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Half the World Is Now Middle Class Or Wealthier, Says Brookings Institution (brookings.edu)

schwit1 shares a report from the Brookings Institution: Something of enormous global significance is happening almost without notice. For the first time since agriculture-based civilization began 10,000 years ago, the majority of humankind is no longer poor or vulnerable to falling into poverty. By our calculations, as of this month, just over 50 percent of the world's population, or some 3.8 billion people, live in households with enough discretionary expenditure to be considered "middle class" or "rich." About the same number of people are living in households that are poor or vulnerable to poverty. So September 2018 marks a global tipping point. After this, for the first time ever, the poor and vulnerable will no longer be a majority in the world. Barring some unfortunate global economic setback, this marks the start of a new era of a middle-class majority.

In most countries, there is a clear relationship between the fate of the middle class and the happiness of the population. According to the Gallup World Poll, new entrants into the middle class are noticeably happier than those stuck in poverty or in vulnerable households. Conversely, individuals in countries where the middle class is shrinking report greater degrees of personal stress. The middle class also puts pressure on governments to perform better. They look to their governments to provide affordable housing, education, and universal health care. They rely on public safety nets to help them in sickness, unemployment or old age. But they resist efforts of governments to impose taxes to pay the bills. This complicates the politics of middle-class societies, so they range from autocratic to liberal democracies. Many advanced and middle-income countries today are struggling to find a set of politics that can satisfy a broad middle-class majority. The tipping point in the world today offers opportunities for business but complications for policymakers.

279 comments

  1. B.S. by rsilvergun · · Score: 4, Insightful

    At least 60% of Americans are living paycheck to paycheck. That's not middle class and it's certainly not "no longer at risk of poverty".

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    1. Re:B.S. by Opportunist · · Score: 3, Funny

      Yes, it's looking down for Americans, but Indians, Chinese, Russians and a lot of others are doing so much better! Celebrate!

      --
      We used to have a Bill of Rights. Now, with the rights gone, all we have left is the bill.
    2. Re:B.S. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Yeah, but those are socialist countries so something somthing.... capitalism! Usa, Usa, Usa! MAGA!

    3. Re:B.S. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Celebrate what? Further American destitution? This site is like poor man's 8chan.

    4. Re:B.S. by sad_ · · Score: 2

      They are talking about the complete world population, it's possible the US is worse of, but the rest of the world seems to be doing better.

      Interesting bit is this;

      "The middle class also puts pressure on governments to perform better. They look to their governments to provide affordable housing, education, and universal health care. They rely on public safety nets to help them in sickness, unemployment or old age."

      Sounds just like the things that are lacking in the US?

      --
      On a long enough timeline, the survival rate for everyone drops to zero.
    5. Re:B.S. by DNS-and-BIND · · Score: 0

      Who cares about the American middle class? They're deplorable. Banksy makes art ridiculing their tastes. The whole world looks down on their cookie cutter McMansions in identical suburbs. Where's this sudden sympathy for them coming from?

      --
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    6. Re:B.S. by dcw3 · · Score: 5, Interesting

      Actually, the percentage is higher, but it also includes a shockingly high percentage of people in the upper-middle class. Most people are inept at handling their own finances, and that's partially to blame on our education system. We don't teach our young how to live on their own...it should be a requirement for HS graduation.

      https://www.investopedia.com/a...

      --
      Just another day in Paradise
    7. Re:B.S. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      In a lot of cases that's not because they earn to little money
      but because they have the bad habit of spending more then they earn

      Most of those people have a spending problem, not an earning problem, that's why studies of lottery winners show that most of them end up right back where they started after a couple of years

    8. Re:B.S. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 2, Insightful

      At least 60% of Americans are living paycheck to paycheck. That's not middle class and it's certainly not "no longer at risk of poverty".

      Living paycheck-to-paycheck because you just HAVE TO HAVE all the latest video games while paying for high-speed streaming on your cable TV and your four cell phones and having two cars while paying for a 3,000 sq ft house isn't the fault of the system.

      It's the fault of the idiot.

    9. Re:B.S. by asylumx · · Score: 5, Insightful

      Sure they are living paycheck to paycheck, but perhaps that's because they are paying the credit card bill for the 65" flat screen TV they spend all their time watching, or the loan payments & gas for the SUV or pickup truck they drive around that gets only 12 MPG?

      Hint: that is all discretionary spending. If you're living paycheck to paycheck because you chose to spend all your money, that doesn't make you poor.

    10. Re:B.S. by Opportunist · · Score: 1

      Read the article carefully. It said that half the world is now middle-class. And considering that for the same resources you can make 10 Indians "Indian-middle-class" that it would take to make an American "American-middle-class"... well... welcome to global market and price optimization.

      --
      We used to have a Bill of Rights. Now, with the rights gone, all we have left is the bill.
    11. Re:B.S. by Kokuyo · · Score: 0

      I live paycheck to paycheck.

      This is actually partially by design. Having cash lying around or worse in a bank does not seem to be a very smart thing to do nowadays.

      I am affluent enough to handle unforeseen expenditures like a broken down car over the course of two or three months. That's what credit cards are for and so far each and every last business I've dealt with had no issue with being told that I'd have to split paying the bill over two months or so.

      If it's medical: I live in a first world country. I will not go into debt over medical issues.

      I have parents and friends that can help me out if worse came to worst.

      In the meantime, I'm putting quite a bit of cash into the apartment I own. That is, more or less, saved cash although liquidating wouldn't be all that straight forward.

      I don't have enough trust in banks to give them my money anymore. The impact on my life that this money has being spent as it comes in is more valuable to me than a feeling of security a bank account would give me. This is so because I'm just not scared enough in day to day life.

    12. Re:B.S. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      At least 60% of Americans are living paycheck to paycheck

      Welcome to the world of running a small business. All the risk, debt is backed by personal property and the only ones giving you money are banks through their consumer finance departments. And who has the money to pay their retirement insurances anyway?

    13. Re:B.S. by Opportunist · · Score: 1

      Well, endangered species usually get some sympathy.

      --
      We used to have a Bill of Rights. Now, with the rights gone, all we have left is the bill.
    14. Re:B.S. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Did you know that there is a whole world outside of Amerika?

    15. Re:B.S. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      It said in "the world" not in "America".

    16. Re:B.S. by denzacar · · Score: 1

      At least 60% of Americans are living paycheck to paycheck. That's not middle class and it's certainly not "no longer at risk of poverty".
             

      Entire US is about 4.4% of the global population.
      Sooo... don't be so US-centric and egoistic and learn to accept the math? Maybe?

      Particularly when you're calling "bullshit" on a what, by your own numbers is 0.44% of the ENTIRE WORLD population.
      You know... that 10% of US population you don't believe are doing better than you believe.
      I do not believe that your beliefs are believable.

      --
      Mit der Dummheit kämpfen Götter selbst vergebens
    17. Re:B.S. by necro81 · · Score: 1

      If it's medical: I live in a first world country. I will not go into debt over medical issues.

      Ah! You must not be living in the United States, then. Around here, even people with medical insurance routinely go into debt and bankruptcy over medical issues.

    18. Re: B.S. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Middle class is a subjective term. Calling someone earning 30k middle class, when the cost of living and goods keeps ewcalating, is just another example of how statistical math gets misused.

      There was recently an article about people in the SF Bay area making 6 figures and STILL qualifying for subsidized housiing. Income alone is a terrible litmus. A better method would be to come up with an index that also takes into account the things required to be paid monthly. For example they never factor in the monthly cost of mobile phone bills or internet; yet both are almost mandatory to have a job anymore.

      Think about this, living in an area where 6 figure salary barely breaks the poverty level, how much of an impact is a $900 cellphone compared to someone living in the midwest whose imcome is just $38000? Its a mich bigger bite out of the second guysâ(TM) ass for sure.

    19. Re:B.S. by wisnoskij · · Score: 1

      No. All Americans are either making minimum wage at minimum or getting welfare which is even more money. This makes them fall into the lower bracket of the 1% super wealthy, or just barely miss it depending on the state.

      Everyone lives paycheck to paycheck. What determines if you are middle class or not is the size of that paycheck.

      --
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    20. Re:B.S. by astrofurter · · Score: 2

      When a few people here and there are living paycheck to paycheck - sure, you can claim that's a "personal responsibility" problem.

      When 60% of the population of a once-prosperous nation are living paycheck to paycheck - that's public policy. Trying to pull your "personal responsibility" blame game just makes you look like a self-righteous bootlicker.

    21. Re:B.S. by El+Cubano · · Score: 4, Informative

      At least 60% of Americans are living paycheck to paycheck. That's not middle class and it's certainly not "no longer at risk of poverty".

      You trot out this sort of statistic every time. A quick look at some actual facts will show you that the issue is more complex than that. Also, it would help if you stuck to a consistent set of figures. Here is you a few days ago claiming the number is 78% percent.

      Yes, I know that "at least 60%" can be considered to cover 78% as well, but the fact that you chose the stronger number the fist time a few days ago and then softened your statement this time makes me think you don't actually believe the number or they are bogus.

      Then, here is me using top of the line smart phone sales numbers to show that a good portion of those supposedly living pay check to pay check are still possessed of a considerable amount of disposable income. Of course, I was modded "troll" for my trouble.

      The bottom line, is we can't both be in an era where most people are in danger of falling into poverty at any moment and at the same time be in an era where most people have more discretionary income than at any time in history. Given the people I know and the choices I see them make, I am going to stick with: people (at least in the US) who live pay check to pay check mostly live that way because they fully embrace consumerism as a way of life.

    22. Re:B.S. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1

      At least 60% of Americans are living paycheck to paycheck. That's not middle class and it's certainly not "no longer at risk of poverty".

      There's a reason TFS included the verbiage "discretionary expenditure". It's to help clarify the fact that the latest model iPhone, Netflix, and Starbucks every day are NOT basic necessities in life, which that mentality is part of the fucking reason snowflakes live paycheck to paycheck.

      Not saying this applies to everyone out there who's struggling, but there's a whole lot of spoiled Americans who need to grow the fuck up, stop pissing their money away on stupid shit, and gain some perspective. Every citizen in a first world country is considered middle class when compared to most of the population in 3rd world countries. Living paycheck to paycheck is still living. Be thankful you have clean water, and don't have to wonder if you're going to die from some preventable disease tomorrow.

    23. Re: B.S. by Type44Q · · Score: 1

      They've simply redefined "middle class" - it now means "serf too stupid to even it."

    24. Re:B.S. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      They're living paycheck to paycheck because they're driving $50,000 diesel trucks, eating out 7 days a week, and generally spending every dollar they make as fast as it comes in. Living paycheck to paycheck is more common among low earners, but certainly not exclusive to low earners. There are even cases of doctors living paycheck to paycheck. It's a spending problem, not an earning problem.

    25. Re: B.S. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      That's by design. It's the nearly guaranteed reset button for anyone hoping to climb up and be successful. The rate of success has to be high enough to offset the nearly guaranteed health decline rate.

    26. Re:B.S. by GoTeam · · Score: 1

      They shouldn't need to go into bankruptcy for medical bills. When my first child was born, my wife and I had no insurance and almost no money. We set up a payment plan where we paid $50 a month. I just finished paying off her birth last month when she turned 8 years old. Most people don't understand that with medical bills you (mostly) don't have to pay interest as long as you keep paying. There have been many more medical emergencies and procedures since then. When I've been unable to pay it at the time, I was able to work out the same types of deals where I pay no interest. Some doctors or hospitals will try to get you to use a medical credit program that will charge you interest, but they do that so they don't have to deal with the bookkeeping themselves.

    27. Re:B.S. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Living paycheck-to-paycheck because you just HAVE TO HAVE all the latest video games while paying for high-speed streaming on your cable TV and your four cell phones and having two cars while paying for a 3,000 sq ft house isn't the fault of the system.

      It's the fault of the idiot.

      Conveniently conflate and blame those who have bad behavior as the whole huh? No, the idiots you are talking about aren't even the majority of those who are living paycheck-to-paycheck.

    28. Re:B.S. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Yes, it's looking down for Americans, but Indians, Chinese, Russians and a lot of others are doing so much better! Celebrate!

      Don't forget Brazil. Yay!!

    29. Re:B.S. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Who cares about the American middle class? They're deplorable. Banksy makes art ridiculing their tastes. The whole world looks down on their cookie cutter McMansions in identical suburbs. Where's this sudden sympathy for them coming from?

      Is it a common belief in Euro-wherever that US middle-class equates to McMansions? Last I checked it isn't a requirement or anything.

      I don't know what a Banksy is, but I'm pretty sure real life is not well represented by what one sees on television or the internet, well, pretty much the world over.

    30. Re:B.S. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      At least 60% of Americans are living paycheck to paycheck. That's not middle class and it's certainly not "no longer at risk of poverty".

      Disingenuous. Americans have a debt problem (some might say a new-iphone-every-year problem), not an income problem. They make middle class money, and spend upper class money.

    31. Re:B.S. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Facts please. Your statement is no more correct than asylumx's. Without knowing WHY people are living paycheck to paycheck your counter argument is meaningless.

    32. Re:B.S. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 2, Interesting

      ...If it's medical: I live in a first world country. I will not go into debt over medical issues....

      Good for you. I live in America. My family is bankrupt due to efforts at keeping a child alive and healthy. Whenever I meet somebody new that learns of my situation, more often than not they start ranting this or that about Trump. They miss the fact that 8 years ago Obama made a few changes that caused the cost of my insurance to nearly double each year. It might have been a wonderful system for lots of people, but I was in some loophole or other and when healthcare costs grew past 50% of household expenses, retirement funds were gone, etc it was a pretty fast spiral into poverty.

      I honestly don't care who likes which politicians. They are all lying scum when you look at what they do rather than what they say. The middle class is a sheep to be shorn for their own gain to those in power, nothing more.

    33. Re:B.S. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      It is middle class by the new definition that was introduced when the economy started to recover after the 2007 mortgage crisis.
      But indeed the wealth of the middle class has declined substantially relative to the 1970's when a single middle class income did provide quite well for a family.

    34. Re:B.S. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1

      Can confirm: the 2.3 billion people in China and India entering the middle class couldn't give a fuck about how many Americans can afford cable.

    35. Re:B.S. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 2, Insightful

      So you would like to live like the Chinese, Russians or Indians do? Have you considered migration? Surely those countries are wide open to accept poor foreigners into their fold.

    36. Re:B.S. by nukenerd · · Score: 1

      Banksy is a British graffiti artist.

    37. Re:B.S. by Questy · · Score: 1

      Those characteristics can be a result of poor personal management and planning.
      Working with other people to manage their finances (Dave Ramsey classes), I find that individuals on the lower end of the income scale do not have resources and savings due to their inability to discipline themselves in their own spending. Eating out instead of eating in, frivolous spending on entertainment and multiple data streams into the home, multiple car notes simultaneously, and so forth are the result of bad decisions, not that of poor station in life.
      I've seen those making in the 20's to 30's with 4 children who were living paycheck to paycheck begin to discipline themselves and start to rise out of this poverty mentality. By denying their instincts to "pleasure now", they are able to rise above their station and plan for "pleasure later" all due to self discipline.
      It can be done and is being done in large scale simply by beginning to discipline yourself, stop borrowing money you don't have, live within your means, and taking care of business before pleasure.

