment Bill Gates walks in the door. You don't judge the health of an education system by looking at high schools in the Hamptons, you look at how well it's serving the poor taking the bus from their double-wides.

    80. Re: Millennials having kids by goose-incarnated · · Score: 1

      I don't think anyone is saying that people drawing on social security don't deserve to do so.

      No, but GP ( b0s0z0ku ) snidely implied that they are hypocritical for taking their legal and share out of SS:

      Until you're ready for social security and Medicare, at least. Then you'll scream and yell for entitlements.

      While other GP (jeff4747) outright said that they are taking something they do not deserve, stopping just short of calling it theft:

      You should probably review the funding for Medicare and Social Security before claiming you "paid for it". Especially when tossing around words like moron. Under both programs, the recipients paid in far less than they will receive. For example, Social Security recipients on average paid 1/3 what they will receive.

      --
      I'm a minority race. Save your vitriol for white people.
    81. Re: Millennials having kids by goose-incarnated · · Score: 1

      You should probably review the funding for Medicare and Social Security before claiming you "paid for it". Especially when tossing around words like moron.

      Under both programs, the recipients paid in far less than they will receive. For example, Social Security recipients on average paid 1/3 what they will receive.

      So? All social welfare recipients receive more from the system than they paid in. SS isn't any different, except that SS recipients paid in far more than any other welfare recipient.

      What would you like to do? Make SS optional? Would you like to opt out?

      --
      I'm a minority race. Save your vitriol for white people.
    82. Re:Millennials having kids by hai_Priesty · · Score: 1

      Another thing may also come into play:

      Why many layman observed as people "turning" conservative as they age may just be people becoming pragmatic, and voice concerns about sustainability of plans and government's inability to foot the bill when talking about welfare, or how much immigration is too much, while younger people tend to me more idealistic on how the matter should done. Younger people seen to lean more heavily towards adhering to ideals and showing empathy, while the first question some older people ask is whether this can practically be done (or, "without too much sacrifice which they and society is not willing to bear") and if it is sustainable.

      Just because someone opposes a welfare plan in his city to city budget doesn't mean he has less empathy to the poor, down-trodden ones than the activists for the plan. He may be one Darwinistic libertarian, or he may be a humanist, but pragmatically opposing it due to it bringing undue burden on the city, which will bankrupt the city causing even more hardship to larger set of innocent parties. Though people tend to like putting other people into "categorizes" in broad brush and probably would classifying him under "conservative".

    83. Re:Millennials having kids by amxcoder · · Score: 1

      I got you beat, am self employed, have a "no longer offered" (grandfathered) HMO plan with Kaiser, and it costs me >$1750 /mo premiums for the family plan [you+spouse+kid(s)]. Luckily my copays are $25 for dr. visits and $15 for perscriptions, but the premiums suck!

      This same plan when I signed up for back in like ~2004/2005 cost about $800/mo and was one of the more expensive plans at the time compared to PPO plans or other HMO's with higher co-pays. Now that I'm grand-fathered, I can't pick one with a higher copay without completely dumping the plan, and picking one of the "approved" ACA plans which all seem to be PPO with high out of pocket copays and that don't cover as much.

      My plan copays that I like=
      $100 for ER
      $25 (once) for full term prenatal care/visits/ultrasounds + delivery (including c-sections)
      $100 amulance fee (which also includes the ER visit from resulting ambulance).
      $100 MRI's.
      $150 /night hospital stays.


      The only GOOD thing about having a plan so costly, is my family goes to the Dr. when ever we need to because it's the only way to feel like you're getting your moneys worth out it.

    84. Re:Millennials having kids by ranton · · Score: 1

      Just because someone opposes a welfare plan in his city to city budget doesn't mean he has less empathy to the poor, down-trodden ones than the activists for the plan. He may be one Darwinistic libertarian, or he may be a humanist, but pragmatically opposing it due to it bringing undue burden on the city, which will bankrupt the city causing even more hardship to larger set of innocent parties. Though people tend to like putting other people into "categorizes" in broad brush and probably would classifying him under "conservative".

      While I believe I see where you are coming from, I have a hard time agreeing with these comments in today's political climate (in the US at least). Income inequality, poverty, social mobility, safety nets, access to health care and education, etc. are so poor in the United States compared to other developed nations that I don't believe anyone who argues against what are considered leftist policies in the US has nearly no empathy for the poor and down-trodden. Perhaps a little sympathy, but not enough to do anything about it.

      If your comments were directed towards fiscal conservatives in the EU I could agree with you more, but anyone who is against enhancing funding for programs which assist the poor and even working/middle class in the US has a strong lack of empathy for others. I still consider myself a fiscal moderate, but nearly all of the most "leftist" US politicians are fiscal moderates in my eyes (and in the rest of the world outside of the US's eyes). Liberals in the US may not always be pragmatic, but fiscal conservatives in the US simply lie and/or ignore the research which refutes nearly every claim they make about how to improve an economy and social mobility.

      --
      -- All that is necessary for the triumph of evil is that good men do nothing. -- Edmund Burke
    85. Re: Millennials having kids by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      I'm thinking by the time I'm ready for Social Security (assuming it still exists) they will have Carrousel and I will be renewed!

    86. Re: Millennials having kids by jeff4747 · · Score: 1

      SS payments are indexed to 'inflation'. So what.

      Well, when you're claiming the ROI is below inflation, it's rather important. Because it means the ROI isn't below inflation despite your claim.

      The tax rate has gone way up and the inflation index is a well known fiction.

      So...you're also unaware of the concept of tax brackets, and how it keeps the majority of Social Security recipients from paying taxes.

      Also, non-infowars citation required for "the inflation index is a well known fiction". 'Cause not even knowing it's called CPI is kinda a clue you don't actually know much about it.

      Again: You can calculate ROI. It's below 'inflation', today.

      Please explain the math how an ROI of something indexed to inflation can be below inflation.

    87. Re: Millennials having kids by jeff4747 · · Score: 1

      You think that any money put into your investment portfolio sits around waiting for you? Hell no - it immediately goes to someone.

      The money is used to purchase an asset that sits around waiting for you. For example, when you buy a stock within a 401k plan, you get a share waiting for you. It's got your name on it, and it belongs to you.

      When you pay your Social Security taxes, you do not receive an asset. You own nothing as a result of those tax payments.

      FCOL, money you deposit into your fucking bank account does not sit around waiting for you- it immediately goes to someone else. That doesn't mean that the money you eventually get back is not yours.

      Again, you get an asset when you deposit the money - the balance in your bank account. Again, you get no assets as a result of paying Social Security taxes.

      If you put money into anything that eventually gives it back to you like an investment, bank account, retirement fund, or social security, what you get back is yours, because you damn well paid for it upfront.

      Nope. When you put money into those accounts, you are purchasing assets. And you can't just "get money out". You have to sell an asset. In the case of a normal bank account that is trivial, but in the case of, say, real estate owned via an IRA it gets more complicated.

      Forcing people to contribute to a pool of money with a legal contract specifying how and what they withdraw from that pool, and then trying to shame them when they exercise their withdrawal options is, frankly, repulsive and antisocial behaviour.

      It's called a law. If you don't like them, perhaps you should consider what happens to you if following all laws required the affirmative consent of everyone those laws cover. It would be really easy for me to get your car if I can just refuse to consent to the laws barring grand theft.

    88. Re: Millennials having kids by jeff4747 · · Score: 1

      While other GP (jeff4747) outright said that they are taking something they do not deserve, stopping just short of calling it theft:

      You really, really, really, really need to work on your reading comprehension skills.

      "Deserve" has nothing to do with it.

    89. Re: Millennials having kids by jeff4747 · · Score: 1

      Um.....did you actually read my post, or just leap a few lightyears to a conclusion?

      I never said Social Security was bad, the recipients were undeserving, or any other bullshit you tried to shove in my mouth.

      I said Social Security recipients get back more than they paid in. So the parent was wrong to claim they "paid" for their Social Security. That says nothing about who deserves what.

    90. Re:Millennials having kids by david_thornley · · Score: 1

      That's because we stomped on Nazi Germany and militarist Japan hard and reasonably fast. (Fascist Italy wasn't murdering significant numbers of people.) The Soviet Union and Communist China had a lot more time to rack up deaths. My best estimates show Nazi Germany and militarist Japan killing at close to double the rate of the Soviet Union and Communist China.

      --
      "When you have eliminated the unacceptable, whatever is left, however improbable, must be the truthiness" - Holmes
    91. Re: Millennials having kids by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Au contraire! That's exactly what it is - I paid for it, therefore I am entitled to it. An entitlement.

      It's in the name.

    92. Re: Millennials having kids by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      If you've paid Social Security taxes, you've paid for your benefit. Full stop.

      Whether you receive more or less in benefits than you paid in is irrelevant. Would you say that I didn't "pay for" my life insurance if I died two months after taking out a term policy? My estate would get a lot more from the policy than I paid in.

      Thus it is with Social Security. Some people pay their taxes, retire at 62, and live to 108. They get a lot more out of SS than they put in (n.b. they paid their taxes, thus they are entitled to the benefit). Some people pay their taxes, retire at 62, and die at 63. They get a lot LESS out of SS than they put in.

      Some people die before hitting retirement age! They paid in and never got a cent of the benefit they paid for.

      They still paid for it.

    93. Re: Millennials having kids by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      If that's your angle, focus on how payroll taxes should be repealed. It's dishonest to blame budget problems on Social Security or Medicare unless you can show that the budget problems go away with BOTH a repeal of the relevant taxes and of the programs.

    94. Re: Millennials having kids by jeff4747 · · Score: 1

      Would you say that I didn't "pay for" my life insurance if I died two months after taking out a term policy?

      Given that you are buying insurance instead of guaranteed income, this isn't exactly comparable.

      Some people die before hitting retirement age! They paid in and never got a cent of the benefit they paid for.

      Golly....it's almost like there was a reason I included the word "average".....

      They still paid for it.

      Nope. They paid for someone else's. The money literally went to a different person and is now gone. They did not purchase any form of asset that can now be liquidated to give them money.

      Social Security is a social contract. Not an investment. You are not getting your money back. You did not pay for it. Younger people are paying you. They are fulfilling the same social contract you did when you paid older people.

      Lying about Social Security in an attempt to convert it from a social contract to a personal investment is part of laying the groundwork to eliminate it. That's why this lie is extremely common, and why it is important to point out it is a lie.

    95. Re:Millennials having kids by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Just because someone opposes a welfare plan in his city to city budget doesn't mean he has less empathy to the poor, down-trodden ones than the activists for the plan.

      If that's the case, it should be made clear. Stating that you oppose something without adequately explaining *why* is inviting others to guess at your real views and feelings. A Darwinist, however, isn't really going to be compassionate toward his fellow human. He sees them as competition.

      That's the problem with the state of political discourse in this country. Nobody's explaining *why* they have an opinion, and act surprised when people make educated guesses. If you don't want to be misunderstood, make your point(s) more explicit and unambiguous.

      The more interesting question is naturally, "Why do you believe X group of people should suffer while Y group benefits?" Many political decisions DO come down to this, and that talking point doesn't really get covered. It's the uncomfortable idea that humans rank other humans' worth and act accordingly. Until we tackle that type of thought and find a way forward, society will be stuck choosing winners and losers arbitrarily. If we are the greatest animal on Earth, why can't we figure out how to take care of our own? We do a shitty job of that, and can hardly call any society on this planet advanced until every person's basic needs are met.

      The core problem is something we made up ourselves: money.

    96. Re:Millennials having kids by kaatochacha · · Score: 1

      You start an argument off with "You are stupid". Why both continuing with your argument past that.

      It's like me arguing with you about my favorite car, and starting with "Your mother is a whore! I enjoy driving....".

    97. Re:Millennials having kids by kaatochacha · · Score: 1

      WTF is a burp?

    98. Re:Millennials having kids by Maxo-Texas · · Score: 1

      Couldn't agree more.

      Monumental stupidity requires monumental confrontation.

      Right now the senate is voting to raise your taxes, make themselves and the president, hedge fund managers, and the top 1% even wealthier, set the stage for being 'forced' to cut your social security, medicare, food for starving children, and in 3-4 years permanently raise your taxes while also adding 1.5 trillion dollars to the deficit.

      And they are not even afraid of being run out of office in 2018.

      Like other ex-conservatives and democrats (but not the extreme left) I tried being fair, bipartisan, non-confrontational, reasonable, logical and persuasive for the last 8 years. The result was white nationalists killing young women with cars while shouting "cuck".

      It didn't work. Time to get out the 2x4.

      --
      She was like chocolate when she drank... semi-sweet at first and then increasingly bitter.
    99. Re:Millennials having kids by walllaby · · Score: 1

      If I had points to give out, I would give them here.

    100. Re:Millennials having kids by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Whatever medicine you're on, double that dose. It's not working.

    101. Re:Millennials having kids by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      So let me get it straight: so many people want to live there that housing market cannot keep up and you call it "failed experiment"?

      It reminds me of one argument between two of my friends from opposite sides of the spectrum:
      Lefty: "Without solid regulation it's gonna be Wild West over here!"
      Righty: "People flocked TO Wild West, not run away from there."

    102. Re:Millennials having kids by mjwx · · Score: 1

      You know, we spend more on education than just about any other country. There is always a hue-and-cry for single-payer medicine to control costs, but we have, essentially, single-payer education, and costs are high - and the results aren't very promising. Maybe those poor school results aren't a result of "gutted budgets" (even though they tend to be the highest in the world), but a bankrupt mentality of how to educate, and what forms the basis of a good education?

      If you're spending so much on Education and aren't managing to have a decent education system, you need to look at how the system is run. The problem with Education in the US is the same with health care. the US govt spends twice what the UK govt does per person per annum on health care but does not provide the same standard of service as the NHS and the US health care recipient has to pay out of pocket. The problem is the US health care system is made to fit an ideology that does not support an affordable health care system... the US education system is the same, designed to fit the ideology of those who control the purse strings, not to service those who need or want education.

      To fix education in the US, you need to do what we did in Australia or the UK and take control away from the Government and let the service be measured and guided by its results. Of course this means that some bible basher congressman from East Texas cant ban schools from teaching things like Evolution.

      --
      Calling someone a "hater" only means you can not rationally rebut their argument.
    103. Re:Millennials having kids by AutodidactLabrat · · Score: 1

      Soon theyâ(TM)ll be ditching the Feel the Bern shirts and voting Republican.

      Wrong
      They are parents now.
      And can no longer afford to think only of their own gain
      The next 50 years matter.
      And the Republican party believes none of that matters.

    104. Re:Millennials having kids by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Yeah as other says below. The US is a patchwork system of local public education. Not a nationalized system. The countries that kick our but in education do use nationalized systems.

  5. Buying is often cheaper by MoarSauce123 · · Score: 5, Informative

    I was renting for a long time until a house in the neighborhood came on the market. We did the math and after mortgage, taxes, insurance, and other fees we came up with 300$ less than what we paid in rent. Buying not only saves us a lot of money, it builds equity. As a first time buyer we made use of the available assistance that allowed us to invest into remodel and a new roof. "New roof?" you say, an expense that a renter does not have to worry about. True, but even with the loan payment that will end soon we still pay less per month compared to renting....for a house twice the size.

    1. Re:Buying is often cheaper by thaylin · · Score: 1

      and depending on the cause that new roof may even be paid for by the insurance company.

      --
      When you cant win, ad hominem.
    2. Re:Buying is often cheaper by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1

      You're missing the big picture. If you do things right, you'll be making a heck of a lot more money in 10 years and 20 years relative to your present salary. Meanwhile your mortgage payment isn't really changing (except for the small portion that is property tax) so it's like having shrinking rent. When it's all paid off, you just pay the property tax! At the peak of your earning potential you don't have to pay your single largest monthly expense! You could never do that renting.

    3. Re:Buying is often cheaper by aaarrrgggh · · Score: 5, Insightful

      Running the numbers is important. When I moved to Los Angeles, I expected to be here for a year or two max. Have been renting for 11 years now. While housing prices have appreciated beyond rational levels, it is only that which makes the equation for buying (retroactively) work. We put offers in on a few houses over the years, but our monthly costs would double, and the net return on investment is basically on par with what we get in our brokerage account, at best. (We bought a vacation home instead for what our down payment would have been.)

      Real-estate is mainly an inflation hedge in the long term. It is helpful for diversification, and it can be something useful for survival, and it is a good way for people that can't save otherwise to be forced into it. It is a poor investment if you need to sell in less than 5-6 years, or if you end up buying a much bigger house than your present needs dictate to accommodate long-term family plans.

    4. Re:Buying is often cheaper by Junta · · Score: 1

      Also those repair expenses that you don't have to worry about? You worry about it in every rent check.

      --
      XML is like violence. If it doesn't solve the problem, use more.
    5. Re:Buying is often cheaper by JackieBrown · · Score: 1

      This is very true. Especially once you start needing 3 bedrooms.

      And the price stays the same every year as opposed to an apartment which raises rent but not enough to pay the cost of moving . Well least that's how it was before property taxes in San Antonio sky rocketed. I'm paying almost 3 hundred more that when I moved into my house 4 years ago. My escrow costs as much as my mortgage.

      Even with the high taxes, it's still cheaper than renting a 3 bedroom apartment - and I have privacy and a yard.

    6. Re:Buying is often cheaper by Drethon · · Score: 1

      I second this in my area too. When I bought my house, it was about $700 a month for a 1 bedroom apartment with not much square feet beyond that. For a 20 year mortgage the payment was about the same for a 4 bedroom house with 2000 square feet (including unfinished workshop) a quarter acre property and a full garage. Plus I paid extra and paid off the mortgage early.

    7. Re:Buying is often cheaper by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      And with the mortgage tax deduction being eliminated, will it still be less than renting?

    8. Re:Buying is often cheaper by b0s0z0ku · · Score: 1

      You still did it wrong.

      You should have bought a duplex or triplex. They're typically prices similarly (or cheaper) than single family houses, and, if you rent the other unit(s), you have some other skell paying most of your mortgage and taxes. Beautiful situation.

    9. Re:Buying is often cheaper by Baron_Yam · · Score: 3, Insightful

      It's much better to rent a different property. You really, really, REALLY don't want to live in the same building with a bad renter. People do it, but it adds stress to your life that isn't worth the money (in my opinion, of course).

      Generally that's going to mean having your primary residence be smaller, and having it paid off. I guess that means adding a decade to your schedule for becoming a landlord, but I highly recommend it. I haven't done it (yet), but I have a couple of friends who have.

    10. Re:Buying is often cheaper by b0s0z0ku · · Score: 1

      If you own a duplex, make sure not to rent to bad people -- it's relatively easy to vet/find good tenants through your social network if you're not advertising in public and aren't in an extreme rush to rent the unit.

    11. Re:Buying is often cheaper by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1

      And with the mortgage tax deduction being eliminated, will it still be less than renting?

      In terms of $/sq-ft it still is, especially when you count the yard, garage, and any other buildings that you have on your lot, I pay less for a 1600 sq-ft house with 2-car garage and full basement on a wooded half-acre than many pay for those nice single-bedroom apartments down the road. You're also still building equity as well.

      Really the only advantage that renters have is being able to move easily to chase jobs in other cities and states, but that only works really when you're young and single, try getting your spouse to pack up and find a new job as well in some town that she isn't interested in living in, even more difficult if you're having to relocate with kids as well.

    12. Re:Buying is often cheaper by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      The prices are quite similar here in the other side of the world. Buying apartment share is cheaper than renting. Usually lot prices are financed using long term loans by the apartment company (HOA equivalent but with financial responsibilities and company structure) which collects the maintenance fees from the share holders, so the price of actually buying a lot and building a house on it might be something else.

    13. Re:Buying is often cheaper by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Also those repair expenses that you don't have to worry about? You worry about it in every rent check.

      The ability to make your own decisions about the timing of repairs is a critical part of home ownership.

      The homeowner can defer maintenance or choose times to do the maintenance when they have additional income or can take advantage of circumstances like tax deductions or periods when labor costs go down or DIY to reduce costs. Yes, it is more work to consider all those variables and it gets harder to do when you are older, but home ownership is a great way for people to have control over their costs and if they can stay in the same place long enough then they can also avoid moving costs.

    14. Re:Buying is often cheaper by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1

      You still did it wrong.

      You should have bought a duplex or triplex. They're typically prices similarly (or cheaper) than single family houses, and, if you rent the other unit(s), you have some other skell paying most of your mortgage and taxes. Beautiful situation.

      I have a coworker who did that. The upsides is that you have someone else paying most of your mortgage (as long as you do have a renter at all times), can easily keep an eye on them and don't have to travel far to do maintenance and repairs. The downside is that since you're right next door they'll come bother you at all hours for every tiny little thing, if you end up having to evict them and run into difficulties doing so because of local laws it will be a very awkward situation, and if you have any bad blood with your evicted tenants they know where you live.

    15. Re:Buying is often cheaper by Baron_Yam · · Score: 1

      > it's relatively easy to vet/find good tenants through your social network if you're not advertising in public

      You have a larger social network than I do, if it's sufficient to find tenants in any reasonable length of time. And you also have more faith in webs of trust than I do - I don't even have much trust based on a trusted person's recommendation, never mind adding a couple of more steps.

