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Silicon Valley's Saudi Arabia Problem (nytimes.com)
An anonymous reader shares a report: Somewhere in the United States, someone is getting into an Uber en route to a WeWork co-working space. Their dog is with a walker whom they hired through the app Wag. They will eat a lunch delivered by DoorDash, while participating in several chat conversations on Slack. And, for all of it, they have an unlikely benefactor to thank: the Kingdom of Saudi Arabia. Long before the dissident Saudi journalist Jamal Khashoggi vanished, the kingdom has sought influence in the West -- perhaps intended, in part, to make us forget what it is. A medieval theocracy that still beheads by sword, doubling as a modern nation with malls (including a planned mall offering indoor skiing), Saudi Arabia has been called "an ISIS that made it." Remarkably, the country has avoided pariah status in the United States thanks to our thirst for oil, Riyadh's carefully cultivated ties with Washington, its big arms purchases, and the two countries' shared interest in counterterrorism. But lately the Saudis have been growing their circle of American enablers, pouring billions into Silicon Valley technology companies.
While an earlier generation of Saudi leaders, like Prince Alwaleed bin Talal, invested billions of dollars in blue-chip companies in the United States, the kingdom's new crown prince, Mohammed bin Salman, has shifted Saudi Arabia's investment attention from Wall Street to Silicon Valley. Saudi Arabia's Public Investment Fund has become one of Silicon Valley's biggest swinging checkbooks, working mostly through a $100 billion fund raised by SoftBank (a Japanese company), which has swashbuckled its way through the technology industry, often taking multibillion-dollar stakes in promising companies. The Public Investment Fund put $45 billion into SoftBank's first Vision Fund, and Bloomberg recently reported that the Saudi fund would invest another $45 billion into SoftBank's second Vision Fund. SoftBank, with the help of that Saudi money, is now said to be the largest shareholder in Uber. It has also put significant money into a long list of start-ups that includes Wag, DoorDash, WeWork, Plenty, Cruise, Katerra, Nvidia and Slack. As the world fills up car tanks with gas and climate change worsens, Saudi Arabia reaps enormous profits -- and some of that money shows up in the bank accounts of fast-growing companies that love to talk about "making the world a better place."
While an earlier generation of Saudi leaders, like Prince Alwaleed bin Talal, invested billions of dollars in blue-chip companies in the United States, the kingdom's new crown prince, Mohammed bin Salman, has shifted Saudi Arabia's investment attention from Wall Street to Silicon Valley. Saudi Arabia's Public Investment Fund has become one of Silicon Valley's biggest swinging checkbooks, working mostly through a $100 billion fund raised by SoftBank (a Japanese company), which has swashbuckled its way through the technology industry, often taking multibillion-dollar stakes in promising companies. The Public Investment Fund put $45 billion into SoftBank's first Vision Fund, and Bloomberg recently reported that the Saudi fund would invest another $45 billion into SoftBank's second Vision Fund. SoftBank, with the help of that Saudi money, is now said to be the largest shareholder in Uber. It has also put significant money into a long list of start-ups that includes Wag, DoorDash, WeWork, Plenty, Cruise, Katerra, Nvidia and Slack. As the world fills up car tanks with gas and climate change worsens, Saudi Arabia reaps enormous profits -- and some of that money shows up in the bank accounts of fast-growing companies that love to talk about "making the world a better place."
Problem solved.
Next problem?
I don't respond to AC's.
Typically there is a jury involved if death by volts in the USA
the beheaded had a trial too
If you've ever worked with Silicon Valley types you'd know most of them will sell their mom for a buck. Nobody gives a shit where their next round comes from as long as it does come.
Lots of talk, followed by some back room dealing. A compromise will be reached whereas the US and Europe can take some token action that Saudi Arabia will make strident statements against and will make some token responding gesture - neither of which will substantively impact each other.
The West is just too dependent on Saudi oil... plus they’re considered friendly to western interests. No one will have the will to really punish them.
#DeleteChrome
I never understood why so many people support, visit, and defend that country
The food's quite good.
No sig today...
The US gives the death penalty for murder and worse.
Saudi Arabia gives the death penalty (or tries to) for speaking out:
https://www.nbcnews.com/news/world/saudi-arabia-seeks-unprecedented-death-penalty-woman-activist-n902771
They also apply the death penalty for things that aren't even crimes in civilized countries, like sodomy, blashpemy and witchcraft:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Capital_punishment_in_Saudi_Arabia#Other_offences
Also, the US is a Democracy, not a theocracy.
