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PayPal Told Customer Her Death Breached Its Rules (bbc.com)
dryriver shares a report from the BBC: PayPal wrote to a woman who had died of cancer saying her death had breached its rules and that it might take legal action as a consequence. The firm has since acknowledged that the letter was "insensitive," apologized to her widower, and begun an inquiry into how it came to be sent.
Lindsay Durdle died on May 31 aged 37. She had been first diagnosed with breast cancer about a year-and-a-half earlier. The disease had later spread to her lungs and brain. PayPal was informed of Mrs Durdle's death three weeks ago by her husband Howard Durdle. He provided the online payments service with copies of her death certificate, her will and his ID, as requested. He has now received a letter addressed in her name, sent to his home in Bucklebury, West Berkshire. It was headlined: "Important: You should read this notice carefully." It said that Mrs Durdle owed the company about 3,200 pounds (~$4,200) and went on to say: "You are in breach of condition 15.4(c) of your agreement with PayPal Credit as we have received notice that you are deceased... this breach is not capable of remedy." According to a PayPal staff member, there were three possible explanations for how the letter was sent: a bug, a bad letter template, or human error. PayPal is continuing to work with Mr Durdle and has written off the debt in the meantime.
Lindsay Durdle died on May 31 aged 37. She had been first diagnosed with breast cancer about a year-and-a-half earlier. The disease had later spread to her lungs and brain. PayPal was informed of Mrs Durdle's death three weeks ago by her husband Howard Durdle. He provided the online payments service with copies of her death certificate, her will and his ID, as requested. He has now received a letter addressed in her name, sent to his home in Bucklebury, West Berkshire. It was headlined: "Important: You should read this notice carefully." It said that Mrs Durdle owed the company about 3,200 pounds (~$4,200) and went on to say: "You are in breach of condition 15.4(c) of your agreement with PayPal Credit as we have received notice that you are deceased... this breach is not capable of remedy." According to a PayPal staff member, there were three possible explanations for how the letter was sent: a bug, a bad letter template, or human error. PayPal is continuing to work with Mr Durdle and has written off the debt in the meantime.
Bugs and bad letter templates all have the same cause: human error.
Computers don't make mistakes.
One of our competitors trademarked the term "hypothesis". From now on, we will call them "boneheaded ideas".
Did she go on a spending spree before her death? I don't think the husband knew about it.
I don't believe that is entirely true. You can decline an inheritance if the estate in Germany is indebted.
No, there's a much more plausible fourth explanation: Paypal is run by dicks.
You must do so in a timely manner, in writing, notarized by a lawyer. It's assumed by default that you accept it if you don't do this.
Yes, but, in this case it's inheriting _debt_ by default unless you explicitly opt out.
Yup. Nothing to see here. They're asking for their money back, getting a claim in on the estate. Big whoop.
He is likely the executor of her estate unless she set of something specific in her will. These letters are usually scare tactics to get someone to pay the debt even though they may no legal obligation. If this Paypal is solely in her name, they may not be able to collect. All shared assets would transfer to the husband (like bank accounts). If there is any "residue" in the estate, Paypal will get paid.
Paypal Credit has been around for years. Used to be called Blll Me Later. Welcome to 2008.
Can he still be held responsible for paying his deceased wife's debts? One of my girlfriends ran up all her mom's credit cards as she was dying of breast cancer, because she knew the debt would go away when she died.
I've abandoned my search for truth; now I'm just looking for some useful delusions.
Sending them a copy of the death certificate was nice to do. However, after that let them chase their tails trying to collect a debt from a dead person and waste their time an money in the process...
What are they going to do? Ruin a dead persons credit? Knock yourself out PayPal. Take them to court? It will be fun to see what the process server does with that....
"File to fit, pound to insert, paint to match" - Aircraft Maintenance 101
I'm wondering how it could be that dying could be interpreted as breach of contract.... does anyone here know exactly what it said?
File under 'M' for 'Manic ranting'
No, you can certainly offer an apology. It's up to the offended party to accept it or not.
That you promise not to die?
Dying as being a breach of contract would be a TOTAL Terry Gilliam plot!
"a bug, a bad letter template, or human error. "
Or you just have crap policies where you fail to delineate other avenues of outcomes that occur but you do not consider legitimate. This leads to absurd conclusions any normal review or check would recognize as unacceptable.
PayPal is set up this way -deliberately-. They want you to give up. They don't want to be contacted. THey make many being pricks.
