Bitcoin Plummets Below $8,000 For First Time Since November (axios.com)

Bitcoin's value dipped $8,000 this morning -- the first time since November 24, according to CNBC -- just hours after the cryptocurrency made news after going under $9,000. From a report: After the news that Bitcoin had headed south of $9,000, CNBC branded the range of $9,000 to $10,000 as "a difficult one for bitcoin to break below" after its surge over $10,000 last year.

Comments

Random number generator

[DrYak]

I think it's time that we categorize the "BTC to USB exchange rate" officially as a "strong random number generator" and call it a day ~
 
:-D

(NOTE: Jokes aside, that doesn't preclude that idea of the cryptocoins' decentralized protocols can be useful).

Re:Random number generator

[Anonymous Coward]

What's the USD to USB conversion rate?

Re:Random number generator

[smallfries]

Surely it always converts to USB3.0 - so it's like the Sony random number generator:

int getUSBNumber(float bitcoins)
{
        return 3; // This version was chosen by a fair die (apologies to XKCD)
}

Re:Random number generator

[mysidia]

There's nothing special about 8000. It's just another 10% decrease below 9000.
The dip is probably not over yet --- I'm anxiously awaiting what the media will say when it hits 7000.

Re:Random number generator

[PopeRatzo]

There's nothing special about 8000. It's just another 10% decrease below 9000.

^^Slashdot math^^

Re: Random number generator

[Anonymous Coward]

That's pretty much 10%. Stop being pedantic...

Re: Random number generator

[PopeRatzo]

That's pretty much 10%. Stop being pedantic...

I'm glad you're not my accountant.

Re: Random number generator

[Anonymous Coward]

We're not doing accounting here. 8000 is "about 10%" less than 9000. We redefine "about" when we do accounting.

Re:Random number generator

[Anonymous Coward]

Aw look, another no-coiner loser venting his jealousy of guys like me. How cute!

By the way, even in the unlikely event it breaches $7000, I'll still be WAAAY up because I understand the technology and therefore the value proposition and have therefore been adding to my Bitcoin wealth for a long time now.

Re:Random number generator

[Anonymous Coward]

Thanks for the input, you insufferable douche.

Re:Random number generator

[Anonymous Coward]

I am afraid it would go down further. I noticed some government are blocking BTC exchanges. Case in point, South Korea, next India. With all these blocking, there's no way BTC will recover higher than $10,000. I have a feeling some huge government are discussing to destroy this currency.

Re: Random number generator

[PopeRatzo]

We're not doing accounting here. 8000 is "about 10%" less than 9000.

8000 is also "about" 10,000. So will you give me 10,000 for my 8000 bitcoin? Since we're talking about bitcoin and not accounting.

Re: Random number generator

[Anonymous Coward]

South Korea did not ban exchanges. They banned anonymous trading because of tax evasion. This dip has nothing to do with that and every thing to do with: 1. Bitcoin was in a massive bubble. 2. Tether is being investigated for not having enough money to back all USDT which was used to massively pump Bitcoin.

Re: Random number generator

[ShanghaiBill]

8000 is also "about" 10,000. So will you give me 10,000 for my 8000 bitcoin?

Different precision is used for different purposes. If you are doing an actual transaction, then exact precision is used. If we are just having a casual conversation about whether the btc bubble has burst, then it doesn't matter much if it is at 8000 or 8001 or even 8100.

I am also an Aspie, and I am sometimes irrationally pedantic myself, so I empathize with your affliction.

Re:Random number generator

[Anonymous Coward]

I think it's time that we categorize the "BTC to USB exchange rate" officially as a "strong random number generator" and call it a day ~ :-D

(NOTE: Jokes aside, that doesn't preclude that idea of the cryptocoins' decentralized protocols can be useful).

Having a read at the comments here, I can see why I did not buy Bitcoin sooner. I honestly thought that I was too smart to fall for the scam. A little too smart. Overthinkingly smart. Missed-the-bus-but-too-proud-to-get-on-the-next-one smart.

Re:Random number generator

[LynnwoodRooster]

Currently it's 1.75 RS232s, but can go as high as a Firewire.

Re:Random number generator

[Anonymous Coward]

Several things wrong with your statements.

"venting his jealousy of guys like me"

What gives you the impression he is jealous of you?

"and therefore the value proposition"

Yep, that just screams duche.. Anyone who uses "value proposition" in a sentence... giant duche.

Re:Random number generator

[ayesnymous]

Son: "Dad, can I borrow 0.01 worth of Bitcoin?" Dad: "You want to borrow $100? What do you need $80 for?"

Pop

[Anonymous Coward]

...goes the bubble

Re:Pop

[Anonymous Coward]

SELL SELL SELL

Re:Pop

[Anonymous Coward]

SELL SELL SELL

Yes. You should always sell when the price drops.
Once it goes back up again, buy.

Re:Pop

[HiThere]

Maybe. The thing is, a bit coin's intrinsic value is nothing. Not even the electricity used to mine it. So it could easily drop all the way to zero.

OTOH, it's useful to those who want to do unrecorded transactions. Until that shield is broken, it will retain some value. (Send me 8,000 bitcoins or all your files will remain encrypted!) It's not clear that the social value of bitcoin is positive. It's certainly expensive to generate new ones, and it's designed so that the cost of that can be expected to increase without limit if it continues to be used. Which means that over time, if it continues to be used, it will consume more electricity (or at least computations) than everything else that humanity does put together....unless P = NP, or there's a bug in the algorithm, or some other unlikely thing. (Is a bug *that* unlikely?)

Thus I think that bitcoin is likely to be a net social detriment. And this is without regard to whether some small group could take it over.

Re:Pop

[gringer]

OTOH, it's useful to those who want to do unrecorded transactions.

Bitcoin is the opposite of unrecorded. The history of bitcoin transactions are stored, immutably, as an unencrypted public record on the computer of everyone who has a Bitcoin wallet. As soon as a Bitcoin transaction is deanonymised by linking with any other dataset, the entire bitcoin transaction history of both parties can also be linked to that dataset.

Re:Pop

[ctilsie242]

Bitcoin might wind up becoming the Myspace of cryptocurrencies... notable as a pioneer, but others supplanted it. Already, we have Ethereum and other coin offerings which can handle a number of BTC's shortcomings, and ICOs are happening on an hourly basis. Eventually there will be a Bitcoin 2.0 which fixes the biggest shortcomings, be it anonymity, cost of transactions, time for transactions to propagate to the blockchain, having to have the entire blockchain stored locally to ensure you are not double-spent, etc.

Re:Pop

[jonbryce]

Almost any other cryptocurrency out there is better than bitcoin for that. Bitcoin can be traced, and also, it is really slow and expensive to do transactions.

Re:Pop

[HiThere]

And unattributed transactions doesn't work either. Perhaps anonymous transactions.

And it has been asserted (by implication) that I made another mistake in my estimate of the amount of energy required for transactions. If the cost of the computation is really related to the volume of transactions in such a way that it's not monotonically increasing then I severely overestimated the potential eventual energy cost.

Bummer

[110010001000]

I invested a lot of money in Bitcoin when it hit $10k. I better just hold onto it until it goes over $10k again, then I will sell. Until then, I'll just sit back and collect the dividends from it.

Re:Bummer

[The123king]

HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA

I'd sell now if you don't want to make a huge loss on it

Re:Bummer

[PeeAitchPee]

Why don't you just go to Vegas and put it all on red? Your odds are about the same.

Re:Bummer

[110010001000]

Actually, I just bought more. Buy low and sell high.

Re:Bummer

[110010001000]

My rule is never to bet against black.

Re:Bummer

[Anonymous Coward]

Your sarcasm detector needs some help. A hint is the part about sitting back and collecting DIVIDENDS on it - which is a reference to what stock holders often do as a stock drops.

Re:Bummer

[jellomizer]

Buy High and sell Low!

Re:Bummer

[Oswald McWeany]

Buy High and sell Low!

I think a lot of bitcoin investors probably bought whilst high.

Re:Bummer

[110010001000]

If there is one thing I have learned from Slashdot: past performance is an indicator of future performance. Just look at computers: my first one only had 64k in memory and had a 1MHz processor. Look at my computer today. Thus, the computers twenty years from now will be amazing! After all, things just continue getting better and better. There are no limits: only your dreams!

Re:Bummer

[jellomizer]

Unless it will still go down to its actual value. Thus you are still buying high.

The point of bit coins was to buy thing with it. Not hold onto it and convert to cash as a retirement fund.
While people are still hording it, and not spending them, they are in essence useless. Because even at 8k that is still too expensive and too volatile to risk buying stuff with it.

I remember the guy who bought a pizza for a lot of bitcoins. Which at the time was about $20.00 worth. Which only after a few years became Millions of dollars.

Re:Bummer

[110010001000]

What is the actual value of a bitcoin? It will go back up. Things always continue upwards.

Re:Bummer

[110010001000]

The only reason I am fat is because I eat to relieve the stress from owning Bitcoin.

Re:Bummer

[SniffTheGlove]

Nope things do not always continue upwards... One word GRAVITY

Re:Bummer

[110010001000]

Physics is irrelevant. My wristwatch has more memory than all the computers in the 1940s. Think about how much memory my wristwatch will have in 2030.

