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'Google Isn't the Company That We Should Have Handed the Web Over To' (arstechnica.com)

Iwastheone shares a report from Ars Technica's Peter Bright: With Microsoft's decision to end development of its own Web rendering engine and switch to Chromium, control over the Web has functionally been ceded to Google. That's a worrying turn of events, given the company's past behavior. Chrome itself has about 72 percent of the desktop-browser market share. Edge has about 4 percent. Opera, based on Chromium, has another 2 percent. The abandoned, no-longer-updated Internet Explorer has 5 percent, and Safari -- only available on macOS -- about 5 percent. When Microsoft's transition is complete, we're looking at a world where Chrome and Chrome-derivatives take about 80 percent of the market, with only Firefox, at 9 percent, actively maintained and available cross-platform.

The mobile story has stronger representation from Safari, thanks to the iPhone, but overall tells a similar story. Chrome has 53 percent directly, plus another 6 percent from Samsung Internet, another 5 percent from Opera, and another 2 percent from Android browser. Safari has about 22 percent, with the Chinese UC Browser sitting at about 9 percent. That's two-thirds of the mobile market going to Chrome and Chrome derivatives. In terms of raw percentages, Google won't have quite as big a lock on the browser space as Microsoft did with Internet Explorer -- Internet Explorer 6 peaked at around 80 percent, and all versions of Internet Explorer together may have reached as high as 95 percent. But Google's reach is, in practice, much greater: not only is the Web a substantially more important place today than it was in the early 2000s, but also there's a whole new mobile Web that operates in addition to the desktop Web.
Google has deployed proprietary technology and left the rest of the industry playing catch-up, writes Peter. The company has "tried to push the Web into a Google-controlled proprietary direction to improve the performance of Google's online services when used in conjunction with Google's browser, consolidating Google's market positioning and putting everyone else at a disadvantage."

YouTube has been a particular source of problems. One example Peter provides has to do with a hidden, empty HTML element that was added to each YouTube video to disable Edge's hardware accelerated video decoding: "For no obvious reason, Google changed YouTube to add a hidden, empty HTML element that overlaid each video. This element disabled Edge's fastest, most efficient hardware accelerated video decoding. It hurt Edge's battery-life performance and took it below Chrome's. The change didn't improve Chrome's performance and didn't appear to serve any real purpose; it just hurt Edge, allowing Google to claim that Chrome's battery life was actually superior to Edge's. Microsoft asked Google if the company could remove the element, to no avail."

331 comments

  1. Isn't that blatantly by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Anticompetitive?

    1. Re:Isn't that blatantly by should_be_linear · · Score: 2

      Yes, but EU is only one party that really cares, so you should simply flood everybody with proprietary and anti competitive garbage and see what sticks. Balmer's Microsoft lives on as Alphabet corporation.

      --
      839*929
    2. Re:Isn't that blatantly by Joce640k · · Score: 2

      a) Anybody else remember the "DOS ain't done until Lotus won't run" days of Microsoft.

      b) Microsoft could have pushed out an update to Edge in a matter of hours if they really wanted to. This is just a pot calling a kettle 'black'.

      --
      No sig today...
    3. Re:Isn't that blatantly by stealth_finger · · Score: 2

      Microsoft asked Google if the company could remove the element, to no avail

      Couldn't microsoft have patched edge to ignore it?

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    4. Re:Isn't that blatantly by Narcocide · · Score: 5, Funny

      They could, but then fixing their own mistakes purely to benefit others would violate their "Lawful Evil" character alignment and they would receive an experience penalty.

    5. Re: Isn't that blatantly by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      We did not hand the web over to google. They would like you to think you handed the web over to them but they are full of baloney

    6. Re:Isn't that blatantly by quenda · · Score: 1

      It is Evil.

    7. Re: Isn't that blatantly by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      How about themes? There was no need for all those Mozilla themes although they looked great. Really the way the gravity tag was used in any theme was amazing

    8. Re: Isn't that blatantly by zilym · · Score: 0, Flamebait

      Last time I checked, Google provides the source code to their web browser under a permissive open source license, which enables EVERYBODY to make use of their work under any OS you like. Contrast that with Microsoft and their proprietary closed source Edge browser that only runs on their Windows 10 keylogger OS.

      Google is hands down the company we should hand the web over to, if we have to hand it over to any company at all. Firefox is fine and dandy, but it still has poorer performance compared to Chromium if you ask me. Both browsers are open source, so why beat yourself up using the slower one?

      If YouTube really tweaked their HTML slightly to push users away from adopting Microsoft's crappy Edge browser, I say fantastic!! NOBODY (outside of Microsoft) wants to see us back in the bad old days of Internet Explorer predominance and being forced into using Windows as a result.

    9. Re: Isn't that blatantly by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      One could just use safari. Safe, compliant, fast. Need I say more?

    10. Re: Isn't that blatantly by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      You didn't check very well then...

