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A Student Was Rejected By A College Because Of China's 'Social Credit System' (buzzfeed.com)
An anonymous reader shares a report: A prestigious college in Beijing that reportedly tried to bar a student because his father was on a government blacklist is causing huge controversy in China. According to state media reports, a high school student with the surname Rao in the eastern city of Wenzhou, in Zhejiang province, was accepted on the back of his score in China's fiendishly difficult and incredibly competitive national college entrance exam. But before his family could enjoy Rao's accomplishments, the college notified them he may not be able to attend because of his father's poor credit standing -- the father owed 200,000 RMB (about $30,000) to a local bank, and had been put on a blacklist dubbed the "lost trust list" for individuals with bad social standing, state media reported.
Blacklists are a key feature of China's controversial "social credit system" -- a set of government programs that sets up both incentives and disincentives to encourage people to behave in socially desirable ways. Social credit in today's China involves government programs that collect and analyze data from different parts of people's lives, including their education history, compliance with traffic rules, criminal history and debt. It has raised serious concerns over individual privacy rights.
Blacklists are a key feature of China's controversial "social credit system" -- a set of government programs that sets up both incentives and disincentives to encourage people to behave in socially desirable ways. Social credit in today's China involves government programs that collect and analyze data from different parts of people's lives, including their education history, compliance with traffic rules, criminal history and debt. It has raised serious concerns over individual privacy rights.
We're talking about China, right?
Just read "I married a communist", a novel about the Mccrathy era. There was a part there where someone was unable to get a scholarship because a friend of his was in a blacklist. Yes, I know that technically one can have the money to study without the scholarship, but I bet that someone rich enough to do that would also have enough money to somehow fix his social credit.
Avantgarde Hebrew science fiction
I thought we weren't supposed to punish children for sins of the father, or the mother, or other family members. We were supposed to punish people for their own sins only.
Do not look into laser with remaining eye.
I thought it was explained when we first read about the system this is exactly what is supposed to happen...
Although frankly I think it a bit unfair to mark the son for the failings of the father. But I guess if you are going to be developing a permanent underclass, it makes more sense to have child social status influenced by the parents as an easier means of keeping them down to the same level for life.
"There is more worth loving than we have strength to love." - Brian Jay Stanley
I think tracking everyone's behavior and then scoring them on it, then using that score to deny them various services is a little fucked. You get negatively scored for j-walking in China-- it's just too draconian. Chill out China, people are more productive when they don't have to look over their shoulder constantly.
640k ought to be enough for anyone.
New moderation needed: -1 Whataboutism
Maw! Fire up the karma burner!
We already have something like this
When Fascism comes to America, it will call itself Anti-Fascism, and tell you to give up your guns.
That's a nice Orwellian society you're building there, China.
As communist dictatorships go, this little thing in this story is pretty mild.
Beats taking him out to a ditch and shooting him because he is an "intellectual" who might mislead the proletariat.
Again, it's a communist dictatorship. The government could have literally ordered that he not be allowed to be born. And they do that very thing, with their population control policy.
Since China insists on inflicting a "social score" on their citizens, I think the rest of the world should do the same on China
Wanna export your products here? Sorry, our "social score" for China prohibits us from doing so
Want our companies to use your workforce? Oh, sorry, China's "social score" doesn't allow for our companies to do business with it
AC comments get piped to
In the usa you can get Student Loans with Bad Credit.
compliance with traffic rules? what is speeding like there?
Is like the USA where you have under posted limits and towns where it's all about the revenue? With some roads where you need to be doing like 75-80+ (posted at 55-60) to get an ticket.
This is how revolutions start.
In America here, we just go straight to using the Credit Score itself as a social credit score. We don't have a second layer on top of it.
Yes, but this is unrealistic in general. It's not like there is a centralized list where everyone's friends and relationships are documented. And even if there was the government agency required to staff it would be ridiculous. You would literally have to trick a moronic populous into entering their own information into a database of sorts.
