Slashdot Mirror


FBI Calls Apple 'Jerks' and 'Evil Geniuses' For Making iPhone Cracks Difficult (itwire.com)

troublemaker_23 shares a report from iTWire: A forensics expert from the FBI has lashed out at Apple, calling the company's security team a bunch of "jerks" and "evil geniuses" for making it more difficult to circumvent the encryption on its devices. Stephen Flatley told the International Conference on Cyber Security in New York on Wednesday that one example of the way that Apple had made it harder for him and his colleagues to break into the iPhone was by recently making the password guesses slower, with a change in hash iterations from 10,000 to 10,000,000. A report on the Motherboard website said Flatley explained that this change meant that the speed at which one could brute-force passwords went from 45 attempts a second to one every 18 seconds. "Your crack time just went from two days to two months," he was quoted as saying. "At what point is it just trying to one up things and at what point is it to thwart law enforcement? Apple is pretty good at evil genius stuff," Flatley added.

348 comments

  1. Can they be that stupid? by Duhavid · · Score: 5, Insightful

    If it is easy to crack for the FBI, it is easy to crack for anyone.
    Any "back doors" will be converted to front doors ( or windows ) soon enough.
    And the timing of such a statement. Meltdown and Spectre still in the news, then this.

    --
    emt 377 emt 4
    1. Re:Can they be that stupid? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 2, Insightful

      And a lot of people - including the FBI guy there - seems to think that his agency is a bunch of saints and always has been and always will.

      They should go and read some biographies not written by FBI people about J. Edgar Hoover.

    2. Re:Can they be that stupid? by necro81 · · Score: 5, Insightful

      If it is easy to crack for the FBI, it is easy to crack for anyone

      To quote CGPGrey: "there's no way to build a digital lock that only angels can open and demons cannot. Anyone saying otherwise is either ignorant of the mathematics or less of an angel than they appear."

    3. Re:Can they be that stupid? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Better yet, they should go read the US Constitution.

    4. Re:Can they be that stupid? by ArtemaOne · · Score: 2

      That's almost treasonous talk when Republicans and Democrats are in charge.

    5. Re:Can they be that stupid? by rwise2112 · · Score: 1

      And a lot of people - including the FBI guy there - seems to think that his agency is a bunch of saints and always has been and always will.

      They should go and read some biographies not written by FBI people about J. Edgar Hoover.

      Yeah, I've watched the X-Files. I know the FBI is full of jerks and evil dicks (I was going to say 'genuises', but let's face it, most are far from it).

      --

      "For every expert, there is an equal and opposite expert"
    6. Re:Can they be that stupid? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      They might as well blame Mother Nature for making water rescues difficult due to waves. Deal with it!

    7. Re:Can they be that stupid? by TheRaven64 · · Score: 1, Funny

      Maybe they own Apple stock. If they're clever, then they bought a load of Apple shares, announced that Apple devices were too secure for them to be able to crack but that all of their competitors' devices weren't, and then waited for the media to pick this up before selling their shares.

      --
      I am TheRaven on Soylent News
    8. Re:Can they be that stupid? by dehachel12 · · Score: 5, Funny

      >'genuises'
      STABLE genuises

    9. Re:Can they be that stupid? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Man I love CGPGrey.

    10. Re:Can they be that stupid? by jellomizer · · Score: 2

      We really need to put our nationalism aside when evaluating security. The FBI willing billions of dollars behind them, may not be any more effective at breaking into a phone then some guy living in his Moms basement. Is isn't Apple being a Jerk, or evil. They are trying to protect their customer base as well as they can. Because if word leaks out that their phones are insecure, Apple can be doomed.

      --
      If something is so important that you feel the need to post it on the internet... It probably isn't that important.
    11. Re:Can they be that stupid? by TheFakeTimCook · · Score: 1

      We really need to put our nationalism aside when evaluating security. The FBI willing billions of dollars behind them, may not be any more effective at breaking into a phone then some guy living in his Moms basement. Is isn't Apple being a Jerk, or evil. They are trying to protect their customer base as well as they can. Because if word leaks out that their phones are insecure, Apple can be doomed.

      Good thing they aren't insecure then, eh?

    12. Re:Can they be that stupid? by MachineShedFred · · Score: 2

      The FBI has had their head up their ass on this thing from the start. They should be championing encryption, as it alone is responsible for preventing possibly millions of cross-state-line ID theft and wire fraud cases that they would be saddled with investigating.

      --
      Slashdot still doesnâ(TM)t support Unicode after it was added to the HTML standard in 1997.
    13. Re:Can they be that stupid? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      "Stephen Flatley" AKA "Archibald Baldrick Baldley, the Bald" is pissed off because he hates freedom, privacy and Apple aiding people in exercising their rights. Oh, also because he's bald and will be forever.

    14. Re:Can they be that stupid? by al0ha · · Score: 1

      This is the mindset of most working in law enforcement - they should be able to do as they please.

      I perform forensic exams from time to time, and have attended conferences etc.; the main problem I have with most of these people is their sense of entitlement; that they are always the good guys. Of course we all know that is incorrect.

      I for one support strong encryption everywhere - privacy is paramount for freedom, and this trumps any notion of anything else - yes I am thinking of the children!

      --
      Did you ever wake up in the morning, with a Zombie Woof behind your eyes? -- FZ
    15. Re:Can they be that stupid? by BlueStrat · · Score: 1

      If it is easy to crack for the FBI, it is easy to crack for anyone.
      Any "back doors" will be converted to front doors ( or windows ) soon enough.
      And the timing of such a statement. Meltdown and Spectre still in the news, then this.

      Perhaps some people will provide an object lesson in what it's like to not have security/privacy for TLA top brass.

      Sooner or later people will decide it's time to expose all the personal/financial/medical/social information of top TLA brass, the politicians that back these policies/programs, and their families. Let the brass/politicians explain it to their spouses and family members. Bring the reality of what they advocate for home to their own doorsteps before they bring it to ours. (well, any more than they already have brought it to ours)

      I'm not personally advocating for anyone to do anything illegal, just pointing out that the TLAs should pause and do some reflecting here, as people will only be pushed so far before there is blowback and serious consequences, that the population is far, far from helpless if pushed too far, and are fully capable of wrecking your digital TLA iShit, networks, databases, etc, etc for you in very short order. There are roughly ~330 million people in the US. If even a small fraction take action that's a lot of manpower.

      Strat

      --
      Progressivism (aka US 'Liberalism'): Ideas so good they need a police/surveillance-state to enforce.
    16. Re:Can they be that stupid? by rogoshen1 · · Score: 1

      Since 9/11, terrorism is what they've relied on for budgetary increases and gain new investigatory powers (at the citizenry's expense)

      Theft and fraud doesn't have quite the same cachet. So rather than focus on threats that actually impact the every day American, they'll create scary Arabic bogeymen, and use that as the cudgel to serve their agenda.

    17. Re:Can they be that stupid? by b0s0z0ku · · Score: 1

      If there weren't theft and fraud, a good number of them would be out on the street, looking for a private-sector job. What makes you think they want to end such crimes?

    18. Re:Can they be that stupid? by Guybrush_T · · Score: 1

      No, that would be illegal. Wait ...

    19. Re: Can they be that stupid? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      "Apple aiding people in exercising their rights"

      Hahahahahahahaha! Good one, bro!

    20. Re: Can they be that stupid? by Reverend+Green · · Score: 1

      Join the Software Workers Union. One big union for the whole industry.

      When we strike, we will turn off the whole internet. Solidarity forever!

    21. Re:Can they be that stupid? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      "genuises"..... ummm.......... yeah..................

      I know what you aren't, genius.

  2. FBI are reminding you they are bullies by ArtemaOne · · Score: 5, Insightful

    Pre-cracked encryption is worthless. Might as well force everyone in the world to use TSA locks for physical security, where there are only 5 keys in the world that open them, providing no security at all.

    1. Re:FBI are reminding you they are bullies by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      ... only 5 keys in the world ...

      There are 7 official keys but I found a locksmith selling 28 versions of key TSA 002.

    2. Re: FBI are reminding you they are bullies by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Just make a tsa looking lock that breaks tsa keys off.

    3. Re: FBI are reminding you they are bullies by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Found the Hillary supporter!

  3. FBI now providing free marketing! by Austerity+Empowers · · Score: 5, Funny

    The FBI is now indicating we should buy Apple devices because the security is good.

    1. Re: FBI now providing free marketing! by fortfive · · Score: 5, Interesting

      Either that, or they are lulling their targets into believing they are secure with apple products.

      â"
      Posted from my secure iPhone

    2. Re:FBI now providing free marketing! by ArtemaOne · · Score: 1

      Interesting point. This is quite the sales pitch for Apple's security practices.

    3. Re:FBI now providing free marketing! by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Maybe this is just me, but government/intelligence agencies repeating so many times the message "Apple is the most secure" makes me thing: they already have an pre-cracked encryption and are trying to enforce this devices between his "enemies".

    4. Re: FBI now providing free marketing! by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1

      Indeed, notably absent is any mention of how much easier it is for them to unlock the latest generations of phones. Fingerprints and face scans are both fairly easy for the FBI to obtain or create.

    5. Re:FBI now providing free marketing! by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Meh. Believing what any three letter agency says makes you a sucker.

    6. Re:FBI now providing free marketing! by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 3, Funny

      Oh absolutely. I once waited for AAA for over an hour and a half when they told me it would be 20 minutes. Talk about feeling like a sucker.

    7. Re: FBI now providing free marketing! by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1

      Indeed, notably absent is any mention of how much easier it is for them to unlock the latest generations of phones. Fingerprints and face scans are both fairly easy for the FBI to obtain or create.

      Except after rebooting, panic lock, or 48 hours the PIN is required to unlock the phone first.

      If you think someone is gonna take your phone for bad purposes, shut it down or panic lock it quick. Then the facial/fingerprint recognition is useless.

    8. Re: FBI now providing free marketing! by Kjella · · Score: 3, Informative

      Except after rebooting, panic lock, or 48 hours the PIN is required to unlock the phone first. If you think someone is gonna take your phone for bad purposes, shut it down or panic lock it quick. Then the facial/fingerprint recognition is useless.

      Or just disable the damn thing if you believe there's any reason the police would want to go on a fishing expedition using your phone. You don't have to use it...

      --
      Live today, because you never know what tomorrow brings
    9. Re: FBI now providing free marketing! by famebait · · Score: 1

      Or maybe that is what they want you to believe...

      --
      sudo ergo sum
    10. Re:FBI now providing free marketing! by geekmux · · Score: 2

      Maybe this is just me, but government/intelligence agencies repeating so many times the message "Apple is the most secure" makes me thing: they already have an pre-cracked encryption and are trying to enforce this devices between his "enemies".

      When cases and prosecutions start moving forward instead of phones sitting around in evidence lockers waiting to be cracked to find the evidence they need, you'll probably have a good idea where their capabilities lie.

    11. Re:FBI now providing free marketing! by famebait · · Score: 1

      Yup. If the IRS threaten to lock you up, just ignore them.

      --
      sudo ergo sum
    12. Re:FBI now providing free marketing! by NicknameUnavailable · · Score: 1

      The Apple board is comprised largely of politicians and others with enough sway to get the FBI to give them free advertising like this.

    13. Re:FBI now providing free marketing! by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      PBS told me it's a sunny day and everything's A-OK. And my neighbors were friendly and the air sweet.

    14. Re:FBI now providing free marketing! by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      "The federal government shouldn't be skewing the market by endorsing commercial products!"

    15. Re: FBI now providing free marketing! by phayes · · Score: 2

      Tinfoilhat
      YEAH! Not only is the FBI trying to lull us all into thinking that iOS devices are harder to crack than the competition,
      EVERYONE ELSE is trying to convince us all of the same thing!!! That PROOVES it!!!!
      "/TinfoilHat

      From the Jailbreaking communities that are shutting down because an exploit for unlocked iOS 11 has yet to be found to bug bounties where an exploit for a locked iDevice is the highest priced mobile platform, everyone says that iOS is the hardest nut to crack.

      But the zealots and crackpots think that it must all be a lie...

      --
      Democracy is a sheep and two wolves deciding what to have for lunch. Freedom is a well armed sheep contesting the issue
    16. Re: FBI now providing free marketing! by networkBoy · · Score: 1

      *this*
      If you have any indication that you may be a person of interest, either by activity or location, then you should *not* be using biometric locking on your phone at all.
      Panic lock is for when you don't expect that you are of interest, but suddenly find you may be.
      Note that once you're detained SOP for police would preclude you from being able to lock your phone, and in fact attempting to do so could get you shot. (reaching into your pocket == going for a gun).

      --
      whois gawk date unzip strip find touch finger mount join nice man top fsck grep eject more yes exit umount sleep dump
    17. Re: FBI now providing free marketing! by TheFakeTimCook · · Score: 1

      Indeed, notably absent is any mention of how much easier it is for them to unlock the latest generations of phones. Fingerprints and face scans are both fairly easy for the FBI to obtain or create.

      Not on the first couple of tries...

    18. Re: FBI now providing free marketing! by TheFakeTimCook · · Score: 3, Insightful

      *this*
      If you have any indication that you may be a person of interest, either by activity or location, then you should *not* be using biometric locking on your phone at all.
      Panic lock is for when you don't expect that you are of interest, but suddenly find you may be.
      Note that once you're detained SOP for police would preclude you from being able to lock your phone, and in fact attempting to do so could get you shot. (reaching into your pocket == going for a gun).

      Apple made the Panic Lock fast and easy enough that MOST people could manage to do it BEFORE being detained.

      That being said, I agree: If you EXPECT to be hassled/detained, then by all means, not only use a Passcode, make it a passPHRASE > 4 characters. You can use up to 52 (IIRC) alphanumeric characters for an iOS passphrase. Let them chew on THAT!

    19. Re:FBI now providing free marketing! by TheFakeTimCook · · Score: 1

      Maybe this is just me, but government/intelligence agencies repeating so many times the message "Apple is the most secure" makes me thing: they already have an pre-cracked encryption and are trying to enforce this devices between his "enemies".

      If they have a pre-cracked solution for iOS devices, think how much EASIER it would be to crack the most insecure mobile OS on the planet, which just so happens to be the most prevalent, too.

      IOW, you make ABSOLUTELY no sense.

    20. Re:FBI now providing free marketing! by TheFakeTimCook · · Score: 1

      The Apple board is comprised largely of politicians and others with enough sway to get the FBI to give them free advertising like this.

      Oh, please.

    21. Re: FBI now providing free marketing! by MachineShedFred · · Score: 1

      Or, if I'm doing something with my phone that the FBI may use to lock me up, how about I just turn off the fingerprint thing and set a password instead of a 4-digit pin. Oh, and turn on the thing that wipes the device after X incorrect attempts. And, because it's an iPhone, you can't extract the flash because half the encryption key is burned into the CPU. Good luck, fuckers.