      Chrome is not Chromium. Chrome is not open source. Chrome has no source code availability either for its closed source features OR the code it takes from Chromium

      You are confusing (as Google intended) Chrome and Chromium as most uninformed users do. Pretty typical of the level left here at Slashdot really. Lots of opinion, no actual knowledge...

    11. Re:Isn't that blatantly by beuges · · Score: 5, Insightful

      Not really, no. Most websites these days are entirely driven by javascript, so an empty div could be filled with content at some random point in the future, and only the site developer can say for certain if the div can be safely ignored or not. Meaning that Google, as YouTube's owner, can know if that div can be ignored, and optimize it away, but nobody else can. And since it appears to serve no purpose, and YouTube refuses to remove it, one can only conclude that its presence is deliberately there to sabotage benchmarks of other browsers.

      I also noticed a lot of comments on the other discussion around this topic that Edge had coded specifically to YouTube's HTML structure, and the added div broke that. That's extremely unlikely, because websites change all the time, and it would be very silly to depend on actual HTML structure. What is more likely is that Edge uses hardware acceleration for videos, but the presence of an element over the video canvas means that there could be content that must be overlaid on top of the video. Meaning that the video can't be hardware accelerated any more, as any overlaid elements must be rendered in software. So MS is actually doing the right thing here by dropping to software rendering.

      The only real benefit of Edge switching to Chromium internally is that Google won't be able to do all of the browser-specific tricks that it puts in all of its sites to make the experience crappy everywhere except Chrome.

    12. Re: Isn't that blatantly by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      >_ Google is hands down the company we should hand the web over to, if we have to hand it over to any company at all.

      100% agreed. Their internal struggle about "alternative" values and how some guy cannot have the Freedom to have prejudice is even more proof of that -- though nothing is perfect, of course (e.g. regarding some reports on molestation).

      >_ Firefox is fine and dandy, but it still has poorer performance compared to Chromium if you ask me.

      We're going to agree again on "normal" shelf-available new PCs and notebooks.

      If we're talking about already bought ones, those who are on the tables of the 99% -- well, Firefox runs better. IIRC, Chrome won't even run at 32-bit.

      And if you own a less than 2GB RAM computer with slow I/O, you will want to move around as few bytes as possible -- and 32-bit is very useful for that. The only scenario I can imagine it would not be so is when you got an absurdly fast CPU on which decompression is a breeze -- and it's still dependent on benchmarking.

      Microsoft has a claw-like grasp of many environments -- like e.g. professional workshops. Edge was even hijacking the PDF file type, preventing Adobe from opening. Even toggling things to its former convention wasn't that easy. Microsoft stomped on so many competitors that I cannot feel sorry for them.

      They have an example to follow: IBM. And it would take decades to recover some community respect -- and mind you, IBM's overtake of RedHat is still seen suspiciously after all these years of genuine Linux support.

      Now, regarding Chrome domination, IMHO it's not about Google, it's because of the way human beings are. Most will go with the pack, avoiding thinking or deciding for as long as possible.

      Chrome is most used because it's most used. How did it start? Possibly because it worked better with Google's Search, Gmail, Translator etc. But that is no longer the case. Firefox (at least on Linux!) has also some important advantages.

      Now Windows has a similar approach regarding Office. And yet, some competitors like Libreoffice have also important advantages.

      One cannot really complain about market domination when there are good alternatives. But we can and should complain when someone makes using existing alternatives impossible -- e.g. via IT policies.

    13. Re:Isn't that blatantly by stealth_finger · · Score: 1

      Surely they can see if a tag or class or whatever is empty and safely ignore it? If it has something there then don't. Unless there's more to it that 'potential future use' and I am certainly no browser developer but it seems a faitly easy fix. I guess google can break the fixes faster than MS can make them though. What MS should do is put something in windows that can detect when you go to youtube.com and have it crash your computer then blame google for it XD

      --
      Wanna buy a shirt?
      https://www.redbubble.com/people/stealthfinger/shop?asc=u
    14. Re: Isn't that blatantly by zilym · · Score: 1, Interesting

      I never made any reference to Chrome, who gives a f*** about Chrome? I was talking about Chromium. Chromium runs every bit as good as Chrome as far as I can tell, and actually, Chromium is better than Chrome, since third party developers can tweak and optimize it. For example, there is a Snapdragon optimized version of Chromium that outperforms Chrome (on Android). And there is an ad blocking/tracker filtering browser based on Chromium called "Brave" that I find very useful too.

    15. Re: Isn't that blatantly by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      And only available on Apple. I'll stick with Chromium/Brave on Linux, thank you very much.

    16. Re:Isn't that blatantly by war4peace · · Score: 1

      Not really, no. And the dumbasses who say "sure they could" can't tell a bulldog from a bulldozer, from a web development perspective.
      Web standards exist for a reason.

