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Canada Facing 'Brain Drain' As Young Tech Talent Leaves For Silicon Valley (theglobeandmail.com)

An anonymous reader quotes a report from The Globe and Mail: Canada's best and brightest computer engineering graduates are leaving for jobs in Silicon Valley at alarmingly high rates, fueling a worse "brain drain" than the mass exodus by Canadian doctors two decades ago, according to a new study. The study, led by Zachary Spicer, a senior associate with the Munk School of Global Affairs' Innovation Policy Lab at University of Toronto, found one-in-four recent science, technology, engineering and math (STEM) graduates from three of the country's top universities -- University of Waterloo, University of British Columbia and U of T -- were working outside Canada. The numbers were higher for graduates of computer engineering and computer science (30 percent), engineering science (27 percent) and software engineering, where two out three graduates were working outside Canada, mostly in the United States. Nearly 44 percent of those working abroad were employed as software engineers, with Microsoft, Google, Facebook and Amazon listed as top employers.

326 comments

  1. Damn right by 50000BTU_barbecue · · Score: 4, Informative

    If were young again, I would leave Montreal as if it were a medieval plague city.

    Sky high taxes, dirty, gray downtown, corruption everywhere, low wages, endless regulations, terrible weather.

    Young people! You are free! Enjoy what you can.

    --
    Mostly random stuff.
    1. Re:Damn right by 110010001000 · · Score: 4, Funny

      Would you go to Silicon Valley though? You could go to Toronto instead.

    2. Re:Damn right by ceoyoyo · · Score: 2

      Hey, a Montrealer!

      The problem with Montreal is that when you're young you're willing to ignore all that stuff because people like to go out and party a lot and everyone insists that it's the greatest city on the planet. By the time most people realize there's a downside, they're so far behind everyone else that they can't leave.

    3. Re: Damn right by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 4, Funny

      Like a parasite leaving the heart for the rectum.

    4. Re: Damn right by Bradmont · · Score: 1

      Man I wish I had mod points right now...

    5. Re:Damn right by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 2, Insightful

      Are you sure you're not talking about Canada in general? I for one am sick and tired of the high taxes (especially income tax) - maybe a lot of people have already reached their limit and are leaving. After all, tech is a highly mobile job.

    6. Re: Damn right by 110010001000 · · Score: 2

      OK, what about Vancouver? It is lovely I have heard.

    7. Re:Damn right by 50000BTU_barbecue · · Score: 1

      Turanno is definitely looking good these days. I have a few leads over there but I am a purple-scaled horned dinosaur as I work in hardware. I'm not young, I'm not pretty, and I have nothing but scorn for what passes for "software" these days.

      I don't care about AI, 3D printing, social media, or any of the dozens of increasingly incomprehensible and dubious phone-based "services" plagued with ads and no privacy.

      If I could, I'd work on 60GHz systems at work and use a AM radio and CB at home. In other words, I don't mind making money working on the latest devices, but not actually use any of them personally.

      --
      Mostly random stuff.
    8. Re: Damn right by 50000BTU_barbecue · · Score: 1

      Well that made my morning! Somehow, your line reminded me of the movie "The Bothersome Man".

      The scene were he's digging in the basement.

      --
      Mostly random stuff.
    9. Re:Damn right by 110010001000 · · Score: 1

      It must be sad to live in such an oppressive country you aren't allowed to use an AM radio and CB at home. Canadians should rise up!

    10. Re:Damn right by 50000BTU_barbecue · · Score: 4, Interesting

      Yeah, that describes it quite well.

      " everyone insists that it's the greatest city on the planet."

      I think the reason for this is quite simple: when you're young, you're surrounded by young people. Pretty much anywhere is the greatest place to be when you're surrounded and accepted by young people. (Barring war and disasters)

      I experienced this in the 1990s, I was a 20-something doing equipment installations in factories in Poland and the Czech Republic. In my spare time I went out and was immediately welcomed and accepted by the local young people and I had a blast.

      Now I'm in my 40s and life is now a mix between being invisible or viewed with suspicion. It's like humans have the life cycle of a barnacle. A few years floating around with millions of baby barnacles, then decades being attached to a house and marriage, and only seeing the 4 or 5 nearest barnacles while the ocean passes you by.

      --
      Mostly random stuff.
    11. Re:Damn right by 50000BTU_barbecue · · Score: 3, Interesting

      "Are you sure you're not talking about Canada in general?"

      I haven't lived anywhere else in Canada, so I don't know.

      "After all, tech is a highly mobile job."

      It sure is, and from the employer's point of view this is great advantage, whereas as the employee, you have to physically move...

      You must be young because selling a house and moving a family is not trivial. What do you do once you're in SV and somehow something better pops up yet somewhere else?

      --
      Mostly random stuff.
    12. Re: Damn right by alvinrod · · Score: 4, Informative

      VC is a lovely city for sure, but itâ(TM)s getting to be just as expensive as SV. A lot of property is being bought up by Chinese investors for tax purposes so the costs are out of control and the demand hasnâ(TM)t changed because many of those properties go unused.

      But if I were going to live in Canada, it would definitely be somewhere in BC. Lots of beautiful country up there.

    13. Re: Damn right by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Is anyone else picturing a doctor with a banan and a hammer, waiting for the Ruby on Rails developer to stick his head out of the Starbucks and say "hey, where the hell is my cookie!!!"

      The shaggy dog story is at http://www.funny.com/funny?fn=...

    14. Re: Damn right by thundercattt · · Score: 1

      Lol better change your view. I live in Montreal and think it's a fantastic city. Try living in a shit hole like Toronto, Montreal is cheap compared to Vancouver.

    15. Re: Damn right by thundercattt · · Score: 1

      Vancouver has become poor man's Seattle. Can't afford Seattle,you live in Vancouver.

    16. Re: Damn right by thundercattt · · Score: 1

      Montreal is cheap vs the rest of Canada.

    17. Re:Damn right by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      That's the problem with many other large cities. The corruption allowed dirty gray concrete buildings to be built in the first place - back in the 1970's concrete was going to be the building material of the future. "Wads of cash in brown paper envelopes being trousered" is one of the many phrases used. The large size means a sizeable unskilled/unemployed population leading to low wages and sky high taxes. Regulations are needed to ensure wages and rental prices match as employers and property owners will cut corners wherever they can.

    18. Re:Damn right by denisbergeron · · Score: 1

      As a Montreal's solution architect, I can't contradict you. I just leave a job because of corruption and incompetence, I'm so tired of this shit everywhere here. I just over 50, and I can't get over it anymore. people try to avoid working by arguing over everything. Sucking couillard is the new orange!

      --
      Ceci n'est pas une Signature !
    19. Re:Damn right by b0s0z0ku · · Score: 1

      Montreal has relatively cheap housing, interesting people, good universities (McGill), and most importantly, doesn't only speak English. It's nice to be away from Anglophone paranoia and media when I visit there.

    20. Re: Damn right by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1

      More like the other way around. Seattle is like a poor man's Vancouver. Cheap gas and houses but crime out of control

    21. Re: Damn right by 50000BTU_barbecue · · Score: 1

      How old are you? Do you own or rent?
      What parts of it are fantastic that you think don't exist anywhere else?
      What is shitty about Toronto?
      What does Montreal being cheap have to do with not finding properly paid jobs?

      --
      Mostly random stuff.
    22. Re: Damn right by Type44Q · · Score: 2

      Cucks or Canucks; I simply can't decide...

    23. Re: Damn right by Mashiki · · Score: 4, Interesting

      Vancouver is getting as bad as San Fran is, especially with the homelessness and rampant public drug use. It was bad 10 years ago, it's gone downhill since then. Seriously, I fully get why young Canadians are trying to GTFO from Canada. The taxes are high but you see no return. Whether it's at the city, provincial, or federal level. The government(federal and many provincial governments) would rather throw money at illegals entering the country then help people who desperately need help. A person can be disabled, qualify for disability, and not get anything at all. No financial help, no training, no tax deferments. The number of disabled who now live full-time and dependent on their parents has gone through the roof. Workers Comp(WSIB) in the most populated province in Canada(Ontario) almost never pays out to workers who are injured on the job(94% refusal rate), so good luck if you get a life changing injury. If you need low income housing, in most places the wait is between 4-10 years. Healthcare quality is decreasing in nearly every province. It's becoming a rampant politically correct mess, where people fear speaking out on issues because we have a kangaroo court system that can fine you into oblivion and leave you financially ruined so you can't take it through the normal courts to try and clear it up. The current government is pushing anti-egalitarian laws, best example is their desire to modify the law on sexual assault so exculpatory evidence can't be used.

      Energy prices are through the roof, but wages are stagnant. Gasoline, NG, electricity are massively expensive. Housing prices are touching the moon, and wages are stagnant. $500k for a 40 year old house, in areas where the media income is $41k, $1.8m house prices in $70k median income. Provincial governments are doing stupid things like trying to ban NG and oil for heating and forcing people to use electricity only. Again in Canada's most populous province(Ontario), the government had to ban winter disconnection of electricity for fear of people freezing to death. Roughly 1:5 people are 3 months or more behind on their electricity bills.

      Many provincial governments(Liberal and NDP) are pushing "service industry" policies for jobs, and trying to push out manufacturing jobs. Ontario again, a great example. The same province, pushed $15/h minimum wage and in the first fiscal quarter after it was implemented the economy lost nearly 50k PT jobs, the high min. wage has basically stalled the economy.

      Yep, I full get why they want to GTFO. And I live in Ontario.

      --
      Om, nomnomnom...
    24. Re: Damn right by b0s0z0ku · · Score: 0, Flamebait

      The US justice system is no cakewalk either - people are often jailed on suspicion of a crime and kept in jail until they agree to a plea bargain. And the US has the death penalty, which normal countries like Canada, Australia, and the UK dumped in the 1960s.

    25. Re:Damn right by b0s0z0ku · · Score: 1

      Get a job where you can be surrounded by 20-somethings into your 30s and 40s. e.g. teaching, some forms of engineering, research, etc.

    26. Re:Damn right by b0s0z0ku · · Score: 1

      Assuming your spouse can find a job or doesn't need/want to work...

      Rent out your home. Furnished.
      Rent something where you're going. Furnished.
      Send your kids to the local public school.
      If you can't take your car, buy something where you're going for $5000, used.

      Many people over-think this kind of thing, and are far too attached to personal possessions.

    27. Re: Damn right by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      If Toronto is the rectum of Canada, Winnipeg must be its frozen sphincter.

    28. Re: Damn right by Mashiki · · Score: 3, Insightful

      The difference is that when you have a kangaroo court that can fine you into oblivion for making factual statements, and directly quoting someone. You have a serious problem in your apparent democracy. These aren't criminal courts, they're "human rights" courts and it's enough that a person can ruin your life because "they feel offended by what you say." They're also insanely biased, a recent example where a muslim would only rent to muslims was perfectly okay. But a christian only renting to christians wasn't allowed and considered a HRC violation.

      Oh and I shouldn't forget, in Canada we have a parallel criminal sentencing system if you're native/indigenous. Read gladue if you want to see that clusterfuck. Despite that it was to be "only minor crimes" there's been plenty of instances where rapists, attempted murder, and so on with the person having a laundry list of crimes was simply given a slap on the wrist.

      --
      Om, nomnomnom...
    29. Re: Damn right by JMJimmy · · Score: 4, Insightful

      The 50k job loss was expected. It's a short term decline that happens with every minimum wage increase which is inevitably recovered within about a year. 100% of the increase at the bottom end is spent because it's still impossible for the poor to save money, they just end up with slightly more to spend on the things they need. Thus, in the long term it grows the economy by circulating that money through the economy.

    30. Re: Damn right by Ryanrule · · Score: 1

      Money laundering, not tax purposes.

    31. Re: Damn right by HanzoSpam · · Score: 0

      If you're planning on committing a murder, the death penalty might be off-putting. Other than that, I wouldn't worry too much.

      --

      Progressivism: Parasites helping parasites to help themselves - to other people's stuff.
    32. Re: Damn right by b0s0z0ku · · Score: 0, Flamebait

      Except that a lot of murder convictions get overturned on appeal -- meaning that you could be wrongly convicted and still get the death penalty. Nah. Time for the US to bring its sentencing laws in line with the rest of Western civilization.

    33. Re: Damn right by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Fuck that. Montreal is a vibrant city with an endless supply of entertainment and the cost of living is ridiculously low for a city that size.

      If you're young, don't go to silicon valley to work for giant corporations that don't have any semblance of work/life balance and a cost of living that is just silly.

      Montreal has plenty of jobs, especially in areas of "AI"/machine learning stuff. But its also a city that values a balance in life. When the first warm day after winter hits, the bars fill up well before 5pm with folks in business attire.

      Seriously, Montreal is comparable (and in some cases better) to new York city entertainment and food wise, but with a metro system that actually works, and the average rent for 1 bed room apartment not too far from downtown being between $800-$1000/month! You can get even cheaper than that if you're willing to commute just a bit more. We have the same public bike system, same hot humid summers, worse winters mind you.

      Anyways, if you're young, single, and living it up, why would you move anywhere else in North America?

    34. Re: Damn right by b0s0z0ku · · Score: 1

      This. Mod parent up!

    35. Re: Damn right by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      I'm in NS, and house prices seem to be pretty ridiculous.
      I got laid off in 2016, and due to waiting period and (highly taxed) severance, I was in hard shape by the time I got EI (employment insurance). And it wasn't enough. In 2017 I got a little temporary work (I earned 6% of what I would get in a normal year). It was enough that I had to pay back 30% of the EI that I got. And I don't have it. Great system.

    36. Re: Damn right by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Quebec income taxes are crazy. WTF are you guys doing with all that money the west sends you?

    37. Re: Damn right by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      I think it's the other way around now. Chinese used to buy property in Vancouver like gangbusters but then Canada added a 15% tax on foreign buyers, so now the Chinese are buying in Seattle and surrounding areas. There are flyers everywhere for real estate that are written in Chinese.

    38. Re: Damn right by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Thatâ(TM)s ok, immigrant tech talent leaving US for Canada:
      https://www.bloomberg.com/news/features/2018-04-20/h-1b-workers-are-leaving-trump-s-america-for-the-canadian-dream

      College grads vs experienced talent, Canada getting better end of the deal.

