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China To Bar People With Bad 'Social Credit' From Planes, Trains (reuters.com)
China says it will begin applying its so-called social credit system to flights and trains and stop people who have committed misdeeds from taking such transport for up to a year. From a report: People who would be put on the restricted lists included those found to have committed acts like spreading false information about terrorism and causing trouble on flights, as well as those who used expired tickets or smoked on trains, according to two statements issued on the National Development and Reform Commission's website on Friday. Those found to have committed financial wrongdoings, such as employers who failed to pay social insurance or people who have failed to pay fines, would also face these restrictions, said the statements which were dated March 2. It added that the rules would come into effect on May 1.
Video from 2015 on it:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lHcTKWiZ8sI
Very chilling.
Dunno how I feel about the law over all, like a lot of things in China it seems pretty oppressive and overly broad. But it sounds good to punish employers that try to skirt stuff like social insurance. Employers should take care of their employees, might make labor conditions a little less crappy.
In a bit of shameless internet panhandling, I accept Litecoin Donations at Lbd2oH9QsthD1GfuUXPyka12YxvWJYnBVf
So no more Politicians on trains and planes? Cool.
And people wonder why the TSA wants to search passengers smart phones.
So it begins.
The trouble with banning people who haven't paid a fine from trains is that preventing them from getting to their job certainly isn't going to help them pay off the fine any faster.
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I tagged this article "nosedive" as soon as I saw the title. Imagine if you prevented people who spread false information about terrorism from riding trains or planes in the US? An easy 1/3rd of the country would be banned immediately. And then they'd say it's a tactic to cover up the Bowling Green massacre or hide Obama's true origins.
"When information is power, privacy is freedom" - Jah-Wren Ryel
Wow....Social Credit that you would have to keep track of in order to live. That's simply horrific.
They're not even slightly communist anymore. They're very capitalist but also very authoritarian. And they've only recently become a dictatorship (again), previously they were a pseudo-democratic oligarchy.
"When information is power, privacy is freedom" - Jah-Wren Ryel
The Nazis had pieces of flair that they made the Jews wear
So no more Politicians on trains and planes? Cool.
... then they can justify the cost of charter flights, billed directly to the tax payers.
ELOI, ELOI, LAMA SABACHTHANI!?
They're not even slightly communist anymore. They're very capitalist but also very authoritarian. And they've only recently become a dictatorship (again), previously they were a pseudo-democratic oligarchy.
Fascism? Like the only thing remotely socialist about National Socialism was when they reappropriated private properties to inner party members.
ELOI, ELOI, LAMA SABACHTHANI!?
Actually, I think this is a pretty decent idea. The trouble is with what they would apply it to. In China, I could see them applying it to people who complain about Emperor Xi. And that would be bad in my opinion.
If this were to go into effect in North America, I would think that stupid little twat who wouldn't take her feet off the seats of that train would have been afforded a more suitable punishment than beating her ass (although I think these whiny people who don't think they should show some personal responsibility could do with a bit of that now and then). You put your feet on the seats on a train and don't put them down when asked by law enforcement, then you don't get to ride on the trains anymore.
Other possible social crimes: Carry a tiki-torch in a march, banned from public transportation. Smash the windows of a Starbucks because you don't like, whatever the fuck antifa people don't like, banned (actually kicked in the crotch, then banned). Good starting point. Then punishment could be escalated from there to: no bad tattoos for you; no mullets allowed, no dreadlocks; etc.
-- I ignore anonymous replies to my comments and postings.
If you break the rules you should be punished. But this is not really punishing through clearly defined laws and due process with the right to appeal. This is doling out demerit points that are in themselves meaningless (thus not contestable), but now appear to add up to some serious consequences. The scary part is that the government is lumping in criminal behaviour, misdemeanors, and "socially undesirable" behaviour all in one points system, which basically means they get to tell you what being a virtuous person means, and get to enforce those rules.
