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It's 2018 and USB Type-C Is Still a Mess (androidauthority.com)
An anonymous reader shares a column: USB Type-C was billed as the solution for all our future cable needs, unifying power and data delivery with display and audio connectivity, and ushering in an age of the one-size-fits-all cable. Unfortunately for those already invested in the USB Type-C ecosystem, which is anyone who has bought a flagship phone in the past couple of years, the standard has probably failed to live up to the promises. Even the seemingly most basic function of USB Type-C -- powering devices -- has become a mess of compatibility issues, conflicting proprietary standards, and a general lack of consumer information to guide purchasing decisions. The problem is that the features supported by different devices aren't clear, yet the defining principle of the USB Type-C standard makes consumers think everything should just work.
The charging example clearly demonstrates a very common frustration with the standard as it currently stands. Moving phones between different chargers, even of the same current and voltage ratings, often won't produce the same charging speeds. Furthermore, picking a third party USB Type-C cable to replace the typically too short included cable can result in losing fast charging capabilities.
The charging example clearly demonstrates a very common frustration with the standard as it currently stands. Moving phones between different chargers, even of the same current and voltage ratings, often won't produce the same charging speeds. Furthermore, picking a third party USB Type-C cable to replace the typically too short included cable can result in losing fast charging capabilities.
Yet another example of products going out the door while a spec is still in flux -- you get a random collection of things which do and don't work.
This is why being the first adopter of most tech is a dumb idea, because that first generation is going to be shit.
I'm long since over giving a damn about being on the cutting edge, because that edge cuts in more than one direction.
apple missed it up with too few ports when 1 is needed for power.
When you plug a cheap offbrand charging cable into your device, the USB-C standard signals this by emitting a blue flash and burning your device to a crisp. This feature has proven less popular with users than was at first envisioned.
However a USB Cable I got in 1998 will still work with a USB 3 port on my laptop 20 years later.
The general rule of thumb of modern computing is if the connector fits, then it should work. (There are exceptions such cross over cables, and some serial connectors over RJ-45) If that port is a female, three rows, and 15 pins, then that is VGA port, if the device I get from a reputable source has that pin out, and I plug it into my computer, the device should work off of it.
If something is so important that you feel the need to post it on the internet... It probably isn't that important.
I still don't like the fragile tongue inside a USB socket. Why have a relatively easy to break connector on a hard to repair $500 device. Apple got it right. The lightning connector socket on iDevices is a simple hole and is relatively indestructible.
This is almost a textbook example for the "Second System Effect" (Brooks). They put in everything and the kitchen sink. That is about the worst fail in engineering that you can have and still (seemingly) have a specification that looks like it may be possible to implement. Whoever designed this completely forgot that KISS is the prime directive for any form of engineering that needs to work.
Most ACs are not even worth the keystrokes to insult them. Be generically insulted by this and ignored otherwise.
Apple is laughing behind a mountain of $29 lightning cables as the pundit world wanted them to move to USB-C.
Is this whole mess ultimately due to companies trying to charge too much for licenses to their proprietary charging technology?
The real "Libtards" are the Libertarians!
Just last week I plugged a model 3 Tesla into a supercharger. It soaked up electrons at the rate of 120 kW. 300 Amp at 480 v or something insane. And while Tessie is drinking 11 kW in the garage 48 Amp at 240 v, to store enough energy to run the whole house for three days, the cell phone struggles to store 2300 mAh in one hour, enough to run one dinky little phone for 18 hours.....
What a mess...
sed -e 's/Chuck Norris/Rajnikant/g' joke > fact
Crossover is (mostly) fixed by automatic MDI/MDI-X detection in GbE. Has been a while since I ran into that problem. I do fully agree though. The problem is that the USB-C spec tries to do _everything_, and that cannot work. It is also a stellar example of a really bad design done by smart, but inexperienced engineers. Or by engineers that ignored their experience because they were part of a committee. Kiss rules all engineering that needs to survive in practice. There is no KISS at all in USB-C.
Most ACs are not even worth the keystrokes to insult them. Be generically insulted by this and ignored otherwise.
After learning the mistake of buying really cheap USB-C cables, does anyone still have a problem with them? I'm surprised.
You are welcome on my lawn.
Chief, in my opinion, amongst its many problems is that it's a standard without any form of independent regulatory or licensing body to render verdict on the thousands of devices out there are "compliant" or "not compliant". When I was still doing hardware development, no one wanted to touch USB, it is such a nest of hard problems and impossible solutions. Even things as simple as memory keys might, or might not work on a given host controller and/or with a given version of an operating system. Most of them provably did not obey the electrical spec (pirate code?), but that's ok because most laptops out there did not either, creating some fun and dangerous scenarios which I'm not going to outline here.
And the electrical spec was at least simple to read. The protocol and software spec is much more involved and implementations varied even more wildly.
At the core USB is like it is to ensure a wide ecosystem of cheap components that was all inclusive, and could be easy made in any cheap shop in China. Possibly this is good, in that it ensures access to small and large outfits equally, and in a place like china where one US cent is a big deal, it let everyone in. On the other hand, sometimes that corner you cut shouldn't have been cut and while the device may "work" it doesn't actually work as intended, across the board. And so other standards would require you have your device tested and certified, and made to work as intended. That doesn't really exist for USB. People throw the logo on and launch their stuff out there without any consideration. Then when it doesn't work, they say it's not compatible with X or Y. To a customer, we're left with "what the fuck, is it USB or not?".
Input devices like keyboards, mice, trackballs and drawing tablets are USB1.
It sucks to plug your laptop in to your $250+ USB-C docking station then have the battery die before the end of the day since most high-end laptops need more power than that.
And they also dropped the ball by removing the classic USB 3.0 type A ports at the same time. What was the point of that? You can have both USB 3.0 and USB-C on the same computer.
#DeleteFacebook
I've had very little problems getting USB 2.0 or 3.0 speeds over most USB 1.1 cables under 6 feet in length.
Still waiting on Serviscope_minor to wake up to fucking reality and realize that Jessica Price isn't going to fuck him.
The standard was set by the same morons who brought you "USB high speed" vs "USB full speed". To this day, I still don't know off the top of my head which one is USB 1.1 and which USB 2.0. I always have to google it.
In addition to all the madness with charging, they also screwed up the USB 3.x nomenclature. We had a golden opportunity here to leave USB 3.0 referring to USB-A ports (add an extra revision for higher speeds), and have USB 3.1 ref to USB-C ports. That way if you saw USB 3.0 in the specs, you'd know it was a type A port. If you saw USB 3.1 in the specs, you'd know it was a type -C.
Instead they decided to rename USB 3.0 as USB 3.1. So if you see just "USB 3.1" it's referring to a older USB-A style port. If you see "USB 3.1 type C" it's referring to a USB-C port. Unless of course the manufacturer decides to omit "type C" and just call it USB 3.1 in the specs which it's actually a USB-C port. I've had to resort to looking up laptop reviews and viewing pictures of the ports on the sides to confirm exactly what ports it has and doesn't have.
It's like they intentionally trying to make it more confusing.
It looks like everything performs and interoperates according to spec. It seems like a bonus that when you buy premium hardware with proprietary features, it performs even better.
It takes courage to take away USB-A's as well...