      --
      ...gis sdrawkcab (usually not responding to ACs; don't bother posting as AC)
    17. Re: Isn't that blatantly by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Billy bullshit child throws a tantrum when his bullshit is pointed out

      Good job child

    18. Re: Isn't that blatantly by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      What does Chrome have that Chromium doesnâ(TM)t given the rendering engine is LGPL?

      Also remember itâ(TM)s the work of KDE and then Apple, so Safari will always provide a rival engine thatâ(TM)s open source too.

      P.S. I am a happy Firefox user

    19. Re:Isn't that blatantly by Cmdln+Daco · · Score: 5, Interesting

      What Microsoft should do is build adblocking into Edge at the deepest levels. To block all of Google's advertising content.

    20. Re: Isn't that blatantly by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      "Google is hands down the company we should hand the web over to"

      There is some goo on your chin you should raise your hand and clean off.

    21. Re: Isn't that blatantly by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      I'd love to use Firefox but it's so damn slow on Android. The rendering is sluggish when scrolling or zooming and sometimes just loading a page takes longer than other browsers. I use Brave on Android.

    22. Re: Isn't that blatantly by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Why is this an issue. People can use any browser they like. I use Firefox only now on my phone and computer. If you don't like the browsers out there write your own!

    23. Re:Isn't that blatantly by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 4, Insightful

      a) Anybody else remember the "DOS ain't done until Lotus won't run" days of Microsoft.

      b) Microsoft could have pushed out an update to Edge in a matter of hours if they really wanted to. This is just a pot calling a kettle 'black'.

      Like fucking hell it is.

      Microsoft never actively aided a murderous totalitarian government in suppressing their population.

      It's one thing to go beyond the law in trying to gain market dominance.

      It's another fucking thing entirely to help a government with a history of killing the better part of one hundred million people in controlling their people's thoughts.

      Microsoft was naughty.

      GOOGLE IS FUCKING EVIL

    24. Re: Isn't that blatantly by jenningsthecat · · Score: 5, Insightful

      Microsoft stomped on so many competitors that I cannot feel sorry for them.

      You are TOTALLY missing the point. This isn't about feeling sorry for one grasping, domineering, monopoly-seeking corporate behemoth or another. It's about preventing ANY of them from controlling the web and/or the Internet.

      --
      'The Economy' is a giant Ponzi scheme whose most pitiable suckers are the youngest among us and the yet-unborn.
    25. Re: Isn't that blatantly by Narcocide · · Score: 2, Insightful

      There's no way in hell that overlay should have been crippling hardware acceleration. It was a bug. Blame whoever you want for exposing it, but don't pretend it wasn't a bug in Edge.

    26. Re: Isn't that blatantly by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Donâ(TM)t worry nobody will be using it. Plenty of competition

    27. Re: Isn't that blatantly by Zero__Kelvin · · Score: 1

      There is only one problem with your claim. The idea that anyone has "handed the internet over to Google" is preposterous.

      --
      Guns don't kill people; Physics kills people! - John Lithgow as Dick Solomon on Third Rock From The Sun
    28. Re: Isn't that blatantly by Zero__Kelvin · · Score: 1

      Of course they could have fixed their broken code, but then how would they get so many people who are clueless to start saying "Google bad; Microsoft good"?

      --
      Guns don't kill people; Physics kills people! - John Lithgow as Dick Solomon on Third Rock From The Sun
    29. Re:Isn't that blatantly by stealth_finger · · Score: 1

      Nice.

      --
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    30. Re: Isn't that blatantly by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Buggy, slow and written but the most vile tech company in existence. NO thanks.

    31. Re: Isn't that blatantly by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Yes, you do. Like..."behind on many web technologies", "updates tied to the OS"

    32. Re:Isn't that blatantly by WhoBeDaPlaya · · Score: 1

      That's what Pi-hole is for!

    33. Re: Isn't that blatantly by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Well put.

    34. Re:Isn't that blatantly by fustakrakich · · Score: 1

      Aren't there alternatives to youtube?

      --
      “He’s not deformed, he’s just drunk!”
    35. Re: Isn't that blatantly by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      We can't all be as clueless as you.

    36. Re: Isn't that blatantly by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      I call it a superior rendering engine.

    37. Re:Isn't that blatantly by drinkypoo · · Score: 1

      "Aren't there alternatives to youtube?"

      Not really. None of the other streaming services which permit user upload have a significant percentage of eyeballs. There are other video sites, but all of them are actually more restrictive than YouTube.

      --
      "You're right," Fisheye says. "I should have set it on 'whip' or 'chop.'"
    38. Re: Isn't that blatantly by zidium · · Score: 1

      Spotify is the best they've ever done :-(

      --
      Slashdot Valentines Beta Massacre: iT WORKED! The boycotts killed Beta!!
    39. Re: Isn't that blatantly by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      So.... how does Chromium do hardware decoding with that tag there?

