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Microsoft Could Move Some Jobs Abroad Because of US Immigration Policies, Top Exec Says (cnbc.com)
Microsoft does not want to move jobs out of the United States but certain decisions out of Washington could potentially force its hands, the company's President and Chief Legal Officer Brad Smith warned. From a report: The Trump Administration's tough stance on immigration has attracted a lot of criticism from big technology firms, which rely heavily on skilled foreign workers from around the world. Smith previously spoke out against efforts to stop the Deferred Action for Childhood Arrivals (DACA) program -- an Obama-era policy that provides legal protection for young immigrants brought to the U.S. illegally as children. Microsoft has advocated the protection of DACA and more broadly supported immigration as a way to make sure U.S. companies are hiring talented people. "We do worry about a couple of the very specific immigration questions that people appear to be debating in Washington," Smith told CNBC's Akiko Fujita in an interview on Wednesday.
[...] "We don't want to move jobs out of the United States and we hope that we don't see decision making in Washington that would force us to do that," he said, adding that Microsoft has been openly speaking to people in Congress, at the White House and even the Canadian government to safeguard the interest of its employees. Microsoft has a development center in Vancouver, which Smith described as a "bit of a safety valve." "We're not going to cut people loose. We're going to stand behind them," he added.
[...] "We don't want to move jobs out of the United States and we hope that we don't see decision making in Washington that would force us to do that," he said, adding that Microsoft has been openly speaking to people in Congress, at the White House and even the Canadian government to safeguard the interest of its employees. Microsoft has a development center in Vancouver, which Smith described as a "bit of a safety valve." "We're not going to cut people loose. We're going to stand behind them," he added.
âoeWe want the cheapest workers possible that will endure the most abuse, and if Trump wonâ(TM)t let us have them, weâ(TM)ll go someplace where we can get them. Obama knew to play ball on this, why canâ(TM)t Trump?â
"We don't want to move our asses from our comfortable offices, but as we can't continue importing cheap labor, we'll have to follow where that cheap labor used to come from."
45 5F E1 04 22 CA 29 C4 93 3F 95 05 2B 79 2A B2
We are in a deep recession, remember all the people that got laid off in the housing crisis aftermath? Maybe offer them a job?
Politics can do what they want, if we want to hire cheap foreigners we'll hire cheap foreigners. Here or abroad.
Ya know, while he's at it, couldn't Trump start putting tariffs on software?
We used to have a Bill of Rights. Now, with the rights gone, all we have left is the bill.
There is an 80's rap song that goes:
Couldn't wait to see, you mommy's anus
Couldn't wait to see, your mommy's ane.
Obsolutey these aren't the words, but the rhythm is the same.
Thanks!
...look what you made me do.
-Microsoft.
...when everything is a crime, everyone is a criminal.
Let's see the actual demographic makeup of their devs. Spoiler: it's overwhelming male and white / Asian / Indian like all other big tech firms. This is just a cheap soundbite to placate the SJW crowd with absolutely no substance behind it, and everyone knows it. Besides, I'm confused: doesn't the H1B program that Microsoft et al abuse exist in practice solely to bring (temporary) immigrants into the country (to work as indentured tech servants and save big corps money)? Their statement here about caring about immigrants is 100% trash -- follow their money.
OMG! Millions will DIE if this happens!
Which probably means every living thing on Earth, because climate change, the election of Donald Trump, the actions of Russian!!!! bots, the repeal of net neutrality, and the nomination of Brett Kavanaugh have already murdered all the rest.
...that wants to hire cheap foreign labor within the USA. They claim they can't get good US help. Well... maybe they can't. If you are about to embark on a career, and are looking at studying for 4 or more years, incurring massive debt, and then having to wait to be hired by businesses that have lowered their wage scale substantially by importing cheap foreign labor that you have to compete with, what are you going to do? Maybe take up law or medicine, if your that smart, because the software industry is now a comparatively low pay industry, and often with insane work hours to boot. These people are smart, and lots of 'em are smarter than lining themselves up to be mediocre middle-classers instead of upper middle-classers is not all that appealing.
Back before the dot-bomb of the early 2000's, actual Americans were making 6 figures, even in those more valuable year-2000 dollars, because real Americans were doing the work. Then the outsourcing and H1B Visas had their impacts, and news from the software wage front has been pretty dismal. This industry sabotaged itself with complicity by the US gov't working against it's citizens.