Re:Bummer

[sjames]

And there's the issue. The bubble has to pop. The entire basis of bitcoin retaining value was that it would become an everyday currency used for buying and selling goods and services. It's current value and volatility preclude that, so it's valueation (not value) is supported primarily by investors running around like chickens looking for the next kernel of corn. Let someone yell BOO and it all goes to hell.

Re:Bummer

[110010001000]

You are mom? I might be fat, but I still have my Bitcoins!

Re:Bummer

[GoJays]

That is if the stock even pays a dividend, not all stocks do. Fiat currencies don't pay dividends, let's not even get into Cryptocurrencies, Bitcoin might as well be a slot machine in terms of "investing". Those who "invest" in Bitcoin are about as smart as the gamblers who claim they consistently turn a profit at the casino.

Re:Bummer

[sjames]

But then you'll install windows 20 on it and the standard 12 anti-virus programs and the 6 hidden trackers and keyloggers and the performance will resemble an Altair.

Re:Bummer

[110010001000]

But it is based on blockchain technology. You guys don't know what you are talking about. My cell phone can talk to me and answer my questions using AI.

Re:Bummer

[110010001000]

By then your typical computer will be fully AI and blockchain enabled and will be able to defend itself against virus and malware. Computers can already beat the best Go masters at Go. So you can count on it happening.

Re:Bummer

[DontBeAMoran]

One word... Australia.

Re:Bummer

[Anonymous Coward]

Physics is irrelevant. My wristwatch has more memory than all the computers in the 1940s. Think about how much memory my wristwatch will have in 2030.

So each bit dropped in value?

Re:Bummer

[Anonymous Coward]

Things always continue upwards.

False.

Re:Bummer

[Anonymous Coward]

I think that's a good explanation for your animosity. Possibly your lack of education as well.

Re:Bummer

[Anonymous Coward]

The actual value is 0. It may go back up and then it may go down for a while but it's still worth 0 because it's not backed by anything so eventually something will replace it. Bitcoin 2.0? Digital Dollars? Who knows but eventually it will return to the void from which it came.

Re:Bummer

[Oswald McWeany]

By then your typical computer will be fully AI and blockchain enabled and will be able to defend itself against virus and malware.

By then, your computer will consider you to be the virus/malware.

Re:Bummer

[Anonymous Coward]

You gotta love this trolling ability. :)

Re:Bummer

[Anonymous Coward]

Just 20 more lottery tickets. I will win big this time. I just know it.

Re:Bummer

[smallfries]

If you build it... they will come.

Re: Bummer

[Anonymous Coward]

"currencies don't pay dividends"

Yes, that was the joke.

Re:Bummer

[XXongo]

By then your typical computer will be fully AI and blockchain enabled and will be able to defend itself against virus and malware.

By then, your computer will consider you to be the virus/malware.

And the actual malware will be a self-aware AI.

Re:Bummer

[Anonymous Coward]

Unless this IS the high value, then you are fucked.

But my guess is you didn't buy shit today. You are holding on to your precious coins in the hope that if you pump it enough you can get the value back up to where you don't lose too much.

Re:Bummer

[mysidia]

The entire basis of bitcoin retaining value was that it would become an everyday currency used for buying and selling goods and services. It's current value and volatility preclude that

If its current volatility is temporary, then it doesn't preclude that --- so long as its value is increasing, and the merchants have a payment provider willing to protect the merchant from price changes during the payment process.

Re:Bummer

[Anonymous Coward]

..I'll just sit back and collect the dividends from it.

Hilarious. Well done.

Re:Bummer

[Anonymous Coward]

No it can't. It can relay the audio to a server, who then processes it and sends you an appropriate response. Your cell phone can't do shit other than monitor you and report on your location.

Re: Bummer

[aliquis]

So why are you buying a worthless coin with amazingly high and wasteful transaction coins again?
Since when is it worth 220 billion or whatever (10k Ã-- 22 million for this crap? )

Bitcoin as is is useless for day to day transactions. Others are more efficient.

Re:Bummer

[tbannist]

What is the actual value of a bitcoin?

The actual (intrinsic) value of a bitcoin is $0.

The only reason it's valued above $0 is the perception that it has more value than that. I can't tell you whether Bitcoin will ever be valued above $10k in 2017 equivalent dollars, again because that's mostly down to the actions of speculators and possibly currency manipulators. There's also the small problem that there isn't really anything special about Bitcoin that make it inherently more valuable than Litecoin, Namecoin, Swiftcoin, Bytecoin, Peercoin, Dogecoin, Emercoin, Feathercoin, Gridcoin, Omni, Primecoin, Ripple, Nxt, Auroracoin, BlackCoin, Burstcoin, Dash, NEO, MazaCoin, Monero, NEM, PotCoin, Titcoin, Verge, Stellar, Vertcoin, Ether, IOTA, Sia, sixEleven, Decred, Waves, Lisk, Zcash, Komodo, Ubiq, EOS, Electroneum, TRON, Cardano, or Petro. It's value is basically based on speculation and name recognition.

Note, I left Tether off that list because Tether is inherently more valuable than Etherium because it is tied to $1 USD, but because it's tied it's value shouldn't fluctuate making it speculative value approximately $0.

It will go back up. Things always continue upwards.

As a warning, it's been almost 400 years since the peak of Tulip mania and looking at a Dutch flower exporter, the highest price is approximately $2 per bulb, but the high price in 1637 was reported to be around $100 guilders. That means the current price is approximately 3.6% of the peak value (using today's exchange rate). At that rate, the price will have fully recovered in approximately 10,000 years. Now inflation will surely cause it to reach $100 sooner than that (using historic rates, it would still take over 100 years), but the point is it could take a very, very long time to recover.

Re:Bummer

[Rolgar]

Can't tell if you are serious or not.

What happens when the cost of mining (processing transactions) drops below the amount you would make in new coins? If it costs $4000 in energy to mine a coin and the cost of bitcoin drops below that price $4000, and intelligent miners turn off their rigs or switch to other coins, and the entire house of cards that is bitcoin will collapse.

Re: Bummer

[aliquis]

When people invest in currencies they actually do get interest ..

Re:Bummer

[Rockoon]

I'm too lazy to work it out but I suspect that more than half the money sent in on bitcoins was when it was above 12000.

Re:Bummer

[110010001000]

I am using the tried and true method of dollar cost averaging to buy Bitcoins in this market. Now is a good time to buy. I believe that Musk will make Bitcoin his official currency for his Mars colony. They are launching Falcon Heavy soon and that is the first step.

Re:Bummer

[110010001000]

The Dutch didn't have chess playing AI computers, blockchains and reusable rockets that can deliver things to LEO. 1637 was almost 500 years ago. Imagine what computers will be like in 500 years.

Re:Bummer

[tripleevenfall]

You're missing the point. Bitcoin is going to go up forever. Just look at last year. Besides, everyone in the world who owns any bitcoin claims they've made a killing off it. Literally everyone is making money, just ask them!

Re:Bummer

[110010001000]

Bitcoin doesn't require that new bitcoins continually need to be produced in order for it to work. There will only be 21 million bitcoins mined ever. You should get yours now, or you will need to buy them on the open market at a higher price later when you need them.

Re: Bummer

[110010001000]

I think you didn't read even the headline. They aren't worthless. They are worth $8000 each.

Re:Bummer

[110010001000]

You will never convince the sheep. Apparently they don't realize that their phone contains more processing power than the most powerful computers of the 1940s. It is fine: more profits for me.

Re:Bummer

[Anonymous Coward]

oh look, i just forked bitcoin, i will call it coward coin, it is based on blockchain technology too!

what is so valuable about it if even i can copy it?

Re:Bummer

[110010001000]

It is always a good idea to have a broad investment in multiple cryptocurrencies. I also have significant investments in Etherium and Ripple as well. Obviously you are being facetious about "coward coin" but if you actually did produce a viable cryptocurrencies it would be worth evaluating as an investment.

Re:Bummer

[Anonymous Coward]

I really hope you spent all your money on bitcoin, it gives me another reason to laugh every time it crashes.

Re:Bummer

[110010001000]

I am not stupid: I never sell during the crash. You only lose when you sell. In fact, you should do the opposite and buy during crashes.

Re:Bummer

[neilo_1701D]

Things always continue upwards.

I've got some Enron shares in a shoebox somewhere.

Re:Bummer

[Aaden42]

The difficulty balancing algorithm prevents that from happening. The amount of computing power needed to solve each block is variable based on how much real time it took to solve the last block. The algorithm adjusts the difficulty (how much of hash has to be zeros in Bitcoin) to keep the solve time relatively constant.

If lots of people turn off their rigs for any reason, the current block will take a long time; but the next block will drop its difficulty to compensate based on available mining resources. If the difficulty gets high enough that cost of power exceeds the value of the coin mined, some people give up, and the difficulty falls accordingly until it reaches equilibrium.

Balancing should ensure that people who mine make a modest profit. It's only mad money for miners when the coin they mine is in the middle of an asset bubble that balloons its value almost before they've finished earning it. The bubble has to deflate eventually (I believe I hear a leaking sound now...), but mining should continue to stay profitable as long as people are interested in using coin.

Re:Bummer

[neilo_1701D]

Bitcoin doesn't require that new bitcoins continually need to be produced in order for it to work.

True, but it does require that network of computers running...

Don't forget, mining a coin is a reward for keeping the system running.

Re:Bummer

[110010001000]

That is a good thing. You haven't lost any real money if you still own the shares. You only lose when you sell and can't recover your initial investment. That is Investing 101.