      Honestly, it is BS to say they cannot do HW decoding with an overlay present. Haven't you ever seen a 3d game where a video was being rendered in-scene and you could walk around corners that would occluded portions of the video?

      The idea that Edge could not render the whole frame in HW and overlay anything over the video seems crazy to me. But, maybe Microsoft didn't have their most innovative developers working on Edge.

    40. Re:Isn't that blatantly by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Who needs a pi-hole when Ublock Origin and Privacy Badger block everything AND allow for an easy white list if you feel sorry enough for a beggar crying for money on the internet?

    41. Re:Isn't that blatantly by iampiti · · Score: 1

      It will also Microsoft the boatloads of work and thus money that takes to create a modern web browser engine. Anyway, I'm sad the decided to stop developing their own engine because that leaves only two: Chromium and Gecko (Mozilla's one)

    42. Re: Isn't that blatantly by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      you misspelled "marketing system"

    43. Re: Isn't that blatantly by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      But they said 'dont be evil'

    44. Re:Isn't that blatantly by Immerman · · Score: 1

      >easy white list if you feel sorry enough for a beggar crying for money on the internet?

      You mean the people producing the content you want to see? Since when is someone trying to get paid for the work you obviously appreciate a beggar?

      --
      --- Most topics have many sides worth arguing, allow me to take one opposite you.
    45. Re: Isn't that blatantly by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      So there's Edge, and everyone else is !Edge

      It just happened that Edge is not numero uno

      For your viewing pleasure, copy-and-paste youtube link https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4L5LjjYVsHQ&list=RDp6XZwHAqjxA&index=21

      to help you understand

    46. Re: Isn't that blatantly by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Why trolling and google fanboiism? Your google stock dropping lately?

      Scumbag.

    47. Re:Isn't that blatantly by fustakrakich · · Score: 1

      None of the other streaming services which permit user upload have a significant percentage of eyeballs.

      Not youtube's fault. If there's a problem, people need to find/create a solution. I don't know, maybe complaining gets better results. Certainly is easier.

      --
      “He’s not deformed, he’s just drunk!”
    48. Re: Isn't that blatantly by piojo · · Score: 1

      There's no way in hell that overlay should have been crippling hardware acceleration. It was a bug. Blame whoever you want for exposing it, but don't pretend it wasn't a bug in Edge.

      I've not done much bare metal graphics programming, but isn't their a clear difference between something which is on top (can render directly to the screen) and something which isn't on top and so needs depth testing and/or compositing before it is rendered in the final form?

      If I'm correct, I consider the problem not a bug but an opportunity for future optimization. A transparent HTML entity could be detected and ignored as a special case, but I would not call that part of the core feature, considering that most entities aren't transparent.

      --
      A cat can't teach a dog to bark.
    49. Re: Isn't that blatantly by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      I consider 99% of the internet to be like an idiot standing on a street corner and yelling at the top of his lungs. Then he looks at you and says "I see you. You looked at me. You heard me! Give me money!".

    50. Re:Isn't that blatantly by apoc.famine · · Score: 1

      Serious question here: Youtube has started to interrupt videos with ads now in a way that I don't seem to be able to block with NoScript/Ublock Origin. Can Pi-Hole catch and block these, or are they in-line enough with the video that it can't?

      I haven't deployed Pi-Hole on my home network yet, but I'm starting to lean that way given these latest irritations.

      --
      Velociraptor = Distiraptor / Timeraptor
    51. Re:Isn't that blatantly by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      That actually would make me use Edge. I use firefox because of its ad blocking plugins and I don't want to give google even more power by using chrome. I don't use Edge because it does not have plugins.

    52. Re:Isn't that blatantly by drinkypoo · · Score: 1

      Not youtube's fault. If there's a problem, people need to find/create a solution. I don't know, maybe complaining gets better results. Certainly is easier.

      There are lots of people. Some of them become aware of a problem when others complain. Most people have little influence on most situations save for their voice. Public opinion can shift both public and private policy; examples abound. Ironically, you're complaining about complaining. Why? What do you hope to accomplish?

      --
      "You're right," Fisheye says. "I should have set it on 'whip' or 'chop.'"
    53. Re:Isn't that blatantly by hey! · · Score: 1

      Well, yes. But people can't wrap their brains around the fact that they only way to ensure that companies compete with each other is regulation.

      Armchair capitalists believe in a world where businessmen eagerly leap into commodity price battles for the consumer's dollars, but those of us who've actually run a business know damn well that what you try to do is lock your customers in and lock your competitors out. Anything you can do to avoid competition that is legal, you do. And by "legal" I mean de facto legal. Rules that aren't enforced might as well not exist.

      "Selling a commodity" is practically business cant for being incompetent and unimaginative. It's for suckers. Captive customers is what every business wants, and over time the more competent businesses will get them. And once you're safely extracting easy profits from those customers, you look for ways to use them as a lever to extend the markets you control.