Also, the punishment should fit the crime. Being banned from trains and planes is a fitting punishment for someone who repeatedly smokes on a non smoking train, or harasses the flight attendants. It is not appropriate for not paying your parking tickets.
If construction was anything like programming, an incorrectly fitted lock would bring down the entire building...
Yeah, losing the right to travel for wrong-think.
Don't want people wrong-thinking against the corporate/government alliance.
The laborers of course...
What else can be said. Obedience or your life is hell. And we walked, ran, danced into the flames.
Looks like Xi Jinping is a fan of Black mirror...
Try it! Library of Babel
What's communist about them other than the name of their party? Nothing. If Trump renamed the Republicans to the Liberal party this evening, they would also not be liberal.
"When information is power, privacy is freedom" - Jah-Wren Ryel
The exact same system applies in USA :
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/...
aaaaaaa
http://www.independent.co.uk/n...
You can say that's different, but I'd argue it's just a little farther up the slippery slope.
Do you have ESP?
Honestly, the examples they give don't sound all that bad at first
For "false information about terrorism", read "complaining about the government in any way". For "Can't ride the train if you owe a fine", read "debtor's prison".
Socialism: a lie told by totalitarians and believed by fools.
CEOs in China are not punished because their companies break the law. Don't be silly. When a CEO fails to kowtow to the Communist overlords, or to immediately comply wit some crazy whim of someone in political power, then the government finds some law the company is breaking (or invents one) so that he can be publicly punished. But it's never about the stated offense, and you never hear the real offense.
Socialism: a lie told by totalitarians and believed by fools.
Officially every citizen of China has the right to petition their government. In practice it has problems, but in theory it is a way to handle grievances and appeals.
A system where a certain count of offenses results in punishment? I can't think of anything like that in the US, well except the three-strikes system. Court orders that a particular person no longer work in the banking industry in light of their specific fraud conviction.
Criminal behavior and socially undesirable behavior has always been a continuum. We don't like it when people kill or steal because we cannot hold together a functioning society if we allow it. We also have to do things like give people speeding tickets. Not because speeding is a crime (it's usually a civil infraction) but to reduce an undesirable behavior.
Not paying you parking tickets seems pretty serious to me. Until recently things like unpaid tickets would significantly impact your credit score. It's hard to hold China to the same system when they don't have a credit scoring system quite like the US. (nor is a credit rating particularly valuable to most Chinese)
“Common sense is not so common.” — Voltaire
If you are accused of breaking the law you should have the right to confront your accuser in an open court.
Try that when you have a ticket from a red light camera. In many states you have no chance.
Also, I'm curious why you assume citizens in China don't get to do this? A right to petition is baked in the PRC's Constitution. And recently citizens have had their rights extended to allow them to sue the government too.
If you aren't accused of breaking the law you should not have to live your life according to the "social rules" made up by [REDACTED]
But it is a law. That's how society works, someone decides some behavior is bad, and devises a law for it, and then you are punished if you do it.
Do you think jaywalking or open container laws make sense to most people outside of the US? They also think we live by a bunch of arbitrary social rules.
“Common sense is not so common.” — Voltaire
Bring it on keyboard jockey.
“Common sense is not so common.” — Voltaire
Things like this just give our own politicians (would-be dictators all) evil ideas.
What I can't believe is that some of you actually think it's a good idea.
in a secular society.
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You're right, but that's not communism, that's authoritarianism - a practically universal feature of communist countries in the real world, but no more an element of communism than flies are an element of a corpse. There have been small hippie communes that were communist but not authoritarian.
There are also authoritarian capitalist countries that would never be accused of communism - start a peaceful protest in Singapore without government permission and see how long you stay out of jail.
"When information is power, privacy is freedom" - Jah-Wren Ryel
Because rich people can pay fines.
So making it a ban on fast travel means it really really hurts
-- Tigger warning: This post may contain tiggers! --
It's just more oppression, from one of the worlds leading producers of oppression. They're creating their own reality, and writing their own narrative of people within that false, arbitrary reality.