Get unsolicited email from PayPal, to an address you own and has never had anything to do with them? You have no easy recourse to get it removed. There is no unsubscribe since PayPal assumes they ahve the right address. They admit it's from an unmonitored email address you cannot rely to. They assume they are in the right or that you have an account or agreement with them. You cannot respond in kind in like medium (email) to get it resolved.
And if you call them, look out. They assume you are the phisher. Yeah, I'm spending 25mintues on hold telling you to contact the account holder they are using my email address, and in them eantime either temproarily blacklist the outgoing emails until thye at least verify the account. Yeah, that's a real good phish move, morons. Interesting how they won't email you to verify right then and there like a poor man's authentication sicn ethey maybe believe it's a MITM, but they'll authenticate with a plain email with an open link to verify an email account.
I'm almost tempted to try to see if I verify my address with the account that I didn't open to see if I can get a password reset. Then go in and turn off the email settings, assuming you can do that. Of course, if I did that, I'd probably be in trouble for hacking, while PP keeps sending me emails to sign up for their new credit card, or I've been preapproved for xyz.
PayPal. Oe wonly pretned to be a bank. WHat do you expect, real service?
"You are in breach of condition 15.4(c) of your agreement with PayPal Credit as we have received notice that you are deceased... this breach is not capable of remedy."
You can't win.
You can't break even.
You can't even quit the game.
General Relativity: Space-time tells matter where to go; Matter tells space-time what shape to be.
the wording might be insensitive but notifying her husband about it isn't that unusual, is it?
Nope, this is just an attempt to collect a debt by PayPal. Poorly worded and untimely given his wife's death was already legally established by the copy of the death certificate he provided, but just SOP for debt collection. Common, even when the person in debt is dead. I got lots of demands for payment when my mother died. I wasn't liable for any of the debt, yet the letters came and got shreded.
I do think that PayPal was stupid to try this, mainly because of the risk of a bad PR outcome. Receipt of a death certificate should suspend the account and all debt collection activities for any unsecured debt associated with the deceased.
"File to fit, pound to insert, paint to match" - Aircraft Maintenance 101
I would like to know what this is too. Looking up the terms and conditions, there is a 15.4, but no subclause (c): :P
15.4 In the event you do not agree to the terms of a release amount, you may close your account unless otherwise prohibited under this Agreement. However, if your account is closed for any reason, we have the right to hold the amount retained in your PayPal account for up to 180 days.
Can anyone else find more?
catchpa: mystery
A computer made a mistake based on bad human input. Yawn...sorry. I thought I heard you wrong. Really, it's an amazing story. Thanks for sharing. My day is complete now.
sad thing about this is - as bad as the nazis were, they had a plan and kept to it - sometimes too well. trump on the other hand seems to do one random thing after the other...
The letter was intended for Mr Durtle, not Mr Durdle.
That was literally the opening plot of Brazil. Guy gets murdered during a swat-style raid looking for a guy whose name was one typo different, and as a result his family has to pay for his termination costs, despite it being the government's fault.
That movie is an excellent watch by the way, although it is hard to tell what part of it is taking part in 'reality' and what part of it is in his mind, whether crazed, or after he is broken.
Paypal doesn't seem to care about (or weirdly, suffer from) bad publicity.
"First they came for the slanderers and i said nothing."
In the US if you're forgiven a debt that is like income. So if PayPal says you owe $15k but doesn't make you pay, you owe taxes on that.
Can't escape them, even in death.
No, dying wasn't the issue.
It's bloody clear that her account had an unpaid debt that's the issue.
Your Estate is supposed to pay your farking debts after you die.
Is that really so difficult to understand?
Why the fark should her estate get a pass?
The letter did not say what 15.4(c) was. If it had, I would not have asked the question.
File under 'M' for 'Manic ranting'
If a person is dead, whether or not there is any documentation to prove it is irrelevant, it is categorically *NOT* fraud to state that they are dead... it is only fraud to state they are dead if they are not.
File under 'M' for 'Manic ranting'
These days you could get seriously rich if that sort of thing were actually worth any money. You could have retired in style before Grandmaster Troll was even elected.
A Pirate and a Puritan look the same on a balance sheet.
The summary made no sense. I googled it, found the letter and a legit news site. The summary cuts and pastes and mutilates the original letter to pretend it's saying something else. It doesn't say
... hides a heck of a lot and the second half has nothing to do with the first.
"You are in breach of condition 15.4(c) of your agreement with PayPal Credit as we have received notice that you are deceased... this breach is not capable of remedy."
That
No shit. Brilliant.
The person was only dead, but that's just a status for their estate. The only technicality here is that after the status of death has been reached, the template should have been amended to address the 'Estate of Lindsay Durdle' instead of Lindsay Durdle. They do have the right to collect the money. Probate courts handle this sort of sorting.