      Google's leveraging its position in the uploaded video market to exclude Microsoft from competing in the browser market is exactly what any unregulated company would do. In fact, it's exactly what Microsoft did for many years. And IBM before them.

      --
      Post may contain irony: discontinue use if experiencing mood swings, nausea or elevated blood pressure.
    54. Re: Isn't that blatantly by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      No, you went to his site of your own accord. You actively sought what he was offering. Don't be a freeriding douche.

    55. Re: Isn't that blatantly by Immerman · · Score: 1

      With the notable difference being that the internet is client-driven, so that nobody can even whisper at you unless you explicitly ask them too (Or somebody you have asked offers them a soapbox)

      If you don't like the idiots asking you for money, stop asking them to yell at you.

      --
      --- Most topics have many sides worth arguing, allow me to take one opposite you.
    56. Re: Isn't that blatantly by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Chromium doesn't support some DRM features, which can be problematic for streaming service use.

    57. Re: Isn't that blatantly by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      You are aware that Europe has produced some of the largest mobile phone companies, largest Internet switchgear companies, and two of the largest companies providing service for mobile phones, or one of the major Linux distributions ... It may not have Google or Microsoft or Amazon, but then each of those contains smaller companies in Europe bought up by those giants. And T-mobile bought up companies in the USA, and some in the USA objected.

      To some extent it is about critical mass, as the USA represents a large single market, with primarily a single language, which allows companies to grow based on the regional market before getting to the point where they can aquire other firms. Long term this might change as other areas become able to support domestic markets to a sufficient size to then allow them to become truly global. I expect this will happen over the next decade.

    58. Re: Isn't that blatantly by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1

      Bing is available in China....

    59. Re:Isn't that blatantly by fustakrakich · · Score: 1

      Sorry, got too used to what's happening on the political scene. Complaining hasn't done a damn thing there. And youtube still dominates despite the well publicized chronic problems. Is inertia really that powerful? When looking at the numbers, most of the complaining looks more like theater. The follow through is absent. Decade after decade, the same people are still running the show, more popular than ever.

      The thing is that youtube is still the most convenient outlet for monetizing the cat videos. There isn't really much more to read into it. I don't expect anything more than noise until somebody else becomes more convenient. The headline says it best. "Google isn't the company that we should have handed the web over to." Is that proper grammar?

      --
      “He’s not deformed, he’s just drunk!”
    60. Re: Isn't that blatantly by reanjr · · Score: 0

      A better product than the competition. What is Google doing in Chrome that locks out MS from doing the same thing? This is about MS not being able to compete, because they can't get their shit together on why they even have a browser anymore. I'm sure the Chrome team (including open source Chromium) is massively larger than the Edge team. Just because MS can't or won't compete, doesn't mean Google is anti-competitive.

    61. Re: Isn't that blatantly by reanjr · · Score: 1

      Ha! I think it's hilarious you don't think MS makes changes for the Chinese market to allow spying.

    62. Re:Isn't that blatantly by drinkypoo · · Score: 2

      And youtube still dominates despite the well publicized chronic problems. Is inertia really that powerful?

      YouTube only exists because Google had extra capacity in their cluster. Today I presume it takes up a significant slice of their resources, but at the time it was minor. It came into being and was viable because Google already had the equipment in place and functioning, and making money. In order to do the same things on the same scale, a potential competitor has to be in a similar position. When you combine the technical and economic hurdles with the first mover advantage, the hill appears to just be too hard to climb.

      TL;DR: yes.

      With that said, there's room for competition to come from markets where YouTube is artificially constrained, like China. They can build themselves up there, and then if China ever goes full capitalist they can burst out and become competition. But out here in the Rest Of The World where YouTube is free to operate more or less at will? There's little to no chance.

      --
      "You're right," Fisheye says. "I should have set it on 'whip' or 'chop.'"
    63. Re: Isn't that blatantly by reanjr · · Score: 1

      32 bit? What is this, 1999? It boggles my mind how long it is STILL taking for Windows users to upgrade to 64 bit.

    64. Re: Isn't that blatantly by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      You said "their web browser", not the project they base their browser off of.

      Ask 99 people what Google's web browser is, I'd be willing to bet you would get 99 answers of "Chrome" and not one saying "Chromium".

    65. Re:Isn't that blatantly by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Sad that the state of technologists today is to buy a device to place a DNS server with a blocklist like the thing is a magic black box.

      It wasn't so long ago people were still building their own routers and firewalls. Now a tiny bit of code that can run on anything, including your laptop that you take with you, is being sold as a sort of product to buy, install preconfigured software, and place in your home.

      People that use those things know enough to think they understand how computers work but not enough to make them do what they want.

    66. Re:Isn't that blatantly by foradoxium · · Score: 1

      Edge does have extensions. IE does not.