    39. Re: Damn right by sabri · · Score: 1

      I think it's the other way around now

      Indeed. a few months ago the headline was exactly reversed:

      ANTI-TRUMP TECH WORKERS ARE DITCHING THE U.S. FOR CANADA

      âoeWeâ(TM)re seeing a reverse brain drain for the first time.â

      https://www.vanityfair.com/new...

      So, which one is it? Judging by the housing prices still shooting upwards, I think it's more that Canadians are coming here than vice versa.

      --
      I'm not a complete idiot... Some parts are missing.
    40. Re: Damn right by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      You should pay someone who knows what theyre doing to do your taxes, and not H&R Block you mong. Only a moran has to pay back EI.. learn to RRSP.. or stop having children you cant afford you white trash!

    41. Re: Damn right by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      I think you mean Vancouver, Washington?

    42. Re: Damn right by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      I think it's the other way around now

      Indeed. a few months ago the headline was exactly reversed:

      ANTI-TRUMP TECH WORKERS ARE DITCHING THE U.S. FOR CANADA

      A few months ago? There an article right here along those lines just last week!

      I work in oil and gas and was noting then that we just recently gained a few Canadian engineers who moved to the USA because they couldn't find work back home.

    43. Re: Damn right by ShanghaiBill · · Score: 1

      A lot of property is being bought up by Chinese investors

      That is only half the problem. The other half is severe restrictions on new construction.

      for tax purposes

      It is not about taxes. China is backsliding into a Mao-style personality cult, and Xi Jinping is talking up "traditional" socialist values, while using "anti-corruption" to target his political enemies. This could go in some really bad directions, so prosperous Chinese are looking to move money abroad so they have a bolt hole if there is another Cultural Revolution.

      This is bad for China, but is a GOOD THING for Canada. They import Chinese goods, and they "export" development and investment in their own cities.

      But if I were going to live in Canada, it would definitely be somewhere in BC. Lots of beautiful country up there.

      I agree that the Vancouver area is the nicest in Canada, but it still has no where near the professional opportunities of the SF Bay Area ... where the weather is even nicer.

    44. Re: Damn right by bugs2squash · · Score: 1

      You have that the wrong way around. If you're desperate enough to murder someone you're probably beyond considering the consequences.

      Parking in front of a fire hydrant on the other hand could become a thing of the past.

      --
      Nullius in verba
    45. Re: Damn right by Vinegar+Joe · · Score: 1

      So, which one is it? Judging by the housing prices still shooting upwards, I think it's more that Canadians are coming here than vice versa.

      Dumbass Americans are moving to Canada and intelligent Canadians are moving to the US.

      --
      "The average reporter we talk to is 27 years old......They literally know nothing." - Ben Rhodes
    46. Re: Damn right by b0s0z0ku · · Score: 1

      Most of the people with the gumption to want to expatriate (and not just say rah-rah-rah, my country is the greatest) are on the upper levels of intelligence.

    47. Re: Damn right by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Thatâ(TM)s ok, immigrant tech talent leaving US for Canada:
      https://www.bloomberg.com/news/features/2018-04-20/h-1b-workers-are-leaving-trump-s-america-for-the-canadian-dream

      College grads vs experienced talent, Canada getting better end of the deal.

      Most of those H1-Bs are from India and have no skill beyond copy-and-paste from StackOverflow.

    48. Re: Damn right by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Not sure I'm "on the upper levels of intelligence" but I left over 10 years ago and have not looked back. On the whole, the "off the pay stub" amount is comparable between Canada and various blue-states down south. Things like provincial taxes are far higher. Sales taxes are higher, but social security and health insurance deductions are significantly lower. And there's no penalty for not F/T work as health insurance is a provincial not a corporate matter. There are similar retirement mechanisms in both countries.

      Cold, yeah it's cold in the winter. Last time I checked, California can wiggle and burn from time to time. Ya take your chances.

    49. Re: Damn right by ArmoredDragon · · Score: 1

      Every four years a bunch of stupid people cry about democracy being over and now America is doomed because their guy lost, so now they've decided to leave, and some state wants to secede. Same shit, different election year.

      That article about the brain drain to Canada smelled of partisan anecdote.

    50. Re: Damn right by ShanghaiBill · · Score: 1

      If you're planning on committing a murder, the death penalty might be off-putting. Other than that, I wouldn't worry too much.

      You are assuming that only guilty people get convicted. When the Innocence Project first started using DNA, they found that 10% of convicts couldn't have committed the crimes. That doesn't mean the other 90% are all guilty, just that 10% is the floor on wrongful convictions.

      Incarceration rate in Canada: 114 per 100k.
      Incarceration rate in America: 660 per 100k

      List of countries by incarceration rate

    51. Re: Damn right by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      People moving to Silicon Valley were making minimum wage in Canada? I don't think so.

      Nice attempt to blow smoke about minimum wage though.

    52. Re: Damn right by Jodka · · Score: 1

      Thus, in the long term it grows the economy by circulating that money through the economy.

      Economics for morons.

      --
      Ceci n'est pas une signature.
    53. Re: Damn right by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Nope ... nothing desperate about killing. IT's a common human behavior as proven by Syrians, Croatians, Iraqi, Muzzi-wogs , USA nibbers and Guats and all of SE Asia from PolPot to Gurkaz. Tyrannous warlord skuts and Rawlsian pussywampters don't want to face-the-music ... so they claim violent response to violent Gub'mnt is ... un-naturally violent.

    54. Re:Damn right by molarmass192 · · Score: 1

      It's not high taxes, taxes in California are almost as high. The difference is that instead of $120K CDN salary, end of story, in Toronto, I can make a $200K USD salary, and $150K USD in RSUs. It's hard to argue with $440K CDN vs $120K CDN. The other problem is companies in Canada are mostly "tech" in name only, they don't act like tech companies (old tech stacks, MS and Java) and consider engineers as "cost centers" rather than "core" to the company mission. When the wages and attitude catch up, I suggest trimming some micro-management fat, the drainage will slow. I don't think it will ever reverse without a tech enlightenment at the corporate level and an explosion in wages. Until then, Canada get's the Trump tech refuges who would much rather be in the US earning solid salaries rather than the same amount my dad earned in 1985 when houses cost $200K CAD.

      --

      Good people do not need laws to tell them to act responsibly, while bad people will find a way around the laws-Plato
    55. Re: Damn right by c-A-d · · Score: 1

      More like Canada's US Immigration reject alternative to Seattle. You go there because you aren't allowed to immigrate to Seattle.

      --
      some karma... and kinda lukewarm about it.
    56. Re: Damn right by c-A-d · · Score: 1

      I live in Vancouver. I hate it. Looking at the rest of the country, it isn't much better.

      If I ever have kids, I'll be pushing them to get master's degrees so they can get mobile out of this country to places where they can actually make some money and have it go somewhere, like towards owning a home or having a decent retirement somewhere where it stays warm and sunny year round.

      --
      some karma... and kinda lukewarm about it.
    57. Re: Damn right by c-A-d · · Score: 1

      They have to be. They have the highest tax rate in the nation.

      --
      some karma... and kinda lukewarm about it.
    58. Re: Damn right by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      If it impoverishes American (or Canadian) workers for the benefit of Chinese oligarchs, ShanghaiBill approves!

    59. Re: Damn right by Reverend+Green · · Score: 1

      Let's stop playing along by calling it a "plea bargain". The old fashioned term is best: coerced false confession.

    60. Re: Damn right by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      #ProgressiveBigot

    61. Re: Damn right by Reverend+Green · · Score: 1

      Only smart, rich, virtuous people like ME deserve to have a family!!!!!!1!!11!!!

    62. Re: Damn right by kenh · · Score: 1

      You are assuming that only guilty people get convicted. When the Innocence Project first started using DNA, they found that 10% of convicts couldn't have committed the crimes. That doesn't mean the other 90% are all guilty, just that 10% is the floor on wrongful convictions.

      For a few select categories of crimes, not all.

      How many white collar criminals has the innocence project freed on DNA evidence? How many drug traffickers have been set free by the innocence project? Etc.

      --
      Ken
    63. Re: Damn right by b0s0z0ku · · Score: 1

      Giles Corey. "More weight."

    64. Re: Damn right by A5un · · Score: 1

      I'd lived in Vancouver most of my life and moved to Bay area about 3 years ago.
      Vancouver is rather quaint compared to Bay area and is lovely when the weather cooperates, which is about 6 weeks out of the year.
      Depite being in high tax California, I still pay less in taxes as percentage of my income compared to BC, even after more than doubling my income in Bay area. Granted, SF is literally a filled with human feces everywhere and not as nice and clean as Vancouver, but I can put up with that with all the extra dough rolling into the bank account.

    65. Re: Damn right by Mashiki · · Score: 1

      So people who were barely making ends meet, on say 2 PT jobs@$13 because FT jobs are so hard to find. And suddenly lose one of those jobs because the employer can no longer afford it is just great. You do realize that you get no EI in cases like that. You entire argument is build on Keynesian economics and artificial cash flow, using government interference to boost wages. The government would have been better off lowering business taxes and getting more people off the blackmarket hiring which is booming here. Hell when big name companies are offering to pay me($37/hr) under the table for work, there's a serious fucking problem with tax rates.

      --
      Om, nomnomnom...
    66. Re: Damn right by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      It's a real shame that wannabe-American Canadians like you aren't given honorary American citizenship so you can fuck off to your utopia. Maybe the two countries could work out a liberal/deplorable citizen exchange program?

      Don't worry animojo we all know who you really are in this thread.

    67. Re: Damn right by q_e_t · · Score: 1

      i seriously doubt that there is an intention to push out manufacturing jobs, but rather a realisation that they will no longer provide large scale employment.

    68. Re: Damn right by q_e_t · · Score: 1

      10% seems the typical Western nation figure.

    69. Re: Damn right by q_e_t · · Score: 1

      Keyensian economics, properly applied across the business cycle, has been very successful.

    70. Re: Damn right by q_e_t · · Score: 1

      where did the GP mention children?

    71. Re: Damn right by Mashiki · · Score: 1

      Keyensian economics, properly applied across the business cycle, has been very successful.

      If you mean "very successful" as in, creating massive bubbles(like the housing bubble in the US and Europe), then creating the massive housing bubble in Canada. Well I guess so! It's doing a very good job of sowing the seeds of it's own destruction, especially with those massively low interest rates. So now we get to the point in Canada, where housing prices are massively inflated and 55% of mortgage holders would be under water in 60 days with a 0.5% increase in the prime lending rate.

      Oh but it gets better. See, in Canada, the government has leveraged housing so heavily in the last 2 years it accounts for nearly 30% of our GDP. When the 2008/09 crash happened, the 15% of our GDP which is primarily oil, was enough to keep us out of recession. On this side however, you're about to see a massive crash in the housing market and huge devaluations in capital holdings.

      --
      Om, nomnomnom...
    72. Re: Damn right by Mashiki · · Score: 1

      i seriously doubt that there is an intention to push out manufacturing jobs, but rather a realisation that they will no longer provide large scale employment.

      No, there is a direct intention to push out manufacturing jobs. This is going on for years at this point, hell it was part of the Liberal Party of Ontario's platform in 2008. Read it yourself, it's not hard to find. The Liberal Party raised taxes directly against those industries to push them out, and industry pays a higher rate on electricity then any other sector. This is how bad it was: A company was planning to open a new plant in Sarnia(might have been Windsor). The utility refused to give them a discounted electric rate, the company decided it would be cheaper to build themselves their own private NG electric plant, and pay the environmental fees then to buy directly from the utility. That was until the government stepped in, and that was before the sale of hydro one.

      --
      Om, nomnomnom...
    73. Re: Damn right by Mashiki · · Score: 1

      Push them into trades, and have them combine it with technology related fields. Higher education fields are saturated with people in Canada, with large amounts of underemployment. Trades are hurting for warm bodies however and will be for decades. Even people with engineering degrees are struggling to find work, take a look at the oil patch for example. Wages have fallen 40% in the last decade, and companies are abusing the TFW program to bring people in from 3rd world countries because no-one wants to get paid $50k/year and live somewhere where it costs $80k to make ends meet.

      It also doesn't help that the government over the last 2 years has been pushing anti-merit policies for job hiring, and pushing equity based hiring. That's just going to be a mess in a few years.

      --
      Om, nomnomnom...
    74. Re: Damn right by Mashiki · · Score: 4, Insightful

      So why the hell didn't you GTFO yet? You should be very happy in the US with its neo-feudalist/protofascist shit laws, dirt cheap filthy energy, and large community of deplorables (meaning racist/xenophobic/otherwise bigoted hatemongers). They still have stagnant wages like most of the planet, but you might be satisfied to blame that on illegal immigrants there.

      Oh boy, I sure do like the progressives. The ones that are so out of touch that they think that anyone who doesn't fall in line should be attacked. So, my dear progressive moron. Please explain why Quebec said "that's it, we're full" on illegals crossing from the US. It broke their bank, and they had to send a bill to the federal government for reimbursement. Why don't you explain, why Ontario is also right at the breaking point, again from all those illegals.

      Now why don't you explain why there have been more illegals entering from the US then actual refugees from Syria. When you're done that, you can explain where we're going to get all this money for taking care of them. Then you can explain why Trudeau, after saying "Canada welcomes illegals" is suddenly looking to Trump and asking in very nice and polite words, if they could help Canada deal with the massive influx of illegals crossing into Canada from the US. Oh, and by "help" they mean, please deport them to their country of origin.

      It's a real shame that wannabe-American Canadians like you aren't given honorary American citizenship so you can fuck off to your utopia. Maybe the two countries could work out a liberal/deplorable citizen exchange program?

      It's a real shame that individuals like yourself who think money grows on trees, and is perfectly okay with people ghettoizing entire areas of a city is great. Hey, you wonder why Toronto and Ottawa have both had a massive jump in gun crime, stabbings, and violent assaults? Please explain why this is happening just "particular" areas. Can you explain with even the barest trickle of illegals being granted temporary residency that in small cities(under 50k) where they may have 2 rapes/year, have seen 40-80 in a year...suddenly, and the people arrested just "happen" to fall into one particular racial and economic demographic.

      It's almost like importing/allowing illegals in who have no care for the law, refuse to assimilate, and view women as worthless cause serious stability problems in society. Hey, maybe while you're at it you can go look at the UK which did something similar, and there's over 20 cites now with massive "asian" child rape gangs, and the police and government looked the other way while the rampant abuse was going on. Hey, while you're at it, why don't you go ask the local police boards in Ontario, why they're trying to push the EXACT same policies on police services in Ontario, that created that massive level of abuse in the UK.