      --
      #!/Jerald
    38. Re:B.S. by Austerity+Empowers · · Score: 2

      what you may not understand, is that actually someone is paying your interest, uncovered expenses and (for some hospitals) profit for you when they show up to the hospital with either a) money or b) insurance. You are benefiting from a form of socialized health care wherein any sucker who can afford to pay has to pay on your behalf assuming they live in your hospital's general area.

      It's not awful, it keeps people from terrible situations. Obviously it won't cover cancer, but it's letting certain people who live in very exclusive areas avoid paying anything at all, while others that have enough money, but not a lot have to foot the bill. To give you an idea, 10 years ago my son's birth was billed at $15,000. This was a traditional vaginal delivery, no anesthesia (which would have been like $5k more, because it requires a spinal). To pay that in 8 years would have been $150/month (assuming no interest). The difference is that I have insurance and was charged the rate of someone who has insurance. In fact I paid very little out of my pocket directly, and the dollar value I was charged is mostly irrelevant (the premiums that come out of my paycheck are quite relevant). I'm guessing you were charged something more like cost. So I paid for you and one other person to have a baby. (Twice, since I have two kids).

      The answer is still to socialize health care but over the entire population rather than use fees, and make everyone pay proportional to their ability to pay, independently of where they live or their current need to use a hospital. Babies are perhaps a bad discussion since people should not be having babies unless they can afford them, but heart attacks, broken bones and cancer are delivered unrequested.

    39. Re:B.S. by stealth_finger · · Score: 1

      They shouldn't need to go into bankruptcy for medical bills. When my first child was born, my wife and I had no insurance and almost no money. We set up a payment plan where we paid $50 a month. I just finished paying off her birth last month when she turned 8 years old...

      Funny, when my first child was born we had no insurance and almost no money. The pregnancy wasn't great and ended with an emergency c-section at 32 weeks then a stay in neonatal intensive care for a couple months and I never had to pay a penny and walked out without even a consideration of money. We even got free formula for a year. My wife has also had two pulmonary embolisms and has treatments for endometriosis. Grand total cost. 0.00. Socialised medicine is great (when its funded properly).

      --
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    40. Re:B.S. by stealth_finger · · Score: 1

      Sure they are living paycheck to paycheck, but perhaps that's because they are paying the credit card bill for the 65" flat screen TV they spend all their time watching, or the loan payments & gas for the SUV or pickup truck they drive around that gets only 12 MPG? Hint: that is all discretionary spending. If you're living paycheck to paycheck because you chose to spend all your money, that doesn't make you poor.

      So what you're saying is EVERY job pays an excess of what someone needs and the ONLY reason they might not be able to get by is because they can't control spending? Are you seriously that fucking detached from reality? I bet you think all unemployed people are just lazy too don't you?

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    41. Re:B.S. by stealth_finger · · Score: 1

      It said in "the world" not in "America".

      Most Americans can't distinguish between the two.

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    42. Re:B.S. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Whether it's personal responsibility or public policy doesn't mean they are in poverty. They can sell their SUV and get a cheaper car and no longer be living paycheck to paycheck. Someone in the developing world might be unable to afford even a bike.

    43. Re:B.S. by Curunir_wolf · · Score: 2

      Yes, it's looking down for Americans, but Indians, Chinese, Russians and a lot of others are doing so much better! Celebrate!

      These two things are related, you know. US policies have made both things happen (less prosperity for American middle class and more prosperity for the third world).

      --
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      --- Jerry Garcia
    44. Re: B.S. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      I've got mine, so screw you Jack!

    45. Re:B.S. by Austerity+Empowers · · Score: 1

      It might also be a personal responsibility problem, that's definitely real, I've seen it with my own eyes in my own family. It's not about education, one doctor and one army colonel can't seem to figure out what they can really afford. They know math, they understand banks and financing. But they seem to lack self control. I'm not sure that can be taught.

      The other side of the coin is that things are very expensive in the US due to investment and general security of those investments. I blame most of it on housing and real-estate. Given that most of the US is very sparsely populated and we have tons of available land, there's no particular reason why real-estate should even be a good investment. But various arbitrary forces and heavy investment ensures that it is. We had hoped maybe that the rise of the internet would let people leave city centers, but it seems like the opposite is happening and it's very, very expensive.

      If real-estate is expensive, it blows everything up. It blows your own personal rent/mortgage up, it makes the goods you buy cost more, it makes your employer want to pay less. All so that we can support a real-estate investment factor that's probably unnecessary and unhelpful. It might require someone bursting our bubble to reset us to a point where we can enjoy our relative wealth.

    46. Re:B.S. by GoTeam · · Score: 1

      You have me confused with someone who paid nothing at all. I ended up paying an agreed upon amount of money (about 60% of the original bill(s) which included an emergency C-section). I have since had two more children. I've had insurance for those births, but the insurance was so laughably useless (especially compared to my high monthly premiums) that I paid more money for each of those births (neither of which were C-sections). Even with having insurance, I was able to set up a small (though larger than the first birth) monthly payment with 0 interest. I paid off my second child's birth within a year of his birth. My third (and thankfully final) child is almost paid off and he's turning one this month. Again, 0 interest. The secret is to not let the bills get to collections. Once it goes to collections, your ability to negotiate a favorable bill with no interest diminishes.

    47. Re:B.S. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Half of India is still shitting in the woods.

      Who knows what's happening in China. I think China kind of breaks all records when it comes to income inequality. From dirt poor, grass hut living to Jack Ma.

    48. Re:B.S. by saltydogdesign · · Score: 1

      U.S. population accounts for about 4% of the world population, so that's probably not where this prosperity is coming from, by and large.

      --
      // This is not a sig.
    49. Re:B.S. by saltydogdesign · · Score: 1

      Or, perhaps it's because their money is impregnated with acid. I'm sorry, I am in the fact free zone, right?

      --
      // This is not a sig.
    50. Re: B.S. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Look everyone, it's a richie rich private school nepotist telling poor people how they aren't really poor.

    51. Re:B.S. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 2, Interesting

      Eh, I've traveled Europe fairly extensively and I've never actually met a European who has any problems with Americans in person. As far as I can tell, they only exist on the Internet. As such, I have to assume they just never leave their homes. Maybe if the internet trolls who constantly bash Americans actually went outside and saw the world they'd be a bit less insufferable.

    52. Re:B.S. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      That's just stupid talk.
      India has billionaires as well as a majority shitting in fields. China can't be worse than that.
      America wold take the crown. Homeless people living on the streets, people living in cars and then the richest people in the world.

    53. Re:B.S. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      I am affluent enough to handle unforeseen expenditures like a broken down car over the course of two or three months.

      I will not go into debt over medical issues.

      This just doesn't add up.
      If you can't afford to even fix your car for 3 months, how do you possible think you will pay for things if you are sick for a month?
      You will be using the banks (that you despise) credit to live. You are totally dependent on the banks lending you money, and have no ability to pay it back. Best hope they don't find out.

    54. Re:B.S. by LynnwoodRooster · · Score: 2

      Is it a common belief in Euro-wherever that US middle-class equates to McMansions?

      Typically only amongst those who do poorly, economically. What they fail to realize is that about 42% of Europe lives in apartments, and in the US almost 80% live in free-standing homes. To a large segment (nearly half) of Europeans, owning your own freestanding home just isn't realistic, it's what "the rich" have, and thus ANY freestanding home must be a "McMansion". Of course, when we have over twice the land area, and only 60% of the population, so it should be no surprise that we have much lower density living...

      --
      Browsing at +1 - no ACs, I ignore their posts. So refreshing!
    55. Re:B.S. by LynnwoodRooster · · Score: 1

      Oh, you paid for it. Guaranteed. What's your tax rate?

      --
      Browsing at +1 - no ACs, I ignore their posts. So refreshing!
    56. Re:B.S. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      When 60% of the population of a once-prosperous nation are living paycheck to paycheck - that's public policy.

      So you think it's appropriate for the government to prohibit people from choosing how to spend their own money?
      What do you want? Forced savings? A ban on debt?
      I know, I know! Every time a middle class person spends down to $0, we should choose a "rich" person by lottery and confiscate enough to top them off!

    57. Re:B.S. by Malizar · · Score: 1

      We are moving to a global economy, problem with that is that wages in the US are well above global rates. So, as other countries come up, the US will go down. Pretty much everyone in the US makes more than the average globally.

    58. Re:B.S. by Austerity+Empowers · · Score: 1

      No, you paid what you could. The hospital expects people like me to pay the rest, my insurance covered most of the "cost". They either can't, or won't, stay in business with offers like yours. The best reason for you to believe me, is that they could have made more money with your loan by just putting it in a checking account than they made from your transaction. Hospitals all over the US run on this model, and it's fine but could be much better.

      There are also people who pay nothing and walk out the door. Others who default on the loan and it gets sent to collections, but collections takes a piece if they are paid, or they're not paid. You were probably not paying for them, but I am. All of it is part of the hospital's balance sheet.

    59. Re:B.S. by houghi · · Score: 1

      That's what credit cards are for and so far each and every last business I've dealt with had no issue with being told that I'd have to split paying the bill over two months or so.

      That is absolutely not what credit cards are for. That is how they are used, but that is not what they ar for.
      The same as friends and family. It is nice to have them as a security net, but that does not mean you should cut out the other ones, because you do not trust banks. keep the money under your pillow, for all I care, or give it to your friends and family and say you will ask for it back when you need it.

      And a broken car could mean the need to buy a new car.

      I live in Belgium. I see that I have enough to last me a year without income. I have had a situation where I had no income for 9 months (and then got all my unemployment money + some extra cash from the old company) for paperwork issues. 3 months? That is nothing.

      I had to borrow money from my parents. Not a nice feeling. Happy I never had to do that again. I did not borrow from friends for longer than a week, because that is not what friends are for.

      And I as hell no way put anything on my card. I was in debt at the bank for something like 1.000 EUR or so, but nothing on the card. Not a cent. Not with the interest rates they are charging.

      And putting your extra money into your home will be an unwise investment. I asume that you do own it 100%, as you do not trust banks, so a loan for that would have been unpossible for you. Once the house has been paid, everything you put into it will be upgrades and they are almost worthless in resell value after a certain point.

      And I hope you know what a leaking roof costs. What a new watre heater costs and what a new elevator costs when they break. Living in an appartment shares those costs, but does not mean they do not exist. Nice if that comes at the same time the car breaks.

      Oh, sure you go to family and ask them to solve your issues. If that is the case, I would not worry either. But then I would not be really living from payceckto paycheck.

      Living from paycheck to paycheck is if you have no financial cushion to all back on. And you DO have that.

      --
      Don't fight for your country, if your country does not fight for you.
    60. Re:B.S. by Opportunist · · Score: 0

      Ok, I guess you might want to explain this one, because so far I cannot identify much beneficial the US did for the "third world" lately.

      --
      We used to have a Bill of Rights. Now, with the rights gone, all we have left is the bill.
    61. Re:B.S. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      >The bottom line, is we can't both be in an era where most people are in danger of falling into poverty at any moment and at the same time be in an era where most people have more discretionary income than at any time in history. Given the people I know and the choices I see them make, I am going to stick with: people (at least in the US) who live pay check to pay check mostly live that way because they fully embrace consumerism as a way of life.

      Well, we can, because of the exact thing you mentioned: Consumerism to the point that you're basically a slave to your job.

      That doesn't mean anyone should help you beyond pointing it out and offering education to fix it, though. :)

    62. Re:B.S. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      All Americans are either making minimum wage at minimum or getting welfare which is even more money.

      According to The Center on Budget and Policy Priorities, you're off a bit.

      It says the median TANF grant for a household of 3 is $432. That's less than 14 hours a week at minimum wage, and barely over 25% of the federal poverty line.
      Also, that's TANF. You have to have kids to get that. Most states don't have any other cash assistance program.

      Everyone lives paycheck to paycheck.

      I don't. I have several months of savings, and I'm many months ahead on my mortgage. That despite being a low-paid government worker, income-eligible for SNAP in my state.

    63. Re:B.S. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Off shored all of out manufacturing and working on offshoring our service industries to Asia?

    64. Re:B.S. by AmiMoJo · · Score: 2

      That sounds more like working class. Middle class is a step up, property owning, savings in the bank with a decent retirement to look forward to, lots of disposable income.

      --
      const int one = 65536; (Silvermoon, Texture.cs)
      SJW, n: "Someone I don't like, and by the way I'm a fuckwit" - AC
    65. Re:B.S. by caseih · · Score: 2

      Sure, but it is for me a far easier burden to bear than getting seriously ill in the US seems to be for most people who get, say cancer. To say nothing of end of life health care needs as we all age. I'm completely okay with social contracts. American individualism is admirable, but we're all in this together.

      And as for the tax rate, actually it's probably less than you might think. I'm assuming you live in the US from your comments. When I lived in the US, I was actually quite surprised how large the total tax burden was there. Income tax might be lower in the US than in Canada, but the overall combined tax burden (income plus other forms of taxation, as well as healthcare premiums) seemed just about the same. The result on my personal finances was about the same anyway.

    66. Re:B.S. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      > once-prosperous nation

      Huh. This once-prosperous nation takes in about 1 million immigrants a year despite having tough immigration rules. Sounds to me like you are feeling a bit too entitled to wealth that's not your own.

    67. Re:B.S. by Curunir_wolf · · Score: 3, Insightful

      Ok, I guess you might want to explain this one, because so far I cannot identify much beneficial the US did for the "third world" lately.

      The AC below answered your question partially - offshoring of manufacturing and service industries. Other policies include almost total non-enforcement of hiring of cheap illegal immigrant labor especially by construction and household labor employers, and importing cheaper labor using H1-B and H3-B visas.

      Additionally, the spending to maintain the ever-growing costs to maintain the American Empire overseas, which greatly benefits the elites in the US, while shifting the costs (both blood and treasure) to the lower classes.

      --
      "Somebody has to do something. It's just incredibly pathetic it has to be us."
      --- Jerry Garcia
    68. Re:B.S. by stealth_finger · · Score: 1

      Well if you're going to be like that my last National Insurance payment was £117 (If I was unemployed it would be 0 and I would still be covered for exactly the same). What's your premium? Do you have a deductible, co-pay or any of that shit? After your premiums how much would it cost you to have a baby? 5k? 10? It obviously has to be paid for, nothing is free free. But there was no bill, no after the facts payment schedule, no fighting over if anything is covered. Job or no I can walk into a hospital tomorrow with anything from a cold to cancer and be sorted out no questions asked about my ability to pay. Any worries about getting ill are to the fact of getting ill, nothing more.

      Come on though, hit me with how the US system is the best ever and nothing else is worth considering. This'll be good.

      --
      Wanna buy a shirt?
      https://www.redbubble.com/people/stealthfinger/shop?asc=u
    69. Re:B.S. by DNS-and-BIND · · Score: 1

      Ah yes, victim blaming! Good job there. Speak truth to the powerless! Comfort the comfortable and afflict the afflicted!