      I base that lack of faith on being personally burned by vouching for people that even in retrospect I had no reason to mistrust based on the evidence available at that time. I would give my own brother no more than a conditional recommendation at this point. Which might make me an ass, but at least I know I am an ass whose word is worth a lot.

    16. Re:Buying is often cheaper by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1

      The mortgage tax deduction isn't being eliminated unless you're taking out a mortgage for more than half a million. Yes, it'll hurt people in places with stupidly expensive housing, but sorry, if you can afford a house that requires a half million dollar load (assuming you're putting down the standard 20% which you really should do or you have no business buying a home in the first place, that's over a $600K house), you really don't need the tax deduction on that. And remember, it's a deduction, so even if you're paying 20K in interest a year (remember only the interest is deductible), it's only going to save you about 5 grand a year anyway. Again, we're talking about $600K+ homes, and if you can afford that, 5 grand isn't going to kill you.

    17. Re:Buying is often cheaper by 110010001000 · · Score: 1

      Some of us prefer quality of life over saving money. I don't want to live sharing a wall with other people.

    18. Re:Buying is often cheaper by b0s0z0ku · · Score: 1

      My quality of life is working 40 hours a week and taking a 4-5 weeks off per year while the suckers work to pay the mortgage and taxes on their one-family boxes of ticky-tacky.

    19. Re:Buying is often cheaper by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      A renter doesn't have to 'worry' about a new roof. He certainly gets to pay for it, though. Instead, the renter can worry if the landlord will fix the leaky roof this year, or another winter with buckets all around . . .

    20. Re:Buying is often cheaper by 110010001000 · · Score: 1

      Big deal. I work 35 hours a week and take off 4-5 weeks and have a single family home in a major city. Anecdotes are fun, but meaningless. As you said: "do what rich white people do", right? They aren't living in duplexes/triplexes.

    21. Re:Buying is often cheaper by 110010001000 · · Score: 1

      The proposal is $750k, not $500k.

    22. Re:Buying is often cheaper by b0s0z0ku · · Score: 1

      I didn't say anything about "rich white people." In fact, I really don't care what "rich white people" do -- if they want to be snobbish and leave a grand or two a month on the table, more power to them.

      I'm not so concerned about what my family, friends, and cow-orkers think of me as long as I'm having fun and am better off than they are without them even knowing it :)

    23. Re:Buying is often cheaper by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Interesting, over here in South east asia, my parents went from renting to flipping* the house we stayed in, to now flipping 2 other properties and renting 2 long term while we stopped having to move so often for about a decade now.

      Each flip at the start brought in about 10-15% of the property value in net gain b4 income tax.

      *Flipping means to buy n sell in a short period, for property its usually 1-3 years.

    24. Re:Buying is often cheaper by 110010001000 · · Score: 1

      But you aren't "better off". Some people would trade a grand or two a month to not have to deal with renters, or live in a triplex/duplex. That sounds like a miserable life to me. Amazingly, some people like to live life differently than you do.

    25. Re:Buying is often cheaper by luis_a_espinal · · Score: 2

      I was renting for a long time until a house in the neighborhood came on the market. We did the math and after mortgage, taxes, insurance, and other fees we came up with 300$ less than what we paid in rent. Buying not only saves us a lot of money, it builds equity. As a first time buyer we made use of the available assistance that allowed us to invest into remodel and a new roof. "New roof?" you say, an expense that a renter does not have to worry about. True, but even with the loan payment that will end soon we still pay less per month compared to renting....for a house twice the size.

      As a homeowner, I'd say this is highly situational. In my case, I'm certainly building equity, but it's hard to feel that since I have to make repairs (and with homes, you always have to.)

      Main reason we bought the house was to get as close as possible to the 2nd best school district in the county (and one of the best in the nation), to build equity and because it is hard to find an affordable renting place in such neighborhoods. Otherwise, I would have stayed as a renter till my kids go to college.

      Ultimately a person *might* save money (and that depends on where that person lives, when the purchase was made (did you purchase it low or high) and when the house might be sold (will the house be sold on an up or down market.)

      The issue is always about cash flow and the ability to buy in a desirable place. Anyone can buy a home in a shit hole, but with kids, some people (actually many) are better off renting in more expensive zip codes.

      And even then, there is the problem that zones can change over time. We bought to be close to a great public school, but alas, school budgets are being cut so much that even public schools in wealthy areas are beginning to suffer (and are starting to rely on donations from wealthy donors.)

      And that has made me wonder if it might have been wiser to buy at a cheaper place (or rent) and send my kids to private school or fight to enter a magnet school. I would have retained capital (liquid assets) that I could be investing in a buy-and-hold long term position that guarantees me a much better ROI than a home would.

      Anyhow, there are many developed countries when home ownership is not that big of a deal (Switzerland and Japan comes to mind.) No country is perfect, but we could stand to gain by learning a few things from other countries (where people use homes to live as opposed to use them as a main vehicle to wealth construction.)

    26. Re:Buying is often cheaper by LynnwoodRooster · · Score: 1

      It's why it's smart to pay a 5-8% commission to a rental management company, and portray yourself as another dissatisfied renter...

      --
      Browsing at +1 - no ACs, I ignore their posts. So refreshing!
    27. Re:Buying is often cheaper by LynnwoodRooster · · Score: 1

      Apparently you've never been to Manhattan, and seen the condos and townhomes of the well-to-do... For example, 15 Central Park West has a starting price around $8 million.

      --
      Browsing at +1 - no ACs, I ignore their posts. So refreshing!
    28. Re:Buying is often cheaper by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      I did the opposite. Sold my house, downsized significantly, pay $500 less than my mortgage, and I don't ever have to worry about maintenance or upkeep or bills for a house. I have savings, flexibility, and peace of mind.

      When I owned a home I was constantly, CONSTANTLY having projects to just keep it in shape. It really sucked, it was always on my mind. I don't want to learn how to fix houses just to live in them.

      YMMV

    29. Re:Buying is often cheaper by ranton · · Score: 1

      I was renting for a long time until a house in the neighborhood came on the market. We did the math and after mortgage, taxes, insurance, and other fees we came up with 300$ less than what we paid in rent.

      Every area is different, but on average the math sides with renting being cheaper in most areas. I'm not sure if you factored in home repairs in your calculation, as that is the one that nearly everyone forgets when calculating the difference between renting and buying. For a $300k house that would be around $400 per month when amortized over 30 years, and that figure will rise with inflation. The only part of your home that is an appreciating asset is the land, which for most people is around a third of their home's value. The house I bought lost value from 1998 to 2013 mostly because it had never been significantly renovated over that time. It was very livable but needed $100k in upgrades before it could appraise at the $400k price most similar homes in the area sold for.

      It is certainly not true that renting is always cheaper. After the housing crash you could buy foreclosed homes so cheaply that was nearly always cheaper than renting if you could qualify for a mortgage. But in a balanced market owning a home is a luxury item, not a sound investment. Investing in companies is usually the better investment, although that assumes you have the diligence to invest the money you save by renting instead of just spending it. In that case it is a much better idea to buy a house.

      --
      -- All that is necessary for the triumph of evil is that good men do nothing. -- Edmund Burke
    30. Re:Buying is often cheaper by pnutjam · · Score: 1

      In the markets I've looked at, this is never been the case. I could always rent apartments for less per month and much less down. Houses were always more, but the down payment requirement were almost enough to buy.

    31. Re:Buying is often cheaper by pnutjam · · Score: 1

      it's relatively easy to vet/find good tenants through your social network if you're not advertising in public and aren't in an extreme rush to rent the unit.

      it's relatively easy to vet/find good tenants through your social network if you're wealthy and have wealthy family. (FTFY)

    32. Re:Buying is often cheaper by b0s0z0ku · · Score: 1

      You don't want a very wealthy tenant - you want one rich enough to pay the bills, poor enough not to be able to lawyer up if you decide to raise their rent or evict.

    33. Re:Buying is often cheaper by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      My house is already paid off. My quality of life is to be not beholden to work 40 hours a week. It was a struggle and an especially lean decade despite a six figure income.

    34. Re:Buying is often cheaper by HornWumpus · · Score: 3, Informative

      If they double the standard deduction, they've effectively eliminated my mortgage tax deduction.

      --
      John McAfee 'It was like that time I hired that Bangkok prostitute; to do my taxes, while I fucked my accountant'
    35. Re:Buying is often cheaper by TheRaven64 · · Score: 2
      You've hit the nail on the head:

      Buying a house is a pretty good (usually low risk) investment, but it has one significant down side: It ties your investment to your lifestyle. Pretty much any other form of sensible investment is decoupled from anything that you do on a daily basis and so doesn't affect your mobility.

      One of the big problems with globalisation is that it is far easier to move capital than labour and so it disproportionately benefits the individuals whose net work is primarily capital and not their own labour. If we had a functioning labour market, then those people complaining about long commutes and poor salaries for unskilled jobs in Silicon Valley wouldn't complain: they'd move to places with lower cost of living for similar jobs and companies like Google would find that they needed to pay $50/hour to have someone clean their floors and empty their bins. And then they'd move somewhere cheaper and bring their workforce along with them.

      --
      I am TheRaven on Soylent News
    36. Re:Buying is often cheaper by TheRaven64 · · Score: 1

      The other down side is that it is often difficult to get a mortgage. You can't do this on a simple residential mortgage because you need permission to rent from your mortgage provider (if you don't have it and they decide that they don't like you then they can foreclose at any point). To make matters worse, mortgage providers that offer buy-to-let mortgages often have extra conditions if you're buying a property that can be combined with your own, because the conditions are different (they factor rental income into the affordability criteria for a buy-to-let property). If it's the house next door then you can easily combine the two into a single unit and people have got a pair of a residential mortgage and a buy-to-let mortgage and then converted the house into a single dwelling when they wouldn't have qualified for the residential mortgage. When interest rates went up, the bank foreclosed. Now, banks are much stricter to avoid being put in this position.

      --
      I am TheRaven on Soylent News
    37. Re:Buying is often cheaper by 110010001000 · · Score: 1

      OK, those are extreme examples. Those people also have vacation homes in the Hamptons.

    38. Re:Buying is often cheaper by Drethon · · Score: 1

      I suspected there were counter points. My city has ~70k population that borders a city about 10x larger on one side and country on the other. I'm curious if you are in a higher populated area, or it is more about region than population?

    39. Re:Buying is often cheaper by 110010001000 · · Score: 1

      Do you think your landlord isn't factoring in home repairs in your rent???

    40. Re:Buying is often cheaper by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Seven hundred a month for a 20 year mortgage?? Houses in your area must be cheaaaap.

    41. Re:Buying is often cheaper by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Never rent to friends or family, because anyone can fall on hard times and friends/family will expect you to carry them when times are bad.

      I always do a background check (criminal and financial), but have still had several tenants immediately fall ill (cancer and strokes) and lose their jobs or have to retire to a small fixed income. Then it's a year of hit or miss rents hoping they will catch up and being "charitable" before you even begin the eviction process.

    42. Re:Buying is often cheaper by Drethon · · Score: 1

      Seven hundred a month for a 20 year mortgage?? Houses in your area must be cheaaaap.

      This was a somewhat low end house in 2005, just before the market plunge. When I sold it and moved into a slightly larger house the mortgage would have been $450 a month, or less, for 30 year. Tiny houses or fixer uppers can be significantly cheaper.

    43. Re:Buying is often cheaper by djinn6 · · Score: 1

      They know where you live anyways. Who owns which house is public information.

    44. Re:Buying is often cheaper by epine · · Score: 1

      Do you think your landlord isn't factoring in home repairs in your rent???

      You got that entirely backwards. What the poster was saying is that many renters looking to become owners initially neglect to put on their unforgetful landlord hat when making the financial comparison, which advantages owning unfairly.

    45. Re:Buying is often cheaper by tquasar · · Score: 1

      Me and my wife rented for 15 years. A nice 2BR with redwood open beam ceilings,covered patio and was set back from the street and was quiet. My dad gave us $5000 for the down payment and hers paid closing costs. We did a lot of work painting and refinishing the hardwood floors. The mtge payment was slightly greater than the previous rent.

    46. Re:Buying is often cheaper by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      I live in a 1600 ft2 ranch on a one acre lot less than 1.5 mile from the city limits of a major city. My mortgage is around $700 a month and taxes are about $100 a month.

      Much Much cheaper than an apartment in a 4 story building up the street. Plus I do not have to worry about a noisy neighbor.

      Crime is not much of an issue as most of us have the security firm of Smith and Wesson

    47. Re:Buying is often cheaper by AvitarX · · Score: 1

      Where I live rents were pretty stable during the recession (maybe a 10% drop vs houses well over 30%).

      In 07 you were better off renting, in fact a lot of multi home landlords were selling off, as they could get 250k for a house that rented 1k/month.

      Since then both houses and rents have steadily risen, and it's about a wash now (depends on the neighborhood and condition of the house). I suspect we'll hit the healthy market point where rents are about 20% more than mortgage with 10% down soon (no recent sales on my block, but a 200k (estimate) house rents for 1250-1450/month.

      A few years ago there was a lot of fixer uppers on the market too, but they seem to have been purchased and converted to rentals primarily.

      --
      Wow, sent an e-mail as suggested when clicking on "use classic" banner, and got a fast response that addressed my msg
    48. Re:Buying is often cheaper by w3woody · · Score: 1

      The big thing to remember is if you plan to stay in an area less than 5 years (in general), you are much better off renting than buying. Most of the stories I've read about people doing well buying instead of renting (and that includes us; we bought a house in Glendale in 1996 after the Northridge earthquake, and moved out 18 years later to Raleigh, using equity to pay cash for our home here in North Carolina) involve people staying in the same home for many years.

      But if you buy in an area and plan to leave in less than 5 years, at the very least the cost to get the home ready after purchase and the 6% you lose when selling your home will probably eat up any (minimal) equity and appreciation you got in your home.

      Remember: for most of the country, housing prices only go up at roughly the rate of inflation. Only in a few areas (like California, New York, or parts of Las Vegas) do housing prices appreciate substantially faster.

    49. Re:Buying is often cheaper by LynnwoodRooster · · Score: 1

      Santa Monica, San Francisco, downtown Seattle, downtown LA, I could go on and on. Lots of places have a high demand for multi-million dollar condos and townhouses. For people who do NOT have vacation homes in the Hamptons (the person I know who owns a flat in Chelsea in Manhattan doesn't have a vacation home). High density is pretty common for a vast swath of the US, and in those areas if you DO have a standalone home it is often like those in LA or SF or Miami - effectively a zero-lot-line, with at most 3-4 feet between homes. Essentially shared space anyway (check a lot of the places in Boston, SF, DC, Chicago - standalone buildings with 2" of space between them).

      --
      Browsing at +1 - no ACs, I ignore their posts. So refreshing!
    50. Re: Buying is often cheaper by houghi · · Score: 1

      You live in a home all your life. On average renting will be more expensive because as an owner you need to pay the loan. So somebody who rents out wiil also get that money back. And at the end the owner still has a house, a renter does not. Otherwise selling would be wiser. There will be exceptions in both directions.

      --
      Don't fight for your country, if your country does not fight for you.
    51. Re:Buying is often cheaper by dj245 · · Score: 1

      Real-estate is mainly an inflation hedge in the long term. It is helpful for diversification, and it can be something useful for survival, and it is a good way for people that can't save otherwise to be forced into it. It is a poor investment if you need to sell in less than 5-6 years, or if you end up buying a much bigger house than your present needs dictate to accommodate long-term family plans.

      Agree completely except for the last point- "or if you end up buying a much bigger house than your present needs dictate to accommodate long-term family plans."

      We waited until our kids were 5 and 3 before buying a house this year. Transitioning from a 2BR apartment to a 4BR house can be a very time consuming (or costly, if you don't do the work yourself) undertaking. We have spent too many long evenings trying to make the house habitable (previous owner had very naughty dogs). We could have spent this time with the kids. If we had bought when they were younger, the "must-fix" items would have been taken care of before they started walking.

      --
      Even those who arrange and design shrubberies are under considerable economic stress at this period in history.
    52. Re:Buying is often cheaper by AthanasiusKircher · · Score: 2

      It is a poor investment if you need to sell in less than 5-6 years

      Absolutely. And I'd second taking a hard look at the "math," as well as including a lot of unforeseen potential costs of home ownership if you're not planning on staying long-term.

      Most people just do comparisons of rent vs. mortgage+taxes or whatever. There's often a lot more to home ownership. There are transaction fees both to buy and sell, agent fees if you use one, and then you have the real question of how much maintenance really can be.

      If it's a newer home, and you're lucky, maintenance may not be a major cost. If you're looking at an older home and you're unlucky, you may find really expensive stuff once you start tearing open a wall or a floor just to solve what seems to be a "minor issue" in your inspection before buying.

      I bought a home several years back in one of the best neighborhoods in a medium-size city. We specifically looked for a home in a neighborhood that would maintain value in case we needed to sell. Five years later, we needed to sell because of a move. And we did sell -- and relatively quickly, and we got nearly 15% above our buying cost, which sounds good, right?

      Except over the five years there we had to put on a new roof (something we knew going into buying it), then we ended up doing a new HVAC system, complete remodel of a smaller bathroom, and a lot of other miscellaneous things just minimally needed to get the house ready for sale again. In the end, yes, we did end up losing less money over five years than we would have if we had been paying rent for a house of that size in that neighborhood... but not by a huge amount. If we had been renting an apartment or smaller house or something in a slightly less nice neighborhood, we undoubtedly would have saved money over owning for five years, taking into account maintenance, improvements, transaction fees, etc. And this was for an older home that overall was in decent condition and had already been updated significantly by previous owners.

      Over decades of ownership, you will likely build equity and can amortize the costs of maintenance and upkeep over time. But if you're not reasonably certain you'll be living somewhere for at least a decade or so, I'd seriously crunch the numbers and take into account potential unexpected costs if you'd have to resell.

    53. Re:Buying is often cheaper by ranton · · Score: 1

      Do you think your landlord isn't factoring in home repairs in your rent???

      Yes they are, which is why the rent seems high for people who aren't factoring those costs in.

      --
      -- All that is necessary for the triumph of evil is that good men do nothing. -- Edmund Burke
    54. Re:Buying is often cheaper by rsborg · · Score: 1

      You don't want a very wealthy tenant - you want one rich enough to pay the bills, poor enough not to be able to lawyer up if you decide to raise their rent or evict.

      This is strange advice. You want a *good* tenant, regardless of ability to "lawyer up" and helps if that person has shared connections (as they will be burning more bridges than just with you if they go nuclear).

      A good tenant is happy to keep the place clean and is not shady. A more affluent tenant is great because they're more worried about their image and less likely to be forced to sub-sublet the place (AirBnB) or deal drugs/etc.

      You have far more candidates if you a) leave a bit on the table and offer good tenants perks like a slightly lower rent and b) verbally or contractually limited rent raises.

      --
      Make sure everyone's vote counts: Verified Voting
    55. Re:Buying is often cheaper by pnutjam · · Score: 1

      I'm in a suburb of a big city. The biggest tipping point is apartments often rent for about $100 to $200 down, while houses want 1 months rent or more.

    56. Re:Buying is often cheaper by Junta · · Score: 1

      I'd rather keep my income a separate matter from my living arrangements. It's a bit weird to hear so much discussion about capital gains and such, I really don't have a particular interest in selling my house for financial reasons.

      --
      XML is like violence. If it doesn't solve the problem, use more.
    57. Re:Buying is often cheaper by b0s0z0ku · · Score: 1

      The issue isn't income, it's to make your living arrangements cost-free, so you can save more $ per month and have a choice of jobs vs being locked into one by circumstances.

    58. Re:Buying is often cheaper by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      You and the GP totally missed the elephant in the room. Buying is a huge tax writeoff, for the next 25-30 years.

    59. Re:Buying is often cheaper by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      I'm a landlord. By buying, you don't pay towards 5-10% vacancy, at least a $100 month profit, and sometimes a 10% management fee. So your house should be about 15%+$100 cheaper per month than a similar rental house. If it isn't that much cheaper then your landlord was probably losing money*. If it's a lot cheaper than your landlord was doing really well**. The primary benefits you get by owning is you can change whatever you want and appreciation if you sell the house. If you don't sell then eventually you won't have a mortgage payment compared to paying rent for life. The primary benefits of renting is you can move often, don't have to learn how to fix things, and can pretend doing taxes is easy.

      *Ignoring tax benefits, appreciation, and mortgage pay-down***.
      **Ignoring bad tenants who destroy your apartments.
      *** You can take out a loan based on how much you've paid off. For landlord that's like free money since it's all paid for by tenants. For owners you're just extending your mortgage so it's less helpful.

    60. Re: Buying is often cheaper by aaarrrgggh · · Score: 1

      Not everyone lives in the same house for 30+ years. Personally, I usually move every 5 years or so for one reason or another, which is why owning a home isn't a great value for me. If I had kids in school, maybe that would make me think that I need to stay put for 12 years and change the math... but as long as I see myself moving periodically that incentive isn't there.