Re:Bummer

[beernutmark]

Yep. Any day now I expect my Beanie Baby collection to go back to it's old value and continue it's inevitable upwards climb.

Re:Bummer

[The123king]

Technological progression is not linked in any way to economics. If it was, there would have been no video games crash, no dotcom bubble, and no bitcoin bubble. Also just because my phone has more processing power than the Apollo Lunar Lander, doesn't mean it will get me to the moon.

Re:Bummer

[Anonymous Coward]

If that's the logic you're using to come to the conclusion that bitcoin will always increase in value then you should stay well clear of it or you will learn a supremely expensive lesson.

Re: Bummer

[Anonymous Coward]

That's perceived value, not actual value. Cryptocurrencies, much like the dot-com scams of the late 1990s, work by snake oil salesmen scamming people into buying something quite worthless by making them think there is value. Cryptocurrencies are tied to nothing tangible much like much of the dot-com stocks of the 1990s, the ones that are dot-gone. Sooner or later they will all crash and crash hard and there will be some winners but loads of losers and it will trigger a ripple effect in the economy that could trigger yet another recession. Then again, sheeple like you are so gullible that you want others to buy into the scam so you can come out ahead. Sorry but the vast majority of people will not fall for that scam.

Re:Bummer

[110010001000]

I think you are confusing mining with transaction processing. Plus computers are always going to get faster and faster and networks are going to get bigger and bigger.

Re:Bummer

[jrumney]

My cell phone can talk to me and answer my questions using AI.

You do know your voice commands really just go through to a call center full of carefully trained orcas, don't you?

Re: Bummer

[Anonymous Coward]

It's obviously more valuable than Dogecoin.

Re:Bummer

[Anonymous Coward]

My word, you have really drank all the cool-aid and are no going full retard on the bitcoin nonsense.

Re:Bummer

[Anonymous Coward]

Digital data storage goes down pretty predictably:

http://www.mkomo.com/cost-per-gigabyte

Re:Bummer

[Anonymous Coward]

That is a reasonable conflation to make since mining IS transaction processing.

Until mining isn't possible anymore it will BE transaction processing. After that, the benefit of processing will be the processing fees alone.

Re: Bummer

[Anonymous Coward]

Oh, thank god, you really were being sarcastic after all. I feel better now. Most of your posts are only a razor's edge away from what real coiner idiots say. Bravo! I applaud your brilliance!

Re:Bummer

[Anonymous Coward]

Australians always go down?

Re:Bummer

[DontBeAMoran]

Australia is up-side down, gravity is reversed so they always go upward... whatever.

Re: Bummer

[Anonymous Coward]

I realize youâ(TM)re being somewhat facetious, but a Bitcoin has zero intrinsic value. You didnâ(TM)t have to work for it, and itâ(TM)s not backed by an asset. One coin may be currently worth $8k or whatever, but itâ(TM)s not useful. I do feel somewhat bad for that dude from ripple who on paper was worth more than Zuckerberg last month. But I suspect that heâ(TM)s one of the high coin holders amongst all cryptocoins who have been freaking out and selling and trying to salvage whatever they can.

Re: Bummer

[Anonymous Coward]

Some of these comments are way too funny. The dividends comment was one. The other was how thereâ(TM)s a 10% difference between 7000 and 8000.

Re:Bummer

[Dare nMc]

> Bitcoin doesn't require that new bitcoins continually need to be produced in order for it to work.

I was wondering about you enthusiasm until this point. Now that it is obvious you do not actually know how bitcoin transactions take place, your other posts make much more sense.

Re:Bummer

[110010001000]

Yep. Just look at this graph:

https://www.backblaze.com/blog...

Oh wait, things are flattening out? I better sell my Bitcoin ASAP!

Re:Bummer

[Howitzer86]

The intrinsic value if Bitcoin is based in the amount of suckers remaining. They think they're the clever ones who can make money with it, but everyday they are becoming wise to the whole scam and getting out with what they can. Thus, the precipitous drop.

Re:Bummer

[110010001000]

I know how it works. Blockchain.

Re: Bummer

[Howitzer86]

Maybe that's what he wants you to think.

Re:Bummer

[lactose99]

I wish this bubble would burst, it'd be nice to get a video card at a reasonable price this year.

Re:Bummer

[lactose99]

Orcas are so yesterday, its Emotional Support Animal peacocks now.

Re:Bummer

[Anonymous Coward]

Id say I walk away from casinos fairly often with more money in my pocket. The key is knowing when to walk away.

Thats usually only about 40 or 50 bucks though and maybe twice a year. Im not willing to risk more lol. If you averaged the losses from the times where I dont walk away with more I probably come close to breaking even over the long run.

Re:Bummer

[thegarbz]

Suddenly today's news makes sense: https://cryptoslate.com/myster...

Re:Bummer

[Anonymous Coward]

What is the actual value of a bitcoin? It will go back up. Things always continue upwards.

You're right. They tell me I'm a fool to hang on to this Bear Stearns share certificate, but we'll see who has the last laugh.

Re:Bummer

[Anonymous Coward]

If it costs $4000 in energy to mine a coin and the cost of bitcoin drops below that price $4000, and intelligent miners turn off their rigs or switch to other coins,

That's exactly what will happen.

  and the entire house of cards that is bitcoin will collapse.

No, because you missed the difficulty adjustment. If miners leave, the difficulty will go down. That will make mining coins easier (and cheaper). In other words, the cost of production will adjust to the value of the coins produced.

Re:Bummer

[jwhyche]

I would be wary of any graphics card used in a mining operation. Most of those cards will be way overclocked with out adequate cooling, and ran for months that way.

Re:Bummer

[jwhyche]

You should get yours now,

I should get one to go with my 100 trillion dollar Zimbabwe bank note. How would I frame a bitcoin? I guess I could put it on a thumb drive then frame that.

Re:Bummer

[Anonymous Coward]

Unfortunately you made a common error here- In 1637, the Dutch still used Florins, official Guilders were still a few decades away, (1680). However ~100 Florins are about right for the year; the peak of 150-300 Florins only lasted a few weeks. (From wikipedia.)
Values here swung widely; Tulips weren't the only means of speculation, and there were many specie used in International Trade; Specie being officially defined as Gold and Silver coinage only, and not species of Flower. Around that time, a Dutch Florin was about 10 grams of pure silver, but there were many different Florins, and Tulips point to an underlying cause- Currency Arbitrage.
So 100 Dutch Florins was about a Kilogram of Silver.
Currently, the average value for a gram of Silver for the last year or so is 55 US Cents, (~$16-$17/oz), so the average Tulip Bulb in 1637 went for about $500 in 2017 Dollars, with peaks up to 10X that for specific bulbs. Beware of anecdotes here, like the Sailor who ate a Tulip Bulb mistaking it for a raw Onion, thus eating the wages for a year of his entire crew. Tulip Bulbs just don't taste that good, even fried up with Liver, and Crews weren't paid that poorly.

Re:Bummer

[jwhyche]

I keep mine by the toilet. You know, just in case. At least they are worth something there.

Re:Bummer

[Dare nMc]

Sure, But I doubt you understand the Bitcoin implementation of Blockchain, which likely why you are quoting things like the upper limit of the number of bitcoin, that was based on the original software, and the idea of that being fixed. It is not, the second that most miners and traders decide it is no longer in their best interest to have a upper limit, the upper limit is gone (not in the original theory, which no longer matters as it is not in use anymore.)

which the value is based on the difficulty to exchange. It doesn't cease to exist, but it becomes no longer self sustaining when other currency has to pay for the exchange and validation of each bit coin. At that point it will cease to be a currency. Bitcoin would then have to increase in price each time they are exchanged to be worth exchanging, without mining generating new coin. So they will then be all locked up in a couple bitcoin banks (happening already) and cease to be traded with the blockchain, as trading inside the bank will be cheaper, the block chain would cease to exist as a functional entity.

But the save is in, the exchanges are determined by the majority. So it will just be change the protocol to generate more coin.

Re:Bummer

[Anonymous Coward]

You are hooking everyone today. Good job.

Re:Bummer

[Anonymous Coward]

" when you need them."

Oh god that's a good one.

Re:Bummer

[Anonymous Coward]

What is the intrinsic value of a 100 dollar bill?

Re:Bummer

[Anonymous Coward]

I can make a similar ridiculous comparison.

My dog spent 1 hour licking his balls on on Monday, spent 1 1/2 hours licking his balls on Wednesday, and spent 2 hours licking his balls today. By the end of the year, he will be licking his balls for 300 hours per day. In 50 years, he will dedicate 873,645,876,345 per day to ball licking.

Re:Bummer

[Anonymous Coward]

Using today's exchange rate, 100 guilders is worth $0, unless you're talking about the melt or numismatic value of the coins or need some toilet paper rather urgently. You might as well quote the price of tulips in Triganic Pu.

Re:Bummer

[Anonymous Coward]

The dutch have so many alpha-beta chess playing computers. Rebel, Chessmaster, TheKing, ChessTiger to name a few. Those were not toy chess engines from Netherlands, in fact those engines won the WCCC many times.

Re:Bummer

[MMC Monster]

I invested a lot of money in Bitcoin when it hit $10k. I better just hold onto it until it goes over $10k again, then I will sell. Until then, I'll just sit back and collect the dividends from it.