<sarcasm>Absolutely no way this could be used for any corrupt purposes, though, like ruining the lives of anyone that criticizes the government as a whole, or for the personal vendetta of any government officials, no siree bob!</sarcasm>
I seriously wonder how much of this shit the Chinese people will put up with before there's a Civil War over it. Humans don't usually put up with being shit on forever, and the Chinese people have been getting shit on by their government for a long time now.
But at least we would know WHERE they are....
It's what ALL communist government always turn into.
It is very stable. It took about 1000 years of oppression, decay and degeneration of the ruling class for it to break down. How long it will last in the current age when the ruling elites and their henchmen could use face recognition tech and completely track every activity of every citizen?
sed -e 's/Chuck Norris/Rajnikant/g' joke > fact
The move is in line with President’s Xi Jinping’s plan to construct a social credit system based on the principle of “once untrustworthy, always restricted”.
in otherwords he just invented the fabled "This goes on your permanent record, young man".
This can be used to coerce the Rich who aren't loyal enough. You are corecing them not through economic measures, or curtailing their off shored wealth but by physically limiting them in a way they cannot escape by their wealth. And if they want to leave the country then it can easily be applied to their extended family as well so there's no escape.
Some drink at the fountain of knowledge. Others just gargle.
And in sane states, red light cameras are banned precisely because they don't allow you to confront your accuser in court.
It's certainly the choice of those states to do so, for whatever reasons they choose to assert. But it's not[ currently] a Constitutional issue.
“Common sense is not so common.” — Voltaire
Because what they really want to do is ban political dissidents from travelling...a fine system would not enable that.
I seriously wonder how much of this shit the Chinese people will put up with before there's a Civil War over it.
There was a civil war already. People banded together to end the rule of warlords (little military dictatorships). Then those people didn't agree on what kind of government to have so Nationalists and Communists duked it out for decades, with multiple atrocities and millions dead.
As long as people are fed and you can get entertainment in the form of television or smartphones, I doubt there is going to be a civil war over the injustices done against the people. Much like how it is in the US.
“Common sense is not so common.” — Voltaire
Not paying you parking tickets seems pretty serious to me.
It isn't. The real crime is not planning for enough parking (or public transportation or whatever) so that you don't have to be writing parking tickets. And if you ban people from using transportation that they need to get to work, then you'll only create crime. This only makes sense if they want to create crime, for example for the purpose of legitimizing murdering their citizens for their internal organs.
"You're right," Fisheye says. "I should have set it on 'whip' or 'chop.'"
My main concern is that the Chinese government might use this as low-level punishment (lower than imprisonment) for political crimes. For example, punishment for talking about the heroic "tank man" in Tiananmen Square on June 5, 1989.
Or rolling your eyes at easy questions asked by a reporter.
By the end of the day, Liang Xiangyi's name had been censored on China's largest search engines, the video deleted from Chinese websites and millions of Chinese netizens were suddenly worried about what would become of their newfound hero.
But it is a law. That's how society works, someone decides some behavior is bad, and devises a law for it, and then you are punished if you do it.
You mean, that's how society fails. Someone decides that some behavior is bad, and then they devise an excessive law for it, and then they ruin your life because it's their job and if they don't, someone will ruin their life.
"You're right," Fisheye says. "I should have set it on 'whip' or 'chop.'"
It's what ALL communist government always turn into.
Nobody knows if that's true, because nobody has ever had a communist system larger than... well, a commune. Every so-called communist government in history has been a cynical ploy to control the masses and pacify them with fairy tales about worker's rights.
"You're right," Fisheye says. "I should have set it on 'whip' or 'chop.'"
Imagine if you prevented people who spread false information about terrorism from riding trains or planes in the US?
"False" being whatever the current administration says is false.
You mean "turned them into"
Table-ized A.I.
You mean, that's how society fails. Someone decides that some behavior is bad, and then they devise an excessive law for it, and then they ruin your life because it's their job and if they don't, someone will ruin their life.