You've heard of this thing called facebook, right? It would be trivial to mine data for social conections (are any of your friends on our blacklist?), or indeed political/social/religious affiliation for generating said blacklist. "Your brother is a {democrat|republican|christian|muslim}, you cannot attend college here" is not a big stretch. Of course, your rejection letter wouldn't spell out the reason in such a lawsuit-inviting manner, but behind the scenes this kind of discrimination would be trivial to implement, and probably will be (if it hasn't already). Right now its Democrats, muslims, and women who need to worry, but in ten years it might be the opposite. Either way it's bad news for freedom and democracy, and even worse news when we dismiss and ignore the very real possibility of this kind of thing, particularly in a post-Cambridge-Analytica world.
I thought we weren't supposed to punish children for sins of the father, or the mother, or other family members.
There are plenty of countries where such niceties do not apply. There also are countries where women are executed because they had the audacity to get raped and thus soil the family name. Plenty of places will punish your family for your behavior regardless of the objective morality of doing so.
We were supposed to punish people for their own sins only.
That's a nice sentiment that doesn't really happen even in the US. Heck if you were so foolish as to be born to parents that were poor and a minority then chances are very high you are going to have trouble getting into a good college. If you inherited dark skin from your parents you'll get harassed by the TSA and police when you travel. Oh we don't explicitly punish people for what their parents or children have done. We do it on the down low or informally so that we can retain a good conscience about the whole thing.
Totalitarians have never understood a simple fact about this sort of thing: maybe the apple falls far from the tree, maybe it doesn't, but it's easier to hold power by cultivating love and respect among your subjects than fear. They forget the basic principle Machiavelli laid out that most long ruling rulers have always understood, which is the hierarchy is "love, then respect, then fear" with no fourth option.
Ruling the masses through fear is particularly dangerous because at times of crisis, it will never inspire selfless acts of loyalty to the country. Men might lay down their lives for their friends and families in a crisis in such a society, but they won't go the extra mile for the polity itself, and in a time of true crisis like a major war that can have terrible consequences when facing an enemy that inspires fanatical love and respect in their people.
This is a very backward system... thank goodness in America we have a legal system that does not allow responsibility for crimes or wrongs to be passed on from the parent to a child.
Hell --- our constitution even prevents it from the most severe crimes which in Europe were considered a permanent dishonor to one's family and future descendants Article III Section 3:
Read that twice.... Not only can wrongs NOT be inherited, But if property is forfeited because of the crime: the government is only allowed to have it Forfeit for the rest of the Life of the Person attainted ---
thus upon their death, their estate still have the right to whatever had been forfeited when they were alive.
Have you not yet realized that the only valid reason to cite anything in the WaPo is to highlight the problem of incredibly biased reporting that now exists in the US media?
Just wait until the left gets their way in allowing student loans to be discharged in bankruptcy, then the standards for student loans will tighten up real quick in a spectacular backfire. Student loans will immediately become only for the wealthy and privileged. Your dad doesn't have a 750 FICO score? No student loan for you!
You'll get banks who will probably go way beyond credit scores: you'll get banks who will deny student loans because the major you want to pursue is on the bank's secret blacklist of college majors not to approve loans for because the default rate for that major is too high.
And then schools are forced drop tuition prices as enrollment levels drop because no one can afford to get in. Meanwhile, affordable community colleges and vocational schools jump for joy as they see enrollments levels jump dramatically.
The only thing necessary for evil to triumph is for it to be pitted against a slightly greater evil
Just having student loans be federal only with income based payback can help.
And schools will be forced to cut costs / improve the teaching.
Common people!!! This is not a tech story. Who the hell is letting this crap through?
Average Intelligence is a Scary Thing
As bad as you think it could be, this is the future for most countries.
Just as telescopes are lenses that look into the past, China/India are lenses into the future of eventual overpopulated countries. Granted that this one of many futures as China/India are different. ...however... its coming. Prepare for it.
Just as you've got the war on cash to get everyone into a system that can be tracked, this will force more people into a future fully monitored society.
You're contrasting implementation details. If you can't afford something is the same thing as if you are forbidden from it if the result is the same.