LOL. Yeah, dividends.

Currencies and commodities don't give out dividends.

Re:Bummer

[Anonymous Coward]

In the case of Bitcoin, I think it's "buy high and sell drunk!"

Re: Bummer

[houghi]

At the peak of tulip mania, in February 1637, some single tulip bulbs sold for more than 10 times the annual income of a skilled craftsworker. And 4.200guilders then. So 10 year wages would make that say 750.000EUR. Compare that to 2EUR. So your percentage is a bit off.

Most of thatfrom the wiki page.

Re:Bummer

[stabiesoft]

I am pretty sure you are being sarcastic in the whole thread, fun nevertheless. One point on Enron though, they went BK, so you cannot sell the shares. If they were held in a taxable account (IE not in a 401/IRA), you would want to write them off as a total loss.

Re: Bummer

[Anonymous Coward]

So like the earth then right? I mean eventually everything will return to the void from which it came. Value is determined by what someone else is will to trade for something NOW.

Re:Bummer

[Anonymous Coward]

I think lactose is referring to the fact that farms have been inflating the price of cards, not that he would buy a used one

Re:Bummer

[Comrade Ogilvy]

... but mining should continue to stay profitable as long as people are interested in using coin.

Careful there. In the long run, what you say is correct, as a matter of average behavior. But there is nothing intrinsic about the facts of mining that say the individual miners cannot be taking losses. At the margins, the mining must make more money than the electricity bill, or rigs will be shut down (or swapped to other crypto ecosystems), and miners can refuse transactions that do not provide bounties, to make sure they at least break even. But the hardware was not free, so an individual miner could go bankrupt, while making breadcrumbs mining.

Re: Bummer

[Anonymous Coward]

"$100 guilders"

Wow! Who would have known in the 1600s the Dutch were using USD. Are those $100 Guilders more valuable than the $50 ones? What makes your comment even more humorous is the fact that the Guilder was actually backed by gold and silver. So it is another commodity that is valued on its speculative value rather than its intrinsic value. So you have people trading worthless tulips for worthless metal.

Re:Bummer

[Anonymous Coward]

The other day I needed to spellcheck a document but I had to wait because my computer was busy verifying a proof of Fermat's Last Theorem. It was a little inconvenient but what can you do?

Re: Bummer

[santiago]

Hereâ(TM)s a riddle for you: If you owned every last Bitcoin, how much would they be worth? Zero.

Re: Bummer

[Anonymous Coward]

Dear Mr binary,

Congratulations on one of the best whoosh threads on Slashdot ever! You have perfected it to an art.

Re:Bummer

[Thud457]

Enron

Looks like it's still worth something

Re:Bummer

[slew]

Enron

Looks like it's still worth something

As the article notes, it will cost more in brokerage fees to issue the shares than the trading value of the shares on the pink sheets.

Hell, my dad still holds** Enron shares in a brokerage account and even the *trading* fees are larger than the trading value of the stock (if he were to actually able sell the shares, his net would be negative).

**Fortunately, an IRS rule change about 10 years ago generously allows you to write off the loss w/o having to actually sell the shares in the case of illiquid stock losses that trade on the pink sheets. Of course if the stock is ever worth anything in the future, and you sell them, you have to use a zero basis, not your purchase basis in determining the gain.

Re:Bummer

[Comrade Ogilvy]

...There's also the small problem that there isn't really anything special about Bitcoin that make it inherently more valuable than...

That is a subtlety that the cryptocurrencies fetishists carefully avoid thinking about. It turns out that pure fiat cryptocurrencies such as Bitcoin are the least protected from hyperinflation of any kind "money". Because it is so easy to "print" entire new cryptocurrencies and the switching costs are low, the potential for hyperinflation in an individual cryptocurrency would shock even Robert Mugabe.

Re: Bummer

[aliquis]

Well.. On the other hand they were worth just cents back when the transactions was much more efficient =P

Technically it's not impressive any longer. As for how much the biggest idiot want to pay who knows (I say just to buy some later at 10-100 times the current price! ;D)

Re:Bummer

[Anonymous Coward]

Thanks, Wesley!

Re: Bummer

[Anonymous Coward]

What if I offered ONE MILLION dollars for it?

Ha! Your theory turns out to be quite a hollow lie now, doesn't it? I bet you feel stupid now.

Re:Bummer

[guygo]

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/...

Re:Bummer

[Anonymous Coward]

If it costs $4000 to mine a Bitcoin, and BTC's value drops to $1000, the algorithm will drop the difficulty in cranking out coins to correspond with the lack of demand.

Re:Bummer

[Anonymous Coward]

Then the exchanges get hacked (Mt. Gox, anyone?), and people re-learn to do their trading either on the blockchain, or trade to another cryptocurrency for making transactions.

Bitcoin is a good currency, but there are other currencies which are "v 2.0" ones. I would say BTC is a great store of value, but if I want to trade, I'd use DASH or something with some anonymity built in.

Re:Bummer

[neo-mkrey]

Wait...there is a TRON coin?

Where do I sign up?

Re:Bummer

[Anonymous Coward]

lmao, there should be a "funny troll" mod..."funny" will have to do hahahaha

Re:Bummer

[Anonymous Coward]

The same as it has now. It's the same wristwatch!

Re:Bummer

[GeekWithAKnife]

Apparently there is a way to evaluate worth by users...Metcalfe's law.

Depending on how you count users (as this can vary the results) BTC is "worth" $2500 - $5000

People aren not buying what it is worth they are buying what it will be worth when LN + MAST are live and in mass user on mainnet.

Once people traded with shells and feathers and it seemed ridiculous because it's not gold...then they traded paper to represent gold until it didn't represent gold. What is the value of a feather? The answer lies in the amount of people believing it has value.

Re:Bummer

[david_thornley]

My wife once took a photo of a Cray-1 supercomputer with her original iPhone. As far as I could figure it, the 2000s phone had more power than the 1970s supercomputer.

Re:Bummer

[david_thornley]

and the merchants have a payment provider willing to protect the merchant from price changes during the payment process.

The merchants can either eat the loss when it happens, or pay somewhat more than they'd have to eat in order to spread out the losses. Security from risk is a valuable commodity, and why we have insurance in the first place.

Re:Bummer

[david_thornley]

The key is knowing when to walk away.

Sure. You note when you happen to lose, and you walk away just before that. Unfortunately, it's a two-pass algorithm. Since casinos run on randomness (unless you're good enough at blackjack to be banned from playing it), your wins and losses are entirely unpredictable.

You can decide that you'll walk away when you're ahead, but expected waiting time to get ahead in a fair game is infinite (look up some random walk theory - this is a 1D random walk). There's also the fact that you can't wait for eternity before losing all your money.

I probably come close to breaking even over the long run.

Sure; that's how casinos keep you gambling more so they can keep getting your money and returning enough so you're not too far from breaking even. House percentages are not normally large.

Personally, when I think of betting, I start seeing expected value overlaid as if it were on a heads-up display, and I can compare it with what I'm betting. It takes a lot of fun out of it.

Re:Bummer

[david_thornley]

With a self-aware AI, exactly what the malware is depends on your point of view.

Re:Bummer

[Anonymous Coward]

of course not, it's just big bank$$ doing the same thing to BTC than they are doing right now to venezuela

Re:Bummer

[mysidia]

The merchant doesn't need "insurance" --- they simply engage with a payment provider such as BitPay.

When the transaction is initiated, for $5, for example.... BitPay looks at the current exchange rate and charges the customer $5 plus a network transaction fee PLUS a 2 to 3% premium on the exchange rate, and locks in that rate for a specified amount of time --- if the transaction completes within that time, then the merchant is paid $5 and the transaction is finished.

If the price of a Bitcoin in fiat increased or didn't change, then that 2 to 3% premium is pure profit for the payment provider.

If the price of a Bitcoin in fiat decreased during that time window, but less than the 3%, then there is reduced profit for the payment provider.

A loss only occurs if the transaction turns out costing them more than their premium and the network fee that are all paid by the customer.

Re:Bummer

[sjames]

It's going to have to freefall to lose the serious volatility. Unfortunately, that will drive transaction costs up since it still costs electricity to mine coins.

Even a conference on everything bitcoin isn't taking payment in bitcoin.

Currently, bitcoin value is certainly not increasing.

Re:Bummer

[sjames]

BitPay is providing the insurance.

Re: Bummer

[Anonymous Coward]

Indeed. Also, smart miners prefer to undervolt their cards as a 6% cut in speed can allow a 20% cut in power usage.

How many are smart is another matter... Plus they've all been used 24/7, which is a bummer for longevity on secondary components.

Re: Bummer

[Anonymous Coward]

The trick to counting in blackjack without getting banned is to not walk out of the casino with the casino's money. You take those profits and them go gamble at roulette and then, on the times you win, hit the poker table where you take sucker money out. Or live it up on property.

Treat the winnings as a free trip. If you show up at a party, regularly clean out the host and then immediately leave... You don't get invited back after a while.

Re:Bummer

[Anonymous Coward]

No. We sometimes come up for air.

Re:Bummer

[Anonymous Coward]

There is, it's TRX.

https://coinmarketcap.com/curr... to sign up.

Re:Bummer

[Citizen of Earth]

I know that I want to pay a $60 service fee every time I tap my Bitcoin card for a corner-store purchase!

Re:Bummer

[Anonymous Coward]

Ok, so we wait FIVE hundred years!!!!