      But, as an investor, I am happy to own a place and rent it out, even if it is slightly negative on cash flow. Over time the cash flow improves with inflation, and ultimately you have sufficient equity to either leverage up with additional properties or sell for a larger property.

      Typically, owning a home is more of an emotional investment than a financial one. People often get lost in that point.

    61. Re:Buying is often cheaper by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      I'm not going to claim you are wrong as that certainly could be the case. In my personal experience (in the US)...

      People claiming down payment is an issue haven't typically explored their options. The are several programs/options out there that allow for very little down payment for first time home buyers. And even if you don't qualify for one of those, there are low down payment loan options with the main downside being having to pay mortgage insurance until you hit 20% equity. Which if you have a good enough credit and high enough income can often be covered by putting 10% down then immediately taking a second 10% equity loan and applying it to the primary. It is often called piggybacking.

      Also, many people do not take big picture costs into consideration. There are tax "benefits" to owning a home. You can probably deduct property taxes and interest, which might reduce your overall income tax rate. Also most people can exclude up to atleast $250k in proceeds from taxes when they sell their home. Finally, owning a home shows stability and can reduce automobile insurance rates, increase credit scores, etc..

    62. Re:Buying is often cheaper by aaarrrgggh · · Score: 2

      That is one of the easiest things to take into account. Personally, I like the NY Times Rent vs Buy calculator. I had fancier spreadsheets, but this gives you an easy means of screening.

      The hard factors to account for are the relative inflation rates of renting and buying.

    63. Re:Buying is often cheaper by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Many cities have rules that you can't refuse to rent to people with out a justifiable and documented reason. The government's attempt to ensure fair and equal rental passages. I suppose if you only looked word of mouth you could game the system but I know a guy who got sued because he rented one of his apartments to his sister for less than what some black couple were willing to pay. It took about 6 months for it to get thrown out, but I bet he paid another months rent in lawyer fees.

    64. Re:Buying is often cheaper by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      "vast swath" implies you could color a map and make a grand statement.

      I'll give you a hand getting started with a simple county-by-county layout.

      Start with this: http://fs.huntingdon.edu/jlewis/Outlines/Image3.gif

      Open up your preferred paint tool and start flipping any blue areas that are actually low density to red. Places like most of Maine, Northern Minnesota, some of that southern tip of Texas, etc.

    65. Re:Buying is often cheaper by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Not if you bury it inside a corporation and just have a PO box.

    66. Re:Buying is often cheaper by Pfhorrest · · Score: 1

      If this was true, why the hell would anybody ever rent? I am stuck renting a shitty tiny trailer because even saving at the rate I'm saving now it looks like I will barely put away enough money to have paid cash for the cheapest homes at today's prices by the time I retire, and if I were to buy one of those cheapest-available homes now, not only what I'm paying for rent now but nearly 100% of what I'm saving (towards future housing, natch) would be eaten up by mortgage INTEREST alone, never mind taxes, insurance, etc, with negative money left over to pay down the principle.

      If buying were cheaper than renting there would be no point in renting.

      --
      -Forrest Cameranesi, Geek of all Trades
      "I am Sam. Sam I am. I do not like trolls, flames, or spam."
    67. Re: Buying is often cheaper by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Maintenance is 10% of my leasehold mortgage, and the freeholders hassle not mine. But then my building was not built out of twigs or straw (I hope!). Gotta love the Victorians and Edwardians.

    68. Re:Buying is often cheaper by Junta · · Score: 1

      Except I would be forced to have the job of landlord, and all sorts of liability and restrictions inherent in that job. If you have a bad tenant, it's not exactly easy to end that customer relationship compared to most other jobs. I don't think I could do that job and my real job effectively, and my real job covers about three times my spending and I have paid off the house.

      --
      XML is like violence. If it doesn't solve the problem, use more.
    69. Re:Buying is often cheaper by pnutjam · · Score: 1

      Found the realtor.
      Good credit aside...
      Owning a home is identical to renting from the bank for at least 5 years. The only difference is that you have assumed all liabilities. It's a poor bargain for many people.

    70. Re:Buying is often cheaper by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      But you aren't "better off". Some people would trade a grand or two a month to not have to deal with renters, or live in a triplex/duplex. That sounds like a miserable life to me. Amazingly, some people like to live life differently than you do.

      Agreed - while buying is often more costly (definitely not for me in a suburb of Minneapolis, bought in 2010), it's worth paying the extra to cut out a layer of someone literally lording over you.

      Captcha: abused

    71. Re: Buying is often cheaper by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Indeed; the longest I've lived in one place was 8 years (the first house I lived in, as a matter of fact). In the last 3 places I've lived, I've stayed =2 years each!

      For my circumstances, buying a house would have been foolish.

    72. Re:Buying is often cheaper by LynnwoodRooster · · Score: 2

      How about we use a map that shows where people live? For example, half the US population lives in the blue counties identified on this map. Now look at how a lot of the population lives in those counties. For HALF the people in the US, high-priced condos and townhomes are the norm. There is a LOT of empty land where 1+ acre lots are normal, but very few people actually live there. HALF the population lives in those few counties. For vast swaths of people - that is the norm.

      --
      Browsing at +1 - no ACs, I ignore their posts. So refreshing!
    73. Re:Buying is often cheaper by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Nope, not a realtor. I'm a computer engineer who originally worked in the storage industry and then in HPC in the upper midwest.

      I rented (2 bedroom) for almost a year out of college then I bought my first house (3 bedroom rambler) with $5k down on FHA loan. Mortgage was $275 dollars less than rent, and $460 when calculating taxes. I took that extra money and put it toward the principal. Making my mortgage look more like a 13 year but giving some flexibility for unforeseen expenses.

      After doing some home improvement projects (~$30k, all diy), getting married and having a kid we sold the house and made $55k profit(real profit, over and above what we had paid for mortgage, interest,etc.) some of which was appreciation and some was sweat equity.

      Now I'm doing the same thing again, just with a bigger, nicer house and a few acres. The only difference is I rolled all the equity and profit from the first house to this one(not as a down payment because I held both for a couple months while I did some work on each). So on day 0 I put $50k down from savings, about 4 months later I put another $140k(equity+profit) on the mortgage. Now if I just keep paying the mortgage as usual I have about 11 years left...maybe it is closer to 10 now.

      If someone is the type of person who hires everything about home upkeep out (lawn mowing, snowblowing, every repair or improvement, etc.) then you are definitely better off renting, especially in the first few years when payments are almost all interest. For me, I'm paying $1200+utilities a month for a 6 bedroom, 5 bath with my own pool and 3 heated garage spaces. A quick look at the apartment sites online, show 4 bedrooms are going for over $3000 a month.

      I've been very happy with my decisions and have helped/encouraged several younger folks at work to do something similar. I'm sure you are happy with your choices too, that is the great thing about people being different. We can disagree what "many/most" means. I think financially it makes sense for most people, although it does come with certain lifestyle changes that may not make it appealing to many.

      Oh, BTW...thanks for responding. I've successfully resisted signing for a slashdot account for over 15 years, which means as a constant AC I never get mod points and often get dismissed with all the AC trolls.

    74. Re:Buying is often cheaper by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      In the congested areas like cities where the prices are already very high, the rents are rising even faster. Assuming a clean credit record, which many might not have and a sufficient income for the 30-year loans plus any government support for the first time buyers, buyers of certain age and so on, the buying option may be cheaper. "Unclean" credit record of course makes it difficult to even rent, so..

    75. Re:Buying is often cheaper by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Amen. I knew the market was bad when my sister wanted to buy a house with the intention of selling in two years. If your going to move in 2 years you should not be buying. If people are doing that the market is in a bubble.

  6. I rent my car... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    I rent my car...and sleep in it. Hard to get by on 50k in the valley

    1. Re:I rent my car... by Opportunist · · Score: 1

      You can afford a car???

      Look at Mr. Moneybags.

      --
      We used to have a Bill of Rights. Now, with the rights gone, all we have left is the bill.
    2. Re:I rent my car... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      The place is getting too gentrified when people can actually afford shit

    3. Re:I rent my car... by LynnwoodRooster · · Score: 1

      You have a bag and money? Look at the rich snob...

      --
      Browsing at +1 - no ACs, I ignore their posts. So refreshing!
  7. Illegal Aliens by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    With the deportation of the millions of illegal aliens California will have more rental vacancies available for Americans to rent

    1. Re: Illegal Aliens by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1

      Right, because Californians want to live in a shack on a strawberry farm

    2. Re: Illegal Aliens by kaatochacha · · Score: 1

      Californians are already are living in shacks on strawberry farms. It's the only housing they can afford.

    3. Re:Illegal Aliens by drinkypoo · · Score: 1

      With the deportation of the millions of illegal aliens California will have more rental vacancies available for Americans to rent

      Illegal aliens tend to stack up in a rental unit, so to speak. A friend of a friend listed a property for a single or couple only, and got an application from a family of eleven. She said there's no room for that and they said "we don't mind". It's a single bedroom cabin. I don't blame them; I've seen what it looks like where they're coming from. Plywood shacks, if they're lucky. Eleven to a one-bedroom cabin with an interior and exterior wall, and insulation in between, is luxury.

      If we don't want illegals here, we should stop crapping directly upon Central and South America with our drug laws and our foreign policy.

      --
      "You're right," Fisheye says. "I should have set it on 'whip' or 'chop.'"
  8. Who Writes this Crap? by dcw3 · · Score: 1

    "...while the rental market struggled to meet the new demand."

    Really? Yeah, those poor landlords had to raise their rents...oh, the horror.

    --
    Just another day in Paradise
    1. Re:Who Writes this Crap? by drinkypoo · · Score: 2

      Really? Yeah, those poor landlords had to raise their rents...oh, the horror.

      Only a portion of the demand is for higher-rent units. Most of the demand is for units of the same or lower price. Without that demand being filled, people wind up having to commute to work, which is inefficient. The inefficiencies add up, with the commuters adding inefficiency to other businesses depending on the same transportation conduits.

      The landlords are clearly not suffering. Everyone else, however...

      --
      "You're right," Fisheye says. "I should have set it on 'whip' or 'chop.'"
  9. High Rent by armada · · Score: 1

    I own my house outright. It is one of nine homes in a small HOA in Miami FL that are worth about $400k to $450k. There are two rented for $3,500 per month wich sounds insaine considering the property value.

    --
    "This message was sent from an Apple //GS"
    1. Re:High Rent by ranton · · Score: 1

      I own my house outright. It is one of nine homes in a small HOA in Miami FL that are worth about $400k to $450k. There are two rented for $3,500 per month wich sounds insaine considering the property value.

      That seems like a very reasonable rent for a 450k house. If you had a $0 down mortgage on a $450k house with an HOA in Miami-Dade county your costs would probably be about:

      $1600 mortgage interest + $480 property tax + $700 monthly repairs + $420 HOA = $3200 per month. That is a break even cash flow on a house with a 92% occupancy rate. Depending on the HOA rates those rental figures may be a couple hundred more than I would expect but they don't seem outlandish.

      --
      -- All that is necessary for the triumph of evil is that good men do nothing. -- Edmund Burke
  10. There is no housing shortgage by DeplorableCodeMonkey · · Score: 1

    I see new home construction all around us. What I see is a dearth of housing that is suitable for young families as opposed to middle age, dual income families. You want a $600k+ home? No problem. We have a ton of them. What you won't see is anything in the $200k-$300k in major regions that isn't either in the ghetto or looks like it should be.

    This is one of the fatal flaws in "free trade." You can't have "free trade" in land and housing. If wages harmonize between the US and China such that an American worker's wage goes down 25%, the cost of land and housing won't go down with it.

    1. Re:There is no housing shortgage by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      This is one of the fatal flaws in "free trade." You can't have "free trade" in land and housing. If wages harmonize between the US and China such that an American worker's wage goes down 25%, the cost of land and housing won't go down with it.

      Speaking of fatal flaws, we sure as shit saw a considerable drop in land and housing costs after 2008.

      Yes, it can happen because it has happened before.

    2. Re:There is no housing shortgage by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Yes. We've had very cheap money for almost 10 years now. Folks with access to it have been buying up assets - like property. As a result housing prices have increased faster than wages.

      I'm seeing new developments of McMansions and developments of starter homes have been stalled - what little there is.

      Lastly, increasing vacancies is a sign of recession coming. We are also seeing a flattening of the yield curve which is another sign. There won't be a crash, but there is a slowdown on the way and we'll all asset classes have their prices regress to the mean. Meaning, wait to buy that home.

    3. Re:There is no housing shortgage by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      That's because too many idiots are buying houses that are too big and causing there to be no demand for those mid-range houses. Sorry, you lose. And so do I.

    4. Re:There is no housing shortgage by JackieBrown · · Score: 2

      I see new home construction all around us. What I see is a dearth of housing that is suitable for young families as opposed to middle age, dual income families. You want a $600k+ home? No problem. We have a ton of them. What you won't see is anything in the $200k-$300k in major regions that isn't either in the ghetto or looks like it should be.

      This is one of the fatal flaws in "free trade." You can't have "free trade" in land and housing. If wages harmonize between the US and China such that an American worker's wage goes down 25%, the cost of land and housing won't go down with it.

      You know what would hep with this? School choice - whether full on vouchers so I can send my kids to private school or getting rid of districts so I can send my kids to a better public school.

      When I was looking for homes, several areas of town we ruled out solely due to the school district. I can make my home safer but I can't make my kid's school safer. I could have gotten a house 2 times the size of mine if I didn't have to worry about the school my kids would be going to.

    5. Re: There is no housing shortgage by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      School choice is a panacea, you'll still be burdened by the rest of the parents and their choices.

      Not to mention the schools themselves, to think you can do nothing and seek change in competition is foolishly naive.

    6. Re: There is no housing shortgage by ScentCone · · Score: 0

      to think you can do nothing and seek change in competition is foolishly naive

      Except that where it's allowed to work, it usually works really well. The only thing pushing back against it are entrenched lefty entities like teachers union bosses and the city/county councils with which they have an ugly little symbiotic relationship at the expense of students and their families.

      --
      Don't disappoint your bird dog. Go to the range.
    7. Re:There is no housing shortgage by PrimaryConsult · · Score: 1

      I don't want a house. I don't give two shits about lawns, want my sidewalk / driveway clear after it snows, my trash picked up, my water heater and central air always functioning, a non-leaking roof, and not have to even think about any of these things. I also want an office I can have my packages shipped to so I don't have to be present to sign or worry about it being stolen. I get all that with renting. I might be able to get that with condos, but annoyingly, affordable ones with those features in my area all seem to be age restricted 55+. The few unrestricted condos get snapped up quickly, and sell for high prices.

    8. Re:There is no housing shortgage by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Lastly, increasing vacancies is a sign of recession coming. We are also seeing a flattening of the yield curve which is another sign. There won't be a crash, but there is a slowdown on the way and we'll all asset classes have their prices regress to the mean. Meaning, wait to buy that home.

      Yep. We get a recession about every decade or so. We are due.

    9. Re:There is no housing shortgage by b0s0z0ku · · Score: 1

      A recession is just an investment opportunity by another name.

    10. Re: There is no housing shortgage by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1

      School choice is a panacea, you'll still be burdened by the rest of the parents and their choices.

      Not to mention the schools themselves, to think you can do nothing and seek change in competition is foolishly naive.

      If I choose which school my kid goes to, I can choose the one with the least problems. The only way that does not help me is if all schools are equally terrible. Do you really believe that?

      If all schools are equal in "burden by the rest of the parents and their choices", but private schools cost more, then everyone who sends their child to a private school is doing something foolish, and such schools should show no difference in educational attainment. Are you so blind that you think either of those things are true?

    11. Re:There is no housing shortgage by 110010001000 · · Score: 2

      Exactly. This is when renting makes sense. You are also single and have no children.

    12. Re:There is no housing shortgage by jeff4747 · · Score: 1

      The lack of smaller, lower-priced options is a housing shortage.

      And it's largely driven by zoning. If zoning only allows large lots with one house, you're going to get $600k houses built on those lots. You aren't going to get duplexes or condos or anything less expensive.

      That zoning is largely driven by the people who already own houses in the area, since they're the ones who elect the city councils that set zoning. And those residents get the best short-term economic result by making the new houses around them more expensive. So zoning doesn't change or gets more restrictive.

      For example, we bought a house. Two years later, the ex-farm across the road to our subdivision was bought and turned into new houses $200k more expensive than ours. So the value of our home went up. If that same area had been developed into duplexes or condos or apartments, our home value would have likely stayed the same.

      With people voting in their own self-interest, you're going to get zoning that gets those +$200k houses built.

      You're not going to get those inexpensive houses built unless you get zoning changed. And getting zoning changed is going to require people to decide they want to forgo the increase in equity of caused by the new houses built within that zoning. That's hard to do without a very large-scale redevelopment plan that offers the incumbent residents something. For example, creating a new "midtown" with large buildings full of condos, offices and shopping may get the locals to say OK. But a single apartment complex development will never have sufficient draw.

    13. Re:There is no housing shortgage by jeff4747 · · Score: 1

      You know what would hep with this? School choice - whether full on vouchers so I can send my kids to private school or getting rid of districts so I can send my kids to a better public school.

      Because death spirals aren't a thing.

      "School choice" will result in a lottery-like system that screws over some portion of the students. The "good" schools do not have unlimited seats. And parents are going to be highly resistant to closing down the failed schools, because those students will "infect" their good school.

      You fix the schools by fixing the schools. You stop the stupidity of high-stakes testing that is the antithesis of education - memorizing facts is not education. You have to actually spend money on teachers and infrastructure, so you can afford to hire good teachers and put them in buildings that are not collapsing.

      That costs money so people are very interested in charlatans who claim to have a free solution. There is no free solution.

    14. Re:There is no housing shortgage by pnutjam · · Score: 1

      Nowhere near as much as it should have dropped.

    15. Re:There is no housing shortgage by b0s0z0ku · · Score: 1

      And will drop again.

      Interest rates are going up. Next recession is cyclic, probably no more than a year or two from now.

    16. Re:There is no housing shortgage by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      I don't give two shits about lawns,

      At my last apartment, the dogs gave more than two shits on the lawns, that stuff was everywhere. And this was a "luxury" apartment complex. Nobody did anything about it because the staff rotated out so quickly that they had no interest in doing their jobs.

      want my sidewalk / driveway clear after it snows,

      Given a choice between trusting the lowest bidder snow removal service or just taking an hour to do it myself, I would much rather do it myself. Or at least be able to choose the least incompetent service available.

      my trash picked up,

      Every apartment I ever had required trash to be carried out to a dumpster or compactor, sometimes on the opposite side of the complex. With a house, I just wheel a bin or two out to the curb once a week. Couldn't be much easier.

      my water heater and central air always functioning,

      That's not going to happen in either case, all that's different is who has to call for the repair. And you're still paying for it either way.

      a non-leaking roof,

      See above.

      and not have to even think about any of these things.

      You don't think about it when water starts dripping down from the ceiling? Or when the new windows they installed aren't insulated properly? Or when the elevator isn't working? Or when your neighbor's dog pissed the whole way down the stairs and they never bothered to clean it up? Or when the police got called out for yet another domestic dispute? Or when the snow removal idiot nearly ran you over while joy riding in his little skid steer? Or when your rent suddenly jumped by 40%? Because I sure thought about it and that's why I have a house.

      I also want an office I can have my packages shipped to so I don't have to be present to sign or worry about it being stolen.

      I've only ever had one apartment where that was an option. That's far from the norm around here.

      I get all that with renting.

      It sounds like you have the perfect apartment. If you can get everything you want at a reasonable price, then that's an arrangement that makes sense for you. But that's not available for everyone and quite often a house can come out ahead of what is available, especially if you have pets or kids.

    17. Re:There is no housing shortgage by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      I thought the idea of vouchers was to allow the failed schools to actually fail so we can fire the bad teachers without the teachers union being able to do anything about it.

    18. Re:There is no housing shortgage by JackieBrown · · Score: 1

      Right now, if you can't afford to live in a better district or can't afford private school, you are screwed (well your kids are.) Having a different demographic move into failing areas will help the neighborhood as a whole which will eventually lead to better local schools.

        Doing nothing but stating that parents should fix the district school problems (in addition to working their full time jobs) is not a solution that is working. For every parent that will want stricter, tougher schools, you will have 2 parents that see public school as "free" daycare and don't want their kids coming home with schoolwork

    19. Re:There is no housing shortgage by AvitarX · · Score: 1

      Does every school run busses everywhere, or does choice only apply to people that can afford to drive their children and afford before and after care?

      --
      Wow, sent an e-mail as suggested when clicking on "use classic" banner, and got a fast response that addressed my msg
    20. Re:There is no housing shortgage by JackieBrown · · Score: 1

      Are you asking if kids that school buses to schools they are not allowed to attend? I'd say probably no. If you are asking if all districts have school buses, they do in San Antonio and probably any city where the school is outside walking distance.

      For overcrowded schools that have to send kids to another district, the kids do take school buses to get there.