      I would still use Firefox over Edge. But I always install ublock just in case I need to use Edge for something.

    67. Re:Isn't that blatantly by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      "Web standards exist for a reason"

      To be embraced, extended, according to the history of web standards.

      When has any browser faithfully supported all web standards? If that were the case we wouldn't have to test on different browsers.

    68. Re:Isn't that blatantly by hawguy · · Score: 1

      a) Anybody else remember the "DOS ain't done until Lotus won't run" days of Microsoft.

      b) Microsoft could have pushed out an update to Edge in a matter of hours if they really wanted to. This is just a pot calling a kettle 'black'.

      Could they? Is this something that they could have just worked around with a simple code patch, or would it have broken other sites if they did it as a generic fix ("allow hardware acceleration if there's an empty HTML element over the video"), or if they put in a specific fix for Youtube, would Google have just changed it until it escaped the detection by Edge, yet still broke the hardware acceleration? Website changes can be pushed out in minutes, software patches across hundreds of millions of consume and business owned devices can take months if not years, so MS would lose any game of catch up.

    69. Re:Isn't that blatantly by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Replace murderous totalitarian government with murderous government and you have the USA; but Google is still evil.

    70. Re:Isn't that blatantly by Anubis+IV · · Score: 1

      I actually just deployed pi-hole this last week for the first time (rather than buying new hardware to run it, I'm using it via Docker on the Windows box we use as our Plex server), and while the answer seems to be that it used to block those YouTube ads, right now it doesn't. At least not out of the box. There are various block lists that people have compiled that you can add to your pi-hole deployment, but blocking YouTube ads via pi-hole is a moving target, since YouTube is serving the ads up from the same servers that serve the videos, meaning that pi-hole can't easily distinguish between them.

      It's still worth it, since even with content blockers (uBlock and/or uMatrix, depending on user) in all of our desktop OS browsers, we're still seeing nearly 10% of network requests getting blackholed by pi-hole. I imagine most of those are ads in mobile apps and mobile browsers.

    71. Re:Isn't that blatantly by fustakrakich · · Score: 1

      There's little to no chance.

      Then it's up to all us to make the chance. The whole flock can turn on a dime. Inertia is personal too.

      --
      “He’s not deformed, he’s just drunk!”
    72. Re:Isn't that blatantly by philmarcracken · · Score: 1

      >Microsoft was naughty

      Ah, short memories. Japan was developing its own OS and systems ages ago to fully support their language, had everything ready for delivery to their schools and universities until microsoft pressured the US gov. They hit japan with sanctions until they stopped.

      Just a bit 'naughty' hey.

    73. Re: Isn't that blatantly by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      > It's about preventing ANY of them from controlling the web and/or the Internet.

      Oh, nice. You came and killed all the Indians (American natives) you could find.

      Now Mexicans come around and you call them aliens. Sure, it's important to preserve sovereignty. But, please do tell me, why wasn't it important when you were killing natives?

      1. Google is fast and competent;
      2. Microsoft sold us cheap things which didn't and still don't work well (which is arguably better than Apple, but that is beside the point);
      3. Google does most as open source and moves to get new protocols widely used -- including on competing browsers... Microsoft is even planning to use the Chromium base for the next Edge;
      4. MS DOES THE SAME! Ask the Libreoffice guys or anyone who needs LO to open old Word docs.

      In summary, cry me a river.

      Call me when I can run MS Office officially on Linux. And BTW, these Microsoft soap operas are taking the place of legitimate important news. Can we have less Microsoft over here, please?

    74. Re: Isn't that blatantly by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Sounds like a benefit to me. I don't want to have anything to do with DRM encumbered crap. If Chromium doesn't support DRM features, great! Now we just need to get the rest of the people on the Internet to shun DRM and we'd really have something.

    75. Re: Isn't that blatantly by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Oh no, if only there was some way to accommodate a hidden empty html element.

    76. Re:Isn't that blatantly by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Try clipgrab.org (open source, multiplatform Qt based video downloader). Download the video to disk and play it with VLC without any advertisements or interruptions.

    77. Re:Isn't that blatantly by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Google also aid another murderous government that pretends to spread democracy but start wars around the world while pretty openly serves elite 0.1%. So yes, Google is evil.

    78. Re:Isn't that blatantly by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      It's too bad they didn't have a parser that could go through the CSS and check for empty divs and ignore them. But including some sort of CSS parser in a web browser would be crazy, right?

      The fact is that Microsoft super-optimized Edge for YouTube. The moment anything on the site changed, the optimization breaks and Edge starts eating up battery life again. That is not a sign of a well-designed browser that saves battery life. That's a sign that they wanted to cheat on a benchmark.
       

    79. Re: Isn't that blatantly by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      > 32 bit? What is this, 1999? It boggles my mind how long it is STILL taking for Windows users to upgrade to 64 bit.

      Dude, Windows users don't have *any* choice. They what they feed into them.

