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Lauri Love Ruling 'Sets Precedent' For Trying Hacking Suspects in UK (theguardian.com)
A high court ruling blocking extradition to the US of Lauri Love, a student accused of breaking into US government websites, has been welcomed by lawyers and human rights groups as a precedent for trying hacking suspects in the UK in future. From a report: The decision delivered by the lord chief justice, Lord Burnett of Maldon, is highly critical of the conditions Love would have endured in US jails, warning of the risk of suicide. Lawyers for the 33-year-old, who lives in Suffolk, had argued that Love should be tried in Britain for allegedly hacking into US government websites and that he would be at risk of killing himself if sent to the US. There was cheering and applause in court on Monday when Burnett announced his decision. He asked supporters to be quiet, saying: "This is a court, not a theatre." In his judgment, Burnett said: "It would not be oppressive to prosecute Mr Love in England for the offences alleged against him. Far from it. Much of Mr Love's argument was based on the contention that this is indeed where he should be prosecuted
The computers that were attacked were on US Soil. So the crime was committed in the US.
If something is so important that you feel the need to post it on the internet... It probably isn't that important.
Before blowing that off as outlandish, Sweden is known for keeping suspects incommunicado for weeks without even charging them, and then deporting them to other countries to face other charges. Obama had Chelsea Manning tortured with solitary confident for months - yes it's torture and it causes permanent damage after a couple weeks - and she eventually attempted suicide.
As a citizen I am scared to be in America at the moment.
Of course you are. Just like many conservatives were terrified to be in the US under Obama. That's what happens when you have a carroonish view of politics and react emotionally whenever you're not getting your way.
Why does a rich continent of 500 million people depend on a distant nation of 300 million to defend it against much poorer and weaker threats on its borders? Why do the nations of Europe outsource this most sacred of national responsibilities?
People in Europe go on ad nauseum about how America thinks it can police the world and butt its nose in every country's business. America has been hated for this especially since the Vietnam war. Well, we are doing less of that and they're whining that we are deserting everyone and becoming isolationists. Can't effing win.
America's role as the world's policemen are coming to an end. Too much money and blood being spent (and wasted) overseas and too many problems at home. All American bases on foreign soil should be closed and the troops brought home. Let the rest of the world deal with the mess for a change. For many it will be considered 'good riddance' anyway. We can defend our borders. Let others worry about theirs.
If we have to pay to have allies, then fuck them.
"Americans cannot care more for your children's future security than you do."
-- Maddog Mattis
Shutting down free speech with violence isn't fighting fascism. It IS fascism!
Sooo, if I gamble online and the server is in Elbonia, I'm not breaking any US laws? 'Cuz the U.S. government does not agree.
Only point being, international jurisdiction is about as grey as gray can be, no matter how you spell it.
The current leadership hard line approach to nearly everything with little to no thinking of any ethical ramification.
Don't be so dramatic. Every administration has taken a hard line approach when it comes to hackers. We put them in prison and throw away the key. While white collar criminals that rip off billions of dollars are out after a year, if punished at all. And murderers, actual fucking murderers, can get out sooner than a hacker.
The US government had made it clear for decades. Hackers are scum and have no rights. It's not Trump doing this, it's something baked into the culture of our legislature and executive branch. We operate a police state when it comes to computer crime and copyright infringement.
“Common sense is not so common.” — Voltaire
Europe has thrived while the US defended them from internal and external strife. Now, Europe just is going to have to face the fact that they are going to have to have armies and navies again and have to spend a chunk of their GDP so they don't get overrun. Of course, they can easily continue the Merkel Doctrine and be overrun with Syrians, and the whole European identity be wiped off the face of the globe, just like how the Taliban and Daesh have destroyed all Buddhist and other cultures in Iraq and Afghanistan, wiping that from the pages of history.
Let Europe find its own way. They have nothing but contempt for the hand that feeds them.
If you think America is "defending Europe" in any way other than just protecting its own interests, I've got a bridge to sell you. No-one takes that seriously in any way. We've had to pay the dane-geld in terms of military bases, occupied land etc.
America is interested in one thing only: America. "World's Policeman" is about as realistic as the Easter Bunny. It's a menacing bully with a massive armed force. The moment that the bases aren't profitable in terms of the US economy they'll disappear. Just about everyone in Europe would love to see them pack up and leave. The rest of the world has been dealing with your mess, from Syria to Afghanistan to Iraq for years and years now, and there's one pattern alone: An intervention is NOT for humanitarian reasons, or to bring democracy, or anything other than "It is in America's business interest to do this".
Well, i'm one of those.
What was I afraid of? The to-the-hilt PR support the left and our media gave him, and the things he got away clean on. because of it.
things like extra-judicially executing american citizens. negotiating with terrorists, paying terrorists, paying ransoms? those _Absolutely Horrify_ me. Because we CANNOT do that, there's no long term positive and the long term negatives Are Awful.
Then you look at his using our intelligence apparatus politically, from the IRS targeting his political opponents, to unmasking US intelligence collections against the trump admin. to letting the hillary clinton off the hook on DNCgate.
Top that with his fiscal policy (we'll pay the banks for bad banking decisions! we'll pay the auto industry for their bad decisions! we'll pump Trillions of dollars out of the fed into the Top of the economy instead of the bottom!) And his political policies (Giving up US sovereignty, attempting to give foreign courts and governments power inside our borders) And his social policies (undermining faith in our police and military, working to weaken them. landing on the wrong side of every last media frenzy where the headline contained the words 'black' and 'white' )
Yeah. Scared Shitless.
