Slashdot Mirror
Ask Slashdot: Have You Ever 'Ghosted' an Employer? (linkedin.com)
"Suddenly, calls and texts went unreturned," writes LinkedIn's editor at large, describing a recruiter who suddenly discovered the candidate she'd wanted to hire failed to respond to 12 messages, including emails like "Please let me know that you have not been kidnapped by aliens. I'm worried about you," and even a snail-mailed greeting card. Recruiters complain that prospective employees are now borrowing a practice from dating -- and "ghosting" recruiters and employers to let them know that they're not interested.
"Candidates agree to job interviews and fail to show up, never saying more. Some accept jobs, only to not appear for the first day of work, no reason given, of course. Instead of formally quitting, enduring a potentially awkward conversation with a manager, some employees leave and never return. Bosses realize they've quit only after a series of unsuccessful attempts to reach them.... Meredith Jones, an Indianapolis-based director of human resources for a national restaurant operator, now overbooks interviews, knowing up to 50 percent of candidates for entry-level roles likely won't show up."
Long-time Slashdot reader NormalVisual writes, "It'd be interesting to hear Slashdotters' experience with this." Have you ever ghosted a potential employer, or perhaps more relevant, have you ever been ghosted by a potential employer during the hiring process? Do you feel it's unprofessional, or simple justice for the behavior of some companies when the balance of power was more on their side?
Inc. magazine blames the low unemployment rate and "the effects technology have had on the communication style of younger generations." But leave your own thoughts in the comments.
Does ghosting show a lack of professionalism, or is it simple payback for the way corporations treated job-seekers in the past? And have you ever "ghosted" an employer?
"Candidates agree to job interviews and fail to show up, never saying more. Some accept jobs, only to not appear for the first day of work, no reason given, of course. Instead of formally quitting, enduring a potentially awkward conversation with a manager, some employees leave and never return. Bosses realize they've quit only after a series of unsuccessful attempts to reach them.... Meredith Jones, an Indianapolis-based director of human resources for a national restaurant operator, now overbooks interviews, knowing up to 50 percent of candidates for entry-level roles likely won't show up."
Long-time Slashdot reader NormalVisual writes, "It'd be interesting to hear Slashdotters' experience with this." Have you ever ghosted a potential employer, or perhaps more relevant, have you ever been ghosted by a potential employer during the hiring process? Do you feel it's unprofessional, or simple justice for the behavior of some companies when the balance of power was more on their side?
Inc. magazine blames the low unemployment rate and "the effects technology have had on the communication style of younger generations." But leave your own thoughts in the comments.
Does ghosting show a lack of professionalism, or is it simple payback for the way corporations treated job-seekers in the past? And have you ever "ghosted" an employer?
Ghosting tech employers, that would get around.
[crickets chirping]
I don't condone this behavior at all. It's unprofessional and disrespectful. If you make a commitment to show up for an interview or accept a job, you should be there. But through the eyes of my child who is attempting to enter the workforce, being rejected with no feedback at all is frustrating. I don't expect every employer to spend hours coaching rejected applicants, but a simple statement of why would go a long way. I can understand the rational of a prospective employee that's been through application after application with no responses or rejections that just say, "no". Very few are giving the overwhelming number of applicants that courtesy, why should it be returned?
It's wrong on both sides. Everybody needs to step up and communicate better.
Sure, it would 'get around' if you live in South Fuck, Minnesota. Here in the big city, corporations don't call each other and say 'Here's a list of the employees that did us wrong, watch out for them!' Receuiters are a dime a dozen, and they're as notorious for ghosting on clients, recruiting for non-existent jobs, and pulling all kinds of shennanigans. Few will have sympathy for the recruiters or employers. Everyone is an asshole these days, and the moral high ground remains vacant.
I would consider than a waste of my time. I would much prefer you rang and cancelled rather that have me block out my calendar for an interview just to be told you already have found another position. That is not going to get you any kind of offer.
This article is not about ghosting recruiters, it is about ghosting employers directly.
Everyone ghosts recruiters, fuck em.
It's only what you've been doing to your merchandise for ages.
My sent email box contains literally hundreds of emails to just about that many recruiters that at best completely ignored me. At best because they might also add me to their "database" and have their spambot send me things that are usually completely unrelated to what I'm interested in, every half year or so. That's how I know I'm at the bottom of their barrel and will never ever get a decent offer from them. So I report those emails as spam. Because, a little respect would be nice. But I've never had any from recruiters. Plenty of abuse, though. Down to spending time and effort on a phone interview only to learn that the advertised job didn't actually exist. They kept on advertising that nonexistent job of course.
No sympathy for recruiters finding the chickens are coming home to roost.
Personal experience, yes, though not specifically in "tech" industry. Pre-college I found quite a few potential employers who gave me enough of a suspicious feel that I never called back. Even after setting a start date. They just seemed shady and most of them proved to be. The rest, I just don't know if the managers or businesses are still around.
Post-college, no, I am still working at the first firm where I landed a full-time regular professional position (Diagnostic/Medical). Not same position I started in, of course.
However, we have had people do this throughout my time here and it is striking that the author would find it new.
Home of The Suki Series
For a long time it's been perfectly professional and okay for a potential employer to just 'ghost' potential canidates. They'll never return a phone call or email if they're not interested in you or if they change their mind halfway through the interview process because they found a better canidate. You have to practically harass them to know what's going on. This is super common in the tech world. But when a potential employee does it? "That's unprofessional." - Bullshit i say. This isn't the '80s anymore where skilled laborers are interchangeable.
True all that!
a recruiter who suddenly discovered the candidate she'd wanted to hire failed to respond to 12 messages
Anybody who uses "suddenly" like that doesn't need to be in charge of anything.
Home of The Suki Series
"Does ghosting show a lack of professionalism, or is it simple payback for the way corporations treated job-seekers in the past?"
Yes to both.
Next question?
The only time I've ever done it is with aggressive recruiters who don't take no for an answer.
const int one = 65536; (Silvermoon, Texture.cs)
SJW, n: "Someone I don't like, and by the way I'm a fuckwit" - AC
get yourself a secretary. worth every penny.
Respect and professionalism go both ways. Many businesses that rely on skilled professionals forgot this during the recession, and now that most of the desperation has settled back into baseline disgruntlement, they're in a bad fuckin' way.
The trend for the last decade and a half has been for employers, potential or actual, to disregard common courtesy to employees, potential or actual - even in what would be considered "professional" positions. Let's take a look at what the average person's job search looks like these days:
- A couple weeks or months of having to eat piles of shit in the process of submitting resumes by having to deal with the subcontracted, third-party resume ingestion services that everyone uses now. If you haven't yet had the pleasure of spending an 8 hour day getting your resume submitted to 10 or 12 total positions, you cannot begin to understand how much you begin to absolutely loathe every living being after doing this for weeks.
- Getting calls upon calls from (quick, call me a racist) Indian headhunters or HR drones whose job is to get you just far enough along that they can credibly reject you so they can put a fig leaf over the H1B they're going to hire anyway
- Never, ever getting anything more than a form email that explains absolutely nothing about why you were rejected for the position that you spent an hour tailoring a resume for because it looks like an ideal fit and you actually meet all of the inflated requirements
- Delay upon delay upon delay. Even if you get accepted, it might take them weeks to get around to finalizing your employment. If something comparable or better comes up in the mean time that will get you actually started sooner, who wouldn't take it?
Employers who actually have recurring problems with getting ghosted by recruits need to take a serious look at what they're doing wrong. Hint: It's probably acting like royalty and not paying wages that seriously motivate.
Yes, that is the impression I get from watching Russian driving videos, "THAT is who I want driving our courier vehicles!"
Home of The Suki Series
From Personal Experience, I had an interview arranged by a Recruiter with an Engineering Company. However, it became apparent very quickly that the recruiter was incredibly dishonest.
After going to the interview, I was informed by the Recruiter that the Company in question wanted to make an offer in person and he quoted a very generous salary. When I went to the Company in person again, the contract they showed was a signifcantly lower salary! I did raise this with my Interviewer who said they hadn't agreed a Salary with the recruiter.
I had decided then that I did not want the Job and informed the Recruiter that I was declining the offer. However, he was adamant to try and get me to accept it in comically rediculous ways by telling me that the role was upgraded to a Project Manager role! I still told him directly that I declined the offer and decided that I would 'ghost' all Phone Calls from this crook.
About 1.5 Weeks later, I was getting texts from the Engineering Company in question asking for me to give them a call back. I did and was greeted with "Whats Going on! The Recruitment Consultant said he was unable to get in touch with you" to which I responded by telling him that I told the Consultant that I declined the offer over a week ago. This turned out to be news to him as he was never informed by the Recruiter about this.
Its hard to sympathize with Recruiters who post crappy articles on Linkedin about how great they are or Candidates are ghosting them when they take this piss like this!
What company do you employ and what "authority" do you have?
Without divulging much, I can say this: -
I run a transport company - used to; to be strict as I am not that deeply involved now. Trust me, with our drivers, you are better off dealing with ``foreign brought up`` , but legally working American employees.
I can almost guarantee that in about a decade and a half, you will be seeing what I am seeing now. And yes, I [still] have influence in the affairs of this company.
Translation: you are looking for slaves.
Avantgarde Hebrew science fiction
Do this and word *will* get around. People know each other, and even if you don't list someone as a reference, they may get asked anyway.
I had one employee ghost me. She just stopped coming into the office. Did outstanding work, been with us for a while. But she took a sudden three day unplanned/unannounced absence, then a few weeks later another few days sudden/unplanned absence. We talked, she said they were vacations, sorry, thought I'd told you. Then a month later, she didn't come into work. No reply to emails or voicemails. Ghosted.
We sent a letter to terminate her, saying we assumed by not showing up for a week and a half, she had resigned.
And six months later, I get a call from someone I used to work with, long ago, at a different org. He was somewhere new too. He had an applicant who listed my org on their resume, didn't list me as a reference but wanted to know what I knew about her. Same employee.
She didn't get the job.
Ah, yes, _those_. The last time I had that, I told them that my hourly rate was $200 plus expenses and travel time and I would be happy to interview if they paid that in advance. Got the message across.
Most ACs are not even worth the keystrokes to insult them. Be generically insulted by this and ignored otherwise.
When an employer isn't interested in pursuing a candidate any further, often the employer "ghosts" the candidate or turns around and offers some canned, impersonal, generic rejection letter. Turnabout is fair play!
Let me just advise:
The USA scored high on the "Ignorance Index" not so long ago. I am not sure I'd like to have my employees from a country that score so high on this index.