      Linux users OTOH can and do choose 32-bit often.

      Also, where did you get the notion that 64-bit is an upgrade from 32-bit?

      Do you also think a big car is an upgrade over a medium-sized one? Or do you buy larger clothes in case you get fat?

      Use only enough resources to solve your problems. That is the hacker thing to do.

      64-bit where 32-bit is enough has a name: "superfluous". Unless you're doing climate forecast or cinema-level animation, please, get real... you have no need for 64-bit and you're buying it because Marketing brainwashed everyone that buying a larger equipment is more "macho". Works not only for the CPU, but also amount of RAM, HD size etc.

    80. Re: Isn't that blatantly by jenningsthecat · · Score: 1

      There is only one problem with your claim. The idea that anyone has "handed the internet over to Google" is preposterous.

      "Handed it over" or "stood watching and did nothing while they rolled it up and took it". To-MAY-to, To-MAH-to.

      --
      'The Economy' is a giant Ponzi scheme whose most pitiable suckers are the youngest among us and the yet-unborn.
    81. Re:Isn't that blatantly by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Correction: They never actually released their censored search tool, so that's hardly "actively aiding". And if it's "fucking evil" to aid China (e.g. by way of a positive trade balance), then the whole world is fucking evil.

    82. Re: Isn't that blatantly by reanjr · · Score: 1

      There are so many improvements in AMD64 beyond the memory addressing. It is absolutely an upgrade.

    83. Re: Isn't that blatantly by Mathinker · · Score: 1

      So I suppose you never click on hyperlinks when using the internet? Isn't that a bit extreme?

      How do you discover the content you are looking for, is there some kind of paid service you use which vets links for you? Or is your browsing very limited in scope?

      I can't imagine using the net like that.

    84. Re: Isn't that blatantly by Immerman · · Score: 1

      Part is probably a reasonably well-tuned filter bubble that knows I'm looking for substantial information, as well as a refusal to waste my attention on obvious trash and click-bait, no matter how compelling it seems. Which probably helps with the filter bubble, come to think of it.

      But more to the point - I don't blame others for yelling at me, when I can only hear them when I go looking for what they were yelling about.

      --
      --- Most topics have many sides worth arguing, allow me to take one opposite you.
    85. Re:Isn't that blatantly by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      > Not really, no. Most websites these days are shit because they're entirely driven by javascript.

      Fixed that or you.

  2. It's IE6 all over again by Opportunist · · Score: 3, Insightful

    But at least this time the browser we have to work around isn't bundled with the OS we have to work around. So it might not be as bad as it used to be back then.

    --
    We used to have a Bill of Rights. Now, with the rights gone, all we have left is the bill.
    1. Re:It's IE6 all over again by misnohmer · · Score: 3, Insightful

      It's bundled with "the internet" instead. Google search, google YouTube, Gmail, are a very large percentage of internet traffic. If using a different browser means not being able to use any Google sites, people will not use it. That is why Edge moved to Chromium.

    2. Re:It's IE6 all over again by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 2, Insightful

      It's not? Tell that to the far majority of all Android users.

    3. Re:It's IE6 all over again by should_be_linear · · Score: 1

      Of course it is in the OS. Actually, it will be in both Windows and Android OS, leaving iOS as only major player without Chrome (with google tracking, privacy trashing URL-bar)

      --
      839*929
    4. Re:It's IE6 all over again by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Except this time it is Google that is evil.

    5. Re:It's IE6 all over again by AmiMoJo · · Score: 3, Interesting

      Edge moved to Chromium because Microsoft doesn't see the value in continuing to develop its own rendering engine. What benefit does it bring them?

      Despite decades of trying and being the default they still can't make a popular browser. Edge has a severe lack of good add-ons and Chromium brings them instant compatibility with most of the Chrome/Firefox ones. They already tied themselves to that mast with Visual Studio Code (which is built on Electron, which is Chromium).

      They lost that fight years ago. Edge was the last ditch attempt, and it failed.

      --
      const int one = 65536; (Silvermoon, Texture.cs)
      SJW, n: "Someone I don't like, and by the way I'm a fuckwit" - AC
    6. Re:It's IE6 all over again by misnohmer · · Score: 3, Interesting

      If that was true, they would simply sunset Edge and start shipping Windows with Chrome or Firefox. They didn't. They still want to be in the browser game.

    7. Re: It's IE6 all over again by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      It is guaranteed to backfire on google. When you are evil, you tend not to notice all the stupid things you are doing

    8. Re: It's IE6 all over again by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Just dont use chrome and they will have to eat their own evil

    9. Re: It's IE6 all over again by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1

      How is Google being evil here? They give you a free web browser that runs fast and is supported on every OS known to mankind. They give you free content to look at on YouTube. They give you free email, calendar, etc. Then they even provide the source code to their web browser under an open source license so that anyone, include those snivelling rat bastards at Microsoft, can leverage Google's hard work for whatever purposes you see fit. And if that's not enough for you, they even provide the majority of the funding for the only other open source web browser that has a chance of being useful, Firefox.