That's why they've invested so much into SV. The Saudi government knows the oil gravy train cant run forever so they are diversifying their income stream. The Saudi government is heavy into real estate as well.
The only thing necessary for evil to triumph is for it to be pitted against a slightly greater evil
take a look at how much influence the Saudis have bought in mainstream media outlets and academia. There's a reason the former will lie through their teeth about Israel even as Hamas claims armed combatants and live video shows armed terrorists with guns and high explosives, and latter is increasingly full of people who will openly violently attack jewish students just for existing while heaping praise on arab colonialism.
A bullet may have your name on it but splash damage is addressed "To whom it may concern."
There might be a slight difference between executing (different than murder) someone who was themselves a mass murderer after they've sat in prison for decades and have had several rounds of appeals as opposed to executing someone for homosexuality, being a women's rights activist, or allegedly practicing sorcery. If you're lucky you might even be crucified.
Also, not all U.S. states have a death penalty, and of those that do, many don't use the electric chair. Wikipedia indicates that some states allow convicted criminals to choose it if they so want, but that there aren't a lot of states actually using it. Most of it is by lethal injection, and I'd say that there are probably more humane ways than that to kill a person if you're going to do it. Nitrous oxide asphyxiation seems like a pretty painless way to me, and probably a hell of a lot less expensive.
A medieval theocracy that still beheads by sword
So the US is a medieval theocracy that murders with volts?
I believe that there are three different claims being made in the statement:
Saudi Arabia is a theocracy
Saudi Arabia is medieval
Saudi Arabia uses "beheading by sword" as a method of capital punishment
I don't see a claim that "beheading by sword" makes Saudi Arabia a medieval theocracy, so it does not logically follow that the United States would be a medieval theocracy that "murders with volts".
According to https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Religion_in_Saudi_Arabia Saudi Arabia is a theocracy. Depending upon one's point of view, there are aspects of Saudi Arabian society that appear to not have progressed beyond what Europe practiced in the European medieval period. Saudi Arabia does use beheading as a method of capital punishment https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Capital_punishment_in_Saudi_Arabia.
So the claim that "Saudi Arabia is a medieval theocracy that still beheads by sword" seems to me to be based on a set of independent facts. I don't see evidence of a claim that the manner of execution determines whether a nation-state is a medieval theocracy.
We are neither medieval or a theocracy. This kind of a moral equivalency is a rot in this country. We do not dismember people for saying mean things about the government.
To get the Saddam treatment.
SA always had the same laws as the IS. Yet they were America's best friend in the region.
Because their leaders obeyed the USA.
Who here remembers when Saddam was America's best friend aka henchman in the region?
Suddenly he became "the new Hitler" literally over night. Only beause he stopped obeying, and attacked Quwait instead of Iran as he was told to, because he was tired of losing. That is literally all that changed. He already was an asshole before.
And why did he keep losing? Because Iran had the third or fourth largest military in the world.
And why was that?
Because Iran got the same treament before!
Does anyone remember, when *Iran* was the USA's best friend in the region? "As a stronghold against communism." (As if the Russian dictatorship wasn't a big enough enemy of communism themselves. Stretching out the "transition phase" ad infinitum.)
Then, the Iranians suffered so much under their US puppet dictator, that they fell for religion, and in their desperation, chose a religious nutjob. Which would be like the USA having a literal revolution, to install the WBC, just to get rid of Trump.
Bam, they were the new Hitlers.
Why do you think with recently taking Russia out lf the convenieg enemy figure closet again, suddenly they try to get along with Iran again, just when a new US-friendly leader jumps out of nowhere.
So now it's Saudi Arabia's turn. To be turned back into a desert wasteland.
Did they get too cocky? Or is it simply that China bough the oil instead and became their new oil best buddies, and now that the USA got more oil-independent, the old SA shit does not fly anymore?
Oh well... at least it will be the the USA's very first actual blow against terrorism. ;)
Which will come back to bite them, once the Russia scarecrow is all used up again, and they realize, that idiot TrumpObamaBush emptied the closet.
This isn't really news for those who pay attention.