Moral of story: It's ignorant and silly to use a small segment of a population to draw overreaching conclusions about a country. That country you despise is our only link to the ISS and beats us hands down in a number of tech fields.
Thing is, they do not brag about it. Neither do they throw their weight around that much.
To be honest, I never even considered that people accepting jobs and not showing up would be an issue - (while I speak mostly from the perspective of the German labour law, I believe this is also the case for most other European countries) both parties have an obligation once the employment contract is signed, with the employer being in their right to seek damages for every day that you do not show up and do your job, as agreed. The flip side of this is that it's also quite difficult for the employer to refuse leave requests by the employee, with a far wider range of allowable absences than what would be tolerated on the US side. I am certainly guilty of having interviewed at companies that were competitors at the same time and playing them against each other to up the offer, but I would never have signed something and then try to weasel out of it when something better comes along. On the other hand, I have also seen people take jobs they didn't necessarily want while continuing to look for better ones, and then simply quit their other job during their probation period (typically a 6 month period in which either side is able to terminate the relationship without cause). Once someone has to begin paying damages for every day they don't show up for work (or obtains sufficient awareness of this potentiality), I would imagine people would be a bit more careful about when and what they sign, and the problem would gradually correct itself.
definitely a symptom of excessive affluence, this is a sign of how decadent the privileged have become, normal working people are too busy for this kind of self indulgent crap
I thinks its more certain people not being comfortable with that particular social interaction. They can't bear to actually tell someone something they don't want to hear, so they just avoid it.
Yes, it is highly unprofessional. And that HR recruiter or hiring manager might be working for another company someday, one that you just might be interested in.
I tried to hire a secretary. Never showed up.
Oh you hire blue collar truck drivers. Hate to break it to you, but you have no "authority" in any real sense of the word. You just want cheap labor. Makes sense.
Exactly. He prefers recent (or undocumented) immigrants because they are cheap and will put up with a lot of his BS (his "authority"). This is very common in the trucking industry.
I was going to come here to say something about recruiters.
I've come to the asusmption that the default state of recruiters is to waste my time. In fairness to some recruiters who I know and who are very good, it's the bad 90% giving the good 10% a bad name.
Mostly they are a pain in the arse who are very coy about important details and string you along as long as possible on the belief that once they've "sold" you the job, you'll happily take something at under half the market rate...
I'd say my coversations usually end with either me or the recruiter ghosting each other (i.e. not replying). Usually it happes when my opening reply is SHOW ME THE $$$: either they fail to reply or fail to answer the question in which I fail to reply.
I can't imaging ghosting an employer however, mostly this is because I'm currently at a stage where I don't think I'd take a job that would end that way.
SJW n. One who posts facts.
Yours is the second post mentioning advertising non existent jobs? Wtf?
Can you explain why they would do this?
Meredith Jones, an Indianapolis-based director of human resources for a national restaurant operator, now overbooks interviews, knowing up to 50 percent of candidates for entry-level roles likely won't show up."
An entry level role at a restaurant chain is going to be an incredibly shitty job. And likely to be taken by candidates who need the work pretty ASAP. If they've found something else they're at leat extending the restaurant more respect than they would have got if they'd been employed by ghosting rather than wasting a lot of their time over a long period.
SJW n. One who posts facts.
In "the big city", we use LinkedIn and Google and professional contacts from your last workplace. We see what you've posted, publicly, in technical mailing lists and sometimes even politically. If you applied to my workplace in a senior role, and I were unable to reach any of your former colleagues, I'd be concerned. I'd ask your permission before checking them for references. But the world can be surprisingly small at the senior level.
Non-responsiveness on the part of HR/recruiters isn't just common - after a while, I just assumed it was 'standard practice'.
I don't expect a detailed response from every resume I send in, but I do expect a response if I have gone thru an interview, especially if it included someone from the executive suite. It can be demoralizing to meet with a hiring manager and their boss (maybe a VP), have it go well (smiles all around), then radio silence. At least have the courtesy of an email stating 'We appreciate the time and energy you put into the process, but...'.
I have to agree with the other posters that the recruiters created the environment in which this developed.
Having said all that, I cannot condone an employee accepting a position, filling out some forms, then not showing up to the first day of work. That borders on a sort of fraud or breech: if you went thru the process of filling out onboarding docs, there is a very strongly implied and expressed intent, by both parties, to commit to each other. But then, I suppose some people don't show to their own weddings...
It boils down to standards of behavior - for all aspects of life. And respect. If we develop a society that says that a free-wheeling economy where anything goes is the norm, how to you expect job-seekers *not* to be influenced by that?
Over the years, I've heard of several people "ghosting" their employers. However, in these cases, it was because they had passed away at home, and they lived alone. Since the employer doesn't know why the employee has stopped coming in, they call the police for a wellness check. The police arrive and find the person has passed on.
Long story short, don't ghost, or you may be treated is if you might have become one.
I worked at a university and I've seen it happen twice in the group where I worked. One was a Russian guy who clearly didn't like his job, although he did his best trying to get good results. He disappeared one day, never to return. The other one was an Indian guy who seemed to be quite surprised that he had to do things for his money. He also didn't really like people criticising his work. He also disappeared, leaving us behind and happy, but he returned a few years later to ask for another job. That guy had balls of steel.
-- Cheers!
One of the rules I live by is that everyone deserves respect until they demonstrate otherwise.
If you're going to insult me with a shit contract that's guaranteed to screw me when we part ways, why would you expect anything from me but contempt?
The term 'ghosted' sounds like HR jargon.
It's disappointing to find HR jargon being tossed around on Slashdot. Almost like a leap back to the Dice days (Dice is a headhunter operation that owned Slashdot for awhile.)
Shouldn't you HR types be off somewhere collating resumes to feed into the shredder or something?
A few articles back I read about the huge burn-out problem in the US. That makes for a pretty good explanation. If you're burned out, your mind has pretty much shut down higher reasoning. Recovery usually takes months, so a vacation won't cut it. I wouldn't be surprised if a lot of people just go " ah, fuck it". Combine it with depression or other mental illnesses and you have somebody sitting in a true hellhole. One more reason for companies to actually give a shit about their employees. Here in the Netherlands the employer is also responsible for mental well-being. That's growing in the U.S. and other 1st world countries, but not nearly enough.
A positive attitude may not solve all your problems, but it will annoy enough people to make it well worth the effort.
We all know stories of people who show up to work and their badge wont let them in. They are told nothing, no warning, no anything.
People with 20 years experience show up one day, get taken into a room, told they are being escorted out of the building, that's it.
People come back from lunch, their coworkers desk is empty, no explanation is ever given. You dont even know if they were fired or quit or layed off, they are just "not at the company".
Why do corporate executives expect employees to treat them better than they treat employees?
We use a number of useless recruiters for my company. I hate doing it (almost as much as I hate paying them 20% of the candidate's salary), but it reduces the hiring pain, especially when the market is tight.
Aside from admin positions, the only times we have been treated this way are people who are pretty full of themselves... or just clueless little shits. The absolute worst though is having someone in the office for a day or week, and they just decide to stop doing it. (Two people out of ~50 employees this past year, maybe one or in the prior 15.). Well, maybe not quite as bad as the little shit that milked us for two months until he could find another job...
Stop contributing to the idiocracy. Psychopathy is a specific set of personality traits, not a catch-all phrase for narcissistic assholes. Your mentioning of the ICD may confuse people into thinking your know something about that.
Also let's contribute to a positive development in language even online: replace pussy (which is what you were born out of) with coward which is apparently what you meant.
Not so much for companies, although I have had one company do this to me about 15 years ago. It's unprofessional but it also told me I'd never have wanted to work for them anyway so it was obviously for the best.
Agents though, or as an ex-colleague used to call them 'weasels', have been doing this for a very long time. If it's at the beginning of a conversation I usually ignore it, if we've gone down the road a bit then they normally get the lifetime ban. There's plenty of other people out there recruiting.
Employees are treated as disposable.
Minimum wage jobs are many and varied, and people are likely to jump on the first one thy can get just to pay the bills.
There are too many employers that treat their staff as little more than an inconvenience on top of everything.
Who gets a Christmas Bonus anymore? What employers even offer them?
It's little wonder why people ghost recruiters (vampires) and employers down here at the lowest end of the pay scale. They have nothing to loose. Any employer that checks references on every minimum wage new hire is wasting their time as the vast majority are job-hopping to get enough income for the bare basics and looking to score something that actually pays more. Not that there are any real opportunities for such employees in many areas.
In a nutshell: there is no respect among the minimum wage employer/employee jobscape.
However in the city theee is a lot of employee turn around. That employing manager at company X in 6 months can be a hiring manager at company Y.
He may have left X for Y for the same reasons why you didn’t like X. However he may remember your name and link it to the lack of professionalism, then portray his story to others.
I work in an average size city, when I switch jobs I tend to run into people who I have worked with in the past.
If something is so important that you feel the need to post it on the internet... It probably isn't that important.
Get the mark into a position where they're eager to jump at anything, then go, "Damn, the company hired someone else, but I do have THIS job lined up!" which is about half the pay, but if you've already made moves that require you to have SOME kind of employment it'll suddenly sound much more attractive.
-=This sig has nothing to do with my comment. Move along now=-
Years age we had a sysadmin move on to a new job and a year later apply back. He was a pretty good admin and I told the boss this. He got the job but “ghosted” us. Just not show up on the first day, Then a year later apply again. I asked him and he’d had another job he’d applied for that was better that accepted him so he took that one. I let the new boss that he was a good admin but he had simply not shown up for the first day last time. He didn’t get hired.
[John]
Shit better not happen!
Has anyone ever received a rejection call from an employer? Cause I sure haven't. If employers want people to tell them they are not accepting a job offer, then those employers damn well better be calling everyone who did NOT get the job.
If you haven't been paid, you don't owe them shit.
I'm guessing what they're talking about is the job is real, however the position is effectively already filled. They wrote up the job with a specific person in mind for it but due to various policies they're required to post the job. The chance of anyone applying for it and actually getting it instead of the person they want are effectively 0.
Did you know 80 to 90% of the moderators on slashdot wouldn't recognize a troll even if one dragged them under a bridge.
The one and only time I "ghosted" an employer was when I was in college. I had accepted a job as a clerk at a regional grocery chain. It was shit work, nearly as bad as working at a national restaurant chain, but it was work.
Before my first day of work, I wound up being able to return to school, and thus was able to get my student assistant position back. There was no way I was going to report to work as a grocery worker when my paid internship paid twice as much and was on campus.