      After all, if I'm conducting some kind of criminal conspiracy involving my phone, why wouldn't I go the whole way to protect it and myself?

      --
      Slashdot still doesnâ(TM)t support Unicode after it was added to the HTML standard in 1997.
    22. Re:FBI now providing free marketing! by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Liar. That was HBO.

    23. Re: FBI now providing free marketing! by HiThere · · Score: 1

      While passphrases are potentially better, I once found out that only the first few letters of a password I was using were significant. Whoops! This may not be true for the Apple version, but don't rely on it without experimenting.

      --

      I think we've pushed this "anyone can grow up to be president" thing too far.
    24. Re: FBI now providing free marketing! by HiThere · · Score: 1

      Unfortunately, it's the kind of assertion that it's hard to reliably test. If a particular group knows of an exploit and nobody else does, there's a good chance it will be undiscovered for a long time. There are buffer exploits that existed in high value open source code for over a decade before anyone noticed it. (I believe a few showed up just this last year, and I'm not talking about Meltdown, that wasn't open source.)

      So all you can really say is that Apple is secure as far as we can tell...if you follow these rules ...
      And this may be because it's secure, or it may be because the people that hold the exploit are being cagey about how they use it. And there's no way to distinguish between the two cases.

      --

      I think we've pushed this "anyone can grow up to be president" thing too far.
    25. Re: FBI now providing free marketing! by david_thornley · · Score: 1

      4 characters.

      Want to type a passphrase on an iPhone keyboard? Go ahead. The phone will be very secure since nobody including you will be able to activate it.

      Under Touch ID and Passcode on a phone, you can specify that the phone will be wiped after ten tries to unlock it. That means an attacker has a 1% chance of guessing a random passcode before the phone is wiped. If that isn't sufficient, use a longer passcode.

      --
      "When you have eliminated the unacceptable, whatever is left, however improbable, must be the truthiness" - Holmes
    26. Re: FBI now providing free marketing! by TheFakeTimCook · · Score: 1

      While passphrases are potentially better, I once found out that only the first few letters of a password I was using were significant. Whoops! This may not be true for the Apple version, but don't rely on it without experimenting.

      As much as everyone likes to find every little fault with Apple, I think we would have heard something by now...

    27. Re: FBI now providing free marketing! by TheFakeTimCook · · Score: 1

      4 characters.

      Want to type a passphrase on an iPhone keyboard? Go ahead. The phone will be very secure since nobody including you will be able to activate it.

      Under Touch ID and Passcode on a phone, you can specify that the phone will be wiped after ten tries to unlock it. That means an attacker has a 1% chance of guessing a random passcode before the phone is wiped. If that isn't sufficient, use a longer passcode.

      By the way, they are now 6 characters/digits, making it even less likely.

      And I agree, the longer and more involved you make a passphrase, the less it is advisable to have the "10 tries" feature enabled, or.... Whoops!!! Hope you had an iCloud Backup!!!

      Al long, long time ago, I was messing around with a disk-encryption thing I wrote for the Apple ][. It allowed for an up to 32 character Alphanumeric passphrase. So, after I got it working, I decided to test it out... On my Source Code disk for the Encryption Code!

      After about 40 years, It's STILL safe... From me. (D'oh!)

    28. Re:FBI now providing free marketing! by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Actually, that was FBI personnel formally asking Apple personnel for a date. We know what happens later during the night when a smiling FBI agent teasingly calls an Apple engineer "jerk" and "evil genius" during their first meet.

    29. Re: FBI now providing free marketing! by networkBoy · · Score: 1

      I hope no one comes demanding you to decrypt that... you might be a guest of the system for a good long time.

      --
      whois gawk date unzip strip find touch finger mount join nice man top fsck grep eject more yes exit umount sleep dump
    30. Re: FBI now providing free marketing! by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      or maybe THATs what they want you to believe..

    31. Re: FBI now providing free marketing! by Reverend+Green · · Score: 1

      Think much
      Speak little
      Write nothing down

    32. Re: FBI now providing free marketing! by Reverend+Green · · Score: 1

      Sorry broham. When we warned you about pervasive internet surveillance - an open secret among a few hundred thousand networking & security dudes - your type called us crackpots. Turns out that shit is real, and you were the fools.

      Same here. If you really believe it's lawful for Apple or anyone else to sell a phone the gubmint can't p0wn - then truly you are sticking your head in the sand, singing, and hoping reality just goes away.

    33. Re: FBI now providing free marketing! by phayes · · Score: 1

      You can leave the metaphysical bullshit like "how can we really know that we can know what we know" at the door.

      Potential unused exploits by those who never use them are useless -- precisely because they go unused. Thus we use the metrics like the marketplace for exploits and we see that iOS is clearly the most valuable as it is the hardest nut to crack.

      But the zealots think that it must all be a lie and the crackpots think that we can be sidetracked into metaphysical bullshit that calls into question what we know...

      --
      Democracy is a sheep and two wolves deciding what to have for lunch. Freedom is a well armed sheep contesting the issue
    34. Re: FBI now providing free marketing! by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      It's not that hard if they have a fingerprint and it's still allowing print access. Mythbusters beat a commercial print scanner lock 3 different ways in season 4

    35. Re: FBI now providing free marketing! by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      This is exactly what it is. It's a trap.

      Lull the bad guys into believing that apple products are secure. All bad guys have apple products now. Police had over phones to apple... all data is now readable.

      FBI is helping themselves by misinformation(lying).

    36. Re: FBI now providing free marketing! by david_thornley · · Score: 1

      My PIN is four digits, although I can set it to be longer.

      I don't trust data that's only in one place, particularly if I that place is normally my shirt pocket. I keep it backed up.

      The problem I usually have with passphrases is that, while I can remember it, I have trouble remembering little details. Did I capitalize this? How many spaces after the period, or was that a semicolon?

      --
      "When you have eliminated the unacceptable, whatever is left, however improbable, must be the truthiness" - Holmes
    37. Re: FBI now providing free marketing! by TheFakeTimCook · · Score: 1

      My PIN is four digits, although I can set it to be longer.

      I don't trust data that's only in one place, particularly if I that place is normally my shirt pocket. I keep it backed up.

      The problem I usually have with passphrases is that, while I can remember it, I have trouble remembering little details. Did I capitalize this? How many spaces after the period, or was that a semicolon?

      That's EXACTLY why my Apple ][ disk encryption source disk is still "safe" from me. I used a Firesign Theatre phrase I knew as my passphrase, but could never reconstruct the punctuation!

    38. Re:FBI now providing free marketing! by kaatochacha · · Score: 1

      FTD promised me love, but all I got was a bill for flowers.

    39. Re: FBI now providing free marketing! by phayes · · Score: 1

      Nah, I was among those who never denied that the USG was performing supervision as every country with the means (even those like Germany & France that claimed initially not to) do it too. However, there were a bunch of people screaming "UNCONSTITUTIONAL SEARCHES" to which I & others were answering "neither you nor I nor J Random uni professor get to determine what is/isn't constitutional - that is a job for the courts", but there has yet to be a single finding of this pervasive unconstitutional searches that were claimed. The thing is, supervision of non-U.S. citizens has _never_ been unconstitutional as so many crackpots claimed. The communications of U.S. citizens with non-U.S. citizens under supervision begins the grey zone and communications of these U.S. citizens with other U.S. citizens continues it further. As these searches were being performed under the authorisation of Congress, the executive branch & no courts have outlawed them, they aren't unconstitutional. Obama thought they went too far and congress let the legislation lapse. Trump & the Republicans want it back. I don't think that doing so will be useful but then I'm not an elected member of congress.

      I never claimed that the USG cannot search (some) locked iPhones, FBI officials are the ones doing so. You'll certainly come up with some tortured reasoning for determining why we all need to double/triple/quadruplethink the continual statements of pique that FBI officials are directing towards Apple for making unsearchable devices, I feel no such need.

      --
      Democracy is a sheep and two wolves deciding what to have for lunch. Freedom is a well armed sheep contesting the issue
    40. Re: FBI now providing free marketing! by Reverend+Green · · Score: 1

      How's that Stasi bootleather taste?

  4. Either you have security or you dont. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Either you have security or you dont. What would be the point to add half ass measures so it can be easily circumvented? then you might as well not have any security.

  5. it's a decision by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 4, Insightful

    Apple isn't any "smarter" or "evil-genuis-y" than any of the other guys out there. They just decided to take their customer's privacy seriously. Google, Facebook, etc are just as smart or evil genius-y, they just put their targets elsewhere because having their customers' information more public is their business model.

    1. Re:it's a decision by famebait · · Score: 4, Insightful

      I can't speak for anyone else, but I have lots of other issues with Apple, both technical and businesswise.

      It still remains a fact that their core business model revolves around the sale of their own hardware and software.
      The other biggies are either all or largely about monetizing data about their users.
      This difference has real consequences.

      I don't buy for a second that Apple care more about privacy out of the purity of their hearts. But their business model allows them to deliver on that front should they wish to, and lately their market (the users) gives them reason to wish so.

      The others can only really go so far on privacy, no matter what users shout for, bacause their markets (not the users) have very different requirements with regard to personal information.

      --
      sudo ergo sum
    2. Re:it's a decision by cedral · · Score: 1

      Apple, Google, and Facebook all do their level best to serve their customer's needs. The difference is that in the case of Apple their customers are the ones who purchase the phones. Because their product is phones. Google and Facebooks products are information and attention which put's different pressures on them. The results of these varying pressures have Pros and Cons for everybody involved. Apple Maps suck, their voice assistant isn't as good, but their privacy is a better if used carefully.

    3. Re:it's a decision by PetiePooo · · Score: 1

      The others can only really go so far on privacy, no matter what users shout for, bacause their markets (not the users) have very different requirements with regard to personal information.

      This! Exactly this. You don't hear any LEAs complain about how difficult it is to break into an Android device. BECAUSE IT ISN'T!

    4. Re:it's a decision by cyberchondriac · · Score: 1

      This difference has real consequences.

      I don't buy for a second that Apple care more about privacy out of the purity of their hearts. But their business model allows them to deliver on that front should they wish to, and lately their market (the users) gives them reason to wish so.

      Well, they do seem to have given it a lot of thought with the relatively recent emergency feature you can enable that will erase all data on the phone after 10 failed passcode attempts.

      --

      Look back up at my post, now look back down, you're on the Internet. Now look back up. I'm a signature.
    5. Re:it's a decision by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      The nice thing about Android is that you can make it as easy or as hard to break into as you want.

    6. Re:it's a decision by TheFakeTimCook · · Score: 1

      This difference has real consequences.

      I don't buy for a second that Apple care more about privacy out of the purity of their hearts. But their business model allows them to deliver on that front should they wish to, and lately their market (the users) gives them reason to wish so.

      Well, they do seem to have given it a lot of thought with the relatively recent emergency feature you can enable that will erase all data on the phone after 10 failed passcode attempts.

      That's not THAT "recent". But the "Panic Lock" feature is OBVIOUSLY aimed at protecting Privacy from the USER's Point-Of-View, be it from LEOs or the guy with the XKCD password-wrench.

    7. Re:it's a decision by retchdog · · Score: 1

      easy, yes. hard, no, not really; there's a limit on that, unless you actually mean designing a new device from scratch and porting Android to it (without the Play store, presumably).

      --
      "They were pure niggers." – Noam Chomsky
    8. Re:it's a decision by rogoshen1 · · Score: 1

      Apple could also at any point in time pivot and monetize their user base, just like Google. That they don't has nothing to do with ethics, or corporate philosophy, but because at this point in time it's not profitable enough.

      Give it a few years of stagnate product offerings, and a diminished Apple premium, and I'd wager they'd pull the same kind of privacy raping shenanigans as everyone else.

    9. Re:it's a decision by famebait · · Score: 1

      They could, but it would be a hell of a struggle. Where are they going to display ads? Directly on your phone?

      --
      sudo ergo sum
    10. Re:it's a decision by famebait · · Score: 1

      You could, but for most of the phone market, half the point of choosing android is the google integration, and if you use that then securing your device is a moot point because the feeds can just show up at google with a warrant (or possibly without one) without even locating your device. So no point in investing much in it.
      Your hardened android phone would be a reeeeeally niche product.

      --
      sudo ergo sum
  6. did they also called them faggets? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    if not, then its a sales pitch

  7. Who's fault is this? by Gravis+Zero · · Score: 5, Insightful

    Congress Is About To Vote On Expanding the Warrantless Surveillance of Americans

    I think it's hilarious that they don't realize that it's their own insatiable desire to spy on everyone that is the primary driving force behind the spread of encrypted communications. That they don't realize this truth makes it all the more funny.

    --
    Anons need not reply. Questions end with a question mark.
    1. Re:Who's fault is this? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      That they don't realize this truth makes it all the more funny.

      Well, except that they are now using the increased security of devices as rationalization to arrest people in more dangerous ways so as to get to the phone before it is locked down. An example (albeit in the UK, but same principles apply everywhere).

    2. Re:Who's fault is this? by pr0fessor · · Score: 4, Insightful

      What these people forget is that average people use these devices to do online banking/shopping/bill pay and that a lost or stolen device that doesn't have good encryption is just another way identity theft and fraud can happen. If protecting the people from fraud and identity theft that costs it's victims over $15 billion a year isn't a priority for these people then they shouldn't be in law enforcement.

      It's not law enforcement that makes me want to keep my phone encrypted and password protected it's all the thieves and fraud.

    3. Re:Who's fault is this? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      It's ok. They'll just pass a law making it illegal to use a stolen phone to do that.

    4. Re:Who's fault is this? by PetiePooo · · Score: 1

      Well, except that they are now using the increased security of devices as rationalization to arrest people in more dangerous ways so as to get to the phone before it is locked down. An example [bbc.co.uk] (albeit in the UK, but same principles apply everywhere).

      You could also use Ulbricht's takedown in the library as an example. But I'm ok with that.

      Police work should be a little difficult. That helps keep them in check. And they do need to be kept in check. If they really want something, there are ways to get it, but it has to be worth the effort. If there's no effort to getting what they want, they'll just want it all. The ability to automate collection leads naturally to mass collection and thus mass surveillance.

    5. Re:Who's fault is this? by TheFakeTimCook · · Score: 1

      What these people forget is that average people use these devices to do online banking/shopping/bill pay and that a lost or stolen device that doesn't have good encryption is just another way identity theft and fraud can happen. If protecting the people from fraud and identity theft that costs it's victims over $15 billion a year isn't a priority for these people then they shouldn't be in law enforcement.