Re:Bummer

[vandamme]

At least tulip bulbs have intrinsic value.

Extremely Goku voice:

[Anonymous Coward]

IT'S UNDER NINE THOUSAND!!!

Re:Extremely Goku voice:

[ArtemaOne]

FTW

Re:Extremely Goku voice:

[Anonymous Coward]

I think you mean Vegeta's voice

Re: Extremely Goku voice:

[Anonymous Coward]

KAKAROTTTTT

Bubble Economics.

[jellomizer]

Products that are getting more expensive because they are expected to be sold for more money later. Is often creates a bubble condition.

The Bit Coin price kept on going up, so people wouldn't spend them, thus cause the price to go up further. Until they hit a peak were they decided to sell them. Then the market gets flooded with bit coins who's guaranteed value to increase is no longer expected. So they will sell them for less to get as much as they can out of it.

This happened with the Housing Market
This happened with the Tech Market
This happened with the Comic Book Market

  Lucky for us, the Bit Coin Bubble wasn't a big part of the economy, so the looser in the Bit Coin Gamble arn't bringing the rest of the economy down.
 

Re:Bubble Economics.

[ArtemaOne]

This is very accurate. I do wish I'd gotten on board when it was in the $900 range, or lower obviously, but I can't imagine all the people who got it when it was fast approaching $20k, that is going to be a huge loss. With all the governments around the world blocking crypto currencies and loss of confidence it will probably settle at a more realistic number that represents the value of using your PC to mine it, providing processing power to those who don't want to build their own datacenter.

Re:Bubble Economics.

[Whatsmynickname]

Lucky for us, the Bit Coin Bubble wasn't a big part of the economy, so the looser in the Bit Coin Gamble arn't bringing the rest of the economy down.

Maybe this is the best thing ever. It puts the bubble speculators and idiots who twitch whenever the "next big market" comes along and puts them in their own virtual world which isolates them from the real economy and keeps housing / market prices sane. Just like a virtual machine on a computer does...

Re:Bubble Economics.

[vtcodger]

NY TIMES Nov 18, 2005 ... THERE is a venerable Wall Street joke featuring an investor who, having accumulated a large position in an illiquid stock, decides it is time to get out. "Yes, sir," replies the broker when he is told to sell. "To whom?"

Re:Bubble Economics.

[Anonymous Coward]

There is one more thing that's needed for a bubble, and that's leverage - investing with loaned money.

A rich guy who invests in ugly modern art with his own money, in the hope of making a profit - he has the option of just holding on to his asset forever, deluding himself about its "real" value. Even though nobody would actually buy it at the price he asks, he can pretend that's what it's worth.

But someone who's loaning money to buy ugly modern art, needs the asset to appreciate in order to pay interest on the loan. If it doesn't, the bank will eventually force him to sell to cover their losses. This will drive prices lower - and this can cause a chain reaction where other people investing borrowed money are forced to sell.

Re:Bubble Economics.

[Anonymous Coward]

Probably bitcoin itself will go away and be replaced by one of the more efficient cryptocurrencies. Or, improve the transaction block sizes so that the average energy cost of a transaction gets very low (like, pennies to make a transaction). Right now btc is just a joke.

Re:Bubble Economics.

[Anonymous Coward]

I hate to bring you up on current events, but "the rest of the economy" is flat, and down.

Re:Bubble Economics.

[Anonymous Coward]

It's already happening, the only place bitcoin was being used almost exclusively to buy anything is the darknet drug markets. Every single one of them that I'm aware of is in the process of dumping bitcoin for an alternative as it has become utterly useless, some sellers (drug dealers) are actively refusing to accept btc because of the volatility and ludicrous transaction fees.

Re:Bubble Economics.

[TheCastro1689]

There really isn't a loss. The loss from mortgages were the bankruptcies and "money" literally vanished. Here the wealth was transferred. People selling or the exchanges have that money.

Re:Bubble Economics.

[nedlohs]

Unless people also borrowed money to buy their bitcoins...

Wealth includes assets. If someone owned 10 bitcoins that they bought for $10k each, then when bitcoins were $15k each they had $150k in wealth. Now they have $80k. That's clearly a loss in wealth, not a transfer of wealth (that $70k vanished from the books - they didn't transfer it to anyone/etc). Of course that's what you should expect when you "invest" in something so clearly volatile.

Re:Bubble Economics.

[Anonymous Coward]

I do wish I'd gotten on board when it was in the $900 range, or lower obviously,

Exactly! I do wish that I had known the winning lotto numbers when i bought my ticket. (/ future stock prices, ...)

Re:Bubble Economics.

[Anonymous Coward]

There is one more thing that's needed for a bubble, and that's leverage - investing with loaned money.

Counterexample: Beanie Babies, trading cards, ..., all sorts of little-guys speculation. And the little-guy is now driving Bitcoin prices. Grab the popcorn, folks.

Re:Bubble Economics.

[TheRealMindChild]

The Comic book was different in nature. The market was never "flooded" with comics and brought their value down due to overabundance. The market went from fairly local to global with the boom of late 90's internet commerce. There didn't need to be an overabundance. There was someone somewhere in the world willing to sell that $100 comic for $1, regardless of its scarcity.

Re: Bubble Economics.

[houghi]

It would never happen with things that are perishable, like tulip bulbs and people will learn from the mistakes made in the past, right?

Re:Bubble Economics.

[Anonymous Coward]

If you're only looking at a single person sure you can "lose" money by buying high and selling low. When you look at the big picture (i.e. the entire bitcoin market) however money is not really lost or gained (except arguably when exchanges take their cut).

If I buy one bitcoin for 10k someone else has sold their one bitcoin to me and they received 10k for it. The money did not disappear but was transferred to another. Even the transaction fee charged by the exchange and the processing fee given to the miners doesn't disappear but just changes hands. The overall market's buying power has not changed because the money paid for the bitcoin still exists and could be used to buy more bitcoin or other goods.

Likewise if I later sell at 8k I receive 8k but someone else has traded their 8k for my bitcoin. It's the same thing but just in reverse of the original transaction.

Basically if you look at the entire market it is more or less just money changing hands if the good being traded for has no use other than price speculation.

Re:Bubble Economics.

[Anonymous Coward]

You mean with the Dow at the highest it has ever been, and full employment, with it only going upwards?

Re:Bubble Economics.

[Anonymous Coward]

Nothing literally vanished, you nincompoop. Look up the fucking definition!

Re: Bubble Economics.

[Anonymous Coward]

If ten people buy a btc for a dollar and then one person sells one btc for $10, Is the value of held btc $100? Or $19 (the actual buy in total). And if the next sells for $.01? Every transaction does not cause every one else to get paid.

Re:Bubble Economics.

[nedlohs]

You ignore that people count assets as wealth. You know the entire thing my comment talked about.

If someone owns a bunch of shares that are currently worth $5 million that is counted as part of their wealth. I doesn't matter if they bought them for $100,000. They have $5 million in wealth. If the market crashes and those shares are not worth $1 million, then $4 million of their wealth has vanished. They haven't sold a single share, no one else has gained that $4 million. That they are still up $900,000 on their actual original monetary investment doesn't change that either.

Same with bitcoin.

Below $8000

[Anonymous Coward]

And as quickly as "Below $9000" was news, it has already gone below $8000, to about $7800. It has spiked back up and is currently about $8800, but we'll see how long that lasts. Can it break below $7k before I click preview and then submit?

Re:Below $8000

[Mr0bvious]

A boy asked his bitcoin-investing dad for 1 bitcoin for his birthday.
Dad: What? $12,250??? $19,350 is a lot of money! What do you need $8,800 for anyway?

Re:Below $8000

[Anonymous Coward]

Worse that can happen is I can spill some on my $3,000 suit. Come on! Oh, yeah, yeah. The guy in the... the $4,000 suit is holding the elevator for a guy who doesn’t make that in three months. Come on! Oh. Why don’t I just take a whiz through this $5,000 suit?!

Re:Below $8000

[Anonymous Coward]

Funniest fucking post ever.

I just snorted beer out of my nose.
Thanks!

Re:Below $8000

[Anonymous Coward]

Best post all day!

Demand

[Luckyo]

It's likely to go back up sometime around may 2018. Reason for this is massive increase in value of targeted attacks on large organisations, and monetization mechanism of these attacks involving bitcoin.

Basically the new directive will now have EU fine companies up to 5% of their yearly revenue if they have a breach that puts private information at risk and they are found not to have done reasonable precautions to prevent such breach from occurring. That means that where the old ransom for such events was commonly fairly low (often being only 3-4 digits in EUR worth of bitcoin), same criminal actors now actually have a benchmark at what level they can price their successful breach. So now the negotiations between the criminal actors and company will look more like "your yearly revenue is this much, you haven't done your due diligence, we've breached your system and got a lot of private information. Pay us 3% of your monthly revenue and this will go away".

That means many more bitcoins will be needed for paying these criminal actors off, and that means more demand for bitcoin as companies will have to ramp up buying them to have ability to make the pay off.

Re:Demand

[Anonymous Coward]

Really? What companies are f*cking using Bitcoin for anything??? I can't walk next store to GE and hand over a few Bitcoins to buy a jet engine. They want real money. I can't pay my electric bill with any cryptocurrency, nor my Internet service, can't buy a car, can't pay lawyer fees... it's useless.