"Oh my God. This is terrible. This is the end of my Presidency. I'm fucked."; ~ Donald J. Trump
True. Unfortunately, finding someone that will stick around for 5-10 years to the point that they are truly an executive assistant is hard, and longevity is what provides the value.
Who is "them"? in this case? The company or recruiter who treated you unprofessionally? Or any recruiter or company?
If construction was anything like programming, an incorrectly fitted lock would bring down the entire building...
They always responded quickly and pushed on the employer and even helped me get a higher salary than they were offering. Of course they were based locally. These recruiters calling from across the pacific that I can barely understand, those companies should be run out of business.
Yes well I think the problem is that if it becomes clear that a prospective employer selects a different candidate the in between recruiter often just 'drops' you without notice. Not a very nice thing to do. However this can be remedied by making contact yourself every now-and-again. And building a good relationship with recruiters can be an advantage if you want to score the next project.
Not showing up for a job or just leaving one without notice is plain rude. And plain stupid. People tend to notice and remember.
I just phoned them to let them know that I'd found something else.
I have seen it on both sides. It's not "foreigners". It's the type of person who has come over. Most of those are well educated or at least well bought up on honor and service (contrary to what many think).
But go oversees and see how foreman basically have to hire every morning for that days construction assignment. They don't expect the same person to come back more than a few days straight. They are so used to it that they are happy just getting the head count for the job.
Similar in call centers/factory workers. People don't "resign", they just go work for the company up or down stairs. This is after they received training and signed/contracted to stay a year or two at the current employer. Because of the training, the other companies are willing to pay more.
Move up to IT off shore teams. I have seen teams do all kinds of damage control for missing members. They will login as the employee, do bare minimum work to meet requirements (push it to testing and rework), spread the work to an on bench person whom you didn't onboard, etc. Eventually after they replaced the position, 2-3 months later they will tell you he left and request onboarding the replacement. Through back channels you find out he just stopped coming and went to a company across the street. Better pay or boss.
This is primarily because those companies treat their employees worse. But overall, domestically US employees are much better than domestic employees in many other countries.
But the old adage is true: Treat others like you want to be treated.
Techies are hired to tech. Not to socialize. HR is hired to socialize. The lack of professionalism is from HR departments across the board, not employees.
HR departments seem to be trained to deal with poor people with no skills, and so they treat everyone like an indentured servent. When they finally have to deal with skilled workers who won't take their shit, they get all indignant.
Company recruiters "ghost" candidates all the time. They do this because they have a candidate in the process of ahiring but if that candidate does not accept they want to be able to offer the job to one of the other candidates. So recruiters never want to tell any candidate they did not get the job. The result is recruiters just avoid talking to candidates. Candidates "ghosting" seem to be a thing now because it is making recruitment difficult, especially in hot industries where candidates have multiple offers going. Perhaps this will cause recruiters to be more open in their conversations with candidates.
--
Luck is just skill you didn't know you had.
If you have time to deal with the jobs you're not getting, you are wasting your time.
He obviously had better things to do.
The experience is fairly similar to mine, and I am hiring white collar engineers. If I had to guess, 50% of our workforce are immigrants, another 35% first generation. Not really about money, just the breakdown of people we get today where we are. Salary is a lot less critical compared to ability to learn and personality.
While that's a notable anecdote, I wonder how many people apply to a place three times.
Bullshit. If explaining why you are not hiring someone opens you up to legal liability, then your hiring practices are illegal and you should be ruined.
I've had it where I make it to the final interviewer and they seem ecstatic over me. In the middle of the interview the wording changes from "the job entails" to "you will be doing X" and that and then the company goes silent after the interview
Ghosting is a disturbing behaviour. The more often people do it, the more normal it becomes for people to stop checking in on each other when something goes wrong. If I suddenly "fell off the map", I would like society to look into it, and people not to default to "oh, he probably just ghosted us". As a human, you don't owe people an extended explanation for ceasing an online discussion or exchange, but I do think it one should end with at least a "No thank you", if only to maintain the social norm that we all should be concerned about each other's well-being.
A couple of things:
- recruiters often approach you unsolicited with jobs that you don't care about or when you may not be looking. There's no onus n you to get back to them.
- employers and recruiters have been ghosting candidates for decades. In fact, it's the norm when they aren't interested or are no longer interested in a candidate.
So I find it kind of strange that recruiters would be confused by this at all...
I haven't been job hunting in recent years, but definitely have found employers to be very inconsiderate on this matter. I've never ghosted..
Also have been surprised to hear people with hourly retail or food service jobs walked out immediately after giving two weeks notice. Puts people in a bind who are depending on steady pay. I advise college age workers to pay attention to how their employer operates and act accordingly..
"They that give up essential liberty to obtain a little temporary safety deserve neither liberty nor safety"-B.Franklin
So first of all how often do you even get told why they didn't hire you after the interview. Pretty much never. If you're lucky they'll tell you that you weren't the right fit. However most likely they'll either tell you nothing or bald faced lie to you. (Yes, I'm sure you didn't hire me because you found the absolute perfect candidate, that's why you reposted the exact same job with the exact same job number 2 days later.) I get that they might not want to tell me for legal reasons but just making up excuses why they didn't hire me is just horseshit.
Then of course unprofessionalism on the actual interview itself. I've had interviewers be late(20+ minutes) when I'd show up or they even had to run around to find someone to do the interview. Hey here's a good one, I did a lunch interview with someone that didn't get you can't talk and eat at the same time. Of course she tried her damnedest to do just that. The food would constantly fall out of her mouth on to her plate because she wouldn't stop talking and then, I shit you not, she would scoop back up into her mouth.(Completely nauseating) At the end she literally licked her hand from wrist to finger tip.(I wish I was making that one up.)
Of course beyond that there are the games revolving around the interview. Sometimes they'll suddenly remember that they need you to do another interview or a Skype call. Really this is them wanting you to go away but for some stupid reason they just don't want to say not interested so they try to exhaust you. Or how about them asking you to do some version of FizzBuzz during a phone screen and of course you find out how few actually know the point of that test so they screw it up.(I wonder how many of them even know what the test is called.)
Of course I shouldn't forget fake jobs. The ones where they already know whom they're going to hire and it's a formality but there's some rule that says they have to post it. Of course they have to bring in a few people to make it look good but they're just wasting people's time since only their intended candidate is getting that job.
Last but not least is just generally screw ups during application process. Things like doing the initial phone screen twice because they forgot they had already done it and then trying to set up the tech screen on a holiday.(I kept asking her, are you sure she can do it then? Monday is a holiday. She set up the phone screen and got back to me a few days later saying that the tech manager can't do it that day.) Or how about asking if you can come in the day after tomorrow for an on site after telling them repeatedly I need a week since I'm currently working and have to ask for a day off to do an interview?(Which is apparently very hard for them to understand.)
Suffice it to say, if you act like spoiled 5 year old expect the same behavior in kind when the tables have turned.
Did you know 80 to 90% of the moderators on slashdot wouldn't recognize a troll even if one dragged them under a bridge.
2 different stories.
1) I took a contract position, 6 months. At this place, the guy responsible for ensuring contracts were renewed was a flake. 1st time, I asked the day my contract ended and he didn't know anything about it. I said, no contract, no work. Left at the end of the day. Monday rolled around and I didn't show up. He was panicked, working to get the extension pushed through, but it would be 2-3 more days. ... we need you today." he said. "I"m across the country, skiing, can't be back until the following Monday." I said. That happened 3 more times over the 9 yrs I worked there.
6 months later, I didn't mention the contract was expiring and planned a week vacation without telling anyone. Skiing. Contract expired on Friday and I flew off to SLC for a week of epic skiing. Monday morning, got a cell phone call asking where I was. "Contract ended Friday", I said. "Oh
The last time, they decided that a contractor should be an employee if they worked there more than 2 yrs. Smart, but not for me. My contract ended in early November, so I planned to travel about 6 months in Asia after the Holidays spent with family in different states. I didn't mention this to anyone at work. 3 days prior to the contract end, the boss texts that he'd gotten the "employee paperwork" approved so I could switch over on Monday. That was the first I'd heard about that idea. I didn't want to be an employee. They'd asked a few times over the years, but I always turned them down. I said no thanks and wished him luck. Turned out that 80% of the people in my group who were contractors had decided the same thing. He was desperate.
2) Interviewed for a position at a major DoD company where I'd fill 2 positions they had opened due to my skills. It was clear that I was a perfect fit, because I'd already had a clearance and my degree would directly support flight testing of a new aircraft (deployed now and kicking ass). Nobody I spoke with was qualified to interview me on anything technical. This was quickly known. I'd loose more knowledge in computing if I worked there than I ever gained.
The boss finally came in and told me all the ways I'd be fired for about 10 minutes. He was an old, gruff, ex-military type, who felt he needed to control start, lunch, end times. 5 minutes late 3 times would mean I was fired. No thanks.
I left the interview and never contacted them again. A week later, the boss called asking where I was on the job. I told him I'd accepted a position at a less hostile workplace where they respected employees. His response,"oh."
Poor communications, in both directions, is where the failure happens. At hiring time, the prospective employees have all the power. It is the last time any employee has much real power, often.
When I did hiring, I was looking for a "good fit" for both sides. We needed smart people who would be able to fit into the culture and do great work. If the applicant doesn't like us, they won't enjoy work, which is bad too. 2-way street. We were pretty relaxed, but about 3 days a month, we'd have customers and needed to dress up a little more and keep the spitballs to a minimum. It was a software development house.
I knew one case where a newly hired manager didn't show on the Monday morning he was supposed to start. This was somebody hired to edit a computer industry magazine that was big at the time, filling the job that my new boss had held before the publishing company had transferred him to be publisher of the magazine I worked for. I was an editorial manager at the time, so I got called into the drama. The two magazines were at different locations, and by about 10 a.m. my boss started getting calls saying the new guy had not arrived yet. Before long, my boss called me in and started asking me what could be going on. All we could think of was that something might have happened to him, maybe a car accident or heart attack. He hadn't called or anything/ This was back in the early 80s, and my boss was around 55-60 then, and he had never heard of anything like it. I was a lot younger, and neither had I. We spent quite a while talking -- he was anxious because he had been a founder of that magazine, and knew he would have to deal with that issue as well as try to run the magazine I worked for. The guy never showed up, and never called in. He had been working for another industry magazine in another state, and I wondered if his family had balked at moving. I could have understood that, but at 30 then, I couldn't imagine not calling to say he had a change of heart. Looking back and reading other posts, I wonder if there may have been a problem with a recruiter. The recruiter hired to replace me when I left several months later failed to spot a serious potential issue with my replacement, although he did work out eventually.