      It's not law enforcement that makes me want to keep my phone encrypted and password protected it's all the thieves and fraud.

      Amen, brother!

      That's EXACTLY what the LEOs don't get.

    6. Re:Who's fault is this? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      I think you missed my point - dangerous for the owner of the phone.

    7. Re:Who's fault is this? by pr0fessor · · Score: 1

      I would rather they spend their time talking about how to secure your phone in the event it's lost or stolen and how to avoid fraud and scams. These are important issues to the people they are supposed to be protecting but somehow are being ignored for more sensationalism.

    8. Re:Who's fault is this? by rogoshen1 · · Score: 1

      Police work should be a little difficult. That helps keep them in check. And they do need to be kept in check. If they really want something, there are ways to get it, but it has to be worth the effort. If there's no effort to getting what they want, they'll just want it all. The ability to automate collection leads naturally to mass collection and thus mass surveillance.

      Why is this only at +1?

      10/10, would mod up.

    9. Re:Who's fault is this? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      They realize perfectly well that's what drives it. They just intend to do it anyways and don't care what "the little people" think or have to say about it.

  8. One every 18 seconds? What? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    speed at which one could brute-force passwords went from 45 attempts a second to one every 18 seconds

    What? Say again?
    I'm pretty sure my iPhone doesn't take 18 seconds to verify my password. That would make logging in really slow.

    1. Re: One every 18 seconds? What? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Try logging in with 100 wrong passwords first and then tell me how long it takes

    2. Re:One every 18 seconds? What? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Maybe you should try entering the wrong password a few times first?

    3. Re:One every 18 seconds? What? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      speed at which one could brute-force passwords went from 45 attempts a second to one every 18 seconds

      What? Say again?
      I'm pretty sure my iPhone doesn't take 18 seconds to verify my password. That would make logging in really slow.

      18 seconds BETWEEN ATTEMPTS. And I thought the default was after 10 bad attempts to wipe the phone.

    4. Re: One every 18 seconds? What? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 2, Insightful

      No, that's not a default. Everyone with toddlers would be absolutely pissed if it were

    5. Re:One every 18 seconds? What? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Yeah, I was thinking the same thing. I know there's a lot of idiots posting about the delay between attempts, but cracking a password doesn't work that way. You dump the data off the device, and then on a separate computer running the same algorithm you pound it as hard as you can as quickly as you can (hence why increasing from 10,000 rounds to 10,000,000 rounds would significantly slow cracking attempts). Delays work fine on remote systems you control, but are useless in a true cracking environment.

      It's common to make the number of rounds large enough that on device it takes a second or so to complete, but 18 seconds on a cracking PC would probably be nearly a minute on device. That claim doesn't smell right.

    6. Re:One every 18 seconds? What? by TheFakeTimCook · · Score: 1

      speed at which one could brute-force passwords went from 45 attempts a second to one every 18 seconds

      What? Say again?
      I'm pretty sure my iPhone doesn't take 18 seconds to verify my password. That would make logging in really slow.

      No. After you start missing too many PW guesses, it starts increasing the delay between attempts, making it harder and harder to brute-force a PW, even if you DON'T have the "Erase after 10 failed attempts" option enabled.

      Good backup defense, IMHO.

    7. Re:One every 18 seconds? What? by TheFakeTimCook · · Score: 1

      Yeah, I was thinking the same thing. I know there's a lot of idiots posting about the delay between attempts, but cracking a password doesn't work that way. You dump the data off the device, and then on a separate computer running the same algorithm you pound it as hard as you can as quickly as you can (hence why increasing from 10,000 rounds to 10,000,000 rounds would significantly slow cracking attempts). Delays work fine on remote systems you control, but are useless in a true cracking environment.

      It's common to make the number of rounds large enough that on device it takes a second or so to complete, but 18 seconds on a cracking PC would probably be nearly a minute on device. That claim doesn't smell right.

      Doesn't work that way with the Secure Enclave.

    8. Re:One every 18 seconds? What? by MachineShedFred · · Score: 2

      It's user selectable to have either an increasing hardware-enforced delay between attempts, or wipe-after-X-attempts. iPhone defaults to the first behavior.

      --
      Slashdot still doesnâ(TM)t support Unicode after it was added to the HTML standard in 1997.
    9. Re:One every 18 seconds? What? by MachineShedFred · · Score: 0

      Apple made imaging the data off the device impossible with the addition of the "Secure Enclave" in the CPU - half of the encryption key comes from a burned-in value inside the CPU at manufacture, and that value is not recorded anywhere.

      If you pull an image and attempt to unlock it, you would have to crack 256-bit elliptic curve private keys. Good luck with that.

      Source: https://developer.apple.com/do...

      --
      Slashdot still doesnâ(TM)t support Unicode after it was added to the HTML standard in 1997.
    10. Re: One every 18 seconds? What? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      If you do it that was with iOS, you are , as the attacker, hosed.

      Why ?

      Everything on the device is encrypted with AES-256 , using a key that was generated by a Hardware Random Number Generator, and is resident in the Secure Enclave . It is not accessible to iOS, and it does not leave the device if you image it.

      Now that random number wonâ(TM)t have 256 bits of real entropy, but it will be pretty good - probably north of 100 bits of entropy.

      Once you get past that, for user data you then need to do it all again, but with the derived key that is based on the user passcode, but was also blended with another random number .

      This is borderline heat death of the universe using all the computational resources on the planet terrritory.

      Maybe quantum computing will make it easier, but right now, the general approach they have taken is very solid , even if you have nationstate resources

    11. Re: One every 18 seconds? What? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Suuuuuuure, that value isn't recorded *anywhere*.... suuuuuuure.

  9. Failure to understand the goal of the encryption by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 5, Insightful

    They don't do it to thwart law enforcement. They do it to thwart criminals, terrorists, foreign intelligence agents (aka spies), etc.
    If the law enforcement people happen to use the same techniques as those groups, well......

  10. Oh cry me a river dance. by HumanWiki · · Score: 5, Funny

    You're not the first Flatley to stomp your feet about something.

    1. Re:Oh cry me a river dance. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      I wish I had mod points. That's funny!

    2. Re:Oh cry me a river dance. by Demena · · Score: 1

      There you go....

  11. Can I just say by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Boo hoo.

  12. No, they are not by PeeAitchPee · · Score: 5, Insightful

    This is theater, and the FBI / NSA / sppok community at large obviously understands what you are describing. Statements like this are in part how these orgs "prove" to the gov't the need to pass laws to give them what they want.

    1. Re:No, they are not by Duhavid · · Score: 2

      And if they get the laws they want, they know that cyphertext == plaintext? At least for the bad guys.

      If the encryption is breakable, the bad guys will be just as able to break it.
      If some kind of key escrow is used, the bad guys will figure out how to compromise the keys ( bribing devs to insert "bugs", bribing devs to make the keys available to the bad guys in addition to law enforcement, bribing the law enforcement key holders to deliver the keys, etc ).

      And any bad guys who want to encrypt their own stuff can make it happen without intentional break-ability outside of the commercially available stuff ( hiring mathematicians and developers, using one time pads, etc )

      --
      emt 377 emt 4
    2. Re:No, they are not by NicknameUnavailable · · Score: 2

      Also probably to lull criminals into a false sense of security. With backdoors and exploits in every chip the crypto is virtually worthless, but people don't put compromising information in their phones if they think they are compromised so they have to rant about how impenetrable they are such that criminals start using them again.

    3. Re: No, they are not by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 5, Insightful

      Maybe you don't understand. The FBI ARE the bad guys. Make sense now?

    4. Re: No, they are not by Dread_ed · · Score: 1

      Youâ(TM)re thinking about it all wrong.

      To them, you are the bad guys. The real âoebad guysâ are simply the competition. Large corporations and banks are their employers.

      They want citizens to have no encryption, period. The fourth amendment is an abomination to them. It should only apply to elected officials and oligarchs, and only under very limited circumstances.

      They figure if they can get a good chokehold on the public use of encryption they can establish a higher eschelon of encryption for use by themselves and their employers.

      Itâ(TM)s just like everything else that government does. It starts when someone says, âoeHey! Thatâ(TM)s not right! Someone should do something!â And ends with us paying for the government to take away our rights and abuse us.

      --
      When the only tool you have is a claw hammer every problem starts to look like the back of someone's skull.
    5. Re: No, they are not by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Hear! Hear! Evil genius is the police stateâ(TM)s label for resistors to the law-clawing at independence and a sense of freedom. (Giggle and skitter in the shadows). Hahzah!

  13. Pointless by nehumanuscrede · · Score: 3, Interesting

    The only brand of criminals the FBI will catch are the stupid ones.

    The more intelligent types realize LE focuses on the phones too much and will simply ensure that they do not conduct their business via the devices in question.

    They must know this so it begs the question once again: Are they really interested in criminals phones, or the ability to look at anyones phones on demand ?

    Though the way LE treats folks these days, we're all pretty much criminals in their eyes.

    It did cross my mind that they're simply blowing smoke to cover the fact that they have methods to break into them.

    All the acting ensures folks believe they're still secure.

    Just a thought.

    1. Re:Pointless by coofercat · · Score: 1

      Being able to break into phones might well move the 'real' criminals onto other ways to communicate, thus keeping the FBI out of the picture. However, it does generally have the effect of putting the criminals costs up a bit - thus more of the criminal spectrum moves towards the stupid end because they don't have the funds to remain secure.

      Whilst it's of limited benefit, it's not entirely without benefit.

      As for the acting part of the show - that costs nothing, yet has huge benefits (if it's really just acting).

    2. Re:Pointless by Fnord666 · · Score: 1

      The only brand of criminals the FBI will catch are the stupid ones.

      They're just trying to reduce the competition.

      --
      'The tyrant will always find pretext for his tyranny.' - Aesop's Fables
    3. Re:Pointless by TheGratefulNet · · Score: 1

      my GUESS (total non-informational guess) is that there already is an exploit (or, even apple GIVING the leos what they want) and this is all a smokescreen to keep up appearances.

      I believe (again, no actual info) that the nsa has all it needs, it has enough might and power and influence to get what it wants.

      I believe all encryption has been broken by the three letter agencies and we are all being led astray by false info. the narrative, if you will.

      why do I believe this? just being alive for over 50 years and seeing what we have evolved into, what amazing amount of power the TLAs have and how much hunger they have to spy on everyone.

      also the fact that I know, for a fact, that the government has had the ability to 'make life difficult' for any company not wanting to play ball (think CALEA) with the feds. you cannot be a business that does data comm in the US and not play ball with those bad guys (yes, I believe they are now the bad guys).

      so, I will never trust a phone, ever again, no matter who makes it. I know that there are levels in silicon and firmware that even google does not get to see. carriers get some view, others get other views, but there are layers and layers. because of this, its not something I am interested in (to develop on) since its never going to be OUR devices (it never was).

      from now on, pocket computers are spy devices that also offer us some services.

      we need to start thinking like that, and stop believing companies who say things to further their agenda.

      --

      --
      "It is now safe to switch off your computer."
    4. Re:Pointless by HiThere · · Score: 1

      Just to make a point: The NSA is not the FBI, and doesn't necessarily share it's information with them. And vice-versa.

      This doesn't mean the FBI doesn't already have all the info it needs, but saying the NSA does isn't asserting that the FBI does. To some extent they cooperate, but they are also in competition for power and funding.

      --

      I think we've pushed this "anyone can grow up to be president" thing too far.
    5. Re:Pointless by david_thornley · · Score: 1

      It may be possible to attack backups, either in iCloud or in computers less secured than the phone. Apple has put a good amount of work into making the phone uncrackable, even to them. Apple gets most of its money from selling stuff to people, so iPhone owners are Apple's customers. They have a financial interest in keeping their customers secure.

      There's no reason to think modern crypto is cracked. We know from energy requirements that a 256-bit AES (or similar cipher) key can't be cracked by brute force using only the resources of the Solar System. The NSA does stay ahead of private-sector crypto, but as far as I can tell not by that much, and the NSA seems to think AES is good enough for top secret government documents, including ones they don't want cracked even decades in the future.

      --
      "When you have eliminated the unacceptable, whatever is left, however improbable, must be the truthiness" - Holmes
  14. I know that story... by namgge · · Score: 3, Insightful

    I goes: "Oh please Brer Fox, whatever you do, please don't throw me into the briar patch."

  15. Free Apple ads. Sreisand effect. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Iâ(TM)m sure the government realizes this sort of thing makes people who care about security give Apple more credibility. This is exactly how one could use the Streisand effect to make sure that everyone motivated to hide their tracks uses an iPhone. This is exactly what I would do if I was a government agency with an iPhone master key or back door.

  16. FBI, is your security hard to crack? Why? by geekmux · · Score: 5, Insightful

    I cannot believe we actually hire allegedly educated individuals to work in the FBI who can't fucking grasp the concept that Apple didn't make good security because of the FBI. Apple made good security because of the actual evil in the world, and to protect their customers.

    Wonder how the FBI would feel if we turned around and started asking them the same damn thing about their encryption. How dare they make it very difficult to brute-force. Of all the nerve...

  17. That's nothing by TimothyHollins · · Score: 2

    Come back when they're calling them "scoundrels" and "nerf herders".

  18. Good by Hugh+Jorgen · · Score: 0

    For Apple stock. You're just making the case for even law abiding citizens to buy. Fourth Amendment support doesn't make or indicate that someone is a criminal.

  19. Courts can order you to unlock your phone by alternative_right · · Score: 1

    Courts can order you to unlock your phone, which means that the FBI is talking about investigations, not prosecutions. I suppose it depends on the investigation; if the phone contains the location someone in North America of a nuclear device set to explode in the next hour, then it might be great if the device got unlocked. Google et al. just cooperate with law enforcement; Apple has opted not to give itself a back door so it does not have to deal with the drama. Public opinion might change after the mushroom cloud however.

    1. Re:Courts can order you to unlock your phone by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      phone contains the location someone in North America of a nuclear device set to explode in the next hour, then it might be great if the device got unlocked.

      Pfff. This kind of premise is cheesy-action-movies-only. No need to worry about it.

      If I were the FBI, I would worry more about the phones rebooting and slowing down on purpose due to badly designed/sized battery. That got to get in the way of that brute force attack effort more than anything the "evil geniuses" come up with.

    2. Re:Courts can order you to unlock your phone by hjf · · Score: 1

      "Might"? Remember 9/11?

    3. Re:Courts can order you to unlock your phone by shess · · Score: 1

      "Might"? Remember 9/11?

      Yeah, public opinion will change. All of our phones will require full real-time uploads, because the government will be all like "We're sure their phone has contact information for other people, even though we didn't figure out which phone we wanted until a few weeks after the event. Unfortunately, the phone was destroyed in the event so we think in the future we should receive the information in advance."