We suffer more in our imagination than in reality. - Seneca
They way jerked the rag under Elon Musk shows they are not to be trusted. Tell him, "I am the final authority, I approve, let us do the deal at 419$", Elon, "what about 420?". "OK deal". The idiot tweeting prematurely was probably not part of the plan, just an additional unexpected bonus.
sed -e 's/Chuck Norris/Rajnikant/g' joke > fact
Whataboutism is a propaganda technique first used by the Soviet Union, in its dealings with the Western world.[1] When Cold War criticisms were levelled at the Soviet Union, the response would be "What about..." followed by the naming of an event in the Western world.[2][3] It represents a case of tu quoque (appeal to hypocrisy),[4] a logical fallacy that attempts to discredit the opponent's position by asserting the opponent's failure to act consistently in accordance with that position, without directly refuting or disproving the opponent's initial argument.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Whataboutism
Shutting down free speech with violence isn't fighting fascism. It IS fascism!
9/11 hijackers were from Saudi Arabia.
And 100% of the perpetrators of the OKC bombing were Americans. So were 100% of successful US President assassins. Are we supposed to hate all Serbians because 1 Serbian started WW1?
The only thing necessary for evil to triumph is for it to be pitted against a slightly greater evil
The US gets very little oil from the ME. We protect shipping routes mostly. Lefties still working from 1970s data.
We don't get much oil from Saudi Arabia, but they are an important counterweight to Iran. Iran is our enemy because ... umm, we need an enemy because ... well, we spend $610B a year on weapons and we need to justify that somehow.
Iran wants WAR
that the accusation of whataboutism is itself a form of tu quoque fallacy, as it dismisses criticisms of one's own behavior to focus instead on the actions of another, thus creating a double standard. Those who use whataboutism are not necessarily engaging in an empty or cynical deflection of responsibility: whataboutism can be a useful tool to expose contradictions, double standards, and hypocrisy.[126][127]
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Whataboutism
9/11 hijackers were from Saudi Arabia.
The hijackers were people that opposed the Saudi ruling family, and especially opposed America's alliance with KSA, and the presence of infidel American troops in the Arabian Peninsula.
I never understood why so many people support, visit, and defend that country
Really? Do you understand how car engines work?
Hint: They aren't powered by the battery.
They are also a 5% owner of Tesla, and apparently Elon Musk has discussed further investment with them and also selling the company to them. I guess he likes those guys.
maybe if jury duty payed more it would not suck.
Try full min wage + free meal + full IRS mileage + parking (or full travel costed covered)
The last time I had it the pay just really only coved the public transport costs to get there.
Comparing the US judicial system to the SA Sharia system is like comparing apples to nuclear warheads. Your false equivalency is a prime example of the type of bullshit that has empowered the mob rule. And the mob seems incapable of understanding that their mindless sloganeering, over the top hyperbole, and general idiocy will draw a response just as mindless by those on the other side. If you are incapable of being honest in your criticisms then you would be better off shutting the hell up.
I agree that the mob are morons, but what makes you so much better? And who gets to decide who's better anyway? To me, you look like a tyrant and a mob too, for example.
And how the hell does a grown person still not realize the contradiction in a "representative leader"? Do they lead? Which means they tell others what to do. Or do they represent? Which means following what others tell them to do.
They are simply tyrants who try to justify their tyranny by saying that they represent someone.
The only case where that is true, is with lobbyist politicians, that are corporate employees, being put into political positions. But they only represent their owners, of course. And those are the leaders.
In any case, you desperately need to look up what a democracy is. Because the tyranny of the majority is its whole damn point. If you don't like it, that's OK, but don't act like you don't dislike democracy then.
Yeah, fuck your cognitive dissonance. Sideways. With a wire brush.
the beheaded had a trial too
Wasn't the case for Princess Mishaal bint Fahd
Pain is merely failure leaving the body
*sigh* And this in a time when one doesn't even have to go outside to get information and learn things.
USA have a variant of representative democracy where people elect leaders which in term can elect others (current example: supreme court judges). And that is one type of democracy. You may be thinking of direct democracy where people directly vote for different alternatives, or more likely of some variant of an anarchy (the political use of the word).
But really spend some hours, search and learn. It's interesting.
This. Can't upvote.
Juries are easily swayed by expensive lawyers.
Perhaps even more frequently by crooked prosecutors?