You have mistaken corporate "interest" in crytocurrency with actual corporate "use". Nobody is using it for business.

Re:Demand

[thaylin]

Actually you can pay all of those things with it, look up bitpay.

Re:Demand

[Anonymous Coward]

That makes zero sense. If you've already been breached to the point that you have to pay a hacker, then you've already fallen victim to the breach and are already liable under the law. Trying to cover it up by paying off the hackers and then not acknowledging that it happened is just asking for way stiffer penalties.

Re:Demand

[Luckyo]

The companies buy bitcoin because criminal actors demand payment in bitcoin. They demand payment in bitcoin because it enables much easier movement of funds outside the reach of the things that tend to work with law enforcement, such as banking system.

Remind yourself what currency overwhelming majority of ransomware asks for as a good example of this.

Re:Demand

[Luckyo]

You appear to be unaware that this form of criminality is common today, and has been for at least a decade at this point.

You can find sources on this in any reasonable university level lecture on information security and crime. Security companies themselves often send people to hold such lectures, and they will literally provide you with screenshots of such intrusions and demands, which are extremely common, when they actually get bad enough to require hiring their experts to solve the underlying security problem.

The thing that is coming with new EU directive is the fact that it sets up stiff fines. Something utterly absent in the past.

Re:Demand

[SpankiMonki]

Uh, with bitpay, aren't you're just using the Visa payment network? In effect, bitpay just loads dollars into a re-charchable Visa card that they get from converting your bitcoins. One *might* be able to use bitpay to pay for a jet engine, but GE gets paid in dollars, not bitcoin.

Re:Demand

[DaveV1.0]

The criminals can claim due diligence wasn't done but that doesn't mean the companies will go for it, especially if they can show due diligence via paperwork. Remember, one can't do due diligence against a zero-day that no one knows about yet.

Re:Demand

[Luckyo]

Problem being that your average corporate intrusion is among the lines of "they got in because you had administrative account on default port for this server left on". Expensive tailored attacks are very rare in comparison. Pretty much every decent university lecture on the issue done by specialists will feature slides of such intrusions just to demonstrate how lax the weakest link in security actually was.

Benefit is that people who get through those holes are usually not well versed in economics, and ask for hilarious sums to undo the damage. That's another permanent fixture of such lectures. You have people who will manage to hit a company that has revenue in tens or hundreds of millions, do potential damage that would be measured in millions at the very least. Then ask for 500-ish USD to undo the damage and help you fix the problem they got in through. Not a joke - this is the reality of infosec professionals today.

The change that is coming with EU directive is that now perpetrators actually have something to use as a measuring stick on how valuable their intrusion is to the company, and adjust their pricing accordingly.

Re:Demand

[Anonymous Coward]

Also, isn't the entire point of bitcoin to avoid using institutions like Visa?
If you end up having to use those institutions to transact in bitcoin why involve the bitcoin?

Re:Demand

[Anonymous Coward]

Actually you can pay all of those things with it, look up bitpay.

It's not my job to "look up" things you want me to pay with.

If you want me to use your shitty fake coin to pay for something, it's on you to make it super easy. Or I'll just use something else.

I'm not going to write your value proposition for you. You have to do that.

Re:Demand

[Anonymous Coward]

The EU will be looking to slam some company with the GDPR just to show they mean business. Since they have a habit of not cleaning their own house, it will likely be a US company that gets the shakedown, be it Apple, Microsoft, or Google, or perhaps a smaller company that can't afford the armies of lawyers.

Where the ransomware guys will get the most bang for buck will be exactly those US companies who make their income doing business in the EU, but are small and easy targets for xenophobic EU prosecutors looking for prey, so that is where they likely will strike at.

Re:Demand

[Anonymous Coward]

Yep, the usual lies about the EU just targeting US companies. The massive fines imposed on top EU companies don't cease to exist just because they're not reported on slashdot, you know.

Bitcoin is currently priced well below that....

[shaitand]

Normally I'd point out that Bitcoin's typical cycle doesn't prevent it from dipping low, it just won't settle low, it will settle at a price higher but they are calling the current version Bitcoin Cash instead of Bitcoin and acting like the obsolete blockchain is Bitcoin so who knows what the impact will be. By acting like it is something brand new you create the illusion of something just as untested as all the other cryptocurrencies out there even though it is the same coin that has been unhackable and unstoppable from the start.

On the bright side, Bitcoin doesn't die just because the speculative market flashlight goes off, Bitcoin isn't going anywhere.

Re:Bitcoin is currently priced well below that....

[CoolCash]

7/10 troll. Bcash is just a scam coin made by bitmain to support his miner hacks so they can mine 0 kb blocks and increase their hashrate with asicboost. If Bcash really wanted to keep the traditional blockchain they wouldn't have increased the block size to 8mb and kept it at 1mb.

Re:Bitcoin is currently priced well below that....

[shaitand]

The 0 kb block bug was fixed and the entire freaking point was to increase the blocksize since Bitcoin was never intended to have one long term and it is bottlenecking the system. Greedy people who want to prevent mining efficiency gains are the whole reason we have these problems massive transactions delays ultra high fees.

There are reasons to keep mining alive, we should never even blink at making an improvement to the protocol just because it puts EXISTING miners at a disadvantage.

CNBC has fantastic track record.

[140Mandak262Jamuna]

CNBC branded the range of $9,000 to $10,000 as "a difficult one for bitcoin to break below" after its surge over $10,000 last year.

I know CNBC has fantastic track record. No matter how unlikely the event is, it would predict it just minutes after it has happened. Just minutes.

How can it be a prediction if it has already happened? The lesser mortals might want to know. So, I will come down from the heights and mingle with the commoners as Scar would like to put it.

Just seconds after an event the fantastic AI powered search will go through the archival footage of CNBC and find one talking head who predicted it. Within one minute that guy will be called. Within 3 minutes the video link would be set up. Within 5 minutes he (or sometimes she) would be on air, looking very intelligent and knowledgeable and explain how he predicted it.

People who fancy themselves to be intelligent, people who worship Scientific Method would ask stupid questions like, "on the same session when this talking head predicted it there were six other talking heads predicted the opposite. What happened to them? Why don't you call for their explanation? How many predictions by this talking head has been proven right?" etc etc ad nauseum.

To them, I say, "You are an index fund investing guy. Why are you even watching CNBC? Just chill, and get lost. CNBC owes you nothing. "

Re:CNBC has fantastic track record.

[110010001000]

Totally 100% correct. There is always "one guy" who predicts something and looks like a genius in hindsight. Some people are predicting $100 oil, some are predicting $20 oil. I just predict that Exxon is going to pay a regular dividend and remain relatively stable in price.

Re:CNBC has fantastic track record.

[nedlohs]

That was a prediction. They predicted that bitcoin would stay above $9k. They were clearly wrong, but that was still a prediction made before the event.

But yes if you make lots of conflicting predictions it's pretty easy to get a few right.

Re:CNBC has fantastic track record.

[Anonymous Coward]

Jim Kramer said Lehman Bros was just fine, Buy Buy Buy! the day before they went completely bankrupt.

Not the best place for market advice.

Re:CNBC has fantastic track record.

[Anonymous Coward]

Totally 100% correct. There is always "one guy" who predicts something and looks like a genius in hindsight. Some people are predicting $100 oil, some are predicting $20 oil. I just predict that Exxon is going to pay a regular dividend and remain relatively stable in price.

That is part of the game. New experts can make wilder predictions because if tehy are right hey are a genius and if tehy are wrong tehy are ignored but still can become a genius with a big prediction that comes true. Once they hit the genius expert level it is safer to run with teh pack because no blame is attached if all teh experts are worn but they risk losing their fame if tehy are wrong after disagreeing with the pack.

On what logic?

[chill]

CNBC branded the range of $9,000 to $10,000 as "a difficult one for bitcoin to break below" after its surge over $10,000 last year.

Based on what reasoning? There is no price support for BTC. There is no equity or guarantor behind BTC at all. Control is centralized in a small handful of "owners". They could make it go from zero to 100,000 in a day, if they decided to.

So what genius pundit decided there was a floor to the price, and how much does he get paid to make shit like that up?

Re:On what logic?

[JoeyRox]

It's probably based on technical analysis, which studies the trend of trading for an instrument to pick out the psychological buy/sell levels. For example, if the trading history indicates many people entered BTC at $10k and the price has been trading consistently below that for some time, the expectation is that when/if it reaches $10k again there will be a lot of selling pressure by some holders who want to get out to break even. That creates what's called a resistance level. The same thing happens on the other end of the price, where buyers who held out on the sidelines and missed out on a run will buy when BTC drops to a level it was at before a recent run. That creates what's called the support level.

Re: On what logic?

[AuMatar]

I other words, in pure bullshit. Technical are random patterns and luck, not market fundamentals you should rely on.

Re: On what logic?

[JoeyRox]

I'm not going to make the case BTC has any intrinsic value - IMO its intrinsic value is $0. But technical analysis is fare more than random patterns and luck, and doesn't require the underlying instrument to have intrinsic value to predict short-term movements of that instrument.

Re: On what logic?

[mysidia]

Good technical analysis is sometimes used by traders and it's more reliable than "random luck"; although there are strong trends and weak trends, and there is always uncertainty. Will it make a break below that support line or not?

Re:On what logic?