Tech companies can find experts in any skill they need right here in the US. Any jobs they move abroad are moved to save costs, not because of scarcity of talent.
Fact: there is a global shortage of IT talent.
Fact: US firms import some talent, on either a permanent on temporary basis, to deal with the domestic part of this shortage.
Fact: The current US administration is virulently xenophobic and scares many immigrants.
Fact: US firms need talented workers, regardless of location or nationality.
Fact: Knowledge work can be relocated much more easily than other kinds of work.
Conclusion: Firms will continue import talent to North America, but locate them in Canada rather than the US. This is a lower cost jurisdiction in any case, and while far from perfect has a far more sane political system than the US. Moreover, Canada does not import many temporary foreign workers (it does some, but the bar is set quite high). It imports far more permanent immigrants, which is healthy for all concerned.
It is the wrong kind of immigration policies in US that allow for this "cheapest labor exploitation". Speaking as a Canadian, the work permit here, which is equivalent to H1-B in US is bound to the employer, but the permanent resident status, equivalent to green card is not. So you get here on work permit, apply for permanent resident status couple years later and your employer effectively has no leverage except a just pay and a healthy work environment. Sure it costs 2 years before you can apply, however its not like a decade or so in US at the mercy of your employer.
However, the top 10% of the U.S. are better than the top 1% of dem Indians.
Unfortunately only 4.4% of the world's population lives in the U.S. So, even if the top 10% of the U.S. actually is better than 99% of the world... That 1% of the world, 72 million people, is still twice the number of "10% of the U.S. population".
âoeWe're not going to cut people loose. We're going to stand behind themâ.....a couple days after their annual RIFâ(TM)ing.
"Fuck free market capitalism! Planned economies always outperform the free market. WE WILL BURY YOU!" -- Comrade Trump (in his essay explaining his immigration and tariff policies)
The stupidest thing about US politics today, is that the people who complain the loudest about the president, are called "the left" or "liberals" and the ones who support him are (this is hilarious, you won't believe it!) are called "the right" or "conservatives."
Any chance they can move their Windows 8x, 10x UI with them and leave us stuck with the 9x/XP/7 interface? *Hopeful look*
We want the cheapest workers possible that will endure the most abuse, and if Trump won't let us have them, ...
Because he wants to hire them himself.
https://www.eater.com/2018/7/6/17540914/mar-a-lago-trump-foreign-workers-immigration
http://thehill.com/homenews/administration/396346-mar-a-lago-requesting-permission-to-hire-78-foreign-workers
We just need a Federal excise tax on all domestic sales of software produced outside of the United States. End of problem.
We can't import them, so we export our offices... and because we don't want to seem like we are the bad guys who outsource everything to non-americans, we will blame the goberment.
More skilled people can live and work near their families and we don't need to agree to import tens of millions of welfare recipients or millions of eager workers to bid down wages. Let's go ahead with that.
You want to talk the talk about diversity and racial bias - hire minorities from within your own cities that you're currently located at and TRAIN them.
No no... better to leave the country because you can't find "good people" here in the US.
This says "we dont want to pay high salaries for workers" all over it.
DACA is not about skilled technology workers at all. The man, quite clearly, is against US enforcing its borders in principle...
In Soviet Washington the swamp drains you.
Because most of the Talent doesn't want to see their labor locked behind a license?
Or to have anything to do with their business model?
The "starving artist/prodigy" is a real thing. There are incredibly talented and high quality people out there that money simply won't be able to buy.
Are they obvious? Or doing as much as they could with M$oft behind them? No. But they are doing as well as they can with what they have to work on their own goals in life.
Corporations, and the market in general are increasingly losing touch with the fact there is more to life than wealth hoarding.
Labor is just as fickle as Capital. Microsoft and any big business out there needs to start paying attention to that.
Taft-Hartley won't protect them forever.
Microsoft has advocated the protection of DACA
Why? Because they are hiring child labor?
"All of Windows 10 program is done by India."
Prakesh, that is interesting. Windows 10 has made Microsoft's bad reputation far, far worse, in my opinion.
You also said, "That is why Microsoft has gone to India, because we know that privacy is a problems."
In 2 of your sentences, there are 2 mistakes in your English. That's what we are seeing in Windows 10. There are many, many sloppy bugs.