      --
      Om, nomnomnom...
    75. Re:Damn right by Mashiki · · Score: 1

      You must be young because selling a house and moving a family is not trivial. What do you do once you're in SV and somehow something better pops up yet somewhere else?

      You pick up and move. Just like so many families did back in the 1950's and 1960's. My grandparents on my fathers side moved from southern ontario, to michigan, to indiana, to california and back again chasing higher paying nursing jobs and higher paying jobs in the trades. They did that for ~15 years or so, they had kids.

      Seems like so many people these days are still stuck in the "well the job is always there" mentality.

      --
      Om, nomnomnom...
    76. Re: Damn right by q_e_t · · Score: 1

      Sarnia. It seems the objection to the plant was due to pollution concerns, and does not match your characterisation. As to overall policy: http://cambridge.liberal.ca/bl... also does not match your characterisation (yes, I looked it up).

    77. Re: Damn right by q_e_t · · Score: 1

      Note my qualification "properly applied", which also means counter-cyclical measures to tame bubbles. Not that Greenspan was a Keynesian, nor is setting interest rates intended to be the primary tool, but lowering it does tend to create bubbles.

    78. Re: Damn right by Mashiki · · Score: 1

      Note my qualification "properly applied", which also means counter-cyclical measures to tame bubbles. Not that Greenspan was a Keynesian, nor is setting interest rates intended to be the primary tool, but lowering it does tend to create bubbles.

      Having problems finding any "properly applied" instances. Japan failure, EU countries failure. US failure. Canada caused a hyperinflation crash.

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      Om, nomnomnom...
    79. Re: Damn right by Mashiki · · Score: 1

      It seems the objection to the plant was due to pollution concerns, and does not match your characterisation.

      Question: Why does a company want to build it's own power plant in the first place? Because electricity prices are too high. That does match my characterization.

      also does not match your characterisation (yes, I looked it up).

      Apparently not very well, the Liberals have been in power in Ontario since the early 00's. That's also federal, not provincial. I mean, when the huffington post has an article like that. Or you can take the communist NDP's view on it.

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      Om, nomnomnom...
    80. Re: Damn right by q_e_t · · Score: 1
      The objection to more plants in Sarnia was pollution from the plants, not the power sources.

      On your second point, you said that if I looked up the policy, I would find, in black-and-white, statements from the party showing it to be hostile to manufacturing, but I found the opposite. What relevance does an opinion in a journal have in this context? Your statement was incorrect.

    81. Re: Damn right by q_e_t · · Score: 1

      Unfortunately, outside relatively limited circumstances, or Nordic nations, the anti-boom measures rarely get applied, as people like booms, but it doesn't mean the principle doesn't work. There have been instances in USA and Canadian history when counter-boom measures have been applied. With some irony, though, those arguing for stability have often argued against clipping the wings of booms.

    82. Re: Damn right by q_e_t · · Score: 1

      When was the hyperinflation in Canada? There are no recent instances.

    83. Re: Damn right by thundercattt · · Score: 1

      It's true, I look at the jobs offered money wise in the States vs Canada,no comparison. I get a recruiter daily on LinkedIn trying to lobby me for a SysAdmin or DevOps in Canada then they say max salary is 45k. I spit my coffee, laugh and point out min wage is about 30k so try again. Then I see the same type in the US around 80k US. Canada simply doesn't pay the high tech salaries the US does.

    84. Re: Damn right by Mashiki · · Score: 1

      1979-1983. That's recent.

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      Om, nomnomnom...
    85. Re: Damn right by Mashiki · · Score: 1

      The objection to more plants in Sarnia was pollution from the plants, not the power sources.

      The *cost* of electricity vs the *cost* of building a power plant for themselves.

      On your second point, you said that if I looked up the policy, I would find, in black-and-white, statements from the party showing it to be hostile to manufacturing, but I found the opposite. What relevance does an opinion in a journal have in this context? Your statement was incorrect.

      Well you haven't turned around and looked it up yet, you'll find the anti-manufacturing agenda in the place I stated. Again, don't confuse federal vs provincial. Those "opinions" well one was from the 3rd largest political party in Ontario, they were both there to help you out. Maybe you need more breadcrumbs?

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      Om, nomnomnom...
    86. Re: Damn right by JMJimmy · · Score: 1

      > blackmarket hiring which is booming here

      Source?

      > Hell when big name companies are offering to pay me($37/hr) under the table for work, there's a serious fucking problem with tax rates

      LOL - That's probably cause they're offloading costs onto you! It's hard to say without knowing your job/industry but I'm betting they're saving a bunch of money on not having to contribute to things like your retirement fund, or EI so you're protected when they decide to stop paying you.

    87. Re: Damn right by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      The 50k job loss was expected. It's a short term decline that happens with every minimum wage increase which is inevitably recovered within about a year.

      Unfortunately, the evidence from economic studies does not support this claim.

      See: Minimum Wages (MIT Press), David Neumark and William L. Wascher, Aug 13, 2010.

      You can end up with more people working at the minimum wage during a recession - but this doesn't represent a success of the minimum wage policy, but rather a loss of higher income jobs. Similarly, you can sometimes end up with more jobs if the economy improves - but in that case the minimum wage policy is still reducing the number of jobs from what it would have been without that policy (often the new jobs are going to people moving into the region, which doesn't help the current residents who are out of work).

      In short, there are a lot of ways to jump to erroneous conclusions - especially when the unscrupulous are encouraging this through propaganda.

      One of the biggest negative consequences of minimum wage comes from the loss of working hours. In this situation, people typically don't qualify for the benefits of being out-of-work, but still need to make ends meet. This forces people to work multiple jobs, with multiple commutes, which in turn increases traffic, road rage, accidents, stress, health care expenses, and crime, and lowers education (time away from the family is time not available to help children).

      The preponderance of the evidence is that minimum wage does far more harm than good over the long term, and is a bad policy. It is especially harmful to the lowest income folks.

      Just as you should be willing to accept the preponderance of the evidence for climate change, you should also be willing to accept it for other issues.

      There are several alternate policies that could replace minimum wage, and would do a far better job, but implementing them would require actual work from politicians, and that would take time away from getting re-elected. It's far easier to get re-elected by selling people lies such as minimum wage - even though that does enormous long term harm to society. If you want to get the rich, reform the tax code to make it simpler (complex tax codes can hide a lot of loopholes) and highly progressive, don't try to do it with regressive policies that don't work.

    88. Re: Damn right by q_e_t · · Score: 1

      It was 12% in 1980. That is not hyperinflation.

    89. Re: Damn right by q_e_t · · Score: 1

      I've looked. Nothing contradicts my first link. If you look at manufacturing statistics in real terms (http://www.statcan.gc.ca/pub/11-626-x/11-626-x2017074-eng.pdf) it flattened off in 1996 (although overall industrial production is up, including extractive). Yes, there was a dip during the Great Recession, like everywhere else, but then manufacturing output rose, despite the policy you allege.

    90. Re: Damn right by q_e_t · · Score: 1

      As a hint, read https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wik.... Hyperinflation is not defined in absolute percentages, but is typically understood to mean over 50%. Low teens is no where near hyperinflation, even if it is less than ideal.

    91. Re:Damn right by Citizen+of+Earth · · Score: 1

      To prevent this, the Quebec government doesn't teach young people English, which greatly limits their social mobility.

    92. Re: Damn right by bluegutang · · Score: 1

      Seriously, I fully get why young Canadians are trying to GTFO from Canada.

      That's a little hard to believe, when Canada has the highest quality of life of any country.

    93. Re: Damn right by JMJimmy · · Score: 1

      Actually all of the evidence supports it. What doesn't occur is the middle income jobs rising at the same rate - the gradual elimination of the middle class. That said the lower class ends up having a better standard of living that was equal to or greater than the middle class of generations past.

    94. Re:Damn right by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Get a job where you can be surrounded by 20-somethings into your 30s and 40s. e.g. teaching, some forms of engineering, research, etc.

      Porn photographer?

    95. Re: Damn right by Mashiki · · Score: 1

      It was 12% in 1980. That is not hyperinflation.

      Did you skip over the part with "wage and price controls" I bet you did. Did you skip the part where wages went from $12k/mo at the middle class level to $31k by the end of 1982. Where mortgage rates were 13% yes it does look like you did. Did you miss the part where lending interest rates hit 26% looks like you did.

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      Om, nomnomnom...
    96. Re: Damn right by Mashiki · · Score: 1

      Besides you still haven't figured out the difference between a provincial and federal government. Try again.

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      Om, nomnomnom...
    97. Re: Damn right by Mashiki · · Score: 1

      That's a little hard to believe, when Canada has the highest quality of life of any country.

      "Quality of life" doesn't really mean much. I could live a very high quality life, if I was making $250k and was living in Toronto. On the other hand, if I was a farmer and the government passed laws so that I'd be taxed on passing my incorporated farm to a family member. I wouldn't be. Especially when my profit is only $20k/year.

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    98. Re:Damn right by Mashiki · · Score: 1

      I haven't lived anywhere else in Canada, so I don't know.

      Go move to Grande Prairie, Alberta. You'll see just how fast things change.

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      Om, nomnomnom...
    99. Re: Damn right by q_e_t · · Score: 1

      I know what the difference is. I posted the first link I found, and it is a copy of the national policy. Would you like to post a link to a policy, not a comment site, demonstrating otherwise?

    100. Re: Damn right by q_e_t · · Score: 1

      Interest rates aren't inflation. Even inflation at 26% would not be hyperinflation. Wage increases are not inflation, even if they may be inflationary. Wage and price controls tend to lower inflation - successful action to prevent inflation does not mean there was inflation any more than locking my door means I was burgaled. There was no hyperinflation in Canada in 1979-82 by any mainstream definition used by economists.

    101. Re: Damn right by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Actually all of the evidence supports it. What doesn't occur is the middle income jobs rising at the same rate - the gradual elimination of the middle class. That said the lower class ends up having a better standard of living that was equal to or greater than the middle class of generations past.

      Nice fantasy world you live in. Ignore the science, you already know how the world works.

      Changing technology, not minimum wage, gives the lower class a higher standard of living. The lower class had a better standard of living as a result of changing technology long before minimum wage was ever implemented anywhere - and that trend continues upward. But go ahead and claim credit for everything, why confuse yourself with facts?

    102. Re: Damn right by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      That's ages ago. 'Recent' is Zimbabwe, current is Venezuela. Russia is on a slow inflationary burn, too.

    103. Re: Damn right by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Don't feed the trolls.

  2. Unlikely by 110010001000 · · Score: 3, Insightful

    This is unlikely, since we all know from comments on Slashdot that the US is a third world hellhole no one would want to even visit, much less live in. Surely they meant they fled to Europe, which as we all know is a welcoming, enlightened place for humans to live in peace and harmony.

    1. Re: Unlikely by dnaumov · · Score: 2, Informative

      Wasnâ(TM)t it just weeks ago when a Slashdot article was proclaiming Trump is causing a brain drain with techies fleeing to Canada? And they are all reversing course within weeks?

    2. Re: Unlikely by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      What are you talking about? They are going to Silicon Valley, which left the US in 2002.

    3. Re: Unlikely by 110010001000 · · Score: 4, Insightful

      This is similar to visiting investment websites. They will simultaneously tell you that oil prices are collapsing and skyrocketing on the same page. Data can be interpreted to fit any agenda. Most likely this "study" was funded by someone looking to increase (taxpayer funded) investment in the Canadian tech industry.

    4. Re: Unlikely by DontBeAMoran · · Score: 1

      Or it could be both things happening. Young Canadian talent is moving to the USA and older USAmerican talent is moving to Canada.

      --
      #DeleteFacebook
    5. Re: Unlikely by 110010001000 · · Score: 3, Insightful

      No American is desperate enough to move to Canada. Even when they hit 30. They would rather accept their fate.

    6. Re:Unlikely by ranton · · Score: 1

      This is unlikely, since we all know from comments on Slashdot that the US is a third world hellhole no one would want to even visit, much less live in. Surely they meant they fled to Europe, which as we all know is a welcoming, enlightened place for humans to live in peace and harmony.

      They are leaving for the coastal area of California, which has little in common with most of the US. It even has little in common with the non-coastal areas of California.

      --
      -- All that is necessary for the triumph of evil is that good men do nothing. -- Edmund Burke
    7. Re:Unlikely by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      They are, unsurprisingly, fleeing to a Blue state

      Wake me when there is a mass exodus to Alabama or Kansas

    8. Re:Unlikely by 110010001000 · · Score: 2

      Wait, so the US isn't one homogenous entity? There are different places in the US with different experiences and lifestyles and living conditions? Amazing what you learn on Slashdot.

    9. Re: Unlikely by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      No. It's the PhDs from India that have decided not to wait 10, 20, 50 years for a green card that are leaving. I know one of them.

    10. Re: Unlikely by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Our murder rate in Ottawa, the capital, with ~1m people is 15-20/yr. There is probably no area of town where I wouldn't walk at night. Canada is the kinder gentler America.

    11. Re: Unlikely by 110010001000 · · Score: 2

      Lies. We all know the capital of Canada is Toronto.

    12. Re: Unlikely by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Don't you know that California is overrun by illegal immigrants and homeless? All true white-blooded AMERICANS fled sixteen years ago.

      That us how Trump knows there are 8 million illegal voters.

    13. Re: Unlikely by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      The smart PhDs from India try to marry an American, and get their green card in 3 months through marriage.
      Those who aren't too smart can still marry an illegal Mexican, and get their green card through DACA in 6 years.

      Only idiot PhDs from India actually try to follow the law "the right way" and wait 20 years for a green card that way.

    14. Re: Unlikely by DeVilla · · Score: 1

      Well you see, they aren't actually fleeing anything ... in either direction. These are bright young folks. They are out to enjoy themselves and have fun. They have a plan. They'll see if they can keep running back and forth fast enough to start the continent rocking. First it'll be a subtle wobbling, but eventually they'll find the right frequency. Then the fun will begin.

    15. Re:Unlikely by GoTeam · · Score: 1
    16. Re: Unlikely by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Yes I came on to post the same thing.
      https://slashdot.org/story/339951

    17. Re: Unlikely by cbiltcliffe · · Score: 1

      Sure, but then you have to live in the same city as all those politicians.....

      --
      "City hall" in German is "Rathaus" Kinda explains a few things......
    18. Re: Unlikely by Type44Q · · Score: 1

      And they are all reversing course within weeks?