And it's to put him or her in a shell.
#DeleteFacebook
Yes, totally has nothing to do with not wanting to work with someone who has justified mutilating their genitals to, all while taking mood-altering drugs.
There's totally not a 40% chance of them being schizophrenic, having bi-polar disorder, or being an insanely over-sensitive pedant who is impossible to work around because literally everything is a personal affront to them.
I don't care that someone is trans. I only care about how they behave, and the four trans people I've worked with over the years have all literally been insane, and created toxic interactions with everyone.
It's not an escaping issue. It's an encoding issue. And it's an intentional choice on /.'s part, not a failure.
I was doing contract work for a small website development and hosting company. They had a breach they couldn't track down, so they just used a cron job to restore the compromised file every 5 minutes. They also stored plaintext passwords in a mysql database on their front-end web server and said they'd 'eventually' get around to making it more secure. Finally, they asked me to start faking pci compliance checks so they could start taking credit cards. I walked away from that shit.
"You never know when some crazed rodent with cold feet might be running loose in your pants."
-Calvin
Don't burn your bridges, especially if you're the troll.
Don't stop to put out a bridge fire if there are hundreds of other bridges. It really has to do with who needs who, the employer or the employee. Who's the pretty girl and who's the slavering douchebag? Cause the pretty girl never treats the slavering douchebag with respect.
I don't know of any law in the U.S. that could restrict your right to not show up for work or to compel communication with your employer in such a manner. You can't sign a contract that makes you an indentured servent or restricts your freedom of association. Any contract that attempted to do so would be unenforceable.
I've done it twice. I'm mentally ill with bouts of severe depression. Once I left a second job I had been in for three months. Was so stressed out and I was too ashamed to tell my employer. Self-loathing can be a bitch. Another time I had a written job offer that I had a verbally agreed to. But the offer came in for less money and smaller bonus then previously discussed. The HR person lectured me that it was their one and only offer, they would not negotiate and that I was to tell the third party recruiter who connected us that their would be no negotiation. It was really disappointing because I wanted the job I ghosted them at that point. Why didn't I just say no thanks? I just didn't want to face that this job I had really wanted fell apart. Stupid, but again my brain don't work right.
I'm not a total loser. I work past the dark days and I've been employed in IT for the last year doing great work. I wouldn't blame any future employer for not hiring me because of these actions.
What have I learned? Whenever I deal with problem people I remember there is probably more going on then I know. I try to give people the benefit of the doubt. I forgive mistakes. I try to de-escalate situations. It works. I just came in as a contractor on a team and the meetings were insane - unfocused, people yelling, anger, so-on. I took hold of the meetings by steering the conversation well (I wasn't the meeting leader) and got the emotion out the meeting without tearing anyone down. Suddenly we are getting shit down.
Also, in the U.S., no one signs anything until their first day.
In fairness to some recruiters who I know and who are very good, it's the bad 90% giving the good 10% a bad name.
10% good? I think you're being generous!
So the solution is to avoid ignorant bigots and trannies.
I won't ghost a recruiter or company with whom I've positively responded. Especially not if I have an interview scheduled. I'll call to cancel. That said, I will absolutely avoid calls from recruiters who call me once a month when I'm not looking. If they leave a voice mail I wont' respond. If they email I'll ignore it. Etc. But that's ignoring initial contact, not suddenly going silent once a conversation has begun.
It's also worth noting companies will sometimes (often?) ghost candidates. I've had multiple on-site interviews where the company never even bothered to call or email to tell me they'd decided to pass. Just...nothing. Even had a company make me an offer (by voice mail I think), then go dark when I tried to contact them to accept it. Emails and voicemails weren't returned, the whole nine yards. Guess they found a stronger candidate?
This isn't something that happens around industry, this is specifically something that primarily happens at entry level....as the article noted as well, but there is significantly more corroborating evidence outside of this discussions.
Like the old adage, you get what you pay for. Entry level applicants are the lowest common denominator, and you should expect the pool of candidates to reflect that.
A worker who does not keep time? What role would a fictional movie consider that for?
On the workers considered for that first day of work.
What was their university education like? Do well in the given time for study? Pass exams? Do all the work needed on time?
Friends and politics at university?
Past work? Did they show up for past jobs? Work well with others? Had the skills to keep time each day?
Social media use? Look too new? Look altered? Do the social media images have a new quality as the text goes back many years?
Does the presented lifestyle look like it was written by a committee, a person with a different skill set?
In debt? Holidays? Wealth?
Lifestyle patterns around the ability to keep time and work usually show up over the years.
When all that looks too perfect and almost like it was created the following could have happened:
Industrial espionage, government spying.
Police investigation.
Undercover journalist.
Political activist.
Cult.
Pen-test to get into a location. Data collection from a secure area.
Domestic spying is now "Benign Information Gathering"
I can't help but feel that men - through the social norms of dating - have much more experience in disassociating their self esteem from how they are treated. Perhaps there's an equal rights argument to be made for HR departments not being such irrepressible dicks.
Between 70%-85% of job openings in private sector are never listed at all. Rather, when an opening happens, someone at the company knows somebody who would be a fit, typically someone they used to work with. That's how MOST jobs are filled.
My first salaried job in a big company was like that. I had worked with a guy doing "side gigs" and he knew I was passively looking for a new job - I would be interested if the right position came along. When the right position opened up in the agency he worked for, he called me, and recommend me to the hiring manager. Policy required interviewing three people, but the job was mine because he recommended me bases on knowing I had acted professionally and done a good job before.
From that company, I have a few contacts. My old boss was good, so I've told her to let me know if she's ever in the market for a new job, and she's told me the same. Her and her boss have told me more than once they'll have a spot for me if I ever want to come back.
There are a few other people from the job who I've communicated with the same way - if either of us ever needs a job, or has the right position open, we'll contact each other. We wouldn't do that with unprofessional people who ghosted.
So it's not so much that a stranger will call around (though that happens to), but rather people WON'T call the unprofessional people, they WILL call the people they've worked with who were highly professional.
My last boss is now a high-ranking VP for a major bank. He's hired me before, and I think I did a good job for him, so whenever I need a new job I can always get a job at his bank. I expect he WILL call people he still knows at my current company, confirming that I haven't become an unprofessional asshole since he and I last worked together.
Yours is the second post mentioning advertising non existent jobs? Wtf?
Can you explain why they would do this?
There are lots of reasons:
1) The job is already filled internally but they are legally required to post it.
2) They have a new or existing employee and they are wanting to know what they employee is worth compared to other people.
3) There is a potential position and they do want to hire someone but they need to know what's out there and what it will cost
before getting approval for a salary range.
4) The job did really exist but they quickly found someone they liked but left the job "open" just in case the first person falls thru.
5) It's a position that frequently has openings and they want to be able to fill it quickly when an opening does happen.
There are likely a bunch of other similar reasons too but most probably fall into the two categories of
either "market research" and/or "job technically exists but is currently unavailable to be filled"
I just ask for their firstborn.
On an unrelated note, is anybody interested in adopting a bunch of small children?
CLI paste? paste.pr0.tips!
That is not bullshit at all. You will *never* get an answer to that question, or at least not an honest one. It's far too easy to get yourself in a lawsuit even if you are 100% within the law, and you only need a "Occupy" or other SJW type on the jury that "hates big corporations" or is seen to have deep pockets, and you can lose at great cost. If you don't understand that, you are absurdly naive.
Not that recruiters cutting off applicants is any better, but not to recognize why an explanation is a dead loser for the company is absurd.
get yourself a secretary. worth every penny.
Except if they send the contract to the wrong guy! I didn't realise until the Monday morning when the -worst- of the bunch turned up. I almost died. Fortunately he at least had a brain, so by lunchtime told me the job wasn't for him.. phew.
I won't bother to reply to a recruiter who sends something out of the blue.
If I start a conversation however, I will make clear that I'm not interested explicitly once I figure that out.
I have never had a situation where the other party failed to notify me of the situation if they had previously actually replied to my message.
XML is like violence. If it doesn't solve the problem, use more.
Funny thing happened to me once, I was actually interested in a very short term contract position, and the client asked me an hourly rate to open negotiations. I was young and I thought "I'll open realy crazy to force them to coutner" and said "$80/hr" and they so quickly said yes without a counter offer and they expressed how relieved they were...
Oh well, was a nice bonus at a rough time in my life anyway.
XML is like violence. If it doesn't solve the problem, use more.
The lesson you learned from this is that once the recruiter has introduced you to the company, there is no reason to continue to filter communications through the recruiter. Just deal directly with the company.
in high school, in the early 1990s, i somehow got a job as telephone solicitor for the Fairfax County Police Association. it was sketchy as hell. there were no computers or automation. there were about 15 of us, including the boss. we sat in a trailer somwhere off of Popes Head Road, and were handed huge piles of paper, which were basically printouts from some kind of phone book. lists of names, phone numbers, and addresses. the bulk of our pay was earned through commission -- meaning the more money we convinced people to give, the more we made. also, we didn't take credit cards or anything like that. after getting a verbal agreement to a certain amount, we mailed them a "bill" in an envelope, and hoped like hell they paid it. we didn't get our commission until we got that envelope back in the mail and the checks cleared. only a small percentage of what people agreed to donate over the phone ever came back as commission.
it was basically a room full of high school kids desperately trying to sound like cops without actually coming out and saying they were cops at any point, and trying to make the FCPA sound like a charity without actually calling it a charity. also, some of the vets had figured out spiels that they would use on non-Fairfax residents. they'd call up some of the richer/older neighborhoods in neighboring counties of Arlington and Loudoun, and get them to donate through an exceptionally sketchy cocktail of never quite saying where exactly what county's police they were representing. the FCPA did not care where the money came from.
the best marks, by far, were easily-confused old people. some of the guys knew exactly what to say to them to make it seem like this was a regular payment they made, like they were just renewing an obligation. the amount of arm-twisting these young dudes were willing to exert on destitute and lonely old women was really sad, but that's what happens inevitably when you hire a bunch of 17 and 18 year olds, and an older authority figure acts like it's what you're supposed to do, and literally the only incentive provided is cash in direct proportion to the money you bring in.