    21. Re:There is no housing shortgage by jeff4747 · · Score: 1

      I thought the idea of vouchers was to allow the failed schools to actually fail so we can fire the bad teachers without the teachers union being able to do anything about it.

      There's a couple things wrong with this.

      First, you can actually fire bad teachers. The teacher's union is not nearly as powerful as claimed. The problem is what do you replace that bad teacher with? We've taken one of the most critically important jobs and pay like it's a step above retail. Which means there's plenty of bad-but-not-that-bad teachers that stay around because their replacement isn't going to be all that much better.

      If you had good teachers, you learned supply and demand works for the labor market too. Good teachers cost more. We are getting what we pay for.

      Second, a failed school doesn't just "poof" away, taking all it's problems with it. As that school fails, it is going to be stuffed with all the problem students. That's the primary cause of the death spiral for a school in an unlimited school choice sysetm.

      The parents at the "good" schools are going to fight like hell to keep that failed school open, so the bad students at that school remain there. Which means the elected officials responsible for declaring a school "failed" are not going to do so. Instead, they will use it as the dumping ground for bad students to make the rest of their schools look good.

    22. Re:There is no housing shortgage by jeff4747 · · Score: 1

      Where, exactly, do I propose doing nothing?

      What I propose is significantly more than "you can send your kids to the good school if your number comes up in the voucher lottery, and maybe that will make rich people move into a poor part of town".

      We are getting what we pay for. If we want better, we have to pay more.

    23. Re:There is no housing shortgage by PrimaryConsult · · Score: 1

      Totally agree, with kids and dogs, definitely would not want an apartment. 2 years of research and blind faith went into my current place (they don't show occupied apartments, and they're never unoccupied long enough to make it to market). The trash chute is clutch.

    24. Re:There is no housing shortgage by JackieBrown · · Score: 1

      How does the school deserve more rights than the students? If the school is failing, let the kids go to a school that is succeeding.

      Building a new classroom, hiring a new teacher, throwing money at the school will not fix a school that has been rotted to the core.

      I remember reading about school choice and civil rights when I was growing up. Separate but equal. Now instead of just grouping kids by color, we can group them by economic status.

    25. Re: There is no housing shortgage by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Except that where it's allowed to work, it usually works really well. The only thing pushing back against it are entrenched lefty entities like teachers union bosses and the city/county councils with which they have an ugly little symbiotic relationship at the expense of students and their families.

      Except for the religious agenda being promulgated that seems to be all too common. Not to mention the profiteering.

      Sorry ScentCone, I get it, your dogma requires you to recite the shibboleth. Same as the testing agenda and your exhortations against Common Core.

      Maybe if you tell more absurd lies, you'll get a prize too.

    26. Re:There is no housing shortgage by AvitarX · · Score: 1

      I'm asking how you have meaningful choice when a large segment of the population doesn't have the luxury of transporting their kids to the school of choice.

      --
      Wow, sent an e-mail as suggested when clicking on "use classic" banner, and got a fast response that addressed my msg
    27. Re: There is no housing shortgage by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      School choice is a panacea, you'll still be burdened by the rest of the parents and their choices.

      Not to mention the schools themselves, to think you can do nothing and seek change in competition is foolishly naive.

      If I choose which school my kid goes to, I can choose the one with the least problems.

      Can you? How sure are you of that? And what does that say about the results of the education? Hmm, nothing. Odd that.

      I guess you didn't realize your oversight.

      The only way that does not help me is if all schools are equally terrible. Do you really believe that?

      Oh, you forgot to answer the quandary I posed, but are ignoring it: What happens when those schools being terrible hurts you?

      Mysteriously you didn't address that.

      If all schools are equal in "burden by the rest of the parents and their choices", but private schools cost more, then everyone who sends their child to a private school is doing something foolish, and such schools should show no difference in educational attainment.

      You seem deadset on your own strawman to joust against. For some reason. Is it because you didn't get educated enough to have a real dialogue with a person, or their problems, but prefer to concoct false arguments to advance a faulty position and expect others to naively go along that?

      Are you so blind that you think either of those things are true?

      Are you so blind that you don't realize that you still face the consequences of what other parents choose about their own children's education?

      There's a reason so many states made it a duty of their government, though sadly it's long been neglected for a variety of reasons. Not so much the fault of the US Department of Education no matter how much the right-wing shills shriek about that though.

    28. Re:There is no housing shortgage by JackieBrown · · Score: 1

      School buses?

    29. Re:There is no housing shortgage by AvitarX · · Score: 1

      So, to allow choice, every school needs to have bus routes expanded to cover much more area?

      That doesn't seem particularly inexpensive to me.

      --
      Wow, sent an e-mail as suggested when clicking on "use classic" banner, and got a fast response that addressed my msg
    30. Re:There is no housing shortgage by Uberbah · · Score: 1

      You know what would hep with this? School choice - whether full on vouchers so I can send my kids to private school or getting rid of districts so I can send my kids to a better public school.

      So you can ratfuck poor students into shit schools while your own kids enjoy rarefied bourgeois air, next the offspring of the real elitist shitbags who's club you desperately wish to be a member of.

    31. Re:There is no housing shortgage by JackieBrown · · Score: 1

      What price do you think is appropriate for our children's education?

      Sometimes getting into a different neighbor is the break from a bad crowd that a kid needs to succeed. Many times the quality of education is higher in other districs

    32. Re:There is no housing shortgage by AvitarX · · Score: 1

      It's not about price, it's about what's the best use of resources (which I suspect would vary by district).

      A 10% budget increase, and longer time spent on the bust could allow universal choice (based on the number of highschools in my district being 3 and current transportation budgets at 4%).

      --
      Wow, sent an e-mail as suggested when clicking on "use classic" banner, and got a fast response that addressed my msg
    33. Re:There is no housing shortgage by AvitarX · · Score: 1

      You could also reduce student teach ratios by three students (10%), or provide a healthy breakfast, or any number of other things.

      --
      Wow, sent an e-mail as suggested when clicking on "use classic" banner, and got a fast response that addressed my msg
    34. Re:There is no housing shortgage by JackieBrown · · Score: 1

      We've taken one of the most critically important jobs and pay like it's a step above retail.

      Either you never worked retail or have no idea what teachers make. Here is a hint that most people miss... divide their anual salary by 9 instead of 12

    35. Re:There is no housing shortgage by jeff4747 · · Score: 1

      How does the school deserve more rights than the students? If the school is failing, let the kids go to a school that is succeeding.

      So....reading. You probably should have learned it in school. That way you'd see the posts talking about the death spiral unlimited school choice would cause. Because apparently you want to forget that not all students will have the option of leaving that "failing" school.

      My solution is to stop the school from failing instead of pretending its something magical we can't control.

      Building a new classroom, hiring a new teacher, throwing money at the school will not fix a school that has been rotted to the core.

      And abandoning a large number of kids to that school to prop up the other schools in the district fixes the problem?

      To fix the problem, you actually have to fix the problem. Schools are a human creation. We built it. If something is broken, we can rebuild it. But we have to stop pretending we are powerless morons that can only hand money over to private entities that do even worse at running schools.

      I remember reading about school choice and civil rights when I was growing up

      Then your school did a very poor job of teaching you. Because it wasn't "school choice". That's a lovely retcon so you can pay more for worse schools.

    36. Re:There is no housing shortgage by jeff4747 · · Score: 1

      Here is a hint that most people miss... divide their anual salary by 9 instead of 12

      Here's a hint from people who actually learned about biology in school: Humans, including teachers, have to eat those other 3 months of the year.

      Teaching is a full time job. It is not seasonal employment. And it never has been seasonal employment.

    37. Re:There is no housing shortgage by JackieBrown · · Score: 1

      Then you get another job or work summer school during those 3 months.

    38. Re:There is no housing shortgage by jeff4747 · · Score: 1

      That would be true if teaching was seasonal employment.

      Teaching is not seasonal employment, and never has been. Teachers get paychecks all 12 months.

      Degrading the profession by claiming it must be seasonal is exactly how you get shitty teachers, and thus "failing" schools.

    39. Re:There is no housing shortgage by JackieBrown · · Score: 1

      "The median annual Teacher Elementary School salary in San Antonio, TX is $55,075, as of November 28, 2017, with a range usually between $45,115-$65,324 not including bonus and benefit information and other factors that impact base pay. And while that might not seem like a lot depending on where you live, it is a lot for San Antonio."

      If you subtract out benefits from my paycheck or lots of other professions (since we have to pay those out of our annual salary), teachers make out very well.

  11. It's gonna improve soon by Opportunist · · Score: 4, Insightful

    Just wait 'til everyone who mortgaged their home to buy bitcoins has to pay that mortgage back, that should put some cheap houses into the market.

    --
    We used to have a Bill of Rights. Now, with the rights gone, all we have left is the bill.
    1. Re:It's gonna improve soon by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      We did the opposite... we sold Bitcoins and bought a house.

    2. Re:It's gonna improve soon by thegarbz · · Score: 1

      Yeah both of those people are screwed.

      Okay facetiousness aside, this happens everywhere all the time. There's constantly people who mortgage their house for utterly stupid reasons. Frequently that doesn't pay back. Bitcoin is just the latest in that trend but it won't have any noticeable effect since all it's done is draw stupid people away from one stupid decision and towards another. I bet the rate of foreclosures won't even register a change when the bitcoin bubble bursts.

    3. Re:It's gonna improve soon by King_TJ · · Score: 1

      How many people do you think REALLY did that, though? I'd imagine it's not much different than the number of people who mortgage a home to have gambling money for the casino or horse racing track.

    4. Re:It's gonna improve soon by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Yeah, all 500 of them...

    5. Re:It's gonna improve soon by Opportunist · · Score: 1

      I don't know, the three driving forces of humanity are greed, fear and greed.

      --
      We used to have a Bill of Rights. Now, with the rights gone, all we have left is the bill.
  12. There is a limit by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Considering folks don't have buckets of cash to just throw away, perhaps the " Rent Crisis " has simply reached the peak of what folks can afford.

    Perhaps folks have figured out that throwing so much away in rent every month is money better spent elsewhere ?

    At least owning a home builds equity.

    Of course all is moot if you live in a golden bubble market area where rent or ownership require absurd monthly payments.

  13. OR, owners no longer up-side-down sell their homes by misnohmer · · Score: 4, Interesting

    In my neighborhood there were a whole bunch of rental homes, all owners who couldn't sell their homes because the home values have dropped (some have been holding onto those since before 2008). This year home prices finally reached pre-2008 levels and a whole lot of those rental homes suddenly went up for sale - owners happy they can finally get rid of them without writing the bank a large check.

  14. Bullshit by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    That's completely fucking bullshit.

  15. The Rent Is Too Damn High! by volodymyrbiryuk · · Score: 1

    Vote McMillan!

    --
    sudo rm -r -f --no-preserve-root /
  16. I'm dubious about the conclusions by Zontar_Thing_From_Ve · · Score: 1

    I'm wondering if some of these numbers are happening because more people are choosing to live together to save money. This could include all sorts of situations that don't involve romance like friends sharing an apartment, college graduates moving back with mom and dad, and so on. It's interesting to note that the actual article didn't paint as rosy a picture as the excerpts above did. It says that people with higher incomes are now renting and a higher percentage of renters are older, white, and have kids (or may just fall into one of those categories). In my metro area, all the new home construction I see is extremely expensive (roughly $500,000 and up) and I have my doubts as to how wise it is to build those expensive homes given that we're not a high cost metro area. I don't really see any new construction that I would deem "affordable" for the average person.

  17. I'd be interesting by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    You might be "interesting" if you actually proofread your own posts. I'd be "interested" in reading something like that.

  18. Renting in Boston... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Yes, it is too high.

    However, the monthly cost to buy, even with 20 percent to put down, is still more and saddles you with maintenance costs either directly or in the form of condo fees and special assessments. You also face the very real possibility that the value deflates, even temporarily, at a time when you need to sell.

    In my late 30s and still saving. I feel for everyone younger. I have no idea how a young couple could pay enormous student loans, buy a home, pay for children, and save for retirement these days. A select few get high pay jobs and the rest may languish always hoping.

  19. Rent is Too High by Eldaar · · Score: 2

    My wife and I had been renting for a few years, paying about $1,350 per month for a 2-bedroom ranch with a fenced in yard. Earlier this year our landlord moved out of state and sold his rentals, giving us 2 months to find a new place. We discovered that our rent was incredibly cheap relative to anything similar: we'd have to pay at least $1,700 to $1,800 to rent anything comparable to what we were living in in the same area.

    It turns out that a mortgage for a similar house around here is about $1,800 to $1,900, so we hurriedly applied for mortgages and got an FHA loan and bought a house before we had to leave the rental. So fortunately I am now a homeowner living in a better house than earlier this year, and paying only a little more than if I were renting. The fact that I know so many people around me renting tells me that they have so little extra income that they can afford to rent, but not the little more it would cost to buy.

    In other words, yes, around here the rent is way too high when it's barely cheaper than buying a home.

    1. Re:Rent is Too High by 110010001000 · · Score: 1

      Rent CAN'T be cheaper than buying for any particular property. A landlord isn't going to rent to you at a loss! I don't know why people continue to post this silliness. Sure, you can find a home that is cheaper to rent compared to buying a different home, but you are comparing apples to oranges. Landlords aren't renting at a loss.

    2. Re:Rent is Too High by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      It turns out that a mortgage for a similar house around here is about $1,800 to $1,900, so we hurriedly applied for mortgages and got an FHA loan and bought a house before we had to leave the rental. So fortunately I am now a homeowner living in a better house than earlier this year, and paying only a little more than if I were renting. The fact that I know so many people around me renting tells me that they have so little extra income that they can afford to rent, but not the little more it would cost to buy.

        In other words, yes, around here the rent is way too high when it's barely cheaper than buying a home.

      There are other possible explanations for the people choosing to rent instead of buying:

      1) The people who are renting think there is a chance they will move far away in the next five years. You compare the mortgage payment with rent. If you might have to sell the house (to move), you would have to pay to fix the place up, pay real estate commissions, and you might not get as much for the house as you payed.

      2) Inertia. Some people will not do the math to figure out what is best. Some people don't want to house-hunt.

    3. Re:Rent is Too High by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Sure it can most mortgages are 30 years, if the landlord bought it a while back and then there was market boom, now all the properties are more expensive but his mortgage is the same. Maybe laws prevented him from raising rent to match the market, or maybe he decided that good renters are hard to come by so keep the good ones.

    4. Re:Rent is Too High by 110010001000 · · Score: 1

      Landlords don't base their rent on their mortgage costs. Some don't even have active mortgages on their property. But they aren't going to price it below a potential mortgage.

    5. Re:Rent is Too High by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      But they aren't going to price it below a potential mortgage.

      I rented a place for five years at below what the mortgage payment would be with 20% down. The owner's cost basis was $303k in 1998. The place appraised for $675k in 2014.

    6. Re:Rent is Too High by 110010001000 · · Score: 1

      No you didn't. Unless your landlord was really dumb.

    7. Re:Rent is Too High by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      I'm a landlord. My costs depend (in) on the price I got the property and the interest rate. Both of these change over time. The same unit may have very different costs depending on when it was purchased and by whom. Lots of properties are cheaper to buy then rent, and lots are cheaper to rent than buy.

    8. Re:Rent is Too High by LynnwoodRooster · · Score: 1

      Go to Shanghai. Apartments sell for 3MM RMB, and with a 40% down payment (required), you end up with a 40,000 RMB/month mortgage. Those apartments typically rent out for 12,000 to 15,000 RMB per month. Most of this is driven by speculation, where the purchaser hopes that the prices keep skyrocketing at 8-10% per year, so they can sell in a few years and walk out with a million RMB. It is an interesting dynamic - more supply than renters, but more demand than supply for buyers.

      --
      Browsing at +1 - no ACs, I ignore their posts. So refreshing!
    9. Re:Rent is Too High by HornWumpus · · Score: 1

      You're just a fucking genius aren't you? Facts aren't going to get in the way of what you BELIEVE to be true.

      Hint: One sign of a property bubble is when rents don't cover mortgages in general. Individual landlords almost always go through a few years of negative cash flow after buying a new property.

      If you ever get to the point where you have money to invest, you will understand. For now, don't you have a letter to santa to write or something?

      --
      John McAfee 'It was like that time I hired that Bangkok prostitute; to do my taxes, while I fucked my accountant'
    10. Re:Rent is Too High by 110010001000 · · Score: 1

      "Individual landlords almost always go through a few years of negative cash flow after buying a new property."

      No landlord is going to charge your LESS THAN THEIR COSTS, unless they are truly dumb. It doesn't make sense.

    11. Re:Rent is Too High by 110010001000 · · Score: 1

      OK again, that is an extreme example. Lets talk about reality.

    12. Re:Rent is Too High by martyros · · Score: 1

      I would have thought the same thing, but when I recently actually looked at rent vs mortgage in my area, mortgage did in fact turn out to be cheaper.

      Remember that there's a barrier to entry to getting a mortgage. Lots of people are never going to be able to save up 25% for a downpayment to get the most preferential mortgage rates (which is what would be required to have decent mortgage payments). (Yet another way it's expensive to be poor.) Additionally, if you're living in a really transitional area, it may be more cost-effective to rent for 2-3 years than to buy, even if you could afford the downpayment.

      --

      TCP: Why the Internet is full of SYN.

    13. Re:Rent is Too High by badzilla · · Score: 1

      Landlords can and do rent to you at less than his mortgage cost on the same property - it's quite common. The landlord is happy to eat the (probably small) loss per month in the hope of a nice capital appreciation. In other words the potential sale price of the property goes up enough per month that it makes the landlord cool with the gap between your rental payment and his mortgage payment. Of course the landlord would ideally prefer not have that gap but rents are extremely market-sensitive.

      This practice is IMO quite mad but it works so long as property prices keep going up, as they currently are in many areas. As soon as they start to decline (areas such as London right now) the wheels very quickly fall off this dopey business model.

      --
      "Don't belong. Never join. Think for yourself. Peace." V.Stone, Microsoft Corporation
    14. Re:Rent is Too High by LynnwoodRooster · · Score: 1

      That is reality. There are ~100 million people living in Shanghai, Shenzhen, Guangzhou. Hong Kong, Beijing. Add in other big cities in Asia (Tokyo, Seoul, Bangkok, Kuala Lumpur, etc.) and you'll probably find close to 300 million people living with those kinds of realities. Life is not at all like you portray, for a large segment of the population. Even NYC, LA, and SF have that same issue - and that's "only" 50 million people (1/6th of the US). A lot of people buy property for speculative reasons, rent out to cover some of the costs - then sell when they figure the return is big enough.

      --
      Browsing at +1 - no ACs, I ignore their posts. So refreshing!
    15. Re:Rent is Too High by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      I like how you don't know what my costs were. Maybe you are the person who used my personal information fraudulently.

    16. Re:Rent is Too High by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Rent absolutely can be cheaper than the owner's payments and often is (or at least often used to be) because of the equity the owner is getting using the rent paid, etc. The owner can rent at 80% of total actual cost and own the house by paying only 20% of its total cost out-of-pocket. They can then sell it for full market value (which is often much higher than 100% of their total actual cost). They still come out with a huge gain in the end. Owning a rental is an investment- there is nothing that says the owner's return on investment must be 100% instead of 80%. Both are very nice returns. But when the demand for rentals is high enough, owners can charge more for rent and get a higher return on their investment, like we have been seeing the past several years.

    17. Re:Rent is Too High by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Rent CAN'T be cheaper than buying for any particular property. A landlord isn't going to rent to you at a loss! I don't know why people continue to post this silliness. Sure, you can find a home that is cheaper to rent compared to buying a different home, but you are comparing apples to oranges. Landlords aren't renting at a loss.

      As a longtime /. reader I know that you're always right. Except ... you're not really. You've conflated two ideas, stuff being cheaper & landlords making a loss.

      I'm a landlord & the rent I charge does not cover my mortgage payment, insurance, HOA fees, repairs & property taxes. It's cheaper for my tenant to rent the property than to buy it.

      OTOH, I'm the one building equity in the property (ahead by ~$200K at the moment, helped by rising market) & there's a possibility that at some point in the next few years as rents rise that it'll actually move to positive cash flow. Even if it doesn't at some point the mortgage will be paid off & it'll produce income then. The property is an investment because I can afford to have a (relatively small) negative cash flow (for now). I have other investments, so my property portfolio is a means of diversification.

      Why don't I just raise the rent now so that I have positive cash flow? Well, there's only so much that the market will bear. Why don't I sell? It'd be stupid to now, rising rents should make the property cash-flow positive in the next few years & the location promises higher values to come.

    18. Re:Rent is Too High by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Landlords have all the same costs of a homeowner plus all the costs of repairs and cleaning between tenants, increased insurance, vacancy costs, and a little bit of profit. Excluding large apartment complexes, rental units should be priced a little above the cost of a new home. Each unit in a building reduces the max rent required, but it isn't a linear relationship. Meaning a unit in a duplex is more around 70% of the total costs rather than 50%. Each unit has its own overhead as they have their own appliances, etc...

      I hope you thanked your landlord for not milking you for rent. He could have raised your rent but didn't.

