Slashdot Mirror
Ask Slashdot: Have You Ever 'Ghosted' an Employer? (linkedin.com)
"Suddenly, calls and texts went unreturned," writes LinkedIn's editor at large, describing a recruiter who suddenly discovered the candidate she'd wanted to hire failed to respond to 12 messages, including emails like "Please let me know that you have not been kidnapped by aliens. I'm worried about you," and even a snail-mailed greeting card. Recruiters complain that prospective employees are now borrowing a practice from dating -- and "ghosting" recruiters and employers to let them know that they're not interested.
"Candidates agree to job interviews and fail to show up, never saying more. Some accept jobs, only to not appear for the first day of work, no reason given, of course. Instead of formally quitting, enduring a potentially awkward conversation with a manager, some employees leave and never return. Bosses realize they've quit only after a series of unsuccessful attempts to reach them.... Meredith Jones, an Indianapolis-based director of human resources for a national restaurant operator, now overbooks interviews, knowing up to 50 percent of candidates for entry-level roles likely won't show up."
Long-time Slashdot reader NormalVisual writes, "It'd be interesting to hear Slashdotters' experience with this." Have you ever ghosted a potential employer, or perhaps more relevant, have you ever been ghosted by a potential employer during the hiring process? Do you feel it's unprofessional, or simple justice for the behavior of some companies when the balance of power was more on their side?
Inc. magazine blames the low unemployment rate and "the effects technology have had on the communication style of younger generations." But leave your own thoughts in the comments.
Does ghosting show a lack of professionalism, or is it simple payback for the way corporations treated job-seekers in the past? And have you ever "ghosted" an employer?
"Candidates agree to job interviews and fail to show up, never saying more. Some accept jobs, only to not appear for the first day of work, no reason given, of course. Instead of formally quitting, enduring a potentially awkward conversation with a manager, some employees leave and never return. Bosses realize they've quit only after a series of unsuccessful attempts to reach them.... Meredith Jones, an Indianapolis-based director of human resources for a national restaurant operator, now overbooks interviews, knowing up to 50 percent of candidates for entry-level roles likely won't show up."
Long-time Slashdot reader NormalVisual writes, "It'd be interesting to hear Slashdotters' experience with this." Have you ever ghosted a potential employer, or perhaps more relevant, have you ever been ghosted by a potential employer during the hiring process? Do you feel it's unprofessional, or simple justice for the behavior of some companies when the balance of power was more on their side?
Inc. magazine blames the low unemployment rate and "the effects technology have had on the communication style of younger generations." But leave your own thoughts in the comments.
Does ghosting show a lack of professionalism, or is it simple payback for the way corporations treated job-seekers in the past? And have you ever "ghosted" an employer?
I don't condone this behavior at all. It's unprofessional and disrespectful. If you make a commitment to show up for an interview or accept a job, you should be there. But through the eyes of my child who is attempting to enter the workforce, being rejected with no feedback at all is frustrating. I don't expect every employer to spend hours coaching rejected applicants, but a simple statement of why would go a long way. I can understand the rational of a prospective employee that's been through application after application with no responses or rejections that just say, "no". Very few are giving the overwhelming number of applicants that courtesy, why should it be returned?
It's wrong on both sides. Everybody needs to step up and communicate better.
Sure, it would 'get around' if you live in South Fuck, Minnesota. Here in the big city, corporations don't call each other and say 'Here's a list of the employees that did us wrong, watch out for them!' Receuiters are a dime a dozen, and they're as notorious for ghosting on clients, recruiting for non-existent jobs, and pulling all kinds of shennanigans. Few will have sympathy for the recruiters or employers. Everyone is an asshole these days, and the moral high ground remains vacant.
It's only what you've been doing to your merchandise for ages.
My sent email box contains literally hundreds of emails to just about that many recruiters that at best completely ignored me. At best because they might also add me to their "database" and have their spambot send me things that are usually completely unrelated to what I'm interested in, every half year or so. That's how I know I'm at the bottom of their barrel and will never ever get a decent offer from them. So I report those emails as spam. Because, a little respect would be nice. But I've never had any from recruiters. Plenty of abuse, though. Down to spending time and effort on a phone interview only to learn that the advertised job didn't actually exist. They kept on advertising that nonexistent job of course.