i didn't have a very convincingly authoritative voice at 17, so i wasn't particularly good at it anyway, but the main reason i disappeared was the job was absolutely soul-crushing. i did not take the job seriously at all -- my dad made me do it. i did not blame anyone one even a little bit for not donating money -- i knew it was complete bullshit. i didn't stake my ego on my salesmanship skills -- i took pride in a lot of other skills and aspects of my personality. i didn't feel bad after any particular negative call. i certainly didn't take it personally. i knew they were rejecting giving money to a bullshit cause, not rejecting me personally. but the reality is 95% of the calls you made were negative. almost always semi-polite no's, as well. nothing too harsh. you would think it'd be easy to brush off, especially if you had a healthy sense of perspective. and each individual call was easy to brush off. but there is something cumulative there. something subconscious. when a person is told "no" thousands of times, even if each individual "no" is meaningless in the moment, it ends up snowballing into an invisible mountain of depression. i've commiserated with other former telephone solicitors who have brought up the exact same effect without prompting. i was DYING from thousands of individual rejections that i absolutely didn't even care about at all, and never took personally. but one day i got to the point where i physically could not make my body take me to that place.
the level of anxiety and fear that accompanied me driving there just became so blindly overwhelming that i'd instead drive down Braddock to the Beltway, and just do a fucking loop all the way around the thing, and tell my dad i went to work. it cost me like $20 in gas every time i did this, but the alternative felt worse than death.
so yeah, sorry, sleazy FCPA phone bank manager, for that one mediocre employee who disappeared on you. i'm sure you were worried sick about me. i'm feeling much better, for the record!
i could live a little longer in this prison
Thee are many reasons. The most malicious is to steal your identity: many people are less careful of their personal details with a recruiter who is "running a background check". Or they may "bait and switch", offer you a less lucrative or less skilled role when you've already invested time and effort in making a good impression with them. There is also an infamous practice of advertising roles in the market and accepting only the intended, much cheaper, H1B candidate with spurious requirements. There is also an infamous bureaucratic practice of getting approved to hire various personnel, expanding the department headcount, but never actually hiring the personnel. That last is used to justify overtime and more office space or benefits for the staff onsite "until we can fill those slots".
There are many other reasons to present an opening that does not really exist. The penalty for withdrawing an advertised role is usually quite low, and the benefits can be quite high. So I'm afraid that some fraud there is inevitable.
First, let's be clear: It's recruiters, not employers who are whining that they're not receiving the attention they desire from prospects.
As far as you anecdote, "...Did outstanding work, been with us for a while. But she took a sudden three day unplanned/unannounced absence..." is not a "ghost". That's called "No-Call, No-Show". Completely different animal.
Employees and employers have certain duties to one another; in most cases, the most basic ones are "showing up ready for work" and "paying the employee".
Engaging a recruiter in a conversation does NOT imply a duty to continue the conversation. Same thing works the other way around--the recruiter doesn't have a duty to follow up with you about the job you applied for.
"Reality is that which, when you stop believing in it, doesn't go away." - Philip K. Dick
You seem nice.
I interviewed for a job position, and a whole 4 months after my last interview with them, they called me back and offered the position.
By that time I had been working for 2 months at another company that I applied to after I gave up on that position.
XML is like violence. If it doesn't solve the problem, use more.
Recruiters are often independent agencies who act as a middleman, earning a commission equal to a few months' salary if a company decides to hire an applicant that the recruiter puts them in contact with. No affiliation with the company, they're just willing to make cold calls which employers/applicants are often uncomfortable doing. I've seen all sorts of scummy behavior from recruiters. If you're trying to punish employers for the had behavior of recruiters, you're targeting the wrong people.
Different sort of candidate, apparently.
Yes, yes it does. This is 'merkuh where there are no employee protections, corporations rule the nest, and you can be fired for no reason. So how does that benefit people again?
That response makes no sense.
what? all of them? what goes around comes around. why should i should courtesy of any sort when they show none at all, ever?
why should i show any courtesy*
This term only exists because of stupid Millennials (of which I am one). Millennials are the worst. Stop being a coward and communicate straight with people, you losers.
I wish there was a better way. I might try speculative approaches to companies that I'd like to work for.
const int one = 65536; (Silvermoon, Texture.cs)
SJW, n: "Someone I don't like, and by the way I'm a fuckwit" - AC
Dotslash?
Yours is the second post mentioning advertising non existent jobs? Wtf?
Can you explain why they would do this?
A lot of companies are recruiting people in fishing expeditions. If a really excellent canditate interviews, they'll try to figure out a position for them. But basically, no, there isn't an actual job opening.
Where I worked, that was SOP.
The shepherds did so well protecting the flock that the sheep no longer believed that wolves existed.
That's why I make up companies and have three burner phones so you can contact me and do your sneaky shit directly to my face without realizing it.
... who, after some back-and-forth, hired me for some systems work at his insurance company.
I was in his office, a glass-enclosed cubicle surrounded by female administrative assistants.
He told me that he'd walk me around to make introductions to the stupid women help, conspiratorially, like we'd be the ruling good ole' boys.
They could hear.
I was polite to the staff, of course, and I could tell that, because jobs were tight back then, these women were suffering this sorry motherfucker because they needed the goddam job.
They looked like whipped dogs.
Goddam motherfucking son of a bitching sorry ass yellow belly blue balled bastard.
I looked each lady in the eye and strolled out the door as he said, "Blah, blah, blah, blah ..."
I got voicemails offering more pay and asking me why I walked out ...
I told my wife that this guy was useless as tits on a boar and he wasn't going to get one molecule of respect from me.
He went away after a few months.
It little behooves the best of us to comment on the rest of us.
tl;dr - Ghosting before accepting an offer seems rude but not out of line with how candidates are treated. Ghosting after an offer and not giving notice are unfathomable to me.
I'd be curious to find out what the age breakdown is for the study. My instinct tells me it's a younger crowd that would accept a job offer then not show up or ever contact the employer again. That's something they do socially so doing it professionally would seem to fit right in.
Now leaving without giving notice or even saying you're leaving is entirely different. Zero day resignation is telling them you're leaving NOW and while companies frown on it they're the same people who will escort you out the door when you give two week notice. The double standard is painfully ironic. Having said that I can't think of a time when simply not showing up any more would be considered acceptable behavior.
When I'm job hunting I generally submit my resume, save a copy of the job description and company (if provided), and pretty much forget about it. I only keep the job description because the same job can be listed by multiple recruiters and applying for a job more than once kills your chances. If I hear back from them - great! Otherwise I've come to expect the dead silence after submission.
After an interview? Same thing. I don't send thank you notes because the interviews have been panel interviews, panel with people on the phone, multiple people, and people who are smart enough not to give their contact information. All communication has been through the recruiter or HR. I stopped trying to do that little politeness years ago when I found I simply couldn't get the contact information. So like job submission I let it go unless they have stated a specific timeframe for a response and I have a way to contact the HR person or the recruiter.
The only time I've gotten timely responses has been for a job with the US federal government. They're required to acknowledge all job submissions (other places do that too) and they're required to tell you if you haven't been selected to move forward. I think that should be required by all companies. They don't have to give a reason but it would be nice to put a check mark next to that job and say it's gone.
I manage properties. It's a business I know well. Rental applicants have been "ghosting" forever. Until now we just called it blowing us off. It's so common in this arena that I'll occasionally tell the clearly ambivalent to do it if they decide to pass on the space. "You don't have to tell me no or let me down easy," I'll say, "I only need to know if you're going to take the place. Otherwise good luck." But tell them or not, almost all do it anyway. Now I say go ahead and ghost me, which generally earns a wry smirk. That's not so bad but when they blow off reserved showings and typically around half do, it's a little irritating when you've set aside valuable time just for them. I imagine it's commonplace in sales.
I can definitely understand why someone would be tempted to do this, but if you think there's even the slightest chance you may want to apply for a job with that company/recruiter again, it's probably not a good idea. It shows a lack of maturity and professionalism, imo.
Fuck yes like 90% of the place I've applied never respond back even once. As for the other way around, yes, I ghosted on Radio Shack (Canada.) They scheduled me to come in at 6am the day after Christmas, and this was just after the lost the lease on the name, so I was supposed to spend the next week going through the store and re-labeling everything with a Radio Shack logo on it, using stickers. I was like "fuck this" and slept in and never went back. When working for Toronto Computes! Magazine in the 90's, there was another guy in the test lab who worked for a different magazine. He just stopped coming in one day, and they kept paying him for 6 months before someone from management finally called me to ask why he wasn't submitting completed work and I was like "I thought he was fired he hasn't been here for 6 months..."
I work in midtown Atlanta and run into the same people constantly. I work with people now, four companies later, that I was working with in 1999. I probably know at least a person or two at most tech companies with at least a few employees. The community here is surprisingly small and you never know who you'll run into.
An employer? No ... a recruiter? Maybe.
And six months later, I get a call from someone I used to work with, long ago, at a different org. He was somewhere new too. He had an applicant who listed my org on their resume, didn't list me as a reference but wanted to know what I knew about her. Same employee.
She didn't get the job.
You admit to breaking the law. You can't give negative reviews about past employees to potential employers.
Why should anyone believe to you?
Have been ghosted in the past, by employers, but something tells me this is a risky trick to pull if you're looking for a job. People do notice and being a dick occasionally backfires.
Bait-and-switch is absolutely the worst. One big divide is between device driver programmers in embedded C/assembly language and application developers using C++ and STL/Boost algorithms. The majority of local industry does the C++ side of things and offers the highest salaries, so that's where everyone tried to head to. If an employer is looking to fill both sets of roles, interviews someone and perceives that the candidate has the slightest whiff of the embedded/C side of things that's where they will try and push them at the interview, simply because they just can't find anyone else.
I've ghosted various recruiters simply due to this practise. Sometimes they have auto-mailers that just send out a single vacancy to everyone on their candidate list regardless of interests. Due to the fact that they use macro personalisation, it looks like they are personally sending the message to you , even though they have been told that you are not interested in that type of work. So it just grinds on and on. They won't listen, so disconnection is the only option.
6) It's what I call a cannon fodder position. A merger is planned and if it goes through the job will be eliminated to meet quota.
The EEO-1 Report listing racial breakdown of current employees of required under OEC regulations promulgated under Section VII of the Civil Rights Act of 1964.
As far as any requirement to publicly list job openings - citation sorely needed, because it's common knowledge, supported by many surveys, that the majority of openings are never listed.
Oh you hire blue collar truck drivers. Hate to break it to you, but you have no "authority" in any real sense of the word. You just want cheap labor. Makes sense.
Not even that. He ran it, not owned it. Claimed to be an employer. That "Trust me, with our drivers" and authority speak are all huge red flags to this ex-driver that he is just a dispatcher. The dude that tells people where to go. He's a petty tyrant on a power trip that likes foreign born because they do not know their rights and are willing to drive 20 hours straight through, forging log books just because their dispatcher told them so.
Ever wonder why there are so many bad truck drivers and so many horrific accidents from drivers falling asleep? Blame people like bogaboga.