Having gone through this trying to get a charger for my S7, it's cluster fuck of a mess. Between different voltages, different power control versions (even different terminology - "quick charge" is not the same across vendors), different physical connectors, the combination of options is mind numbing.
Technically bleeding edge "USB 3 C" is USB3.2-C Gen 2, PD 2.1 (Rev 3) +/- Micro/mini.
What people typically end up with is USB3.0 or 3.1 Gen _1_ and unless you're looking out for it, the number of devices which even support higher speeds is quite small. Finding hardware (hubs in particular), that don't outright LIE about their support in almost impossible. There is literally an application from a google dev that tests for compliance (at least to the best it can). It's called Ampere. You see the newer standards require physical hardware to take a more active role in the process. Cables have to negociate with devices what they can support leading some vendors to outright lie so they could ship cables with smaller wires for example.
The UI for all of that is .. retardedly complex and non-existant on a lot of hardware.
so apple can sell $29.99 adapters
apple missed it up with too few ports when 1 is needed for power.
Who was talking about Apple?
And you think FOUR USB-C/TB 3 Ports is too few?!?
I recently had need to replace the charger on my laptop. While I had an older style charger, it also sported a type-c charging port. So I went out and bought a decent type-c charger, claiming over 60W delivered power, supporting all the standard Power Delivery protocols. I plug it into my computer and while it recognizes that the charger is connected it decides not to charge. I thought the standards and protocols were existed solely to eliminate this scenario.
USB Type-C equipped devices can also be limited to USB 2.0 speeds.
And they also dropped the ball by removing the classic USB 3.0 type A ports at the same time. What was the point of that? You can have both USB 3.0 and USB-C on the same computer.
And you can use any USB 3.0 device with a USB-C port with a cable change or a $2 passive adapter.
Now what?
Apple's first MacBook with USB-C/TB had only one port. The Pro's that came out a couple years later had 4.
And they also dropped the ball by removing the classic USB 3.0 type A ports at the same time. What was the point of that? You can have both USB 3.0 and USB-C on the same computer.
Eliminating the USB 3.0 ports allowed Ive to shave another 0.01mm off the thickness of the laptop.
Of course, you're not supposed to think about the fact that you now have to carry around a dock, in addition to your laptop, if you need to use any ports other than USB-C. Nor are you to think about the crap keyboard you'll have to put up with, going forward.
#Courage
#DeleteChrome
You bought into Apple 's proprietary connector. You deserve to be fucked.
Crossover is (mostly) fixed by automatic MDI/MDI-X detection in GbE. Has been a while since I ran into that problem. I do fully agree though. The problem is that the USB-C spec tries to do _everything_, and that cannot work. It is also a stellar example of a really bad design done by smart, but inexperienced engineers. Or by engineers that ignored their experience because they were part of a committee. Kiss rules all engineering that needs to survive in practice. There is no KISS at all in USB-C.
SpaceX were able to land their booster on a tiny boat and a symmetrical connector that can Charge/Send Data/Video & Audio Transmission is the definition of "anything but KISS"?
I mean, come on. This is this isn't rocket science, stop messing with the damn standard with all those proprietary charging technology.
Elok
I've had very little problems getting USB 2.0 or 3.0 speeds over most USB 1.1 cables under 6 feet in length.
Really? Your USB 1.1 cables have the extra pins necessary for USB 3.0 speeds?
Stop lying.
No, you can't. The official recommendation for the flagship phones with USB C connectors and USB 3's fast charging / power delivery shit is to ONLY use a C to C cable. They explicitly state things are NOT supported with an A to C cable or adapter.
Apple's first MacBook with USB-C/TB had only one port. The Pro's that came out a couple years later had 4.
Well, I agree that the first (non-pro) MacBook that had only 1 USB-C Port was a mistake; but it was not alone. There was a Pixel 2 (IIRC) notebook that was the same way.
I guess they both assumed that inexpensive USB-C Docks would take care of it, and they probably have to a large extent.
"And it's going to be slow and shitty because it's USB 1... so what's even the point of that?"
I have lots of stuff from 2000 that still work fine... barcode scanners, label printers, lego mindstorms, its nice its not a hassle to use them... well it is with USB-C only devices, but most laptops from sensible vendors still have USB-A ports.
No, you can't. The official recommendation for the flagship phones with USB C connectors and USB 3's fast charging / power delivery shit is to ONLY use a C to C cable. They explicitly state things are NOT supported with an A to C cable or adapter.
If you are talking about charging, then that is an entirely different story. I was talking about data transfer (with maybe minimal power supplying, like to a USB-stick).
USB 3, like PCIe, uses multiple serial lanes for increased bandwidth. Each lane is entirely independent with its own synchronization and clock, which is what makes it still a "serial" connection by definition, not a "parallel" connection.
They cut off that part of the footage because the rocket crashed
love is just extroverted narcissism
This comment documents you've never used USB-C in your life.
The USB-C connector is what USB should have been from the start. Yes, PD (Power delivery) is optional and you have to be a smart consumer. And it's been knowledge for years now that cheap chinese OEM's were producing non-standard compliant cables and devices that could actively harm compliant devices because the cables and chargers did not meet the spec. That's not USB's fault.
Most of those problems are behind the standard. People also forget that it takes a LONG time for new USB standards to become dominant, USB itself took a decade to become commonplace. USB mini and micro took similar time frames and we aren't anywhere near 10 years yet for USB-C.
Frankly having moved most of my devices to USB-C I love the standard. I don't have to worry about orientation when plugging it in and dealing with the quantum effect where you always have to flip over the USB connector twice to get it to plug in. Not only that but USB-C is the most durrable connector the USB committee has ever approved. And on top of that the Power delivery spec was integrated into the main spec and made standard. In addition the spec has legs in that it can be expanded for increased data transfer much easier than past standards without changing the connector.
USB-C is a god send.
I admit to not looking at these things closely. However, all of my devices now have USB-C and I find it very convenient. I haven't noticed any charging time issues, but I haven't really been paying attention. Maybe for the casual user (most of us), USB-C has worked pretty well?
Not to mention that USB 1.1, USB 2.0 and USB 3.0 are not equivalent to a specific speed. Rather, USB 1.1 specifies low speed (1.5Mbit/s) and full speed (12Mbit/s), USB 2.0 adds high speed (480Mbit/s), and USB 3.0 adds superspeed (5.0Gbit/s). But you can very well have e.g. a USB 2.0-compliant device that works only at full speed.
I'd give my right arm to be ambidextrous.
I think you're wrong. Firstly, USB 3.0 includes the old USB 2.0 wires plus the new USB 3.0 wires so to speak ; there's no multi-lane operation there.
I then had to check, on wikipedia. USB 3 does have two differential pairs (plus one for USB 2.0). So there are two lanes, but they are for full-duplex. Might be a nice feature and you're not so wrong, but there's USB 3.2 which actually does dual lane transfer on USB-C cables : 20 Gbit/s, or 10 Gbit/s (which might work on cables rated for 5 Gbit/s but not USB 3.1 10 Gbit/s)
Yup. AT vs XT keyboards, RS232, bus mice, ADB mice, expensive SCSI flatbed scanners, and proprietary cards for handheld scanners.
I remember hotplugging my AT keyboard and blowing a fuse on my motherboard, luckily it was easily fixed with a soldering iron.