      --
      Shutting down free speech with violence isn't fighting fascism. It IS fascism!
    70. Re:B.S. by Archtech · · Score: 0

      Half of India is still shitting in the woods

      Half of California is shitting on the sidewalk. So what?

      https://www.youtube.com/watch?...

      --
      I am sure that there are many other solipsists out there.
    71. Re:B.S. by whitroth · · Score: 1

      Just what I was going to say.

      The original definition of "middle class" was small business owners, and professionals in private practice. It's the current *lie* that middle income - that's around median income - is "middle class.

      If your business isn't paying you a salary, and your income is a paycheck, then you're *not* middle class. I'm in the op 10%, easily... and I know I'm a workin' stiff, and my money comes from my paycheck.

      Adjust for inflation, and compare to your parents or grandparents' income, and you'll be shocked.

    72. Re:B.S. by Rick+Schumann · · Score: 1

      They moved the goalposts.

    73. Re:B.S. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      1. Cite your sources or shut up.
      2. Living paycheck to paycheck doesn't mean things are bad overall. It just means they're living very close to their means. It's stupid to spend all of one's money without saving. But the fact that a lot of people are doing it doesn't make it less stupid. (protip: you don't actually have to buy the brand new iGadget when it comes out, nor do you need to buy a new car, nor do you need a new wardrobe every six months, nor do you need to eat out all the time)

    74. Re: B.S. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Yeah complete bullshit. Middle class is by definition middle class. If you have 3 classes then half of middle class is always above the 50% line and the other half below it.

      All you can claim is that the middle class is richer but their relative wealth position remains the same.

    75. Re:B.S. by LynnwoodRooster · · Score: 1

      So, the UK Government uses no tax money to pay for your health insurance?

      I used to pay about $96/month until Obamacare basically invalidated my policy (not acceptable for new enrollees, grandfathered allowed, but with a 15% typical movement between policy styles, the company shut it down because it would be gone in a few years anyway). I now pay about $380 per month for pretty complete coverage, and it's fixed at that price for 5 years. Unfortunately, by law, I have to pay for psychiatric, pediatric, and ob/gyn services (even though I have no history of mental health issues, I am not a child nor do I have children, and I am not a genetic female), but that's what it costs me.

      I'd be surprised if your insurance cost was only £117 and there aren't additional income from your taxes paid.

      --
      Browsing at +1 - no ACs, I ignore their posts. So refreshing!
    76. Re: B.S. by Type44Q · · Score: 1
      You mean that, like us, they've traded their family farms (and ability to feed themselves) for specialized jobs in the city... along with less space, less sunshine, more pollution and more stress.

      This 'devolution into a termite colony' is anything but progress.

    77. Re:B.S. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      At least 60% of Americans are living paycheck to paycheck.

      With two or three cars per household unlike one car in the 70's.
      Five color television sets, three of which are HD.
      Even more video game consoles.
      Eating steak every weekend, and whatever else they want other nights.
      In a house twice as big as the one they grew up in.
      With indoor plumbing and air conditioning.
      Everyone has a cell phone, if not smart phone.
      That's the American "poor" There are actual poor people, but they're nowhere near even 5% of the population.

    78. Re:B.S. by LynnwoodRooster · · Score: 0

      I know a few people who got cancer in the US - and they did not lose their house, their car, their everything. Payment plans with vastly-reduced costs were worked out, no interest, and ultimately paid off in each case

      Contrary to the typical memes and beliefs, bankruptcy for medical issues is extremely rare: about 4% of all bankruptcies are due to medical costs. Given that 0.3% of households file for bankruptcy each year, and there are 126 million households in the US, that means there are about (126MM * 0.003 * 0.04) 15,000 medical bankruptcies each year in the US. Yes, a large number, but nowhere near the oft-quoted 643,000 annually (which is actually more than the number of bankruptcies filed overall).

      --
      Browsing at +1 - no ACs, I ignore their posts. So refreshing!
    79. Re:B.S. by Gavagai80 · · Score: 1

      60% of Americans are living paycheck to paycheck because (for the most part) they're trained to be utterly irresponsible consumers with lavish lifestyles.

      --
      This space intentionally left blank
    80. Re:B.S. by Gavagai80 · · Score: 1, Informative

      Middle class is a step up, property owning, savings in the bank with a decent retirement to look forward to, lots of disposable income.

      That's the British definition of middle class. The American definition of middle class is anybody with a roof over their head and less than 3 airplanes in their garage/hanger. And yet we also constantly say the middle class is struggling to make ends meet, and demand that our politicians fight for the middle class.

      There is no working class in America -- it's poor, middle, rich with 90% considering themselves to be in the middle. Okay I exaggerated slightly, research shows just 70% claim middle classhood.

      As for the world middle class, if you define middle class as being actually in the middle then it has always been true that half the people are above average.

      --
      This space intentionally left blank
    81. Re:B.S. by Gavagai80 · · Score: 1

      The unemployment rate is not 60%. Nobody is disputing that there are people who have insufficient income to build any savings, we're pointing out that the percentage of Americans who are genuinely that poor is about 13% (the poverty rate -- that's what it's designed to measure, and while it's inaccurate for some coastal cities it's largely correctish).

      --
      This space intentionally left blank
    82. Re:B.S. by tlhIngan · · Score: 1

      Actually, the percentage is higher, but it also includes a shockingly high percentage of people in the upper-middle class. Most people are inept at handling their own finances, and that's partially to blame on our education system. We don't teach our young how to live on their own...it should be a requirement for HS graduation.

      That's what Home Economics class is for in high school. Not sure if your school made it mandatory or not, but its sole purpose is to prepare yourself with basic "adulting" (as it's called today) skills like how to use a kitchen and cook something, how to handle basic tasks like sewing and such, etc. And the basics of money.

      The problem is illiteracy - too many people are functionally illiterate, and too many people can't do basic arithmetic. Subsequently, too many people are financially illiterate and cannot handle basic financial transactions. Or even calculate change given a total and money. This is what perpetuates many financial scams (not just the tax scams, but investment scams and all sorts of "get rich quick": schemes).

      Even worse, we celebrate the fact that we intentionally are deficient in basic skills. We distrust people who know a bit more, even though knowledge is easy to obtain. Even if it's a basic skill.

      And that's what's really wrong with the US - we've developed the attitude that intelligence is bad - to know stuff is bad.

    83. Re:B.S. by dasunt · · Score: 1

      Then, here is me using top of the line smart phone sales numbers to show that a good portion of those supposedly living pay check to pay check are still possessed of a considerable amount of disposable income.

      Anecdotally, I know several people near or below the poverty line who have iPhones - often the latest ones.

      IDK, perhaps my environment is the exception, perhaps Apply's marketing is just that good, or perhaps the price of an iPhone is enough to make it the one affordable luxury item that people can have to fake wealth.

      (OTOH, I do know well-off people with iPhones, and I know several poor people who do not have any cell phones.)

    84. Re:B.S. by dcw3 · · Score: 2

      Yes, I had "Boys Home Economics" around 8th grade in junior high...some 45 years ago. It was an elective, that taught cooking, laundry and sewing. Nothing about balancing a checkbook, or understanding credit. My daughter didn't get anything like it when she graduated in '09, and that was from what is known to be the best public school system in VA, so she learned from us. But from what I'm reading, the rate of functional illiteracy in the US is ~20%. While that's bad, it doesn't explain why ~80% of people are living paycheck to paycheck.

      --
      Just another day in Paradise
    85. Re:B.S. by adrn01 · · Score: 1

      From the study, it appears that they set their definition of 'not poor' to support the desired conclusion. "We make these claims based on a classification of households into those in extreme poverty (households spending below $1.90 per person per day) and those in the middle class (households spending $11-110 per day per person in 2011 purchasing power parity, or PPP). Two other groups round out our classification: vulnerable households fall between those in poverty and the middle class; and those who are at the top of the distribution who are classified as 'rich.' " $11 per day is middle class??

    86. Re:B.S. by stealth_finger · · Score: 1

      I'd be surprised if your insurance cost was only £117 and there aren't additional income from your taxes paid.

      That's why it's called National Insurance and it goes a long way when literally every tax payer is paying in but I honestly wouldn't know how much if any additional tax money goes into it. It's true the current government are doing everything they can to erode and privatise the whole show but even with all that it's still going strong enough to do its job.

      --
      Wanna buy a shirt?
      https://www.redbubble.com/people/stealthfinger/shop?asc=u
    87. Re:B.S. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      "So what you're saying is EVERY job "

      Hallmark of the retard.

    88. Re:B.S. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      This is gonna sound like a bit of a creepy hit piece, I believe it rsilvergun stated in a previous thread that cheap Chinese goods were the only thing keeping him afloat financially.

      That comment stuck with me.

      My response is the same: this is a tech site, and you likely have a tech-related job, which likely pays at least OK. If you're having financial hardships, take a step back and look at YOUR spending, probably with the assistance of a professional.

      Unless you have crazy medical expenses or something atypical, the problem is you.

    89. Re:B.S. by commodore64_love · · Score: 2

      £117 seems too low. Columbia University says 4.5% of income goes to UK Government healthcare. That's 2600 pounds per month and 31,200 per year. That's really all you earn?

      - My income is 140,000 dollars, so I'd be paying $6300 per year for UK Government healthcare. In contrast my PRIVATE insurance is much less.(about half)

      I'll stick with private

      Thanks :-)

      --
      "I disapprove of what you say, but I will defend to the death your right to say it." - historian Evelyn Beatrice Hall
    90. Re: B.S. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Letâ(TM)s be real, here. Indians do need to shit in the fields, or in the woods.
      They have designated shitting streets.

    91. Re:B.S. by mrclevesque · · Score: 1

      Yeah their citizens can become captive to corporations who can simply leave any time for a poorer area and higher profits leaving everyone without a job and a local government no longer able to supply services.

    92. Re:B.S. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      I love how HMOs managed to double-dip, but people objected to a single-payer system so the HMOs were able to cut the bill how they saw fit. They needed their cut too, like the banks who were "too big to fail" -- ah, corporate welfare.

    93. Re:B.S. by mrclevesque · · Score: 1

      "but they seem to lack self control. I'm not sure that can be taught."

      It can. In other words I think responsibility becomes a matter of public policy when problems are perpetuated over many generations.

      I agree with the rest of your comment.

    94. Re:B.S. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Nobody is living on a full purse, except the 1% who has the other half of everybody else's purse. Yeah, I know it's more complex than that.

    95. Re:B.S. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Americans have a different definition of "middle class". In most countries, middle class means slightly wealthy. In the US, middle class means living paycheck to paycheck.

      There are also a large number of unemployed in the US.

    96. Re:B.S. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Roughly 70% of Americans live in single-family houses. This is similar to Macedonia (73%), Croatia (71%), Slovenia (65%), Serbia (64%), Hungary (62%), Romania (62%) and Norway (60%). Aside from Scandinavia, the areas in Europe where single-family homes are the most common are rural and poor. You can buy a house in a rural or semi-rural place for a pittance, most people just don't want to. Especially the younger generations *choose* to live in cities because there are more opportunities there, and the housing stock there will be flats. If they have kids, they may move into a suburb with semi-detached housing. There isn't nearly as much "status" in owning a detached home as there is in the US.

    97. Re:B.S. by WindowsStar · · Score: 1

      @rsilvergun It think that is optimistic everyone I know is living paycheck to paycheck but that doesn't cover it all so parking, tolls, food and gas goes on the credit card. This has become the norm now-a-days. Taxes keep going up, utilities go up, insurances all go up, but the pay has stayed the same for years. So paycheck to paycheck with credit card debt (50K to 180K). Yikes! welcome to middle class.

    98. Re:B.S. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      So a smartphone is discretionary. For say Uber drivers. computers and smartphone in this age are a necessity like it or not. Far more than a care which also if you do not have you are greatly restricted in income. I suppose owning a place to live is discretionary too.

    99. Re:B.S. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      That's San Francisco (which doesn't surprise me, that place is filthy), not California.

    100. Re: B.S. by Opportunist · · Score: 1

      You'd prefer working in a sustenance family farm to your current job? Go ahead, what's keeping you from doing it?

      --
      We used to have a Bill of Rights. Now, with the rights gone, all we have left is the bill.
    101. Re:B.S. by stealth_finger · · Score: 1

      £117 seems too low. Columbia University says 4.5% of income goes to UK Government healthcare. That's 2600 pounds per month and 31,200 per year. That's really all you earn?

      - My income is 140,000 dollars, so I'd be paying $6300 per year for UK Government healthcare. In contrast my PRIVATE insurance is much less.(about half)

      I'll stick with private

      Thanks :-)

      Pfft. I wish I got that much. Wages are really shit here but the cost of living isn't as bad so it levels out a bit but its still shitty. Anyway, it's good that your sorted out but still, even though your premiums may turn out less at the top end (isn't it curious the more people earn the less they are willing to pay in?) what kind of bills are you going to come out with should you need to use it?

      --
      Wanna buy a shirt?
      https://www.redbubble.com/people/stealthfinger/shop?asc=u
    102. Re:B.S. by tigersha · · Score: 1

      Gave up all the factory jobs that sustained the middle class and sent it to the other countries so that their middle class grows. It was definitely beneficial to the poor countries.

      There are zillions of people in China whose parents were dirt poor whose kids are now doing the jobs your parents were doing.

      --
      The dangers of excessive individualism are nothing compared to the oppressiveness of excessive collectivism
    103. Re:B.S. by Kokuyo · · Score: 1

      By law we keep receiving our salary if we get sick. The first three days are on the employer and after that, there's an insurance policy at work.

      Yes, we pay these policies out of our salaries, at least partially. Yes, we pay the rest because employers are capable of math, too, and will structure prices of their products accordingly.

      Switzerland is having issues with pensions, though I personally believe it's much hyped up to get the voters into the politicians' corners. We could easily afford much more socialism without it truly hurting IMO.

    104. Re:B.S. by Kokuyo · · Score: 1

      No income is more or less completely inconceivable to me.

      If I lose my job, I will get paid 80% of my current salary for a year and a half.

      If I become an invalid, I will receive money.

      If I get sick, I cannot just be fired.

      There are two adults with above average intelligence in my household and with the time frames we are given to reorient ourselves, I do not fear many situations, especially not for reasons of finances.

      And before I starve, I will ask friends and family because I am also there for friends and family should they need me. It's that simple.

      Loans from banks don't have vastly better interest rates than my credit cards. Also my credit cards are ready to give me money immediately, whereas with banks I'd have to go do some begging.

      The most expensive car, the current one, I have ever bought cost me 16k Swiss Francs.

      I'm good. Be scared if you want. I decided not to be. Not anymore.

    105. Re:B.S. by mjwx · · Score: 1

      At least 60% of Americans are living paycheck to paycheck. That's not middle class and it's certainly not "no longer at risk of poverty".

      How many of those are in that position because they put everything onto credit. Not just the house and car, which are big costs and necessities (even many places in Europe, it's difficult to live without a car)?

      Holiday on credit, shopping on credit, food on credit and no worries(TM) until you get a big bill at the end of the month.

      What Thatcher should have said was "the problem with using other people's money is that eventually they'll want it back... and some".