America does basically the same thing with their credit system.
Usually you're a legal adult by the time you start college. Your parents credit rating is totally irrelevant at that point. Even if your parents were to die, you don't inherit their bad credit. Unlike China. Our capitalist system has a lot of faults, but we do have a progressive culture earned through centuries of mistakes and injustices. Mistakes like indentured servants, debtors prisons, and more were gone by the 20th century in the US. Admittedly in the 21st century there is a small but powerful faction in the US that are trying their best to bring back a form of debtors prison. I'd argue these people are regressive rather than conservative, they aren't trying to maintain the status quo but trying to revert to a time that existed before their own birth.
But the Western perspective is not entirely appropriate for judging China. If you were to look at other Asian countries, you can take a progressive society like Japan which has shifted dramatically in the last 50 years. And the small right wing faction within Japan that still exists that wishes to pull them back to the "good old days". Many of what is considered traditional in much of Asian is explicitly spelled out by Uyoku Dantai. China doesn't have an equivalent organization, because instead of a small faction, it's the ruling party and generally held belief by many Chinese people especially in rural areas. China never had their progressive cultural shift, so they are effectively 50 years behind Japan.
This,
or getting rejected because you are a white male?
That's not true at all. Though I agree with you, that Washington Post is incredibly biased, that bias alone may help any argument against the interests and policies generally defended by the newspaper: if even WaPo dislikes it (something by someone they'd usually praise), it must be really bad... On top of that, for all their bias, they normally would not outright lie (except by omission). Their coverage is tilted, but whatever they state is fact, usually is a fact.
Besides, I cited two other sources... Now, do you want to discuss the actual argument?
In Soviet Washington the swamp drains you.
Just wait until the left gets their way in allowing student loans to be discharged in bankruptcy, then the standards for student loans will tighten up real quick in a spectacular backfire.
What standards? Most US Federal student loans made to students directly (Stafford and Perkins loans). These loans are made regardless of credit history (most students have no credit history); approval is automatic if the student meets program requirements. $1.3 billion of US federal student loans are owed.
Do you think that the same government that would make student loans dischargeable would step up requirements for government loans? No, they'd just go all the way to making college free.
This is about a debt to the bank, not about saying "China is bad."
That's not what I read in any article about the new social capital plan. The stuff I read a while ago said your score was influenced not *just* by things you said, but just as much by your behavior in public (based on facial tracking cameras located around cities), and things like your financial actions. So this fits right in, the only slightly new bit being a fairly old son affected by a fathers social capital score - but even there I remember reading it would affect what schools your kids could get into, I thought it just meant grade schools at the time.
"There is more worth loving than we have strength to love." - Brian Jay Stanley
you'll get banks who will deny student loans because the major you want to pursue is on the bank's secret blacklist of college majors not to approve loans for because the default rate for that major is too high.
That list is hardly a secret. Hint: if the major contains the word "studies", you'll still be working at Starbucks afterwards.
Socialism: a lie told by totalitarians and believed by fools.
That's why Manifort is in solitary confinement for a 2005 IRS issue.
Why Flynn is charged with lying to FBI despite witnesses from the FBI saying he didn't lie.
Then
McCabe, who the FBI's IG said lied under oath 3 times to the FBI hasn't been charged.
Other than its Muller acting like McCarthy and Trump not, you are correct. Muller seems to be asking anyone if they have ever talked to a Russian ever, and if they have its jail time for them without bail. I don't think any of McCarthy's people were in jail, so Muller is actually worse.
Presidents do not appoint Attorney Generals (nor Deputies), they nominate them. That's a technical inaccuracy, but not a lie.
Trump did nominate Rosenstein — and the Senate confirmed him.
In Soviet Washington the swamp drains you.
unrealistic?
It's not like there is a...?
You would literally have to trick a moronic populous into entering their own information into a database of sorts.?
I laughed so hard that ROFLMAO doesn't even begin to capture it.
But I appreciate your earnest sarcasm. Well played!