      Like motherfucking alternating current, baby.

    19. Re: Unlikely by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Those were top-tier scientists lured by the money and promise of a better society. These are university graduate computer programmers lured by money and the promise of better weather.

    20. Re: Unlikely by Spinlock_1977 · · Score: 1

      It's about time a Smart American commented!

      --
      - The Kessel run is for nerf herders. I can circumnavigate the entire Central Finite Curve in a lot less than 12 parse
    21. Re: Unlikely by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Or it could be both things happening. Young Canadian talent is moving to the USA and older USAmerican talent is moving to Canada.

      That could be true -there is no young US tech talent anymore - they don't expect to earn enough to pay back the college loans, so they don't earn CS degrees, and become medical assistants instead. The young Canadians are lured by the "high" [relative] wages and are willing to overlook the political mess. Older USA talent is fleeing as they want to live a country where their kids have a least a chance of a lifestyle at least as good as their parents had it.

    22. Re:Unlikely by serviscope_minor · · Score: 1

      Despite your best efforts to fill up every single thread reently there are actually multiple people here with different opinions. Fancy that!

      --
      SJW n. One who posts facts.
    23. Re:Unlikely by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      And in your case, that's a truly unfortunate thing.

    24. Re: Unlikely by Type44Q · · Score: 0

      These are bright young folks

      Those two things don't go together in the same sentence any more, sorry.

    25. Re: Unlikely by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Just keep telling yourself that while US spirals downward in a kleptocracy.

    26. Re: Unlikely by dlingman · · Score: 1

      No American is desperate enough to move to Canada. Even when they hit 30. They would rather accept their fate.

      Carrousel time?

    27. Re: Unlikely by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Odd. I work with TWO americans who left the US to move to Canada.

    28. Re:Unlikely by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      "Can't refute the message, insult the messenger."
      -serviscope_minor

      Fancy indeed how hostile and irrational your comments become when they do not fit your narrative and gain traction. It's Saturday. You might fool people out of work or slacking off at work. Those that must deal with the real world, Saturday is their time off and they wont have their precious time flooded with your bullshit. Take it to reddit.

    29. Re:Unlikely by serviscope_minor · · Score: 1

      awwww I've got an AC stalker. So cute!

      --
      SJW n. One who posts facts.
    30. Re: Unlikely by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Good luck with health insurance down there when you're 40-65 without a good, full-time job.

    31. Re: Unlikely by c6gunner · · Score: 1

      Our murder rate in Ottawa, the capital, with ~1m people is 15-20/yr. There is probably no area of town where I wouldn't walk at night. Canada is the kinder gentler America.

      If, when deciding whether to live in Canada or the USA, "murder rate" makes it anywhere into your top ten list of deciding factors, you are a very silly person.

    32. Re: Unlikely by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Well parts of USA are indeed hellholes thanks to racist hillbillies like you.

    33. Re:Unlikely by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Well, it is indeed a 3rd world shithole. It's a fact that is easy to notice once you've known several civilized countries.

    34. Re: Unlikely by DontBeAMoran · · Score: 1

      I wonder how many will get the reference.

      --
      #DeleteFacebook
    35. Re: Unlikely by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Not anybody under 30, at least.

  3. MAGA by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    MAGA

    1. Re: MAGA by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Why aren't we building a yuge wall around all of Canada, and making the Canadians pay for it?

  4. Eh? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Eh?

  5. "Mass exodus" by MoarSauce123 · · Score: 1

    Who writes these summaries? An exodus implies that there is a mass. It's like white mustang, ATM machine, LCD display, and free gift.

    1. Re:"Mass exodus" by samwichse · · Score: 1

      Wait, how is a white mustang redundant?

  6. Soon they'll face a different drain by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Soon those individuals will experience a quality of life drain as they move into trailers they will hardly go back to with all the hours they'll work.

    Not for me.

  7. So, people are moving around ? by alexhs · · Score: 5, Informative

    Two weeks ago, we learned that Engineers Are Leaving America For Canada.

    Do the stories cancel out ?

    Will we get a follow-up story about (for example) how young Canadians come to the Silicon Valley to get credentials, then leave because of the high cost of living / insecurity over employee buses attacks ?

    --
    I have discovered a truly marvelous proof of killer sig, which this margin is too narrow to contain.
    1. Re:So, people are moving around ? by 110010001000 · · Score: 4, Funny

      I think we need to build a wall to keep people from moving around so much.

    2. Re:So, people are moving around ? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      I agree, the US can keep their migrants that keep coming illegally into Canada.

    3. Re:So, people are moving around ? by 110010001000 · · Score: 1

      Refugees, not "migrants".

    4. Re:So, people are moving around ? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Two weeks ago, we learned that Engineers Are Leaving America For Canada

      Yeah, if you count the H1-Bs, but to paraphrase President Trump we're not sending you our best and brightest.

    5. Re:So, people are moving around ? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      More like, the younger generation are being pushed out by older, experienced Americans coming in from the south. Silly Valley has an unending thirst for naïve fresh meat, just like Hollywood.

    6. Re:So, people are moving around ? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      >Will we get a follow-up story about (for example) how young Canadians come to the Silicon Valley to get credentials, then leave because of the high cost of living / insecurity over employee buses attacks ?

      They come for the "big name company" dot.com experience. They're welcome because there aren't enough US comp sci graduates [you'd think, according to the Holy Free Market that this situation would increase salaries, but it doesn't, thanks to H1B] to fill the jobs. The Canadians already have their bachelor's or master's degrees, and they won't spend the next 30 years paying for them.

    7. Re:So, people are moving around ? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      I apologize profusely for that. But unfortunately they won't let us shoot them and we can't afford any more welfare recipients, either.

    8. Re:So, people are moving around ? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Do the stories cancel out ?

      The Great Pacific Plastic Vortex will be accompanied by the North American Brain Circulation.

    9. Re:So, people are moving around ? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      And get Stormy Daniels to pay for it

    10. Re:So, people are moving around ? by The+Cynical+Critic · · Score: 1

      The thing about Silicon Valley (i.e the companies who are based there as a whole) is that it's very good at attracting top talent from all over the world with salaries that that are very rarely matched elsewhere in the world and top talent is obviously a relatively small fraction of total workers in any industry. Additionally there's also the fact that Silicon Valley companies tend to be most interested in recent graduates as they usually haven't started a family just yet and are still very eager to prove themselves, so they'll actually want to work crazy hours and won't hesitate to move long distances. This article specifically talks about new graduates heading down south to California, so it does fit in with what's publicly known about Silicon Valley and the companies that operate from there.

      Thus it stands to reason that Silicon Valley is draining Canada of top new graduates while older and less talented people are heading in the other direction. Who's getting the better deal is something you can debate, but it's basically a brain drain of different types of people going in either direction.

      --
      "Why should I want to make anything up? Life's bad enough as it is without wanting to invent any more of it."
    11. Re:So, people are moving around ? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      I think we need to build a wall to keep people from moving around so much.

      Nukes are cheaper.

    12. Re:So, people are moving around ? by davecb · · Score: 1
      And today, an article about the reverse brain drain, https://www.theglobeandmail.co... reporting evidence contradicting the UofT article. Amusingly the data comes from MaRS.

      [MaRS is an incubator, originally for "Medical and Related Sciences."]

      --
      davecb@spamcop.net
    13. Re:So, people are moving around ? by c-A-d · · Score: 1

      It's a lot cheaper to get a degree when tuition is only a couple of thousand per term and you only have to take transit from your parent's multi-million dollar, 70 year old vancouver special.

      --
      some karma... and kinda lukewarm about it.
    14. Re:So, people are moving around ? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Hah! These are mostly flamebait articles about Canada. No, Canadians will not want to leave Canada in the long run. Merely cash out their student loans and then come back and settle down.

    15. Re:So, people are moving around ? by aeortiz · · Score: 1

      The difference is that according to one article skilled Immigrants are moving to Canada because they aren't welcome in the US, According to the other, young Canadians are moving out because the economy is stagnant.

  8. So Canada is the same as everywhere else? by shess · · Score: 1

    AFAICT, top grads from top schools move to Silicon Valley. Period. We only have a couple of the top schools in the bay area so that implies that the rest of them are coming from top schools outside the bay area. We have top people from Waterloo, Georgia Tech, IIT, basically everywhere. It's not even complicated, the top jobs are mostly here, most people don't want to play second fiddle in a securities trading shop or insurance company when they can be top dogs in a software firm. Silicon Valley's position as the dominant region is gradually changing over time, but the jobs aren't dispersing evenly into the world, there are just other concentrated locales you can also consider these days like Seattle.

  9. Contradictory stories by Chris+Mattern · · Score: 1

    I thought the techies were leaving the US for Canada because they couldn't stand Trump?

    1. Re: Contradictory stories by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Trump isn't the President of California so it isn't a problem.

    2. Re:Contradictory stories by theweatherelectric · · Score: 1

      Yes, and due to changes to the immigration system. A month ago, it was claimed Canada had pulled off a brain heist, but now they are supposedly suffering a brain drain. It's all a bit inconsistent.

    3. Re:Contradictory stories by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Yes but creimer is already in Silicon Valley so Trudeau doesn't need to build a rubber wall to keep the fat fucker out!

    4. Re: Contradictory stories by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Canadian raised/schooled graduate citizens are being enticed by the US and exacerbated by the recent low Canadian dollar. Hopefully the oil price rebound and a NAFTA resolution will help there. The âoedrainâ to Canada is by international migrants that may have gone to the US.

    5. Re:Contradictory stories by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      You shouldn't be dissing I.T. closet cleaners. They often volunteer to do jobs that everyone else spent years avoiding. For example, creimer cleared out a 600-sqft storage closet that no one had seen the floor in eight years. He did that in between tickets over a six week period. He also finished deploying 750 PCs and 1,500 monitors ahead of schedule, ending his 12-month contract after nine months.

    6. Re:Contradictory stories by JMJimmy · · Score: 1

      A fair number of the IT world do go to Silicon Valley due to the wages and opportunities. Canadian IT wages are a joke for the most part. That said, it's because we have a higher level of general computing knowledge. It's a good thing in that we are fairly computer literate, but it's also a bad thing because there's a lot of people who've gotten minimal education in IT and are filling roles they have no business being in. Security is going to be a big problem here.

    7. Re:Contradictory stories by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0


      MODDOWN! ; creimer spam post again!

      creimer wants you to click on his youtube channel, then click on his stupid amazon affiliate link spam on Youtube. There is nothing of value on creimer youtube channel. Only creimer click-bot goes there.

      creimer, I reported you to youtube and amazon and I keep reporting every spam post you make so all these spam posts will do is bring your view count in negative territory for a given day since youtube barred your stupid click-bot and your spam posts.

    8. Re:Contradictory stories by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      I believe you creimer. deploying PCs is just as much a repetitive task as it can get. Just like deploying spam!

      Autistic retards are good at it!

    9. Re:Contradictory stories by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      I believe you creimer. deploying PCs is just as much a repetitive task as it can get. Just like deploying spam!

      Autistic retards are good at it!

      You must be new around here. Just about everything in IT is a repetitive task. Some people are better at handling repetitive tasks and handling the boredom that comes with it. I've seen many "normal" people bail out of IT because the monotony wears them down day after day. If you're dealing with users, everyday is Groundhog Day. Some people can find a niche and do quite well for themselves.

  10. No problemo! by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Just keep up with h1b's and illegals! Of course convincing everyone of a shortage is a good strategy to get more h1b's and illegals.

  11. Lazy negro. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    You forgot that one. Also:

    Smart Asian
    Jewish accountant
    Horrible woman driver

  12. Work remotely, get US salary by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    This is why the trick is to work remotely for a US country, while staying in Canada to enjoy the affordable health care. That way you avoid the low wages too, especially given the cost of living in e.g. BC.

    1. Re:Work remotely, get US salary by 110010001000 · · Score: 1

      You mean a US country like the UK?

    2. Re: Work remotely, get US salary by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Yeah that's my current gig, live in the boonies in Alberta and work for Ann awesome SF company.

  13. Good Schools by rsilvergun · · Score: 1, Insightful

    Public Transportation. Clean Water and Air. Free healthcare.

    As for the States? 2 hour commutes... one way. Smog days... in summer. Lead in my water. Lax safety regulations. High taxes that pay for nothing but a big 'ole military empire. And education system that's been gutted.

    If I had it to do over again I'd moved to Canada in a heartbeat.

    --
    Hi! I make Firefox Plug-ins. Check 'em out @ https://addons.mozilla.org/en-US/firefox/addon/youtube-mp3-podcaster/
    1. Re: Good Schools by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1, Interesting

      If you remove black people from the statistics, America's education system scores #3 in the world, instead of #16.

      If you're white or asian, come on over.

    2. Re:Good Schools by 110010001000 · · Score: 1

      So in the States, everyone has a two hour commute (one way)? We all have smog days...in summer.

      "And education system that's been gutted."

      That I can believe.

      "If I had it to do over again I'd moved to Canada in a heartbeat."

      I would too. Then I would get some edumacashun.

    3. Re: Good Schools by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0, Insightful

      Also if you remove racists from Congress, the GOP is down to sixteen members.

    4. Re:Good Schools by 50000BTU_barbecue · · Score: 1

      " Free healthcare. "

      You clearly don't have a clue. Let me know when you want me to regale you with my experiences of our "free" "healthcare" system.

      --
      Mostly random stuff.
    5. Re: Good Schools by cbiltcliffe · · Score: 1, Informative

      "Free" healthcare. Sure. "Free." You pay a fee for an ambulance, you pay hospital fees for some things, and the medication you need ends up not being covered by the "all medications for people under 25 are free" program that the lying, idiot Wynne government puts in place.
      Then on top of that, you'really paying outrageous taxes for everything, and needed surgeries can take literally years to schedge.
      I'd rather pay premiums for a system that works, TYVM.

      --
      "City hall" in German is "Rathaus" Kinda explains a few things......
    6. Re:Good Schools by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1

      So in the States, everyone has a two hour commute (one way)?

      The state of California, where Silicon Valley is located, is one of the largest US States and because of high housing costs in urban and suburban areas, due to a chronic shortage of housing units, it's not uncommon to have hour long commutes or even two hours in some cases. California has been under building housing for decades and the problem has now reached crisis proportions.

    7. Re:Good Schools by 50000BTU_barbecue · · Score: 3, Interesting

      It's difficult for people to understand that we are taxed like a socialist country but get services like a capitalist country. The corporate takeover of our government is slowly but surely happening, one step at a time.