IEEE 1394 (Firewire) was pretty nice. But Apple had a lot of fucking balls copying the Gameboy link cable connector then charging $1/port. The power delivery was considered problematic for some because of the large voltage range allowed. But a buck circuit is considered pretty normal these days so I think the limitations were overblown.
“Common sense is not so common.” — Voltaire
Since the original post is badly mis-formatted, I will instead re-post the evergreen USB Forum Gas Gauge in new streamlined form to help remind you that Full is less than High:
Empty -> Low -> Full -> 2x Full -> High
"There is more worth loving than we have strength to love." - Brian Jay Stanley
No, you can't.
Yes, you really can. The devices will charge, they simply will not use fast charging. Slower but still functional. "No you can't" would imply it does not work at all.
"There is more worth loving than we have strength to love." - Brian Jay Stanley
Coming next : No ports at all.
Now that would be "courage"
aaaaaaa
USB-C is a god send.
Well, there is the problem.
We're all athiests.
Faster! Faster! Faster would be better!
Is this a null-modem cable?
Is this a cross-over cable?
Is this a TTL device?
Is this 5V, 3.3V, 1.8V, 9V, -11 V?
Except now:
Is this a charge cable or a data cable?
Can it support USB 3.1?
Can this port support Thunderbolt? WTF Apple.. how did this end up as part of USB3.. and why don't all your ports support it?
Is this a hub or a power passthrough adapter?
Can I buy a hub?
Can I buy a hub for less than $200?
How do I search for a fucking hub?
Thundebolt ? That thing compatible with nothing else ?
aaaaaaa
>>burning your device to a crisp
That's patented By Samsung!
aaaaaaa
I prefer the Objective-C standard which is syntactic sugar on the USB-C which allows the device to interpret the message from the computer to the device however it wants to. It can proudly be a USB-1 if it wants to even if the computer is shouting USB-C messages at it.
Some drink at the fountain of knowledge. Others just gargle.
If you put the kinks out of the pipes of the kitchen sink, it will become very smelly.
aaaaaaa
No shit.
Replacing a quality cable with a long, shitty one full of thin aluminium or steel cored cable is going to reduce the charging speed of anything.
Devices only draw current until the voltage at the device drops to a predetermined level. The more voltage drop on your cheap ebay cable, the lower the current that will be used to charge the battery.
Same with crappy connectors with inadequate gold plating. Once the gold layer wears off, it will corrode. You'd best hope it doesn't do so while plugged in your phone, or you'll need to replace the phone connector too.
Chances are it will though, with the corrosion accelerated by the current flow between the pins across the oil from your greasy fingers and pocket-sweat.
There's actually two version of USB 3.1.
USB 3.1 Gen 1 = 5 gbit/s
USB 3.1 Gen 2 = 10 gbit/s
Yes, USB nomenclature is a clusterfuck
Life is not for the lazy.
Oh good, your singular anecdotal experience with one device disproves all the contrary anecdotal evidence. Thank you, thank you, thank you! /s
FTFY
Situation: There are 14 competing USB standards.
-Ridiculous! We need to develope one "Universal USB" standard that covers everyone's use cases.
-Yeah!
(Soon:) Situation: There are 15 competing USB standards.
(I thought USB was ridiculously non-universal back when 3.0 had been released. I don't even have any devices for type C.)
Escher was the first MC and Giger invented the HR department.
In 2011, the highest-end MacBook Pro had power, 3x USB-A, ethernet, headphone, cardbus, and a card reader. That's 8 ports.
Today, the highest-end MacBook Pro has 4x USB-C and a headphone jack. That's 5 ports, and we need dongles for USB-A, ethernet, and a card reader. I'll grant that cardbus is largely replaced by thunderbolt, but the overall situation is still a massive step backward in portability and capability, if you use any peripherals.
APK quotes people (including myself) without context and should not be trusted. Just thought you should know.
Actually, the cable would run at usb 2 speeds if plugged into a USB 3 port. The cable is missing wires for the faster speed of usb 3.
I tend to generally agree.
USB-C is in its USB1.1 phase of life -- its still pretty flaky, and the garbage cables and poor implementations and so on plagued early USB too.
Short term USB-C is already useful despite the issues, and long term it will be fantastic.
My only real grievance is that some vendors like Apple went all in. A USB-C port or 2 on a new laptop is quite desirable. ONLY USB-C ports on a new laptop OTOH is idiotic.
And it's been knowledge for years now that cheap chinese OEM's were producing non-standard compliant cables and devices
This! I've got a drawer full of USB A, B, C,1,2,3 mini, micro and iPhone both Thunder and Lightning that don't work properly. Cheap cables have always been flaky, this is nothing new to USB-C. I've also got a ton of old headphones that only work in one ear for the same reason
And they also dropped the ball by removing the classic USB 3.0 type A ports at the same time. What was the point of that? You can have both USB 3.0 and USB-C on the same computer.
That's why I got a Dell XPS. Small, light AND powerful, and has regular power jack along with USB-C and USB-A
again non-Apple-users educating everyone what a fail Apple products are.
If only they could fail once in their life so successfully as Apple does...
MBP user here, travelling very happy with two ports and a tiny USB-C to -A / HDMI Adaptor bought for €10. Every external device I use works fine and the stuff I carry is greatly reduced. Maybe because I didn't buy the cheapest Chinese cables / power banks / chargers ?
That I can still use it, even if it's the only cable I've got.
Browsing at +1 - no ACs, I ignore their posts. So refreshing!
No one holds up Google's hardware design as "world class". Many here (and elsewhere) espouse Apple's hardware design as "world class". Shipping a laptop with a single connector for everything is decidedly NOT "world class". Yet because APPLE - we have to assume it was the right choice anyway, and the rest of the world is too stupid to realize it.
Browsing at +1 - no ACs, I ignore their posts. So refreshing!
Paid lots of money for my charger - which is why I have only one :(
Unlike old USB where I had cables in every room!
In 2011, the highest-end MacBook Pro had power, 3x USB-A, ethernet, headphone, cardbus, and a card reader. That's 8 ports.
Today, the highest-end MacBook Pro has 4x USB-C and a headphone jack. That's 5 ports, and we need dongles for USB-A, ethernet, and a card reader. I'll grant that cardbus is largely replaced by thunderbolt, but the overall situation is still a massive step backward in portability and capability, if you use any peripherals.
Wrong.
It is neither.
In fact, it it is far MORE flexible, unless you rely on FireWire (which is still possible; but your choices are quite limited). And as far as total available "fanout", there is simply no comparison with any other laptop with ANY combination of dedicated ports you care to name.
You really should have a look inside a USB 3.0 plug some time. Besides the four regular USB 1.x/2.x contacts up front there are five new contacts further in.
As an owner and user of both, I wholeheartedly disagree.
APK quotes people (including myself) without context and should not be trusted. Just thought you should know.
No one holds up Google's hardware design as "world class". Many here (and elsewhere) espouse Apple's hardware design as "world class". Shipping a laptop with a single connector for everything is decidedly NOT "world class". Yet because APPLE - we have to assume it was the right choice anyway, and the rest of the world is too stupid to realize it.
I am ABSOLUTELY with you that the single USB-C MacBook was a "what were they thinking?" moment! I guess the idea was that you would get an appropriate Dock that had a port-compliment to suit your needs.