      --
      Calling someone a "hater" only means you can not rationally rebut their argument.
    106. Re:B.S. by Krishnoid · · Score: 1

      This way they can keep the doctor away, and minimize their healthcare costs at the same time. If they had an Android? They'd probably be walking around with one arm after pissing off a wookie.

    107. Re:B.S. by strikethree · · Score: 1

      Regarding smart phone sales: Americans are not buying those phones outright, they are making payments over time.

      Think about that for a minute. The average American can not afford to buy a $1,000 item outright. They have to finance it, which increases the total cost of that $1,000 item by quite a bit.

      How much is the typical deductible for insurance? It varies from policy to policy, but it would seem that paying the deductible in case the insurance was needed would put the average American up against the wall financially. God forbid anyone had two emergencies happen in the same month.

      --
      "Someone needs to talk to the tree of liberty about its ghoulish drinking problem." by ohnocitizen
    108. Re:B.S. by mrclevesque · · Score: 1

      "In other words I think responsibility becomes a matter of public policy when problems are perpetuated over many generations"

      In the sense that when a dysfunctional behavior is taught over many generations, from parent to child, then its a good idea to not only consider the individual or familial levels, but to also consider larger frames (community, culture, systemics, etc).

  2. That's right you ungrateful SOBs by volodymyrbiryuk · · Score: 4, Insightful

    Be happy with the breadcrumbs the multinational corporations and the 1% throws at you. Now get back to work.

    --
    sudo rm -r -f --no-preserve-root /
    1. Re:That's right you ungrateful SOBs by TuringTest · · Score: 5, Interesting

      Apparently, human society has a tendency to concentrate resources and influence following a power law distribution, and there's not much that can be done about that.

      What matters is how steep is the curve. There will always be some with way more resources than they can use; but there should be mechanisms to bring part of those concentrated resources back to those who created them.

      If people in the long tail don't have enough resources to have at least an acceptable standard of living, unrest appears, and they will revolt and coordinate long enough to remove those at the peak; a position which then will be occupied by a new batch of privileged.

      --
      Singularity: a belief in the "God" idea with the "demiurge" relation inverted.
    2. Re:That's right you ungrateful SOBs by dcw3 · · Score: 1

      Yeah, because the average household income just hit a record high, and the economy is doing so poorly that people can't afford cars, refrigerators, cell phones, 60" TVs, computers,....oh, wait.

      --
      Just another day in Paradise
    3. Re:That's right you ungrateful SOBs by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Average doesn't mean what you think it means. A million people earning a dollar a and one person earning a milliard still gets you an average income of 1001 dollar per person, but it's clearly bunk. This is why an average without a standard deviation is meaningless. You can do better with the median, that's the income of the guy right in the middle of the entire distribution.

      Anyway, try and earn a living without the use of a car in the US. So your expenditures on your (first and only) car probably shouldn't count as discretionary, at least in the US outside of metro areas with good public transport. As for the rest, if it's financed with debt, we open up another can of worms.

    4. Re:That's right you ungrateful SOBs by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Be happy with the breadcrumbs the multinational corporations and the 1% throws at you. Now get back to work.

      But if I vote for a Democrat, I'll get bigger crumbs!

      Of course, then I'll be a shackled serf, dependent on government handouts to survive, unable to take care of myself.

      But hey, I'll vote Democrat.

      That model worked out so well for all the inner city residents of Detroit and Baltimore and Chicago!

    5. Re:That's right you ungrateful SOBs by Opportunist · · Score: 1

      Well, no, they cannot. They can buy them and go deeper into debt, but affording them, they can not.

      --
      We used to have a Bill of Rights. Now, with the rights gone, all we have left is the bill.
    6. Re:That's right you ungrateful SOBs by Opportunist · · Score: 1

      So the difference to a Republican government is essentially only that under a Democrat government you actually do get government handouts and get to survive?

      --
      We used to have a Bill of Rights. Now, with the rights gone, all we have left is the bill.
    7. Re:That's right you ungrateful SOBs by mpercy · · Score: 1

      U.S. median is $57,617 per Census.gov (Median income in 2016 inflation-adjusted dollars).

    8. Re:That's right you ungrateful SOBs by cascadingstylesheet · · Score: 1

      Be happy with the breadcrumbs the multinational corporations and the 1% throws at you. Now get back to work.

      From Brookings? That's a lefty outfit, last I knew.

    9. Re:That's right you ungrateful SOBs by tsqr · · Score: 0

      A million people earning a dollar a and one person earning a milliard still gets you an average income of 1001 dollar per person, but it's clearly bunk.

      Damn, no wonder you're poverty-stricken. (1,000,000 * 1 + 1 * 1,000,000)/2 = 2, not 1001.

    10. Re:That's right you ungrateful SOBs by dcw3 · · Score: 1

      Well, then yes they can. There's nothing wrong with being in debt, as long as you can afford to pay it back, but I'm guessing that you don't think that's the case.
      https://www.cnsnews.com/news/a...

      Household income, even adjusted for inflation, has been rising ever since 2011 (median since 2010, with a dip in 2016), to a record $62,175.
      https://seekingalpha.com/artic...

      Obviously, I'm not claiming everything is all rosy. We clearly need to do something about college costs as well as the exorbitant cost of healthcare.

      --
      Just another day in Paradise
    11. Re:That's right you ungrateful SOBs by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      And what's the cost of living? If a car costs $10k a year in running costs, something like that for the house, utilities, the various taxes, then the mortgage, car debt, student loan debt, credit card debt, other debts, and so on, what do you have left? How about food and clothing? In other words, what's the buying power of that $58k/yr, and how much of that is discretionary? Apparently in a place like DC, $100k/yr doesn't even break even.

    12. Re:That's right you ungrateful SOBs by astrofurter · · Score: 2

      leftist = rightist = centrist = authoritarian financialist

    13. Re:That's right you ungrateful SOBs by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      A million people earning a dollar a and one person earning a milliard still gets you an average income of 1001 dollar per person, but it's clearly bunk.

      Damn, no wonder you're poverty-stricken. (1,000,000 * 1 + 1 * 1,000,000)/2 = 2, not 1001.

      Too bad for your argument that the GP said a milliard, not a million (that's the same thing Americans call a billion, i.e. 1,000,000,000). And there are 1.000.001 people to take the average, not 2.

    14. Re:That's right you ungrateful SOBs by tsqr · · Score: 1

      Shanked that equation -- denominator should be 1,000,001. But the answer's still 2.

    15. Re:That's right you ungrateful SOBs by tsqr · · Score: 1

      A million people earning a dollar a and one person earning a milliard still gets you an average income of 1001 dollar per person, but it's clearly bunk.

      Damn, no wonder you're poverty-stricken. (1,000,000 * 1 + 1 * 1,000,000)/2 = 2, not 1001.

      Too bad for your argument that the GP said a milliard, not a million (that's the same thing Americans call a billion, i.e. 1,000,000,000). And there are 1.000.001 people to take the average, not 2.

      Yeah, I screwed up on the denominator, but the answer is still 2, if you'll pardon my ignorance of obscure British notation.

    16. Re:That's right you ungrateful SOBs by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      2 errors in a row, you mean.
      Check your maths again:

      1,000,000,000 * 1 + 1 * 1,000,000 = 1,001,000,000

      1,001,000,000 / 1,000,001 = 1000.999 (~= 1001, not 2.)

    17. Re:That's right you ungrateful SOBs by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Also, (1,000,000 * 1 + 1 * 1,000,000)/2 = 1,000,000, not 2.

    18. Re:That's right you ungrateful SOBs by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      > If people in the long tail don't have enough resources to have at least an acceptable standard of living, unrest appears, and they will revolt and coordinate long enough to remove those at the peak; a position which then will be occupied by a new batch of privileged.

      Well put. Notice though that if they are correct, the likelyhood of this is the lowest it's ever been. Unless major economic problems happen eventually. *coughbal warming*

    19. Re:That's right you ungrateful SOBs by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Be happy with the breadcrumbs the multinational corporations and the 1% throws at you. Now get back to work.

      Only deranged liberals denounce getting more of their own money back in their pay check and paying less for products, and only when Republicans are in office.

      Now get back to hating yourself, your country, and your fellow man.

    20. Re:That's right you ungrateful SOBs by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Maybe, but my crapsurance is 7 grand a year with a 6500 deductible. Thank goodness I am healthy as I would be paying 13,500 a year for healthcare. As it is I pay 7 grand. I wonder what someone earning 57K with a family would pay for healthcare? I know my plan would up the deductible to 12K or more. I imagine the premium would double too. So you could easily spend 1/2 your income on premiums/deductibles.

    21. Re:That's right you ungrateful SOBs by burtosis · · Score: 2

      If people in the long tail don't have enough resources to have at least an acceptable standard of living, unrest appears, and they will revolt and coordinate long enough to remove those at the peak; a position which then will be occupied by a new batch of privileged.

      Robotics, weak AI, and automation (including millitary hardware) are falling under control of the 0.01% and are on track to completely eliminate this pesky problem within 100 years or so. Then for the first time ever there will be no need for plebs and no problem putting down uprisings the vast majority participate in.

    22. Re:That's right you ungrateful SOBs by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Notice though that if they are correct, the likelyhood of this is the lowest it's ever been.

      Wait till next time the stupids at the top think they can profit from large-scale war, and throw the peasants against each other. They do it periodically.

    23. Re:That's right you ungrateful SOBs by Opportunist · · Score: 1

      But people can't pay it back, that's the whole point. Yes, not everyone, but increasing numbers of people are in WAY over their head. With zero chance to ever recover.

      --
      We used to have a Bill of Rights. Now, with the rights gone, all we have left is the bill.
    24. Re:That's right you ungrateful SOBs by dcw3 · · Score: 1

      I'm doubtful that it's "increasing numbers". Can you back it up with evidence?

      --
      Just another day in Paradise
    25. Re:That's right you ungrateful SOBs by mesterha · · Score: 1

      If people in the long tail don't have enough resources to have at least an acceptable standard of living, unrest appears, and they will revolt and coordinate long enough to remove those at the peak; a position which then will be occupied by a new batch of privileged.

      It could be worse; it could be exponential. Also I'm not sure what you're graphing here. I assume the rich would be on the long tail.

      I'm also curious as to claims that power laws are inevitable. Do you have a reasonable theory/model to back that up?

      --

      Chris Mesterharm
    26. Re:That's right you ungrateful SOBs by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Ummm, no. The answer is 1,001. You are very bad at basic math.

    27. Re:That's right you ungrateful SOBs by TuringTest · · Score: 2

      The mathematical law that shows why wealth flows to the 1%

      I don't know if it's inevitable, but it's an observed phenomenon that wealth distribution follows a poder law, and it makes sense that it might be so from how money flows towards those who already have it.

      A power law distribution is a common mathematical outcome in dynamic systems where the one with a small initial advantage is in a better position to outperform the rest in next competitions, so the advantage is cumulative. This has entered common knowledge as the proverb "money begets money".

      --
      Singularity: a belief in the "God" idea with the "demiurge" relation inverted.
    28. Re:That's right you ungrateful SOBs by mesterha · · Score: 1

      Thanks for the link. I think power laws are interesting for the scale invariance and that might be significant for physics. It would be interesting if this was important for wealth, but it's not the real problem. Any economic system with strong inequality is probably bad; however, it seems hard to avoid with a "free" market. A simple random model with Gaussian returns will give large (exponential tail) inequality. This is a model with no intelligence, just random guessing and unsurprisingly some people get lucky and dominate. I'm sure things get worse when factoring the investment advantages of being rich. This might also explain the heavy tails. As random variables get correlated, the central limit theorem no longer applies and the tails get heavy. Intuitively, I would think an exponential tail is worse, but I'm not sure...

      --

      Chris Mesterharm
  3. It depends on how your government is spending... by Halueth · · Score: 1

    [quote]They rely on public safety nets to help them in sickness, unemployment or old age. But they resist efforts of governments to impose taxes to pay the bills.[/quote] In my country (The Netherlands), the effective tax pressure is around 78% (meaning for every euro I make, I make 0,22 cents for myself and the rest gets taken by the government). More taxes will force people into the black economy or crime (you get more money by robbing people since the law enforcement is suffering under austerity measures, so there's a 1,8% chance of getting caught). It's not the reluctance for paying for services like healthcare etc, but the government is spending more and more on things which have nothing to do with those like immigration (costing 32k an immigrant per year on benefits alone; we take in 100k a year). But also the goverenment imposing tax relief on multinational etc, also nothing to do with services.

  4. Resistance by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    They look to their governments to provide affordable housing, education, and universal health care. They rely on public safety nets to help them in sickness, unemployment or old age.

    Middle class is wealthy enough to pay for the unemployment insurances they get from their professional associations and unions. Who does like to use the social services that require you to run your every grocery receipt through them every month and announce every day you're unemployed and did try to get a job that day?

    But they resist efforts of governments to impose taxes to pay the bills.

    Depending of the country. Policy makers have themselves to blame if they waste so much of the taxes on non-sense that the people lose their confidence on their governments.

    This complicates the politics of middle-class societies, so they range from autocratic to liberal democracies. Many advanced and middle-income countries today are struggling to find a set of politics that can satisfy a broad middle-class majority.

    That's why many rely on multi-party systems and reduce the power of the presidents or royals over time in everyday politics.

    The tipping point in the world today offers opportunities for business but complications for policymakers.

    Privatization of the public services indeed offers opportunities to violate the rights of your fellow citizens, and complications to the policymakers as they try to hide their ill-gained wealth from the public scrutiny while they adjust the terms of the social contract that keeps the riots away from the streets.

  5. Huh... by SharpFang · · Score: 2

    so that boils down to "50% of people earns more than average"?

    --
    45 5F E1 04 22 CA 29 C4 93 3F 95 05 2B 79 2A B2
    1. Re:Huh... by Freischutz · · Score: 5, Informative

      so that boils down to "50% of people earns more than average"?

      No, they just lowered the definition of ‘middle class’.

    2. Re:Huh... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Again. When first defined, middle-class where those who had a fabric, trade company or similar and, despite not being aristocrats, where rich.

      In a few decades, middle class will be being able to eat twice a day. And our politics will be who managed to get us all into 'high class' because we still will have a TV.

    3. Re:Huh... by dcw3 · · Score: 1

      so that boils down to "50% of people earns more than average"?

      No, they just lowered the definition of ‘middle class’.

      They who? There are a variety of definitions. One of the more common is that it's the middle fifth percentile, so people in the 40-60th. Pew Research claims it's those earning 2/3 to 2x the national average household income for their family size. Others include assets because many families who don't have much income have a lot of assets...think retirees. Where you live also makes a huge difference. Average household income in my county is in the six digits...it's hard for people to live on $100k/yr here. Take that to most other locations in the country, and you'd be pretty comfortable.

      --
      Just another day in Paradise
    4. Re:Huh... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Not even close.

      We live in a world where the rich are infinitely richer than the poor are poor, so the average income is much higher than the median. In most developed countries, 75% of workers earn less than the average salary (and that's not counting capital-based revenues, which skew the average even further).