No sympathy for recruiters finding the chickens are coming home to roost.
For a long time it's been perfectly professional and okay for a potential employer to just 'ghost' potential canidates. They'll never return a phone call or email if they're not interested in you or if they change their mind halfway through the interview process because they found a better canidate. You have to practically harass them to know what's going on. This is super common in the tech world. But when a potential employee does it? "That's unprofessional." - Bullshit i say. This isn't the '80s anymore where skilled laborers are interchangeable.
"Does ghosting show a lack of professionalism, or is it simple payback for the way corporations treated job-seekers in the past?"
Yes to both.
Next question?
Respect and professionalism go both ways. Many businesses that rely on skilled professionals forgot this during the recession, and now that most of the desperation has settled back into baseline disgruntlement, they're in a bad fuckin' way.
The trend for the last decade and a half has been for employers, potential or actual, to disregard common courtesy to employees, potential or actual - even in what would be considered "professional" positions. Let's take a look at what the average person's job search looks like these days:
- A couple weeks or months of having to eat piles of shit in the process of submitting resumes by having to deal with the subcontracted, third-party resume ingestion services that everyone uses now. If you haven't yet had the pleasure of spending an 8 hour day getting your resume submitted to 10 or 12 total positions, you cannot begin to understand how much you begin to absolutely loathe every living being after doing this for weeks.
- Getting calls upon calls from (quick, call me a racist) Indian headhunters or HR drones whose job is to get you just far enough along that they can credibly reject you so they can put a fig leaf over the H1B they're going to hire anyway
- Never, ever getting anything more than a form email that explains absolutely nothing about why you were rejected for the position that you spent an hour tailoring a resume for because it looks like an ideal fit and you actually meet all of the inflated requirements
- Delay upon delay upon delay. Even if you get accepted, it might take them weeks to get around to finalizing your employment. If something comparable or better comes up in the mean time that will get you actually started sooner, who wouldn't take it?
Employers who actually have recurring problems with getting ghosted by recruits need to take a serious look at what they're doing wrong. Hint: It's probably acting like royalty and not paying wages that seriously motivate.
From Personal Experience, I had an interview arranged by a Recruiter with an Engineering Company. However, it became apparent very quickly that the recruiter was incredibly dishonest.
After going to the interview, I was informed by the Recruiter that the Company in question wanted to make an offer in person and he quoted a very generous salary. When I went to the Company in person again, the contract they showed was a signifcantly lower salary! I did raise this with my Interviewer who said they hadn't agreed a Salary with the recruiter.
I had decided then that I did not want the Job and informed the Recruiter that I was declining the offer. However, he was adamant to try and get me to accept it in comically rediculous ways by telling me that the role was upgraded to a Project Manager role! I still told him directly that I declined the offer and decided that I would 'ghost' all Phone Calls from this crook.
About 1.5 Weeks later, I was getting texts from the Engineering Company in question asking for me to give them a call back. I did and was greeted with "Whats Going on! The Recruitment Consultant said he was unable to get in touch with you" to which I responded by telling him that I told the Consultant that I declined the offer over a week ago. This turned out to be news to him as he was never informed by the Recruiter about this.
Its hard to sympathize with Recruiters who post crappy articles on Linkedin about how great they are or Candidates are ghosting them when they take this piss like this!
Do this and word *will* get around. People know each other, and even if you don't list someone as a reference, they may get asked anyway.
I had one employee ghost me. She just stopped coming into the office. Did outstanding work, been with us for a while. But she took a sudden three day unplanned/unannounced absence, then a few weeks later another few days sudden/unplanned absence. We talked, she said they were vacations, sorry, thought I'd told you. Then a month later, she didn't come into work. No reply to emails or voicemails. Ghosted.
We sent a letter to terminate her, saying we assumed by not showing up for a week and a half, she had resigned.
And six months later, I get a call from someone I used to work with, long ago, at a different org. He was somewhere new too. He had an applicant who listed my org on their resume, didn't list me as a reference but wanted to know what I knew about her. Same employee.
She didn't get the job.