Windows 10 is possibly the worst spyware ever made. "Buried in the service agreement is permission to poke through everything on your PC." (August 4, 2015)
7 ways Windows 10 pushes ads at you.... (March 3, 2016)
Microsoft again forced upgrades on Win10 machines specifically set to block updates (March 12, 2018)
For the first position to be shifted to overseas, I recommend President and Chief Legal Officer.
That can be offshored.
Microsoft recently had a silent round of layoffs (like they do every fiscal year) which are not performance based.
If the business is struggling so hard to find workers, why are they not utilizing their current personnel to fill open positions instead of letting them go? I find it hard to believe with the breadth of skill sets being let go that there isn't someone in that group that would qualify for these openings.
Branch out to any countries that provide sufficiently stable and corruption free environment and argue to the other countries that want the jobs for the same. Don't go there until the conditions are suitable. That will get the lazy, or power hungry politicians moving. A better world all around. Meanwhile US does what US does with these issues. It's their right within the law and if their policies are failures, they pay a price for them just like everybody else.
So?
Microsoft has been a foreign company residing in the United States, ever since then Chairman Bill Gates campaigned successfully to flood the American labor market with H-1B visas and bring in cheap tech labor from abroad to work in his offices in Redmond, Washington and elsewhere. So lawyer Brad Smith is the mouthpiece for his foreign bosses. He doesn't necessarily represent the American point of view, when he whines about Beltway policies.
There is no reason why Microsoft shouldn't move abroad, where they can find cheaper labor markets, and where they can feel more at home in the international marketplace. Good riddance, Microsoft. Maybe Bill Gates will take his foundation offshore, too. Good riddance Bill and Melinda. Sayonara. Hasta la vista. We no longer need you. Once we import your software from abroad, we'll put a tariff on it, and Washington will be very happy filling its coffers.
Solution: send Trump's resort workers to Programming Bootcamp.
They will be whizzes at it in a few days, and and move over to Microsoft for the rest of their visa period.
Then Trump can hire more foreign workers to replace those he's lost to Microsoft.
Rinse and repeat.
If microsoft wants to play like this i suppose my investments into microsoft will be reevaluated and moved according to the politics of the company. Im sure other companies will be more than happey with my money helping them!
Cost me 500 the first time i invested gaine me very little the second time. other companies pay better dividends and have more people friendly management.
M$ may have a harder time obtaining incompetent yet cheap and exploitable labor from South Asia so they are offshoring.
Weren't they doing this already? (hint: yes).
as opposed to bringing them here on H1-B visas.
Is this supposed to make me feel one way or another for some reason?
in the slightest. He talks a big game but never does anything. He could undo the Obama era rule regarding spouses of H1-Bs whenever he wants, instantly adding 100k jobs for Americans (and putting pressure on the H1-Bs to demand higher salaries to afford stay at home spouses). He promised to do it on the campaign trail, so it's not like he's unaware of the issue too.
Trump runs his businesses with H2-Bs. This is well known. Cutting back on work visas reduces his businesses profitability. Anyone expecting him to do anything that doesn't benefit him personally hasn't been paying attention.
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In Soviet Washington the swamp drains you.
Lots of Indian contractors living 5-6 to an apartment building, just walking distance to Microsoft, hardly any furniture except a TV, they work crazy hours, and send money home.
M$ has been using cheap visa workers for years, everyone around the Seattle area knows it, sees it.
Are these the workers M$ will move overseas? Or the flux of middleman project managers they burn through?
Why is MS(Microsoft) crying? Microsoft has many offices in other countries. Microsoft makes $Trillions$ of dollars so why do they want to hire people for very cheap pay? Because it's called Capitalism. Have a large pool of talented people for the type of job skill set and hire them very cheap. If Corporations of America doesn't take the responsibility of training their workers and misplaced workers then they should have Tariffs on their products. Some of the tariff monies can go to misplaced workers for re-training until they are able to find a new job or transition to their own Open Source company. If the Governments transitioned to Open Source and Linux then there would be lots of new companies across the nation. Why keep on buying Microsoft products if they don't hire Americans? Lets have our government migrate from Windows to Open Source and Linux. So that we all can be employed.
to their shareholders, which is the only legal requirement they have.