      In this article, they count "middle-class" people as people who earn $11-$110/day/person in Purchasing Power Parity. That means people who, if they lived in America, would spend between $11 and $110 every day to survive.

      Notice how that statistic could be interpreted differently. For example, it could also mean that life has gotten more expensive in America, so that its living conditions are now closer to a third-world country's on average.

      But I'm sure it's not that. I'm sure we're all getting richer every day. The World Bank said it, so it must be true.

    5. Re:Huh... by Opportunist · · Score: 1

      Earning more or even twice the average household income is fairly easy if you're not unemployed or working a "want fries with this" job, because the wages are SO low that these people have to work two or three jobs just to get by. If you actually have one job that lets you live at a level that doesn't require you to ponder how to scrape together the money for some food when the 20th rolls around this month, congrats, you're middle class.

      --
      We used to have a Bill of Rights. Now, with the rights gone, all we have left is the bill.
    6. Re:Huh... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      If everyone is middle class, there will be no middle class.

    7. Re:Huh... by DalM · · Score: 1

      That's actually possible. Mean does not mean half. Consider this:

      Find the average for the following numbers:
      0, 100, 100, 100, 100

      Four of those 5 numbers are "above the mean".

      That's how math works.

    8. Re:Huh... by sabbede · · Score: 1
      It could mean things are getting more expensive in America, but doesn't. Inflation has been very low.

      Also, I'm pretty sure that the percent of a population earning less than the average wage can never be greater than 50%.

    9. Re:Huh... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Yeah. Being in a "not-starving-to-death" state now grants you middle class status it seems. Considering that it puts the poor in the "soon-to-be-dead-by-starvation" social class, I guess we finally solved the poverty problem in the World.

    10. Re:Huh... by dcw3 · · Score: 1

      There you have it...another opinion. Everyone has one on what it means to be middle class.

      --
      Just another day in Paradise
    11. Re:Huh... by astrofurter · · Score: 1

      If you believe real inflation has been low, I'm got a great deal - just for you! - on some delightful oceanfront property in Phoenix, Arizona. Contact me with your credit card number today!

    12. Re:Huh... by Timothy2.0 · · Score: 1

      So, instead of apologetics, how about pointing out that the statistic is meaningless? If outfits can choose that definition that suits their purposes, then what is actually being measured?

      It's the same shit that you get with literacy rates. Sure, the US claims a 99% literacy rate, but what does that even mean? The OECD found that a solid 50% of Americans can't read at an 8th grade level yet, somehow, 99% of the people are literate..

      Definitions just keep on getting revised to make people feel better about their lives. That way they don't have to actually take any responsibility for their share of the shitty situation they're in.

    13. Re:Huh... by dcw3 · · Score: 1

      What "apologetics"? I think it was pretty damn obvious by my post that the term needs clarification if you want to swing it around. All that said, the vast majority of American households are doing relatively well compared to just a few years ago. We still need to make some big fixes though...tuition & healthcare costs would be near the top of my list, along with infrastructure improvements. Now that we've got median household income to record highs and extremely low unemployment with still very low inflation, and new trade deals with Mexico and Canada, there's not much to dislike about the US economy. A rising tide lifts all boats.

      --
      Just another day in Paradise
    14. Re:Huh... by Tom · · Score: 1

      You will always have a TV. It's a propaganda and population control instrument of such fundamental value that if it didn't exist already, someone would invent it.

      --
      Assorted stuff I do sometimes: Lemuria.org
    15. Re:Huh... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      That's actually possible. Mean does not mean half. Consider this:

      Find the average for the following numbers:
      0, 100, 100, 100, 100

      Four of those 5 numbers are "above the mean".

      That's how math works.

      Hmmm...this might explain the children in Lake Wobegon.

    16. Re:Huh... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      so that boils down to "50% of people earns more than average"?

      No, they just lowered the definition of ‘middle class’.

      Technically, only 49.9999999999% earn more than average.

    17. Re:Huh... by DalM · · Score: 1

      Not really. At Lake Wobegon EVERY kid is above average. That doesn't work. You can have *almost* every kid above average, so long as there is at least one really, really dumb kid to pull down the mean.

    18. Re:Huh... by Opportunist · · Score: 1

      I literally took the same metric Pew Research used. How's that "another opinion"?

      --
      We used to have a Bill of Rights. Now, with the rights gone, all we have left is the bill.
    19. Re:Huh... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1

      You assume that everyone has a boat.

    20. Re:Huh... by dcw3 · · Score: 1

      "If you actually have one job that lets you live at a level that doesn't require you to ponder how to scrape together the money for some food when the 20th rolls around this month, congrats, you're middle class."

      There is your other opinion. It's not related in any way to what Pew said.

      --
      Just another day in Paradise
    21. Re:Huh... by TheSync · · Score: 1

      "If you believe real inflation has been low, I'm got a great deal - just for you! - on some delightful oceanfront property in Phoenix, Arizona."

      Since 1991, the US inflation rate has been under 5%.

      Compare this with 1969-1982 when inflation was over 5% for 12/13 years and over 10% for 4/13 years.

    22. Re: Huh... by astrofurter · · Score: 1

      Great!! We have a winner here, a real winner! Just send me your credit card number, date of birth, and your mother's maiden name. We'll be partying on the beach in Phoenix tonight, my friend!

    23. Re: Huh... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      I'm in Western Europe and I believe too the inflation is low. 110% of the problem is housing. Housing should be a way of putting a roof above your head not an investment. I don't feel much very motivated to work knowing that I will never be able to own.

    24. Re:Huh... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      working class: farmers and factory workers, conscript soldiers
      middle class: shopkeepers, self-emp;oyed, government-employed, clergy, army lower officers
      capitalist class: managers, shareholders
      upper class: politicians and nobility, directors of multinationals, higher army officesrs, bishops

      What is the Pope's salary anyway?

    25. Re:Huh... by Opportunist · · Score: 1

      Take a minimum paying job, double it, then calculate how far you'd get in your month before the money is up. I arrive at the 20th.

      --
      We used to have a Bill of Rights. Now, with the rights gone, all we have left is the bill.
    26. Re:Huh... by sabbede · · Score: 1
      The "healthy" rate of core inflation (what the Fed aims for) is about 2%. So far this year, we're at 1.8%. Last two years were 2.1%.

      Here's a table for you. https://www.thebalance.com/u-s...

    27. Re:Huh... by sabbede · · Score: 1

      Oops, that wasn't for you, it was for astroturfer.

  6. Thank you capitalism! by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    No thanks to socialism.

  7. And 75% of children are above average by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    When over half of the world are middle class, that just means that middle class will be redefined to mean more than it has in the past.

  8. Only because of inflation by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Average US income is $57617. If the USA wasn't so overinflated (print money, tax cuts to rich people, load up debt, debt repaid by poor people due to tax cut)....

    1. Re:Only because of inflation by allcoolnameswheretak · · Score: 3, Informative

      Also that average is strongly skewed upward due to a very small minority of people in the US being obscenely rich. If you'd perform some statistical cleanup of those outliers, you'd probably get closer to an average US income of ordinary citizens of around 44k.

    2. Re:Only because of inflation by parkinglot777 · · Score: 1

      Average US income is $57617. If the USA wasn't so overinflated (print money, tax cuts to rich people, load up debt, debt repaid by poor people due to tax cut)....

      And the top 1% earn at least 300x times compared to the next tier down, so average/mean is a really bad indicator here. They should have used "mode" instead.

    3. Re:Only because of inflation by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1

      The median income (household) is over $62k as of July. If you think average might be skewed, the median should account for a huge skew at one end.

    4. Re:Only because of inflation by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      They should have used "mode" instead.

      You mean median. Mode would not count the 44000 and 44001 as the same, the most commonly repeated salary may not be anywhere near the 50% mark which is what you're really interested in. Combined with deviation.

    5. Re:Only because of inflation by sycodon · · Score: 0

      That the top 1% earn at least 300x times compared to the next tier down is completely and utter irrelevant, unless you are living where those people live. Then they price you out of a home.

      $57k is a pretty fucking decent income in 80% of America. You can get a home, a couple of cars and most other trappings of the Middle Class lifestyle.

      The fact that Zukerberg has a gazillion has no impact on you. In fact, uif you are Facebook employee, that's a good thing. His success is your success.

      --
      When Fascism comes to America, it will call itself Anti-Fascism, and tell you to give up your guns.
    6. Re:Only because of inflation by sycodon · · Score: 0, Offtopic

      No matter how you calculate it, if you are in the middle class in America, or most other Western countries, you are in the top 1% of the world.

      --
      When Fascism comes to America, it will call itself Anti-Fascism, and tell you to give up your guns.
    7. Re:Only because of inflation by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Well, that depends, is that 57K a median or a mean? If it's a median, it's already appropriately dealt with the outliers.

    8. Re:Only because of inflation by LynnwoodRooster · · Score: 2, Informative

      The top 1% earn about $1.5 million on average; the top 25% average about $139,000. And that is several tiers down...

      The median and mean household income is also quite close, being around $75,000 and $72,000 respectively.

      I know it's popular to push a "hate the rich" meme on many places, but the data does not support the huge income disparity so often claimed. Median and mean incomes are close together, income disparity from the top 1% down to the bottom 50% is about 80 (which is significantly less than your estimate of 300 from the top 1% to the next tier, which would be top 5%), and in general wages are up an average of 4% annually for the last 18 months or so.

      --
      Browsing at +1 - no ACs, I ignore their posts. So refreshing!
    9. Re:Only because of inflation by parkinglot777 · · Score: 1

      Hmm... Sorry that I exaggerated the number. No, it is not my intention to say about "hate the rich" because that is not on the topic we are talking about here. My intention is about the number used as average.

      Anyway, the statistics you gave still does not invalidate what I said about using mode as a better indicator instead of mean.

    10. Re:Only because of inflation by mikael · · Score: 3, Informative
      --
      Vintage computer adverts: http://www.vintageadbrowser.com/computers-and-software-ads
    11. Re:Only because of inflation by LynnwoodRooster · · Score: 2

      Do you really mean mode? Are you sure sure you do not mean the median? Mode should be irrelevant here, it should be the median and the mean. And when the two are closely aligned, it means your population probably had a traditional Gaussian distribution. - which is what we have. It is not skewed by a few rich OR poor people, but that most of the people (67% in a traditional distribution) make around the median AND mean income levels - meaning, middle class.

      --
      Browsing at +1 - no ACs, I ignore their posts. So refreshing!
    12. Re:Only because of inflation by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      >> perform some statistical cleanup of those outliers
      Reported outliers.

      I mean, if I was obscenely rich you can be sure I'd take measures against the state being fully aware of all my wealth/flows.

    13. Re:Only because of inflation by Archtech · · Score: 1

      Bill Gates walks into a working-class bar.

      Instantly everyone in the bar is a billionaire. On average.

      --
      I am sure that there are many other solipsists out there.
    14. Re:Only because of inflation by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      The median and mean household income is also quite close, being around $75,000 and $72,000 respectively.

      The fact that median income is higher than the mean income that you cite should have made you question your numbers. The numbers you are comparing are from different years and one is a gross number adjusted from inflation. In other words you are comparing apples with oranges to support your whatever political views. If you want numbers that are comparable try this:

      https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Median_income_per_household_member

      In above you'll find that median income is half of the mean.

    15. Re:Only because of inflation by LynnwoodRooster · · Score: 1
      Check the source for the Wiki data:

      "US Census Bureau, median household income by member of household". Archived from the original on 2006-05-28. Retrieved 2006-07-07.

      Yep, 2006. And somehow my use of 2011 to 2014 data is bad, but data from nearly a decade earlier is good?

      --
      Browsing at +1 - no ACs, I ignore their posts. So refreshing!
    16. Re:Only because of inflation by parkinglot777 · · Score: 1

      Sorry for late reply because I was very busy. Anyway, yes it is the mode you are talking about and it is not irrelevant. In this case, the "point" is a "range" of incomes. The interval could start from small (e.g. $2k or lower). If the range still produce too many number of data, then increase the interval to be a bit bigger until you get useful info from it.

      I believe that your PDF data came from this one. Anyway, it is similar data, so I just wanted to point out.

      Now speaking of the meaning of mean and median are closely aligned would meant the data has a good distribution in the middle, which I agree. However, the data you presented doesn't seem to show that mean and median are align.

      Let's talk about the year 2015 data (other years seem to show the similar trend). The PDF (going to use yours on page 2) shows that, the total number of returns is 141,204,625. The total AGI is $10,142,620,000,000. Thus, we can calculate the mean which is around $71,829 per return. The median (income split point) is $39,275. That's way off for aligning. However, the AGI average should be lower because of joint filing. Unfortunately, there is no data of how many are filed joint in the PDF, so I will make an education guess using some raw data.

      The U.S. population in the 2015 is 321,418,820. Total population age 18 and above is 247,773,709. Assuming that all of those who are above 18 file tax returns (I'm generous). Thus, the new mean should be around $40,935.

      Even though the new mean compared to the median isn't that bad, it still shows the trend that income per person is lower than the mean. Thus, to me, mode is a better indicator. It is only how you use mode to analyze the data. It is acceptable to use range for mode in analysis. That's what I wanted to say.

  9. Laffernomics in the water supply by epine · · Score: 2

    So September 2018 marks a global tipping point.

    Not only infinitely differentiable—and smooth, smooth, smooth like a baby's bottom—but also infinitely and indefinitely monotonic in instantaneous prospect.

    And to think that another perspective is that the whole fragile edifice hangs by the thread of one stupid trade war.

    Or a pandemic.

    Or a rising tide.

  10. Resist increase in taxes by sad_ · · Score: 1

    "The middle class also puts pressure on governments to perform better. They look to their governments to provide affordable housing, education, and universal health care. They rely on public safety nets to help them in sickness, unemployment or old age. But they resist efforts of governments to impose taxes to pay the bills."

    I would say - rightly so.

    Most governments probably waste a great deal of money on whatever (inefficiency, corruption, wrong policies/investments, ...).
    Instead of asking the people to give more, they could perhaps clean ship first (never gonna happen).

    --
    On a long enough timeline, the survival rate for everyone drops to zero.
  11. remove BeauHD from /. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    It's this BeauHD retard...he's the reason I don't read Slashdot anymore.
    Fuck you !

    1. Re:remove BeauHD from /. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      It's this BeauHD retard...he's the reason I don't read Slashdot anymore. F--- you !

      If you don't read Slashdot anymore, how are you still here?

      IIRC, if you log in, there's a way to filter stories from certain posters. That's how I filtered the Katz stories (rants). Made an account just for that.

  12. This just in by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    more than 50% of drivers are above average.

  13. Re:It depends on how your government is spending.. by Opportunist · · Score: 1

    The problem here is that you can only solve one of those two problems. If you vote left to avoid squandering money to the corporations, you get to pay for the immigrants. If you vote right to stop funneling money to the traffickers the immigrants pay off, the money will instead be thrown at the corporations.

    Either way, no money for you. One should assume that with all those parties available, at least one would be decent.

    --
    We used to have a Bill of Rights. Now, with the rights gone, all we have left is the bill.
  14. How do you define "Middle Class" by DalM · · Score: 2

    That's not a snarky question. That's the whole crux of the debate.