    4. Re:Courts can order you to unlock your phone by ghoul · · Score: 1

      You know the solution to not having a nuke go off in USA?

      Stop pissing off people. There solved and did not need turning USA into East Germany.

      --
      **Life is too short to be serious**
    5. Re:Courts can order you to unlock your phone by TheFakeTimCook · · Score: 1

      Courts can order you to unlock your phone, which means that the FBI is talking about investigations, not prosecutions. I suppose it depends on the investigation; if the phone contains the location someone in North America of a nuclear device set to explode in the next hour, then it might be great if the device got unlocked. Google et al. just cooperate with law enforcement; Apple has opted not to give itself a back door so it does not have to deal with the drama. Public opinion might change after the mushroom cloud however.

      Risk is the price of freedom, fucker.

    6. Re:Courts can order you to unlock your phone by HiThere · · Score: 1

      Yeah, I remember. Multiple agents tried to alert the FBI central office up to months ahead of time and were ignored. IIRC, even Germany sent in info about the upcoming attack and were ignored.

      But you're right, within hours after the attack new legislation had been passed. It had been written ahead of time. And public opinion generally supported it. One Senator who was opposing the legislation received anthrax spores in the mail which turned out to come from a US Army biowar lab.

      This doesn't prove that the attack didn't originate from outside (though the FBI has been proven to have inspired several "terrorist" attacks that didn't run to completion), but it sure seems to suggest they didn't want to stop it.

      --

      I think we've pushed this "anyone can grow up to be president" thing too far.
    7. Re:Courts can order you to unlock your phone by david_thornley · · Score: 1

      The Wired article says that the courts might be able to order you to unlock your phone. The case law is unsettled on this (and legislative action won't help, because it's a Fifth Amendment thing).

      Nobody's iPhone is going to have the location of a nuclear device on it, unless it belongs to the person with the nuke, who probably has his or her phone with him or her.

      --
      "When you have eliminated the unacceptable, whatever is left, however improbable, must be the truthiness" - Holmes
    8. Re:Courts can order you to unlock your phone by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Sure, and having the ability to speak Spanish will be useful if Argentina takes over the world.

      But as we have finite resources it makes more sense to focus on things that have a nontrivial chance of happening like, say, identity theft, wire fraud, invasion of privacy (revenge porn, outing people with unpopular private habits, etc.) many of which are the FBI's job to deal with hapen every day, and can be prevented or at least made less common by use of strong encryption.

      I mean, what are the odds somone on the ball enough to steal a nuke 1) lets their iPhone slip into the FBI's hands and 2) doesn't have the nuke rigged to blow early if somone breaches the door to get to it. Plus, we really should be addressing the elephant in the room that this implies nukes are easier to crack than iPhones which really should be considered the fault of whoever built the nuke which probably isn't Apple.

  20. The real jerks: by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    The real jerks are people drawn to law enforcement as a career, from Feds on down to local cops. Many of them WANT to be able to be paid for bullying other people.

  21. You know FBI.. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1

    A bunch of bitchy little girls.

    1. Re:You know FBI.. by Opportunist · · Score: 1

      Only on the internet.

      And I swear she said she was 18!

      --
      We used to have a Bill of Rights. Now, with the rights gone, all we have left is the bill.
  22. Not black and white by daveschroeder · · Score: 1, Interesting

    The question, as always, is whether the good outweighs the bad.

    If we could somehow create magical impenetrable *physical* fortresses that cannot be opened or accessed by the duly-empowered law enforcement and judicial powers of a democratic society, would we say that's just the way it is?

    Or would we have a discussion about it on the context of public good and the rule of law?

    There is no one "right" answer to a question like this save the ones we collectively and imperfectly come to as a society. Absolutist assertions that it is either unbreakable, impenetrable encryption for all, or nothing, are false.

    I wrote this on an earlier matter:

    Apple believes it is protecting freedom. It's wrong. Here's why:

    http://cimsec.org/apple/22159

    1. Re:Not black and white by Thyamine · · Score: 2

      Yes, this. I hate that people like to try and make it all into sound bites, when it's much more complicated. Everyone wants (or should want) security and privacy, but we also want law enforcement to be able to protect us. When those two conflict, how do we handle it? Everyone wants the simple one sentence, headline-style answer, and there isn't one.

      --
      I will shred my adversaries. Pull their eyes out just enough to turn them towards their mewing, mutilated faces. Illyria
    2. Re:Not black and white by b0s0z0ku · · Score: 1, Informative

      You have way too much belief and trust in the US as a "democracy" and "free society." This kind of society ended after 9/11, if it ever existed at all. We might as well build as many fortresses as possible (even if they contain nothing illegal), just to frustrate law enforcement which has made an industry out of eroding Americans' freedoms.

      You know what we should do to prevent terrorism? Stop pissing off the terrorists. That's right -- stop fighting wars in places where we don't belong. Stop playing favorites in the Middle East and Central Asia. None of the countries there are our problem. You might think of it as capitulation or surrender, but not all fights are worth fighting.

      But you, as a member of the US military, can't be expected to support putting yourself out of a job.

    3. Re:Not black and white by b0s0z0ku · · Score: 4, Interesting

      "Law enforcement" hasn't protected the average American in decades -- it's been turned into an industry with its own lobbyists, fueled by laws that allow mass long-term incarceration. Sadly, many Americans support it, but this country would be a better place if police powers were severely curtailed.

    4. Re:Not black and white by ledow · · Score: 4, Insightful

      I hate to defend Apple (literally.. I do HATE to defend Apple), but:

      "There is no one "right" answer to a question like this save the ones we collectively and imperfectly come to as a society. Absolutist assertions that it is either unbreakable, impenetrable encryption for all, or nothing, are false."
      "Apple believes it is protecting freedom. It's wrong."

      Well, that absolutist assertion seems like you have an answer in mind.

      You're trying to mask it, but a backdoor is a backdoor. If Apple are capable of creating a version of the OS that will update over an existing version on a targeted iPhone and thus render the encryption on their iPhone moot - then there is NOTHING stopping a person at Apple from, say, reading the president's private bedroom photos from his iPhone.

      You can say "it won't happen", you can say "nobody would do that", you can say "you just need to pick people carefully", etc. but the fact is that at the end of the day some small group of Apple employees have some method of access to every Apple device on the planet. To suggest that this could never be misused would be false.

      As such, to not even have THE CAPABILITY is to render the possibility moot. No, we won't push out targeted firmware to an individual iPhone identified by law enforcement - we'll design systems such that we CAN'T EVEN DO THAT (i.e. one iPhone is no different to any other and can't be identified by such a system). That's how to secure your customers and your business. A kind of legal self-denial if you like. The best way to ensure you can't get drunk is to not have the alcohol in the house at all.

      Your other arguments in that article are literal red herrings;

      "Apple is welcome to use every legal mechanism possible to fight this court order â" that is their absolute right. But to start and grow their company in the United States, to exist here because of the fundamental environment we create for freedom and innovation, and then to act as if Apple is somehow divorced from the US and owes it nothing, even when ordered by a court to do so, is a puzzling and worrisome position."

      So... because Fuck Yeah America! they are required to kowtow and not use a valid legal argument in a US court? I think that's what that article says there. If the US court wished to sanction them, they could and would. You could literally stop Apple operating overnight if the courts so determined that they were that non-compliant. But they presented an argument, which clearly won enough doubt to not push through such orders to being prosecutions for failing to comply. And the rest of the "because they're in the US, they should give us something" stuff is just a distraction based on national pride.

      This is about the only thing Apple have ever done that I approve of. It shows that they have at least some semblance of a principle, and - amazingly - it would be much cheaper and easier to comply. They are literally costing themselves money to secure a freedom. That's the one good thing I've ever been able to say about Apple, ever.

      And it is securing your freedom too. How? If a guy at Apple can do it, so can a guy at the NSA order him to do it and also to then never speak of it, and that guy at the NSA could easily be working for a foreign state, or to try to discredit the president, or be someone who wants to set you up, etc.

      Literally, a dystopian state would love this... hey, just let me tap into everyone's iPad and iPhone, and by the way you cannot ever say a thing. If you haven't seen, powers - once established - are universally misused for a long time until they're brought back under control (if at all). Some councils in the UK are still using "anti-terror" legislation to get personal details on people who put the wrong bins out on the wrong days. I kid you not.

      By not allowing the creep to start, publicly, visibly, legally, at great expense and when they could just kowtow, Apple has done more of a service in this small act than can be countered by stopping a terrorist.

    5. Re:Not black and white by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Could you put that again in a car analogy?

    6. Re:Not black and white by Maritz · · Score: 0

      That won't work with a Timothy McVeigh type. And you've got a lot of those coming through the woodwork now. Of course, they can't be terrorists because they're white, but they can still blow stuff up and kill lots of people. Maybe you'll need a new word for when white people do it, I dunno.

      --
      I do not want your cheap brainburning drugs. They are useless for work. And I am a working man today.
    7. Re:Not black and white by daveschroeder · · Score: 1

      Neo-Nazi charged with terrorism in attempt to wreck Amtrak train, complaint says

      A white man who was involved with neo-Nazi groups and who attended a "Unite the Right" rally in Charlottesville has been charged with terrorism for attempting to wreck an Amtrak train, according to a criminal complaint filed in US District Court.

      https://www.cnn.com/2018/01/09...

      I also made a helpful graphic for determining when something is "terrorism":

      https://twitter.com/daveschroe...

    8. Re: Not black and white by Zero__Kelvin · · Score: 0

      Bullshit. The answer is simple. It is impossible to have security and not have security at the same time. There is no security, except when it comes to the FBI. There is no discussion. It is that simple, because math.

      --
      Guns don't kill people; Physics kills people! - John Lithgow as Dick Solomon on Third Rock From The Sun
    9. Re:Not black and white by jenningsthecat · · Score: 2

      You have way too much belief and trust in the US as a "democracy" and "free society." This kind of society ended after 9/11, if it ever existed at all ... You know what we should do to prevent terrorism? Stop pissing off the terrorists. That's right -- stop fighting wars in places where we don't belong. Stop playing favorites in the Middle East and Central Asia. None of the countries there are our problem.

      This, exactly. In the aftermath of 9/11, I repeatedly said "By all means, hunt down and kill the bastards who did this to you. But then give your heads a shake, do some soul searching, and ask yourself what you did to them to make them so pissed off that they would sacrifice their own lives to fly planes into your buildings". Instead, government took advantage of the attacks, and the anger and fear they generated among Americans, to hugely expand and consolidate their own power base.

      As for the security of the encryption provided by Apple and other corporations, and what the TLA's say publicly about that encryption, I consider it all bullshit until proven otherwise. Corporations and governments are close frenemies, and their common enemy / patsy is the public over whom they exercise their dominion. If we want to fix both both terrorism and governmental abuses, THAT is the place to start. Issues like encryption are just smokescreens.

      --
      'The Economy' is a giant Ponzi scheme whose most pitiable suckers are the youngest among us and the yet-unborn.
    10. Re:Not black and white by b0s0z0ku · · Score: 2

      Domestic terrorists been coming out of the woodwork literally since the 1800s. The KKK. The Haymarket bomb. Weather Underground. Symbionese Army. McVeigh. The "Sons of Gestapo" train wrecking incident. Not to mention mass shootings.

      None of this lead to the kind of expansion of the mass surveillance and security-theater apparatus that's happened since 9/11. We'd be better of as a country if we took the advice "never forget" as sentimental garbage and forgot 9/11 ever happened. Moved on, stopped quaking in fear and thanking over-reaching cops for "keeping us safe."

    11. Re: Not black and white by c6gunner · · Score: 1

      You know what we should do to prevent terrorism? Stop pissing off the terrorists.

      Appeasement is the best policy! This is why I always tell women that the best way to prevent rape is to stop saying "no".

    12. Re:Not black and white by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0, Funny

      "Law enforcement" hasn't protected the average American in decades

      I see this attitude from time to time, and I think it's proof that the person uses cannabis.
      Regular Americans disagree with you. The cops are on our side, and always have been. You're a weird minority.
      I believe in the Fourth Amendment, which says reasonable searches and seizures are the ones they get a warrant for.
      Judges in this country are liberal. The warrants that get issued are statistically going to be pretty good.

    13. Re:Not black and white by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      It's okay that people die though. They just have to come to terms that death is inevitable and their life is meaningless anyway. The world doesn't have to assuage their stupid fears. Too bad if they don't like it. Youre gonna die and that's that.

      If a few terrified idiots have to die here and there to ensure a world with maximal freedom - that is an acceptable tradeoff. That is worth much more than a few hand-wringing shitbags who can't cope with reality.

    14. Re: Not black and white by b0s0z0ku · · Score: 1

      This is more like a bunch of bullies fighting down the street, and us wanting to jump in, even if whether they get black eyes doesn't concern us. They're not family or friends, so why is this our problem?

    15. Re:Not black and white by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      You're trying to mask it, but a backdoor is a backdoor. If Apple are capable of creating a version of the OS that will update over an existing version on a targeted iPhone and thus render the encryption on their iPhone moot - then there is NOTHING stopping a person at Apple from, say, reading the president's private bedroom photos from his iPhone.

      Guess what: they are.

      They have ability to force the "secure enclave" to accept new firmware because they have the Apple code signing keys.

      There is literally already a backdoor on every iPhone, it's just a backdoor that only Apple can use.

    16. Re:Not black and white by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      > then there is NOTHING stopping a person at Apple from, say, reading the president's private bedroom photos from his iPhone.

      For the sake of the country and the world, oh dear gods no!

    17. Re:Not black and white by Calydor · · Score: 2

      You can say "it won't happen", you can say "nobody would do that", you can say "you just need to pick people carefully", etc. but the fact is that at the end of the day some small group of Apple employees have some method of access to every Apple device on the planet. To suggest that this could never be misused would be false.

      https://xkcd.com/538/

      Just replace 'user' with 'kidnapped Apple developer'.

      --
      -=This sig has nothing to do with my comment. Move along now=-
    18. Re:Not black and white by apoc.famine · · Score: 1

      There is no one "right" answer to a question like this save the ones we collectively and imperfectly come to as a society.....Apple believes it is protecting freedom. It's wrong.

      Yes there is a right answer, you fascist shill. The answer is "Fuck off you bunch of spying police state asshats."

      There is nothing magical about technology which somehow makes criminals into super villains the likes of which it will take a batman to counter. Our law enforcement still has all the tools they used over the last 100 years to counter crime, plus a metric fuckton of additional technology. They have the ability to track ceill phones by the towers they connect to, they have facial recognition and licence plate readers, half of the new cars out there come with tracking devices like OnStar, they have an ever increasing ability to track all financial purchases as we move further away from cash, etc., etc., etc.