"Someone", a committee, a duly elected representative, a pure democracy of your peers. These are mechanism for defining laws, and the basis of the social contract. If the laws are unjust, society breaks down. A parody of society can be rigged together with the use of force against people, as we have seen throughout history. But eventually some of the enforcers defect, control slips from the grasp of the dictatorship, and change occurs. Because societies built on injustice and use of force against the general populace are not stable long term. (in my opinion)
Not being able to fly or use a train for a year might ruin your life, I think it's unlikely to but it *might*. And it might be a just punishment, or it might be unjustly applied to the innocent, we don't know. Hypothetically let's say China only ever punishes people who are guilty (ha! I know). If that were true, then would you have a problem with it? "Ruining" a person's life over something they did wrong. Is that different than taking a driver's license away from a drunk driver. Or freezing bank accounts of an embezzler? Or towing an illegally parked car?
“Common sense is not so common.” — Voltaire
Looking at your post history you're quite the snide little shit.
“Common sense is not so common.” — Voltaire
Ah so it's like our US no fly list for "terrorists", or rather people with names similar to aliases used by terrorists (including inactive ones)
“Common sense is not so common.” — Voltaire
"Can't you just make some bot accounts and open any locked door because then you'd be the most trusted person?"
As far as I know, no. They take a specific number of points off your starting score per type of infraction.
There have been small hippie communes that were communist but not authoritarian.
How many of these hippie communes survived for long once the population surpassed 150, the size of one monkeysphere?
papers and passport to travel COMRADE.
Yea, I'm really looking forward to renewing my driver's license into a REAL ID card.
Just so I have permission to travel within the borders of my own country (USA).
“Common sense is not so common.” — Voltaire
Xi Jinping wants people to be obedient. But he cannot throw everyone that makes a careless remark in jail, and he does not want to because it will upset too many people.
So he introduces a system of social credit. It is not just about trains, a high credit is very good for getting jobs, promotions etc. A low credit can have you punished by trains, as a warning that you are on you way to worse things if you do not behave.
Once everyone is focused on their social credit, self censorship will be very strong. There is a small upside -- nobody will smoke on trains either.
OTOH The US Red Light Camera system is purely about making money. Quite different.
The TSA No Fly List is more similar. I would not go about criticizing the TSA too publicly. No other western country would tolerate such extra judicial punishments. But at the end of the day it is more about incompetence than malice.
You know, that concept that if you did your time, or improved, you are forgiven and get another chance ... because we are humans, and not monsters!
That last bastion before "everybody is guilty of something all the time, and hence a permanently indebted slave".
We already have enough laws that you and me and everyone is always harassable for something. We just aren't actually harassing everyone all the time. This would change that.
Oh and yeah, it is an old hat. The churches invented it, thousands of years ago, and called it "sinning".
They went the whole nine yards straight away too, by making the most basic human thing a crime/"sin": Sex.
I wonder when China (or us) will ban eating (anything but vanilla paste, in private, after getting a government license) ... or sleeping ... breathing ... Oh, the churched already did washing. What else? ...
Worth mentioning that even the Soviet Union didn't claim to be communist. That was their true goal, but they were aware they hadn't achieved it yet. Ultimately they couldn't find a leader with enough vision to take them all the way (if that is even possible) and they gave up on the project.
"First they came for the slanderers and i said nothing."
Diamond Age?
No - that's what every communist dreamer says after the government fails - like Venzuela
2000 - true communism
2004 - true communism
2006 - true communism
2008 - mostly true communism
2010 - kinda true communism
2012 - evil capitalist pig dogs trying to stop true communism
2014 - evil capitalist pig dogs have made us give up communism temporarily
2016 - TRUMP made communism fail
2018 - Never was true communism and we never claimed that.
Ah so it's like our US no fly list for "terrorists", or rather people with names similar to aliases used by terrorists (including inactive ones)
Wish I had mod points to mod this up.
Debate is a form of harassment. Do not question my truth.