In Japan mortgage loans comes with a life (actually death) insurance, so if I die before my loan is paid back, my wife gets the house, without paying a penny back. And no, she has no plans of killing me. The house isn't that great.
There are two rules for success:
1. Never tell everything you know.
So Hitler is like Santa, because he's got a list and he's checking it twice. And Trump isn't literally Hitler. See? I always knew Slashdot is the place for stuff that matters!
There are two rules for success:
1. Never tell everything you know.
Even worse are the carpetbaggers who thrive on misery. When a loved one dies, be as prepared as you can for this sort of thing -- letters commiserating with you at this terrible occasion, and offering to buy your house immediately for cash. Half of these letters will be addressed to the deceased.
In general (at least around here), the carpetbaggers are not breaking any laws, and the most you can do is write to them or call them, and ask "Does your mother know what you do for a living?" Not that that does any good with those illegitimate sons of crack whores, but it might temporarily make you feel better.
The big companies are sometimes somewhat trainable, and I comment Mr. Durdle for attempting to train Paypal. I myself have attempted to train a few companies, such as Netflix. After trying multiple times to get their customer service people to do the right thing, I finally sent an email to their general counsel:
From: Netflix <info@mailer.netflix.com>
To: xxxx@zzzz.com
Subject: xxxx, come back today to more TV shows & movies.
More TV Shows & Movies to Love
A lot has changed since you left. Come back to Netflix and enjoy newly added TV shows & movies. There's something for everyone to enjoy and we're always adding more, including Netflix original series and movies.
(ad copy, buttons, etc.)
From: yyyy <yyyy@zzzz.com>
To: David Hyman <dhyman@netflix.com>
Subject: Re: Fwd: xxxx, come back today to more TV shows & movies.
Dear Mr. Hyman:
It would be great if xxxx would come back. She could watch all the netflix she wanted and I wouldn't mind.
But she's not coming back.
(link to obituary)
I canceled her account two months ago; somehow I managed to explain the situation to one of your people. But that's not good enough; now, in order to get your system to stop sending her email, I either need to provide information I don't have (a credit card number from a bank account which I closed), or I need to get a code so I can log into her netflix account.
This is apparently done in the name of PCI compliance. Like SOX, or ISO-9000, those things done in the name of PCI compliance often don't actually help and may actually harm. E.g. I want to give her privacy, and absolutely do not want to log into her netflix account.
I have fulfilled my responsibilities here; it is up to your company to insure that you stop sending advertising to my dead wife.
It would also be great if you could empower your people enough so that issues like this could be taken care of with a single phone call, but that no longer seems to be the American way.
Thank you for your prompt attention to this matter.
Best regards,
yyyy
You are over simplifying. The law does not apply to all cancelled debts. It _mostly_ applies to debt that is a result of borrowing. i.e. you borrow $10,000 from a bank.. You never pay it back and eventually the bank writes it off (cancels it). You have effectively been paid $10,000. Thus it's income (sort of).
Now, you rack up $10,000 in long distance phone charges and AT&T cancels the debt. You do not owe the IRS a dime. You were never given money. Although, you certainly don't get to write off the $10K bill from AT&T since you never paid it, and this may push you up to a higher tax bracket...
That is, this law mostly applies to debt that involves the exchange of monies, from what I can tell. As with all things IRS, it's not crystal clear and you have to be a lawyer / CPA to be damn sure... But, your statement is demonstratively false, according to the IRS's own convoluted documentation.
If you are serious, you are a fucking retard. I don't care how much you dislike Trump, to equate him with a philosophy that killed tens of millions of people is insulting to both groups.
Trump may be a giant asshole, but he's not rounding up Jews and gassing them.
I don't know which is worse.. The fact you imply Trump is as evil as Nazis or the fact that you make Nazis out to be less evil than they really were, by reducing them to the level of Trump.
The only thing I see that being from is a credit card debt through PayPal, otherwise there's no fucking way in hell a PayPal account like that should be in a negative that deeply.
Still waiting on Serviscope_minor to wake up to fucking reality and realize that Jessica Price isn't going to fuck him.
You can always refuse an inheritance, the trick is , you have to refuse it *wholesale*. Meaning you can't pick and chose. Furthermore if the debt was cosigned by *both* spouse then in some cases the other signatory still continue to hold the debt.