      There is no legitimate reason to let law enforcement snoop through everyone's private life. None! That's serious fascist police state shit right there, and we have absolutely no reason to enable it. We've got orders of magnitude more people dying from opioids and car accidents than all of the terrorist attacks and crimes combined. Using shit like this to justify deep, untraceable, unnoticeable spying into the lives of the populace is a gross authoritarian overreach.

      We used to be the land of the free and home of the brave, but not anymore. I believe that someone once noted that those willing to exchange freedom for security deserve neither.

      --
      Velociraptor = Distiraptor / Timeraptor
    19. Re: Not black and white by religionofpeas · · Score: 1

      They're not family or friends, so why is this our problem?

      Because they control a large portion of the world's oil.

    20. Re:Not black and white by Aighearach · · Score: 1

      No, most of us want law enforcement to enforce the law if it is violated. Their job is not to protect me, their job is to arrest you after you hurt me.

    21. Re:Not black and white by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      I consider it all bullshit until proven otherwise.

      And that is the keystone of conspiracists since you can't prove a negative. How do you propose it can be proven otherwise assuming it isn't bullshit?

    22. Re: Not black and white by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Because they live down the street but are threatening each other with chemical weapons, biological weapons, and nuclear weapons, so we are now in the blast radius. Not to mention their goal is to run and control the entire neighborhood, including the part we live in, and are known to decapitate those who get in their way.

    23. Re: Not black and white by b0s0z0ku · · Score: 1

      We have ample non-renewable energy sources available in the US. Oil, natural gas, uranium, etc. Let the countries that actually need the oil fight the wars.

    24. Re:Not black and white by b0s0z0ku · · Score: 1

      Except for the whole thing about warrantless searches being allowed.

    25. Re: Not black and white by c6gunner · · Score: 1

      They're not family or friends, so why is this our problem?

      Because some of us are no longer beholden to such a tribal mentality. Concerning yourself only with family and friends might have been fine 10,000 years ago; today we tend to have a wider outlook. If you exepct us to turn back the clock, the onus is on you to explain why.

    26. Re: Not black and white by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Whoever downvoted this is a fascist cocksucker.

    27. Re: Not black and white by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Why are we special and expected to give up our safety and liberties to save bullies who've been fighting for centuries? Why can't China or Italy step up for a change?

      Why do we have to be the world's cop instead of enjoying our wealth and neutrality?

    28. Re: Not black and white by Khashishi · · Score: 1

      They might not be your family or your friends, but I can guarantee you that there are US citizens with family in any given country and I have friends from many countries. America is a melting pot, despite the desires of the nationalists out there.

    29. Re: Not black and white by b0s0z0ku · · Score: 1

      I'm all for civilian aid. I'm all for accepting refugees. I'm just against running expensive military homicide campaigns worldwide that make our government both bankrupt and despised.

      We can't fight everyone's wars for them.

    30. Re:Not black and white by ScentCone · · Score: 1

      No, most of us want law enforcement to enforce the law if it is violated. Their job is not to protect me, their job is to arrest you after you hurt me.

      Except that in many cases, crime is committed by people (and organizations) that have committed crime before, and which are engaged in planning or conducting more crime. So while you may not have been a victim of one of those previous crimes, law enforcement may well be working to protect you from a future crime to be committed out of the same person/organization or their associates. Here in our county, we have a real problem with MS-13. They recruit new people all the time. Some 14 year old may not yet have committed a crime on their behalf, but is pretty much by definition being positioned to do just that. I very much want local law enforcement working to prevent that from happening when they have an indication of what's coming.

      --
      Don't disappoint your bird dog. Go to the range.
    31. Re: Not black and white by ScentCone · · Score: 1

      Sure, we have lots of oil and oil-ish things here. But the problem is that oil sitting in the middle east is, when left up for grabs for groups like ISIS, an easily sold way to fund a whole bunch of evil shit they'd like to do both there and around the world.

      --
      Don't disappoint your bird dog. Go to the range.
    32. Re: Not black and white by ScentCone · · Score: 1

      We can't fight everyone's wars for them.

      We don't. We pretty much stick to things in which we have a vested interest.

      --
      Don't disappoint your bird dog. Go to the range.
    33. Re: Not black and white by c6gunner · · Score: 1

      People asking "why do I have to be the one to do something?" is how you end up with dozens of people walking by a violent mugging, and nobody stopping to help.

    34. Re: Not black and white by b0s0z0ku · · Score: 1

      Fine -- so let other neighboring countries clean up their own mess (regarding ISIS).

    35. Re: Not black and white by b0s0z0ku · · Score: 1

      Maybe it's time to re-think what we're interested in fighting for. We no longer need foreign oil. We can't save people who are unwilling to be saved.

    36. Re: Not black and white by c6gunner · · Score: 1

      That's kinda begging the question. How do you determine who wants to be saved? Many people in Iraq and Afghanistan welcomed our intervention; did the people of Iraq and Afghanistan want to be saved? How about the people of Vietnam? Korea? The Balkans? By which criteria are you determining which states "want to be saved"? Or are you just going based on a simplistic "if we succeeded then they wanted to be saved" kind of retroactive assessment?

    37. Re:Not black and white by hawk · · Score: 1

      >You know what we should do to prevent terrorism?
      >Stop pissing off the terrorists.

      This is why Neville Chamberlain received the Nobel Peace Prize for preventing a second Great War. A little rough on Poland but that was one of England's business . . .

      hawk

    38. Re: Not black and white by b0s0z0ku · · Score: 1

      It's more like the violent mugging is 12000 miles away, and you fly there to kill the mugger. But while you're gone, your wife gets raped and your kids get their lunch money stolen.

    39. Re: Not black and white by ScentCone · · Score: 1

      So if we leave it up to their neighbors and their neighbors don't do a good enough job and we end up suffering another large-scale attack, well, at least we left it up to the right people?

      --
      Don't disappoint your bird dog. Go to the range.
    40. Re: Not black and white by b0s0z0ku · · Score: 1

      If we suffer another 9/11, so what? 4000 people died on 9/11. 9/11 was 16.5 years ago. 250 deaths/yr are nothing compared to deaths from smoking, guns, obesity, and cars. We could save more lives by putting the money spent on wars towards American public healthcare.

    41. Re: Not black and white by Khashishi · · Score: 1

      I guess you have to go by the majority view of the people. But it's not so easy to obtain that in places where free speech is stifled and elections are corrupt. I suppose having some people on the ground, polling random people and finding out what they think. This should be done before we invade any country, unless they attacked us (or our allies) first.

      I'm not saying that if the majority of people want regime change, we should go in and give it to them. But if the majority of people don't want regime change, that's a pretty damned good reason to stay the hell out. Unless they attack us, of course. And if they harbor groups that attack us? Well, that's where it gets hairy. Do we invade Saudi Arabia? But they are a good business partner (oil for weapons).

    42. Re:Not black and white by orgelspieler · · Score: 1

      Your logic is flawed in several places. It's almost like you went to the Wikipedia article on fallacies and tried to figure out how to work as many different ones in as you could.

      Obviously, somebody's beliefs on whether the police provide them adequate protection is not indicative of cannabis use. I am a counterexample, and there are several others. This is a case of hasty generalization and appeal to motive.

      "Regular Americans disagree with you." That's argumentum ad populum, and a little bit "no true Scotsman."

      "The cops are on our side, and always have been." Begging the question, ipse dixit, and appeal to tradition.

      "You're a weird minority." Ad hominem and pejorative language

      The fourth amendment says the security of your person and things against unreasonable search and seizure shall not be violated, and that no warrants shall be issued without probable cause. It does not say that all searches without a warrant are unreasonable. You are reading too much into it, and evidence from reasonable searches, even without a warrant, is allowed to be entered into a case. You are essentially denying the antecedent: if warrant, then reasonable; not warrant, therefore not reasonable.

      "Judges in this country are liberal." Thought terminating cliche.

      "The warrants that get issued are statistically going to be pretty good." Inductive fallacy, and appeal to probability.

    43. Re:Not black and white by orgelspieler · · Score: 1

      I forgot to mention. I think the GP is completely wrong. Just not for the reasons you said.

    44. Re:Not black and white by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1

      Your other arguments in that article are literal red herrings;

      That word... I do not think it means what you think it means.

    45. Re:Not black and white by HiThere · · Score: 1

      All the evidence I am aware of is consistent with the assertion that the upper levels of the executive branch intentionally chose to not prevent the attack which happened on 9/11. It's actually consistent with the assertion that they initiated it, but that's a bit of a stretch. There is reasonably good evidence that they were repeatedly warned of it ahead of time, with some specifics, and that all they did about it was to ready legislation to push through after the event.

      Proof, either way, does not seem to be available.

      --

      I think we've pushed this "anyone can grow up to be president" thing too far.
    46. Re:Not black and white by david_thornley · · Score: 1

      Thing is, there isn't a fortress of any sort that can be opened only by law enforcement. We have a choice between secure phones and insecure phones, not phones that are secure unless and until some law enforcement person gets a warrant.

      Law enforcement can get into my house, but only by using some skill not many people have (lock-picking) or leaving something obviously broken. Clearly the private-sector bad guys can get in by the same means, but they usually can't pick locks and usually would rather not leave obvious external evidence. There's a sort of balance there.

      With a phone, there is no balance. If the FBI can break into it, all it takes is one leak and any reasonably well-off private party can also (possibly any script kiddie). If law enforcement can get in, so can identity thieves.

      --
      "When you have eliminated the unacceptable, whatever is left, however improbable, must be the truthiness" - Holmes
    47. Re: Not black and white by c6gunner · · Score: 1

      But it's not so easy to obtain that in places where free speech is stifled and elections are corrupt.

      That's part of the problem, sure, but what I was trying to point out is that when people talk about how we should have stayed out of a particular war they're almost universally basing that assessment on the result rather than the situation which actually led up to the war. You can most clearly see this in how they talk about Korea vs Vietnam. Those who actually know about the Korean war almost universally agree that it was a good war well worth fighting, but the same people will then turn around and say we should never have been in Vietnam. Yet the situations and objectives leading up to both of those wars were nearly identical; the only difference between them was the outcome.

      If your objection to a particular war is based entirely on the fact that we didn't win it's safe to say that your input on foreign policy decisions isn't going to be all that valuable.

    48. Re: Not black and white by b0s0z0ku · · Score: 1

      We shouldn't have been in Korea either -- we wouldn't have lost much if the entire peninsula fell under Soviet or Chinese control, and we wouldn't be spending blood and treasure maintaining the DMZ today.

    49. Re:Not black and white by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      >If we could somehow create magical impenetrable *physical* fortresses that cannot be opened or accessed by the duly-empowered law enforcement and judicial powers of a democratic society, would we say that's just the way it is?

      Yes. We would. Because you are either isolated from the world in a jail of your own choosing or you have to come outside eventually.

      Your blog is bad and you should feel bad.

    50. Re: Not black and white by b0s0z0ku · · Score: 1

      If we were honest and ACTUALLY concerned about security, we would have sanctioned the Saudis (or even invaded) on 9/12/2001.

    51. Re: Not black and white by c6gunner · · Score: 1

      Well, at least you're consistent.

    52. Re:Not black and white by david_thornley · · Score: 2

      Can the Secure Enclave accept new firmware? If it wasn't designed to get new firmware, and no such facility was built in, how would that work? Code signing keys can get an existing firmware updater to trust the incoming firmware. What if there is no such updater?

      As far as I know, Apple designed the Secure Enclave to be secure. It wouldn't be secure if the security could be reprogrammed, would it?

      --
      "When you have eliminated the unacceptable, whatever is left, however improbable, must be the truthiness" - Holmes
    53. Re:Not black and white by dave562 · · Score: 1

      There are so many coincidences. I mean the fact that NORAD was hosting an exercise that included hijacked airplanes over the eastern seaboard on the exact same day that 4 airplanes were hijacked over the eastern seaboard is just too coincidental to be coincidental. Or the fact that WTC 7, the building where the emergency command center was setup which had all of the records of all of the coordination taking place that day, just happened to collapse right into its own footprint, after being hit by some debris.

      The only people who do not want to believe that 9/11 was setup are those who do not want to see it.

      Ask yourself this. Why isn't there any footage of the plane hitting the Pentagon? One of the FIRST things that the Feds did after the Pentagon got hit was to go around and collect all of the surveillance camera footage that could have shown what happened. It was never released. It's been almost 20 years at this point. Why can't we see the footage?

    54. Re:Not black and white by wyHunter · · Score: 1

      A 1960s court case said that LE does not protect individuals - it maintains social order and cleans up after crimes. Period.

    55. Re:Not black and white by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Your article provides no solution, and it naively implies software systems are like physical systems and there are no bad actors in our society.

      The reason companies employ encryption is to protect their customers from bad actors, where bad actors are more likely to domestic. Any weakening of the security employed will eventually get known, and bad actors will exploit it.

      You advocate that backdoors should not be implemted, but fail to provide any solution that does not infer some weakening of security. Your article is more fluff than substance.

    56. Re:Not black and white by Demena · · Score: 1

      Finch

    57. Re: Not black and white by ahodgson · · Score: 1

      How do you not need foreign oil? You're still importing 7-8 million barrels per day.

  23. Evil: Yes by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1

    but geniuses? Thats a stretch.

    1. Re:Evil: Yes by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Well they do have those Genius Bars. Isn't anyone working at a Genius Bar, by definition, a Genius?

      They may not be a genius, but they are a Genius, if you see where I'm going with this...

      I wonder though. Could they be Very Stable Geniuses?

  24. How dare you lock your door! by Ayano · · Score: 1

    - FBI

    --
    I don't read AC
  25. Apple by ledow · · Score: 2

    Hate Apple products.
    Hate Apple business tactics.
    Hate Apple's complete lack of social responsibility.
    Hate Apple design.

    Their one redeeming feature: That they don't just make it easy for the FBI (or anyone else).

    Tell them off and call them names for anything else, I'll be right there cheering you on. But insulting them because they won't deliberately weaken security just in case their users happen to be a terrorist? Yeah, that I won't just jump on board with.

    1. Re:Apple by Opportunist · · Score: 1

      I can't help it, but I somehow think something's VERY wrong when siding with a corporation makes more sense than siding with the government that allegedly works for you...

      --
      We used to have a Bill of Rights. Now, with the rights gone, all we have left is the bill.
    2. Re:Apple by b0s0z0ku · · Score: 2

      Maybe you assume that both are corrupt and rotten, and neither works for you.

    3. Re:Apple by Opportunist · · Score: 1

      A corporation also isn't supposed to work for me. Unless I'm a shareholder. There is no pretending that a corporation has ANY kind of obligation to do ANYTHING for my benefit. Even the product they sell me is at best a necessary evil so they can turn a profit.