To be honest, I never even considered that people accepting jobs and not showing up would be an issue - (while I speak mostly from the perspective of the German labour law, I believe this is also the case for most other European countries) both parties have an obligation once the employment contract is signed, with the employer being in their right to seek damages for every day that you do not show up and do your job, as agreed. The flip side of this is that it's also quite difficult for the employer to refuse leave requests by the employee, with a far wider range of allowable absences than what would be tolerated on the US side. I am certainly guilty of having interviewed at companies that were competitors at the same time and playing them against each other to up the offer, but I would never have signed something and then try to weasel out of it when something better comes along. On the other hand, I have also seen people take jobs they didn't necessarily want while continuing to look for better ones, and then simply quit their other job during their probation period (typically a 6 month period in which either side is able to terminate the relationship without cause). Once someone has to begin paying damages for every day they don't show up for work (or obtains sufficient awareness of this potentiality), I would imagine people would be a bit more careful about when and what they sign, and the problem would gradually correct itself.
Oh you hire blue collar truck drivers. Hate to break it to you, but you have no "authority" in any real sense of the word. You just want cheap labor. Makes sense.
Non-responsiveness on the part of HR/recruiters isn't just common - after a while, I just assumed it was 'standard practice'.
I don't expect a detailed response from every resume I send in, but I do expect a response if I have gone thru an interview, especially if it included someone from the executive suite. It can be demoralizing to meet with a hiring manager and their boss (maybe a VP), have it go well (smiles all around), then radio silence. At least have the courtesy of an email stating 'We appreciate the time and energy you put into the process, but...'.
I have to agree with the other posters that the recruiters created the environment in which this developed.
Having said all that, I cannot condone an employee accepting a position, filling out some forms, then not showing up to the first day of work. That borders on a sort of fraud or breech: if you went thru the process of filling out onboarding docs, there is a very strongly implied and expressed intent, by both parties, to commit to each other. But then, I suppose some people don't show to their own weddings...
It boils down to standards of behavior - for all aspects of life. And respect. If we develop a society that says that a free-wheeling economy where anything goes is the norm, how to you expect job-seekers *not* to be influenced by that?
Over the years, I've heard of several people "ghosting" their employers. However, in these cases, it was because they had passed away at home, and they lived alone. Since the employer doesn't know why the employee has stopped coming in, they call the police for a wellness check. The police arrive and find the person has passed on.
Long story short, don't ghost, or you may be treated is if you might have become one.
One of the rules I live by is that everyone deserves respect until they demonstrate otherwise.
If you're going to insult me with a shit contract that's guaranteed to screw me when we part ways, why would you expect anything from me but contempt?
A few articles back I read about the huge burn-out problem in the US. That makes for a pretty good explanation. If you're burned out, your mind has pretty much shut down higher reasoning. Recovery usually takes months, so a vacation won't cut it. I wouldn't be surprised if a lot of people just go " ah, fuck it". Combine it with depression or other mental illnesses and you have somebody sitting in a true hellhole. One more reason for companies to actually give a shit about their employees. Here in the Netherlands the employer is also responsible for mental well-being. That's growing in the U.S. and other 1st world countries, but not nearly enough.
A positive attitude may not solve all your problems, but it will annoy enough people to make it well worth the effort.
Get the mark into a position where they're eager to jump at anything, then go, "Damn, the company hired someone else, but I do have THIS job lined up!" which is about half the pay, but if you've already made moves that require you to have SOME kind of employment it'll suddenly sound much more attractive.
-=This sig has nothing to do with my comment. Move along now=-
Techies are hired to tech. Not to socialize. HR is hired to socialize. The lack of professionalism is from HR departments across the board, not employees.
HR departments seem to be trained to deal with poor people with no skills, and so they treat everyone like an indentured servent. When they finally have to deal with skilled workers who won't take their shit, they get all indignant.
2 different stories.
1) I took a contract position, 6 months. At this place, the guy responsible for ensuring contracts were renewed was a flake. 1st time, I asked the day my contract ended and he didn't know anything about it. I said, no contract, no work. Left at the end of the day. Monday rolled around and I didn't show up. He was panicked, working to get the extension pushed through, but it would be 2-3 more days. ... we need you today." he said. "I"m across the country, skiing, can't be back until the following Monday." I said. That happened 3 more times over the 9 yrs I worked there.