      --
      Mostly random stuff.
    8. Re: Good Schools by b0s0z0ku · · Score: 1

      Then move to Switzerland, not the USA. They basically have the US system, except that it works and premiums are reasonable.

    9. Re:Good Schools by goose-incarnated · · Score: 1

      Free healthcare.

      The wait times are insane: see this for a 2017 report.

      A wait of 21 weeks to see the surgeon? In non-SPH country I got an appt for a surgeon the day after I saw the GP.

      I spoke to a candian recently who waited two weeks for an MRI. Apparently that is normal. I waited 30 minutes for the MRI after seeing the neurosurgeon, and four days later I had my operation.

      Did it cost? Certainly, but that's what my medical insurance is for and they covered it almost fully. The co-pay was small enough that I didn't care about it.

      SPH sounds like a good idea on paper. In practice it reduces all patients to the same level of importance to society. While the capitalistic system may have its problems, as long as society finds you important enough to pay you well, you'll get prioritised over those people who cannot afford top-of-the-range insurance.

      I prefer it this way. I don't see why an active and contributing member of society should receive equal priority to a welfare recipient. Give them both healthcare services, and let the one with the money jump the queue, because if they have the money then it means that society found them useful enough to give them money.

      There *are* problems that must be fixed with this system, but they won't be fixed with single-payer healthcare.

      --
      I'm a minority race. Save your vitriol for white people.
    10. Re: Good Schools by goose-incarnated · · Score: 1

      Then on top of that, you'really paying outrageous taxes for everything, and needed surgeries can take literally years to schedge.

      I can't mod because I posted. See my post above: my experience

      --
      I'm a minority race. Save your vitriol for white people.
    11. Re:Good Schools by b0s0z0ku · · Score: 1

      (1) Those are AVERAGE wait times ... wait times for more serious conditions are shorter.
      (2) Given your welfare recipient vs active member example, who says the welfare recipient, if they were in better health, won't be able to work and contribute?
      (3) Furthermore, who says the welfare recipient isn't poor because of lack of opportunities afforded them be society. US education and professional opportunities are highly unequal by area, income level, and (yes) ethnicity.

      Treating everyone equally is a good thing -- human life shouldn't be valued on how much money people make. Another example. Should a teacher in Arizona making $25,000/yr be considered less valuable than some roided-up sports star making $10,000,000 a year?

    12. Re: Good Schools by serviscope_minor · · Score: 0

      Hey, it''s another fact-free liberal.....

      You're right the 16 is FAKE NEWS. It's actually 5.

      --
      SJW n. One who posts facts.
    13. Re: Good Schools by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1

      Mostly because Switzerland, relatively, won't let many minorities in. The poor, downtrodden, huddled masses, despite all the FUD are welcome in some countries and not others. They do strain infrastructure, insurance, and fed spending. That's the cost of rich diversity and having a country that isn't as homogeneous as Switzerland.

    14. Re: Good Schools by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Isn't there a gas chamber somewhere you're supposed to be in?

    15. Re: Good Schools by b0s0z0ku · · Score: 1

      Switzerland has more immigration than you'd think. 6% of the population are Muslim, and there are open work-visa agreements with many European countries. So no, their strength doesn't come from xenophobia.

    16. Re: Good Schools by UnknownSoldier · · Score: 1

      Agreed, TINSTAAFL.

      The problem with socialism is that eventually you run out of other people's money. Robbing Peter to pay Paul isn't sustainable. :-/

    17. Re: Good Schools by Type44Q · · Score: 2

      Could it be that the Swiss... protect themselves by - dare I say it - refusing to participate in a 'race to the bottom' by importing cheap labor?

    18. Re: Good Schools by b0s0z0ku · · Score: 1

      Switzerland has more open borders than the US -- citizens of most EU countries (ex Romania/Bulgaria, I think) can easily get work permits. The process is a cakewalk compared to getting US work permits if you're Canadian or Mexican.

    19. Re:Good Schools by fluffernutter · · Score: 1

      I don't understand how people have families with an hour long commute, I used to get off work at five and had to get my kids to competitive swim practice by 6:30. Parents must have their kids spend a lot of time with strangers.

      --
      Laws are rules for the court, but merely a bottom bar to hit for life. Think beyond laws in your actions always.
    20. Re:Good Schools by fluffernutter · · Score: 1

      If wait time is going to change your outcome, then they give you an MRI right away. Why do people not understand that EVERYONE doesn't need an immediate MRI.

      --
      Laws are rules for the court, but merely a bottom bar to hit for life. Think beyond laws in your actions always.
    21. Re: Good Schools by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Homogeny. Heterodoxy. Conformity. Small country. Similar values equates to less conflict. They have one and only one significant culture. Every country that is the same in the developed world does well.

      Only in western Europe is a 6% minority rate considered diverse.

      It's a bad joke. When the minority rate is 40-60% then we can talk about equality, diversity, and strong immigration. But the culture there wont let that happen. Why is that?

    22. Re: Good Schools by b0s0z0ku · · Score: 1

      The rate of non-Swiss residents is likely much higher than 6%. Remember, they allow virtually unrestricted immigration from most of the EU. They're not part of the EU, but they're part of work-permit treaties.

    23. Re: Good Schools by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      [AC to preserve moderation]

      My wife is from Switzerland. Their medical system is more free-market and less monopolistic than ours, and Basel is a huge pharma research and manufacturing center.

    24. Re:Good Schools by goose-incarnated · · Score: 1

      Given your welfare recipient vs active member example, who says the welfare recipient, if they were in better health, won't be able to work and contribute?

      I didn't say they wouldn't, I said they aren't. Given a contributing member of society and a non-contributing member of society, it makes sense that the contributors are sent back to work as soon as possible.

      Having everyone go into the same queue is inefficient.

      Treating everyone equally is a good thing -- human life shouldn't be valued on how much money people make. Another example. Should a teacher in Arizona making $25,000/yr be considered less valuable than some roided-up sports star making $10,000,000 a year?

      Firstly, what I think about the sports star and the teacher is irrelevant - society currently values the sports star more and that's the way it is. Would you prefer that the $25k teacher be away from work for a month because they're waiting in a queue for health services, or would you rather a welfare recipient wait in a queue for a month?

      Secondly, I did not say that human life should be valued according to how much people make, I said that the members of society who hold value should be allowed to use that value to jump the queue. In practice the $25k teacher can afford enough health insurance to jump the queue over the welfare recipient, even if only slightly. The $10m sports star can also jump the queue, but only up to a point because even if every millionaire jumped the queue, there are still more service providers than millionaires so all they would do is push back the service by a day.

      The sad fact is that there is a limited number of health services hence there is a queue for those services. How do you schedule who goes first? First come, first served? Urgency? Payment?

      For health services we use payment, with urgency overriding it. I think it works fine that way.

      --
      I'm a minority race. Save your vitriol for white people.
    25. Re:Good Schools by b0s0z0ku · · Score: 1

      Urgency and probability of success of a given treatment.

      I can't say that I could decide between the welfare recipient and teacher without further information. Remember, Edison died rich and Tesla died penniless. The sports star? Proof that society is full of dumb people who mis-value others' "value."

      You're toeing the Christian prosperity gospel line, that wealth and financial success are somehow tied to being a good or deserving person. I call nonsense on this -- it's a bunch of crap fed to stupid people, designed to keep them placid and accepting of social inequality.

    26. Re:Good Schools by b0s0z0ku · · Score: 1

      To use a different example of misvaluation of social value... we in the US pay adjunct professors, doctoral candidates, and research assistants engaged in life-saving biomedical research $20-25,000 per year. Meanwhile, middle managers at any number of firms whose main business is importation of cheap, disposable plastic trinkets made by underpaid workers can easily make $150,000 per year. Which points out the need for everyone to be offered decent levels of medical care -- pay grade has little to do with the social importance of one's work.

    27. Re:Good Schools by goose-incarnated · · Score: 1

      You're toeing the Christian prosperity gospel line

      For the decade and more that I've been on slashdot I've always been open about being an atheist. Search my posting history; you'll see it.

      I do not get to decide what society values. Seriously, I don't. However (and this is the important point you missed in your rush to virtue signal) placing workers interests ahead of non-workers interests does not mean that you are denying non-workers any health care.

      I like having health services delivered in minutes, so I pay for that and the current system allows me to do so. If society values my contribution so little that I could not pay to avoid a 1 month wait while someone who *is* valued more pays so they don't have to wait, whose fault is that?

      In your haste to respond you are ignoring the fact that the $25k teacher should be allowed to pay for jumping the queue, and on $25k a health insurance is affordable enough to skip the queue.

      This only becomes an issue when you have people with no health insurance nor any productive value to offer society, compete for services with productive people.

      It does not make sense to penalise the society by forcing all its productive members into the same queue. Sure, you can point to outliers (sports stars, for example), but the full clear majority of people are working people who provide some sort of value in order to get paid. They aren't sports stars, CEOs and celebrities. If they stopped from providing that value it is society that suffers, whereas if you make a welfare recipient wait a month society won't even notice.

      --
      I'm a minority race. Save your vitriol for white people.
    28. Re:Good Schools by b0s0z0ku · · Score: 2

      You may claim to be an atheist, but you've been infected with the US idea that wealth == value to society and are parroting it.

      That $25k/yr teacher? Say she pays 20% effective tax rate. You're left with $20k/yr. Housing? $600/mo or $7200/hr. Down to $12800. Car insurance. $1000/yr, down to $11800. Food, $200/mo or $2400/yr. Down to $9400. Utilities in Arizona, $200/mo, down to $7000. Any student loans? 10% of income, $2500/yr, down to $5500. Car repairs/lease, $2000/yr, down to $3500. Clothing, $1000/yr, down to $2500 for insurance and anything outside of bare necessities. And insurance deductibles in the US aren't zero.

      Do the math before you talk how great the US system is.

    29. Re:Good Schools by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      I live in Southern California, south of LA. Lived here my whole life; 31 yrs old. I have no opinion of Canada; I've never been there. Here's my experience.

      2 hour commutes... one way

      Current commute is 45min one way. It's pleasant though, because only 15min is on a congested freeway (5 North), with the rest through hills and a nature preserve. I have 2 fun cars. Also, gas is cheap.

      Smog days... in summer

      Dont know what a "smog day" is.

      Lead in my water.

      Never had this as far as I'm aware.

      Lax safety regulations

      CA is infamous for gratuitous safety regulations.

      High taxes that pay for nothing but a big 'ole military empire

      Compared to other Western countries, taxes aint bad. Plus having a big 'ole military empire is pretty cool. So is our big 'ole economic empire.

      And education system that's been gutted

      School was pretty piss poor, but opportunities are present if you're after a beefier education (e.g., attending community college in HS). Can't discount the US' world class universities though.

    30. Re:Good Schools by b0s0z0ku · · Score: 1

      Agreed about everything other than the US military. The US military and its contractors have basically become a parasitic entity -- the US would do better if it would mind its business worldwide and put its own house in order.

    31. Re:Good Schools by goose-incarnated · · Score: 1

      you've been infected with the US idea that wealth == value to society

      No, I'm just pointing out how things *are*. If society values teachers then they can pay more and get more teachers. If society wants fewer lawyers, then they can pay less and get fewer lawyers.

      What I think about it is irrelevant because that is how things are. Of all the systems that determine how much of each role is needed in society, then one that lets society self-organise seems to work the best. The central planners who decide what's best for everyone, and how they receive it, and how much they receive of it ... they have the worst societies that their people are actively running away from.

      That $25k/yr teacher? Say she pays 20% effective tax rate. You're left with $20k/yr. Housing? $600/mo or $7200/hr. Down to $12800. Car insurance. $1000/yr, down to $11800. Food, $200/mo or $2400/yr. Down to $9400. Utilities in Arizona, $200/mo, down to $7000. Any student loans? 10% of income, $2500/yr, down to $5500. Car repairs/lease, $2000/yr, down to $3500. Clothing, $1000/yr, down to $2500 for insurance and anything outside of bare necessities. And insurance deductibles in the US aren't zero.

      And yet you think that her time off from work (and time off from getting paid) should be equally probable with someone who doesn't provide society with anything! You just pointed out how close the the bone she is living, yet you think it's fine for her to lose a months income because she's behind someone in the queue? Her financial situation worsens with SPH waiting times; it doesn't get better.

      The point you keep missing is that society doesn't notice and is not impacted when a non-contributor has to wait for a month. Society is harmed when a contributor has to wait for a month. Placing both contributors and non-contributors in the same queue harms society, so in non-centrally-planned societies, society naturally self-adjusts to minimise harm done to it.

      Do the math before you talk how great the US system is.

      You should read carefully instead of replying hastily. I never said it is great. I specifically said it has its own problems. I said that I prefer a system that results in a contributor being able to jump the queue, with bigger contributions resulting in larger jumps. Is it perfect? Well, no - society frequently values things highly while I think those things are worthless (sports stars come to mind) and society frequently values things low while I think those things are valuable (teachers come to mind), however for the clear majority of people their value to society is in the form of their paycheck.

      For 99 out of every 100 people, increasing their contribution to society increases their ability to jump the queue. You are insisting on setting policies for the 100 based on the single outlier and not on the 99 normals.

      --
      I'm a minority race. Save your vitriol for white people.
    32. Re:Good Schools by b0s0z0ku · · Score: 1

      "Nature" is a shitty model on which to run a compassionate society or government. Unless you want slower runners to be eaten for lunch, and I mean literally. Also, who says that the welfare recipient doesn't provide society with anything? For all we know, it could be the teacher's mom, and providing unpaid childcare services for family. Again, money doesn't determine actual use to society. Or else sports stars and bad actresses wouldn't be paid as much as they do.

    33. Re: Good Schools by Lando17 · · Score: 1

      Great example of white privilege here. Please come over if youâ(TM)re black, brown, blue, or other, too! As you can see in the patent post, we need all the help we can get..

    34. Re: Good Schools by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Again, only in Europe would a Swiss and a Polish person in the same room count as diverse.

      A disgusting narrative that is specious virtue signalling.

    35. Re:Good Schools by goose-incarnated · · Score: 1

      "Nature" is a shitty model on which to run a compassionate society or government.

      We aren't running it on a "Nature" model, are we now? A "Nature" model would have the poor people die, and nowhere did I propose that.

      Unless you want slower runners to be eaten for lunch, and I mean literally.