Restaurants are crappy jobs at entry level. they will likely screw the candidate around a great deal. It seems a bit rich whining about a minor ghosting.
SJW n. One who posts facts.
When they contact you, tell then "$2000 a day plus expenses." They go away pretty quickly after that.
I'm trying to teach myself to set people on fire with my mind... Is it hot in here?
'Can't' is not the same as 'most don't, by company policy, because they're afraid of shysters'.
John McAfee 'It was like that time I hired that Bangkok prostitute; to do my taxes, while I fucked my accountant'
"Millions" of tech workers in any city in the world? I think maybe you live in a bubble if you genuinely think this.
When employers have failed to follow through with terms agreed to and attempts to correct are brushed off or rebuffed. See ya.
More often that that I have been some managers plan B, and I have been strung along (sometimes for weeks) and then ghosted by them.
Rick B.
Read the whole post.
Then again, I was never afraid to tell anyone why I was leaving, good or bad.
The only recruiters I'm remotely concerned about work for the company they're recruiting for. I might respond politely to those. The rest can go hang themselves. The more they're ghosted the better I feel. Their job is parasitic by nature, as is the likes of LinkedIn. Anything that devalues and frustrates their existence is fine by me.
Don't even respond to requests out of the blue, at least on LinkedIn. It costs them an InMail point to send one, but they get it back if you reply. Just ignore them and they lose their point. Let them stew.
Every time a recruiter told me that they had an "URGENT" position to fill, I told them that the hiring manager went on a six-week vacation to India. Recruiters are shocked — SHOCKED! — to discover that the hiring manager was on vacation.
Goodbye, Slashdot!
Here are quite a few for you to choose from.
https://www.google.com/search?...
Yeah, how about you let *them* make the decision of whether you're worth interviewing or not. They know the nature of their business and they've seen your CV, so if you do have some unique skills they might want to interview anyway.
Never ask an employee to do a job, that you wouldn't do, if you were in his shoes and were afraid of getting fired.
John McAfee 'It was like that time I hired that Bangkok prostitute; to do my taxes, while I fucked my accountant'
I've known a bunch of net negative workers. In America, not just Indians, though they do 'overperform' in this respect, Chinese, American, Euro. Also other traits you'd think wouldn't allow net negative workers through, e.g. PhD or ex-marine corps officer. Still worse than useless on a software team.
They've all got a few airthieves in the mix, they're everywhere.
John McAfee 'It was like that time I hired that Bangkok prostitute; to do my taxes, while I fucked my accountant'
Never ghosted, but it depends what you do. I went for one job years ago because I specifically wanted experience in field X.
I enquired specifically about this at the interview and they promised me oodles of experience in field X.
Couple'a weeks later I realised that I was never gonna get any experience in field X because they outsourced all field X stuff.
Interviewed for a different job that really had lots of field X work and explained my situation, which didn't faze 'em.
Went back to the original business and gave them the mandatory six weeks notice.
The CEO went ballistic and promised that he would make sure I never get another job in my profession.
"Just wait until I tell them!, he raged.
"I just did, and they're totally OK with it", says I.
But it was a chilly six-weeks, I can tell you.....
Mac
It makes complete sense. Trucking is a stressful job that takes a tremendous toll on your health and personal life. There's a trucker shortage right now and if you have a couple years experience and a clean driving record you can make some pretty decent money. Average first year pay driving for Walmart is over $80,000. Carriers that built their business models dependent on cheap labor are inevitably going to find it hard to keep drivers' butts in their seats.
You can't spell "oneiromancy" without "roman".
Many companies don't let you know if you've been turned down and why.
Shoe is just on the other foot now. "Hi, I've applied to many jobs, due to the amount of jobs I've applied to only those I've chosen to proceed forward with will be contacted"
Just like you decide if you'll call someone back based on the quality of your other applicants, now people are doing it to employers. Not so nice is it?
I was on the tech job market recently and here are the responses I received from 14 job applications.
The bad:
- Submit application, and they never responded: 6
- Submit application, then 3 months of silence, then a form-letter rejection: 1
- On-site interview, then 3 weeks of silence, not responding to any of my emails, then a rejection: 1
- A 2-month interview process, including two rounds of on-site interviews, and finally they said, "We decided not to fill the position after all": 1
The good:
- Submit application, then a quick rejection: 3
- Phone screen, then quick rejection: 1
- Job offers: 2
You're in the only fairly normal city in a very large multi-state backwater area, so duh.
It doesn't mean it is normal.
It isn't about shysters, it is about burden of proof; the burden of proving that the statements are true falls on the employer when the words are intended to reduce their chances at employment. Employers don't want to have to pay for that many hours of legal work, even when they have good documentation. That is why so many refuse to say anything at all other than verifying employment dates; it leaves it implied that if they had anything good to say, it would be by a supervisor listed as a reference.
Only if you get sued, by a god damn shyster.
They 'can' say bad things, just most employers tell them not to, because shysters. Even when the employee signed a write up. Nothing in it for them.
Personally, I love to trick headhunters and competitors into hiring air thieves. The best way to fire someone, is to trick your competition into hiring them.
John McAfee 'It was like that time I hired that Bangkok prostitute; to do my taxes, while I fucked my accountant'
Yeah, that's pretty bad. I mean, disappearing for greener pastures after a short period of time can be considered a little mercenary too, but doing so without a word is just bad. In addition, some places like my employer have outside compensation clauses in the employment contract so ghosting for a new job isn't just bad but could open you up to lawsuits.
For the past 20 years, ANYBODY younger than 40 today has been dealing with a completely one sided job market, and it's been known for decades that that's just the way it goes. There's always somebody else.... be happy for a job, and my personal favorite "Dammit, I gotta get something to pay this $3500 rent bill, and still be able to eat. I guess I'll have suck it up and take this terribly underpaid faceless corporate drone position three cities over."
Now the labor pool is mostly made up of us. We're the ones that spent a fortune on so much unnecessary education that we suddenly find ourselves qualified for higher end positions that the ones we've been training for, and we know it. We also know that we're the ones that have spent our lives being lesser beings under some sneering boomer pulling twice our rate. We know we're the ones that have been getting the shaft from every direction since greed killed the economy AND the safety net.
You want a sysadmin, but your job requirements state you're looking for a contracting bachelors in computer science and 10+ years experience managing databases and sorting big data. You also expect 5-10 industry certs that are marginally related to the advertised role, at best, and offer no health insurance or bennies of any kind.
"Your" candidate may have accepted your sysadmin job, only to be offered the DBA position on the other side of town with full bennies and twice the salary, that has the same requirements. Sorry, maybe next time you aught to be a little more realistic with your job requirements, or pay appropriately.
We've been eating shit for so long now that we all just assume your going to screw us anyway. It's not the '00s anymore, suddenly there are actually jobs. Some of us have grown QUITE good at our own little lanes over a few decades of shit eating, and we're now discovering that you need us as much as we need you.
Time to come back to reality. In the words of my least favorite douche-manager ever, "This is just business, it's not personal. What are you so worried about?You've got a lot to offer, and I'm sure you will find something." (Fuck you Mike, I hope you choked on the bonus I earned you)
Sorry, not sorry.
You are being ripped off every second of every day, so that advertisers can help rip you off even more tomorrow.
You're forgetting what is probably the most common that started years ago:
0. To fulfill the legal requirement that no qualified American could be found thereby allowing them to legally hire the foreigner they already decided to hire even before the position was advertised:
Most job interviews these days are no so much to determine whether you're qualified for the position or not, but rather to determine a legally valid reason to disqualify you for the position so that they can legally hire the foreigner they already decided to hire long ago!
Today's job market sucks. :(
"Fish" (David B. Trout)
The article is already halfway down the front page. Lots of reactions, but few funny mods and they weren't justified. Quite disappointing, even by today's Slashdot standards.
So then I went looking for insight. Disappointed again.
My typically combined perversion would be to have considered the opposite side, where employers ghost the applicants. I think that's rather more common these years, especially for older "pre-owned" technical people.
The fresher the wage slave, the better. Most important that they have no idea of their actual monetary value to their employers.
Freedom = (Meaningful - Coerced) Choice != (Speech | Beer^2), and sad sock puppets' bad mods avail them naught.
No manners, no respect, no grooming. "Do your own thing". It's how kids are raised. Our office has had one or two people that failed to show up after being hired, because they got a better offer. A few years later, one came back to apply again. They were told NO!
core dumps, mainly.
CLI paste? paste.pr0.tips!
Apple ghosted me once. A family member worked there and submitted me for a job, so I came with references. HR called to set up a phone interview, but the day of I waited for about an hour, and they never called. After all that time I got online and realized they'd emailed me 3 minutes before the interview, postponing the call. I emailed back, asking when was good, but they didn't reply. I sent two more polite inquiries, after maybe 3 days and then 2 weeks, just trying to follow up, but never heard a thing. No idea what happened, or why I didn't get a bare minimum of "this position has been filled" or any other generic no thanks.
The Quirkz Handbook of Self-Improvement for People Who Are Already Pretty Okay
Yours is the second post mentioning advertising non existent jobs? Wtf?
Can you explain why they would do this?
There are lots of reasons:
All of which make no sense. Do you think hiring managers or HR people have nothing better to do than screen applications for jobs that don't exist? It's a quiet day in the office, let's post some job adverts then read lots of boring fucking resumes all day....
The lack of professionalism is from HR departments across the board, not employees.
HR departments seem to be trained to deal with poor people with no skills, and so they treat everyone like an indentured servent. When they finally have to deal with skilled workers who won't take their shit, they get all indignant.
Sounds like the Police...
"Perhaps there's an equal rights argument to be made for HR departments not being such irrepressible dicks."
That's inaccurate - HR doesn't act like dicks, they act like cunts. HR is over 90% women and tech job applicants are ~90% men. The reason HR treats applicants like that - entitled, flaky, narcissistic and entirely lacking self-insight - is because women treat men like that. They have evolved to do so because eggs are billions of times scarcer than sperm. Western culture was designed to balance that advantage by giving the more productive sex (men) compensating advantages in the workplace, but that went out of fashion in the 1960s when consuming rather than producing became the basis of the economy. Women control 80% of all spending while getting 40% of all wages for 20% of all workplace productivity, so they are the rulers of the consumer economy. Treating female applicants better than male applicants is the opposite of the answer.
"Is life so dear, or peace so sweet, as to be purchased at the price of chains and slavery?" - Patrick Henry
That's not ghosting! You turned down the offer and asked not to be contacted again. That's ending the relationship and ignoring attempts to restart it.