Ezekiel 23:20
You really have to be ignorant if you think that is some recent invention. ... Oh, it's DNS-and-BIND. Yeah, as I wrote: really ignorant.
We are neither medieval or a theocracy.
If you aren't, it's not for a lack of desire by certain influential portions of the population.
Ezekiel 23:20
And the US at least has pockets of sanity. Our constitution makes theocracy explicitly illegal (though I'm aware of growing movement to institute one, our current VP is a Dominionist for example...). There's several states that have abolished the death penalty (though we haven't had the strength of character to do it nationally).
Yeah, we've got our share of problems, but that doesn't make anything the Saudis do any better. If you want to find a fault in us it's that we continue to sell them weapons and help them bomb schools in Yemen...
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The latter is mob rule and tyranny of the majority.
Meanwhile here we are suffering tyranny of the minority, ala Trump.
Give Trump another term and we will be.
Mac
but is this gonna change how anyone votes? Donald Trump just said the quiet part out loud. He walked it back because it made him look weak, not because it was a morally reprehensible thing.
/.ers depend on (we're an aging demographic, so we got pre-existing issues alright). So far none of this has budged polls. There might be a bit of a shake up in the mid terms, but only because voters traditionally hand the other side the house just to balance things out. And even then those voters are voting for the more conservative candidates out of the other side, so it's all much the muchness.
This keeps happening too. Paul Ryan has repeatedly called to privatize Medicare for anyone under 55 (being careful not to risk votes of current seniors). Net Neutrality is dead. There's a serious challenge to the Affordable Care Acts protection of pre-existing conditions which I know many
So is anyone going to drastically change who their vote for, or start voting consistently when they didn't bother in the past? Is this or anything else above enough to change voting behavior?
Hi! I make Firefox Plug-ins. Check 'em out @ https://addons.mozilla.org/en-US/firefox/addon/youtube-mp3-podcaster/
Also, the US is a Democracy, not a theocracy.
Yet. The U.S. is not yet a theocracy. However, based on their actions, Republicans, and their Evangelical Judases, are working very had to change that.
Ignoring all the purple prose (what's the agenda there?), a thinking person really ought to come up short at the phrase "unlikely benefactor". Hard short.
Perhaps I have a superior education, but I would have filed this under: I'll take extremely obvious things for 500, Alex. Consider: one of the largest nest eggs in human history recently celebrated their golden gooses 65th birthday party. Certainly not dead yet, but unmistakably slowing down. Early-bird dinner discounts. That kind of thing.
Optimistically, the Saudi's have about twenty-year grace period to diversify 75% of their existing economy. This in an economy where perhaps 10% of the Saudi nationals know how to hold down a full time job at Standard Global Capitalism Workaholism Level 3. (Even the French are at level 4.)
If you haven't seen the big Saudi diversification coming, I'd be suing your educational institution. They can't have taught you anything useful, at all, ever.
Whataboutism is a propaganda technique first used by the Soviet Union, in its dealings with the Western world.
I really, really doubt that Whataboutism was first used by Soviet Union.
It is not just Trump and his merry band of tax cheats. The tyranny is supported hook, line, and sold soul by the Evangelicals. They are the U.S.'s Taliban. They are just as mindlessly religious in their intolerance and given half a chance, they'd be happy to lock up anyone who doesn't parrot their beliefs. The U.S. gets all funky over the Chinese treatment of the Uighurs, but where is the outrage from the Evangelicals over the U.S.'s tent camp for children of illegal aliens? Where is the outrage over separating families? Where is the Evangelical push to fund aid and development programs for the countries in C. America that are the source of these migrants?
Just where are the Evangelicals? Where is their Christian faith now that they cannot be Christians given how badly their souls have been blackened by supporting Trump?
Democratic republics do exist. In some countries, democracy and the people are valued so highly that they are even used in the official name of the country. Mild examples include the German Democratic Republic and People's Republic of China. But there's only one Democratic People's Republic of Korea.
Escher was the first MC and Giger invented the HR department.
>A medieval theocracy that still beheads by sword
So the US is a medieval theocracy that murders with volts?
Does the manner of execution determine whether or not you are a medieval theocracy?
The subject of your message is "Who murders more of its own?". Yet you have completely neglected to address the issue instead choosing to focus entirely on loaded language used by the author.