Problem was, when that original MacBook with the single USB-C came out, there really wasn't that spectacular, to put it mildly. Now, it is quite different! There are several inexpensive (~$50) USB-C Docks that have a typical compliment of, for example, 3 or 4 USB 3.0 Ports, an SD/MiniSD (and sometimes also a CF) slot, Gigabit Ethernet, 4k HDMI out (and sometimes VGA), and occasionally even Audio I/O, plus a pass-through USB-C charger port.
We've had this discussion before.
Again, you've clearly never used USB-C to make that claim. The USB-C connector is at least as durable as A if not more so. I've lost A connectors and cables before, I've never lost a USB-C cable (knock on wood) yet. The connector might be smaller but it's also a lot more durable in that all the pins are inside the connector and protected. It also has a definite audible and touch sensitive click when inserted so that you know when it's connected.It's the first USB with that by the way. Micro was like trying to insert jello into a straw, you never had any idea if it was inserted or not and A/B weren't much better on that front.
And USB-C is miles better than micro which had to have a new cable every six months because daily use would destroy the connector.
While having a poka-yoke connector is good, what made USB 1 so successful was that it was simpler and cheaper than the competitors. The Apple dock connector had 30 pins, including dedicated pins for audio, video, power, media control, serial, usb, and firewire. RS232 had 9 and had no error correction, no metadata, no power, and was slow. Firewire with a lean 6-pins allowed for bidirectional communications and was essentially a peer-to-peer network. USB had a mere 4 pins, was unidirectional, and didn't require the devices to know how to talk to each other (hence the need for a hub). It was technically inferior, but won because of price. USB2 merely improve the speed and power of USB1, so it was a no brainer to win in the market.
USB 3 abandoned the simplicity that made USB 1 and 2 successful. It took the kitchen sink model, and it is flailing the same way it's predecessors did when they took that approach.
As an owner and user of both, I wholeheartedly disagree.
What do you need to fan-out to, that cannot be found in one, or at most, two inexpensive (around $50 apiece) USB-C Docks these days?
All I want to know is why the fuck can I not buy a car charger that has two USB-C ports and is capable of fast charging? No, I don't want a USB type A and a USB type C port. No, I don't want an integrated USB type C cable and a USB type C port. I just want a car charger with two fucking USB type C ports, no integrated wires, no type A ports, that charges rapidly.
No one cares what your captcha was
Houston TX, USA
And therein lies my point: docks aren't portable.
APK quotes people (including myself) without context and should not be trusted. Just thought you should know.
Perhaps the ugliest plug in creation, but impressive how it finesses USB 1/2 compatibility. Impressive in a horrific kind of way.
When all you have is a hammer, every problem starts to look like a thumb.
Why would 'scientist' imply 'atheist'?
CLI paste? paste.pr0.tips!
Not only that but USB-C is the most durrable connector
It's hurr durrable.
I miss RS-232 where you didn't need a 'stack' and layers of protocol to get hardware to communicate. But plain old serial isn't DRM-compatible.
Logic, intolerance of many religious people to ideas that touch on their 'beliefs'. Programmers have to test their hypothesis over and over again, they can't just believe, at least in the domain of their code. I think this tends to select for skeptical types. I remember in probably kindergarten when I asked "so if god created us, who created god"? Silence greeted me, finally told "we don't ask that question". Sure, I'm generalizing, many people can separate science and logic from religious thought or are comfortable separating them. Some of my friends are even religious. /s
USB-A is pretty darn robust on the whole, though I have bent the occasional housing by stepping on them. Chances are you just haven't used USB-C enough to have a similar number of failures. :-)
That said, I agree that micro-B was a disaster, and micro-B 3.0 doubly so, for all the reasons you mentioned. USB-C is what micro-USB and mini-USB should have been.
Check out my sci-fi/humor trilogy at PatriotsBooks.
> could actively harm compliant devices because the cables and chargers did not meet the spec. That's not USB's fault.
Nobody can reasonably blame a standard for someone wiring up a data-only line with out of spec voltages, but the whole design of USB-C's power delivery relies on accessory manufacturers doing the right thing. The same manufacturers who produced ultra-cheap, out of spec cables for every previous version of USB.
The engineering methodology for dealing with unknown quantity/quality power supplies has been very well established for a long time; that USB 3.1 type C decided to just ignore it and hope that accessories were manufactured correctly is a huge missed opportunity. By flubbing the power delivery specs at this stage we're landed with a legacy of crappy, dangerous cables for the life of the standard, which could be another 20 years...
My wife broke the USB-A tongues on most of the USB ports in the Dell Latitude. So I got cheap and ordered a replacement subassembly board for the Latitude second hand on eBay. The first one I ordered arrived... with a broken-tongue connector on it.
Guess the downmodders are too stupid to understand the Shannon-Hartley Theorem.
Still waiting on Serviscope_minor to wake up to fucking reality and realize that Jessica Price isn't going to fuck him.
When you have to use those ports to charge and connect screens, yes it is too few. But at least it's still got a headphone jack.
The USB-C connector is what USB should have been from the start. Yes, PD (Power delivery) is optional and you have to be a smart consumer. And it's been knowledge for years now that cheap chinese OEM's were producing non-standard compliant cables and devices that could actively harm compliant devices because the cables and chargers did not meet the spec. That's not USB's fault.
Would those be USB 2.0, USB 3.1, USB 3.1 Gen 2, USB Full Featured, USB Superspeed, USB Superspeed+ or Thunderbolt3 USB-C cables that you are talking about?
I only listed three different types of cables there but they are all different markings and symbols which are commonly used. Apart from the symbol on the plug all the cables are of course identical. Then add power delivery and PD variants of the logos. Non-compliant cables are yet another but relatively small issue, though the ones that carry the compliance logos and slide into the supply chain can be scary.
When people get confused the better solution is not to say that they aren't smart enough, but consider if there are issues with the product.
Costly/Expensive, confusing, pain in the arse, etc. I'll just stick with the older stable stuff like USB(1-3).
Ant(Dude) @ Quality Foraged Links (AQFL.net) & The Ant Farm (antfarm.ma.cx / antfarm.home.dhs.org).
This has become an entire debacle. I don't even need to read the article to agree with it.
Nerds have had to look for "Bensen Approved" cables on Amazon, thanks to his efforts reviewing cables. But he can't review every product on earth.
The complexities of USB-C is awful, terrible. The potential to fry devices, the potential to buy cables which don't run at the right speed, the potential to buy cables which don't transmit video or something you're after.
Total and utter mess, truly is.
You can no longer visit a pals office or home and just borrow a cable and plug your device in. It might charge terribly or blow up.
I do not know what is going to be done to fix this but as it stands, adoption seems atrociously slow. I personally own 0 devices and have no intention of picking any up, any time soon.
That's funny. I've had just the opposite experience with type C. The only device I've had with type C was my Nexus 5X. After a few months the connector became so loose that I couldn't hold the phone and charge it without pushing the connector into the phone constantly. Eventually the data part wouldn't connect at all. It died after two years for unrelated reasons. But I never had connection problems like that with any phone using Micro USB, including my current one which has a micro port in the same place as the Nexus had the type C port.