"tried to bar a student because his father was on a government blacklist is causing huge controversy in China" gonna be on so many lists now after stirring the shit, they can probably feel their social score dropping harder the bass.
When this thing was coming out, I spoke in defense of it. I mean, America has it's own credit score system. I didn't really see a big difference between outsourcing it to 3 semi-branches of government or having it directly controlled by government. I thought it was going to be used for loans and stuff.
Nope. Travel rights, blanket punishment for Muslims, college admittance. Fuck that noise.
Anyone a fan of cyberpunk? Neuromancer, Snowcrash, Shadowrun? I'm a firm believer that we've simply caught up to those "20 minutes into the future forecasts". It's not as extreame, but... squint a little and they were pretty accurate. And China is the scary authoritarian government jackboot thug future that so many predicted. "The man" that the punks were supposed to fight back against. Turns out they were run over with tanks and saying their names is grounds for black-bagging.
Damn shame, things were looking good before Pooh-bear came to power.
We really need to start looking at the long term effects of these systems om societies. After all, here in the west the market is slowly piecing together a similar infrastructure (databrokers and their ilk).
While China covets these chilling effects, here in the west we might best frame when as an unwelcome side-effect, e.g. Social Cooling. https://www.socialcooling.com/
Some of these people are imprisoned purely for the purpose of becoming organ donors for the new elite.
https://edition.cnn.com/2016/0...
https://www.theguardian.com/wo...
for single payer healthcare in America here comes another. And just to be clear, the article linked is talking about Medicaid, which is what poor people get, not _Medicare_, which is free healthcare old people get so that when they go to the polls they vote against free healthcare for everybody else.
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it's a dictatorship. Nothing, and I mean _nothing_ about China is communist. Not even a little bit. For Christ's sake, they're our biggest trading partner. They have more millionaires and billionaires than the US does (to be fair that's mostly up to their large population, but the point still stands, millionaires wouldn't exist in a communist dictatorship).
Oh, and China no longer controls birth rates. They've finished emptying out the villages and they need the kids again.
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Of course you can. Because the loans are guaranteed by the government, non-dischargeable by bankruptcy, extremely high interest compared to car or home loans, and they can garnish your wages and that of your family for life until the debt's paid off.
It's a lot like loansharking. Anyone can get it, because they have ways of making sure their investment doesn't go to waste.
or whatever gadget you're typing it on? Are you OK with paying more for virtually everything? Say about 10-20% more?
I am, since I think it'll raise my wages if we have to compete fairly with China. But most folks I talk to are so close to going bankrupt (60% of Americans live paycheck to paycheck) that there's no way they'd support that.
Hi! I make Firefox Plug-ins. Check 'em out @ https://addons.mozilla.org/en-US/firefox/addon/youtube-mp3-podcaster/
parts of Michigan (Flint, bits of Detroit) and large swaths of our deep Southern states are as bad as anything you'll find in China with rampant (and cancerous) pollution, barely functional schools and slavery in the form of private prisons with work "programs". There's not as much of it, but we're also about 1/4 the size of China. Also, where China seems to be trying to fix their problems (I say "seems", who knows if they really are) we're getting worse, not better.
Hi! I make Firefox Plug-ins. Check 'em out @ https://addons.mozilla.org/en-US/firefox/addon/youtube-mp3-podcaster/
This is about a computer system used to track scores for people social standing. There is nothing more techy that that. It's just techy in a dystopian way.
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ALL Chinese citizens attempting to buy property (money launder) in
Melbourne
Auckland
Sydney
London
San Francisco
Vancouver
Toronto
and anywhere else the young have had their hopes of owning a home, destroyed by a massive influx of foreign wealth driving up prices?
Cmon China, keep your rich people home, please
Indeed. That is why the censor let the matter be a huge controversy in the first place. Otherwise we would just not hear about it at all.
What is frightening is that ordinary people in the west do not value their democratic freedoms.
You are right, $1.3 TRILLION
Really though.
They are usually less productive when lying in the middle of the road after being hit by a truck. Everyone else is now late for work too having to drive slowly around them. Bad for productivity all round.