Per capita US performs about 1.4% percent of the executions conducted by KSA.
Saudi Arabia uses Sharia Law, and the "jury" consists of educated clerics who are far less likely to be sway by appeals to emotion.
Wow you managed to find something worse than a jury. "appeal to emotion" is pretty much the definition of religion.
SJW n. One who posts facts.
Murder is a legal definition. Outside if law there is no murder. Just animals killing animals. Also it's kinder to kill someone then to twist who they are through forced condition until they are but a Shadow of themselves. Is more ethical to let someone die as themselves then to twist them into your own privately acceptable monster
Nobody really questions where investment money comes from but surely even a 5 year old can join the dots - which ethical groups have millions of dollars to chuck around on 1000/1 bets?
Although you're marked troll at this point, I stand with you.
The evangelicals want to push their concept of morality on the US at every turn. They ignore so much to get ostensible anti-abortionists like Kavanaugh onto the SCOTUS, pathological narcissists for President, and just genuine haters at so many political points that I find them as gruesome as the Saudis in many areas. The anti-LGBT fundings (Thank you, LatterDayDudes), support for anti-healthcare, 1%er tax cuts, it's truly appalling. Are these the Pharisees or the Christians? Tough to tell.
The Saudis, like the 1%ers, pay people off. Launder their ill-gotten gain in tech. Ignore the inevitable climate change caused by manmade sources. Then they pat themselves on the back, believing themselves the hand of God, which they are not.
---- Teach Peace. It's Cheaper Than War.
Does the manner of execution determine whether or not you are a medieval theocracy?
No. Saudi Arabia is a medieval theocracy. Saudi Arabia uses beheading in capital punishment.
Correlation is not causation.
Can you even imagine America executing a Trump or Clinton?
Prior to 10 to 15 years ago, no. But at the rate things have been going, I can see it happening in the next 5 to 10 years. The wing nuts have been getting ever crazier and have gotten very efficient at stirring up more people than I would have ever thought possible. The media has also gotten very good at giving the masses just enough information to scare the shit out of them, but not enough to make an informed decision. Even the weather channel hypes anything they can.
If they always return a guilty verdict that would be 100% compatible with not being "sway[sic] by appeals to emotion".
It doesn't exactly sound just and fair, though.
Confucius say, "Find worm in apple - bad. Find half a worm - worse."
The things you can be executed for is a good indication of the theocracy part.
The method determines whether it's medieval or not. Modern theocracies use electricity or chemicals to do the job.
Confucius say, "Find worm in apple - bad. Find half a worm - worse."
Saudis dont ignore climate change. They support it enthusiastically.
Their current climate sucks. Any change would be an improvement.
All the models show that a warming planet will cause more rains in Saudi and green the desert.
It would be stupid for Saudis to be against climate change.
**Life is too short to be serious**
I mean, your accusation that the GP is using an accusation to distract from the original accusation is just another fallacy, right?
Anonymous Coward, am your father’s brother’s nephew’s cousin’s former roommate!
But I'll make it simpler. A straw man is a straw man. Anything used to distract from the central point. The central point here is that Saudi Arabia is a brutal regime that cannot survive on it's own merits and as such uses violence and murder to retain power. Rather than address that the Great Grand Dad called the US out. That's a straw man. Setting something up to be attacked. And it doesn't change a damn thing about Saudi Arabia.
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Nope. Democracy doesn't mean anti-anything, except those groups that aim to uproot its core values and freedom, not even religion.
Your problem is the 2-party system, which frankly, according to game theory become a one party system converging on itself and strangling all possible wider spectrums.
Any sane people would demand more parties.
Saudi Arabia uses Sharia Law, and the "jury" consists of educated clerics who are far less likely to be sway by appeals to emotion. Several members of the royal family have been beheaded.
As long as you don't mind issues of religion/honor/etc having a much higher priority than whether the accused is in fact guilty of the charge, yeah it's great.
Why do so many people think that if something is bad, anything different must be inherently better? It's like we've collectively forgotten that something bad can always be made even worse.
Nobody did it before then. The Soviets really pioneered corroding a society from the inside out with propaganda. They were innovators and trailblazers. Since their own society was a murderous hellhole, their chief weapon was to accuse others.
Shutting down free speech with violence isn't fighting fascism. It IS fascism!