      I didn't propose that either - I said that there are limited services available to fill the demand and that it doesn't make sense for society to harm itself by making the contributers wait instead of making the non-contributors wait.

      If someone has to wait anyway, society is better off by making the non-contributor wait. You are bashing a strawman here, because I did not propose allowing the non-contributors to die and yet you are arguing as if that is what I said.

      There are limited services. Allowing contributors to use their money to jump the queue is not the same as preventing non-contributors from receiving healthcare.

      If someone has to wait, why should it be the contributor? I'm waiting to hear your argument.

      --
      I'm a minority race. Save your vitriol for white people.
    36. Re: Good Schools by b0s0z0ku · · Score: 1

      Think of Europe as USA + Canada + Mexico + some of Central America and you'll get the argument.

    37. Re:Good Schools by b0s0z0ku · · Score: 1

      Consider all humans equal under the law. Anyone with public insurance should be treated first come first served with ability to jump the queue for medical need. I.e. a coronary bypass gets more priority than something like a minor cyst removal.

    38. Re:Good Schools by b0s0z0ku · · Score: 1

      Also, there would be ample money to spend on public medical services if the US didn't piss it away on mass incarceration and military homicide sprees abroad.

    39. Re: Good Schools by fred6666 · · Score: 1

      Only one culture?
      Switzerland is much more culturally diverse than the USA. They have 4 official languages. French and German speaking Switzerland are very different.

    40. Re:Good Schools by dskoll · · Score: 1

      As a Canadian, I am very happy with our health care system. It's been wonderful for me and my family.

    41. Re: Good Schools by dskoll · · Score: 1

      I'd rather pay premiums for a system that works

      The US health care system doesn't work. Americans pay far more per capita for health care than Canadians and have worse outcomes.

    42. Re:Good Schools by c-A-d · · Score: 1

      >public transportation, clean water, free healthcare

      I hate these arguments. Especially #3

      1. Public Transportation is often heavily subsidised by government
      2. I dare you to drink water from Lake Ontario.
      3. It's not free. That's why you pay about 50% of your money into income, sales and excise taxes.

      --
      some karma... and kinda lukewarm about it.
    43. Re:Good Schools by c-A-d · · Score: 1

      I would love to see the US pull back its troops from the rest of the world. And not because they are interfering.

      I just want to watch the rest of the world realise how fucked they actually are and the accompanying weeping and gnashing of teeth.

      --
      some karma... and kinda lukewarm about it.
    44. Re: Good Schools by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      I would disagree on both points. It doesn't work, and the premiums are not reasonable. Premiums look to me to be roughly comparable to what they cost in the US, while the deductibles are marginally lower. Which is broken in either case; if your deductible is in the thousands of $/Sfr and doctors charge hundreds just to see them, only the wealthy will receive medical treatment. I have seen the family of a girl who was incoherent after suffering a head injury refusing to seek treatment for her. And they weren't even wrong - this is a calculus which all families are forced to make in Switzerland unless they are wealthy.

    45. Re: Good Schools by djinn6 · · Score: 1

      I think you have a slightly skewed view of cultural diversity. French and German are pretty similar when compared to Brazil or China. And the US has more of the latter kind of diversity.

    46. Re: Good Schools by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Because they are a member of the EU which requires them to allow citizens of other EU members to be able to move freely. US, Canada and Mexico have no such globalist arrangement. In 2014 the Swiss voted 56.6% to cap EU immigration, the EU pushed back stating

      free movement of persons is a fundamental pillar of EU Policy and that the internal market and its four freedoms are indivisible

      So to maintain access to the one market, the Swiss people were overruled. They changed to a law that avoids quotas on EU immigrants, but prioritizes Swiss job seekers over EU citizens.

      To compare apples to apples, tell us exactly how easy is it for a Mexican to get a work permit in Switzerland? Switzerland just increased their quota limit for non EU/EFTA Class B permits from 3000 to 3500, L permits are at 4500. That would basically equate to 1 or 2 of the caravans coming from South America to the US border.

      Seems like not so much a cake-walk when a city like Basel City uses up their share by January 18, Geneva by Feb 22 and Zurich by the end of March.

    47. Re: Good Schools by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      And if you remove racist idiots, there are no Democrats.

    48. Re: Good Schools by fred6666 · · Score: 1

      Maybe (Switzerland also have immigrants, maybe not as much as the USA I didn't check). However the difference between Switzerland and the USA is that Switzerland has different regional cultures. There is no US state (or even region) which has a majority Chinese or Brazilian population. They are blended through the rest of the majority, English-speaking population. There is not even a US state who's working language is not English.

    49. Re:Good Schools by david_thornley · · Score: 1

      There's plenty of money. The second most expensive medical system on the planet costs, per capita, roughly two-thirds of what the US system does. The US government already spends a lot on medical care (VA, Medicare, etc.), and that per capita amount is about the same as the total expenses in some pretty healthy countries.

      --
      "When you have eliminated the unacceptable, whatever is left, however improbable, must be the truthiness" - Holmes
    50. Re:Good Schools by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      when you have people with no health insurance nor any productive value to offer society, compete for services with productive people.

      Sick people are not productive either. If they get timely treatment regardless of their background, the 'non-productive' become productive again.

      To reiterate: People are non-productive, when they are sick, and because of it. If sick people are not treated, cured, and fixed, then they continue to be non-productive, and thus continue to be burdens to society. If sick people are treated and cured on time in that same queue as those you call "productive", then they can become productive again.

      Your comment advocates for sick and non-productive people to be kept as sick and non-productive, because the healthy and "productive" lot are somehow more important and more deserving by virtue of their not being sick and non-productive.

    51. Re:Good Schools by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      If the U.S. 'minded its own business', Russia and China would take over the entire world, and the U.S. would no longer have any friends and allies who would defend it.

  14. Let me correct that now by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1

    NOPE

    Canadian developer here, and I would rather not go to the United States. Much like everyone else here I have heard some extremely disturbing and negative things about the USA. I also was a trucker and drove through the United states as well as visiting. Quite frankly the poverty can be shocking. I went through some town and the grocery store had nothing fresh to eat, it was all just dry stuff in boxes, the fruit area consisted of two box tops with apples or oranges and they both looked rotted. That was the best food I had come across at any grocery store. The people had some pretty severe dental challenges and seemed a little 'methed up'. Racial slurs seemed to be slung around in the background at lineups.

    None of that even approaches the infrastructure along with toll roads everywhere (you would think one would negate the other, you would be wrong).

    I kept away from drinking the water after hearing about serious problems with heavy metal contamination.

    Should I make the journey my expectation is thus: there would be no job at the end of the rainbow, attempting to chase a fruitless dream would leave me pennyless in a place that HATES poor people and has utilized them for mass entertainment sport (bum fights). Along with nearly daily reports of unarmed (poor) people being outright murdered by police with no convictions.

    There really isn't anything good about the place. That is not just me talking, much of the international community has begun to avoid the united states and will probably continue to do so, we have just throughout our lives seen it decay so much that even if it magically sprang back to glory it probably would not be enough to offset that ingrained memory of what a hell hole it is.

    I and most other developers are doing fine here, I live along a pristine area where eagles follow my bike above on sunny days and I get to see the sunset over the beach. I could not leave a veritable garden of Eden to travel to some polluted backwater police state.

    That is not to say the same is not creeping in here, I lived in Ottawa for 17 years and found it to be a jobless shite hole of people talking about hockey and schools pretending Canada does not have a history of racism and even slavery (we do, we've just tried to eliminate it from the books). I do not want to paint us here as being some how better, I cannot stand people who do that and refuse to be so guilty, we have serious unaddressed and hidden problems as well. We just do not have as many.

    1. Re:Let me correct that now by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Just as an add-on, whenever we get all up in you Americans faces about slavery, we had both black and native slaves from 1500-1800 roughly.

    2. Re:Let me correct that now by 110010001000 · · Score: 1

      "I went through some town and the grocery store had nothing fresh to eat, it was all just dry stuff in boxes, the fruit area consisted of two box tops with apples or oranges and they both looked rotted. That was the best food I had come across at any grocery store."

      Hilarious!

      "I live along a pristine area where eagles follow my bike above on sunny days and I get to see the sunset over the beach. I could not leave a veritable garden of Eden"

      Classic.

    3. Re:Let me correct that now by 110010001000 · · Score: 1

      You also have heavy metal contamination in your lakes and streams due to heavy industry and mining (particularly in Ottawa). You also have a meth problem (particularly in Vancouver). At least you have a eagles fly above your bike when you head to the grocery store.

    4. Re: Let me correct that now by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Meth isn't really a problem in Vancouver. Here it's heroin (more realistically, fentanyl and the like). Creates a distinctly different junkie.

      To the RCMP officer there on his high horse; it sounds like you judge and are terrified by poor people. Typical Canadian handwringing.

    5. Re: Let me correct that now by Type44Q · · Score: 1

      The people had some pretty severe dental challenges and seemed a little 'methed up'.

      I see you've been to Oklahoma, my favorite place ever.

    6. Re:Let me correct that now by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      "I live along a pristine area where eagles follow my bike above on sunny days and I get to see the sunset over the beach. I could not leave a veritable garden of Eden"

      Same in Tallinn, Estonia. Many people bike, the extensive public city transport is free for residents registered in the city. The days are sunny, and there are squirrels running around in city districts with plenty of trees. While we don't have eagles, we have seagulls (white-headed), pigeons, crows, ravens, magpies, swallows, and smaller birds. Even hedgehogs on a good summer night.

  15. need more data by buddyglass · · Score: 1

    Without numbers from other non-US countries to compare against, we can't say whether 27% and 30% are actually that bad. I'd like to see comparison numbers for other commonwealth countries (UK, Australia, New Zealand), the U.S., and possibly Mexico since it's close to the US. It's possible Canada's numbers are "normal".

  16. yeah, but Canada is picking up engineers by WindBourne · · Score: 1

    Seriously, lots of engineers and good non-software talent is leaving America and going to Canada. Smart on their part.

    --
    I prefer the "u" in honour as it seems to be missing these days.
    1. Re:yeah, but Canada is picking up engineers by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      So creimer is never gonna make it? Phew!

  17. Make up your mind. by snoig · · Score: 3, Informative

    So last week all the tech conferences were moving to Canada: https://news.slashdot.org/stor... Two weeks ago all the Engineers were moving to Canada: https://news.slashdot.org/stor... And this week all Canadian tech is moving to Silicon Valley.

  18. they will be back by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    As soon as they want to settle down and raise a family they will flee the extremely overpriced Bay area.

  19. Canada is great! by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0, Insightful

    Canada is great if you are a low skilled, under educated worker.

    If you can turn a bolt, tighten a screw, slap on some paint, or do anything in the auto industry, we will go to great lengths to save your job.

    If you are highly educated though, good luck, f**k you, go work elsewhere, shut up and pay your obscenely high taxes so we can pay some idiot to tighten a bolt. You do electrical engineering? F**k that, unless you are in the auto industry, or oil industry.

    Canada, good to be under educated.
    USA: Sucks to be under educated.

    There must be a middle ground somewhere.

    1. Re:Canada is great! by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      > If you can turn a bolt, tighten a screw, slap on some paint

      If you can't even do that come to Germany. Just toss your passport and claim to be from the middle east or Africa. Bam! Free universal income for you and your family! If you want an even better deal say you're underage. Don't worry, our government agencies are too afraid to question your claims even if you're obviously in your 30s.

    2. Re: Canada is great! by c6gunner · · Score: 1

      If you are highly educated though, good luck, f**k you, go work elsewhere, shut up and pay your obscenely high taxes so we can pay some idiot to tighten a bolt.

      That's supply and demand baby. We spent decades pushing every Joe, Dick, and Harry to get a university degree, and steering them away from the trades. So they went out and got them. Turns out we don't actually need 5 million software engineers and 10 million "communications" technicians, so now only the best of those who got a degree can actually get a decent job. Meanwhile we do actually still need plumbers, mechanics, and general labourers, and since we've successfully depleted the pool of people working in those jobs their value has gone up significantly.

      I tried to explain this to my contemporaries while I was still in highschool but, apparently, "supply and demand" was a difficult concept for the college-bound crowd to grasp.

  20. The 90s called... by iCEBaLM · · Score: 1

    ... and they want their news back.

    Old news is so exciting.

  21. Is anyone surprised? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Trudeau has made Canada into both the baby Wehrmacht and the laughing stock of the world. Innovation isn't possible under socialism/communism as a form of governance and if it does occur, it's only under threat of duress or worse. Too bad, though, that in America these legal visa holders will have to compete with illegal immigrants that overstayed and had children just like Americans have to.

  22. Make up your movement. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Having a common border does demonstrate something lacking between the US and China. The free movement of labor.*

    *Ironically so does the Mexican border.

  23. the week before by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    no worries, the week before, all canadian doctors were leaving canada for the us, make greed great again.

  24. You people are SO FUNNY!!! by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Last month slashdot 'reported' the opposite, that the brain drain was occurring in reverse of this one. People, if you believe 1/10th of what these shitheads display as news you aren't worth a goose's dropping.

    https://www.vanityfair.com/news/2017/07/silicon-valleys-trump-brain-drain-continues
    amd
    https://venturebeat.com/2017/09/20/the-most-attractive-place-for-tech-outside-of-silicon-valley-is-canada/

    Liberals, Fun to laugh at when they are in another country. Sad to have them here.

  25. Old news is OLD by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Jesus, this has been happening for DECADES. Everyone knows this Captain Obvious.

  26. I slowly but surely get it. by Qbertino · · Score: 1

    15 years ago a buddy told me "you have nothing lost here in Germany, you should go check out Silicon Valley". For just about 2 decades I've dealt with plain and utter idiiots when it comes to IT and the Web and professional work in those fields and it's slowly dawning on me: The places where I can meet people who understand me are very rare and one of those places where I would be in my waters professionally is Silicon Valley and the bay area.

    At a certain point it becomes more and more difficult to even move on. I've still go some much to learn and still haven't found a single web agency that has a professional pipeline. For my recent job I'm biulding one now and it's going better than ever, but I still get the feeling that this can't be all.

    The Valley is to IT what Paris is to fashion and Buenos Aires to Tango: other places simply can't compare because they are so far ahead. So, yeah, I get it. SF and the valley is where it's at.