If we want them to behave well to their employees we have to force them, and that means electing the kinds of people who will do that. That means less Nancy Pelosi and Paul Ryan and more Bernie Sanders and Alexandria Ocasio-cortez. But the latter leaves a bad taste in people's mouth because nobody likes paying taxes, even if it's for things they want (like enforcing pro-worker regulations)
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if they could have outsourced the jobs to someplace cheaper they would have already done it. You can safely ignore these threats. Lack of H1-Bs will never be a reason to lose jobs. The ability to outsource them is. Capital flows to where labor is cheapest (and yes, that's from Marx, he was right about some things ya know).
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note I said "US Citizens". Because they're here for the long haul. They're citizens. They expect to have careers. Throw away contractors know they're throw away contractors and behave accordingly; spending as much time preparing for the next contract as doing their jobs.
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Yes, government is inefficient and vile, and should never be trusted out sight, but despite that we DO need it in certain instances. The challenge is to keep it reigned in and on target, while ensuring it doesn't take over everything and do what it does best, bureaucratize everything to a stand still.
errr....umm...*whooosh* *whoosh* Is this thing on ?
Companies find it is very difficult to move projects over seas as then you have issues with : 1) Coordination 2) Time difference 3) Project management.
It's time the US put tariffs on Microsoft products manufactured in China and the EU, and it is time to send H-1B workers home and give those jobs back to Americans.
https://www.oregonlive.com/sil... ... Microsoft has previously said it makes its other Surface computers in China."
" Microsoft was moving production to the same place it makes all other Surface products.
And, it's been going on for a long time:
https://gizmodo.com/5517137/mi...
"The conditions—supported by photographic, not just anecdotal evidence—sound downright horrendous:
Workers are hired as "work study students" as young as 16 years of age
They work extremely long shifts, typically "from 7:45 a.m. to 10:55 p.m," for $0.65/hr, less food deductions. (Actual wage: $0.52/hr.)
As is common in large manufacturing operations in China, the workers live onsite:
Fourteen workers share each primitive dorm room, sleeping on narrow double-level bunk beds. To "shower," workers fetch hot water in a small plastic bucket to take a sponge bath. Workers describe factory food as awful.
Workers are kept from leaving campus, except during designated hours
There are reports of sexual harassment of female workers by male security guards"
And, its been going on for years. Learn how NOT to employ Americans here in America:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?...
Running with Linux for over 20 years!
So they'll hire non-American workers in their own countries, instead of bringing them to the US and having them work here. Is that supposed to be a bad thing?
I am so sick of hearing the rich, Tech giants and Hollywood, pretending to be so caring about people and demonizing their opponents, just to exploit foreign workers for low wages.
Let MS move overseas. Unless they are moving to Asia, they are going to find workers overseas have much better protections than in America.
I am pretty sure they are bluffing because they are re-inventing themselves right now. And reinventing themselves into a company that is a traitor to the country where they were founded is probably not the best position they could find themselves in. Trump has already proven he is willing to tussle with companies that aren't acting in America's interest. He's also proven he will back companies that work to improve the country. Given how well the current administration and Apple have been working together I find it hard to believe MS would be stupid enough to make their competitor's ally into their enemy.
All the US tech workers I've come across ( white ones that is) have been generally pretty good, but they have a flaw.
That flaw is they can't easily adapt to new circumstances, or show much initiative. They need quite a bit of coaching and direction.
They're nowhere near as bad as the Indians, but it's still apparent. I suspect it's due to their subconscious "Yes Massa!" mindset they carry around with them. They know if they even so much as look at their boss the wrong way they can be fired and the total financial ruination that would inflict on them.
Just an observation.
a shortage on people talented in being overworked for shit pay and no benefits..
We are now used to this stance: big corporations take economy as an hostage, and elected leaders must accept their rule.
But the news is that president Trump may have no problems with having the hostage killed to prevail.
Let them move all their jobs out of the country - then void all their patents and copyrights in the US. let another company willing to hire US labor build it and replace them.
watch as they suddenly figure out ideas to train, skill and employ US workers.
I know how they are going to update notepad now, get some foreigner who knows how to code to do it.
Eater.com is a Vox Media property. #FakeNews
But I do wonder if this is a major reason Surveillance Valley has been so eager to exclude Americans in favor of imported labor.
The guy who doesn't even live in the US is bitching about US hiring practices. Lady, thy name is hypocrisy.
the DACA "children" are mostly fully-grown adults competing in the workplace against actual US citizens?