The article selection is rather poor and simplistic. The relationship between Western Governments and the Saudi's goes back now some 100 years to the founding of Saudi Arabia and is much, much more complex than described involving two world wars and the later discovery of oil.
Saudi money, both from government and private sources, has been poured into Western Economies and businesses for decades. When I worked there in the early 90's, the owner of the business I worked for, a long-established import company, had his personal financial assets invested in the UK and the US and his children educated overseas. He understood that he only operated in business while he was on the right side of the ruling family and ensured that if it all went pear-shaped he would be financially secure in London for example. And he was just one of many, many businessmen who did the same thing.
Really? Go there and attempt to set up a Church. See how far that gets you.
Pardon? I don't think you would get too far if you were setting up a Christian church. Setting up a mosque, on the other hand, would probably work (as long as it was the right sort of mosque).
Given the British only entered the war to protect the sovereignty of Belgium from an unwarranted German attack I think you're talking nonsense.
Juries are easily swayed by expensive lawyers.
Perhaps even more frequently by crooked prosecutors?
I think it goes a bit further than crooked prosecutors. The whole system stinks, and as it rewards those currently in power, don't look for them to expend an ounce of effort to change it.
The underlying point of all this noise is that in America, notwithstanding what is SUPPOSED to be the case, the entire criminal "justice" system is run for and by the government with the end in mind of maintaining order, by which I mean the order in which those in power stay there. The notion that a jury-trial is really and truly a trial by a jury of your peers is a fig-leaf behind which America hides the fact that while fairness is the stated goal, (sometimes called justice, but, I mean, come on now...) it's not the outcome nearly as often as it should be. Case in point, the top to bottom way in which if you're rich enough, you can just about get away with murder, contrasted with if you're a member of a disenfranchised and relatively powerless and oppressed minority, you can be murdered for selling loose cigarettes, a form of tax-evasion, unless I'm very much mistaken, while the people running the freak-show in what pretends to be our federal central government is and has been for years just choc-full of tax-cheats, tax-dodgers, scam-artists, etc., and it goes back WAY before the clown-prince of America got installed as the phony puppet play-prez.
Oh, and by the way... I dearly love how people pretend that there's something barbaric about executing someone with a sword, (which when done properly is probably just about the closest thing you could have to a quick, certain, and humane execution and relatively inexpensive too,) while murdering a citizen in what pretends to be some species of democracy or republic allows the same thing to happen using cocktails of drugs not designed for this purpose, hangings, firing squads, electrocutions, etc. There's no "couldn't find a vein" with a beheading. There's no "whoops, everyone missed, except for a couple of guys, who managed to shoot the condemned in the nuts". There's no, "wow, I can't believe the rope BROKE," or "goodness, look at him twitch, I don't think the noose broke his neck and now he's strangulating". There's no "insufficient voltage" with a beheading, either. In fact, that was the whole point of the guillotine, to take the strength and skill required to behead OUT of the operation. With a properly trained and capable headsman, it's over instantly. Yet people whine and cry about how it's brutal and barbaric... no, the fact that the state is murdering one of its own citizens is what's barbaric. The beheading, (versus all else,) is just having distaste for the TACTIC, the METHOD used and frankly, it shouldn't be hidden behind closed doors, squirreled away behind all the bureaucracy and bullshit. If you're going to murder someone on behalf of all the people, they should get to watch, up close, and in person. Better still, they should HAVE to watch, and if they don't like that, let them demand politicians change the law so that we can stop murdering our own people, and pretending it's anything other than murder.
Also, on a related note, the death penalty only really applies to everyone around the condemned. The condemned doesn't suffer anymore after the execution, no matter how badly you botch it, or how long it takes. So if someone fucked up badly enough to deserve society's worst punishment, KILLING that person is really letting him or her (or them, etc.,) commit some heinous and infamous crime, and skate on the punishment, assuming he or she or they were even GUILTY of the crime in question, meanwhile, if you're wrong you can't undo it, and also the real perpetrator goes free to do it again. Further, while you murder someone for whatever alleged crime, s/he/y (shey?) committed (or didn't,) that person's/those people's family/ies suffer from that loss, and they themselv
Our reign has gone on long enough. Indeed. Summon the meteors.
I wouldn't be surprised to hear that the clerics apply the laws rationally and fairly. The problem is what the laws are in the first place.