(T>t && O(n)--) == sqrt(666)
It's a problem with those who make these implementations, not the standard.
Badly written article.
The device has one type of port, for everything. Am I right in my belief that you can plug your power supply into any of those ports? If so, Apple have solved the connector problem (well, I guess USB-C has solved the connector problem), and it's just a matter of waiting for everyone else to catch up.
So, where do I plug in ethernet and a memory card?
Ah....... yeah.... into dongles I probably didn't bring with me because having to carry them makes the machine less portable. There's a reason the 2011 model is the one I bring on site with me; compared to the bag of dongles I need to carry since I don't know what I might encounter in an office I haven't been to before, the 17" model that actually has ports is more portable.
APK quotes people (including myself) without context and should not be trusted. Just thought you should know.
You can, but USB 3 doesn't (use signal differentiation to get gigabit speeds down USB 1/2 cables).
Learn how to speak English, nerd ;)
Had the same issue on my phone. Turned out to be a collection of pocket lint in the connector. After using a needle to pull out some dust from the connector it stuck securely and charged fine again.
USB 3.0 is the protocol. It supports various types of cable. If you want higher speeds you need a SuperSpeed cable and port (coloured blue). USB-C is just a connector, it can work with USB 1.1 through to 3.1, by itself it doesn't give you any extra functionality.
It's like SCSI back in the day. You had SCSI, SCSI 2 and SCSI 3 which were the protocols. SCSI 2 introduced support for removable drives and peripherals like scanners, for example. But then you also had various different physical layers. SCSI, Wide SCSI, Ultra Wide SCSI, fibre channel, LVDS, LVDS single ended, 25 pin, 50 pin, 68 pin, 80 pin...
I agree they need to communicate this better. They have always been terrible at doing that.
const int one = 65536; (Silvermoon, Texture.cs)
SJW, n: "Someone I don't like, and by the way I'm a fuckwit" - AC
Maybe you forgot what a mess USB 1 was... Keyboards that didn't work in the BIOS, for example. It wasn't until USB 1.1 that it got half way good, and it only really took off with USB 2.0 which finally offered enough speed for things like external drives and scanners.
const int one = 65536; (Silvermoon, Texture.cs)
SJW, n: "Someone I don't like, and by the way I'm a fuckwit" - AC
The use USB 1.1 speeds, aka low speed (1.5Mb) or full speed (12Mb). However, you are supposed to certify them against the latest version of the spec, so most peripherals around today are USB 2.0. They only use the lower speed but they use the USB 2.0 protocol and should pass the USBIF 2.0 test suite.
const int one = 65536; (Silvermoon, Texture.cs)
SJW, n: "Someone I don't like, and by the way I'm a fuckwit" - AC
Err no. What made USB 1 so successful is the idea of one connector for all devices. USB 3 didn't abandon that, it extended that. USB 3's problem is that much of the standard is optional. You can't just plug a USB C display into a USB C port and expect it to work, you need to read fine print.
The most annoying part is that to actually test your device for full USB 2.0 compliance you need some expensive and hard to find equipment. The test suite only officially works with a bunch of ancient powered hubs, and you need several of them because the test suite needs to check compatibility with daisy chained controllers. Oh, and you need an Intel USB 2.0 chipset on your PC because they have a special compliance testing driver.
Things got a bit better with USB 3.0 in that you can just buy a compliance testing rig. It's very expensive but at least it's simple and available.
Well, the other problem is that to fully support the USB spec and pass the test suite your firmware needs to be quite complex and implement a bunch of rarely used stuff. Most manufacturers supply a stack that passes the suite, but it can be too large to fit into small bootloaders and the like, and of course you still need to get the electrical side right.
const int one = 65536; (Silvermoon, Texture.cs)
SJW, n: "Someone I don't like, and by the way I'm a fuckwit" - AC
While that's er admirable, I'd disagree on this case. If nothing else it means me and my SO can use each other's chargers despite having different brands of laptop (and phone in my case). It's like the old transition of phones to USB micro.
Some combos probably charge slower, but I've never checked. Mostly it's just a case of grabbing a charger and who cares if one of us left a charger at work.
SJW n. One who posts facts.
Anecdote duel time! I had a nexus 5 and a nexus 6. The usb micro in the 5 and a bit dodgy, the nexus 6 broke completely. I blocking I hate those awful little micro ports.
SJW n. One who posts facts.
Instead they decided to rename USB 3.0 as USB 3.1.
They did nothing of the sort. USB 3.0 and USB 3.1 are different standards, one of which optionally offers double the data rate of the previous one using either A or C connectors.
USB-C is an independent standard from the main USB protocol and neither requires the other. Some additional substandard do however require USB-C such as USB Power Delivery 2.0 or USB Alternate mode.
The only thing at all confusing is that alternate mode is optional, otherwise any device with a certain connector type can plug into any host with a certain connector type.
The casual users will get more confused as the spec stretches a bit. Does a casual user have a crazy use case like attaching an external display? That is a problem. Does the casual user have a use case where their laptop charges via the USB-C port? That is a problem. Maybe you want to game on your laptop so you decide to buy an external GPU. It has a USB-C connector and cable, no problem right? But does your laptop's USB-C port support Thunderbolt? Did you just spend $500 on a paperweight? Who knows!
Yes the casual user won't care if their phone is a bit slower to charge, but that is hardly the biggest complaint, and the complaints are going to get worse as more devices come to the market.
Thing is, "where does it call come from" is a pretty legitimate question, and it doesn't necessarily conflicts with science. For example one could believe in some sort of god that made the universe the way it is, laws of nature and all, and didn't really interact with the whole thing afterwards.
Pretty much like the idea that we might be in a simulation. The simulation could be completely consistent with the way we model the world scientifically, but that doesn't mean there's no basement-dwelling neckbeard actually running the simulator, which for our purposes would be 'god'.
CLI paste? paste.pr0.tips!
First off, if you have small children. MicroUSB was a nightmare. The cables failed so quickly, and often the charging port itself would fail within a year's time making the device useless.
My kids now have USB Type C phones. The cables endure several months of small children. The devices are still going strong. They charge faster, are more reliable. Even the cheap ones off Amazon and from $5 Below.
So you know what? They might not have lived up to the hype. It might be confusing as to how to achieve the highest data transfer rates and fastest charging. That said, even the base ones are a 1,000x better than MicroUSB.
So I pretty much call it as "Hell ya, this is way effing better, success."
The USB-C connector is what USB should have been from the start. Yes, PD (Power delivery) is optional and you have to be a smart consumer. And it's been knowledge for years now that cheap chinese OEM's were producing non-standard compliant cables and devices that could actively harm compliant devices because the cables and chargers did not meet the spec. That's not USB's fault.
And on top of that the Power delivery spec was integrated into the main spec and made standard.
Some of the first advertised USB 3 controllers in trade magazines had DRM for controlling power delivery as a major feature. Incompatibility is the effective USB-C standard for power delivery.
Care to elaborate? I know what Occam's Razor is, but I don't see how to apply it in this case.
CLI paste? paste.pr0.tips!
Firewire with a lean 6-pins allowed for bidirectional communications and was essentially a peer-to-peer network. USB had a mere 4 pins, was unidirectional, and didn't require the devices to know how to talk to each other (hence the need for a hub).