    19. Re:Rent is Too High by djinn6 · · Score: 1

      Landlords don't base their rent on their mortgage costs. Some don't even have active mortgages on their property. But they aren't going to price it below a potential mortgage.

      Yes they will. By the time they're looking for renters, the mortgage is a sunk cost. If the rental market rate is $300 a month less their monthly mortgage payment, they'll still want to rent it out, because it's still hundreds of dollars less of a loss every month than keeping the property empty. This is the risk they took by buying a property instead of renting one.

    20. Re:Rent is Too High by bingoUV · · Score: 1

      No landlord is going to charge your LESS THAN THEIR COSTS, unless they are truly dumb

      Their "costs" are :

      1. interest payment on their loan,
      2. principal payment on their loan
      3. maintenance
      4. property taxes

      Their benefits are :
      1. Increased property ownership (equity)
              1a. It is a benefit in itself as once you own a property it is difficult to get kicked off it.
              1b. Future rents (even after the mortgage is over)
              1c. Future price of the property itself - (even after the mortgage is over). Useful in case they want to sell, or have to sell due to a contingency
      2. Rent

      Since parts of benefits are speculative and some of them will most likely arrive, it totally makes sense to collect a lower rent per month than current costs for a few years.

      --
      Bingo Dictionary - Pragmatist, n. A myopic idealist.
    21. Re:Rent is Too High by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      It's not a loss if his loan would be smaller than the loan you would need to buy it today. Maybe he's not 'maximising his profits' but that in no way means a loss. He may even be a less risky borrowed than you and qualify for a lower interest rate, or just had a much bigger deposit. Many reasons it's cheaper for him than you. Does he get a tax deduction?

    22. Re:Rent is Too High by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      I think you're forgetting the down payment. It takes a good bit of time before (down payment + N months mortgage/repair/taxes) is less than (N months rent).

    23. Re:Rent is Too High by sodul · · Score: 1

      No landlord is going to charge your LESS THAN THEIR COSTS, unless they are truly dumb. It doesn't make sense.

      Not really true. If the choice Is between leaving the house empty, paying mortgage and property tax, have to no-one notice water leaks and have the property degrade, then having a renter at 80% loss is still better than 100% loss as long as the rental covers the additional cost of having a tenant (occasional repairs, and whatever other taxes and fees).

      There is plenty of reasons why a landlord might want to rent at less than cost, especially if the rental market is temporarily low. Say you need to move out of town for a couple of years due to a work assignment or some family needs, the market has slumped and you are underwater, but you want to come back in the area eventually. You can either leave the house empty, have a friend come look at it once in a while in case the roof gets a leak and make sure skaters do not start using it, or you can have renters for x% of your cost. Especially consider that the mortgage payment is 2 parts: principal + interest. Principal is actually going to equity, back in your pocket in a way. So if the rent covers the interest, property taxes and the insurance, then you basically want to cover that plus some other maintenance fees.

      Say your mortgage is $400k at 3.75% that makes your mortgage payments to be around $2400, $600 for principal, $1800 to interest. Let's say property tax is around $900/month, $100 for insurance per month. Then you could rent for as low as $3500 and still be much better of than not having a tenant as long as $3500 is more than what having a tenant costs you. In the meantime if your house is going up in price, you have a very profitable investment. Sure it does not pay your actual living bills but it is less costly than being forced to sell the house with the associated fees and buy an other one later. This applies if you are underwater, you are better off riding the wave and sit tight until the prices go back up.

      As on other poster mentioned in real life, high inflation areas, mortgages are 2-3 times the cost of rental, yet speculator rent 'at loss' for a few years to cover some of their costs until they cash in with a huge profit a few years later.

      Bottom line it comes do basic fix cost vs variable cost. You shall not rent the house if the cost of having a tenant is higher than what the rental market will let you rent. Your mortgage and insurance have to be paid anyways.

  20. Unprecedented market crash. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    You thought 2008 was bad... Do the simple math with the baby boomer generation.

    Those born from 1945-1958 will be dieing soon, the wealthiest generation who often own multiple homes. In about 5 years as the first year(1945) get sick, they will sell off all their extra properties; and a few years later begin dieing off, leaving those estates to be sold off.

    Theres simply not the numbers to replace them... If immigration steps up, they still won't be able to afford anywhere near the 'value' placed on them now.

    Personally I'm not a fan of the immigration route, as a hundreds of studies show that crime/culture is more genetic than we would like to believe.

    We could see corporations taking up primary residential ownership; and attempt to keep prices high(so as to keep rent high).

    1. Re:Unprecedented market crash. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      > as a hundreds of studies show that crime/culture is more genetic than we would like to believe.
      oh please show us those studies, especially those that correct for economic background.

  21. Houston by JBMcB · · Score: 2

    Houston has had stable rents and housing prices for decades. Even during the worst of the housing collapse, home values only decreased a few percentage points. This is because they do not have zoning laws. This means that occasionally you have something weird like an office building near a residential area, but you don't end up with factories in the middle of apartment buildings as factories are built where land is cheap, and residential areas are relatively expensive.

    So the question is what is more valuable, a stable housing market with a good mix of affordable and expensive homes, or being able to control it? Most of the time you can't have both.

    --
    My Other Computer Is A Data General Nova III.
    1. Re:Houston by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 2, Informative

      Houston has had stable rents and housing prices because they have lots of land and little to no regulation. It's why traffic movement there has steadily declined to the point that it's near NYC levels, except it's standing still on 16 lane freeways. (Proving you can't just build more lanes to solve the problem) More people came in, and instead of revitalizing a neighborhood it's cheaper to build the next few farms down the freeway. Repeat this for several decades, and you now have people commuting 30 miles or more on average, because the inner rings of neighborhoods are all run down and undesirable from any standpoint other than nearness to the city center. Oh, and pollution? You can have factories built right next to schools there. Check out the locations of the paper mills. That alone should be enlightening.

    2. Re: Houston by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Having factories near schools will improve pollution issues. Factories can be built clean. Putting them off in the distance means nobody demands they be built clean.

    3. Re: Houston by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Having factories near schools will improve pollution issues. Factories can be built clean. Putting them off in the distance means nobody demands they be built clean.

      that implies that there is effective regulation, which the scenario already implies is lacking, and is in fact the reason for the area's growth and troubles.

    4. Re: Houston by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      NYC has a subway system which rivals London in terms of use and convenience. And unlike other us burbs, places like Brooklyn are seeing a reverse movement back into the city. Albeit with a huge rise in housing prices , even as they build medium rise housing.

  22. home-owner by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    -Belgium. Home-owner like about 60% of households here. age:40-45. Brick house, 150m2, nearly paid off. part-time software engineer.

  23. Best thing for a young family... by b0s0z0ku · · Score: 1

    Isn't a condo, or a townhouse, or even a "starter home." It's a clapped out duplex that they can renovate. It's lovely to have someone else (tenants, babeh!) paying most of your mortgage and property tax at age 35.

    1. Re:Best thing for a young family... by 110010001000 · · Score: 1

      Unless you don't want to be tied down with complaining renters who live next door to you in a shared wall. Many people want to live in houses and spend time with their family, rather than taking care of renters.

    2. Re:Best thing for a young family... by b0s0z0ku · · Score: 1

      How often do you do home repairs to your own home? Multiply that by two and it's still a small part of your life.

      Also, rent a bit under market and discreetly hint that the tenants are lucky to still be paying under market -- they tend not to complain then.

  24. Bought and paid off in 13 years. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    San Diego's East County. No more rent and no more nazi landlords.

    1. Re:Bought and paid off in 13 years. by b0s0z0ku · · Score: 1

      Soon you can buy another property in the next crash and rent the old one to some other "good family" for income. BECOME that n*zi landlord.

    2. Re:Bought and paid off in 13 years. by ScentCone · · Score: 2

      Soon you can buy another property in the next crash and rent the old one to some other "good family" for income. BECOME that n*zi landlord.

      I love it when liberals who use the word Nazi show so plainly just how incoherent their thought process is. And what terrible students of history they actually are. It explains a lot.

      --
      Don't disappoint your bird dog. Go to the range.
    3. Re:Bought and paid off in 13 years. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Apparently you never rented.

    4. Re:Bought and paid off in 13 years. by b0s0z0ku · · Score: 1

      If you didn't get the irony, I was mocking the original posters use of the word. I aspire to become a hard-ass landlord.

    5. Re:Bought and paid off in 13 years. by ScentCone · · Score: 1

      Apparently you never rented.

      Because only people who rent realize that landlords send out brownshirts to beat people who oppose them politically and then kill millions and try to take over Europe?

      --
      Don't disappoint your bird dog. Go to the range.
    6. Re:Bought and paid off in 13 years. by IMightB · · Score: 1

      I rented for many years, and was in the position to buy 2 duplexes and a single family house during the recession, I am currently loving life because I'm renting out the duplexes for far more than my mortgage. I do not consider myself a Nazi Landlord at all, and over the summer, I spent about 30K on fixing up my duplexes, because I figure that the people that pay me money deserve the improvements, now my rentals are nicer than my single family, which I live in, with the exception that they have less land.

    7. Re:Bought and paid off in 13 years. by IMightB · · Score: 1

      Not with your taste in foreign cars....

    8. Re:Bought and paid off in 13 years. by b0s0z0ku · · Score: 1

      Deserve? No. They deserve to have a clean space with working/reliable appliances and fixtures. No frills unless you can get more in rent than you put in paying for them.

    9. Re:Bought and paid off in 13 years. by IMightB · · Score: 1

      I am getting more in rent... My ROI is 10 months... basically, for those 30K in improvements which we're pretty much financed same as cash (0%) over 12 months and enabled me to drastically increase my rents. For what those improvements cost me, I basically will spent 10 months just breaking even on them, and starting on month 11, I'll be cash flowing better than what I was before.

  25. I dont understand. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    I got half acre 3 bed 2 bath for 125,000 and a rate of 3.5. You rent instead of jump on things like this.

    Soon will be paid off.

  26. Donâ(TM)t rent by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Never rent. Always buy/own even if itâ(TM)s a shack in the boonies. Always live in a house with a garden or land â" ideally measured in acres. Why? Because if you get fired or caught up in some scandal such that you canâ(TM)t get a decent job you can always live out on your land. Just knowing that reduces your level of stress and feeling of enslavement. Life should be about being productive while not feeling pressured to work for fear of losing everything. Ideally you would own a home in the country but live and work in the city.

    Also I donâ(TM)t like living in high rise buildings it is kind of scary.

  27. Expensive rentals by cmdr_klarg · · Score: 1

    I was divorced 3 1/2 years ago, and the ex and I sold our house. I was house hunting and was not having much luck, so I was looking into renting.

    This is a college town, so rentals were super expensive and not much available. Finally found a house, 3 bedroom rambler, bit of a fixer-upper, but certainly livable while I update it. My house payment is HALF what the rental on a similar apartment would have been. Plus I have plenty of quiet and privacy where I am at now, something impossible with apartments. There were some apartments I could have for a similar cost but they were absolute shitholes.

    --
    THE SOFTWARE, IT NO WORKY!!!
  28. I decided to rent by gurps_npc · · Score: 2

    Two years ago I owned my own home with over 75% equity in the home. Now I rent. Mainly because I live in NYC and when you live in NYC, the mortgage + taxes + maintenance often exceed the cost to rent.

    In other words, rent is cheap compared to buying (although it is very high as compared to most of the rest of the country).

    When you buy real estate in most of the US, you are both saving money and doing a reasonably safe, reasonably profitable investment.

    But in NYC, particularly Manhattan, you are most likely to be spending MORE money every month to buy rather than less, and investing in a riskier, high profit investment. I decided that it was too high risk for more and I did not have the extra cash to do it.

    --
    excitingthingstodo.blogspot.com
    1. Re:I decided to rent by b0s0z0ku · · Score: 1

      Buy in Jamaica. I don't mean the nation, I mean the part of Queens. You can get a comfortable house within walking distance of the subway for about $200-300k, maybe even a fixer-upper duplex.

      Oh, and good South Asian and Latin American food all around you :)

    2. Re:I decided to rent by PrimaryConsult · · Score: 1

      I hope you don't mean South Jamaica. My friend who grew up there would joke that the reason there was so much street parking is teams of a dozen guys carrying parked cars down to the chop shop. And a rap lyric that went something like "I come from South Jamaica Queens, where they beat you up and take your jeans. Most these kids put a toaster in your ribs!"

      Fun things to think about while waiting for the Q112...

      On the other hand, they are (finally) building some tall non-luxury apartments within walking distance of Jamaica LIRR station. *That* is an area that is long overdue for redevelopment. Considering how much LIRR and subway service goes there, Jamaica should be NYC's equivalent of Shinjuku, Tokyo.

    3. Re:I decided to rent by DarkOx · · Score: 1

      Come on that doesn't wash!

      If the 'cost' of renting was lower than ownership there would be no rentals. Sure there are some small economies of scale managing multiple properties but that does not explain it. Rentals exist for two reasons.

      1) Some people don't want to commit to a large illiquid asset when they know they might want to move in the foreseeable future.

      2) As a function of capital. You need a home and do not have / are unable to raise the required capital for a cost lower than the premium a land lord will charge. Possibly you have the capital but do not have the ability to absorb unexpected capital outlays like repairs.

      Renting necessarily costs more.

      --
      Repeal the 17th Amendment TODAY! Also Please Read http://www.gnu.org/philosophy/right-to-read.html
    4. Re:I decided to rent by b0s0z0ku · · Score: 1

      I mean along the Jamaica Ave corridor, east of LIRR and the new apartments. It's slightly rough, but not that rough, and very few Starbucks' and other signs of hipsterization in sight. I count this as a good thing.

    5. Re:I decided to rent by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      I agree - I've only been robbed like 6 times!

    6. Re:I decided to rent by b0s0z0ku · · Score: 1

      Another anonymous "coward" cloaking his cowardice in humor :^)

      I walk in that area frequently (in fact, am dating someone who lives there) and have never been robbed. Nor has she, despite having lived there a good part of her life.

    7. Re:I decided to rent by LynnwoodRooster · · Score: 1

      Speculation. Check out Shanghai, Hong Kong, Shenzhen, and to a lesser extent Bangkok and Singapore. Even Santa Monica suffers from it today (as does a portion of San Francisco). People buy properties based upon speculation that the value will grow at 10-15% per year (or more), and thus consider it an investment. They will rent just to defray some of the costs and keep insurance rates down - better to lose a little money than a lot of money. But the thinking is, if you can afford to swing the mortgage, and are looking for a short-term (2-5 year) ownership to gain equity, then buy the most you can afford, and rent it out for whatever you can get, even if it doesn't cover costs.

      --
      Browsing at +1 - no ACs, I ignore their posts. So refreshing!
    8. Re:I decided to rent by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      I walk in that area frequently (in fact, am dating someone who lives there) and have never been robbed. Nor has she, despite having lived there a good part of her life.

      #brownPrivilege

    9. Re:I decided to rent by Actually,+I+do+RTFA · · Score: 2

      I love when people say that the facts don't agree with the theory, so therefore the facts are wrong.

      --
      Your ad here. Ask me how!
    10. Re:I decided to rent by gurps_npc · · Score: 1

      This is wrong in Manhattan. Yes is is true in most of the world. But in areas of high value, speculation on future profits have driven purchase prices sky high. People are renting out just to cover/reduce the costs, not to make a profit, trusting that as the market goes up their profit will come from the sale, not the rental income.

      Here: is a real world example from Manhattan:

      https://www.trulia.com/propert...

      For sale at $649k. Estimated Mortgage = $3,760 per month (apparently includes maintenance, insurance and taxes).

      Total square feet = 498.

      From this website:
      https://www.zillow.com/homes/f...

      It says a condo 2 floors above, with the same 498 sq ft, rents for $2450/month.

      So assuming you get the same rent, that means you pay $3760/month to own, get $2450/month for rent.

      That is the reality of owning in Manhattan.

      People make money by buying and holding. Over time, the value of the apartment goes up and eventually you can choose to rent it out at a profit.

      But that assumes the real estate market goes up. It's ripe for a bubble bursting that could wipe out people's life savings.

      --
      excitingthingstodo.blogspot.com
    11. Re:I decided to rent by b0s0z0ku · · Score: 1

      HDFC if you can make the income requirements. Hint.

    12. Re:I decided to rent by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Twenty years ago, Bangkok didn't tax unused property, leading to all sorts of crap. People would buy a lot, start building a structure, run out of money, and leave it there half-finished. It didn't cost anything to own it, and they figured they'd finish building when they got some more cash.

      A rarely-appreciated feature of property taxes is that it encourages land use. You don't end up with a ten-year-old concrete stonehenge here; the owner gets sick of paying taxes and sells the land to someone who will do something with it.

  29. Self driving cars by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Rent and the price of homes should reduce if there are self driving cars or vans. You can commute two hours each way if your vehicle is self driving. You can sleep in the car or take work calls. Hmm working on commute might become a thing. Though I would prefer sleeping.

    1. Re:Self driving cars by b0s0z0ku · · Score: 1

      You're still stuck in a G-d damned glass and steel sensory deprivation bubble without ability to get up and stretch your legs for 20 hours (2hr * 2 * 5 days/wk) a week. And gaining weight as you munch on your Fritos during your commute.

      Sounds like a cr@ppy way to live, but some idiots will opt to "live" that way.

  30. xurbs by smchris · · Score: 1

    12-1/2 months ago we left 25 years in a metro rental complex in the Mpls/St. Paul beltway when the gentrifying new owners raised the rent on the townhouse three times in a year. Exiled to a mortgage in the far xurbs 25 minutes from the beltway. At least an M-F city bus terminal ends a mile+ away. I would say our market is just heating up on moving the non-well off out. "Maturing" into a typical world metro market perhaps.

    1. Re:xurbs by IMightB · · Score: 1

      Did you not sign a lease? Or were you going from month-month? cause if you had a lease your price should have been locked in, unless it had a clause saying that they could do that. If it did, depending on your local laws, it may have been an invalid clause. Did you ever talk to a lawyer about it?

  31. It is dumb to own a home in USA, by 140Mandak262Jamuna · · Score: 5, Insightful
    Especially now.

    It is incredible for 60% of the Americans, the home they live forms more than 50% of their networth!. Homes are very very illiquid. It ties you down. You are not able to follow the economic trends and go where the jobs are. Makes you do stupid things to "protect the value of home". They are expensive to maintain. It is really a dumb way to save money. Renting is a far better solution for most Americans.

    This especially true now. The babyboom peaked in 1952, and their retirement is peaking in 2017. The market is awash with four bedroom, three car garage, quarter-to-half acre lots. The demand will fall, not rise for these properties. Younger generation is not as car obsessed as the previous generations. They do not see the point in maintaining lawns or raking leaves. Any fool buying a half a million four bedroom 0.5 acre lot home in the suburb today would be lucky to sell it at cost 20 years from now.

    You can add me to that list of fools. I could not convince my own wife about this. "Millions of people can't be fools. We do what they (meaning richer White people) do". Lucky for me, I can secure my retirement even if lock away half a mill in such a non performing asset. So I agreed to be smack dab right in the middle of affluent white neighborhood. Government always takes care of them, so I would not lose much.

    But for younger generation starting out, "stay away from owning homes. Wait for a down turn, buy only if the mortgage is less than rent, and you are assured of job safety for 20 years, and you are planning to stay in that neighborhood for 20 years. Always watch the affluent white class is doing and do that". Invest in index funds. Put 33% in SDY, VNQ or such high dividend yield large cap. 33% in MidCap, 33% in SmallCap. Treat your credit card limit as the emergency funds. You have six month lead time to cash in some securities. Don't fall in love with cars. Start with civic, corolla level, and upgrade to pilot, crv, rav4 level. Don't pay for luxury car brands. Enjoy life.

    --
    sed -e 's/Chuck Norris/Rajnikant/g' joke > fact
    1. Re:It is dumb to own a home in USA, by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Yes and no. This really depends on your housing market. Here in lovely Washington DC we failed to experience the massive crunch when the housing bubble collapsed. Sure, values dropped here some but we didn't have dozens of homes sitting on the market.

      Values can't drop here anyway. Property taxes are tied to home values and since the county values the homes, values are very unlikely to decrease much. It's really that simple here.

    2. Re:It is dumb to own a home in USA, by b0s0z0ku · · Score: 2

      The county sets a "tax value" -- it doesn't mean the home will actually SELL for that value.

    3. Re:It is dumb to own a home in USA, by 110010001000 · · Score: 2

      Bad advice. Renting a house is paying someone else's mortgage. Landlords aren't renting for kicks: they want to make money ON TOP OF paying off the mortgage and taxes, and maintenance costs, etc. Renting will always be more expensive than a mortgage for any particular property, it has to be. Renting an apartment is fine, but renting a house is really not too smart financially, unless you know you aren't going to live in an area for a significant period of time. Of course, if you don't care about the financial aspects and don't want to get tied down to a property then renting is fine too. But don't make it out to be financially sound.

      It has nothing to do with "being white" either.

    4. Re:It is dumb to own a home in USA, by 140Mandak262Jamuna · · Score: 1, Interesting

      Put 33% in SDY, VNQ or such high dividend yield large cap. 33% in MidCap, 33% in SmallCap.