Ghosting is what you were accused of.
Your ad here. Ask me how!
Companies don't show employees respect anymore - a gazillion interviews, testing, privacy invasion of social accounts, etc. and if you're not the candidate they're going to choose, they ghost you in a heartbeat.
Why should sought after employees treat companies any better than they treat employees who are seeking to work for them?
The company is trying to fill at least two positions; project manager and engineer. The company may have said to the recruiter "we are looking for a project manager and engineer with salaries between $projectmanagersalary and $engineersalary", Agency picks that up literally and assumes that the engineer will get paid the same as project manager. Now there is confusion. The company wants you but can only offer you the salary if you become project manager.
Vintage computer adverts: http://www.vintageadbrowser.com/computers-and-software-ads
A lot of the comments above are expressing the notion that employers often don't respond the candidates so therefore this sort of behavior is fine.
I'd like to say I strongly disagree. In my experience especially when I was more junior and making applications for jobs in the middle of a recession, I've never had expectations that an employer will personally respond to me.
Normally when employers advertise for work, very often they get a lot of applications, as a candidate I've always expected this and never had any expectation that the employer would personally respond to let me know that I hadn't been selected. Occasionally they did and I always thought it exceedingly polite, but when they it never occurred to me to be slighted by the act. Furthermore, I've expected that when I'm applying for a position, if I haven't heard from the employer within a few days that I need to touch base with them and confirm that they actually have received my application, then if they have ask them if they're still interested in my candidacy and if not ask for feedback on why.
Very often I believe being proactive and periodically contacting the employer whilst they're in the middle of their recruitment process is actually quite influential and often be the deciding factor on the success of a job application.
Considering the reverse... being offered a position or job interview and then simply not responding or turning up is extremely unprofessional. There's a major difference between these two things that most in this discussion don't seem to understand. An employer advertising a position and requesting applications for a job is very different to you making a personal commitment or signing contract with an employer. These are two completely different things and come with totally different etiquette, obligations and responsibilities, I don't see how they're interchangeable in any way at all. Such behaviour is disrespectful to the other candidates for the job as well as towards all the people who would have been put out at the company when you didn't show.
Company I worked for for 8 years, after being bought, developed a habit of firing people who put in their notices. Guy I worked with put in a 2month notice, got fired 2 weeks later. Another put in a 2 week notice, fired 2 days later. I basically waited til my stock options vested, had a new job lined up the same day, let my immediate team know I what the deal was, and then put in my 'notice' after I was at the desk of my new job. They called me a bunch and just never answered or signed any papers. Fuck em.
So when did the pay negotiation become the bad thing to do? Previously it was that we got the shitty pay because we agreed it and we should ask for a better payrise if we think we deserve it. And that shitty pay was NOT wage slavery because we agreed to the pay. And now, all of a sudden, we are NOT supposed to negotiate a salary and that we are NOT allowed to reject a job for the shitty pay.
How long was I asleep?
Whose idea was it, this global legal code thing?
Confucius say, "Find worm in apple - bad. Find half a worm - worse."
There's plenty of incentive for recruiters, though.
Get the resume of someone who specialises in building interfaces between ERP systems and coffee machines using QT and perl and you get a list of companies that ... do all that kind of shit.
You've now got a set of sales leads you can use to try and place other people on your books who DATKOS.
Confucius say, "Find worm in apple - bad. Find half a worm - worse."
One time I had an interview, seemed to go OK but heard nothing for about two weeks. Perhaps I should have chased them, but I was too busy getting ready for the other gig I went for the day after who basically said "yes" at the end of the interview.
I suspect I was the mousy girl with glasses and the blonde gave him a slap in the face.
Ironically the first one seemed more interesting on the face of it, and if they'd been honest about me being the understudy I might have hung or at least tried to stall the other.
Confucius say, "Find worm in apple - bad. Find half a worm - worse."
I work in the tech industry in NY Metro area and consistently run into the same crowd over and over.
Canâ(TM)t tell you how many times my paths have crossed ways with the same people in different roles/capacities/positions.
A burned bridge here can absolutely sink you ....
We use a number of useless recruiters for my company. I hate doing it (almost as much as I hate paying them 20% of the candidate's salary), but it reduces the hiring pain, especially when the market is tight.
Aside from admin positions, the only times we have been treated this way are people who are pretty full of themselves... or just clueless little shits. The absolute worst though is having someone in the office for a day or week, and they just decide to stop doing it. (Two people out of ~50 employees this past year, maybe one or in the prior 15.). Well, maybe not quite as bad as the little shit that milked us for two months until he could find another job...
Surely if you made the effort to recruit properly rather than outsourcing it you might be able to get yourself some better quality people. Getting other people to do the job you don't want to do will usually result if a minimum effort at best.
Wanna buy a shirt?
https://www.redbubble.com/people/stealthfinger/shop?asc=u
You seem nice.
It's a valid point though.
Wanna buy a shirt?
https://www.redbubble.com/people/stealthfinger/shop?asc=u
Pfft. Recruiters are ghosting too. So what are they complaining about?
Quite possibly. For government compliance reasons, my company requires us to interview several applicants for every opening, even if we already have the "perfect" person identified.
Just another day in Paradise
Comment removed based on user account deletion
It's an extreme example, but the wider takeaway applies in more scenarios. If you mess about a company by doing this there is a non-zero chance that someone who knows you did this will have influence over a decision to hire you in the future. I've seen some incredibly rude behaviour from employers towards candidates, though I've been fortunate myself, but it simply doesn't make sense to save a couple of minutes and an awkward conversation when the potential risk is getting a great job in the future.
Guy was hired for a networking-related position, "worked" for the better part of the week before the termination/resignation on a Friday. The party line was he had started, been given some small-scale assignments which got botched badly, and then went radio silent for 2 days before resigning via email when they were trying to get ahold of him to fire him.
My interpretation was that the position was talked up as "networking" (switching, firewall, some small-scale routing) during job interviews. When the guy was hired, the supervisor was so busy doing billable work the guy had no actual work to do and was just slammed into small-client crises (which are the worst, since the small clients operate as semi-broken on a good day, and little substantial documentation exists).
I think the guy genuinely screwed up, but for reasons that are beyond his control and just decided that he wasn't going to take ownership of a 10 gallon bucket of shit beyond redemption. Some of these clients *are* badly broken but because the checks keep rolling in, nobody is willing to dump the clients as huge risks or call them to heel for their own good.
Generally speaking I think there are a lot of small businesses like this that operate at the margins of sanity and organization. If you've worked there long enough and/or are lucky when you're hired, it has the aura of organization. But if you walk in the door on the wrong week, it's like an asylum run by the lunatics. The owners/principals live "the vision", perhaps by necessity, but its often quite disconnected from reality. Trouble is, they sell the vision to new employees, and not the reality because no one would take the job for the reality.
We had a high level manager hired with a similar outcome. It went on for months with him, though. There was no ghosting, but he basically kept holding management to the job description until they canned him for being ineffective because he was basically doing "the job" and not what they wanted him too (which was all the shit work a principal didn't want to do, minus the management authority the principal didn't want to give up).
IMHO, the big picture lesson is to get a written description of day to day job responsibilities and activities, not just an HR job title/description, in the written offer letter. Any company that refuses to do this is either badly managed and looking for triage or outright lying about the position. If the work assignments deviate greatly from the work description, you've got a leg to stand on.
I am 62 years old. In every job interview I have participated in, where I did not get the job, I was ghosted. Every one. The only exception was an interview I had with Merrill Lynch. I did not get the job but they did send a very nice letter telling I did not get the job. I was impressed by their professionalism and courtesy. That was 30+ years ago and I have never forgotten it.
Every other organization I have dealt with, just cowardly silence.
Brad,
Quit bothering these people. They have better things to do. Yes, from the basement!
Angelina
WARNING: Smartphones have side effects--most of them undocumented.
Also data collection.
You'd be surprised the details some people leave on their resumes. Addresses, previous employers. All of this (especially the previous employers bit) is useful for future marketing campaigns and cold calling.
Calling someone a "hater" only means you can not rationally rebut their argument.
Techies are hired to tech. Not to socialize. HR is hired to socialize.
HR are primarily there to protect the company against it's employees. Never forget that when dealing with HR.
Calling someone a "hater" only means you can not rationally rebut their argument.
How beautiful. It is very biblical - they rip what they sow. Most of the companies have absolutely no right to complain about ghosting. They taught everybody that when you are not needed it is not worth an effort to even tell 'go away' to you. Apparently, this lecture was very efficient and now everybody uses this method. The only companies that refused me and still treated like a human being are some Japanese companies. When they said that by the date they will inform about the result of the hiring process, they always did. I was never left not knowing, what is the status. As for Europe, I never got any feedback, even if they promised to give one. Some British agencies went to the ridiculous level. I understand, that if you send somewhere your offer, you are subhuman enough not to deserve answer. I can even understand, that when they talk "We will contact you later", it actually means "f-off". However, if the recruiter tells you "I will call you in two hours", so you rearrange your agenda to make it possible talk to them in a quiet environment, and then when the time comes the only thing you get is silence, no phone, no mail, nothing - well, this is ridiculous. And then the same recruiter calls to you three weeks later saying about another offer... I still talk/write to them politely, because you never know, the Chinese proverb says "never spit into the well, you might drink water from it later", but frankly - now I do not believe a single word they say, and consequently, I treat them the same level as the guys selling the new best models of vacuum cleaners. How can I treat them more seriously. I write replies to them, sometime the next day, sometimes after 2-3 weeks, that I am sorry, but their offer was not really interesting. I still keep my word. I was discussing an offer. They refused me, told me they had better candidate - I was getting through insider reference, this is the only way to get any feedback. I said OK, no hard feelings, and then I accepted another contract. After a week they told me they actually want me, and "the better candidate" was apparently not as good - o perhaps, ghosted them.. I said "No, two hours ago I signed another contract". You know, the potential contract was closer to my dream job, so I had really hard time - but I decided I must keep my word. Actually, almost all people around told me I did wrong, and I should follow the dream and not the actual contract. So maybe I was wrong. But still this market tendency is not enough;-). Recently I wrote to a quite big software company, that is entering Japanese market. I wrote to them them, asking if they need a software engineer with 15 years of experience, and working knowledge of Japanese, including reading and some experience in the trenches on the local Japanese market - well, never heard of them, even no "no, thank you" note. So, I guess it is still surplus of people with my skills, but anyway - I have a job, so I really did not need them, just thought it could be fun to work between a European company and its Japanese clients. How should I respond in the unlikely event they ever call me?