The terms are half-duplex and full-duplex. Both Firewire and USB are bidirectional.
It was technically inferior, but won because of price.
The technical issues were insignificant compared to the licensing fees Apple and others required for Firewire. By the time this was addressed, it was too late and they had killed the possibility of widespread adoption.
so apple can sell $29.99 adapters
So Apple can sell poorly designed and low quality $29.99 adapters.
God of the Gaps is God of Ignorance.
What's the point in having thinner laptops if we need to carry adapters around?
#DeleteFacebook
And therein lies my point: docks aren't portable.
Oh, BULLshit!
You mean to tell me that something like THESE aren't PORTABLE?!?
https://www.amazon.com/UGREEN-...
https://www.amazon.com/HyperDr...
https://www.amazon.com/VAVA-VA...
https://www.amazon.com/Adapter...
And that was with about 2 min. searching on Amazon. There are many more configs., sizes, and price-points.
So, GIMME A BREAK!
When you have to use those ports to charge and connect screens, yes it is too few. But at least it's still got a headphone jack.
How MANY of what resolution screens are you talking about?
What's the point in having thinner laptops if we need to carry adapters around?
This is what I am talking about:
https://www.amazon.com/Adapter...
If you think that's too onerous while the world catches-up to USB-C, then you are one entitled little biotch...
The goal of a laptop is to have everything integrated into one unit. As soon as you need to carry something else, it means it lost some functionality along the way.
Apple could make their laptops even thinner and smaller if they removed the keyboard completely, and we'd have people like you telling us we shouldn't complain about having to carry external keyboards.
#DeleteFacebook
The goal of a laptop is to have everything integrated into one unit. As soon as you need to carry something else, it means it lost some functionality along the way.
Apple could make their laptops even thinner and smaller if they removed the keyboard completely, and we'd have people like you telling us we shouldn't complain about having to carry external keyboards.
Entirely different. Nice strawman.
And there ARE ports integrated into those Mac laptops. There ARE USB-C memory sticks, HDD/SDDs, Displays, etc.
The world is just now beginning to embrace USB-C on the peripheral end. Just like with the original iMac, Apple's decision will not look so stupid in a couple of years. And given the lifespan of a typical Mac laptop, they will still be going strong when USB-C is is "new normal", and those other laptops' USB-A connectors will largely sit idle.
There's still laptops being sold in 2018 with VGA ports and PC motherboards with old DB-9 serial ports. And given the mess that USB-C is right now, it may prevent it from becoming the "new normal" for quite a long time. There's also USB-C ports which can do everything, other USB-C ports that cannot, etc. It really is a mess.
And nothing prevented Apple from adding USB-C ports while still keeping at least one USB-A port. They did it for the iMac, which still has the regular standard power connector while the MacBook requires its only USB-C port to charge the computer, meaning you can't physically connect anything to it while charging unless you're suggesting to carry around a hub, which is way bigger than a tiny adapter.
#DeleteFacebook
One problem with phones with USB-C charging jacks and no headphone jack is that you can't connect a charger and headphones at the same time. There are adapters that are supposed to let you do that, but they don't work on all phones.
Things get even worse than this article mentions when you look at laptops with USB-C ports. (I'm sure much of this would also apply to desktop systems with USB-C; they do exist now but I haven't yet encountered one.) Some ports let you charge the laptop. Some are also Thunderbolt 3 ports and will support accessories like external monitors and GPUs. Some support charging a connected device while the laptop is in sleep or hibernate. But they all look the same so it's difficult to know what capabilities a USB-C port has. If the laptop has more than one USB-C port they aren't always identical; each port may have a different mix of capabilities.
They're a hell of a lot less portable than slipping the laptop alone into a slim bag, yes. If I'm going to end up with something the same size and weight as a 17" that actually has the ports built in, I'm just going to grab the 17" with ports built in. That's only one thing to fiddle with and a hell of a lot more convenient.
And you can't claim that the 2011 17" model is just as portable as the current 15" models. Well, you can, but it would be extremely twofaced and a bullshit argument given that you've, many times, defended Apple's choice to sacrifice ports and battery size in the name of thinner and lighter because it makes the machines more portable than their predecessors. And you're right, if all you need is a Facebook machine, they're more portable because they're smaller and you don't have to carry anything extra; but, then, you shouldn't be buying a Pro machine if that's all you need, and Apple shouldn't be bastardizing the Pro machines in the name of the consumer market.
APK quotes people (including myself) without context and should not be trusted. Just thought you should know.
There's still laptops being sold in 2018 with VGA ports and PC motherboards with old DB-9 serial ports. And given the mess that USB-C is right now, it may prevent it from becoming the "new normal" for quite a long time. There's also USB-C ports which can do everything, other USB-C ports that cannot, etc. It really is a mess.
And nothing prevented Apple from adding USB-C ports while still keeping at least one USB-A port. They did it for the iMac, which still has the regular standard power connector while the MacBook requires its only USB-C port to charge the computer, meaning you can't physically connect anything to it while charging unless you're suggesting to carry around a hub, which is way bigger than a tiny adapter.
That article had to do with USB-C CHARGING. But your point it well taken.
Apple likes being disruptive. And it goes against their grain to put in an "legacy" USB-A port, when they very well know that a USB-C port has, as its base-spec, the ability to function as a USB-A port, electrically and protocol-wise. And I'm sorry, a $2 passive USB-C -> USB-A adapter is just not at all onerous.
An iMac has an internal power supply. 120VAC comes straight into the iMac. Not so with the MacBooks; so that's (pardon) Oranges and Lemons.
You really ARE making a mountain out of an adapter, here.
They're a hell of a lot less portable than slipping the laptop alone into a slim bag, yes. If I'm going to end up with something the same size and weight as a 17" that actually has the ports built in, I'm just going to grab the 17" with ports built in. That's only one thing to fiddle with and a hell of a lot more convenient.
And you can't claim that the 2011 17" model is just as portable as the current 15" models. Well, you can, but it would be extremely twofaced and a bullshit argument given that you've, many times, defended Apple's choice to sacrifice ports and battery size in the name of thinner and lighter because it makes the machines more portable than their predecessors. And you're right, if all you need is a Facebook machine, they're more portable because they're smaller and you don't have to carry anything extra; but, then, you shouldn't be buying a Pro machine if that's all you need, and Apple shouldn't be bastardizing the Pro machines in the name of the consumer market.
If you think plugging ONE simple USB-C cable from Dock to laptop is a horrible, onerous task, I sincerely can't believe you ever got into a multitrack recording hobby/business. That world is nothing BUT cables and outboard equipment and adapters and gender-changers, oh, my!
Give it a rest. You're just bitching to bitch. Time marches on. Deal with it.
Plugging it in is simple. Having to carry it is a step backward; everything I want to plug in that necessitates it in the first place is stationary, I need carry none of it with me.
I'm all for time marching on, I love progress in all forms. This is not that.
APK quotes people (including myself) without context and should not be trusted. Just thought you should know.
Plugging it in is simple. Having to carry it is a step backward; everything I want to plug in that necessitates it in the first place is stationary, I need carry none of it with me.
I'm all for time marching on, I love progress in all forms. This is not that.
Actually, it is progress having to deal with legacy.