[supremebob]

These people have made their living reading stock charts and looking for patterns, and have likely convinced themselves that they've figured out how to track it's value.

I'm not sure how valid their metrics will be for something as volatile as Bitcoin, that has been known to go up 10X in value in a year and then lose 80% of that value in 2 days.

Re:On what logic?

[Type44Q]

So what genius pundit decided there was a floor to the price, and how much does he get paid to make shit like that up?

Me, the floor is zero and that's how much I got paid. Further questions?

Re: On what logic?

[Registered Coward v2]

I other words, in pure bullshit. Technical are random patterns and luck, not market fundamentals you should rely on.

My favorite story about technical trading was when a finance prof created a "chart" from coin flips and asked for analysis from a technical trading "expert. Looking at the chart the expert predicted it would go up and recommended a buy. The expert was quite upset when told it was series of random results form a coin flip. If you can't tell random from patterns then you aren't doing analysis. Is there some value in analyzing stock movements to try to understand what is driving tehm? Sure. Do charts tell yo when to buy and sell based on technical analysis? No.

Re: On what logic?

[Comrade Ogilvy]

The technical traders have a lot of technical skill and technical resources. So predictions systems that work for them 51% of the time, that could be making them enough money to pay for a third BMW, second vacation home, and a mistress, could easily be a complete disaster for you or me. A big part of any good model is the model itself telling you that it is no longer reliable and it is time to exit in a hurry. The pro traders can execute moves in seconds that you and I would take minutes to accomplish, so they are more likely to escape the full negative consequences. Usually. But remember Long Term Capital.

Re:On what logic?

[Anonymous Coward]

Considering a volatile asset with +/-25% daily swings stayed above that price for about 2 and a half months now since the previous ATH and when that branding happened, seems like a pretty fair assessment.

I made a tidy 50% scalping off that support level since the beginning of this year.

Or is there something written in invsibile ink where "difficult to break below" = "stay above forever"?

Re:On what logic?

[chill]

First, thank you for a rational reply, and not just snark.

https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2017-12-08/the-bitcoin-whales-1-000-people-who-own-40-percent-of-the-market

http://fortune.com/2017/11/25/lost-bitcoins/

I would think that with ownership so concentrated -- 1,000 accounts hold 40% of all value -- with another 30-50% estimated to be lost and out of circulation, I question a psychological model based off of so few possible sample sets. That's just crazy.

Re:On what logic?

[JoeyRox]

I would think that with ownership so concentrated -- 1,000 accounts hold 40% of all value -- with another 30-50% estimated to be lost and out of circulation, I question a psychological model based off of so few possible sample sets. That's just crazy.

The short-term price movements of a financial instrument is usually determined "at the margins", which is a fancy way of saying it's determined by the most recent (and active) set of buyers and sellers.

Re: On what logic?

[Anonymous Coward]

IIRC that story shows up in "A Random Walk Down Wall Street". Interesting book.

No you see

[Anonymous Coward]

this is GOOD for Bitcoin because...

Re:No you see

[Anonymous Coward]

... I was waiting for a chance to buy low. ... a more realistic valuation will make it more usable as an actual currency. ... the bubble was driven by irrational investors, many of whom will now move on (or in some cases commit suppuku), leaving a more rational investor base.

Under 9000

[Dwedit]

It's under nine thousaaaaaaaaannnnd!!

CNBC - always wrong

[Anonymous Coward]

Why quote CNBC? Their experts and polls STILL think Hillary won. Ha Ha Ha!

You mad, bro?

[Anonymous Coward]

You mad?

Re:You mad, bro?

[Anonymous Coward]

I mad! I mad bro!

Re: You mad, bro?

[Anonymous Coward]

I mad too!

When will the fad be over?

[Anonymous Coward]

Crytpo is 100% fear driven. The same reason why casinos make so much money. In fact, right now, you have better odds at playing a conservative Roulette game or Black Jack.

Cryto has yet to deliver anything except blockchain tech, which anyone can use and implement. You can't buy anything with it because it's so volatile, you can't convert it to cash without laundering it through other crypto, exchanges have gone bankrupt losing millions, Tether is under investigation for secretly "printing" too many tokens, and they are still a Middle Man (some cases Middle Men) for transferring currency.

The whole thing is ridiculous. The only thing propping up this dead monkey is fear (fear of missing out/fear of losing) and that investors are A) ignorant of how to invest wisely, or B) gambling. The tech is kinda cool, but it can be replicated for all sorts of other useful things.

Even here, it's crashing and people are clinging to the sinking ship hoping it will pop back up. Why? Give me one good reason why it should go back up? Really - just one good sound reason why Bitcoin, Ether, Litecoin, or any number of useless clones will rise from the dead?

Bye Felicia!

[SmokeyRobot]

This is the only time in my life I have felt compelled to use this phrase.

Editorial Note

[vtcodger]

"Bitcoin's value dipped $8,000 this morning "

In English there is a difference between the verb **to dip** and **to dip to**. The latter is probably what was intended.

"Prepositions" are important and they do not like to be ignored.

Re:Editorial Note

[smallfries]

Indeed, "to dip" means placing a wad of tobacco (or snus) in one's lip. Surely bitcoin will not be dipping 8k of snus. What a laughable error in the summary!

Re:Editorial Note

[Anonymous Coward]

Normally I get annoyed by grammar Nazi's, but in this case it truly is justified. The way it's written has a completely different meaning than what actually happened and with Bitcoin as volatile as it is, either one could be true.

Re:Editorial Note

[Anonymous Coward]

Or to put something into what is usually a fluid and then extract it.
For example, farm animals are dipped into an anti-tick bath. Also, you may dip you toe into a bath to test the water temperature.

Re:Editorial Note

[smallfries]

good bot

Buy buy buy

[Anonymous Coward]

bye

This is what we call...

[circularWaffle]

A (crypto) buyer's market. Otherwise, #HODL

What we have here....

[Maelwryth]

....is starting to look more and more like the boys at Davos got together and decided to take Bitcoin out. That being said, a lot of large banks and governments are very interested in using the blockchain for finance. They just want to control it and bitcoin was getting to big and they can't afford to let it get mainstream while they don't control it. It doesn't matter how good bitcoin is, the power that be aren't going to let their control of money get away from them. It will be interesting to see what happens with Ripple though. There have been a number of large institutions testing it. That doesn't mean they are going to use it, but it does mean they can see the value in it. Also note that Ripple isn't really all that tied to XRP. They can use other currencies to transfer as well.

Re:What we have here....

[Goragoth]

Except Bitcoin is crap. It serves no useful function whatsoever. Other cryptokens like Ethereum are far more promising. Sooner or later bitcoin will crash and vanish and none of the bandaid fixes being thrown at it will save it. And I won't trust any cryptoken that can't be mined (such as Ripple), they all reek of complete and utter scams to me.

Re: Summary

[Anonymous Coward]

buttcoin

Not bottomed yet

[rickb928]

Wait for $1k. Then watch another 24 hours.

Re:Not bottomed yet

[sexconker]

It dropped to around $7500 then shot up to $9000 in just a few hours.

Upward [Re:Bummer]

[XXongo]

Things always continue upwards.

False.

Depends on whether the initial thrust was sufficient to achieve orbital velocity.

Re:Upward [Re:Bummer]

[nitehawk214]

Things in orbit are not continuing upwards. They are, in fact, falling.

Re:Upward [Re:Bummer]

[Anonymous Coward]

The moon's drifting away

Re:Upward [Re:Bummer]

[Anonymous Coward]

So is my will to live.

Still Much Too High

[StormReaver]

Bitcoin's actual value is under a dollar. Until its price crashes down to that level, it is vastly overvalued. The word, "bubble" doesn't even come close to describing Bitcoin's current price.

Re:Still Much Too High

[Baron_Yam]

>Bitcoin's actual value is under a dollar.

That really depends on how you are measuring it. In practical terms, Bitcoin's value is exactly what you can get for it at a given moment.

It's digital casino chips for a house that doesn't exist - but as long as there's a table to sit at, there's some value, I suppose. Just remember that nobody has any obligation to cash out your chips when you want to leave.

Re:Still Much Too High

[geschbacher79]

I completely agree. If cryptocurrencies are going to take off, it seems unlikely that it will be Bitcoin that will stand the test of time and become valuable. The processing overhead, the vast amounts of electricity necessary to maintain the blockchain, the high transaction costs, the latency between sending bitcoins and the ledge actualizing that trade, etc.

I think it's likely that all of the current cryptocurrencies are worth $0.00, and if there is going to be a good one, it probably doesn't exist yet.

Re:Still Much Too High

[Anonymous Coward]

The difficulty that drives that much electricity demand is based on the network. It's only the valuation that has driven the difficulty and the computation requirements to that level.

Re:Still Much Too High

[Anonymous Coward]

Bitcoin's actual value is under a dollar. Until its price crashes down to that level, it is vastly overvalued. The word, "bubble" doesn't even come close to describing Bitcoin's current price.

Uh, I hate to point out the obvious, but when it comes to bullshit valuations, there's a fuckload more where that came from sitting in that investment vehicle we call stock market. Let's not try and pretend Bitcoin invented that shit...

Re:Still Much Too High

[Comrade Ogilvy]

Cryptocurrencies will need to survive vicious competition from other cryptocurrencies, to name one critical factor relevant to their individual survival. There are a number of reasons to suspect that Bitcoin specifically lacks the technical merit for this new phase of the game.