      An elected government is BY ITS VERY DEFINITION as a government elected by the people for the people supposed to work for me. If it isn't, it loses the very foundation of its claim to power.

      --
      We used to have a Bill of Rights. Now, with the rights gone, all we have left is the bill.
    4. Re:Apple by operagost · · Score: 1

      What you call a "necessary evil" is what we call "capitalism" and some people call "making a living."

      --

      Gamingmuseum.com: Give your 3D accelerator a rest.
    5. Re:Apple by Opportunist · · Score: 1

      Offering a good or service is the necessary evil on the way to your money. If I could make you (legally) give me your money without providing anything in return, I would do so.

      For reference, see religion.

      --
      We used to have a Bill of Rights. Now, with the rights gone, all we have left is the bill.
    6. Re:Apple by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      I can't help it, but I somehow think something's VERY wrong when siding with a corporation makes more sense than siding with the government that allegedly works for you...

      Government will start working for citizens when we offer higher bribes than corporations.

    7. Re:Apple by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      If I could make you (legally) give me your money without providing anything in return

      Say like government requiring someone to buy an insurance policy at $11,000 a year from you, with a $6,000 deductible before it STARTS paying out.
      I think that fits your, legally force you to give me money while providing nothing in return. Even better, if you happen to STILL lose money, the government will had you money to cover your losses (not sure how that was even possible).

      I would do so.

      Well, that explains a lot of DNC policies right there then, and why you support them.

    8. Re:Apple by flink · · Score: 1

      An elected government is BY ITS VERY DEFINITION as a government elected by the people for the people supposed to work for me. If it isn't, it loses the very foundation of its claim to power.

      Except that government exercises its power via people in the form of elected and appointed officials. People are fallible, and for the most part those officials have ceased to work for the people who elected them and now serve the corporations who got them elected.

    9. Re:Apple by Opportunist · · Score: 1

      Now guess what's wrong...

      --
      We used to have a Bill of Rights. Now, with the rights gone, all we have left is the bill.
    10. Re:Apple by Opportunist · · Score: 1

      You are aware that tax money is spent on government projects and not eaten by the president, yes?

      --
      We used to have a Bill of Rights. Now, with the rights gone, all we have left is the bill.
    11. Re:Apple by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      I am aware that insurance companies paid the DNC, and Obama, to pass a law forcing citizens to give them money.
      I am also now aware that you support such a scheme, one that takes money away from the middle class to give to the rich.

      I also don't expect liberals to have morals or ethics, and you just helped cement that belief.

    12. Re:Apple by david_thornley · · Score: 1

      I'm not going to argue with you there. However, Apple, to a very small extent, works for me, in that they've profited off my purchases. I'm a customer.

      The problem with government is that it's imperfect, and has a tremendous amount of power. This attracts people who want to misuse power, and there's no good way to keep them out. Therefore, you can't trust government as much as it seems we should. Government is made of people, and people are seriously imperfect. (If people were perfect, what would we need a government for?)

      --
      "When you have eliminated the unacceptable, whatever is left, however improbable, must be the truthiness" - Holmes
    13. Re:Apple by david_thornley · · Score: 1

      I think you're being overoptimistic there. There will always be people who want to abuse power, and government offers them scope.

      --
      "When you have eliminated the unacceptable, whatever is left, however improbable, must be the truthiness" - Holmes
    14. Re:Apple by Demena · · Score: 1

      Ah! You are beginning to understand the founders and many other countries experiences with government. Never, ever trust a government. Even if it is the one you voted for and want. Never, ever trust it. People who desire power have ever growing appetites that can never be satisfied. They are not "people like us". Remember you have "a republic, if you can keep it".

    15. Re:Apple by david_thornley · · Score: 1

      Beginning to understand? I've been saying things like that for a long time. I don't trust governments. I don't trust corporations. I like having tensions between them.

      --
      "When you have eliminated the unacceptable, whatever is left, however improbable, must be the truthiness" - Holmes
    16. Re:Apple by Demena · · Score: 1

      Yes, you still demonstrate trust in that statement.

  26. Not Android eh? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0


    You never read about this type of complaint regarding any Android device, manufacturer, or Google itself. Yet Android is by far the most widely uses mobile OS.
    br.Makes one think.

    1. Re:Not Android eh? by Opportunist · · Score: 2

      Rooting Android devices to audit them is fairly trivial compared to Apple's stuff. And since 99% of the idiots are unable to secure their own devices, it's also fairly trivial to break in and get the information you want.

      --
      We used to have a Bill of Rights. Now, with the rights gone, all we have left is the bill.
    2. Re:Not Android eh? by Maritz · · Score: 1

      Makes you think the world is against Apple doesn't it? I bet it does. Tough old life.

      --
      I do not want your cheap brainburning drugs. They are useless for work. And I am a working man today.
  27. "Evil" by PoopJuggler · · Score: 0

    You mean like when you murdered all those women and children at Waco, TX?

  28. Translation by sjbe · · Score: 3

    We at the FBI are a bunch of lazy twats who regard the constitution as a piece of toilet paper if it makes our job harder. We also know perfectly well that any backdoor in encrypted software makes the encryption worthless but pretend otherwise in public because we only care about ourselves.

    Basically either this guy is evil or an idiot and I'm pretty sure someone at the FBI understands how encryption works so I'm favoring evil. Either way it isn't a good situation for our civil right to have the cops demanding a master key to everyone's (figurative) house.

    1. Re:Translation by fafalone · · Score: 2

      My impression is that they're arrogant enough to believe they can keep the keys secret and/or the collateral damage of a breach is less important than whatever they feel like doing.

    2. Re:Translation by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Seems far more likely that they'll hush up any abuse of this (if they ever get it, and with Trump as president they may well get it!).

  29. I agree by Opportunist · · Score: 1

    It's insanely difficult to root and audit the damn things. About time the FBI is working for us and demanding that we get control over the hardware we buy.

    (Sarcasm is in the eye of the beholder...)

    --
    We used to have a Bill of Rights. Now, with the rights gone, all we have left is the bill.
  30. Two months still sucks by RobinH · · Score: 2

    A product you can crack in two months with available technology still has essentially broken security.

    --
    "I have never let my schooling interfere with my education." - Mark Twain
    1. Re:Two months still sucks by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      That is probably with the standard 4 digit PIN. It is probably unbreakable with a good password.

  31. Law enforcement by jbmartin6 · · Score: 4, Insightful

    Of course it is to thwart law enforcement. The FBI likes to pretend that it is trustworthy, history says otherwise. And of course, the US government is not the only "law" enforcement involved. Meanwhile we have yet to see a case they could not prosecute because of data on the iPhone, on the contrary we've only seen them trying to crack iPhones as a side note to an already established case just in case there is something relevant on there.

    --
    This posting is provided 'AS IS' without warranty of any kind, implied or otherwise.
    1. Re:Law enforcement by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      So you are saying you haven't seen proof that what is on the phone would have made a difference, even though they haven't cracked the phones in question so such proof is by definition not available? Circular logic.

    2. Re:Law enforcement by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Meanwhile we have yet to see a case they could not prosecute because of data on the iPhone, on the contrary we've only seen them trying to crack iPhones as a side note to an already established case just in case there is something relevant on there.

      I suppose if you haven't seen it, then it must not have happened. Or maybe that's just something they would rather not have known if at all possible.

  32. FBI = True Criminals by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    The FBI are the true criminals. If they weren't constantly infringing on constitutional RIGHTS, we wouldn't need such encryption.

    Personally, I encrypt the crap out of everything. in fact I have a couple 2 TB files that are just random garbage that I encrypted so if the government ever gets them without a warrant, it will cost them lots of time and effort to end up with NOTHING.

  33. Re:Did you know... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Oh a little Trumpflake. Hey Trumpflake. The FBI was great while it was after Killary wasn't it? Not so great when it's investigating your treacherous hero, though. Funny how that works.

  34. it is black and white by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    I read the link. Your definition of "terrorist" is a get out of nuance card. Suppose there are those that consider the US military an occupying force - yes I know you're always the good guys. always. - and their definition of "terrorist" is different than yours. And they have seized your phone. With your home address and pictures of your kids. Does "terrorist" include disputing an elected politicians definition of freedom of assembly?

    "Those who would give up essential Liberty, to purchase a little temporary Safety, deserve neither Liberty nor Safety." and you knew that quote was coming.

  35. Didn't have to bribe anyone to break every DRM by raymorris · · Score: 1

    Companies have spent hundreds of millions of dollars trying to encryption this and that, from various forms of DRM to game console and locked bootloaders. It ALWAYS gets broken, sometimes shortly *before* the product is released. No need to bribe anyone;security is just hard because breaking things is easier than making things. It's a fact that if people can make it, people can break it.

    1. Re: Didn't have to bribe anyone to break every DRM by c6gunner · · Score: 4, Informative

      You're confusing different things. DRM and copy protection are relatively easily cracked because the keys used for decryption have to be available to the software/device in order for it to function; they're just obfuscated in various ways that make them difficult to obtain. On the other hand, when you encrypt a device yourself the encryption key/password does not need to be stored anywhere other than in your head.

      Finding a key which is recorded but obfuscated is not at all similar to finding a key which only exists in the brain of an individual. Especially if you're not allowed to use torture, or if the person in question is already dead.

    2. Re:Didn't have to bribe anyone to break every DRM by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1

      DRM is a completely different kettle of fish, because the attacker has both the ciphertext and the key and is somehow supposed to not be able to do anything unauthorized with the plaintext.

    3. Re:Didn't have to bribe anyone to break every DRM by MachineShedFred · · Score: 1

      DRM and encryption are two different very things that only on the surface appear to be similar.

      Encryption is "here is a lock. It's made of a material that cannot be physically compromised, and the lock mechanism has billions of variable length pins at hundreds of different angles along the keyway, making it impossible to pick. I'm keeping the key and only giving it to people I want to. Good luck."

      DRM is "here is a lock, and a key. We've also put a bit of gum over the keyhole on the lock. Don't take that off unless we say so, and absolutely don't put the key in there."

      --
      Slashdot still doesnâ(TM)t support Unicode after it was added to the HTML standard in 1997.
    4. Re: Didn't have to bribe anyone to break every DRM by Waffle+Iron · · Score: 5, Insightful

      Actually, for most phones the encryption keys *are* kept in the phone and obfuscated; they're kept in tamper-resistant hardware storage (which must be rather effective, otherwise the spies wouldn't be complaining).

      The info kept in the user's head is just a short PIN that could be cracked in seconds if they were actually used as the key. The security lies in the phone firmware/hardware only allowing a small number of PIN guesses before it wipes out the real keys.

    5. Re: Didn't have to bribe anyone to break every DRM by HiThere · · Score: 1

      But why not "Correct horse Battery staple"?

      Pass phrases are quite reasonable for encryption, if not for something that you need to type frequently. And they allow for a lot more entropy to be remembered than does a few numbers (unless you're a quite unusual person).

      --

      I think we've pushed this "anyone can grow up to be president" thing too far.
    6. Re: Didn't have to bribe anyone to break every DRM by Waffle+Iron · · Score: 1

      Are you seriously thinking of typing that phrase every time you want to check an incoming text message?

      I also think those four common words don't have entropy exceeding maybe 30,000^4, or about 60 bits. That could likely be brute forced by anyone equipped with a Bitcoin mining rig.

    7. Re: Didn't have to bribe anyone to break every DRM by tattood · · Score: 1

      I also think those four common words don't have entropy exceeding maybe 30,000^4, or about 60 bits.

      44 bits actually..

      --
      WTB [sig], PST!!!
    8. Re: Didn't have to bribe anyone to break every DRM by HiThere · · Score: 1

      Depends on how you measure it. Actually that particular set of four common words has considerably less entropy, because it's been used as an example so often that I didn't need to explain why I used them as an example, whereas "solemn pTarmagines nest strangely" has a lot more. Partially because "pTarmagines" is spelled incorrectly and partially because of the unusual capitalization. And nobody said you need to limit it to four words.

      OTOH, as someone indicated, you don't want to need to type that much every time you log in, much less every time you receive a message. But it should require some modicum of effort to decrypt something that you want hidden, and it should be something easily memorized, so you don't need to write it down (unless the use case is against electronic interception, in which case writing it down isn't a problem...you just don't want to store it on your computer).

      --

      I think we've pushed this "anyone can grow up to be president" thing too far.
    9. Re: Didn't have to bribe anyone to break every DRM by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Because this would be much easier to brute force.

      Cracking 28 random characters using the same char set (AZaz space = 53): 53^28 =~ 2e48 combinations.
      Cracking 28 characters consisting of 4 words out of a 2000 most frequently used words dictionary: 2000^4 = 1.6e13 . Starting capitals adds another x16.

      The latter could be cracked in a day or less, provided the decryption can be checked fast enough. In case the decryption cannot be done offline and has a fixed delay per try, you might be safe.

    10. Re: Didn't have to bribe anyone to break every DRM by AutodidactLabrat · · Score: 1

      Of course torture won't work, because giving away the key guarantees years or decades of imprisonment and torture.

  36. Evil geniuses ? by Hall · · Score: 2

    Don't let the FBI know that they have a pool at their new building with "freakin' sharks with lasers" too !

  37. Nerd resentment by FuzzyDaddy2 · · Score: 2

    There is a very distinct whiff of nerd resentment here. Don't you just imagine this guy as some popular "sports" kid from high school? It's the same anti-intellectual strain that goes into science denial. Whether or not this particular person feels that way, it's definitely the sentiment he is trying to tap.

    1. Re:Nerd resentment by PetiePooo · · Score: 2

      There is a very distinct whiff of nerd resentment here.

      I disagree. The FBI and other TLAs (Three Letter Agencies) have been caught too many times with their hands in the proverbial cookie jar. And when caught doing unlawful things, their response has been to make their actions lawful, and with secret laws at that, rather than stop breaking the law. Consumers are responding by demanding their providers put a lock on the cookie jar. When it's no longer a government by the people and for the people, people tend to dismiss government concerns.

      It's not Apple being jerks; it's Apple doing what their customers want. FBI rants have essentially become advertisements for Apple's products. Thanks for the free PR, Flatley!

    2. Re:Nerd resentment by networkBoy · · Score: 1

      I am a massive Android fanboi, and can't particularly stand Apple's UI or walled garden...
      That said, if I needed a phone for questionable stuff an apple burner looks to be the ideal choice all things considered.

      --
      whois gawk date unzip strip find touch finger mount join nice man top fsck grep eject more yes exit umount sleep dump
    3. Re:Nerd resentment by TheFakeTimCook · · Score: 1

      I am a massive Android fanboi, and can't particularly stand Apple's UI or walled garden...
      That said, if I needed a phone for questionable stuff an apple burner looks to be the ideal choice all things considered.