Job seekers are spending many, many hours sending out resumes, writing custom cover letters and doing multiple rounds of interviews for no money. One must wonder how many times they failed to received a response back. Just sounds like turn-about is fair play.
Competition Good, Monopoly Bad.
Oh I certainly have had some coworkers that got glowing recommendations just to get them out the door ASAP!
It's funny how expressions of contempt and superiority so often go hand in hand with ignorance of a subject.
"At Slashdot, we also avoid curly quotes -- and when we miss, you see them as weird characters on the site"
https://m.slashdot.org/story/3...
Frankly, if it's not ASCII, it's not really a standard written character in the modern world.
Try using curly quotes the next time you have to create a password.
Actually, I've been involved in hiring at every company I've worked at for the last decade.
You're incredibly brave.
HR would have my head if they thought I made a statement about an ex-employee to someone from another organization. Their standard reply to someone checking up on an ex-employee yes they worked her from XXXX to XXXX. Fulls stop. Policy is that no information on employee performance will be released for any reason.
This is the result of crappy employees suing previous employers because they told the truth about their performance and caused them to lose a future job.
Remember the job of HR is to protect the company from the employees.
Whatever happened to the good old Obama days?
Is also my right to not give a crap. We had a few people do this to us when we opened a new location. That was a wake up call for HR to start offering somewhat competitive salaries as we found out we were underpaying by 20-30% in the new locations.
I shrug at this honestly, as hostile as the US is towards the working class, I think this is just the natural end game. When you don't give a crap about your workforce, why do you think they'd care about their employers?
Employers have been doing it to potential employees for decades. Now the boot's on the other foot.
It is also funny how accusations of ignorance sometimes omit knowledge. I wonder why they would do that?
Also, it is funny how accusations of ignorance spring up even no details have been discussed. Must have got your knowledge about my knowledge from the crystal ball, or was it a talking mirror?
You're an idiot.
You don't even get a say.
What happens is, the person's lawyer sends you a letter, your type up your stupid shit about how you can do whatever you want, and then they file the lawsuit. Then your insurance company's lawyers inform you that you're not allowed to say anything, and they settle the case, and then they raise your insurance rates.
You can whine and cry all you like and feel important and Virtuous because you called people shysters, but it doesn't imply that you did any research into the realities of the situation. If you say something that causes somebody to be denied work, the burden of proof falls on you because you're not allowed to harm people financially. Them being denied work is harm. I'd say "ask your lawyer" first, but you're just a worker so you have no need to ever actually find out the truth about this. ;)
I've done this to buy time when the job the I REALLY want won't confirm I have it or not for a few more days..... But I already have one or more offers I don't want to pass up if the preferred one doesn't come through.
Only boring people are ever bored.
Done it :-)
They _signed_ the writeup and action plan. Their lawyer is on contingency, he will bail as soon as he sees that he's got a loser on his hands.
In the USA you have to treat people that can afford to pay lawyers differently. Those that get contingency shysters, can't do the 'beat you up with lawyers' thing.
Also not England. Truth remains a defense.
Now go read the rest of my post, you're just a moron BTW.
John McAfee 'It was like that time I hired that Bangkok prostitute; to do my taxes, while I fucked my accountant'
There's plenty of incentive for recruiters, though.
Get the resume of someone who specialises in building interfaces between ERP systems and coffee machines using QT and perl and you get a list of companies that ... do all that kind of shit.
You've now got a set of sales leads you can use to try and place other people on your books who DATKOS.
That sounds like a hard way to get a simple job done. I know a few recruiters and it's a lot simpler than that. When you get a role, you advertise for that role, then you screen the hundreds of retards that apply for a 3 shortlisted candidates to submit to the employer. That's it.
There's no convoluted James-Bond-villain type scheme in place to oppress job seekers. Recruitment is just sales. The more tin you move, the more commission you get.
I've never 'ghosted' an employer, but I have 'ghosted' plenty of unsolicited recruiters and potential employers - often for sending obviously mass dispatched offers.
If someone is looking to hire me, they can contact me directly - properly addressing me by name, and offering employment actually relevant to my career.
The most recent recruiters I've ignored were trying to get me to move to China to teach English. Considering I'm a software engineer, there was no particular appeal to such a job beyond possibly being near enough to Shenzhen to indulge my interest in electronics.
And if they can cold-call prospects they can be in there before all the others, Einstein. It's also why they ask for references in advance. It's probably more prevalent in contracting because there's more churn.
I know for a fact they do it because it's happened to me. Backfired on one occasion because the guy thought it was pretty shady and didn't like being messed around so he blacklisted them.
Confucius say, "Find worm in apple - bad. Find half a worm - worse."
Especially when recruiters seem to think you will take any job they throw at you, even more so when you tell them your preferences for what type of company you want to work for and the general location in the city. Then they keep phoning you to go for interviews with the EXACT type of company you were not interested in, on the WRONG side of the city, then when you turn them down they act like they are a friend doing you a favor and you just kicked them in the teeth. I am NOT your friend, I am someone who is going to land you a very nice commission when I get placed. You are working for me, I am not jumping through hoops for you. I know entry level candidates etc. don't have much of a choice, but I do. Some of them couldn't give a crap about what you want, they are only interested in the commission. We were moving form one city to another, and my wife insisted I at least try get a job while still in the other city (I was thinking yay! holiday, first in 10 years, but alas it was not to happen). After the first couple of recruiters I simply stopped answering calls from recruiters who kept trying to place me incorrectly, winnowed it down to one and everything went through her. There is a very big shortage of skilled people in IT, worldwide, I might be getting close to the age discrimination barrier, but while I can be picky I am damn well going to be picky.
There are three kinds of falsehood: the first is a 'fib,' the second is a downright lie, and the third is statistics.
No it's not. Doing the entire recruitment process yourself would require a LOT of effort from your own staff, probably starting with HR. Effort from your OWN staff costs you money. Time = Money, plus phone calls etc. Contract that out to a recruitment firm that only gets commission for a successful placement greatly reduces that cost. The problem there is that the recruiters tend to be non technical, have no real clue about what you are asking for in a candidate and if they are desperate tend to throw any odd thing at you with enough acronyms on their C.V. and hope that it sticks.
We used to interview and then do a technical test and then a final interview with upper cheese.
A lot of the candidates were passing the interview and failing horribly on the test (it was not a hard test, when people kept failing it they wanted to check and made us all redo the test, we all passed, even the juniors).
The test we had to pay for, so it was initially considered cheaper this way around, but after a large amount of people failing the test (after taking up an hour of at least three senior staff for the interview) it was decided it was WAY cheaper to test first, and then do the interview. Perhaps we sucked at interviewing, I don't know, it was not always me on the panel so...
We cut a LOT of the people out during CV reviews, all senior developers had to give feedback.
Job hopping, don't do it, it looks REALLY bad on your CV. It takes time to train new people, and no one wants to spend time (money) training you if you look like it's a waste of time. One or two short stints is fine, but constant job hopping is going to shoot you in the foot.
There are three kinds of falsehood: the first is a 'fib,' the second is a downright lie, and the third is statistics.
Well good luck with that, perhaps I am in the minority as a tech worker, but I don't like splashing my personal life on the interwebs so everyone can see when I took a shit. I do use social media sites, but for private things, not public things. You want to know where I worked? It's on my C.V. along with my references. If you still feel the need to dig through my personal stuff? Well then I feel a strong need not to work for your company. And yes, where I am currently working IS personal information. Would you like to tell everyone where you live? Splash your home address out on facebook et al? No, didn't think so. I spend a third of my life at work - normally more, you now know where I LIVE for 1/3 of my day. By updating linkedin I have just given away 1/3 of my location on any given workday to EVERYONE on the planet. Why would I want to do that?
There are three kinds of falsehood: the first is a 'fib,' the second is a downright lie, and the third is statistics.
Which is why they are automating it, you won't need a "butt in the seat" much longer.
My sister works for a large retailer here (IT division) and they are busy piloting automating the "picking", the movement of cargo from storage to the truck in the distribution centers. Each year the drivers of the current forklifts strike for wage increases during the busiest time of the year, and the retailer has to get in temp staff and there is violence etc. and they no longer want to be held hostage by the human element. It's costing them millions to make the changes, but in 5 years it will save them billions.
If you are a person stuck in a dead end rut of a job, FEAR NOT - for you soon will be unemployed and sleeping under a bridge, out of that nasty emotional rut and into a real one.
There are three kinds of falsehood: the first is a 'fib,' the second is a downright lie, and the third is statistics.
Agreed, HR is not your friend, they may say they are, but they are lying.
Managers close ranks when confronted, and HR are bosom buddies. I mean, it's a simple thing really. Who decides the bonus of HR staff? Management. If you think they are looking after your own best interests you are an idiot.
There are three kinds of falsehood: the first is a 'fib,' the second is a downright lie, and the third is statistics.
And if they can cold-call prospects they can be in there before all the others, Einstein.
So let's see, spend time on roles I actually have available now and make money now, or spend time/effort on imaginary jobs that may or may not ever eventuate and when they do, all the candidates I was grooming are no longer available because that was last month and have no money. Only Einstein could ever figure this conundrum out...
Well, St. Louis is a bit bigger than South Fuck, Minnesota, but maybe not as big a place as where you live. (Sorry.) But there are some big companies here.
Regardless, it has been said more than once that the IT community in St. Louis is like a small town. Word does get around. Just not by passing lists back and forth between HR departments, or by talking with Floyd the barber as he sits and whittles at the town square.
A few people who used to work at Aerospace Firm might now work together at Pharmacy Benefit Manger Firm or Electronic Medical Claim Company One, or a bunch of people who used to work at Electronic Medical Claim Company Two now work for Running Shoe Firm. People talk.
If Mr. B.O.F. Hell is being considered for a position at Agribusiness Giant, his former co-workers from his Megabrewery days might advise against it. But they might be eager to work again with A.J. Bitwrangler, who they saw do wonderful things at Gobblin' Bancorporation before it was bought by Gobblingest Bank. And if they don't happen to know Mr. Hell or Ms. Wrangler, they may talk to their former co-workers, now at Car Rental Company, who do.
(All employer names changed. I have worked at some of them, and know at least one person who has worked at each of them.)
It wouldn't surprise me in the slightest to learn that the same sort of thing happens in a lot of cities, big and small, where bits are wrangled, sliced, diced, reconstituted, concentrated, matched, filtered, shipped, and trans-shipped. Even in Smug Valley and The Big Smug, or wherever CoolDiscoRex lives.
There's no time like the present. Well, the past used to be.
It still makes no sense to say that something that didn't happen would have been worse. That doesn't make what did happen good.