      Do not put money in SP500 it is market cap weighted, and all the bubble companies producing no real income dominate that index. Large Cap Value, dividend index funds are better choices. Stay away from DOW. It is stupidly price weighted dumb thing. 100 years ago thats the best you could do. Not now.

      If you can invest in only one fund, do it in SP400 midcap. No small company riff-raf. Growing companies enter, grow big, graduate to SP500. You will catch companies on the rise, and cash out regularly when they get into SP500. One mistake people do is to hold on to "successful" investment for too long, they feel emotionally attached to a good buy. SP400 will regularly sell winners and lock in the profits. It will also catch companies falling out of SP500, beaten down stocks, that often rebound, again regular profit making. Not without risk, companies fall out of SP500, into 400, and then fall so low, it goes private or gets bought up. Some loss there. But unemotional detached periodic profit taking is the hallmark of SP400. It will triggers taxable distributions. If you are concerned about that go for Vanguard midcap index.

      SmallCap is also good, it routinely produces a bumper crop of growing companies that get in and get taken over at a hefty premium.

      Stay away from owning homes. But do buy VNQ real estate will produce nice inflation adjusted returns. Become a landlord through VNQ, not a homeowner anxiously sitting over a plywood and Tyvek wrapped wooden frame plagued with creaky floor boards and leaky toilets. Rent, call the landlord to come and fix it.

      --
      sed -e 's/Chuck Norris/Rajnikant/g' joke > fact
    5. Re:It is dumb to own a home in USA, by b0s0z0ku · · Score: 1

      DON'T buy VNQ real estate. Buy rental property. The kind that you own and put sweat-equity into and collect rent yourself. Not the kind where Wall Street scum take 50% of your profit while laughing at you.

    6. Re:It is dumb to own a home in USA, by 140Mandak262Jamuna · · Score: 1
      I don't want to sweat. I am not that handy with home maintenance. I am not into unblocking toilets or cleaning ovens when they vacate.

      I would pay the Wallstreet dogs a share of the rent for them to fetch me a good return.

      --
      sed -e 's/Chuck Norris/Rajnikant/g' joke > fact
    7. Re:It is dumb to own a home in USA, by 140Mandak262Jamuna · · Score: 1, Insightful
      If you buy a home, you are stuck with it. If switch jobs to the other side of the town, you spend 10 hours more on commute, gas, car maintenance. You can't even think of taking a better paying job in another town. You are not taking into account the opportunity costs. If your town goes down, find a booming town and move. Let the landlord worry about the vacant property.

      You need a larger four bedroom three car garage half acre lot for just 20 years when the children are in school. Once they go to college you are better off in a condo. Before kids you are better off in an apartment. For that 20 years, if your job is stable and you are comfortable, by all means buy a home. But do not make home ownership with investment. These two are different.

      --
      sed -e 's/Chuck Norris/Rajnikant/g' joke > fact
    8. Re:It is dumb to own a home in USA, by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      No, renting is not always more expensive than a mortgage, as many renting out homes bought houses when prices are lower. Where I am a mortgage plus maintenance costs is probably amounts to 1.5 times rent, assuming a 25% deposit. Hence I would not be able to buy a home and rent it out. A lot of the homes available for rent were purchased over fifteen years ago.

    9. Re:It is dumb to own a home in USA, by dave562 · · Score: 1

      This advice does not make any sense. If you can afford property, it is a great investment.

      Who do you think people are going to be renting from? Hint, it is not other renters.

      You might want to take this with a grain of salt, because I am a sample size of one here. But growing up, I watched (and helped my parents) buy, fix up and flip the occasional home. (Buy the least expensive home in the most expensive neighborhood you can afford.) They did a pretty good job of timing the market (with a few misses) and ended up with one primary home and two rental homes. They recently sold the rental homes and now own a couple of small (4 unit) apartments, plus their primary residence.

      They are set for retirement, and have property to pass along to the family. Over the course of a generation, they have firmly cemented our family as upper middle class. We will never be rich, but unless someone picks up a massive drug habit or makes some extremely stupid investments, our family is going to be okay. That never would have happened with index funds.

      Given the rise of the yuan and the inevitable decline of the dollar, it seems insane to trust the stock market with your "wealth". Real wealth is physical. Everything else is just imaginary and subject to the whims of powers far beyond what an individual can control. As soon as the BRIC nations knock out the dollar peg to oil, the US economy is going to be in some serious shit that not even our military can "fix".

    10. Re:It is dumb to own a home in USA, by 110010001000 · · Score: 1

      You aren't "stuck with it". Amazingly, you can actually sell a house. They even have people who make a living selling and buying houses! I know, amazing, right? In fact, I know people who actually have SOLD THEIR HOUSE and moved to a different town! Amazing, but true. Some of us are secure enough financially that we don't need to move when we lose any particular job.

    11. Re:It is dumb to own a home in USA, by MeNeXT · · Score: 1, Insightful

      Not sure what the point of your rant is. Are you stating that the population will decline in the future? Are you stating that landlords lose money?

      The math is very simple. Rent = mortgage + maintenance expenses + taxes + operating costs + provision for future repairs + profits + inflation

      The return for the landlord is (provided you did the research and didn't buy into the bubble); profit each year, value of the house appreciates with at least inflation, mortgage payments stop after 20-30 years.

      It also has some benefits depending on your situation such as; no noisy kids jumping on your head in the apartment above.

      Some disadvantages like dealing with idiots who don't respect other people. Make sure you vet the potential tenants.

      Now most people compare 2000 square foot house ownership with a 500 square foot apartment and then claim it's obviously more expensive to own.

      As a landlord I would like to thank you because without people like you I wouldn't be making 50% annual operating profit or over 20% on initial investment, and still growing. Not to mention the appreciation in value when the day comes that I sell. Even if it burns and the insurance refuses to pay I still have enough squared away to rebuild.

      Again thank you that you can't see that after time owning a house is considerably cheaper than renting.

      --
      DRM? No thanks, I'll just get it somewhere else...
    12. Re:It is dumb to own a home in USA, by 110010001000 · · Score: 1

      "No, renting is not always more expensive than a mortgage, as many renting out homes bought houses when prices are lower."

      Wrong. Landlords aren't dumb. They know what a rental is worth. They don't base their rent on what they originally paid for the house.

    13. Re:It is dumb to own a home in USA, by 110010001000 · · Score: 2

      "Now most people compare 2000 square foot house ownership with a 500 square foot apartment and then claim it's obviously more expensive to own."

      Bingo. You see that a lot here.

    14. Re:It is dumb to own a home in USA, by edtice1559 · · Score: 1

      You can rent it out and become the profit-making landlord!

    15. Re:It is dumb to own a home in USA, by DaMattster · · Score: 1

      Especially now.

      It is incredible for 60% of the Americans, the home they live forms more than 50% of their networth!. Homes are very very illiquid. It ties you down. You are not able to follow the economic trends and go where the jobs are. Makes you do stupid things to "protect the value of home". They are expensive to maintain. It is really a dumb way to save money. Renting is a far better solution for most Americans.

      This especially true now. The babyboom peaked in 1952, and their retirement is peaking in 2017. The market is awash with four bedroom, three car garage, quarter-to-half acre lots. The demand will fall, not rise for these properties. Younger generation is not as car obsessed as the previous generations. They do not see the point in maintaining lawns or raking leaves. Any fool buying a half a million four bedroom 0.5 acre lot home in the suburb today would be lucky to sell it at cost 20 years from now.

      You can add me to that list of fools. I could not convince my own wife about this. "Millions of people can't be fools. We do what they (meaning richer White people) do". Lucky for me, I can secure my retirement even if lock away half a mill in such a non performing asset. So I agreed to be smack dab right in the middle of affluent white neighborhood. Government always takes care of them, so I would not lose much.

      But for younger generation starting out, "stay away from owning homes. Wait for a down turn, buy only if the mortgage is less than rent, and you are assured of job safety for 20 years, and you are planning to stay in that neighborhood for 20 years. Always watch the affluent white class is doing and do that". Invest in index funds. Put 33% in SDY, VNQ or such high dividend yield large cap. 33% in MidCap, 33% in SmallCap. Treat your credit card limit as the emergency funds. You have six month lead time to cash in some securities. Don't fall in love with cars. Start with civic, corolla level, and upgrade to pilot, crv, rav4 level. Don't pay for luxury car brands. Enjoy life.

      "Buying" into the American consumerist way of life has brought me to where I am at now: disabled, broke, and hopeless. A home might as well be a B.O.A.T. except, instead of Bring On Another Thousand, it should be Bring On Another Ten Thousand. If I had lived well below my means and simpler, I would be that much farther ahead.

    16. Re:It is dumb to own a home in USA, by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      I even know people who rented their old house, and with that money they paid the mortgage for the new house!!

    17. Re:It is dumb to own a home in USA, by jeff4747 · · Score: 1

      You give utterly terrible advice.

      My house has gone up 33% in 2 years - admittedly an oddity of where it is located, since it is an area that is gentrifying. And keep in mind I only paid 20% of the cost of the house, so the ROI on that appreciation is huge. Also, it was an investment with virtually no down-side risk, since I bought at the bottom of our local market.

      We also chose our city based on "where the jobs are", so that isn't a factor - pick where the jobs keep being instead of chasing the latest boomtown. Moving from boomtown to boomtown isn't the economic dream you seem to think it is, and it utterly fucks up your kids jumping from school to school.

      Those investments you propose do not have that ROI. Also, what do you think is going to happen with those stock market funds when the Boomers have to sell to fund their retirement and increasing medical costs?

    18. Re:It is dumb to own a home in USA, by albeit+unknown · · Score: 1

      A dividend focus is no longer valid. Companies are turning to stock buybacks as the method to return capital to shareholders instead.

    19. Re:It is dumb to own a home in USA, by albeit+unknown · · Score: 1

      That appreciation is due to low interest rates. People buy based on a monthly payment, not the top line price. As interest rates rise, the purchase price possible with a given monthly payment will drop. Houses stop appreciating in value, at best, or perhaps even start falling.

    20. Re:It is dumb to own a home in USA, by HornWumpus · · Score: 1

      The federal government isn't 'fixed' until DC real estate crashes. Seriously.

      --
      John McAfee 'It was like that time I hired that Bangkok prostitute; to do my taxes, while I fucked my accountant'
    21. Re:It is dumb to own a home in USA, by 140Mandak262Jamuna · · Score: 0
      Really? End of the year, I rebalanced my portfolio. In my 401K account I sold a quarter mill and bought quarter mill. Total trading cost, in nine securities, was less than 100$. Took me all of half a day to decide what to sell and what to buy.

      As I said in the first posting, we spent 18 months to find a half mill home, 9K in stamp duty, title insurance and buyer agent commission. The old home is sitting on the market for 80 days now.

      You are stuck with a home. No doubt about it.

      --
      sed -e 's/Chuck Norris/Rajnikant/g' joke > fact
    22. Re:It is dumb to own a home in USA, by 140Mandak262Jamuna · · Score: 1

      True, if you are handy with small jobs and maintenance work, it would make sense to own homes and rent.

      --
      sed -e 's/Chuck Norris/Rajnikant/g' joke > fact
    23. Re:It is dumb to own a home in USA, by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      so about 1/3rd of my net worth is in my house...
      My mortgage, insurance, property tax and repairs add up to about $1,000 a month.
      Quick internet search suggests I can get an apartment for that same price, it's roughly half the size, two fewer bedrooms one less bath...

      So twice the house for the same price... apartments of a similar size cost twice the price.

      But let's put that aside, let's say I could get the same sized place, for the same price... let's say that I did that, back when I bought my house in '09. I'd have paid rent for almost 9 years now, and I've have a networth about that is roughly 1/3rd lower because I'd have gained no equity from the house...

      Just to be clear, your argument is that people shouldn't get equity instead they should rent, and in doing so rather than having 50% of their net worth tied up in a house, they should have a networth that is 50% lower.

      Great advice for how to keep people poor... in the meantime keep spreading those lies, because I'm thinking of buying up some rental properties so I too can fleece people who are bad at doing math.

    24. Re:It is dumb to own a home in USA, by 110010001000 · · Score: 1

      Amazingly there are people (we call them "estate agents") who sell houses regularly. Over 5 million existing homes were sold in the US this year. Just because you made a poor choice doesn't mean no one else can sell a home. And if you can't sell it, rent it. Isn't that what you argued for?

    25. Re:It is dumb to own a home in USA, by inking · · Score: 1

      You can add me to that list of fools. I could not convince my own wife about this.

      I think that is a problem quite a few people are facing. No matter how sound your decision is, if your wife is not willing to not own a home like her peers, you are just screwed. The dream of owning a home is way too ingrained into our culture.

    26. Re:It is dumb to own a home in USA, by 140Mandak262Jamuna · · Score: 1

      Yes, I would consider renting it, but I am not that good with home repairs and handyman work. So after counting labor the return is too poor. I will cut the price and sell it and invest it better. But anyway it is a very small portion of my portfolio. Not worth the trouble.

      --
      sed -e 's/Chuck Norris/Rajnikant/g' joke > fact
    27. Re:It is dumb to own a home in USA, by 140Mandak262Jamuna · · Score: 1

      Over 5 million existing homes were sold in the US this year.

      Think about it. 25000 homes every working day (200 / 365). Billion shares trade every day. Which is more liquid? Think scientifically. Do not be swayed by emotions and anecdotal evidence. You need a place to live. You need to pay for it. Do not mix it with investment. For a 20 year stretch of time in your life, it would make sense to live in a four bedroom, three car garage, half acre suburban home. If the timing works out, it might even make sense to own it. But, do not call it an investment.

      Home is where you live. Investment is where you money lives.

      --
      sed -e 's/Chuck Norris/Rajnikant/g' joke > fact
    28. Re:It is dumb to own a home in USA, by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1

      The best of both worlds. Buy a home somewhere you think you may like to retire in the future. Rent it out. Get someone else to pay off your mortgage/tax and take a little profit off the top. By the time you retire your home is paid off. You still rent somewhere modestly priced to give you flexibility to move for work. If you can manage to find a place to rent cheaper than what your mortgage might have been, stick the difference in some good investments. Except in crazy housing bubbles, just about anything is going to give you a better return on your money than a house. Yes owning a house will be cheaper per month than rent, but then once you do the math in a mortgage calculator, you realize you are throwing away more than half of the cost of your house in the interest payments on a typical 30yr loan. Get someone else to throw their money away on it. Set you rental rate so you can afford a property management company to take care of all the typical month to month rental stuff and to be able to put away funds for major repairs.

      Example from the mortgage calc that pops up in google

      $200,000 house. 3.92% mortgage over 30years = 946/month

      Total to pay off the house = $340,427. You just gave your bank $140,427
      Add in the typical property tax, lets use $3000 per year, you just threw away another $90,000 over those same 30 years.

      Yeah renting will cost more over the same time. But frees you from worrying about expensive maint, typical house work. yard work, being closer to work, save on gas, wear and tear and your personal time.

      Renting will keep you from wanting/being able to do typical home renovations. Want an updated kitchen? Just move to a new place. Just saved you $20k-40k plus interest payments if you didn't pay the renovations in cash up front. Gives you a chance in scenery to move to a new place as well.

      Then there's the shitty neighbors issue. If you get a shitty neighbor while your renting, you only gotta stick it out the term of your lease. If its really bad, breaking your lease is cheaper than the realtor costs to sell and buy again. If it's an apartment maybe you'll get lucky and they leave when their lease is up.

    29. Re:It is dumb to own a home in USA, by w3woody · · Score: 1

      It is incredible for 60% of the Americans, the home they live forms more than 50% of their networth!. Homes are very very illiquid.

      Which is why so many home owners who bought a home have done relatively well: because a home represents illiquid forced savings. The problem is most folks, if they had a pile of cash rather than an investment instrument (which earns crap returns but is still saved), will blow it on toys, trips and stuff rather than put it into a good investment portfolio. So while in theory investing in a home isn't as good as potentially other investment instruments (though please subtract the cost to rent, because you have to spend something on a home, because it's awkward for millionaires to live in cardboard boxes under an overpass), in practice investing in a home works out better for most folks than the alternative.

    30. Re:It is dumb to own a home in USA, by b0s0z0ku · · Score: 1

      What if you like where you live and have low expectations?

      A 1950s kitchen works fine for me -- I can live in a house with only minor renovations, so long as everything works.

    31. Re:It is dumb to own a home in USA, by jeff4747 · · Score: 1

      Actually, that appreciation is due to fallow farmland nearby being developed into much more expensive houses than mine.

      As interest rates rise, the purchase price possible with a given monthly payment will drop.

      Because interest rates always rise, and never, ever, ever, ever drop.

      Houses stop appreciating in value, at best, or perhaps even start falling.

      And outside the Volker-induced recession in the 80s, that hasn't happened. And the Volker situation was utterly artificial to bring down overall inflation. It is not going to happen on its own, and no time soon.

    32. Re:It is dumb to own a home in USA, by b0s0z0ku · · Score: 1

      You mean housing prices didn't fall in 2008-2011 or in the early 2000s?

    33. Re:It is dumb to own a home in USA, by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Well then you dont have that temptation to spend money. I know a lot of people that get bit by the renovation bug once they have purchased their own home and have some disposable income looking for a new pocket

    34. Re:It is dumb to own a home in USA, by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Another good example where renting is better, you might be able to afford to live in areas that would typically be too expensive to buy, especially in your young adult years. Areas more "hip" with bars, restaurants and other socializing places within walking distance and close to work. I rent a 2bd, 1200sq ft apt for under $900 a month in such an area. A typical home of similar sq footage goes for $300k+ in the same area. I am living cheaper than a mortgage would be, and not having to deal with any of the hidden home ownership costs, while being in an area I enjoy at this period of my life.

    35. Re:It is dumb to own a home in USA, by nehumanuscrede · · Score: 1

      Perspective.

      After fifteen years or so ( depending on how long your mortgage is ) you'll question your own advice when you realize " Today is the day I could have paid the home off had I decided not to rent instead " This, of course, assumes you have bought a home that can realistically be paid off in your lifetime. If you didn't, well, you screwed up pretty early on unless you're simply making payments on it hoping for the market to exceed what you owe so you can escape.

      Instead of being able to put all that free cash into ( pick your favorite investment ), you'll simply keep doing what you always have done. Give all your money to the landlord, apartment or condo owner so they can put it into their favorite investment instead.

      So, you keep on renting and marvel at the fact that rent never seems to go down . . . .

      I'll keep investing all the cash I haven't had to pay out for nearly a decade now and make it a point to enjoy life when I retire early.

    36. Re:It is dumb to own a home in USA, by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      The problem is, as wealth consolidates the ROI of new investment drops because more investments are chasing less consumer demand.

      Meanwhile, economic rent privileges like land ownership become more valuable over time and as demand increases, speculation on that increase in demand increases, because there is no cost to sitting on economic rent privileges, you can simply speculate on them for profit to the detriment of the community that is adding the value to that land.

      This upward pressure on rents has devastated the east and west coast and left millions homeless and tens of millions food insecure, with poverty rising in direct proportion to progress, in the same manner described by Henry George in "Progress and Poverty" one of the great economic classics to go with The Wealth of Nations, Das Kapital, Capital in the 21st Century, among others.

      The problem is, as a renter, I am a slave. I pay out well over half my income (as do most my age) just to sleep indoors. My landlord can dictate every single aspect of my lifestyle or put me out on the street, and by law he has every right to do so. He can invade my space, violate my space, violate my home, take away my freedoms with the complete and total support of the law. In America, if you are a renter you do not have rights, and your rents will bottom out at a level that leaves you without disposable income. People buy because they desire freedom, not because it's the economically viable choice, but because it's the only choice that doesn't result in them being treated like a child by power crazed lunatics who see nothing but dollar signs.

      Worse, your advice suggests people commit to personal austerity. That personal austerity has one result: lowered consumer demand, which means fewer jobs and lower wages, all so the rich can have more and us have less.

      It's not that owning a home is dumb, it's that you fundamentally misunderstand the nature of these relationships and what it is like to be forced by economic conditions and macroeconomic policy to live in such a situation.

    37. Re:It is dumb to own a home in USA, by SirGarlon · · Score: 1

      Renting a house is paying someone else's mortgage. Landlords aren't renting for kicks: they want to make money ON TOP OF paying off the mortgage and taxes, and maintenance costs, etc.

      Certainly landlords aren't entering the market to lose money, but their motivations are slightly more complex than that. Several of the people I know who own rental properties are looking at them as revenue neutral in terms of cash flow. It's just that the cash is flowing from tenants' wallets into landlord's equity. When the landlord has enough equity in the rental property, he can get a mortgage to buy another: you do that several times over ten or twenty years and you've accumulated quite a net worth! So parent is correct, the tenant is paying someone else's mortgage and the landlord is getting a healthy benefit from the deal, but it is not necessarily as bad as the landlord actually trying to make day-to-day income off the rent. You would need quite a few properties to do that! (I know a guy who does have more than 10 properties but he inherited them -- and managing them looks a lot like having a job.) My landlord friends consider it a success when they break even, which is most years.