And I still don't have any sympathy for someone who complains about "having to carry" something about the size of a dollar-bill.
Something about the size of a dollar bill would be too thin for the ports; it's considerably larger than even a band of bills. Perhaps some of us feel we shouldn't need $300 in adapters and dongles and docks to make our $3000 machines as useful as their $300 PC counterparts. Progress usually means being able to do more with a single item, not less.
APK quotes people (including myself) without context and should not be trusted. Just thought you should know.
By what logic would one make the jump from "I don't know" to the supernatural?
That's the fundamental failing of religion. There is no reasonable way to bridge that gap, nor any evidence which would suggest one could.
For example one could believe in some sort of god that made the universe the way it is, laws of nature and all, and didn't really interact with the whole thing afterwards.
One could believe in a lot of things. The issue is whether or not one can justify those beliefs.
Throughout human history "I don't know" has often been answered with "god", but that god of the gaps has steadily gotten smaller as we've gotten wiser. While making that jump is a logical fallacy to begin with, given the history of that being about the worst method to explain everything in the universe, it should be abundantly clear at this point in history that it's a very stupid choice for one to make.
"I don't know." is fine. It's the correct answer a lot of the time. People just need to be brave enough to accept it.
Why is there something rather than nothing? I don't know. And I'm ok with that.
Velociraptor = Distiraptor / Timeraptor
Maybe you want to game on your laptop so you decide to buy an external GPU
Yeah, casual users are all over the external GPU market.
This is a tempest in a teapot for the casual user. For us power users the issue of parts not having to be up to spec is frustrating, but casual users just ask friends beforehand what they should buy and just return stuff that doesn't work the way they want. If they even notice.
That's why I lost my Galaxy S4 after three years of service. Got the S7 with wireless charging, in part because I bet I can get quite a few more years out of it with 2 methods to charge it.
The S4 had a replaceable battery, but ripping it apart at least once a day to change it and setting up a battery charge rotation turned out to be a giant pain in the ass.
Velociraptor = Distiraptor / Timeraptor
It's still an issue! I have a little media center NUC with a USB wireless keyboard and mouse, and I can't do anything in the BIOS or GRUB with it. If I want to mess with either, I need to drag a wired keyboard out and plug it in.
Velociraptor = Distiraptor / Timeraptor
Something about the size of a dollar bill would be too thin for the ports; it's considerably larger than even a band of bills. Perhaps some of us feel we shouldn't need $300 in adapters and dongles and docks to make our $3000 machines as useful as their $300 PC counterparts. Progress usually means being able to do more with a single item, not less.
I obviously wasn't including the "Z" axis, you putz! So, let's say a stack of dollar-bills about 1/2" high.
Better?
Who said $300? Unless you need a couple of certain ports (miniDP, FireWire), you can get by with a multiport Dock for around $50, and you bloody-well know that, since I sent you a sample of about four multiport docks that fit that description. One was $89; but the rest ranged from $38 to $50.
And, even if you need MiniDP, there are Docks around $100 that can supply that, too. In fact, there were a couple that supported MiniDP for around $50; but they looked a little sketchy. Here's one for $123 that is actually a TB3 Dock and sports TWO 4k@60Hz-compatible MiniDP connectors (which can also drive certain 5k displays@60Hz, too), plus a USB 3.0 and Gigabit Ethernet port. It is slightly larger than a credit card (and about 1/2" tall).
https://www.amazon.com/StarTec...
Step up to this $229 Dock and it has everything you could want except Firewire. USB 3.1 Gen 1 X 2, DisplayPort X 2, HDMI, VGA, GigE, 87W USB-C Passthru Port. Slightly longer and skinnier than a dollar bill, by around 1/2" high.
https://www.amazon.com/Mantiz-...
Unfortunately, If you need FireWire, you are really stuck with either Apple's two-cascaded-adapters solution (ick!) for a total of $70, or that expensive $349 OWC 13 Port Dock. But that is the EXTREME exception to the rule! But that probably wouldn't be any more expensive than using a PCI-Card solution back in the day.
Remember when a lot of laptops made you go through that horseshit JUST for a MODEM or and Ethernet port? And Diety help you if you needed BOTH...
Sorry, this is MUCH better than all that.
Good job you go through the entire post pick out the least suitable example and then ignore the rest.
So the casual users will never ever have a Thunderbolt device? Or the casual user will never attach a display?
Don't be silly.
but casual users just ask friends beforehand what they should buy and just return stuff that doesn't work the way they want. If they even notice.
No they don't. Casual users frequently ask friends after when something doesn't work and then return it. At that point the damage is done. Actually I take that back, the idea that someone needs to ask any question at all about Universal Serial Bus compatibility means the damage is done.
Yes, this might be better than 1990's laptops, but that doesn't mean it isn't a huge step back from 2014.
APK quotes people (including myself) without context and should not be trusted. Just thought you should know.
Fully agree to that. "I don't know" is a very scientific stance and it is the official state-of-the-art for quite a few scientific questions that really matter. Many people do not have a mind suitable for Science, and one of the most telling behaviors is that they cannot stand uncertainty. They rather believe in a complete (and often ridiculous) fantasy then recognize and accept the uncertainty. Then there are other people that exploit this deficiency and hence you get religion, political ideology, and other beliefs that serve mainly to funnel more power to a few.
As this time, a "god in the gaps" would have to be an absentee misanthrope that may actually be incapable of getting things right and hence ran away. That does sound much more like many humans than a "god". As such, the idea gets some credibility ("the Creator as a fuckup"....), but it is still very far-fetched and there is certainly no reason to admire a fuckup or pray to it.
Most ACs are not even worth the keystrokes to insult them. Be generically insulted by this and ignored otherwise.
Actually, the USB-C connector is a pretty good piece of engineering. That part was certainly done right. The base USB functionality and a base part of the power spec is also done well. But then they went and put in a lot of things that really, really should have been left out.
Most ACs are not even worth the keystrokes to insult them. Be generically insulted by this and ignored otherwise.
Plain old serial is also not "big ego, small skill"-engineering compatible. Some really bad engineers just cannot leave a finished, mature thing alone but have to "improve" everything.
Most ACs are not even worth the keystrokes to insult them. Be generically insulted by this and ignored otherwise.
Yes, this might be better than 1990's laptops, but that doesn't mean it isn't a huge step back from 2014.
You're certifiable.
I have a mid 2012 non retina MBP with the Hi-DPI screen. It has MagSafe, a TB2/MiniDP, FW800, GigE 2 x USB 3.0, SD Slot, and a SuperDrive.
I would trade it for a 2017 15" MBP with 4 X USB-C/TB3 and a ToichBar/TouchID and decent speakers in a heartbeat.
I would miss the FW800, only because I have a friend with a nice Mackie Board with a built in 18 in, 2 out FW I/F, and it is good for doing live recordings, because Mackie was very smart about from where in the signal path they tapped-off the input signals. But I could just as easily borrow my other friend's Tascam 16X08 USB audio I/F, I guess.
But other than that, I would much rather have the FLEXIBILITY afforded by the 4 USB-C/TB3 ports. Seriously.
We're gonna have to agree to disagree, then, I guess.
APK quotes people (including myself) without context and should not be trusted. Just thought you should know.
By what logic would one make the jump from "I don't know" to the supernatural?