    Do you define "middle class" as: ... having X amount of assets? ... being able to buy X luxuries? ... having a salary of at least X? ... being X sigma from the mean?

    How you answer that question changes your perception of the growth of the middle class?

    1. Re:How do you define "Middle Class" by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Didn't you read the summary? They define middle class as rich! Enjoy your newfound status as a rich person! Why just today I demanded to join the local country club because I'm rich now. They were laughing so much I'm sure because I didn't even need to apply and I was automatically in. They even sent some nice men in uniforms to take me to my car. Such luxury!

    2. Re:How do you define "Middle Class" by quenda · · Score: 1

      Do you define "middle class" as: ...

      I think they are using the word incorrectly. Class is not the same as wealth.
      Plenty of working class occupations pay more than many middle-class ones.

      Electricians and plumbers are making more than teachers and nurses around here.

    3. Re: How do you define "Middle Class" by DalM · · Score: 1

      Right. That's another way people tend to define "middle class". By occupation.

      There are many more ways, and how you choose to define the term changes your perception of how the world is doing.

    4. Re: How do you define "Middle Class" by quenda · · Score: 1

      Right. That's another way people tend to define "middle class". By occupation.

      For statistical purposes, it works. Class is about your social group, who you identify with. Occupation and education correlate far more than income.
      If you are a tradesman, you are more likely to live in social circles that enjoy beer or spirits more than wine. Football or motor sport more than opera and ballet.

    5. Re: How do you define "Middle Class" by DalM · · Score: 1

      Sure, that works really well and is very useful information if you are in wine or beer sales. How you are defining "middle class" says more about the person doing the defining.

    6. Re: How do you define "Middle Class" by quenda · · Score: 1

      My point is that social class is distinct from economic status, which the article seems to be confusing.
      What are you trying to say it is? Because I cannot see your point.

    7. Re: How do you define "Middle Class" by DalM · · Score: 1

      I'm not trying to say one definition is superior to the other. There are lots of "correct" ways to define it.

      If you are asking about my preferred definition, I would say it's based on needs and cash flow. If a family can meet all of their needs -eg. can afford a safe home, education for the kids, adequate reliable health care, elder care, food, etc. then they are "middle class". If they can't, then they are poor. If they can do all that and have enough left over to invest in assets, then they are rich. When they have enough assets that their cash flow from their assets alone exceeds their expenses, then they are retired.

      I like that definition because it's fixed and doesn't pretend to rely on a dollar salary amount or bell curve people or compare people's values against each other. Everyone on the planet should be "middle class" by my preferred definition.

    8. Re: How do you define "Middle Class" by quenda · · Score: 1

      I think this must be a cultural/nation difference in concept of class.

      You are equating class with income and assets. Are you American? Here it means social class., which is related, but not the same. ... actually, a quick google tells me :

      Economists and pollsters in the United States generally define "working class" adults as those lacking a college degree,[1] rather than by occupation or income. Many members of the working class, as defined by academic models, are often identified in the vernacular as being middle-class, there is considerable ambiguity over the term's meaning.

      https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/...

      If a family can meet all of their needs -eg. can afford a safe home, education for the kids, adequate reliable health care, elder care, food, etc. then they are "middle class".

      That would be just about everybody, so what we call working class, you are including in the middle class?
      In other developed countries, even the multi-generational welfare dependent underclass can access all those, they just might choose not to.

    9. Re: How do you define "Middle Class" by quenda · · Score: 1

      p.s. note that the college degree is just a predictor for social class. Or a proxy for statistical purposes. It does not define an individual's class.

    10. Re: How do you define "Middle Class" by DalM · · Score: 1

      You are equating class with income and assets. Are you American?

      I am American and I'm half equating it with assets, not income. I do equate "rich" and "retired" with assets and investments, but not really the middle class or poor. As I said, I personally define middle class and poor based on "needs". Different geographic locations, States, Cities, Nations, cultures, etc. have different income levels necessary to meet one's needs. For example, apartment rent in California is notably higher than Nebraska. If a person in California can't afford rent then they are still poor -by my definition- regardless the fact that they have a higher income than a guy in Nebraska that can easily pay rent.

      Economists and pollsters in the United States generally define "working class" adults as those lacking a college degree,[1] rather than by occupation or income. Many members of the working class, as defined by academic models, are often identified in the vernacular as being middle-class, there is considerable ambiguity over the term's meaning.

      My preferred definition alters that a bit. It's more about if a person *could* afford a college education regardless if they want one or not. I do consider higher education a "need" today. So if a person can't get a college education because they can't afford tuition, then they are poor. You can still be "middle class" even if you don't have a college degree, if you could afford one and just choose that you personally don't want one.

      That would be just about everybody, so what we call working class, you are including in the middle class?
      In other developed countries, even the multi-generational welfare dependent underclass can access all those, they just might choose not to.

      My bar seems pretty low, I agree. More correctly, I want everyone to not be poor. I absolutely do want everyone on the planet to reach my definition of "middle class". That includes "working class" people, and I don't really care for minor sub-divisions like that. BUT, also not that I include proper elder care. That's a higher bar than most people realize, and many nations generally don't do a good job with that.

      I don't care that everyone is "rich". I don't think that's feasibly possible. And it's not even really preferred. Happiness studies show that general happiness doesn't improve with increased wealth beyond that which meets a person's basic needs.

  15. They said *the world* by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    The US is becoming poorer but places like China and India are becoming richer.

    1. Re: They said *the world* by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      "Richer" in the sense that having 10 dollars makes you middle class

  16. "Middle class" = 11$/day/person (n/t) by Moskit · · Score: 4, Informative

    Definition of "middle class" used by researchers is ability to spend at least 11$ per day per person.

    1. Re:"Middle class" = 11$/day/person (n/t) by parkinglot777 · · Score: 1

      Definition of "middle class" used by researchers is ability to spend at least 11$ per day per person.

      You forgot that the research is about the whole world and not only for the 1st world countries (or not only for the U.S.)? That amount of money is quite plenty to spend for a day if you live in a 3rd world country. Anyway, I still think that the research/analysis isn't done correctly.

    2. Re:"Middle class" = 11$/day/person (n/t) by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1

      $4000 a year is a lot of money for most people in the world. For a family of 4 that's about $16000. You're probably rich and just never noticed it.

    3. Re:"Middle class" = 11$/day/person (n/t) by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      PPP

    4. Re:"Middle class" = 11$/day/person (n/t) by SlaveToTheGrind · · Score: 1

      Definition of "middle class" used by researchers is ability to spend at least 11$ per day per person.

      You may have stopped reading a touch early after you hit that sensational sounding statistic. Here's what they say their definition actually represents across countries/cultures:

      Our “middle class” classification was first developed in 2010 and has been used by many researchers. While acknowledging that the middle class does not have a precise definition that can be globally applied, the threshold we use in this work has the following characteristics: those in the middle class have some discretionary income that can be used to buy consumer durables like motorcycles, refrigerators, or washing machines. They can afford to go to movies or indulge in other forms of entertainment. They may take vacations. And they are reasonably confident that they and their family can weather an economic shock—like illness or a spell of unemployment—without falling back into extreme poverty.

    5. Re:"Middle class" = 11$/day/person (n/t) by Moskit · · Score: 1

      I did read it through, just found it more interesting that definition gets flattened to a universal number (>11USD).
      Full written definition looks very reasonable and makes more sense when used locally - applied to a country or even down to a region.

  17. fake news by astrofurter · · Score: 1

    Yup. Obvious fake news from well-known shills for the financial oligarchy.

  18. The rich will not be happy about this by BenJeremy · · Score: 1

    They've spent decades trying to destroy the middle class in the US, and are on the verge of success. They have little control, however, outside of their primary sphere of influence, and the rest of the world is catching up.

    Why is the middle class a threat? Because disposable income can be converted into eventual wealth, with more people "joining the party". The assault on education, health, and income for people was predicated on preventing "the poors" from getting too uppity and threatening the 0.1%ers ecosystem. The dot-com blip was co-opted by Wall Street, and put an end to most of the "Nouveau riche" that endangered their class.

    You also can track the decline in the US economy right along the decline of the middle class and increase in the wealth gap. People used to have more disposable income and spent it, stimulating our economy. The ultra-rich merely sit on their wealth and watch the US suffer for it with disdain.

  19. But let's look at the results of the experiment by nnappe · · Score: 1

    You describe this theory about how those taxes create more crime. Yet the Netherlands are one of the safest places in the world, specially if we normalize by their relative size and individual freedom . Yeah, the Maldives are doing great, if you don't mind your alcohol being prohibited.
    That system might not be perfect, but you singled out one of the best implementations that we have for a society that is effective and relatively efficient in keeping it's population happy, and in good part that is because it decided to care for all of its component parts. Almost every other place is doing worse off. There are exceptions of relative social peace and low taxes, but most that I know are either tax havens (those only leak benefits from balanced societies, their relative advantage would vanish if everyone followed suit) or havie some kind of sovereignly owned resource (like oil).

    1. Re:But let's look at the results of the experiment by Curunir_wolf · · Score: 1

      but you singled out one of the best implementations that we have for a society that is effective and relatively efficient in keeping it's population happy

      Well since the Netherlands are one of the biggest consumers of anti-depressant pharmaceuticals, I assume you're referring to the government support for keeping the population chemically docile.

      --
      "Somebody has to do something. It's just incredibly pathetic it has to be us."
      --- Jerry Garcia
  20. Surprising Facts About America's Poor by mpercy · · Score: 1, Insightful

    The word "poverty" to me conjures images of Depression-era, dust-bowl families with 8 kids living in a one-room tar-paper shack, no electricity, no running water, no crops, no food, no way out. Or hungry people living in tents under the overpass because they lost their jobs. It doesn't normally invoke people who spend all the money they have (or can steal) on meth, nor people who've had their $70K SUV repossessed because they couldn't actually afford the payments.

    Maybe that's just me. This 2011 Heritage report is a bit dated, but interesting view.

    "Understanding Poverty in the United States: Surprising Facts About America's Poor"

    The Census Bureau’s annual poverty report presents a misleading picture of poverty in the United States. Few of the 46.2 million people identified by the Census Bureau as being “in poverty” are what most Americans would consider poor—lacking nutritious food, adequate warm housing, or clothing. The typical “poor” American lives in an air-conditioned house or apartment and has cable TV, a car, multiple color TVs, a DVD player, and a VCR among other conveniences. While some of the poor face significant material hardship, formulating a sound, long-term anti-poverty policy that addresses the causes as well as the symptoms of poverty will require honest and accurate information. Exaggerating the extent and severity of hardships will not benefit society, the taxpayers, or the poor.

    1. Re:Surprising Facts About America's Poor by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      lol as if heritage has any credibility, cheap slave labour goods from china can make a poor family seem rich.

    2. Re:Surprising Facts About America's Poor by drinkypoo · · Score: 2

      The typical âoepoorâ American lives in an air-conditioned house or apartment and has cable TV, a car, multiple color TVs, a DVD player, and a VCR among other conveniences.

      Ooh, a VCR! It's the wealth of the 80s! You know VCRs are now toys for hipster millenials, right? They find the format amusing. I gave my VHS collection (including player) to one specifically because of this.

      Fact is, you can get a color TV for fifty bucks from a thrift store or off craigslist, but cooking a decent meal for two people will cost at least five dollars in ingredients and you expect to do that three times a day. Anything more complex than oatmeal or beans and rice has skyrocketed in price over the last decade. That people have some outdated electronics in their house is a crap measurement which tells you nothing.

      --
      "You're right," Fisheye says. "I should have set it on 'whip' or 'chop.'"
    3. Re:Surprising Facts About America's Poor by mpercy · · Score: 1

      Of course, that's why I said that the 2011 report was a bit dated...

    4. Re:Surprising Facts About America's Poor by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Doesn't the US have air con everywhere? If not having air con means you climb on the side of the building and dismantle that compressor box thing then you'll find not many people don't have air con.
      Like in France, a non homeless poor has a fridge and a two-plate electric stove in the kitchen (typical, but not mandatory), and also a bathroom (meaning sink and shower and the shitter either there or separate and just outside the apartment in a few remaining cases). Bathroom has been mandatory for enough decades that there is always one even if you think it takes quite some room in a zero-bedroom apartment. How big depends on what the owners did when they installed it half a century ago or at whenever after the war.
      There's even radiators and water heating. Else It will be up to you to not use these, or steal electricity or be a bad payer.

    5. Re:Surprising Facts About America's Poor by TheSync · · Score: 1

      "Anything more complex than oatmeal or beans and rice has skyrocketed in price over the last decade. "

      Consumer Price Index for All Urban Consumers: Food at home is only up 15% over the last 10 years. (That is a real price, of course, which tracks very closely with the 17% inflation rate).

    6. Re:Surprising Facts About America's Poor by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      A VCR in 2011 is more than just "a bit dated." Owning one does not mean you are wealthy. In reference to the single room tar paper shack analogy, this is like owning a deck of cards. It can be amusing but a lot of other people got it better.

    7. Re:Surprising Facts About America's Poor by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      And in 2018.. I know a guy who said he had a laptop. He lost it because he was sleeping in a tent and the river went up during the night. He waked up early morning in the middle of being carried away by the river, cut through the tent with his knife and survived but leaving the tent, laptop and possessions behind.

  21. Except in socialist countries by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Always the same story. Socialism creates poverty, capitalism creates prosperity.

  22. I see what you did there... by deoxyribonucleicacid · · Score: 1

    With wide enough goalposts, any amount of people can be "middle class".

  23. Wealth is Relative by Eldaar · · Score: 1

    Wealth is relative, and so is poverty. While poor Americans have quite a lot by the standards of other societies, that's not the point. They still struggle to afford food, housing, transporation, medical care, etc. And they especially struggle to have these things on a predictable, reliable basis. That's where the poverty really comes in - that these things are not predictable and reliable, when they are essential for living in the given society. That lack of predictability and reliability exerts a mental stress on people, as they are preoccupied with thoughts of whether or not they will be able to maintain what they have.

    This is why income and wealth inequality are valuable measures in a given country. A country like the US with extreme wealth but great wealth inequality experiences a variety of social problems as a result. Researchers from the UK have done a good job exploring the relationships between income/wealth inequality and social ills (https://www.equalitytrust.org.uk/).

    1. Re:Wealth is Relative by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      They don't seem to struggle to afford their $50,000 diesel truck. I have sympathy for those who are truly poor, but living paycheck to paycheck most certainly does NOT qualify one as poor, but merely financially irresponsible.

  24. Re:It depends on how your government is spending.. by bugs2squash · · Score: 1

    78% doesn't sound right. Here is a breakdown of income taxes in NL and there are other links to taxation in general in Wikipedia. It looks as if you did the usual thing, picked the top marginal rate, found a worse case scenario...

    --
    Nullius in verba
  25. perspective by Tom · · Score: 4, Insightful

    Such a narrow perspective in so many answers. Turn on your brain, people !

    Living in the 1st and living in the 2nd or 3rd world makes for a dramatic difference these days. Real wages in the west have stagnated or gone down for two decades now. But for the poor of the world - China alone is lifting 10 million people out of poverty every year. People in Africa who 20 years ago didn't know where their next bowl of food will come from now have smartphones.