    --
    We suffer more in our imagination than in reality. - Seneca
  27. 1 in 4 seems very very low by FeelGood314 · · Score: 1

    Earlier this year I discovered I only knew one other Canadian born and Canadian university educated engineer still working as an engineer in Canada. Excluding that one person all my class mates are either in the USA, immigrated to Canada as kids or are no longer doing engineering. All but one of my coworkers at my last 4 jobs is foreign born. When I worked in the Bay area I had lots of Canadian born co-workers and friends. I've been asked at engineering pickup soccer games in Ottawa, Canada where my accent is from.

    I don't even work for any Canadian companies, I do contract work for American companies. The pay isn't even close. I probably get 70% more pay working remote for an American company than I would for a local one.

    1. Re:1 in 4 seems very very low by b0s0z0ku · · Score: 1

      By "engineering", do you mean the building-things/designing-things kind, or the appitty-app designer kind of engineer?

    2. Re:1 in 4 seems very very low by dskoll · · Score: 1

      Almost all my Engineering classmates are still in Canada. However, we're actually Engineers, not software developers who call themselves "engineers".

      US salaries are higher, but then you have health insurance expenses and other non-monetary negatives. All in all, I'm happy to stay in Canada.

  28. People read too much into this. by hey! · · Score: 1

    This just means that the Silicon Valley computer industry is larger than any Canadian counterparts. People go where there are the most jobs in their field. Tech companies in particular locate jobs where qualified people are looking.

    That creates a Catch-22, and there's something to be said for a contrarian strategy where you locate jobs where the cost of living means people can live better on lower salaries. But it doesn't entirely negate the networking effect advantages of being the biggest technology center.

    --
    Post may contain irony: discontinue use if experiencing mood swings, nausea or elevated blood pressure.
  29. Wait I thought Trump drove them off? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Slashdot had an article here the other month about how Canada was this bright shining star away from America's horrible racism.

    Guess that's not true like alot of other news.

  30. Opposing News by LuxuryYacht · · Score: 0
    --
    Quidquid latine dictum sit altum viditur
    1. Re:Opposing News by LuxuryYacht · · Score: 1

      Well work "in" vs "on".

      --
      Quidquid latine dictum sit altum viditur
  31. Ignorance is bliss for those that stay in Canada by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Socialized education in Canada pushed me towards work in the trades.
      By the time I graduated - there was no work in the trades, as they suggested the future would hold.
      Even then, my degree was worth toilet paper in the province I got it in.

    Out of school I was offered three or four 30k/yr jobs. With a bachelor's degree.
      Anything that paid more had incredible competition, where 8-10 guys would interview for one spot.

      Living in the Toronto area, you'll spend 50%+ of your income in housing.
      The other half gets taken in taxes.
      There's little/no work outside that sphere for technically-based people.

    Left for the US; Made three times what I made in Canada, in a more rural (beautiful) area, doing tech work, while paying 25% less tax, and paying 10-30% less generally for the cost of living in goods/groceries/etc.

      Healthcare? My employer pays for it. It's better service than I had while under the Ontario system.
      Trump? My life is no different than it was under Obama, except I pay even less tax now, aside from people squawking about the end of times.

      If you're educated, you'll likely get pulled into something like Silicon valley then get stuck there due to cost of living keeping your broke.
      If you're intelligent, you'll make the same money, if not more, and have a far better life in just about any other state that's not along the coasts.

  32. Things are changing really fast... by gwjgwj · · Score: 1

    "Engineers Are Leaving America For Canada" https://news.slashdot.org/stor...

    1. Re:Things are changing really fast... by ooloorie · · Score: 0

      There isn't necessarily a contradiction there.

      Underperforming, leftist engineers leave for Canada.

      Highly skilled engineers come to the US.

      Though: the US is getting less and less attractive for highly skilled engineers as well, given its high taxes and progressive policies.

  33. typical effect of redistribution by ooloorie · · Score: 1

    When you institute redistribution in a society, the people who are redistributed to like it, and the people who are redistributed from leave.

    So, the problem with socialism is not that you run out of other people's money, it's that you run out of highly productive people whose money you can take.

    1. Re:typical effect of redistribution by dskoll · · Score: 1

      What does socialism have to do with Canada? In case you weren't aware, Canada is essentially a free-market capitalist society. Oh sure, we have universal health care, but that's just basic decency for an advanced industrial society.

    2. Re:typical effect of redistribution by c-A-d · · Score: 1

      And if you make it illegal to leave, those productive people become less productive to compensate.

      --
      some karma... and kinda lukewarm about it.
    3. Re:typical effect of redistribution by ooloorie · · Score: 1

      Glad you asked. Canada has a higher level of redistribution and a lower level of economic inequality than the US. On the spectrum of completely free market (no redistribution) to completely socialist (maximum redistribution), it therefore sits closer to the socialist end.

      People usually assume that redistribution is limited by the amount that is available to redistribution; that is, you can't tax the rich at more than 100%. But, in fact, redistribution is limited by labor mobility; that is, if you tax people more than other countries, your people tend to leave. Progressives like to call this "race to the bottom".

      And, no, Canada is not a "free market capitalist society", and neither is the US.

  34. I can read statistics by rsilvergun · · Score: 1

    Canada has better overall health outcomes than the US. That's just a fact. Also, studies show the US would save $17 Trillion (with a 'T') dollars switching to single payer.

    Opponents of single payer like to point out that Canadians come here for heart surgery, ignoring that it's because we have more heart surgeons. Meanwhile 45,000 Americans die every year from completely preventable diseases. I saw a heart doc here for some palpatations. I have some of the best healthcare in the country and he told me to eat better and excersise more. Cost me $800 USD.

    America's healthcare system is awful. You have no idea how good you've got it.

    --
    Hi! I make Firefox Plug-ins. Check 'em out @ https://addons.mozilla.org/en-US/firefox/addon/youtube-mp3-podcaster/
    1. Re: I can read statistics by c6gunner · · Score: 1

      Canada has better overall health outcomes than the US. That's just a fact. Also, studies show the US would save $17 Trillion (with a 'T') dollars switching to single payer.

      Given that total spending is only 3.3 trillion, that would be quite the trick! Maybe you're planning on getting Mexico to pay you for it?

  35. A cursory google search by rsilvergun · · Score: 2

    says Average wait times for surgery in Canada is around 9 weeks. e..g 2 1/4 months. Pretty bad. Same search for US says 12 weeks, e.g. 3 months. Worse.

    Facts are overwhelmingly on the side of single payer healthcare. And this is not at all surprising. When in your life has a middle man been a good thing? Especially a middle man who is actively trying to keep you from using the service you paid for? You do understand that insurance companies make money when they collect premiums and don't pay claims?

    --
    Hi! I make Firefox Plug-ins. Check 'em out @ https://addons.mozilla.org/en-US/firefox/addon/youtube-mp3-podcaster/
    1. Re:A cursory google search by GrabbaTheButt · · Score: 1
      Let's at least be honest. If I need a hip replacement in Canada, I'm going to be waiting a while in line for my free hip replacement.

      If I need emergency life saving heart surgery, I'm on the table near immediately.

      Neither of those will put me in the poor house. I've lived in the US , health care is great, as long as you have great health insurance

      I'm back in Canada now and it's a far superior system for the masses. Perfect? Maybe not, but a damn sight better than what's south of the line.

    2. Re:A cursory google search by ElizabethGreene · · Score: 1

      > Same search for US says 12 weeks, e.g. 3 months. Worse.

      [Citation needed] Details on stuff like this matters, because people /love/ to play around with statistics to make them say what they want. Case in point, dig in and find the parent study those pages are citing. Look closely and I'll wager that the majority of the participants are Medicare recipients in the US and not those on private insurance.

      The surgical wait times for private plans are much shorter than the public plans.

  36. What? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Just a few weeks ago there was an article that Canada was luring educational and tech talent from America. Which is it?

  37. Understandable by neiras · · Score: 1

    I live in Vancouver. I'd totally pack up and head to the states if I wasn't sharing custody of my kids, who go to school here. It's an instant 40% raise as soon as you cross the border, especially when you consider the USD/CAD spread. Salaries in Vancouver are terrible even before you start considering the cost of housing, and the government markets us as a place to get world-class talent at cut-rate prices, so that's unlikely to change.

  38. I did the opposite and had a lot of regrets by ThomasD3 · · Score: 1

    I went from California to Canada. I lived in British Columbia and in Quebec and I really really deeply hated both; it's cold, rainy, boring as hell, and I felt like I had stepped 20 years backward when it came to infrastructure and services. I know that Canadians are raised to believe Canada is the promised land, but the only reasons to like the place is if you love nature (which is amazing there), or you're from there and haven't seen much elsewhere. As someone that spent half his life in North America and half in Europe, I have to say that the only reason i would ever go back there is if we have a world shortage of fresh water and I would need to move there to survive.

    1. Re:I did the opposite and had a lot of regrets by b0s0z0ku · · Score: 1

      Infrastructure and services? What infrastructure? If you were in Montreal, public transit and ability to walk are probably better than in most of California.

    2. Re: I did the opposite and had a lot of regrets by Brockmire · · Score: 0

      He doesn't mention Vancouver. Perhaps he lived on one of the small islands intended for super rich? I can't think of a place without infrastructure, unless he was on a native reserve. The guy certainly never came from Seattle, where broadband is garbage.

    3. Re:I did the opposite and had a lot of regrets by ThomasD3 · · Score: 1

      Internet speed, phone coverage, regular power outages, etc. I lived in Vancouver, BC and, in QC, I was between Quebec and Montreal; Montreal is definitely years ahead of Quebec, no questions about it, but life was still very uncomfortable. Not to mention all the backward things like rules on alcohol purchases, mall closing times, delays to see a doctor, smaller selection in supermarkets, everything priced higher, etc. I had three banks: Scotia, Royal bank and Desjardins and all of them were slower when doing transfers and less accessible when you're trying to solve something (I had a business) than the banks in the US, which are still way behind the EU banks. And all my visitors thought the same as I eventually did: why put the energy to live there and have less comfort? On top of that, I'm a city and night life person and while I understand Canada has a good nature and family appeal, for me there was no pleasure at all. For reference, I was there from '97 to 2000 and in 2011-2012.

    4. Re: I did the opposite and had a lot of regrets by ThomasD3 · · Score: 1

      I lived mostly in the LA area and up North in Redwood city; in both places if you get a business connection, it's solid. In the EU, we had very good connection in Germany. I takes just a few days to see that life in QC is just not as comfortable on pretty much all sensible criteria.

  39. Canada's Graduates != Canadian citizen by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    The article and study fail to highlight the share of graduates that are Canadian citizens in the first place.

    Lots of people from the USA and all around the world come here to study in our universities to enjoy high quality education at relatively low cost. These people naturaly tend to go back to their countries, and many foreigners that are not Canadians/Americans will migrate to the states, Canada is just a bridge to them.

    At my university approximately half the students in engineering were Americans.

    The important point of this study imo is that these graduates either dont apply for Canadian citizenship or get refused.

  40. This is a salary problem by BigDish · · Score: 5, Insightful

    I'm a US citizen that moved to Toronto because I loved the city. What I found is that the tech jobs just don't pay there, while the city is rapidly increasing in price. My understanding is Vancouver isn't much different. I took a pay cut to move there, and ultimately left for a Seattle-based job. After the exchange rate, my salary in Seattle is double that of Toronto - while the cost of living isn't that much more. I talked to many tech people in Toronto, and never found someone who was making 6 figures Canadian even.

    I would love to move back to Toronto, but the low salaries, high cost of living, and poor benefits (most companies only wanted to offer 2 weeks of vacation time, and my company didn't even offer retirement plans) made it a poor financial decision for me. If Canada wants to stop the brain drain, they need to fix the salary problem.

  41. The Salary Differential is Significant by waxoff · · Score: 1

    Late last year a guy named Matthew Harris posted some salary data on Quora comparing the most expensive cities to hire a Python developer in the US and Canada. It costs more to hire a python dev in Madison WI (#5 on the U.S. list) than it does in Ottawa (#1 on the Canadian list) by a wide margin ($95k vs $78.5k). So it seems like the message to Canada is, "Pay up or shut up". In the meantime, I have some great colleagues from up North that I get to work with. https://www.quora.com/How-diff...

  42. Good riddance to the greedy by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    there's so much more to life than an excessive salary. But go ahead, keep your childish materialistic fantasies. Hopefully some more mature and responsible people will be able to fix all the destruction the greedy, irresponsible and selfish people have caused.

  43. Specious Bullshit by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    90% of STEM students at those universities were foreign-born non-citizens. We have a problem with our universities selling out like whores to foreign money and no longer educating our own citizens.

  44. Re: yeah just what we need by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    More shitty brown people with no hygiene, ethics, and zero values consistent with our laws and culture.

    Smelly rapists. Thats what they are. But they vote Liberal so our PM loves them!

  45. Canada vs USA by fluffernutter · · Score: 2

    I looked several times into moving to the US but it never made sense.

    Reasons I never moved from Canada:
    1) I wanted kids, and didn't want to pay for some stranger to bring them to swimming classes, music classes. Having my parents do it saved me thousands, and the kids got to know their grandparents.
    2) I like nature, prefer at least an acre of land. Definitely don't want to live in some concrete land where you can touch your house and the next one at the same time. I like a private lot.
    3) I don't like spending time in a car
    4) Cheap mortgage
    5) We still have communities here. Our kids played on the front street with other kids in the neighborhood, while the neighbors chatted. IN the US it seems like everyone just looks out for themselves.
    6) Peace of mind for healthcare. I have to dick around with insurance companies for dental and I hate it. Can't imagine fighting for health. We ended up having a lot of health issues in my family and I would have hit a lifetime cap a long, long time ago. I would have been bankrupt right now.

    I always put a cost to myself and my family on those things and no matter what job offer came up, it just wouldn't cover it.

    --
    Laws are rules for the court, but merely a bottom bar to hit for life. Think beyond laws in your actions always.
    1. Re:Canada vs USA by b0s0z0ku · · Score: 1

      6) Yep, that's one advantage of public insurance. Lower stress, knowing you and your family have a right to basic health care no matter what...

  46. Re: Damn wrong by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Your ignorant "analysis" of Gladue reports is enough to mark you as an utter moran. Go hang you racist cunt.

  47. Re: Oooh so open! 6% Muzzie! by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Nigga. 6% aint shit.

  48. Re: Daycare and Social Programs by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Quebec has universal daycare. No one else in the country has that.. do the math retard.