A double standard might be unfair or immoral, but it's not a logical fallacy.
Whataboutism seeks to prevent discussion of X, by interrupting with accusations of Y any time X is mentioned.
There should be plenty of time to discuss both X and Y. What's incompatible with logical argumentation is seeking to prevent discussion of X altogether.
They kidnapped US diplomats the last time they had a chance, they blew up hundreds of US soldiers last time they had a chance, they still make "Death to America a common slogan. I think the burden is on them to show they are no longer the US's enemy.
That's speculation, with little evidence other than - ironically - her confession.
Maybe you should talk to your employer about their civic duty. My employer - like many - pays me my full salary during jury duty.
Foolish people, being born into corrupt societies.
I imagine they are about as fair as a typical United States judge. There are probably bad apples, but the big concern is without juries-of-peers, the law is intrinsically skewed towards the powerful class, because only the powerful judge the law.
We all know this is a diversionary tactic. Changing the subject is one of the oldest, most effective in the book. Highly obvious to spot, and dead easy for any 10 year old to deploy. Why all the gymnastics in an attempt to justify it as a legitimate tool of debate?
Too many decades late for that. :/
Ezekiel 23:20
Saudis dont ignore climate change.
Right, it's their exports that ignore it.
Bad Arabian crude!
And doublespeak isn't a thing.
I wish Trump would call them out on it.
"Sure, Iran hates the USA. But, they hate the Sauds even more!" "Damn shame if we don't provide weapons, and the ones China and Russia can provide are surely to be bugged in Iran's favor in a period of conflict"
Yeah, good luck!
Life is not for the lazy.
Last time they had a chance? Those events took place in 1979 and 1983, not long after the US helped overthrow their democratically-elected government and put a dictator back in power.
We've done more to them than they ever have to us.
whataboutism can be a useful tool to expose contradictions, double standards, and hypocrisy.
Whataboutism is nothing more than a universal tool rationalize bad behavior.
If I've done something wrong, address that issue with me. If you've done something wrong, I'll address it with you. Those two actions are orthogonal. One doesn't affect the other. One doesn't justify the other. Hypocrisy doesn't make bad behavior good. Correct yourself, and SEPARATELY, pursue correcting the action of others.
The favorite Whataboutism today in the US is "what about the Clintons" or "what about Obama". You know what? Rs you are in power now. They control the entire government including of course the justice dept. Go after the Clintons and Obama. Stop using them as an excuse. Put them in jail.
It's the same as 'pre-Snowden' and 'pre-wikileaks' dump of diplomatic cables.
Everyone who is dealing with Saudi knows they are an open enemy of the US, but until Turkey called foul and claimed to have evidence the world could play pretend.
Before wikileaks dumped the diplomatic cables *everyone* know about CryptoAG and that the US was listening in.... but embassy's could pretend and hope that it wasn't as bad ... or perhaps the the leaks were overblown, or ... but the cable dump removed all doubt and nobody could pretend it away.
Before Snowden *everyone* knew the NSA was hoovering up data and recording phone calls all over the world, including us domestic calls of us citizens that were illegal according to their mandate, but Snowden's document dump with the help of some US frenemies was enough to remove all reasonable doubt that the NSA was in fact going far beyond it's mandate routinely illegally collecting data.
So post Kashoggi all doubt about the fate of people disappeared has been removed and there is no pretending that they voluntarily disappeared or went into hiding.
To be frank Islam as practiced throughout the middle east is a problem. Islam has many problems .. principally it is resistant to ideological reformation that would make it compatible with modern western civilization. In contract pre-1700 Christianity [after multiple reformations] was itself ill suited to modern western civilization. Core Islamic doctrine still presents a strict divide between 'Muslim' and 'Non-Muslim' where the 'Non-Muslim' is of strictly lesser value https://www.answering-islam.or...
In contract a Muslim living in a western society is still afforded fully equal status.
I feel, in this conversation, that some of us, myself included, have perhaps focused on a point so closely that a bigger issue is being ignored, and I hope we can keep this in mind as we hear more bits of news about a certain aspect of this story:
One. Whatever you may think of people who report news professionally that seems to be or maybe even IS written from a perspective contradictory to yours, unless and until one deliberately publishes something as if it is fact, that he or she knows, or reasonably should know to be false, that person IS a journalist, and therefore part of a cadre of heroes who often risk their lives so that we, the people of the world can be informed on what has happened and IS happening in their world. As knowledge is power, without their reporting, we are powerless, helpless, and at the mercy of those who DO know.