    If you are among the very poor of the world, the last decades were a good time, in general.

    Our personal perspective in the USA and in Europe is quite different. We are witnessing the ongoing largest theft in human history, called the financial crisis, and we watch the rich getting richer and us getting poorer.

    But on a global scale, we are just 1.5 billion, give or take a few. Everyone else becoming less poor statistically overcompensates for our misery.

    --
    Assorted stuff I do sometimes: Lemuria.org
    1. Re:perspective by TheSync · · Score: 2

      "Real wages in the west have stagnated or gone down for two decades now."

      Real total compensation per hour in the US is up 20% over the last 20 years.

      It should also be noted that 13.7% (44.5 million people) in the US are foreign born, meaning they chose to come to the US for a better life. They are likely doing much better than if they remained where they were, even if they bring down average US compensation data.

    2. Re:perspective by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      You must take into account that inflation rate was over 50% in the US for the same 20 years. People are then an average of 30% poorer...

      Check for yourself maybe I'm wrong, but I just did the search to get the exact info, I'm staggered by the numbers ! If my maths are good, it takes 152,71$ today for what you could buy for 100$ in 1998 in the US.

    3. Re:perspective by Tom · · Score: 1

      A better statistic, Germany (which is the best performer in Europe, everyone else is considerably worse):

      https://www.destatis.de/DE/Pre...

      This is only the past 10 years, because I'm lazy and this was fast to find. Note that the line goes up and down. If you pick a few years carefully, you can easily find both an increase and a decrease by several % somewhere within this period.

      If you would look at the same line for Spain or Greece or Italy, I'm sure there would be a much more bleak picture.

      --
      Assorted stuff I do sometimes: Lemuria.org
    4. Re:perspective by antdude · · Score: 1

      Some people don't even have brains like me!

      --
      Ant(Dude) @ Quality Foraged Links (AQFL.net) & The Ant Farm (antfarm.ma.cx / antfarm.home.dhs.org).
  26. Re:It depends on how your government is spending.. by Halueth · · Score: 1

    This only covers income taxes. What they don't take into account are the municipality taxes, the taxes on drinking water, plumbing, waste. You have to subtract them as well from your net income. When the dust settles, everything you buy has a 9% or 21% vat, which is also a form of taxes. So, if you add up all those extra taxes, you'll be hitting the >78% easily, and in some cases more. Sorry this is in Dutch, but this is a list of taxes on top of the income taxes (nr 2 is income tax). 1. Motorrijtuigenbelasting. 2. Inkomstenbelasting. 3. Grondwaterbelasting. 4. Hondenbelasting. 5. Precariorechten. 6. Onroerend goed belasting. 7. Extra op schuimwijn 8. Vennootschapsbelasting. 9. Vaarbelasting. 10. Toeristenbelasting. 11. Vermogensbelasting 12. Overdrachtsbelasting. 13. Milieubelasting 14. Kansspelbelasting 15. Dividendbelasting 16. Extra op frisdrank 17. Premie volksverzekering. 18. Omzetbelasting. 19. Assurantiebelasting. 20. Belasting personenauto BPM. 21. Extra op vruchtendrank 22. Suiker accijns 23. Brandstof accijns 24. Successierechten 25. Alcoholaccijns 26. Bier accijns 27. Accijns op minerale olien. 28. Kapitaal belasting 29. Verontreinigingsheffing oppervlaktewateren 30. Waterkeringsomslag. 31. Waterbeheersingsomslag 32. Ingezetenenomslag 33. Waterschapbelastingen 34. Rioolrecht. 35. Reinigingsrecht. 36. Afvalstoffenheffing. 37. Marktgeld. 38. Leges 39. Bouwgrondbelasting. 40. Havengelden. 41. Begrafenisrechten. 42. Extra op limonadesiroop 43. Parkeerbelasting. 44. Forensbelasting. 45. Baatbelasting. 46. Energiebelasting. 47. Belasting op leidingwater. 48. Schenkingsrecht. 49. Huurbelasting. 50. Verhuurdersheffing. 51. Bouwleges 52. Windmolentoeslag 53. Verkeersboetes 54. Bp procedurekosten 55. Vooroverlegkosten gemeente 56. Recreatie toeslag 57. Schoolgeld 58. Netbelasting 59. Opritbelasting bij de dijken (bestaat al in rivierengebied) 60. Verpakkingsbelasting 61. Energiebelasting 62. Extra op mineraalwater 63. Zorgverzekering 64. Precariobelasting 65. Erfpacht 66. EU naheffing 67. Tabaksaccijns 68. Reclamebelasting 69. Extra op vruchtensap 70. Straatparkeren 71. Erfbelasting 72. Internetbelasting (binnenkort ?) 73. Heffing op zonnepanelen 74. Luchthavenbelasting 75. Asielzoekersbelasting (binnenkort ?) 76. Bijdrage tbv basisinkomen (binnenkort ?) 77. tol westerscheldetunnel

  27. Looks like a truism. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Isn't the middle class in a country defined by the median income there? If so, 50% of the population will always be middle class or higher.

  28. Re:It depends on how your government is spending.. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    but the government is spending more and more on things which have nothing to do with those like immigration (costing 32k an immigrant per year on benefits alone; we take in 100k a year).

    NET migration into NL last year was ~32k, not 100k. And of those, 2030 were asylum applicants. I'm reasonably sure a large percentage of the others are not on welfare.

  29. Sure, but the average is still higher yet. by mark-t · · Score: 1

    The fact that that the 50th percentile has finally gotten bumped up far enough that it happens to be above the recognized poverty line is good, and it is a reflection of how well less developed nations are improving their standards, but the Pareto principle continues to apply to wealth distribution, and you are still going to see huge income disparities.

    And of course, that still leaves aside the fact that middle class is a pretty broad classification that includes people who still don't make enough money to have savings to speak of or have any ability to prepare for retirement because they are too busy just living from one paycheck to the next.

  30. Capitalism Made it Possible by sycodon · · Score: 1

    Nothing more needs to be said.

    --
    When Fascism comes to America, it will call itself Anti-Fascism, and tell you to give up your guns.
    1. Re:Capitalism Made it Possible by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Did capitalism redefine poverty down to "anyone who lives off 50 cents a day" and suddenly lift billions out of poverty again?

  31. Re: Liberal = oppression by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    what

  32. Median income = middle class by Framboise · · Score: 2

    The median income of a population is a robust way to define the middle class. So by definition 50% of people earn more, 50% earn less at all time, in all countries. Money devaluation does not change the median. Adding a few billionaires to the population doesn't change much the result.

    In contrast the arithmetic average is strongly sensitive to income inequalities, since a few additional billionaires can shift the average a lot.

     

  33. I used the 60% figure by rsilvergun · · Score: 1

    because after that it's debatable. I've seen it as high as 80%

    We do teach kids how to live on their own. If you're an at risk kid you go through what's called "Consumer Math".

    One of the things folks have a hard time with is the concept of "You can't budget what isn't there". As the saying goes nobody in America is poor, we're a nation of temporarily inconvenienced millionaires. Wages have been dropping at the low end for ages. Higher pay at the top end and with professionals has masked that. But you can see the results when you look at the percentage of income folks spend on food, housing, transportation and healthcare. It's been rising non stop and with it there's less money to save.

    People aren't buying McMansions either. Yes, houses are bigger than the 50s but they're cheaper to produce. Factory automation has slashed the cost of building cars while the prices sky rocketed. And among the many shitty things Bush Jr did he deregulated the commodities market. resulting in higher food prices (the effect of which was why they were regulated in the first place).

    And then there's the cost of education. We have Trillions in Student Loan Debt. Right wing think tanks will tell you that it's because greedy schools are following supply and demand and raising prices to soak up quick cash. I've got a kid in school and can tell you this is bullshit. There were half as many slots in my kid's 300 level classes as there were qualified applicants (GPA 3.8 or higher, yes, that's an eight, not a zero). If the schools were pricing based on demand they'd just raise the price until they got the right number of applicants. What _did_ happen is we cut federal subsidies in the 90s and 2000s (not all at once mind you, folks would notice that). What I don't understand is why otherwise intelligent people with kids in college repeat this lie...

    I guess what I"m saying is the working class is getting screwed, and I wish we'd all wake up to the fact. You can't squeeze blood from a stone and you can't budget what ain't there.

    --
    Hi! I make Firefox Plug-ins. Check 'em out @ https://addons.mozilla.org/en-US/firefox/addon/youtube-mp3-podcaster/
    1. Re:I used the 60% figure by dcw3 · · Score: 1

      Okay, you're all over the map with topics.

      No, we don't teach our kids to live on their own. Most schools don't teach much of any of the basic skills it takes to do your own finances. "Consumer Math"? Maybe in your school district, but it's not common.

      Most people don't want a "McMansion". I grew up poor and desired one until I was able to get it. Once I did, I realized what a pain in the ass it is to own, and that I didn't really need all that space. I'll be downsizing by about half when I retire next year.

      I'm well aware of the cost of education, having put my own kid through for ~$140k out of state several years ago. That's a whole different topic, and yes it's fucked up, and we'll probably disagree on what needs to be done to fix it. My kid had a 3.5 HS GPA, and couldn't get into a couple of the in state schools she wanted, even with the necessary SAT scores, and being a minority...that was back in '09.

      As for the working class getting screwed, we're all getting screwed to some degree. There's just more pressure at the lower end. But again, that's not what we were discussing above.

      --
      Just another day in Paradise
    2. Re:I used the 60% figure by TheSync · · Score: 1

      Right wing think tanks will tell you that it's because greedy schools are following supply and demand and raising prices to soak up quick cash. I've got a kid in school and can tell you this is bullshit. There were half as many slots in my kid's 300 level classes as there were qualified applicants (GPA 3.8 or higher, yes, that's an eight, not a zero). If the schools were pricing based on demand they'd just raise the price until they got the right number of applicants.

      Current US average state/local spending on higher education is $7,120 per student. And that is before any student tuition payments.

      I wish we had better historical data on actual college spending per student, but I really have to think it has risen. The quality of the physical plant of most public universities I know of have risen dramatically (dorms used to be cinder-block "jails without bars").

      Also the number of executive, administrative and managerial employees on US university campuses are up by 15% between 2007 and 2014.

      I think it is a realistic market model to expect that some universities wish to realize the high student payments that can be extracted by the richest families, and thus many universities are competing to be "highly selective". If you "just let anyone attend", your selectivity will become low, and thus you will attract students of less well-off families who can pay less. "Less selective" universities may also face reduction in ability to enter into non-educational research transactions, and will attract less alumni funding.

      Today we're at about 70% of recent high school grads enrolling in college, which is up from 60% in 1990. so clearly colleges are enrolling more students, again an indication that the market model is correct. It might be that "more selective" colleges are happy not to admit more, but "less selective" colleges are expanding enrollment.

    3. Re:I used the 60% figure by El+Cubano · · Score: 2

      I think it is a realistic market model to expect that some universities wish to realize the high student payments that can be extracted by the richest families, and thus many universities are competing to be "highly selective"

      I teach at a public university that is not selective (or cannot be selective, not sure). In any event, here are their recruiting priorities (and they are open about this): international graduate students, out of state graduate students, other international and out of state students, and (finally) in state students.

      I will let you guess why those are the recruiting priorities.

    4. Re:I used the 60% figure by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Hey dumb ass!

      If the kids can't get in the class, they have to stick around for longer, which gives the school more money. This isn't fucking rocket surgery.

    5. Re:I used the 60% figure by TheSync · · Score: 1

      nternational graduate students, out of state graduate students, other international and out of state students, and (finally) in state students. I will let you guess why those are the recruiting priorities.

      Because non in-state students pay higher tuition rates?

  34. I can buy a 65" TV for $400 by rsilvergun · · Score: 2

    that's affordable without debt even on $12 bucks an hour. That SUV is used and built on a truck platform. It may guzzle gas but it's cheaper design makes it much more reliable. When you buy a vehicle even poor folks consider total ROI (though most wouldn't know it's called ROI).

    If that's all the discretionary spending you can come up with you're not trying hard enough. I mean, if you're gonna shame the poor why not go all out and mention steak, lobster and Cadillacs. Oh, and don't go looking into studies that show the pressures from poverty affect decision making or how worrying about money and food non-stop lead to mistakes. Just keep drinking deep from the well of prosperity gospel.

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    1. Re:I can buy a 65" TV for $400 by El+Cubano · · Score: 1

      I can buy a 65" TV for $400 that's affordable without debt even on $12 bucks an hour. That SUV is used and built on a truck platform. It may guzzle gas but it's cheaper design makes it much more reliable. When you buy a vehicle even poor folks consider total ROI (though most wouldn't know it's called ROI).

      Your cognitive dissonance is just astounding. In one breath you shriek about paycheck to paycheck, with dubious figures to accompany it, you have in other discussions cited things like Medical debt as a reason for people living paycheck to paycheck and then in the next breath argue that things like luxury electronics and luxury vehicles (yes, SUVs are luxury vehicles when you consider that the median transaction price for a passenger car is in the $25,000 range, while the median transaction price for an SUV is in the $35,000 and that the SUV is more expensive to operate, maintain, and insure) are affordable on the equivalent of $24,000/year.

      Seriously, just accept that there are some people out there with legitimate financial problems but you also need to accept the reality that there are plenty of people whose financial hardships are a clear and direct result of their own conscious choice to pursue consumerism as a lifestyle.

    2. Re:I can buy a 65" TV for $400 by Nidi62 · · Score: 1

      That SUV is used and built on a truck platform. It may guzzle gas but it's cheaper design makes it much more reliable. When you buy a vehicle even poor folks consider total ROI (though most wouldn't know it's called ROI).

      Still doesn't mean you have to lease a new one every 3 years for $400 a month. We just bought a used 2011 BMW x3 with 70k miles for less than we paid for my 2014 Focus new. And that BMW will still last longer than my Focus will. It's replacing my wife's 2001 330i.

      --
      The only thing necessary for evil to triumph is for it to be pitted against a slightly greater evil
    3. Re:I can buy a 65" TV for $400 by dasunt · · Score: 1

      That SUV is used and built on a truck platform. It may guzzle gas but it's cheaper design makes it much more reliable.

      IDK. Maybe we've been lucky, but I tend towards cheap cars and reliability has been high. YMMV (literally!)

      I see part of the poor's problem as being a lack of money. Not having money is expensive.

      Tomorrow, I could go out and spend $1,000 on repairs or $4,000 on a Craigslist find. I usually don't want to spend that money, but I could, if I have to. Even if I didn't have that money on hand, I have good credit due to not being poor. And obviously I can afford not having a working vehicle for awhile. Plus, I live closer to work, since we could afford a home nearer to the center of the metro area, so I put less miles on my vehicle. Oh, and I have a garage and a semi-decent collection of tools for repairs.

      Contrast with a poor person - who doesn't have that $4,000 or so. They are stuck going to whatever car lot they can get to, and getting dealer financing at horrible rates for whatever auto they qualify for on the lot. They have to try to buy something that's semi-reliable, They probably even have to put more miles on it than I do. They must always take it in for repairs.