      Howabout if you just wanted a phone that you didn't want every frickin' nefarious APP digging into, let ALONE the Gummint?!?

    4. Re:Nerd resentment by torkus · · Score: 1

      You'd do better off with Samsung using their KNOX container. Just sayin...

      --
      You can get rich if you own a politician, but you have to be rich to buy one in the first place.
    5. Re: Nerd resentment by Reverend+Green · · Score: 1

      Ahah - the theatrical performance was a success!

    6. Re:Nerd resentment by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Just don't get an iPhone X. Aside from $1000+ for a burner phone, FaceID is trivial to crack, so it's not secure at all.

  38. F*cking Bunch of Idiots by Mr.+Goodprobe · · Score: 1

    Better Evil Genius than just Evil.

  39. LOL how delicious! by GameboyRMH · · Score: 2

    Mmm yes, cry more sweet tears for me, privacy invaders! Weep at the reality of encryption! Muahahaha!

    --
    "When information is power, privacy is freedom" - Jah-Wren Ryel
  40. liars, stop spying on citizens by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Its the very spying by the US Government that is driving encryption. The government needs to stop thinking that they can spy on everyone at all times, it is not okay to spy on everyone.

    Seriously, fuck this guy. He can choke to death on my encryption.

  41. Math? by DontBeAMoran · · Score: 1

    Either I need to take my morning coffee or something doesn't add up...

    A report on the Motherboard website said Flatley explained that this change meant that the speed at which one could brute-force passwords went from 45 attempts a second to one every 18 seconds. "Your crack time just went from two days to two months".

    Okay, so from 45 attempts per second to 1 attempt per 18 seconds.
    That means that previously there was 810 attempts per 18 seconds, now there is only 1 attempt.

    If the crack time used to be 2 days, shouldn't it have gone up to 1620 days, not 2 months?

    --
    #DeleteFacebook
    1. Re:Math? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      lol, yes but they will redefine maths now just to prove they are right. Anyway according to the comment this is NIST standard apple have adopted.

    2. Re:Math? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Does anyone doubt he was pulling numbers out of his 4th point of contact?

    3. Re:Math? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Maybe there is overhead in the process, like cracking the phone open and pulling out chips or something, so of the two days only 2 hours is the actual brute-force part, and he was talking about the time from start to finish.

    4. Re:Math? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Nothing wrong with your math.

      As for the FBI, with that kind of math skill, no wonder they can't crack encryption.

    5. Re:Math? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      I thnk it's already established that he's not so good at math...

    6. Re:Math? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      If that is an example of their math skills, I think we now know why they can't break Apple encryption.

  42. Re:FBI, is your security hard to crack? Why? by Jaime2 · · Score: 1

    Read his comments with a huge grain of salt. Either he is so ignorant of crypto that he thinks that raising the number of iterations is genius rather than normal practice, or he is intentionally making outlandish statements that are calculated to sway public opinion. It seems obvious that it's the latter, and it will probably work.

  43. Aspirations by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    I was born a jerk. I aspire to be an evil genius. BTW I missed that whole part in the US Constitution that said I should make government's job easier.

  44. Smokescreen by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    This is a smokescreen. Apple has government-requested backdoors built into all their services and devices. By publicly complaining that Apple products are "very hard to crack", the FBI is basically paying Apple back for its cooperation while also trying to encourage people who might have something to hide to buy Apple (which they know they can "crack" - or rather, access, because there's no actual cracking involved - easily.

  45. Good by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    It should be damn near impossible. How about an AI component where the iPhone would perceive someone was trying to guess the password and then lock it down and call Apple so the person would have to follow a specific set of steps involving fingerprint or face, several email codes, and an iCloud 2-factor code or five requiring each one to be validated via a secondary email. Then it would give you permission to keep guessing, but only 5 more guesses.

  46. Thwarting law enforcement? by QuietLagoon · · Score: 1

    ... he was quoted as saying. "At what point is it just trying to one up things and at what point is it to thwart law enforcement? ...

    Why does he presume that people want security in their phones just to thwart law enforcement? I want security in my phone to keep everyone out. If law enforcement can get in, so can the bad guys.

    1. Re:Thwarting law enforcement? by eaglesrule · · Score: 1

      Given that corrupt law enforcement is likely to be a greater threat to my life, liberty and property than regular criminals, it is especially important to keep them out. The principle of "don't talk to the police" most certainly applies.

    2. Re:Thwarting law enforcement? by david_thornley · · Score: 1

      That's why I run Kaspersky. I figure the Russian government has no interest in me, for good or for ill, but my own government might.

      --
      "When you have eliminated the unacceptable, whatever is left, however improbable, must be the truthiness" - Holmes
  47. Backs of giants by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Funny, "evil geniuses"?!

    I am pretty sure that NIST SO 800-132 section 5.2 regsrding the recommended iteration count for password derivation functions had something to do with the change.

    Well that coupled with the quantum computing landscape shaping the factoring times being reduced might have been a better explanation than "the big jerks".

    1. Re: Backs of giants by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Damn typos:

      NIST SP 800-132 section 5.2

  48. what if the FBI does have a crack? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Consider, for a moment, that the FBI does have a crack (possibly supplied by Apple Inc.), in the same manner that there was a crack for Enigma in WWII. It would be of utmost importance that said crack were to be kept secret. All actions and communications should both be plausibly consistent with not having the crack and regularly reinforce that notion.

    So, who's to say all this is or isn't misinformation? At the end of the day, we can't lose sight of the fact that statements and claims are just that, not reality.

  49. FBI should thank Apple by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    ... because Apple is protecting users against criminals, something that the FBI should be doing!

  50. Thats ok. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    We call the FBI cunts and cocksuckers all the time.

  51. I remember the book well... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    "Evil Geniuses in a Nutshell" by J. D. "Illiad" Frazer was probably the best O'Reilly book ever put out back in the day.

  52. Re:FBI, is your security hard to crack? Why? by geekmux · · Score: 1

    Read his comments with a huge grain of salt. Either he is so ignorant of crypto that he thinks that raising the number of iterations is genius rather than normal practice, or he is intentionally making outlandish statements that are calculated to sway public opinion. It seems obvious that it's the latter, and it will probably work.

    Speaking of public opinion, if I were in Tim Cooks position, I would hold a YouTube live stream and call this FBI agent out personally.

    Let the FBI stand up there and rant and rave about how unbreakable Apple security is. Let the FBI bitch and moan about hacking attempts on Apple hardware being very difficult.

    Then Tim will stand up and ask one simple question; "Why is it hard for hackers to break into your encryption?"

    The FBI will provide an obvious answer, to which Tim will reply in front of the world watching, "Thank you for confirming why the fuck Apple takes security seriously." *drops mic*

  53. The oppression of evil genius by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    As a member of the evil genius community, I strongly denounce the use of this minority-oppressing slur by a representative of the US government.

    Hey, where can I sue?

  54. Good by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Not much that I can say about that.

  55. Abuse your power and lose it! by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    The FBI has been caught with their hands in the cookie jar entirely too many times to be crying about "we need back doors". Fire up your super computer and use the exploits given to you by the NSA.

  56. Difficult, not impossible by houghi · · Score: 1

    What I read is "Your crack time just went from two days to two months"
    To me that means it is still possible and not as secure as people tend to say it is.
    If you are a person who want to keep things secret for whatever reason, two months is not a long time. 2 years would be a nice start. 200 woo;d be what I want for now

    --
    Don't fight for your country, if your country does not fight for you.
    1. Re:Difficult, not impossible by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      FBI technicians, not experts.
      Bud, you don't have training. Hash tables have collisions, so that biggish number is smaller . and a sideband timing response will get you in faster. And you dont know about eeprom overrides, which is why some parts of the military wont use them. If there was a charge pump pin to pull up, you don't know.

      Yep a dumb ass hooking up test probes to a pre-canned contraption with click and point.
      You need to hire smarter people with real experience. Or you could just pay Apple some cash. If you don't trust Apple, then you don't understand they have 1/2 of congress on tap, if they wanted to.

      Apple just looks difficult to ordinary persons. They have not made it hard yet, but have made logic probe technicians obsolete. As Apple are not using NSA suite A, and still using flawed suite B - how much slack do you want?

      I think Apple are saying pay commercial rates just like everyone else, Third party repair sites will not be tolerated.

    2. Re:Difficult, not impossible by david_thornley · · Score: 1

      If we're talking about iPhones, go into settings - passcodes or whatever - and turn on the wipe after ten tries. Even if you have only a four-digit passcode (the default), if you make it impossible to guess easily there's about a 0.1% chance they can crack it at all.

      --
      "When you have eliminated the unacceptable, whatever is left, however improbable, must be the truthiness" - Holmes
    3. Re:Difficult, not impossible by Demena · · Score: 1

      It works out at 16 years and eight months not two months as he suggested. Seems he cannot do arithmetic even when it would benefit his argument. Not that either are really true any way. They might just get lucky and hit it with the first entry.

      But they are not going to run a sequential test anyway, there will be realms of studies done on how to optimise such searches (search for password) so they are most likely to succeed before half the entries have been tested.

  57. Re:FBI, is your security hard to crack? Why? by Fnord666 · · Score: 1

    I cannot believe we actually hire allegedly educated individuals to work in the FBI who can't fucking grasp the concept that Apple didn't make good security because of the FBI. Apple made good security because of the actual evil in the world, and to protect their customers

    Please note that those two groups are in no way mutually exclusive.

    --
    'The tyrant will always find pretext for his tyranny.' - Aesop's Fables
  58. It Takes One by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    ... To know one.

  59. Stupid or disingenous? by sjbe · · Score: 4, Insightful

    If we could somehow create magical impenetrable *physical* fortresses that cannot be opened or accessed by the duly-empowered law enforcement and judicial powers of a democratic society, would we say that's just the way it is?

    We would have to. Total strawman you have there but I'll roll with it. To make it tangible the laws of mathematics are not bendable for the convenience of some and not others. Once encryption is broken by one party, it is a trivial exercise to break it for an arbitrary number of other parties or to simply distribute the data being protected. Once you have one key it's cheap and easy to make copies of the key and much more expensive to replace the locks. And once the data is taken there is no point since that would be like locking the door after the thief has already run off with your stuff.

    There is no one "right" answer to a question like this save the ones we collectively and imperfectly come to as a society.

    Actually there is a right answer here and air quotes are not needed. Your options are either to use encryption properly to keep data secure or to not use it at all and live with the consequences. There literally is no middle ground. Weak encryption or backdoored encryption = no encryption.

    Apple believes it is protecting freedom. It's wrong. Here's why:

    That article is a complete load of nonsense. The author is either an idiot or has an agenda. His arguments are flawed to their core. The argument is basically that bad guys are lazy and won't be bothered to take advantage of government mandated back doors. That argument is so stupid I barely know were to begin.

  60. You are not Google's customer by ghoul · · Score: 4, Interesting

    Google's customer are the companies who pay money to Google for ads. You do not pay any money to Google so how can you be their customer? You and your profile is Google's product which Google sells to advertizers. They take care to anonymize the data not because you will stop paying money to them (how can you ? you dont pay anything today) but because if profiles end up in their advertizers hands the advertizers can market directly and dont need to go through Google.
    Ditto Facebook.
    Apple actually gets money from you and me so it cares what we think .

    --
    **Life is too short to be serious**
    1. Re:You are not Google's customer by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Google do actually sell android devices directly, as well as handling sales and payments for digital goods sold through the Play Store. So, yes, you can be their customer if you buy something from or through them.

    2. Re:You are not Google's customer by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Android users are Google customers too.

  61. Armed society makes for a polite society by ghoul · · Score: 1

    We should have a 2nd Amendment for Nukes where all countries have nukes. May just make USA more polite and stop poking into others' backyards.

    --
    **Life is too short to be serious**
    1. Re:Armed society makes for a polite society by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      The USA isn't a very polite society and yet it is one of the most heavily armed ones in the world.

      And the USA is not any more polite to North Korea since they developed their nukes.

      How about shunning arseholes instead of rewarding them, then you might get a more polite society.

      If you think violence, or threats thereof is the answer, you are probably asking the wrong question. (There may be circumstances where this doesn't hold, but those should be the exception not the rule.)

  62. No, They're bitter by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    They're bitter that Apple rolled over for the Chinese government, but is deliberately advertising their phones as a tool for criminals.

    1. Re:No, They're bitter by MachineShedFred · · Score: 1

      Please now link to any Apple advertisement where they are deliberately targeting criminals. Or shut the fuck up and stop making shit up.

      --
      Slashdot still doesnâ(TM)t support Unicode after it was added to the HTML standard in 1997.
  63. Re:Failure to understand the goal of the encryptio by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    You say that, but Apple has caved to the Chinese government.

  64. Totes by MoralCharacter · · Score: 1

    So what the FBI is saying is that it's fine for everyone to protect their data with a digital lock. But they really want to be given a master key that they totes mcgotes pinky promise they won't abuse or accidentally lose and most definitely not make copies of for their friends with benefits. It's different this time, they'll even stick a needle in their eye if they lie.

  65. Re:FBI, is your security hard to crack? Why? by TheFakeTimCook · · Score: 1

    Read his comments with a huge grain of salt. Either he is so ignorant of crypto that he thinks that raising the number of iterations is genius rather than normal practice, or he is intentionally making outlandish statements that are calculated to sway public opinion. It seems obvious that it's the latter, and it will probably work.

    Speaking of public opinion, if I were in Tim Cooks position, I would hold a YouTube live stream and call this FBI agent out personally.

    Let the FBI stand up there and rant and rave about how unbreakable Apple security is. Let the FBI bitch and moan about hacking attempts on Apple hardware being very difficult.

    Then Tim will stand up and ask one simple question; "Why is it hard for hackers to break into your encryption?"

    The FBI will provide an obvious answer, to which Tim will reply in front of the world watching, "Thank you for confirming why the fuck Apple takes security seriously." *drops mic*

    Oh, yeah!

    Put it up on the Apple Events channel TODAY!!!!

  66. Methinks thou dost protest too much by erapert · · Score: 0

    It's this.
    The FBI already did crack an iPhone. They bought the crack from some Israeli firm if I remember right.

    Also, Apple is a US company... a very rich one. It would be a shame if the Feds discovered some large amount of back taxes were due... Or they might not even have to resort to the rubber hose method: the Feds could trivially insert some NSA guys into the engineering teams at Apple and get all the back doors they could ever want for free.