There goes China.
Oh, it'll take a while, but this, Xi Jinping's newly-minted dictatorship and other crackdowns make it quite clear that China is beginning a fast slide into 1984-land. Their screw-tightening will provoke resistance from the large, recently-created middle class, which will in turn provoke more oppression, and the need for tighter central control of everything -- including the economy. Bye, bye capitalism and the growth that it brings. I'm guessing the new leaders are smart enough not to eviscerate their country with another Great Leap Forward, but they'll still have to gut the free market economy that has been driving such huge growth.
Assuming we can survive Trump, maintain the rule of law and avoid descdending into a new patrimonialization, this means the US will soon be the world's sole superpower again (no, Putin's kleptocracy is no competition. Unless we emulate it, which is exactly what Trump would like, but I don't think there's a chance of it happening).
The flip side is that we really need China to continue their aggressive response to climate change, which they'll forget all about if they end up spending all their time on suppressing dissidents.
Note to ACs: I usually delete AC replies without reading them. If you want to talk to me, log in.
Anyone watched the anime psycho pass?
Seriously, if I'm going to be disallowed access to things in society due to my personality, I'm going to have a pretty bad reaction.
> Also, the punishment should fit the crime. Being banned from trains and planes is a fitting punishment for someone who repeatedly smokes on a non smoking train, or harasses the flight attendants. It is not appropriate for not paying your parking tickets.
Nothing in China is about punishment, all is about control and making people realize that obedience and submission is the way to live their life.
In 1995, French philosopher Giles Deleuze, building on the work of Foucault, perfectly explained what is going on here in his 3-page text "Postscript on societies of control". We are moving from societies of discipline to societies of control, he explains.
Discipline
- A system punishes people once they break the rules (law), but not before.
- Transparent and accountable, at least in current western societies.
- Ultimately builds on the governments monopoly of power. You play by the rules because the government has tanks.
- Expensive.
Control
- Permanent measuring and nudging, whether you are guilty or innocent.
- Increasingly hidden in datacenters and proprietary algorithms.
- Weaponizes social control by making social interactions measurable (social media), and thus designable. You play by the rules because you want to stay included in society.
- Cheap, as you are basically crowdsourcing control to the people, who themselves apply the pressure to each other.
All societies have both systems. But the social control system used to be informal and difficult to 'design' (although the Stasi already had a working beta version). That has changed with the rise of the internet, which has allowed us to cheaply measure and record everything. Couple that with the rise of psychological knowledge (nudging, etc), and you have a pretty interesting substrate.
The Chinese seem to have read Foucault and Deleuze's work better than we in the west did. At least they know that they're building..
Here in the west this could be a useful narrative to steer clear of this possible future:
https://www.socialcooling.com/
Deleuze's text:
https://cidadeinseguranca.file...
The real crime is not planning for enough parking
Meanwhile a friend of mine in California is always sharing posts from his friends and people he likes about how they need to destroy 50+% of the roads and also parking lots, parking decks, etc and just build more bike lanes and make everyone use bikes or rideshare. "This will revolutionize and fix all traffic issues!"
2-3 years ago I would've said yes. But since Trump's election, I think the USA's democracy deserves more credit. If there were any shadowy cabals pulling the strings behind US elections, they would never have allowed a dangerous moron like Trump to occupy the presidency. The fact that someone who is so corrosive to every aspect of the country's wellbeing can make his way into office and remain there for so long is a good indicator of a functioning democracy.
"When information is power, privacy is freedom" - Jah-Wren Ryel
For a fascinating treatise on how far this sort of thing can be taken, see the (now-ancient) Sci-fi novel "The Last Spaceship", by the pseudonymous Murray Leinster. It is available from Amazon as an eBook. One is exposed to many ways that authoritarian regimes can diminish the lives of their citizens.
"bread and circuses"
In the PRC practicing Qigong gets you imprisoned and your organs harvested, so "break the rules" and "punished" are very much relative and in context.