      --
      [Sir Garlon] is the marvellest knight that is now living, for he destroyeth many good knights, for he goeth invisible.
    38. Re:It is dumb to own a home in USA, by wyHunter · · Score: 1

      While I see your point -- The fact that we have become a nation where folks can have NO social or family network because everyone is expected to move every 2 or 3 years to get a new job is a huge definition of insanity. No wonder half the nation is on psychiatric meds.

    39. Re:It is dumb to own a home in USA, by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      This is retarded. Are you aware that you can in fact sell or even rent a home? That you don't even have to sell it for the amount you paid for it. When you pay rent you don't ever see that money again, but almost always almost everything you pay into your mortgage you get back when you sell.

    40. Re:It is dumb to own a home in USA, by be951 · · Score: 1

      Amazingly, you can actually sell a house. They even have people who make a living selling and buying houses!

      I think you inadvertently hit on something here that is counter to your point. Obviously, there are costs to selling, and not just the direct closing costs. OP is obviously wrong, of course. There are certainly cases where it is financially sound to buy rather than rent. But it's also wrong to claim that it is always better to buy. It varies based on many factors, but a common rule of thumb is (or used to be) that it's typically not cost effective to buy if you intend to move/sell in less than 7 years (though I have been seeing 5 years as the guideline more often of late).

      The real answer is to consider your local markets (rentals and sales), total costs in either scenario, your housing needs/wants, and your personal situation and do a cost/benefit analysis based on your specifics.

    41. Re:It is dumb to own a home in USA, by 140Mandak262Jamuna · · Score: 1
      Share price is manipulatable. Don't trust it. The executive stock options and incentive triggers are based usually on stock price. They manipulate it. Stock buy back etc are gimmicks to prop up the stock price to hit the trigger points for executive pay.

      Dividend is money going out of the company. They dont do it willingly and you need to pry it from them. For large cap companies, dividend is a very good indicator of the company's health.

      --
      sed -e 's/Chuck Norris/Rajnikant/g' joke > fact
    42. Re:It is dumb to own a home in USA, by 140Mandak262Jamuna · · Score: 1

      What makes you think I am not a landlord?

      --
      sed -e 's/Chuck Norris/Rajnikant/g' joke > fact
    43. Re:It is dumb to own a home in USA, by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      "But do not mistake (sic) home ownership with investment. These two are different."

      Indeed - your primary residence is *not* an investment; it mostly "fixes" one of your largest costs. If you do buy, just don't be stupid and buy at the height of the market; buy low if you can and let inflation work for you. I've been in the same house for 20 years and there's no way I could rent anything close to what I'm living in now for what I pay in mortgage + insurance + taxes.

    44. Re:It is dumb to own a home in USA, by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      But for younger generation starting out, "stay away from owning homes. Wait for a down turn, buy only if the mortgage is less than rent, and you are assured of job safety for 20 years, and you are planning to stay in that neighborhood for 20 years. Always watch the affluent white class is doing and do that". Invest in index funds. Put 33% in SDY, VNQ or such high dividend yield large cap. 33% in MidCap, 33% in SmallCap. Treat your credit card limit as the emergency funds. You have six month lead time to cash in some securities. Don't fall in love with cars. Start with civic, corolla level, and upgrade to pilot, crv, rav4 level. Don't pay for luxury car brands. Enjoy life.

      t. rubes

    45. Re:It is dumb to own a home in USA, by edtice1559 · · Score: 1

      There are property management companies that will do this for you. It completely tosses much of the rent/own equation out of the window. You're not tied to a house just because you bought it. Now you should shop smarter and look at things like "rent multiples" rather than whether you like the carpet. Basically there's no point of even looking at a house. If it can't go into an Excel spreadsheet, it's not important!

    46. Re:It is dumb to own a home in USA, by djinn6 · · Score: 1

      If you can afford property, it is a great investment.

      Over the course of a generation, they have firmly cemented our family as upper middle class. We will never be rich, but unless someone picks up a massive drug habit or makes some extremely stupid investments, our family is going to be okay. That never would have happened with index funds.

      The DJI rose from $1266 in 1985 to $24,792 today - a 19.5x increase. Meanwhile, a median house in California was $85,000 in the 1980's. Even if that was bought in SF, where it's worth $1,000,000 now, that's still only a 11.8x increase. So yes, you could be very well off with index funds. In fact, you'd be twice as well off with the DJI. S&P 500 is not quite as good, at a 14.8x increase, but still better than real estate.

      This makes a lot of sense if you think about it. The value of real estate is directly tied to the number of people who need housing, so immigration is the only driver for any increases. Meanwhile, the value of a business depends on consumer spending in their market. The market itself grows from immigration, but consumer spending can also grow, giving it one more way to grow than the real estate market. So over the long run, stocks will always outperform housing.

    47. Re:It is dumb to own a home in USA, by dave562 · · Score: 1

      What kind of dividends are you making on your index funds investments?

      Once the house is paid for, it becomes a cash machine less property tax and the occasional maintenance.

      Keep in mind, a house is not an either / or proposition. It is not, buy a house or invest in the market. I am paying a mortgage, and I also have a 401K, an employee stock purchase program through the company, and separate investments managed by an advisor.

      It is insane to pay someone else's mortgage.

      Granted, my perspective on real estate is skewed. I moved from southern California to Oregon. For only a little bit more than I was paying for rent on a 2 bedroom apartment, I have a four bedroom house on a quarter acre in a great school district.

    48. Re:It is dumb to own a home in USA, by djinn6 · · Score: 1

      What kind of dividends are you making on your index funds investments?

      Once the house is paid for, it becomes a cash machine less property tax and the occasional maintenance.

      It's not about the dividends. You might think getting rent for nothing is great, but they really don't add up anywhere close to the amount of increase in stock prices. You can sell 1% of your stock every year, and still end up with both more cash in your pocket and more equity at the end of the day.

      Of course, if you don't have a house and you need a place to live, then yeah, buying a house makes your life much better. But by the time you can afford a second house, you should really start looking around for other kinds of investments as well.

    49. Re:It is dumb to own a home in USA, by dave562 · · Score: 1

      Thanks for the responses and conversation. I appreciate the points that you made.

      For me, I would rather own an actual physical asset. But I do understand how that risk averse mentality might be costing me a few percentage points in the long run.

    50. Re:It is dumb to own a home in USA, by jeff4747 · · Score: 1

      You mean interest rates didn't fall in 2008-2011? Or in the early 2000s? Or in the early 1990s? Or in the mid 1980s? Or a lot of other times?

      Again, interest rates can go down. Your previous statement required that interest rates only rise.

    51. Re:It is dumb to own a home in USA, by suutar · · Score: 1

      by the same token, if rents in the area drop, they're going to have to lower what they charge even if it's now less than the mortgage. Unless they want to move back in, or let it sit empty (which is worse in many ways than just having a rent shortfall)...

    52. Re:It is dumb to own a home in USA, by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Yeah, but when you sell your stocks you get hit with capital gains taxes, hopefully only long term. House sales where you actually lived for a couple of years you can be exempt for $250k/$500k of profit depending if you are single/married.

      Plus you have some control if your investment improves (do you take good care of it). Yes, if you are unwilling/unable to do basic upkeep/repairs then you should probably be renting instead of ruining a perfectly good house.

  32. Things are going to change by ne7minder · · Score: 1

    The GOP tax bill originally removed all deductions for mortgage interest and property taxes. The latest word is that those have been put back but with a $10,000 cap. Either of those provisions will dampen enthusiasm for home ownership and cause rents to continue upward.

    1. Re:Things are going to change by b0s0z0ku · · Score: 1

      This is a good thing for smart money -- just buy a rental property at the new, depressed price. :)

    2. Re:Things are going to change by 110010001000 · · Score: 1

      No they didn't. Why do people post such garbage? The proposal is that new home buyers can only deduct interest on the first $750,000 of a mortgage. If you are getting a 750k mortgage on a house then you are already in the top 10% of earners (at least!). The current threshold is $1,000,000.

    3. Re:Things are going to change by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      This is what I've done over the past 8 years. Buy nice, well-priced condos in a major metro and rent them. I'm 38 with over a million of real estate equity. Day Job: Software Engineer.

  33. From a strictly financial point of view by inking · · Score: 1

    My favorite topic that everyone always gets upset about. You don’t buy a house because it makes sense from the financial point of view; you buy it because it makes you feel good.

    There is sufficient literature showing that the long-term inflation-adjusted returns—or savings—on homes have been lower than those of risk-free bonds, to say nothing of equity. Since the article asks about “readers around the world”, here is one such book in German. The author does a financial evaluation of home ownership over several decades in Germany and other developed countries. It makes no sense to buy a home outright and even less sense to buy it on credit as is typically the case.

    An important factor in this discussion that is usually pulled out of the air by well-meaning but not financially savvy individuals is that homes are “safe investments”. They are not. By buying a home, you are putting a large portion of your net worth into a single asset type: homes in your area. Any decrease in housing prices or the quality of your area in general immediately results in a huge decrease of your net worth. If you have to sell your house for any of a myriad of reasons, you lose a lot of money. Furthermore, an uninsured home is a very risky asset, as it may just burn down one day, whereas an insured home further reduces the growth of its value due to the costs of insurance. Lastly, if you actually want to sell your home and you are lucky to get some kind of profit out of it, you are facing considerable transaction costs and much lower liquidity than you would be if you were trying to sell a market-listed instrument.

    All of these make personal housing bad investments. The only two good things that come out of such a purchase is that you have the freedom to restructure your house as much as you like and that you are effectively forced to save more by the virtue of the home financing company breathing down your back. Both come at a great cost.

    I rent and I strongly encourage everyone to briefly study the available literature on the topic before coming to erroneous conclusions that you will be “saving on the rent” or “investing into something very safe”. On the bright side, these erroneous conclusions are the reason why those of us who did do due diligence get to rent so cheaply. Thanks homeowners.

    P.S.: This does not transfer to commercial properties and REITS.

    1. Re:From a strictly financial point of view by 110010001000 · · Score: 1

      If you rent, you are paying your landlords mortgage + maintenance + taxes + profit. Do you think your landlord is renting to you at a loss? Home ownership in Europe is a completely different prospect than in the US.

    2. Re:From a strictly financial point of view by king+neckbeard · · Score: 1

      Any decrease in housing prices or the quality of your area in general immediately results in a huge decrease of your net worth.

      But does that really affect you in your day to day life? Other than tax rates (for which a decrease is a positive change), the net worth of my house is meaningless to me, outside of times I want to sell it or borrow against it. Regardless of the stability of the financial value, the utilitarian value of a home is very stable.

      --
      This is my signature. There are many like it, but this one is mine.
    3. Re:From a strictly financial point of view by inking · · Score: 1

      It is only different in that it makes even less sense to invest into a home in the U.S. You are paying insane opportunity costs. This is very easy to illustrate:

      If you had purchased a home and rented it out in 1970, forty years later in 2009 you would have had 3.6 times the initial value in returns. That is the increase in the value of the property, an absolutely laughable 1.2 times, plus the rent and minus the costs. By contrast, if you invested into something as boring as the S&P500 and called it a day, you would have made a whooping 9.6 times returns while having better liquidity and diversification.

      What you seem to forget—and I don’t blame you, since 99% of the population is with you on this one—is that money today does not have the same worth as it does in the future. Your landlady is not a finance wizard either. In fact, I would wager that if you collected all landlords in your town, the vastest majority of them could not even do proper accounting, much less determine the future value of their asset.

      If you run the numbers, you lose. It is as simple as that and does not change no matter how much exposure you have had to the sunk costs fallacy. For your own good, please educate yourself instead of making assumptions about something you are clearly a layman in.

    4. Re:From a strictly financial point of view by inking · · Score: 1

      It depends on a per person basis, but there is no one who benefits from owning something that is volatile, illiquid and has poor growth when the option to own something that is less volatile, highly liquid and has high growth is available. I can rent an apartment and have more money at my disposal, while sacrificing very little in return if anything at all. It is a zero sum game and by buying a home you are essentially subsiding someone else whom you could have rented it from for much much less.

    5. Re:From a strictly financial point of view by 110010001000 · · Score: 2

      You must be young. Otherwise, did you take your own advice and invest a bunch of cash in 1970 in S&P500 index funds instead of buying a house? My guess is you didn't. No one does, you can guess why. There is a reason that the vast majority of people who have wealth in this country invest in real estate.

    6. Re:From a strictly financial point of view by 110010001000 · · Score: 1

      You are really dumb if you think your landlord is renting you something for "much much less". You are comparing renting an APARTMENT with buying a house. That isn't even comparable. One thing I have noticed from people here who talking about renting is that they really have no clue on the basics. Of course renting a $500 a month apartment is cheaper than buying a $500,000 house with a $2000 month/mortgage. That isn't the point.

    7. Re:From a strictly financial point of view by inking · · Score: 1

      Look, you are very vehement about this as seen by the preponderance of your posts in this thread, but you are also wrong and don’t bring much to the table. I have provided you with both data and research on the matter, which you ignore in favor of ad how rationalizations or, worse, simply ignoring when you have been shown to be objectively wrong and continuing on with your uneducated conjectures. No offense, but you are wasting everyone’s time.

    8. Re:From a strictly financial point of view by inking · · Score: 1

      I can only suggest that you read the opportunity costs article so you at least understand what we are talking about here. Clearly you do not.

    9. Re:From a strictly financial point of view by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Luckily, my landlord purchased his house 20 years ago and California limits property tax increases.

      So my landlords mortgage + maintenance + taxes + profit my mortgage + maintenance + taxes for the exact same house!
      I remember calculating if I should buy a house in California. I realized that buying the house I rented means the new property taxes would be 1/3 of the current rent I paid for the house!

    10. Re:From a strictly financial point of view by king+neckbeard · · Score: 1

      I'm not saying that it's a way to make a lot money, but it is a way to reduce costs. Even if you still have to pay a mortgage, it's typically a fixed payment. The security of never having again the cost of a roof over your head increase (a cost which has outpaced inflation) opens up a lot of options.

      --
      This is my signature. There are many like it, but this one is mine.
    11. Re:From a strictly financial point of view by inking · · Score: 1

      It is a way to reduce costs in an atemporal way. You need to account for the facts that a) the money spent today is money that cannot generate revenue tomorrow and b) costs are only important in as far as they affect your revenue. If your revenue grows faster than your costs, you are “winning”, as our new beloved POTUS likes to say, no matter how high the costs are.

      A home generates very little revenue in terms of reducing costs once you do own it, with the interest on the credit most people need to take only making the returns worth. There will be exceptions, but there are also exceptions in other markets, e.g. early buyers of AAPL, Bitcoin or someone who just happened to short mortgages during the Lehman Shocks. On the other hand, a purchase of equity through a highly diversified ETF not only has better yield, it actually allows you to withdraw a portion of that yield to pay off expenses. A home only removes one cost factor while creating others. In the end you end up with the savings you have by not paying rent vis-a-vis having to pay rent but receiving a steady passive income from equity and bonds. Case studies suggest that the latter is a more sound financial decision.

      In terms of having a roof over your head, yes, I am certain that is a very reassuring feeling, but a roof is not the only thing you need. What matters is how much of your income after taxes you end up spending on food and the said roof. Neither of the two options will make you a balling billionaire, but not buying a home generally provides a higher standard of living.

    12. Re: From a strictly financial point of view by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Where the heck did property only go up by 120â... in 40 years? In London it went up by 4300â... from 1971 to 2013.

  34. Rents need to REVERSE by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    From my standpoint, "the great recession" was a reversion to the mean, and the present resurgence in prices is the real crisis.

    Where I live, over 80% of new developments are "luxury apartments." Man, fuck that, where are the affordable places for sale?

    And I write this as someone from a household that earns north of $300k a year.

    1. Re:Rents need to REVERSE by DaMattster · · Score: 1

      From my standpoint, "the great recession" was a reversion to the mean, and the present resurgence in prices is the real crisis.

      Where I live, over 80% of new developments are "luxury apartments." Man, fuck that, where are the affordable places for sale?

      And I write this as someone from a household that earns north of $300k a year.

      The affordable places to live are now in the high crime, urban areas. I was doing decently well until I lost everything due to health problems. Sadly, the demand is for luxury apartments which is why they're being built. Millennials want gyms, pools, spas, and lounges in their apartment complexes. I neither want nor need any of that extra garbage. All I really want and need is a simple affordable place. Since real estate is location, location, location and wages have not kept up with the explosive cost of housing, I will be moving into one of those high crime, urban areas. I also work now as a Security Guard which isn't the most lucrative but it is all I can do at the moment.

    2. Re:Rents need to REVERSE by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      the demand is for luxury apartments

      There are too many rich people

    3. Re:Rents need to REVERSE by belg4mit · · Score: 1

      There are too many people who think they are rich.
      Big difference. How many of them are properly saving for retirement, college, emergencies, etc.?

      --
      Were that I say, pancakes?
  35. Article is bullshit by DaMattster · · Score: 1

    I want to live close by to family and most of my earnings are going to rent. I guess that is the price I have to be willing to pay in order to make that happen. However, come the end of my lease, I will have to move into a not-so-great area. I pay 990.00 a month for rent and that is just too high considering that my base pay is about 15.10 per hour and overtime is infrequent. The areas where I will be looking will certainly not be as comfortable or quiet but since when did the poor have any real options?

    1. Re:Article is bullshit by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      You're crying about CHOOSING to spend half your income on rent.

  36. I'm a landlord and I think I may rent soon by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 2, Interesting

    I've been a landlord for 25 years (in my 40s now). I've sold my rental assets only once before -- right before the housing bubble popped. That's because I always live by the method of buying properties when they're selling for less than 60X rent, keeping them if they're 60-120X rent and if they breach 150X rent, I sell them.

    My areas are consistently edging up towards 150X rent, which means it makes more sense to sell than rent them. They're 100% occupied and stay that way always (I have a waiting list on one or two units consistently).

    So right now I am 90% certain I'll sell everything. I bought a new home (for cash) 2 years ago and the comp price in my neighborhood is up 40% -- totally unsustainable. Folks again are competing to buy homes and then paying way too much compared to income.

    In the last bubble, I sold a rental I had bought for $43,000 to a bidding war that ended up paying $120K for it. After the crash, the new "owners" foreclosed pretty quickly and I bought it at auction with no other bidders for $60k. Now that same unit 8ish years later is back up to $110K but it only rents for $785 a month (just over 140X rent). So if it edges up a bit more ($120K) in comps, it'll be on the market and I'll be out and hope that I can buy it back in 3-5 years at a significant haircut.

    This market is yet again pushing bubble stages at least in my neighborhoods. As I get older, I realize these are the paths to wealth because people are too emotional about "their" home that they don't even have a title to.

    1. Re:I'm a landlord and I think I may rent soon by DaMattster · · Score: 1

      In my early 30s, I struck up a conversation with an older gentleman and we got to talking about homeownership and the foreclosure crisis in America. He said to me, "Some people should not buy a home." At the time, I thought what an elitist son-of-a-bitch and I just ignored him until he got the message that I had changed my mind about wanting to talk to him. In my mind he was just some wealthy asshole wanting to keep the poor man down. Now in my 40s, I realize that he was really wise. What he was really saying was that if you do not have the money to purchase a home outright, that a mortgage is a fool's errand. What happens when a large and expensive system in the home fails and you don't have the money to repair it; you're forced to take another loan to make the repair or replacement. Then what happens if you're laid off during an inevitable economic downturn? You lose your house. What happens if you become disabled and unable to work? You lose your house.

      This older gentleman was advising that people live well below their means - it is good and sound advice. I only wish I was not so hot-headed at the time - I really would have taken his advice to heart. Had I spent my late 20s through my 30s living below my means, I would not find myself in the current predicament that I am in. I lost just about everything as a result of health problems and becoming disabled. I sure wish I had not bought into the American Dream and buying all these goods that I did not need. Had I lived simpler, I would have had savings to weather the storm I am in now.

    2. Re:I'm a landlord and I think I may rent soon by 110010001000 · · Score: 1

      Living below your means has nothing to do with buying a house. What he meant was "some people should not buy a home because they are too dumb to know what they can afford". That is always good advice, but that applies to life in general. You do not want to buy a home outright with cash. Money is cheap right now, so that would be a dumb thing to do. You misunderstood what he was telling you.

    3. Re:I'm a landlord and I think I may rent soon by b0s0z0ku · · Score: 1

      Depends what you're looking for. If you can buy for cash and your "return" (i.e. difference between expenses and costs of renting the same home) is 6-8%, where are you going to get that much interest (RELIABLY, year-after-year, not subject to market crashes) on your cash? If you can drop $100 grand on a fixer-upper and only pay property tax (no mortgage) for the next 30 years, go for it.

    4. Re:I'm a landlord and I think I may rent soon by 110010001000 · · Score: 1

      I would rather borrow money at 3.5% than sink that much money into one thing, but you have a point. There is a balance.