      As a result, I can have a lower TCO than a poor person when it comes to vehicles.

  35. Insurance, rent & groceries: the new middle cl by ElitistWhiner · · Score: 2

    In the U.S. by definition you entered ' middle class' when you had a job, bought a car, a home and sent your kids to public school.

    Not a chance! A kid works 5 years at GOOG, lives in a $2400/mo apt in SF and still can't afford a car payment, mortgage and child care. A kid can even choose to work three jobs, 7 days a week for a start-up. And it will barely cover car insurance, rent and groceries but there is no pathway to a car payment, mortgage and child care for a middle class lifestyle in the United States.

    Bullshit...millennials are screwed by The Brookings Institution's white washed ivory proclamations to the contrary that insurance, rent and groceries is the new middle class.

  36. Reactionary Ideological and Cultural Poisoning of by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Oct. 1, Juche 107 (2018) Monday

    Reactionary Ideological and Cultural Poisoning of Imperialists Should Be Checked

      The imperialists’ ideological and cultural poisoning targeting independent countries has become craftier and more vicious.

    Failure to check the imperialists’ ideological and cultural poisoning would prevent a country from defending its sovereignty and dignity, let alone achieving the independent development and prosperity.

    There is constant danger of infiltration of bourgeois ideology and culture into other countries, given the escalated moves of the imperialists to stamp out the independent forces, and the complicated situation.

    The main target of the imperialists’ ideological and cultural poisoning campaign is young people.

    The destiny and future of each country and nation depend on the new generation who would shoulder upon the future. Failing to do proper education of young people would result in getting them affected by bourgeois ideology and culture to be hooligans seeking their own luxury only.

    The imperialists remain unchanged in the way of their aggression designed to disrupt and disintegrate the anti-imperialist and independent countries and attain their goal through the reactionary ideological poisoning.

    Countries aspiring after independent development and social progress should bear this in mind and thoroughly frustrate at the germinal stage the bourgeois ideological and cultural poisoning by the imperialists.

    Ri Hak Nam

  37. PERSONAL RESPONSIBILITY by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    I know personal responsibility is a foreign concept to most of you slashdotters.. but the reality is that many of those in the first world that do not exist in the middle class are there BY CHOICE. Its certainly not a lack of opportunity. They blow off work to party or play video games and watch TV. They continue to have children when they cant afford the ones they already have and birth control is MUCh cheaper than children so dont go making excuses about how difficult it is to obtain. Day after pills are cheaper than a large box of diapers! ALL OF YOU consistently excuse bad behaviors as if the people are just victims of circumstance. By doing that you subsidize their behavior allowing the cycle to continue. And for all you morons idolizing those nordic Utopias.. you never want to acknowledge the FACT that they have the HIGHEST rates of personal debt ON THE WHOLE FUCKING PLANET. They live and die in debt because ANY luxury items they want they have to buy on credit because all their disposable income goes to taxes on basic goods and services.

    1. Re:PERSONAL RESPONSIBILITY by robsku · · Score: 1

      This, from Finland with love: What fucking bullshit?

      --
      In capitalist USA corporations control the government.
  38. wealth concentration and taxes by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1

    Apparently, human society has a tendency to concentrate resources and influence following a power law distribution, and there's not much that can be done about that.

    Sure there is. Raise the top marginal tax rates, and introduce Thomas Piketty's idea of a (net) wealth tax.

    Inequality was much lower between 1950 and and about 1980 (WW2 having levelled the playing field). However, ever since Reagan-Thatcher neoliberalism became popular in the 1980s we've been heading towards (if not already entered) a new Guilded Age in the West.

    It's not that hard to back a more reasonable Gini index (from >0.40 in the US, back to ~0.30): raise taxes, and use the revenues to rebuild infrastructure, better the social safety net, and improve education (so teachers don't have to take up second jobs).

    This is not rocket surgery.

    1. Re:wealth concentration and taxes by TuringTest · · Score: 1

      Sure there is. Raise the top marginal tax rates, and introduce Thomas Piketty's idea of a (net) wealth tax.

      Sure, that reduces the inequality, and it's what I was referring to by " bring part of those concentrated resources back to those who created them". But it doesn't eliminate the existence of a ruling class with access to more resources. The human kind is simply not wired for that - as a society, we long for leaders and put anyone in that position when there's a vacuum of power.

      I'm afraid the more we can achieve in terms of social justice is trying to keep a balance between the top and bottom, so that the rulers don't abuse their position too much and must face balances and a structured opposition. But having a power-law distribution of influence is a natural result of network effects, and our best chance is flattening the curve, not straighten it.

      --
      Singularity: a belief in the "God" idea with the "demiurge" relation inverted.
  39. Re:Insurance, rent & groceries: the new middle by TheSync · · Score: 2

    Don't live in SF where government artificially restricts the housing market. Move to Memphis, TN, where the median home price is $82,700.

  40. Education is needed but is not enough by The+Snazster · · Score: 1

    First off, making more than 40k a year in USD puts you in the top 1% for the world. On that scale, being middle class would scare the hell out of me. Next, people who are the least bit financially literate are going to have a lot more as they near retirement age because that is what they were supposed to be doing, saving for a time when they would no longer be able to earn a decent wage. People who might have been working at entry level jobs with almost no savings in their twenties could easily be millionaires by age 60. But that requires a certain level of self-control and financial literacy. Face it. A lot of people are not financially literate and educating them is only going to help some of them. Not that we shouldn't try to make courses in certain things (managing your credit rating, managing your pay and deductions, how to create a sustainable savings plan, how to create a household budget, needs versus wants, and how to shop for food and necessities when you are out of work) mandatory in high school. Many people could swim all day in the sea of knowledge and never get wet. Even as adults, now, everything they would ever need to know they could pick up in an hour a day on the internet in a month or two for free. What does it say about people that so few make the effort? The only alternative to them blowing it for themselves would seem to be to have their government save and invest some portion of their income for them. Unfortunately, we can't trust politicians access to all that money if it were saved up somewhere as there is no good way to prevent them from sticking their hands in it. Case in point being what happened to Social Security (and it could still be fixed in twenty minutes if the right people in DC got together and agreed to do it, don't hold your breath). So in practice, to help people who never accumulated any savings, this always seems to work out as the government just using tax money to help alleviate the worst of the misery so we don't find dead bodies in the gutter every morning, as used to be the case in the good old days. But, politicians being politicians, once they have all this money flowing through their hands, and so many people dependent on it, they try to find ways to use it to address other issues, from noble but misguided ones, to just retaining their own grasp on power.

  41. Not according to Marketwatch by WillAffleckUW · · Score: 1

    There are published stats on how people have recovered by decile from the last crash, and only those of us in the top 10 percent of the US have actually increased our wealth, all the rest of you are still broke.

    (source: Marketwatch, use that google thing you lazy peon)

    --
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  42. How much does that save them? by penguinoid · · Score: 1

    People saying they can only afford to live paycheck-to-paycheck always get mad when I ask them how much they save by living paycheck-to-paycheck.

    --
    Don't waste your vote! Vote for whoever you want, unless you live in a swing state it won't matter anyways
  43. I'm so contused by JonnyN · · Score: 1

    Bear with me here, I'm trying to get my head around this place.

    --
    I help business owners sell their expertise online.
  44. Don't trust Brookings by bussdriver · · Score: 1

    Think tanks are ideologically based with an agenda by the owners. You have to not fall for the intended plan to get people equating them with legitimate institutions.

    Sure professors and universities seem to have a bias; but they do not have a ruling elite (usually setup by 1 person) that dictates from above. They may have hiring and tenure committees with biases but it's free to run in other directions and not completely beholden to a few founders/owners and their later corporate sponsors. The real conspiracies ARE the think tanks, not the universities and laboratories.

    These think tanks primarily sprung out or grew from the Nixon era to give corporations more power over messaging. Their whole purpose is to promote intellectual whores or the occasional true believer and the rare intellectually honest ideologically aligned employee. It's not as noble as a lawyer (which for many is reaching too far already.)

    Smoking is GOOD for you!! The think tanks said so! You think they gave up after losing on smoking?! They won for 30 years. It only expanded. Who has the time to take apart well funded fake science / studies anymore? Obviously, if there are any hints of truth they'll exploit it to the hilt and maybe do a little good by accident.

  45. The world has gone insane by dnaumov · · Score: 1

    when people who can only afford a 2 year old iPhone instead of the latest one call themselves poor. Lack of actual, serious, genuine trouble such as mass war, famine and roaming rape gangs apparently does seriosly crazy things to the psyche of a lot of people over many decades of calm.

  46. Re:It depends on how your government is spending.. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Immigrants don't take even a tiny fraction of what corporations have been raking in since the 1980s tax cuts and deregulation. Immigrants are a net contributor to the economy. Particularly those who work illegally because they pay Social Security and payroll taxes but can't get the benefits.

  47. Re:Huh... (yeah, def of "middle class" lowered by adrn01 · · Score: 1

    From the article:
    We make these claims based on a classification of households into those in extreme poverty (households spending below $1.90 per person per day) and those in the middle class (households spending $11-110 per day per person in 2011 purchasing power parity, or PPP). Two other groups round out our classification: vulnerable households fall between those in poverty and the middle class; and those who are at the top of the distribution who are classified as “rich.”
    11 -110 per day, when already adjusted for purchasing power, is clearly claiming that only having 11/day per person is NOT poverty.

  48. apocyrphal politican speech... by morethanapapercert · · Score: 1
    I seem to recall an apocryphal speech by an American politician campaigning in the first half of the 20th century that had the line "...and we will continue on this path until all Americans have an above average income!" Or something to that effect. I found it in a Robert A. Heinlein book so it may be entirely fictional, but R.A.H. often based those sorts of anecdotes on real world examples from his personal experience in politics.

    This story reminds me of that. By definition, middle class means those people in the middle of the socio-economic ladder. How far up or down on the ladder you place the cut off points is subject to change by whomever is collating the data, but not the definition itself.

    I can't be bothered to read the source, but it occurs to me that this sort of story could be generated simply by moving the lower boundary downwards while also not recalculating the median or mean. I am no mathematician, certainly not a statistician, but the article just strikes me as bad statistics in action.

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  49. What dubious figures by rsilvergun · · Score: 1

    folks buy used SUVs. Old ones. 10+ years. They last 20+ years because they're built on a truck chassis. Poor people are often blue color and they know this. There's plenty of non luxury SUVs. How do you not know this? I can get an old Suburban for $5k with 150k miles and it'll go another 100k miles with minimal maintenance. Get a Sentra with 150k miles on it and it's about ready for the dump.

    Of course some people have legitimate financial problems. You're cherry picking outliers to make yourself feel better about ignoring the plight of the working class. I get it. You're worried that if they're paid better, have healthcare and decent jobs that you'll lose those things. You're seeing those things slip away every day. Outside of the top 10% we all are. But dumping all over people for their mistakes isn't the solution. Yeah, if they'd put their heads down and got a college education then put their heads down some more and worked non-stop for 20 years they'd be doing OK. Not a lot of folks can do that, but us Americans act like it should be the norm. Start accepting people for who they are and you'll start seeing improvements in the world. If not things will keep going to shit, and unless you happen to be a millionaire slumming it on /. they'll take you with it.

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  50. They don't by rsilvergun · · Score: 1

    they go on craiglist or to a sled lot and but an old SUV because they're durable as fuck and cheap to fix. Again, truck parts. I drive a really old car (25 years) and the parts I get don't last. I get 2 years out of a radiator if I'm lucky. I don't have the option to buy better parts because they don't make them. That's what happens when you drive old cars.

    Your BMW is nice and all, but the parts are _expensive_ and a lot of the work can't be done without special tools. Again, truck chassis. The blue collar guys buying those things can easily work on them.

    If you've got a new Focus and can afford to maintain a BMW you've probably been away from the world of the dirt poor for a while. It's very different, very weird and completely counter intuitive. The world is a mess when you're part of the working poor.

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  51. Yep, the number varies by rsilvergun · · Score: 1

    because it based on polls of people asking "Do you have $1000 bucks". That's so little money that it swings wildly, from as high as 80 to as low as 60%. But I've yet to see a poll where it drops below 60%, so I'm starting to use that number so that folks like you don't try to use the variation as a straw man to discredit the (extremely valid) point that a majority of Americans live paycheck to paycheck (e.g. they don't have enough savings to even pay 1 months rent/mortgage).

    And, well, I can't really thank you for living up to my expectations and bringing up that straw man, but there it is.

    And yes, we can absolutely be in an era of people having a large amount of discretionary income while the majority of Americans live paycheck to paycheck. The phrase your looking for is "income inequality". You're right that you can't have both the _majority_ of people living paycheck to paycheck AND the _majority_ of people having high discretionary income, but I don't see any evidence of that.

    People buying cell phones does NOT mean they have a lot of discretionary income. It means that cell phones are cheap. Cheap Chinese electronics mean people can afford what used to be luxuries. OTOH things that used to be taken for granted (like college education, healthcare, affordable housing and transportation) have become luxuries that devour the majority of people income and drive them into bankruptcy.

    You can't not know this. Again, you're strawmaning. Like the Avocado Toast guy, Fox News with their "Poor people have refrigerators and yes we are going to ignore anti-slum laws that require apartments to have fridges" and of course the old standby "Welfare queens in Cadillac buying Steak & Lobster with food stamps". It's prosperity gospel. Blaming the working classes' woes, which have largely been caused by outsourcing and a global race to the bottom, on poor moral character so that you don't have to do anything about it and can feel good about abusing them.

    It won't last. You're not a member of the ruling class. The ruling class doesn't post to /.. They're going to eat you alive. And me too. And everyone else reading this post. Now is the time for us to show some worker solidarity and stand up to them if we want to.

    Or don't. My kid graduates college in 2 years, I only have the one and odds are good my line is gonna die out. I'll be dead from heart problems in 15 years thanks to poor genetics no matter how healthy I am. I'm starting to lose hope for you guys. I can only do so much outreach. I'm not Bernie fsckin' Sanders here.

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  52. Meanwhile APK by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    APK is zero-class, poor as shit living in a hellhole dump in New York (itself a dump state.)

    Feels good, doesn't it?

  53. Definitions Count by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    "I define the global middle class as those households with daily expenditures between USD10 and USD100 per person"

    So basically, crap study.

  54. Ok... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Move the goalposts and you can even make people in section-8 housing look like "middle class".

  55. Better Off for Corporations & Billionaires by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    The USA unemployment, count only those unemployed less than 13 months is around 3% to 4%.
    Count every unemployed person in the USA and it's around 11% to 14%.

    R we really better off? Some work 3 jobs. Hell, I use to work 2 jobs.
    Red Neck just never learn. Vote like a Billionaire. Vote for Democrats that can create laws so we don't have to be a red neck no more. Lets create laws so we can also get $20 dollar as minimum hourly pay.

    They don't want me to post this short smart message.

  56. Now I have to agree - Slashdot has died by rcharbon · · Score: 1

    I've kept reading Slashdot through all the crap that's occured over the years, but now that right-wing propaganda is being published as serious news, maybe it's finally time to go.