Atheism isn't "i don't know", it's "I know there isn't". You're thinking of agnosticism.
CLI paste? paste.pr0.tips!
So the casual users will never ever have a Thunderbolt device?
A peripheral that can only be attached to a laptop via a Thunderbolt USB-C port? Very few casual users will.
Or the casual user will never attach a display?
To a laptop that has a USB-C port that does not support attaching external displays and which laptop does not also have some HDMI or DP connector? Never.
You do realize that to attach external displays, people already have to deal with mini-DP, mini-HDMI, micro-HDMI, DP, HDMI and in very unlucky cases even DVI and VGA. Buying a laptop with only a USB-C port that doesn't support video doesn't change that at all.
No they don't.
Yes, they do. Either that, or they ask at the store. Especially for laptops, considering that market is utterly confusing to start with.
At that point the damage is done. Actually I take that back, the idea that someone needs to ask any question at all about Universal Serial Bus compatibility means the damage is done.
Don't be so melodramatic. USB is becoming more Universal than it was, just not as Universal as we would all like. Most of all USB use cases will be just fine.
Incorrect, for the most part. The vast majority of atheists are in the camp of "I see no evidence of a god." That's not "I know there isn't.", which is a statement of absolute certainty. Not currently seeing evidence leaves open the possibility of that evidence coming to light, as unlikely as it is.That's the rational position to take.
Agnosticism generally is in the realm of, "I'm not sure if there is or not.", which is very different from "I see no evidence."
There are definitely members of the strong atheist camp which go as far as to say, "I know there isn't.", but that tends to be a minority in my experience. Because to claim that there is no god, you've put yourself in the position of having to prove a negative. From a philosophical standpoint, that's a poor position to take, as it shifts the burden of proof on the defender.
Velociraptor = Distiraptor / Timeraptor
A peripheral that can only be attached to a laptop via a Thunderbolt USB-C port? Very few casual users will.
Like a display? Seriously if you think this is an edge case you have not been paying attention to the market.
To a laptop that has a USB-C port that does not support attaching external displays and which laptop does not also have some HDMI or DP connector? Never.
Seriously if you think this is an edge case you have not been paying attention to the market.
Yes, they do.
No they don't.
Either that, or they ask at the store.
Bahahahahahahahahahahaha. AHhh yeah that's a return waiting to happen.
Don't be so melodramatic.
I didn't post this on Slashdot. I didn't write the original article. I didn't make the decision not to include USB-C in the Surface 2015 because the standard is fucked. If you can't see the problems then you have not been paying atten... I'm getting tired of repeating myself.
We're gonna have to agree to disagree, then, I guess.
Don't get me wrong: I bought that particular model of MBP, even though the 2013 rMBP had already come out, SPECIFICALLY because it had built in FW (which I have used exactly ONCE) and an Optical Drive (which I think I have used ONCE, maybe); so I get the reasoning behind the "you can never be too rich, too thin, or have too many laptop ports"); but that was before TB3 and USB-C, and the spectacular flexibility and expandability they represent.
So, that's kind of my final thoughts on the subject...
Incorrect, for the most part. The vast majority of atheists are in the camp of "I see no evidence of a god."
That statement by itself is neither a conclusion nor a belief, plus it goes for a lot of religious people as well.
What matters is what conclusion they draw from this statement, and it can be either "but I chose to believe there is none, anyway" (which is "i know there isn't" in the same sense as religious people "know there is". (substitute 'believe' for 'know' if you feel like being pedantic, it doesn't really change anything)), or it could be "therefore there's no point asking the question in the first place".
Neither of the three groups is necessarily closed-minded when it comes to potential evidence surfacing later on, although getting evidence for 'there is no god' would be a bit tricky to obtain, rendering the religious people practically immune.
Not currently seeing evidence leaves open the possibility of that evidence coming to light, as unlikely as it is.That's the rational position to take.
And that's the agnostic position. It's basically in the word.
CLI paste? paste.pr0.tips!
"I don't know" is not atheism, though.
CLI paste? paste.pr0.tips!
Your reading comprehension skills are lacking. The crux was and is in the 'can only be'.
The point you are glossing over is that displays are going to have multiple inputs like HDMI and DP and that a laptop that does not have a USB-C port that can drive a display will have some mini-/micro-variant of HDMI or DP. Just like laptops do today.
You are somehow arguing that there will be laptops without any way of driving an external display, which is retarded.
If a casual user is even aware of the possibility of driving a display with a USB-C port, he might assume any USB-C port will be capable of doing so, see a laptop that has both micro-HDMI and USB-C and think 'huh, why have the micro-HDMI port on there at all?'
If he then fails to have that luminous thought and buys the laptop anyway, he might try driving a display via the USB-C port only to discover that it does not work, after which he buys a micro-HDMI cable.
'Problem' solved and hardly a matter of a '$500 paperweight'.
No they don't.
There's probably a good reason why your friends never ask you these things.
the idea that someone needs to ask any question at all about Universal Serial Bus compatibility means the damage is done
Melodrama.
The point you are glossing over is that displays are going to have multiple inputs like HDMI and DP
Yep just like my printer with it's non-existent parallel port. Speaking of, I can't currently plug my own display into my laptop without a dongle thanks to it's multiple inputs not being compatible with the outputs on my laptop. So thanks.
You are somehow arguing that there will be laptops without any way of driving an external display, which is retarded.
Errr, no there's actually laptops on the market right now. Or have you not been paying attention to product releases by the fruity majors? But I'm sure you prefer to dongle the dongle dongle to solve all your problems. What a retarded time to be alive.
If a casual user is even aware of the possibility of driving a display with a USB-C port, he might assume any USB-C port will be capable of doing so
Finally you understood my point.
see a laptop that has both micro-HDMI and USB-C
Why would naturally assume they have both? There are laptops on the market right now which don't. Better still there are laptops on the market right now which do, only to have the micro-HDMI or other ports gimped (like mine)
There's probably a good reason why your friends never ask you these things.
Yep, it's called human nature where people don't go out and ask questions they don't know they have about things they didn't know were a problem. Kind of like USB not being as Universal as thought.
Melodrama
Not so much melodrama, as much as : The whole fucking point. But hey, it's such a non-issue that it was posted and being discussed on Slashdot.
Yep just like my printer with it's non-existent parallel port
Last century called, it wants its argument back. HDMI and/or DP on monitors are not going away before USB-C (or its successor) is stable.
But I'm sure you prefer to dongle the dongle dongle to solve all your problems.
Listen, I have no love for Apple and dongles as 'solutions', but you're the one that started talking about a $500 paperweight, which is still bullshit. Don't move the goalposts or change the subject. USB-C to dongle has fuck-all to do with TFA.
about things they didn't know were a problem
That was not the subject. We were talking about casual users asking their (tech) friends or store employees before buying a laptop. The problem they have before buying is that they haven't got a clue what to buy.
Not so much melodrama, as much as : The whole fucking point. But hey, it's such a non-issue that it was posted and being discussed on Slashdot.
No, melodrama. Again: "For us power users the issue of parts not having to be up to spec is frustrating". The distinction between power users and casual users is not part of TFA. The following is a melodramatic way of speaking about this issue: "the idea that someone needs to ask any question at all about Universal Serial Bus compatibility means the damage is done".
Good day.