    5. Re:I'm a landlord and I think I may rent soon by b0s0z0ku · · Score: 1

      And yes, I agree with you that a lot of people aren't cut out to own homes. Specifically the skells who ATMed their homes, didn't read the HELOC contract, used the money for a $100k renovation throwing out perfectly good appliances and fixtures, then whined that the HELOC was coming due.

    6. Re:I'm a landlord and I think I may rent soon by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      LOL, $100K on a house? Are people from Alabama allowed to post on Slashdot?

    7. Re:I'm a landlord and I think I may rent soon by b0s0z0ku · · Score: 1

      You can even buy one in NJ for that price, in a middle-class (not rich) town -- it'll just be a 1000sf bungalow in not-so-nice shape. I'm looking at a few such houses to rent out, in fact.

    8. Re:I'm a landlord and I think I may rent soon by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Wow, I was impressed until I saw the prices are piddling. Are you like a slumlord? $785 rent?

    9. Re:I'm a landlord and I think I may rent soon by drinkypoo · · Score: 1

      You can even buy one in NJ for that price, in a middle-class (not rich) town -- it'll just be a 1000sf bungalow in not-so-nice shape. I'm looking at a few such houses to rent out, in fact.

      Most people don't know how to assess a property to determine if it's going to fall in on itself if they don't spend more than it's worth shoring it up. If you're one of the people who do, bully for you. If you also have the money to flip it, and the connections or the skills to renovate it so that you can do that, huzzah for you as well. Most people can't take a chance on a dodgy pile.

      --
      "You're right," Fisheye says. "I should have set it on 'whip' or 'chop.'"
    10. Re:I'm a landlord and I think I may rent soon by b0s0z0ku · · Score: 1

      Flip it? Nah.

      I'd rather hold on to it and have more boring, predictable rental income so I can work less.

    11. Re:I'm a landlord and I think I may rent soon by drinkypoo · · Score: 1

      I'd rather hold on to it and have more boring, predictable rental income so I can work less.

      However the economics work out, I never became a property owner because I never had money and a co-signer at the same time. I started out poor, and I'm still poor. I have the skills, but I don't have the bills. In my wallet, that is. I get bills, which I've just become unable to pay.

      --
      "You're right," Fisheye says. "I should have set it on 'whip' or 'chop.'"
    12. Re:I'm a landlord and I think I may rent soon by asackett · · Score: 1

      To my way of thinking, buying a home outright is the best possible proof that you can afford it.

      --

      Warning: This signature may offend some viewers.

  37. Amazing by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1

    These people will absolutely try to export their failed governance to the states they end up in.

    It's amazing how liberals and Islamofascist, "refugees" are similar in this regard,

    1. Re: Amazing by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1

      Right. 'Cause when the Noble Republican moves to a blue state, he stops voting and lives in perfect harmony with the local government.

  38. Can't pay rent, moving into the streets by aod7br7932 · · Score: 1

    I just hope sidewalk rent doesn't inflate

    1. Re:Can't pay rent, moving into the streets by DaMattster · · Score: 1

      I just hope sidewalk rent doesn't inflate

      I know you are being highly facetious but some people are literally facing homelessness. The sidewalk rent ends up drastically shortening people's lives, if it does not outrightly kill them. One pays sidewalk rent with their life ... It is actually the most expensive rent to be paid. :-(

  39. Re:Follow CA's gun control & ban bump stocks by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Yeah, yeah. Pour some hot grits down your pants already.

  40. Re:Follow CA's gun control & ban bump stocks by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Thanks AlecStaar. I think you are overdue for a medcheck

  41. They ARE concentrated in Denver, Austin, and Dalla by raymorris · · Score: 2

    > Unless all those leaving are concentrating in one area when they settle back down

    They ARE concentrated in Denver, Austin, and Dallas. A significant percentage of Austin residents came to Austin from the bay area.

  42. rents aren't going up, really? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    I live in a 2 bedroom house, the rent is $1200. The landlord is selling it. I have no choice but to move if the buyer wants to live in it, which is of course the easiest type of buyer to sell to, so that's what they are doing. Thanks to the Rent Stabilisation Ordinance, they have to pay me $10k to move, however, there are no 1-bedroom houses available for rent for less than $1600, and no 2-bedrooms available for less than $1900 anywhere in the city. If I want to stay close to city center where I already am, which I do, the only 2-bedrooms are $2400 and above. So my rent will more than double. That 10k will not help much when the deposit eats it, and 2 months later the extra for rent is gone too. I can't afford to buy. I never have been able to. Even when I had low debt, mid 700's credit score, and a decent income, even with a "no-money-down" loan, they still require the closing costs, the taxes, to the tune of 15k or so. I've never been able to save up anything near 15k because I live pay-check to pay-check. Even worse, I no longer work for "the man", so I don't even get a "paycheck", it's more like I live invoice-to-invoice from clients, and they all love to pay late as hell. But at least I pay less taxes. But now I have a ton of debt, and there's no way in hell I'll ever own a home unless my business really takes off.

  43. Funny... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1

    There are enough empty houses/apartments/condos within the borders of the USA to house every homeless and "homeless" individual in America. But there are too many people making too much money in keeping those houses/apartments/condos off the market in a greedy attempt to make every dollar possible.

  44. Right... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Course none of this applies to Seattle...the problem is getting worse and rather quickly. Renters I know are considering leaving the city due to too high of rental costs and houses are still selling immediately despite being slowest time of the year for the market.

    1. Re:Right... by 110010001000 · · Score: 1

      Plus you can only get dial up Internet in Seattle, right? That is why everyone is moving there.

    2. Re:Right... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      It's worse - we have Comcast. Dial-up would be preferable :(

  45. Too bad. by hey! · · Score: 1

    I misread the headline as saying "America's Rant Crisis May Be Ending."

    --
    Post may contain irony: discontinue use if experiencing mood swings, nausea or elevated blood pressure.
  46. its cyclic ... you are kidding yourself by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Like housing crashes, it happens like clockwork. Every 11 years or so. Right before the 2008 crash, folks were excited about decrease in renters and lowering prices of rent. It was more cost effective to rent than to own, indicating the bubble.

    No problem is "solved" here, you are just riding a pendulum and not addressing the "physics".

  47. Never Objective by albeit+unknown · · Score: 2

    This sort of article is rarely objective. The people beating the drum most often about the necessity of homeownership are people like real estate agents and mortgage brokers. In the linked article, the interview is with the CEO of a paint company. They make their money from home improvement projects - something less frequent in a rental property. In reality, the purchase vs rent question is closer to 1:1. Here are some of the disadvantages of owning a house.

    1. Not an investment, it is a capital asset - over the long term housing tracks inflation almost exactly
    2. Highly illiquid asset
    3. Variable maintenance costs and also depreciates in value over time
    4. Most people will have a large portion of their net worth tied up in a single asset, increasing risk
    5. Substantial costs to buy and sell the house, in the form of broker fees, etc.

    1. Re:Never Objective by inking · · Score: 1

      I think it’s the sunk cost fallacy rather than some lobby. For most people their home is the single biggest asset they own and a disproportionately large portion of their net worth. People get very territorial if you say that their camera brand is not as good as that other camera brand, even though they could easily buy both from a single salary. Now consider how much more reluctant you would be to accept that you’ve made a bad investment into something that essentially consumes your life’s earnings.

  48. Other factors? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    How much cash on hand do banks require before they loan people (compared to 2005)?

    How much money do people have in savings accounts for down payments? I see this:
        https://fred.stlouisfed.org/series/PSAVERT

    How many ex-homeowners messed up their credit in the last 7 years making it more expensive to get a mortgage now?

    How many are graduating from college in the last few years with student debt weighing on their income to debt ratio?

    Are mortgage interest rates increasing? How does that affect affordability?

    Is the gig economy (eg: AirBNB) negatively affecting availability of affordable homes/condos?

    Instead of downsizing to a retirement condo or vacation home, are suburban seniors getting a reverse mortgage on their current home to fund their retirement? Can they find renters for the rooms their kids used to occupy?

    Despite whatever trend is shown in the OP census link, I think the available pool of buyers will continue to be depressed. Based on your location/region, YMMV.

  49. Extreme poverty in America by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    So what. It is already too late. Most of these units already existed anyway. In Manhattan almost half of them sit empty as investments for part time residents who pay no taxes. I call BS and PR on this one. https://www.theguardian.com/wo...

  50. The U.S. is actually one of the best places to own by Solandri · · Score: 1

    The U.S. has one of the lowest home price to income ratios in the developed world. If it's dumb to own a home in the U.S., it's super-dumb to own one elsewhere in the world.

    It sounds more like you bought more home than you could afford. I spent almost a year shopping for a home, and the one I finally bought was in a nice area I liked, in decent shape, but the price was depressed because the owners had been trying to move for years so the house had been "on the market" for a really long time in MLS. After I bought it, even after mortgage and expenses, I was still able to sock away 20%-25% of my income in savings/investments. I like living here, there's no HOA, I pay someone half the HOA fees I normally saw when shopping to rake the leaves and maintain the lawn (though I'm considering doing it myself because I could use the exercise - why pay for a gym membership when there's work to do around the house), and I'm handy enough to do most of my own repairs.

  51. Not entirely true... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Where I live, there is this problem of (what is believed to be) foreign investors buying up everything they can get their hands on and driving up the prices beyond what anyone local can afford. They then sit on the empty houses and wait for the market to rise, leaving entire subdivisions of "Starting in the low 300's" brand new, never been lived in houses all empty. This is also due to the fact that they don't WANT to rent them out, as that devalues the houses (due to renter abuse/damage and simple, regular old wear and tear). There are also cases of multiple families living over-capacity in some houses (usually immigrants/refugees) getting multiple government hand-outs and tax breaks and treating the area like the slums they were escaping, and wondering why their neighborhood is going downhill so fast...
    This bubble happened in the GTA (Greater Toronto Area) for a while, and the local government had to step in. Now, the effect is spreading to any neighboring areas as far south as Niagara Falls, with houses being bough up at over list price (sometimes double or triple, due to bidding wars).
    When there are so-called "affordable housing" units built, they are still entirely too expensive for a single income, minimum wage earner to hold onto and still eat more than KD and cereal. That's also assuming they don't have a car and can walk to work.
    Charging Taxes on any units that remain unrented for more than a year is a good place to start motivating owners to get tenants, or lower expected rental rates to more realistic levels. Verifying that places aren't simply being rented by "token occupants" to dodge the taxes, etc. That's where the GTA started their push back. Too little, too late for a lot of folks. I hear that average housing costs (to buy) there are upwards of a million for a tiny house.
    Add to that, cities like St. Catharines that have lost G.M. jobs to Mexico, and you have a large population base that has no more big-paying industry to keep its local economy going, and the kids of said (now retired, or deceased) boomers all having to commute to the GTA for a better paying job, only to have any financial advantage of said job eaten away by commuting costs. And the local city hall can't swallow the fact that the great majority of the population can't bear the tax burden that the previous generation could. Don't forget about the boomerang millennials! They can't even be bothered to Try to look for a minimum wage job locally, as they're all being filled by marginalized elderly people trying to eek out a living by supplementing their laughable old-age pensions.
    Any rent that takes more than 50% of the occupants' income is too much. It's simple math. Hell, if it's more than 30%, it's still too much.
    Then you can add to that, the *7 YEAR* waiting lists that exist for "rent based on income" housing! There is a Crisis waiting list, but it's still 2 years long (if they can find where the cardboard box is that you're living in to let you know it's come available, that is.)
    So, the crisis is reversing?
    I'd really like to see details on that.
    Never mind the displaced locals that have to still live, work and eat, now that everything has been displaced by people working eating, and shopping out of town, but just "living" in their "bedroom community".
    Just how do people afford to mortgage a $1.4 million house, drive a BMW, feed 3 kids, and send the eldest to college, when 2 full-time, minimum-wage jobs can't get better than a $950/month skid-row rental in a federal co-op?
    -
    Reversing crisis?
    No signs of it here.
    And it's not looking too good for the near future, either.

  52. Itâ(TM)s easing because by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1

    Young adults are all living at their parents house. They canâ(TM)t afford rent and student loan payments at the same time.

  53. If few people own multiple properties... by h4x0t · · Score: 1

    then vacancies don't matter a whole lot. If all the properties that are full make up for the cost of vacancies, they will keep them vacant with a high price tag.

    If the market were dominated by for rent by private small owner, then this would be different.

    Meanwhile, my rent is up 45% in 2 years. Still the cheapest in the area.

  54. Housemates? by whitroth · · Score: 1

    Does the study include rates of folks *sharing* housing/apts?

    Now, given that I read in the media earlier this year that hedge fund and other scum of the earth were buying up rental properties, and raising rents, I'd like to see a real study (shut *up* LIbertidiot trolls) that shows the rate of shared housing.

    For example, a friend who's sharing a house with three other people. Or one of my daughters, who, with her husband, bought a house with another couple, which makes it *not* "single family" housing.

  55. Re:Best thing for a young family... - try eviction by Ulfilas2000 · · Score: 1

    When that lovely tenant you rented to fails to pay their rent, and invites their friends over for late-night parties that keep you awake, and you realize that you have to file 6 months in advance of evicting them (renter protection), and then when you do evict them you had better call the sheriff to stand by while you drag all their stuff out to the street, you find out how lovely and fun being a landlord is..

  56. What forms the basis of a "good education"? by King_TJ · · Score: 1

    I think this last question in your post is a big key to our nation's issues....

    Despite the lip service paid to encouraging people to go into skilled trades, the overall mentality is that those "blue collar" jobs are less desirable and make you a citizen of a lesser status in society than if you can finish college or a university with a "prestigious" degree.

    In reality, we need FAR more people who have learned how to do quality work with plumbing installation and repair, carpentry, electrical work, roofing, flooring and HVAC work than we do more attorneys or business majors. Last time I needed some concrete work done around the house, I couldn't even find anyone in my city who claimed to have skill at repairing the concrete wall that divides my property line from my neighbor's. I was typically told, "I'm primarily skilled at doing flat work like sidewalks or driveways, but not especially good at patching up part of a vertical wall."

    Overall, we're just paying far too much for a higher education. People keep focusing on how much they owe (or have the prospect of owing) on student loans, but that's just the symptom of the REAL problem; we're overcharging for and overselling the benefits of a diploma. Last I checked, nations like France had a more sensible system in place -- where you'd be steered towards learning a skilled trade if that was your area of proficiency. The people who have their heart set on being a rocket scientist or a marine biologist or a professional photographer or a lawyer? They'll still pursue that path and there will always be schools happy to take their money to try to teach them. But we need to be more realistic about teaching people the things that really make them functioning, money-making members of our society - especially when they don't really know what they want to do for a living.

    1. Re:What forms the basis of a "good education"? by b0s0z0ku · · Score: 1

      France also treats medicine as a skilled trade. Medical school is 6 years out of high school -- if you passed HS, you'll get in to the first two years, and be able to continue to year 3-6 if you did well in the first two. Far better than the Byzantine admission system in the US.

  57. Wrong, wrong, wrong! by King_TJ · · Score: 1

    Buying a house has always been the single smartest thing I did with my earnings.

    Homes aren't incredibly liquid, but they're absolutely possible to resell. Just look how many people make a good living as realtors, if you have doubts.

    If you're just starting out on your own and have your very first "career job", then no. You *likely* are better off renting for a while. A home is a big commitment (just like any large purchase would be) and you don't want to become one of the statistics who signed up for a 30 year mortgage, only to find out your employer wasn't going to employ you after 2-3 years and you couldn't find equivalent pay with another company.

    But assuming you're going to be ok, earnings-wise, to afford what you're getting into? A house makes plenty of sense. Look at it this way: What else are you going to spend your money on? Unless you're one of the VERY few who is disciplined enough and content enough putting the bulk of your money into long-term investments you can't touch or do anything with you're going to spend it on tangible and intangible things. Most of those things will rapidly depreciate in value from the moment you bring them home and begin using them, if they're not just "entertainment" like travel, where you have ZERO to show financially for 100% of what you spent on it.

    At least when you buy a home, you're buying something that you literally use every moment of every day or night when you're not at work or out and about someplace. You're also investing in the plot of land that the property sits on, which gives you some options other people don't have. Maybe you're in an area where the local government allows you to drill your own well for water? Maybe you want to use some of your land to put up rows of solar panels and drop your electricity costs to 0? Maybe you like working on cars and with your land, you have enough room to hang onto a spare car or two that's in a state of partial assembly? Or maybe it's just a safe place for your young kid(s) to play while you can keep an eye on them, without having to travel someplace first?

    A given home may or may not turn out to be a "good investment" in the traditional sense that it appreciates in value over time. But you can't live in and enjoy stocks or mutual funds or even gold bars.

    Additionally, when I rented, I hated the lack of privacy and control over my surroundings. I had a next door neighbor who used to constantly irritate me over little things like turning off the light that lit the stairway leading up to our units. I'd invite people over and they'd almost trip and fall, trying to get up to our place. The neighbor was convinced (incorrectly) that the light for the stairs was wired to HER circuit, so she was paying for it to stay on. That's not even mentioning the issues of having to be quieter than you might want to be, just because someone below you or next to you would complain. To me, that's no way to live if you can help it. It's certainly worth paying a few hundred bucks per month over and above what rent would cost (which is pretty much how my current mortgage payments work).

  58. The tax bill reverses this trend again by RhettLivingston · · Score: 1

    The $750K cap on mortgage interest deductions is going to drive the higher end buyers down. Homes just above $750K will stop selling as most buying in that range try to get under the limit. For a while, they will sell at a loss, but as that settles, the market just under $750K will be gutted.

    The prices of those less than $750K will then start climbing as the availability near $750K falls. The cascading effect will suck up homes that would otherwise have been rented until the construction industry rebalances itself.

    The rebalancing in the construction industry will be painful as in progress development projects have to be redesigned or abandoned. There will surely be a rash of bankruptcies because contractors often exist well out on a limb. Recovery will take time.

    1. Re:The tax bill reverses this trend again by IMightB · · Score: 1

      Really? The previous cap was 500K, If you can afford a 750K or more house, I don't think that the benefit of ONLY being able to deduct 750K is going to have much of an effect.

    2. Re:The tax bill reverses this trend again by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      There is no cap now. Those that I have known buying at McMansion levels in my area often state that they did so as an investment. They usually lament that it's too much house for them. The tax advantages of the investment are one of the driving factors in the decision.

      If you talk with a real estate agent about it, they will tell you that the mortgage interest deduction argument is one of their most productive tools in talking buyers into higher priced purchases.

      Our economy depends on consumers being driven to the point of waste. It would be nice if it didn't, but then we'd be back in a jobs crisis.

      Personally, I don't participate in this. I own everything. If everyone did as I do, we'd be in serious trouble. We're just too productive today and have no firm plans for what to do when we reach the point of not needing people to work or even, eventually, invest.

    3. Re:The tax bill reverses this trend again by b0s0z0ku · · Score: 1

      Jobs crisis? Not if we socialize the fixed costs of employment and reduce working hours to say 30, on average, for everyone.

  59. Homelessness to blame by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1

    It's only gotten better because so many people are now home less, living on the streets, cars and in old RVs . Old RVs parked on the street are the new ghettos.

  60. Re:Follow CA's gun control & ban bump stocks by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Before, I just thought you were hosts file specific crazy. Now I realize you're all around crazy.

  61. Re:The U.S. is actually one of the best places to by 140Mandak262Jamuna · · Score: 1

    It sounds more like you bought more home than you could afford.

    I live way below my means. By standard metrics I would qualify for one to two million mortgage. I choose to live in a half a mill. I come from very poor background. This already feels like the palace of the Maharajah of Mysore to me.

    --
    sed -e 's/Chuck Norris/Rajnikant/g' joke > fact
  62. "Renting or buying?". No. by asackett · · Score: 1

    My wife and I rented until recently, when we bought a place outright. We'd been looking to downsize because we're empty-nesters, and between escaping rent and dramatically reducing our utility bills (in our smaller, more efficient home) we're no longer enslaved by our shelter. We endured four long decades of every decision beginning with consideration of our housing burden, and being free of that burden seems truly fantastic. We're now in a very sustainable, very resilient situation, and won't be splashed when the middle class economy dives back into the sewer because we've never been lured into the consumer credit trap.

    As the predatory lenders are so fond of saying: no credit, no problem.

    --

    Warning: This signature may offend some viewers.

  63. Thought it said "rant crisis" by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1

    I was excited for a second. I misread the title of the story as America's "Rant Crisis" May Be Ending. I was hoping for a study of social media trends that indicated a marked decrease in rantiness. Oh well, maybe someday.

  64. Correction by loslosbaby · · Score: 1

    should be: "...feel that your rent is too damned high."

  65. Basic Info by pikester · · Score: 1

    If you are looking to move every 18 months, you are best renting. If you found a place you want to live for a long time, you are better buying. Short term investments are always a gamble. Long term investments (typically) increase in value in the long term.

  66. find good tenants through your social network by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    People within your social network are just as likely to take advantage of you as a stranger.

    The problem with renting to people you know is if you have to kick them out, or when it comes time to raise the rent.

    Renting to someone I don't know is far less stressful than renting to someone I know.

  67. What... by kenh · · Score: 1

    What does this have to do Technology?

    --
    Ken