    Oh, a nice little bonus: with all this loud and colorful protestation of how secure Apple is their revenue is also bound to increase... and thus also the taxes gleaned from Apple. It's like Apple is paying to be abused by the Feds-- when was the last time a whore paid you for sex?

    1. Re: Methinks thou dost protest too much by Jesus+H+Rolle · · Score: 1

      The FBI already did crack an iPhone. They bought the crack from some Israeli firm if I remember right.

      The phone cracked was a 5c, which was new in 2013. Supposedly the 5s (also 2013) and up are uncrackable. No idea if it's relevant, but the 5c was the last 32 bit iPhone.

    2. Re: Methinks thou dost protest too much by Jesus+H+Rolle · · Score: 1

      The FBI is just crooked national law enforcement. The NSA has a bigger budget and is in the business of breaking encryption. Likely it can crack an iPhone, but the FBI probably can't.

  67. Re:I don't know but ask APK about half measures by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    But but but updating a HOSTS file with a script means he's made an ENGINE!

    For HOSTS files! Because reinventing DNS in a completely halfassed way is more secure! It's obvious because he says so, ad nauseam!

  68. Re:Failure to understand the goal of the encryptio by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Criminals, terrorists, and spies need to break into the phones of criminals, terrorists, and spies to gather evidence in criminal investigations? Wow, that is mind-blowing!

  69. Vote by Stud+McPeckChest · · Score: 1

    This appears to be the actual vote so you can see how people voted.

    Gripe: I wish news articles would include this link or something similar that makes finding this information easier.

    1. Re:Vote by Stud+McPeckChest · · Score: 1

      Damn it, I am an idiot that posted in the wrong thread. Sorry for the noise. And this noise.

  70. Re:I don't know but ask APK about half measures by retchdog · · Score: 1

    HOSTS FILE is educated stupid! YOU are EDUCATED EVIL. Always 4-Corner QUAD-simultaneous HOSTS CUBE! No 1-Day God!

    --
    "They were pure niggers." – Noam Chomsky
  71. Re:FBI, is your security hard to crack? Why? by anegg · · Score: 1

    I think that prior to some relatively recent consumer-level products, most of the information security technology available to non-government consumers was of the easily breakable variety. For example, I bought a Motorola cordless phone that purported to be "secure" so that my neighbors couldn't listen to my phone calls - then I listened to it on my scanner, and found that it mere inverted the audio signal, which could either be easily inverted back, or (with some practice) you could actually learn to listen and decode yourself. Until the advent of Windows XP and MacOS X, most consumer computers had either no real username/password protection, or easily breakable username/password protection. Even after consumer computers had username/password protection, physical access to the console trumped all protections. Alternatively, one could just remove the hard drive and analyze it in a different computer.

    The government had access to some technology that produced better results... STU III telephones prevented eavesdropping or line-tapping from yielding much intelligence. Locking computers up in secure facilities with no external access and TEMPEST emissions protections kept information from disclosure. But these things are all very expensive and something that only governments can afford.

    In the 2000s and 2010s this changed... full hardwire encryption is available on consumer devices. Mobile phones have secure enclaves and tamper-proof hardware that forms the foundation for some decent lockdown capabilities (that can be diminished for usability purposes). For those who desire it, an end-to end encrypted voice communication system can be had for not too much money.

    In the past, I think law enforcement took about as much notice of consumer-level security as a good burglar does of the average lock on a front door (even if its a deadbolt) - i.e., none. It could all be easily defeated/circumvented. Now consumer-level security is starting to provide a real challenge to law enforcement, and they are taking notice. Having failed an early attempt to seize the high ground (the Clipper Chip https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Clipper_chip), and now that usability has moved passed the PGP stage, the law enforcement community is seeing a future reality that they don't like much.

  72. Experts! by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    'Evil Geniuses'

    Crimmany! Coming from the FBI that is a huge complement! They know what they're talking about!

  73. Obligatory by Megane · · Score: 1

    Learn not to speak Esperanto

    tl;dr: Esperanto is badly designed, with a lot of irregularity and Eastern European-isms built into it, especially the choice of phonemes.

    --
    #naabhaprzrag, #sverubfr-000, #agi-fcbafberq, negvpyr[pynff*=' negvpyr-ary-'] { qvfcynl: abar !vzcbegnag; }
    1. Re:Obligatory by Megane · · Score: 2

      Protip: when you have more than one tab open to Slashdot, be sure you have the right one before posting.

      --
      #naabhaprzrag, #sverubfr-000, #agi-fcbafberq, negvpyr[pynff*=' negvpyr-ary-'] { qvfcynl: abar !vzcbegnag; }
  74. HERE IS WHY. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    CHINESE CODE. Let them in and in and in and in... until you find

    China got the backdoors eh, and why would anybody buy a walled garden device anyway?
    Xray the device to get specs? gtfo. Gay CEO? bye.

    Also, forget what you heard it was Tim Cook that leaked Jennifer Lawrence's nudes.
    Don't forget to read about living conditions of the chinese workers who actually assemble the phones.
    Do not forget because I was the one who posted it... that Apple shut down unexpectedly for 7 hours when I published the IP addresses of ever server Snow Leopard made connections to when you boot it in a virtual machine. I used wireshark (ethereal) for the IP addresses then I would firewall them on host and reboot. Then record next round of servers. Until when they were all blocked... you couldn't even log in. Your p.o.s. OS was basically a thin client. Weak shit.

    Fuck apple. Use FreeBSD with KDE it's awesome as fuck.

    So is Tumbleweed TBH.

    rekt. fuck the lies.

    1. Re:HERE IS WHY. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Chinese font MADE IN CHINA didn't make it after "until you find"

      The shit is garbage. Use Android just expect Eric Schmidt's brainstorms to be all spy shit. Disable it all and use Orbot with Orfox. Custom ROM's etc too.

  75. Now this is a strange policy? by Megol · · Score: 1

    That of a random member of a huge organization always speak for and represent the organization as a whole?

  76. what point is it to thwart law enforcement? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Oh dear! I have to ask you. How much time you got? The list of reasons for respecting law enforcement is much shorter. I mean, here, take a look:

  77. Apple Jerks by fustakrakich · · Score: 1

    Are they still orange?

    --
    “He’s not deformed, he’s just drunk!”
  78. Re:FBI, is your security hard to crack? Why? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    To be fair if they think increasing the time it takes to validate the password to make brute force more costly qualifies as "evil genius" territory their own security is probably riddled with the likes of "nobody will ever guess my password is 'password'" level thinking and isn't terribly hard to crack.

  79. Looks like iphones are not that hard to crack by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0
  80. Really? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Do you think the great wall of china would allow a phone that it cant crack into their market? This feels more like herding and theater...

  81. Re: Didn't have to bribe anyone to break every DR by c6gunner · · Score: 1

    Actually, for most phones the encryption keys *are* kept in the phone and obfuscated; they're kept in tamper-resistant hardware storage (which must be rather effective, otherwise the spies wouldn't be complaining).

    IIRC, the keys are encrypted with the users PIN or password, and the (good) hardware is designed in a way which doesn't let you either dump the keys for offline bruteforcing or guess the PIN on the device itself. So you still need the PIN to actually access the keys.

    You're right in that PIN based security is really a form of obfuscation though, which is why earlier iPhone models could be cracked relatively easily - they had flaws which allowed you to brute-force the PIN. On the other hand my android phone is encrypted with a 16+ character password, and the PIN only unlocks the screen, so if the device is turned off when you get your hands on it you're not brute-forcing it. If it's turned on you might conceivably be able to bypass the lock screen, but I think even that is pretty difficult on newer versions of android.

  82. "At what point..." by dave562 · · Score: 1

    To quote the article

    "At what point is it just trying to one up things and at /what point is it to thwart law enforcement?/"

    This is super ironic given that Congress just passed an extension of the law that allows the NSA to collect everyone's email and online communications WITHOUT A WARRANT.

    I would ask Mr. FBI, "At what point are you guys going to admit that you don't give two shits about the 4th amendment, and you operate like you're above the law?"

    Once the Feds come clean on being assholes and building a surveillance state that has 0.2% to do with fighting terrorism and 98.8% to do with averting civil unrest and regime change here at home, then they can start complaining about how evil tech companies are for allowing people to protect their communications from unwarranted search and seizure.

  83. Re:FBI, is your security hard to crack? Why? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    straight into a black suv, the closest airport and then Gitmo

  84. I'm So Confused` by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    The FBI say they want security for me and my family. Encryption on my computing devices provides security for me and my family.

    Therefore the FBI wants to make me more safe by making me less safe? Is this like that whole, "we had to destroy the village to save the village" thing?

    Do the FBI understand that the village paradox did not end well? Or do they not care because they don't live in that village? Perhaps they think that chanting "9/11! Never Again! Terr'ists Bad!" is a magic incantation that makes wise leadership unnecessary? Do they yearn for the simplicity that McCarthy and J. Edgar Hoover brought?

  85. Re: Didn't have to bribe anyone to break every DR by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Tamper resistant hardware storage? Don't kid yourself. There are always ways to get at data stored. It's just a matter of time, effort, and expense. Bump the chip with undervoltage/overvoltage, overclocking/underclocking at just the right time and get whatever software protecting the data to become bypassed or confused into giving you access. If that fails, decapitate the chip package and look directly at the silicon under an electron microscope.

  86. vitor is a pedophile from mastre informatica by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    apple usestheir tech to provide pedo brothels in Brazil. just open edonkey and look for pthc lucy and watch steve jobs raping a child

  87. Can someone please just hack the FBI already? by blibbo · · Score: 1

    ... so we can have reasonable conversations about cryptography and secrecy?

    There, I said it. I'm probably on a list now. However, doing so would not likely to be by brute force. They like to play dumb but I'm guessing the people at the top that set the FBIs cryptography standards are a bit smarter than the FBI folk make themselves sound when they ham it up about Apple in the media.

  88. Re: Didn't have to bribe anyone to break every DR by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    "Breathe. Sunflower. Rainbow. Three to the right, four to the left. 450."

  89. Re:Failure to understand the goal of the encryptio by Demena · · Score: 1

    Has it? Read again with eyes and mind open

  90. Re: Didn't have to bribe anyone to break every DR by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Oh don't fall for the theater.

    Not only can theater be used to push legislation, it can also be used as counterintelligence (simultaneously even).

    It's quite possible the FBI is having such difficulty but it can also be a show to make people feel hidden. I would be surprised if the NSA has such difficulties.

  91. Good to see... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    ... the FBI being professional and maintaining their dignity.

  92. song & dance by Reverend+Green · · Score: 1

    This is pure theatre. Your iPhone (or Android) is p0wned before it leaves the factory. It's DUH LAW.

  93. Re:Failure to understand the goal of the encryptio by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    You type like Chineses.

  94. Apple was made fun of by NSA, CIA, etc by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    In 2013, the Edward Snowden leaks proved that security of Apple products was laughable by NSA and CIA, they had ability to break into these devices on demand. They had to do something to make the products safer.

  95. Re: Didn't have to bribe anyone to break every DR by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    44 bits, and acceptable as a remote access password by FAR.

    For a passphrase that maps to crypto, you need something much longer- and no, you are correct, you would not want to type it everytime you want to check texts.

  96. Re: Didn't have to bribe anyone to break every DR by Evtim · · Score: 1

    How about this phrase:

    Milarodinotisizemenrajtvojtahubostnqmakraj

    The most important password in my life so far is longer than this and I can type it without thinking in few seconds.

    I wonder if anyone here might guess what is the principle behind it? Would dictionary attack work?

  97. Bullshit. The *encrypted* key is? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Nobody sane stores a plaintext key on a device's permanent memory!

    The storage contains an *encrypted* key!

    By entering your passcode of whatever, you decrypt the key into (hopefully volatile enough) RAM of the secure storage. Which is only secure in the way of being separated from the main system and physical tampering. (That is what those PSP/IMEs were good for.)

    But turn the system off, or lock the storage another way... (like emergency locking) ... and no plaintext key is to be found anywhere!

    (In my case, if I pull the key, a udev script automatically locks the data storage and overwrites "ALL the memories", including caches and buffers. And the key is on a chain attached to me, so I can't leave and not pull it. Granted, with untrusted closed consumer hardware, that is only an exercise in "because I can", and not actually much more secure.)

  98. "governmment" by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    What government? The US has none.
    It has a corporate oligarchy of dictators.

    A government, as you use it, would imply there was somehow an independent entity with soverign power.

    And don't now say you didn't imply that, because you did, until it became useful to you winning the argument, to say that you didn't.

    1. Re:"governmment" by Dread_ed · · Score: 1

      I think you have had one too many hits off of the bong, sir. I just said the entire US government was merely an employee of large corporations and banks.

      Independent? Hardly. Sovereign power? Absolutely, though wielded at the behest of their employers, not the Constitution.

      --
      When the only tool you have is a claw hammer every problem starts to look like the back of someone's skull.
  99. Never heard of one-time pads, has he? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Or is he implying the demons had access to they key in the first place too? Because then that is a useless statement, as the implication is useless.

    Given an unavailable key, XORin with a properly random OTP is mathematically uncrackable. Period.
    So unless you find a way to exploit GÃdel's incompleteness theorem, and "prove" mathematics, in itself, invalid ...

  100. Kim Jogn Un Would be Proud by Geek+On+The+Hill · · Score: 1

    At some point the Deep State needs to realize that they work for the people, not the other way around.

  101. Old tech, different approach by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Heck my safe has been doing the brute force slow down for the last 5 years, Does that mean that I am evil and ugly?

  102. The REAL "Evil Geniuses" by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    The guys who wrote these words:
    "The right of the people to be secure in their persons, houses, papers, and effects..."

  103. There is an easier way... by martinfb · · Score: 1

    Why not just fix society's shortcomings?

    There'd be far fewer reasons to invade personal space if there were far fewer reasons to thwart society.
    If (we) were all happy with our government and society, we could focus on progress.

    --


    Self-importance and self-indulgence is the root of ALL evil.
  104. Re: Didn't have to bribe anyone to break every DR by c6gunner · · Score: 1

    Cracking 28 characters consisting of 4 words out of a 2000 most frequently used words dictionary: 2000^4 = 1.6e13 .

    Except that two out of his 4 words aren't in your 2,000 word dictionary. So now what? Gonna try the whole dictionary?

    I like to add some foreign words to my passwords, just for fun. How many dictionaries would you like to try?

  105. Evil Genius? lol. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Sounds like the FBI is pretending to complain about their partners in national security making it easy for them behind the scenes.

  106. Re:I don't know but ask APK about half measures by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Good lord, saying APK three times is similar to saying Beetle Juice...

  107. Re: Didn't have to bribe anyone to break every DR by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    This is all fine except for FBI calling Apple evil geniuses for increasing iterations by 1000 times. That's not even high school math.