Two. Inasmuch as journalists are often unsung heroes, and public servants in the broadest sense when their reporting is made available to the general public so that we CAN be informed, we should resolve therefore that crimes against journalists, and those who work in direct support of journalists and in the furtherance of journalism, are crimes against humanity.
... because they are.
Three. Inasmuch as journalists’ calling is to hold the powerful to account, and to speak truth to power, and keep us appraised of what is happening, no such person as is being reported on is or should be in a position ever to decide whether any journalist is telling the truth or not, or if he or she should be punished, penalized, sanctioned, persecuted or prosecuted for any part of that journalism. That responsibility is the exlusive rightful purview of the journalistic community itself, and the readers, listeners and watchers of the product of that journalism. We should not tolerate any abuse of any kind, or even the threat of said abuse to our journalists, because those are injurious to us as well.
Four. We who consume the news, who benefit from the fruits of their reporting, should help fund it. By our funding it, we ensure the reporters work for us, and not someone else. We should agree that any who pay for no news should not benefit FROM the news, unless they are earnestly unable to pay, so destitute as they are. Each of us who cares about reporting should do at least one thing to support journalism financially, according to what we are capable of doing, and in proportion to how valuable knowing the facts IS.
So if you don’t care, feel free to get your news from aggregator websites and megalithic corporate-run “news” organizations, and let those who pay for the advertisments thereon decide what you get to know. If you care, however, may I humbly suggest that if you are not already doing so, that you subscribe to your local paper, or donate to an independent news source not owned by people who have a vested interest in keeping you in the dark.
Just wanted to put that out there.
Our reign has gone on long enough. Indeed. Summon the meteors.
Mine does as well, but I don't think this should be put upon all employers, especially small businesses, that can barely scrape by.
Just another day in Paradise
Why would you imagine that? As fair as you can be when judging religious dogma.
Just another day in Paradise
Sorry, equating Evangelicals with Taliban is trolling. And I don't even like Evangelicals.
Just another day in Paradise
While Evangelicals are a vocal minority of Republicans, they are still a minority. The rest of us on the right wish they would STFU.
Just another day in Paradise
The fact that you think Trump wants a theocracy makes you delusional. He's only interested in the Evangelical's votes.
Just another day in Paradise
You overthrew their government and replaced it with a dictator. And shot down their civilian planes and gave the guy who did it a medal.
I'm not arguing with most of your points, and yet they pale in comparison, and you can't seem to see the difference.
Just another day in Paradise
Did you read what I said? Climate change is good for the Saudis. As well the Russians and the Canadians. Climate change is only a problem if you are happy with your current climate
**Life is too short to be serious**
There is every reason to believe that Bernie Sanders would. He has consistently said he would stop Arms sales to Saudi Arabia and has put forth bills to do just that.
You could argue that once he's in power he won't do that, but again, based on his voting record (not just what he said) I would expect that he would do just that. Now, if you gave him a right wing Congress that could override him then he wouldn't do it, but unlike Obama it wouldn't be for lack of trying. Moreover, if you want results you can't just put one guy in one position (the Presidency) and expect results. If you want reform you've got to vote the bums out. All of them.
FYI, it's still worth voting even if you can only get rid of some of the bums. Otherwise you end up with a gov't entirely composed of bums and they screw you over like nobody's business. Still, it could be so much better if we got rid of all of them. And it's not hard to spot them bums either. Just ask, do they take corporate pac money? If the answer is yes you're dealing with somebody who's been bought out. A bum.
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Religion is part of the law in a theocracy. Fair judgement of religious doctrine is fair judgement of the law.
Why would you imagine otherwise?
Well, I suppose that's a fair opinion. I was looking at it from the viewpoint of it being unfair to women, non-heterosexuals, non-Muslims, etc.
Just another day in Paradise
That's speculation, with little evidence other than - ironically - her confession.
Who witnessed her confession? There was no trial, no record of her being questioned.
The killings weren't done by an official executioner nor in the town square.
Family members took the princess & her alleged lover to a car park, emptied a clip into her while the man watched and then needed 5 blows with a sword to cut off his head
Pain is merely failure leaving the body