C. Sagan : A demon haunted world:
http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/0345409469/
visit randi.org
What matter to the law is that there is an "Inheritance". You get this inheritance by default. It is up to YOU to check whether this comes up as a positive inheritance or negative. And you can hardly do that without checking yourself carefully. Imagine the legal nightmare if the inheritance was "optional" if negative after a while, but automatic if positive ? That would make it difficult to everybody and generate a lot of work for the judge to check whether an opt out or opt in was justified. No, a standard either "opt in always" or "optional always" is justified. In this case, it is better to have always inheritance and let the person decide to reject it. The other way around people could lose inheritance they would otherwise want.
C. Sagan : A demon haunted world:
http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/0345409469/
visit randi.org
I think the biggest difference is that calling the Nazis Nazis was not hyperbole.
Criticism of things such as the way refugees are being handled is legitimate. In fact it's very important. But I think it's better to criticise it on the basis of fundamental wrongness and not assume it's only wrong because of Hitler parallels.
I wouldn't be surprised if they quietly deleted it, because it was stupid and they didn't want people looking it up when they read this news.
By default you inherit all debt, or only up the value of assets?
Where I live when someone leaves you with a debt you have three options. Let's assume the spouse left with a house worth 1 000 000 and 2 000 000 in debt:
1. Take everything
2. Take all assets and debt up to the value of assets (the house and 1 000 000 of debt) - default option
3. Take nothing, everything goes to YOUR next of kin (as if you were dead as well), who has to make the same decision
Which one is default in Germany?
What is best in life? Hot water, good dentishtry and shoft lavatory paper.
It seems to be from the PayPal Credit Agreement. Maybe she had a PayPal credit card or something, probably ran up the debts paying for costs associated with her treatment for cancer. Anyway, it says:
"We may close the Credit Account and demand repayment of the full amount you owe us if you die or become of unsound mind"
const int one = 65536; (Silvermoon, Texture.cs)
SJW, n: "Someone I don't like, and by the way I'm a fuckwit" - AC
The default in Germany is 1. You assume all debt and assets, even if there's a thousand dollars worth of assets and twenty thousands of dollars worth of debt. In order to not inherit the debt in such a situation, you must disown your inheritance as I described above.
Notaries in Germany are apparently lawyers. https://guides.library.harvard...
First of all, Nazis did more than round up Jews and gas them, so there are plenty of ways to be like Nazis without actually murdering Jews.
Second, is your objection that he hasn't gotten around to persecuting Jews, or that he hasn't implemented mass murder yet? Because Hitler didn't campaign on a platform of death camps. His platform was about getting rid of illegal immigrants and making Germany great again. There were even Jewish organizations that supported Hitler because they also didn't want to be infested with illegal immigrants -- at least until such organizations became illegal.
Hitler took away Jews' citizenships so he could deport them without trial. Trump just set up a denaturalization task force to take away citizenships and wants to deport people without trial.
The problem with mass deportation is that it proved impossible, so eventually mass murder was chosen as the final solution. At this stage in Nazi history, though, Hitler was still a Zionist.
Even if Trump does not currently display the level of evil that Hitler did in 1944, you can clearly see from his disdain for the likes of Trudeau and Merkel and his admiration of dictators like Putin and Kim that he really wishes to be that evil.
The slogan "Make America Great Again" was even the name of a pro-Nazi organization that wanted America to not go to war with Germany!
After the rally in Charlottesville, where one side had people marching with Nazi flags and the other side had somebody murdered, Trump did nothing to denounce those marching with Nazi flags. Instead he said there were "good people on both sides". Meanwhile Mexicans are rapists and Muslims are terrorists.
Anyway, the reason for the comparison is that the book of Trump seems to be a copy of the book of Hitler. The settings are different, the characters have different names, and some details are changed (e.g. Hitler fought for his country in the war; Trump had "bone spurs") -- but by this chapter so far, the plot is basically the same. And since we know how the other book ends, we'd like the book we're reading now to diverge.
dom
That's interesting, I guess it's fairly cheap insurance since the payout value declines as the mortgage balance declines. Great idea. What percentage does it typically add to the mortgage payment? Is it personalized based on the applicant's age/health or is it standardized?
" this breach is not capable of remedy."
Seems accurate, unless you have the Doctor and his TARDIS ready to bring a cure back from the distant future, to her past. >_>
The Christian Right is Neither (Christian nor right). See: Matthew 23, Matthew 25, Ezekiel 16:48-50
Hitler wasn't elected chancellor because he had killed millions of people. The comparisons aren't with the Hitler of 1944, they're with the Hitler of 1933.
No, Trump isn't Hitler, but they are both authoritarian fascists.
I've abandoned my search for truth; now I'm just looking for some useful delusions.
Wait... did you just say that comparing Trump to Nazis is insulting to Nazis???