Unlike "anchor babies" who illegal alien parents give birth to in the US in order to "anchor" the entire extended illegal family here, these DACA "kids" were "grappling hook babies" whose illegal alien parents tossed over the wall to use to pull the entire extended family across without even the fig leaf of a claim that the child was a citizen. They're far worse than the "anchor babies", having absolutely no claim of any rights at all to be here which is why all the arguments are made based on emotion and sympathy ploys centered on "children".
Sheesh!
The whole damned thing is an anti-American scam. If we decide to grant amnesty to the DACA "kids" then they will be allowed to bring in their parents (who are already here committing ID theft, pushing down the wages and benefits of American citizens, etc) to be made legal - something NO Democrat and no RINO will prohibit in legislation. In effect, the whole family gets to keep their ill-gotten gains because a child was involved. It's like a bank robber taking his kid along on the heist and then demanding he cannot be arrested (because that would separate him from his kid) and he must be let go (because it would be unfair to jail his kid with him) and the child should be allowed to keep the loot (because the child is innocent and had no role in the crime) and then after a couple of years the kid should be allowed to give a big chunk of the stolen money to the parent (because, hey! it's all in the past, dude). But, don't call this "amnesty" (deliberately letting somebody get away with a crime) which it definitely is, that would be racist.
When's the last time an American politician (other than Trump) spent as much time worrying about American citizens as so many of these current politicians and captains of industry spend fawning over these illegal alien "dreamers" and DACA "kids"????
All American citizens should demand the right to wantonly violate all the laws they want to violate, without penalty. If we're gonna destroy the rule of law and celebrate law breaking, we should stop being such anti-American bigots and go all-in - allowing the population who were born here as citizens of citizens to get in on the action. Amnesty for everybody and for everything!
Companies should think long and hard about threatening national governments, which is what Microsloth is doing here.
After all, if Microsloth needs those DACA kids from south of the border to do the work and is claiming the work needs to follow these experts to where ever they get deported to then why would they move the jobs to India rather than El Salvadore and Venezuelea? This is clearly not a case of "you deported my slaves, so I must move the plantation to where the slaves went". This is more like "you deported my slaves, so to get back at you I am opening a new plantation in a place where I get to have even more desirable slaves".
It's actually mighty funny in a sense to watch Microsoft being so publicly racist, like lots of the celebs who threatened to leave the US if Trump got elected. Nearly all those celebs said they's move to white-majority countries; not a damned one of the high-profile jerks announced a pending departure for Senegal or Mexico, etc - it was all about Canada, France, and New Zealand. Same here with Microsoft: Most DACAs are from South of the US-Mexico border, but Microsoft would move all the jobs to a spot in India.... ha ha ha ha... total anti-Hispanic racist plan by Microsoft who should be forced to move to Nicaragua to prove they are not "white supremacists" (or Indian supremacists?) ha ha ha.
You know, if they want a real fight with the US Govt, they should consider what might happen if their Windows operating system was declared a national security threat and banned from all government computers. Bad idea to pick this fight, especially over illegal immigrants.
They already gave them their source code. Ill-Begotten Monstrosities already sold them Lenovo. This could drag down the Chinese economy for decades, while the USA is freed of kludgey baggage to advance the state of the art. Way to Win!
This is weird. Does this mean that Microsoft is uninterested in hiring US citizens?
There are plenty of developers here now in the U.S. It boils down to money, tech giants don't want to spend money on more expensive home grown talent or spend money on training.
"There are no gods, no devils, no angels, no heaven or hell. There is only our natural world. Religion is but myth and
The Trump Administration's tough stance on immigration has attracted a lot of criticism from big technology firms, which rely heavily on CHEAP foreign workers from around the world.
FTFY
Bye, don't let the door etc.
This is the classic liberal approach to shutting down the cheap labor from overseas. The problem is that they think they are saving money, they will spend more per byte just to ensure the get good code. This is a classical liberal fallacy.
Life is in a state of dynamic equilibrium, it both blows and sucks
right? Business want cheap labor. The left doesn't want to be unnecessarily cruel. Personally, I'd like to see us legalize drugs so Mexico & South America can stop being hell holes and maybe fix out foreign policy. While I'm at it tariffs should be based on working conditions & environmental impact.
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Push peopl to wake up MS. Sick of folks standing on the sideline criticising tough stance on immigration ... until it hurts their pocketbook.
Hows it feel to see one of the richest lib companies ditch your job opportunities while at the same time kissing your ass for your liberal vote?