The cheeto isn't the second coming of jesus christ, but just look at how hard the media is fighting to make him the antichrist. That should terrify you, if nothing else does.
That's what happens when you have a carroonish view of politics
I assume you meant cartoonish. I view of US politics is cartoonish right now, because the people at the top are cartoonish. I don't know what planet you're living on where what's happening in the US is *not* cartoonish.
I don't respond to AC's.
In the past, physical presence was needed to commit a crime (e.g. robbery). This had the natural result of criminals being caught in the jurisdiction in which they committed the crime. Extradition was only needed for criminals who fled the country after the crime.
The Internet changes all that. Now it's possible to reside in one jurisdiction (country), while committing a crime in another. The legal system is just coming to grips with this. c.f. the U.S. trying to get Microsoft's server data that's stored outside the country, France trying to apply its laws to the rest of the world, Kim Dotcom arrested in New Zealand at the behest of the U.S., etc.
Extradition agreements weren't really set up for suspects who fled to another country, not for this type of remote crime. So from this point on we'll be making up new stuff as we go along. It'll probably be a few more decades before it all gets settled down. If multiple judges rule as this judge has (and the same happens when some American kid hacks UK computers), I expect the U.S. and UK will negotiate new extradition treaties which specifically cover this type of case, thereby limiting the leeway the judge had in this particular case.
Oh please. The US (nearly all (R) and a good percent of (D)) has zero interest in becoming less involved in world affairs. We love wars and won't stop. Trump is about to start another one. All that whining about providing defense for Europe is just extortion. We're just as bad as ever at playing world police, anyone who thinks we're actually doing less of that or becoming isolationists in military matters is outright deluded.
He's half Finnish. Lauri is a common male name there.
It's not profitable at all for America to occupy Europe. In fact, it is hugely expensive. Europeans refuse to pay for their own defense and reacted quite angrily when Trump presented them with a bill for failing to reach their (quite low) 2% spending minimum.
Funny that when not so long ago when the US president questioned the sustainability and fairness of the NATO alliance, all of a sudden NATO is important for Europe's defense. All of a sudden the Europeans who never gave the US any credit for its disproportionate contributions think it's preposterous and a selfish betrayal to criticize the nature of the alliance. Europe is such a joke.
Europe (and the world) is vastly different than it was in 1949. Surely you don't mean to imply that the world's largest trading block with 500 million people and the highest GDP can't defend itself?
Shutting down free speech with violence isn't fighting fascism. It IS fascism!
The US Court system is the fairest one one the world.
HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA!!!
LOL - wait, you WERE *joking*, right? RIGHT?
You realize that the US incarcerates more people PER CAPITA, than ANY *OTHER* country - on the whole planet.
The only way you can reconcile that fact with your statement is if you accept that USians are at least - at *LEAST* - twice as criminal as any other population/culture in the world.
Why does a rich continent of 500 million people depend on a distant nation of 300 million to defend it against much poorer and weaker threats on its borders?
Uh, they DON'T. Full stop.
America's role as the world's policemen are coming to an end.
GOOD! Go the fuck home and leave the rest of the world alone for once. FFS.
Uh, hate to break it to you, but Europe depends utterly on the Americans to keep Putin's panzers out of Paris.
GOOD! Go the fuck home and leave the rest of the world alone for once. FFS.
Statements like that are exactly the kind of shitty, smug European attitude that results in Americans questioning the usefulness of NATO. Not only are you ungrateful, you go in the opposite direction and have a derisive view of the US despite how much you depend on it. Also what you just said has no grounding in reality, at all. You can't even base your hateful attitude on facts.
Only 2.7% of European troops are trained and equipped to a sufficient degree to be deployed in combat.
The Germans have literally had to use broomsticks in place of machine guns and only 8 of their 109 Eurofighters are operational.
All of the military forces of the entire EU combined only have 10% of the capability that the US military possesses. Russia is way closer to the US in military capability than the EU is.
In general, Europe depends on the US for defense and to protect their interests
NATO "allies" flat-out refuse to pay their fair share for their own defense. Mr Schulz said: "Of course, we are a strong and reliable Nato member. However, I'm not of the opinion that Nato member states have agreed to achieve this goal of spending two per cent of their GDP for defence. This would mean a substantial financial burden for Germany."
Shutting down free speech with violence isn't fighting fascism. It IS fascism!
The US Court system is the fairest one one the world.
Actually, the World Justice Project collects data on the rule of law world wide, and provides a web interface in which you can easily rank countries by whatever metric you are interested in.
For example, by the fairness of the criminal court system, the top five countries in order are Finland, Norway, Denmark, Sweden, and Singapore. The US is in eighteenth place. The factors taken into account include: impartiality, due process protections, timely trials, and recidivism rates.
For civil cases, the Netherlands takes top place, with US placing 25th. Factors include affordability of access to civil justice, timeliness, impartiality, effective enforcement of judgments, and absence of political interference.
In general the US is nowhere near the top in these rule-of-law factors, but it's far from a dystopia; in general it's above average, keeping company with countries like France, Spain, and South Korea. It's the Nordic countries that score the best in most categories, with Singapore scoring high in measures of efficiency, security, regulatory enforcement and non-corruption but posting mediocre scores in government transparency, constraints on government, and individual rights.
Post may contain irony: discontinue use if experiencing mood swings, nausea or elevated blood pressure.
Sure: The patriarchy.