I've abandoned my search for truth; now I'm just looking for some useful delusions.
"Trump isn't wholesale slaughtering people based on race, religion or sexual orientation." ...yet.
I've abandoned my search for truth; now I'm just looking for some useful delusions.
Ah, but you see, their socialism is different. It's not the kind that leads to death. How do we know this? Why, it's so simple, they tell us it's a different kind. That's good enough for me.
:)
To you maybe, but no.. the vast amount of people who refer to Trump as Hilter Jr, are not making that distinction. How do I know this? Simple, most Americans are... stupid is not the right term.. I'd say they are absolutely ignorant of History (and certainly Geography). They are ignorant and they are not even embarrassed by that ignorance. Some practically revel it in.. as if knowledge is something only nerds acquire.
When your average leftie calls Trump a Nazi, they are referring to Hitler of 1940. I've heard enough with my own ears to come to this conclusion. In fact, the only reason they call Trump a Nazi is that National Socialism is still something that is taught in schools (as bad of course) and still has movies made about it (Inglorious Basterds). It's still very much part of the daily culture via the media. i.e. it's still shoved in their faces. That's the only reason they even remember the Nazis. Americans (my fellow countrymen) love to ignore history.
If as much time was devoted to Hitler as is devoted to Stalin, most Americans wouldn't have a clue who he was. That's why Hitler is still considered more "evil". He killed... what? 6 million? Stalin is somewhere between 20-50 million, yet the average Joe hasn't the slightest idea who the guy was. They may have heard his name, but most of him has been lost to history (to the average person).
Wow. What an idea!
Before you die, give all of your assets away, take out a large loan and give the money to your survivors, and run up massive debt.
That'll stick it to them! Whatcha gonna do? Kill me?!
Self-importance and self-indulgence is the root of ALL evil.
And by the way.. I get tired of having to say this, but National Socialism is not the extreme right. It doesn't matter how many times you lefties say it is, it's NOT. It's just as left leaning as Communism. That's not personal opinion, it's what the Nazi's themselves said. They declared many times that they were on the left, that they were socialist, that they were for the "workers". Private business ownership in Germany was a farce. The government dictated EVERYTHING regarding production, wages, hours, etc. It was a centrally planned economy. It was carried out exactly like Communism. One of the only differences was that the Nazis didn't seem to meddle with the VERY small businesses.. The mom n' pop operations.. They knew they needed that small level of capitalism.. But if you had 20+ employees, you can bet you got your directions from Berlin.. at least if what you did could even be remotely called "important" or of national importance.. And that was not a very high bar..
I mean, for fuck's sake.. National SOCIALISM...
Trump may be a giant asshole, but he's not rounding up Jews and gassing them.
And Hitler didn't start off this way either. He might not be rounding up Jews (yet), but he sure is a lot of other people. He might not be gassing them, but Hitler didn't start this way. He already has shown a total disregard for the law and only applies it properly when the courts call him out on it. Then maybe we get an oops. He's already acting the same way. Don't think it's not only a matter of time before he tries something stupid to distract from his business dealings....
As far as the philosophy, he's already sided with white supremacist, neo nazi's and all the other white makes right hate crowd. They already have a long list of evils and would love to drop some Zyklon B on their list of degenerates.
Trump is an evil man. To not notice the parallels in actions and rhetoric is turning a blind eye.
Buy this man a dictionary.
Yeah. It was an attempt at dark humor. But.... I did kinda hope you would see my point.. The Nazis were Nazis.. Okay? To call this puffy orange Cheeto a Nazi.. man, it's just wrong. This shit goes down every fucking election..
Bush Jr was a Nazi.. He's gonna refuse to leave office.
Obama is a communist.. He's gonna refuse to leave office...
Both parties are full of assholes. Obama may have been a closet socialist, but he wasn't a communist.. And, lo and behold, he didn't refuse to leave office. Trump may be an asshole, but he's not a fucking nazi and he's not gonna set himself up as dictator.. He'll have his second term and he'll leave office.
He will never spend a single day in prison. Regardless of if he deserves it or not.. Assuming he's guilty, he WILL be pardoned.. It's Republicans all the way down the line.. For good or ill, we don't imprison our Presidents..
That's stupid. He's putting children in jails. That hasn't been done since Germany. It's only a matter of time before ICE is acting as his brown shirts and exterminating Mexicans. It's not an exaggeration. There is a genuine danger he could be the next Hitler. When a man says he can murder someone in plain daylight and be loved to it, believe him.
Do you even know what the word fascist means?
Keep it up, buttercup. Your side is going to guarantee he wins again...