6 months later, I didn't mention the contract was expiring and planned a week vacation without telling anyone. Skiing. Contract expired on Friday and I flew off to SLC for a week of epic skiing. Monday morning, got a cell phone call asking where I was. "Contract ended Friday", I said. "Oh
The last time, they decided that a contractor should be an employee if they worked there more than 2 yrs. Smart, but not for me. My contract ended in early November, so I planned to travel about 6 months in Asia after the Holidays spent with family in different states. I didn't mention this to anyone at work. 3 days prior to the contract end, the boss texts that he'd gotten the "employee paperwork" approved so I could switch over on Monday. That was the first I'd heard about that idea. I didn't want to be an employee. They'd asked a few times over the years, but I always turned them down. I said no thanks and wished him luck. Turned out that 80% of the people in my group who were contractors had decided the same thing. He was desperate.
2) Interviewed for a position at a major DoD company where I'd fill 2 positions they had opened due to my skills. It was clear that I was a perfect fit, because I'd already had a clearance and my degree would directly support flight testing of a new aircraft (deployed now and kicking ass). Nobody I spoke with was qualified to interview me on anything technical. This was quickly known. I'd loose more knowledge in computing if I worked there than I ever gained.
The boss finally came in and told me all the ways I'd be fired for about 10 minutes. He was an old, gruff, ex-military type, who felt he needed to control start, lunch, end times. 5 minutes late 3 times would mean I was fired. No thanks.
I left the interview and never contacted them again. A week later, the boss called asking where I was on the job. I told him I'd accepted a position at a less hostile workplace where they respected employees. His response,"oh."
Poor communications, in both directions, is where the failure happens. At hiring time, the prospective employees have all the power. It is the last time any employee has much real power, often.
When I did hiring, I was looking for a "good fit" for both sides. We needed smart people who would be able to fit into the culture and do great work. If the applicant doesn't like us, they won't enjoy work, which is bad too. 2-way street. We were pretty relaxed, but about 3 days a month, we'd have customers and needed to dress up a little more and keep the spitballs to a minimum. It was a software development house.
In fairness to some recruiters who I know and who are very good, it's the bad 90% giving the good 10% a bad name.
10% good? I think you're being generous!
Yours is the second post mentioning advertising non existent jobs? Wtf?
Can you explain why they would do this?
There are lots of reasons:
1) The job is already filled internally but they are legally required to post it.
2) They have a new or existing employee and they are wanting to know what they employee is worth compared to other people.
3) There is a potential position and they do want to hire someone but they need to know what's out there and what it will cost
before getting approval for a salary range.
4) The job did really exist but they quickly found someone they liked but left the job "open" just in case the first person falls thru.
5) It's a position that frequently has openings and they want to be able to fill it quickly when an opening does happen.
There are likely a bunch of other similar reasons too but most probably fall into the two categories of
either "market research" and/or "job technically exists but is currently unavailable to be filled"
I just ask for their firstborn.
On an unrelated note, is anybody interested in adopting a bunch of small children?
CLI paste? paste.pr0.tips!
Thee are many reasons. The most malicious is to steal your identity: many people are less careful of their personal details with a recruiter who is "running a background check". Or they may "bait and switch", offer you a less lucrative or less skilled role when you've already invested time and effort in making a good impression with them. There is also an infamous practice of advertising roles in the market and accepting only the intended, much cheaper, H1B candidate with spurious requirements. There is also an infamous bureaucratic practice of getting approved to hire various personnel, expanding the department headcount, but never actually hiring the personnel. That last is used to justify overtime and more office space or benefits for the staff onsite "until we can fill those slots".
There are many other reasons to present an opening that does not really exist. The penalty for withdrawing an advertised role is usually quite low, and the benefits can be quite high. So I'm afraid that some fraud there is inevitable.
You're forgetting what is probably the most common that started years ago:
0. To fulfill the legal requirement that no qualified American could be found thereby allowing them to legally hire the foreigner they already decided to hire even before the position was advertised:
Most job interviews these days are no so much to determine whether you're qualified for the position or not, but rather to determine a legally valid reason to disqualify you for the position so that they can legally hire the foreigner they already decided to hire long ago!
Today's job market sucks. :(
"Fish" (David B. Trout)