  49. the right to bare ARMs by epine · · Score: 1

    Robbing Peter to pay Paul isn't sustainable. :-/

    Yes, but robbing Peter to pay Peter comes a lot closer, both to the truth, and to sustainability.

    I'm going to read that / as a jaunty cigar.

    Have you ever hard that possession is nine-tenths of the law?

    There's a huge government apparatus to (generously) define the boundaries of intellectual property, so that Peter can litigate in public courts (well below the net cost of the institution) to Peter's great advantage.

    Without the fiat power of government, there would be no patent and copyright systems. There would just be trade secrets. Reverse engineering would be the new Right to Bare ARMs. Defamation? Open season, subject only to your powers of economic retaliation. (Just a heads up on that one: the cost of defending turf in the drug trade is very high, and few in the business find themselves on the black side of the ledger for very long—long enough to bling trance some lusty chicks as a young adult male, before they send you off for a couple of years of daily practice in keeping a wet bar of soap on the up and up; this institution is also a great public expense, benefiting the most those who already have the most).

    Peter doesn't really like to talk about how 70% of the defense of property is socialism. Not his favourite talking point, by far.

    So a lot of what Peter sees as excess taxation to Paul's benefit is the chunk the government takes from Peter to fund the giant public industry of keeping Paul from aggressively spilling out of the Paul bucket.

    ———

    Here's another thing. Behind every Peter, there's usually a couple of grand pappy Pauls, who managed to scrounge their way out of the Paul bucket, and not by means that the prevailing Peter ruling class wasn't trying to extirpate by stuffing their fat fingers into every feasible escape option.

    Of course, Paul can invent a better mouse trap. There are at least 200 million Pauls (and Paulettes) in American right now.

    It would only take circa forty million SUCCESSFUL mouse trap innovations per year, to reliably expand the Peter class to universal suffrage.

    The metaphor of the invisible hand is remarkable in having no metabolism. With no metabolism, it never suffers from overwork or fatigue. It never goes "don't fucking bring me one more member of your huddled masses—and I mean it!—I'm totally fucking bagged." So we pretend that a narrow path that works for the special few (driven individuals with broad skills who can maintain a 125+ IQ on an average of five of six hours sleep, long term), that this narrow path can accommodate the entire population, side by side, arm in arm, if only they'd rise up off their lazy asses.

    ———

    While I have few socialist sympathies, I certainly think the wealthy and advantaged complain too damn much about an already good thing. Peter/Paul rhetoric makes me want to puke, because every institution in society has differential Peter/Paul dynamics, and not just the tax system.

    So what really anchors this Peter/Paul meme in the public discourse, despite its superficial stupidity?

    Because there's a severe scarcity of noddables. The tax system is one of the few transfer payments where you get an actual receipt. All of our greedy, self-interested anger over all the ways that our value is transferred to others is focused on that tangible document of distress on tax day. We are, of course, really poor at adding up all the ways that values invisibly comes home to roost in exchange for the taxation exacted. We're neurological wired to always believe that the net transaction is hopelessly rigged.

    So the tax thing is one of the few memes where every agrees to nod together: taxation sucks.

    That's why the slippery Peter/Paul narrative is anchored, first and foremost, to the mechanism

    1. Re: the right to bare ARMs by c6gunner · · Score: 1

      Yes, but robbing Peter to pay Peter comes a lot closer, both to the truth, and to sustainability.

      "A lot closer" to sustainability still isn't sustainable.

      Of course you're not robbing Peter to pay Peter, otherwise there would be no point. You're robbing Peter so that you can pay John, Paul, and Ringo, and then you're give a bit of money back to Peter so that you can pretend you didn't rob him.

  50. Funny by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    I've read in recent times tech talent is leaving the US for Canada due to trump's bigotry towards non-white engineers and talent. I certainly trust the non-american news sources than the merkan propaganda outlets.

  51. Re: Damn wrong by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    I like racists. Theyâ(TM)re probably the last honest people in the western world. And theyâ(TM)re certainly the only ones in connection with reality.

  52. Wait, What? by Greyfox · · Score: 1

    Didn't we just have a story a week or two ago about how Canada's attracting tech talent from the USA? Is it really brain drain if they're draining in both directions?

    --

    I'm trying to teach myself to set people on fire with my mind... Is it hot in here?

  53. Brain Drain? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    So, like always then?

    The US has been a net beneficiary of a worldwide brain drain, for a very long time, a century at least. Silicon Valley is just a geographical manifestation of the opportunities the US can offer.

    In fact it was news when places like India actually had expatriates moving from Silicon Valley, back to India! Dog Bites Man is not a story, Man Bites Dog is a story.

    The current Commander In Chief does seem to want to put a stop to beneficial in-migration for the US though. So much Winning!

  54. Shouldn't Take Long - 2 Schoolbuses by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    That will leave a handful of seats for the hitchhikers they'll pick up on the way out.

  55. Re: Daycare and Social Programs by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    So Quebec has universal child care that the rest of the country pays for. Still doesnâ(TM)t explain the high taxes.

  56. Re: Damn left by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Elections in US are indeed a circus with a high entertaining value, so leaving because of Bush or Obama or Trump is very stupid.

    However, US got a long term isssue : if gradually stops being a white developed country. So there are chances that down in fifty years many might want to emigrate from US but will they find a place to go?

  57. Re: Damn left by b0s0z0ku · · Score: 1

    Development is one thing. No need to bring race into it though.

  58. Re: Damn left by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Japan is the destination then, if white is not the same as developed, or you cannot stand white. (Yes there are poor white countries, mostly Eastern Europe).

  59. Good news for some by russotto · · Score: 1

    People moving for tech jobs are going to be mostly men [citation not needed]. This means that Canada is draining men into the biggest sausage party in the Western Hemisphere. Which means there will be a surplus of women left behind. So, the clever guy who is having some trouble finding himself a girlfriend can just head north and have a darned good chance at picking up a Canadian girlfriend.

    Only downside? Nobody's going to believe he has a Canadian girlfriend.

    1. Re:Good news for some by b0s0z0ku · · Score: 1

      Surplus of men usually results in war or strife of some type. Does this mean that the SF Bay Area will de-evolve into civil war in 10 years?

    2. Re:Good news for some by russotto · · Score: 1

      Surplus of men usually results in war or strife of some type. Does this mean that the SF Bay Area will de-evolve into civil war in 10 years?

      No, all the tech firms provide meals with sufficient soy and other estrogenic compounds to reduce aggressive impulses.

  60. AM radio by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    It must be sad to live in such an oppressive country you aren't allowed to use an AM radio and CB at home. Canadians should rise up!

    You can listen to an AM radio, but only in the morning.
    Cape Breton radio is not that good.

  61. Re: Damn wrong by Brockmire · · Score: 0

    Oh, stop, Shania.

  62. Re: Ignorance is bliss for those that stay in Cana by Brockmire · · Score: 0

    Wtf? Trades are two year programs and you'd be making 40-60k out of school. BC has a hugely retiring trades industry that can take all the grads it can. You're a fucking loser blaming others for your shit life. If you're competent, you don't have a problem in BC. Can't speak for Ontario.

  63. Re: Daycare and Social Programs by c-A-d · · Score: 1

    They have to pay for the Language Police with something. It's a very important government service to deny people the right to use english, which the most commonly used Language in Canada and one of our official languages.

    --
    some karma... and kinda lukewarm about it.
  64. Swear to god by kenh · · Score: 1

    Didn't slashdot run the exact opposite story within the last two weeks about how all the young tech talent was heading to Canada?

    --
    Ken
  65. Re: Damn wrong by Mashiki · · Score: 2

    Your ignorant "analysis" of Gladue reports is enough to mark you as an utter moran. Go hang you racist cunt.

    Go tell it to the 3yr old girl who was repeatedly anally raped by her own father, required 24 surgeries and the native offender was given 6mo weekends only, and was released on his own recog before trial. Why don't you go look up the case on Gerald Stanley, who was put on trial for shooting the native. The native who'd had a laundry list of criminal offenses from assault (physical disfigurement of a person w/weapon), multiple instances of robbery(w/weapon) and so on. Oh did I mention he was a great example of gladue? Just like his parents who were involved in the same thing. He got slaps on the wrist until he got shot and killed while trying to rob someone.

    --
    Om, nomnomnom...
  66. No thanks, USA by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    I'm tired of listening to stories about Trump, poor healthcare coverage and most importantly, all those guns. Goodbye, USA. Keep your wretchedly high salaries and keep bitchin'

  67. What's the alternative, Canada? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Canada's best and brightest are going where they are paid the most. This is how capitalism works.

    The alternative is to impose an Exit Visa system, that forces all Canadians to register with the federal government before they are allowed to leave the country. That way, Canada can ensure that the best and the brightest stay at home against their will. It worked wonders for East Germany. It's definitely a policy for Soviet Canuckistan to consider too.

    Look, Canada might be a great country, but it's teeny tiny compared to the United States of America, which invented the computer, software, networking, and app revolutions. Why on earth would any tech-savvy young adult want to stay in 2nd-tier Canada when they could quite literally walk to the birthplace of innovation?

    1. Re:What's the alternative, Canada? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      You could also impose heavy taxes on the families of the expatriates. In Europe we have a big problem with young people studying on the State's (the citizens') money and then taking off to the US to enrich the US economy to the detriment of Europe. They can go if they want, good riddance, we don't want disloyal citizens here in the EU, but they should not be allowed to do this off European funds. So the best way is to tax their families until they have repaid what their disloyal offspring have stolen. The kids can go to the US and do not bother coming back ever. I'll gladly watch the news of them being shot in the latest massacre. :)

  68. Bad news for... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Canadian zombies!

  69. Wait, what? by cascadingstylesheet · · Score: 1

    Wait, what? I thought Slashdot just told me the other day that they were all fleeing to Canada because Trump.

  70. Re: Damn left by Salgak1 · · Score: 1

    I'm going to disagree partially: heritage and culture have a LOT to do with the success of a nation. Kipling said it best, in "The Sons of Martha"

    The Sons of Mary seldom bother, for they have inherited that good part;
    But the Sons of Martha favour their Mother of the careful soul and the troubled heart.
    And because she lost her temper once, and because she was rude to the Lord her Guest,
    Her Sons must wait upon Mary's Sons, world without end, reprieve, or rest.

    It is their care in all the ages to take the buffet and cushion the shock.
    It is their care that the gear engages; it is their care that the switches lock.
    It is their care that the wheels run truly; it is their care to embark and entrain,
    Tally, transport, and deliver duly the Sons of Mary by land and main.

    Some cultures tend towards 'sons of Martha', and those are the ones that tend to be successful. The problem is, that for all too many of the cultures immigrating in, that the culture of the "sons of Mary" predominate. And when a nation changes from a, for lack of better term, "Marthite" culture to a "Maryite" culture. . . .things get. . . .interesting. In the Chinese sense. . .

  71. Damn right, Canada is a much better place to live by Mister+Null · · Score: 1

    Canada is not experiencing a brain drain to the US but a brain drain FROM the US. And as long as Trump and his policies are in place educated US citizens in the Stem fields will choose to live in Canada rather than stay in the States. So I advise Canada to maintain its immigration policy, you will gain much more than you will lose.

  72. Ok but the data is bad by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Study uses LinkedIn profiles to make generalizations on the profiles of graduating class. Doesn't take a rocket scientist to know this is an extremely biased way of running a study.

    As a Canadian who works in the tech sector... in Vancouver, we have no issues hiring local talent (UBC). Matter of fact - at least 1/3 of applicants for open roles in my company are American. The brain drain is flowing the other way.

  73. Viserion burnt it down by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    We did build a wall. Viserion burnt it down

  74. Communism and its usual consequences by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Raise taxes, indoctrinate people, legislate morality, legislate social justice in all its might, share wealth, support all do-gooder's causes under the sun and create a hellhole where all people are bankrupted, corrupted or fleeing.

    Try a little less Communism, get a little less of the bad consequences. Increase Communism slowly, get the bad consequences more slowly. It's unavoidable.

    I wonder how that works out the same time every time it is tried. The only way to win is not to play.

  75. Politics by DarthVain · · Score: 1

    It is likely this falls under the realm of politics. In Canada we're not all that far away from a Federal election, and indeed Ontario is only a couple months away now. Papers like these are unfortunately used to wave around to support whatever agenda you're trying to espouse, be it how terrible the current government is and the choices the made, or what your plan is for the future and how you would fix the problem in said paper.

    Some of these are more overt than others. Usually coming from a politically biased "think tank" which is funded by like minded politically motivated people/industry. In Canadian politics there is also some severe spending limited as to what you can spend on a campaign and where that money can come from. These "independent" think tanks can be a bit of an end run around some of this by essentially providing "facts" or fodder depending on your political leanings.

    This particular one seems a bit more independent and less overt than some, so it takes a bit of digging to take a more critical look. So while this particular instance is associated with the University of Toronto, it as it's name suggests was largely funded by a fellow called Peter Munk, which brings into question how independent it really is.

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/...

    Apparently there were strings attached to the money that was "donated" in that the school should "fit with the political views and sensitivities of Peter Munk".

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/...

    Which then begs the question about what political views Peter Munk has, and when you look, and see for example that he apparently exceeded donation limits for the Conservative Party of Canada 3 times. So it is safe to say he is pretty right of center politically.

    http://www.cbc.ca/news/busines...

    Soooo after all that, I'd say I would be pretty confident given the conclusions of the study that it will be used by Conservative Politicians around election time to point out how un-competitive we are in comparison to the US and that the obvious solution is to lower corporate tax to attract large tech corporations so that we can keep our tech talent from leaving Canada. Likely also suggest lower income tax for wealthy under the same guise and perhaps other "incentives" to attract corporations like cash bonuses, other waived taxes, real estate etc... I'm reminded of Ontario giving an auto maker 300 million to locate a new plant there, to which they did, while closing one of their other ones located there at the same time... Whoops! Here is 300 million to make a new plant for zero net new jobs.

    Anyway I find it a bit sad that every time I seemingly come across some new "academic" paper purporting new facts, you need to do a critical analysis of where it came from because half the time it is part of some self serving political agenda.

  76. Most informative ^ by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Recent graduates move to Silicon Valley to get the experience, but once they decide to have a family, they'll move back to Canada, because having a child, raising a child (or more than one), and the associated inevitable costs (medical, daycare) are way more affordable back home. That also includes higher education, btw.

  77. Re: Damn left by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Countries with a reasonably high rate of development (most OECD members) are really not interested in all that racist white trash.