I am a strong believer that blockchain technology has a future. Cryptocurrencies as we know them are one simple possible use case for a blockchain technology. Whether passing around ethereal pure fiat "money" around is a really important use case is unproven.

Re:Still Much Too High

[Anonymous Coward]

That's price, not value. You can sell me a cold soda for $1 in winter, or $1 in summer after I've just run a marathon. The price is the same, the value is very different. I might be prepared to pay more than $1 in summer, but most supermarkets don't set prices that way, for example.

Re:Still Much Too High

[Anonymous Coward]

IMO bitcoin had two main problems:
1) Transaction count was limited per validation - This required people to put high transaction fees into their transactions, as the marginal cost of a transaction was high.
2) Bitcoin total count was limited - The final total amount of bitcoin was set, which meant that after some time, there would be no inherent benefit to verifying transactions(mining), and everything fell to fees.

If we wanted a nearly fee-less system, we needed the benefit of validation (mining) to continue, this would have a controllable inflationary effect.

Re:Still Much Too High

[arth1]

I am a strong believer that blockchain technology has a future. Cryptocurrencies as we know them are one simple possible use case for a blockchain technology. Whether passing around ethereal pure fiat "money" around is a really important use case is unproven.

I think blockchains have a value, but not for currency transactions. The reason is that the validation relies on third parties not present where and when the transaction takes place. The value of what is purchased with any currency will fluctuate, and adding transaction latency increases risks for the trading parties.

Bad News, BItcoin Logo - Good News, Something Else

[Anonymous Coward]

Keep it classy Slashdot.

Love how you selectively use the Bitcoin logo when there's something shitty happening in the cryptocurrency space, but US Dollars or some other crap when it is good or average.

Your bias is showing...

And away we go...

[lillgud]

Finally reality has caught up with this inflated bubble. The lack of retailers accepting bitcoin as payment method and the horrible scaling issues which rendered micro payments impossible really made BTC a horrible option for what it actually was meant to be used for. Let just hope that the next big cryptocurrency can be used for anything other then speculation. Personally I spent my tiny investment a couple of weeks ago. The main SELL signal for me was when Steam stopped accepting BTC.

Re:And away we go...

[neilo_1701D]

Finally reality has caught up with this inflated bubble.

Bit quick to celebrate. Beware the "dead cat bounce".

Re:And away we go...

[Anonymous Coward]

I've actually seen a dead cat bounce. It didn't bounce very high.

Re:And away we go...

[Anonymous Coward]

Exactly - the dead cat bounce sounds funny, but it's absolutely something to be aware of!

I apologize for the BTC price drop....

[Anonymous Coward]

...I entered the crypto world buying like crazy which is why the price dropped. It happened to me in the internet stock bubble and also the real estate bubble. Once I jump in, the market tanks no matter which market it is.

Bad AC

[Anonymous Coward]

A bias towards making money, and a bias against losing money?
Yup, Slashdot is ran by terrible monsters that should be locked up with Hitler.

Is it me, or have AC's gotten dumber?

Re:Bad News, BItcoin Logo - Good News, Something E

[barakn]

Don't be a sore loser.

Re: Bummer - omg

[Anonymous Coward]

I thought all your previous comments were sarcasm and quite funny.

But... you're for real.

*head explodes*

Re: Bummer - omg

[110010001000]

Of course I am for real. This is the Internet.

Trading Places

[PopeRatzo]

There is something in investing known as the "Bigger Idiot Theory". It states that an investment is good as long as there is a bigger idiot who will pay more for it.

It appears that BitCoin investors don't have any bigger idiots left. They win the prize.

Re:Trading Places

[Anonymous Coward]

It's called the Greater Fool Theory, you idiot. :P

Re:Trading Places

[PopeRatzo]

It's called the Greater Fool Theory [wikipedia.org], you idiot. :P

I like "Bigger Idiot Theory" better, thank you very much. Because it can be expressed as, "B.I.T", as in BITcoin. I can't believe nobody picked up on that. I'm too subtle for this world, I guess.

When the government...

[Anonymous Coward]

When the central banks or the federal government(s) offer their own, just remember, it's not to be trusted for MANY reasons, including the fact that it's still a fiat.

You've been geeking too much

[DrYak]

When your autocorrect's auto trained dictionnary fixes "USD" as "USB", you know that you've been geeking way to much.

Re:You've been geeking too much

[NicknameUnavailable]

When your autocorrect's auto trained dictionnary fixes "USD" as "USB", you know that you've been a filthy consumerist pigdog way to much.

FTFY.

Re: Trading Places - no

[Anonymous Coward]

It's called The Greater Fool Theory.

Please don't talk about things you overheard at a bus stop.

Load up on BitCoins Today!!!! NOW!

[Anonymous Coward]

Buying and selling means taking advantage of price drops!

Buy your BitCoin today and be laughing at the other guy.

I suggest mortgaging your house to buy BitCoin or if you have already, do a 2nd mortgage!

Re: Bummer - omg

[Monster_user]

It isn't completely insane advice. Buy low, sell high.

The question is this the low, or whats left of the high? If enough people buy now it could stabilize the stock, staving off panic, and potentially creating another bubble. Which means he might be right that this is the time to buy. But remember, this is a very expensive game of hot potato. I'm leaning more towards this being the end of bitcoin, or the beginning of the end. If this crash is slow enough it might actually become a currency.

Lemme explain for all the morons.

[Anonymous Coward]

An imaginary thing without any real value (Bitcoin,) was hyped by con-men so its pretend value went up. Morons bought some of it for REAL, ACTUAL, WORTH-SOMETHING MONEY, which was handed to the con-men. The con-men, when they had taken the morons for all they felt the were worth, cashed out, walking away with the real, actual, worth-something money, leaving the morons holding the bags full of imaginary, pixie dust-money, which is objectively worth nothing.

The dumb fucks who bought Bitcoin got ripped off, and deserved it, under the axiom that a fool and his money are soon parted.

Any questions?

Re: Trading Places - no

[PopeRatzo]

I believe "bigger idiot" is more apropos in this context.

Good article on crypto

[Anonymous Coward]

Here's a good article on why crypto may not be the most solid thing to invest in.

Re:Bad News, BItcoin Logo - Good News, Something E

[Anonymous Coward]

You insensitive clod, he just lost hundreds of thousands in USD after the BTC bubble.

Garlicoin

[Anonymous Coward]

This exactly why I converted all of my BTC into GARLICON. Eat it bit coin!

Bubble doesn't matter.

[Anonymous Coward]

The value of Bitcoin from December to now isn't a straight line. It goes up and down and that is perfect for the investors and day traders.

If your day job is this, you aren't losing anything.

Whoa! Major buy-in opportunity!

[mark_reh]

hah!

Re:Bad News, BItcoin Logo - Good News, Something E

[Anonymous Coward]

Lose your shirt today? Too bad, so sad.

A lot of it

[kilodelta]

Is certain Asian and southeast nations cracking down on crypto-currency. Governments in those places are cracking down because they realized they had nowhere to track payments using BitCoin, Ripple, Ethereum etc.
>
But like it or not it's coming, Ripple is interesting though. They're looking to super-cede the SWIFT banking transfer method and of course extract their pound of flesh for the doing. And they've got some big banks on board, like Santander, American Express, etc.

The FUTURE is NOW!

[Anonymous Coward]

Quick! Somebody show me where to "invest" all my monies in this miracle of digital wealth creation...

Tether value is also $0

[laughingskeptic]

Turns out Jan Ludovicus van der Velde has likely just been printing money via Tether. Why wouldn't he?

See http://thehill.com/policy/tech...

Re: Trading Places - no

[Anonymous Coward]

I upvote your BIT.

Re: Trading Places - no

[PopeRatzo]

I upvote your BIT.

Finally, somebody gets it.

New currency going up, not down

[Anonymous Coward]

Nano has gone up since this crash.

Executive Order 6102

[Anonymous Coward]

Remember when the United States banned the hoarding of gold only to turn around and inflate the dollar.

Look at what these other countries are doing.

Re: Bummer - omg

[Anonymous Coward]

Ken M? Is that you?

Re:Bad News, BItcoin Logo - Good News, Something E

[LynnwoodRooster]

Hard to spend BTC without transferring it to those other currencies... At least for most things one needs/wants in life!

Forking to BYTECOIN

[Anonymous Coward]

I think bitcoin is over. I am forking it today into a brand new cryptocurrency I am calling Bytecoin. The nice feature with this brand new fork is it is, by design, worth eight times any bitcoin already. Please join the network before it becomes to expensive to do so at a profit.

Re: Bummer - omg

[Anonymous Coward]

Creamy dumpty sat on a wall, creamy dumpty had a big fall, creamy dumpty is the dumbest poster on Slashdot. Not by absolute value per post, but in volume of low grade crap. He has mental issues, as he has posted before. He has multiple accounts, spams that bitcoin motherboard useless PoS, etc.

New fork: Bit Coin Crash!

[Jzanu]

Suicides skyrocket among over leveraged geeks who didn't understand finance, news at 11.

So easy to make money from all those suckers

[jopet]

Once everybody and their dog joins the market because they dream of getting rich it is almost trivial to make money because the process is always the same. First you heat up their dreams and make money from the rise, then you start selling off and make money from going short once the panic sets in.

Graphics cards ...

[vandamme]

.... will participate in the slump. Hooray!