      Yes, Google is too big and powerful and could become extremely evil at any moment. But they aren't the ones being evil here and now.

    10. Re: It's IE6 all over again by Cmdln+Daco · · Score: 2

      So, they've bought up the whole town, as you show. How altruistic of them. They get massive amount of control and domination in the process. Nobody ever gives that much away for 'free.'

    11. Re:It's IE6 all over again by MightyYar · · Score: 1

      Aren't they mostly Samsung users? That comes with Samsung Internet (which has ad blocking).

      --
      W..w..W - Willy Waterloo washes Warren Wiggins who is washing Waldo Woo.
    12. Re: It's IE6 all over again by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 2, Interesting

      Microsoft are getting lazy, there is no evil here. They want to use the open source community for as much as possible while sunsetting any products they canâ(TM)t open source for cheap labour.

      Compare Visual Studio 2010 to 2015 and above, notice how one is using an entirely proprietary streamlined stack and the other is promoting cross platform open-source that isnâ(TM)t even Windows-optimised all over the place?

      Microsoft already maintain code for electron as part of Microsoft Teams, they basically already have to optimise their services for Chromium... why would EdgeHTML be necessary? Heck, give it a couple of years and theyâ(TM)ll retrofit IE functionality into Chromium powered Edge by leveraging IETab style functionality.

      They just donâ(TM)t wanna tell their shareholders the truth. The truth is that Microsoft are cross-platforming all their stuff, moving as many people as possible to their cloud services and preparing to dump the bulk of Windows out to the open-source community so they can get all the rewards for less work. Of course, like Apple, they will make sure enough remains proprietary for as long as possible to keep the license money rolling in...

    13. Re: It's IE6 all over again by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1

      Chromium doesnâ(TM)t have tracking. Also, iOS uses WebKit as much as Chrome does, the only difference is a fork in the process model, to which iOS devs have the right idea (keep it lightweight and using far less RAM with clever SSD caching tricks)

    14. Re:It's IE6 all over again by Kiuas · · Score: 1

      They still want to be in the browser game.

      Yes clearly but not necessarily for profit reasons: they possibly just deemed that for Windows brand-reasons the OS still needs to ship with an 'MS' browser because that's part of the brand of the OS.

      I mean, it's very likely that Edge makes Microsoft next to no money. They could move to Chrome or Firefox and arguably make more money if they made a deal with one of the 2 so they'd get paid some amount for including said browser as the default one, but again: this is likely not about the money for them.

      Apple has its own browser. Google has its own browser. MS does not want to be seen as a lesser player for not having one of their 'own', even though their own is a ripoff of one of the existing one's and one that nearly no-one uses.

      That, or they're holding off the switch to one of the 2 others while they pit the 2 against each other behind closed doors over who will pay them more.

      --
      "It is the business of the future to be dangerous" -Alfred North Whitehead
    15. Re: It's IE6 all over again by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      You don't pay for it because you're not the customer, you're the product.

    16. Re: It's IE6 all over again by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      What âoeripoffâ are you referring to?

    17. Re:It's IE6 all over again by mjwx · · Score: 1

      If that was true, they would simply sunset Edge and start shipping Windows with Chrome or Firefox. They didn't. They still want to be in the browser game.

      Microsoft is trying to follow it's old Embrace, Extend, Extinguish philosophy but has lost the ability to do the "Extend" part, let alone achieve the "Extinguish" part.

      Basically this is how Microsoft admits defeat, it recreates the thing it rallied against for years in a very poor way. Powershell was the biggest example, for years they cried that the GUI was superior to the commmand line... Now all their GUI tools just issue Powershell commands. MS is too proud to kill its terrible browser, so it's going to just reskin someone else's good browser and pretend they haven't given up.

      --
      Calling someone a "hater" only means you can not rationally rebut their argument.
    18. Re: It's IE6 all over again by iampiti · · Score: 1

      Well, the bit about the engine being open source is not because they're just nice it's because it's based on an open source engine (KDE's KHTML) and so they're forced to release whatever modifications they make

    19. Re:It's IE6 all over again by nine-times · · Score: 1

      Also the rendering engine is open source and standards-compliant (more or less, anyway). That means there's a much lower barrier to someone simply using an alternative, or making a new alternative that works exactly the same way. So it's really not the same at all.

      I'm not a huge fan of Google, ultimately, but this isn't anywhere near the sort of problem that Microsoft represented in the past few decades. It's not even as bad as the problem Microsoft currently represents, the way businesses remain locked into the Windows platform.

    20. Re:It's IE6 all over again by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      They still want to be in the browser game.

      Indeed. The sensible conclusion would be that MS want to be out in front with apps and services. They'll start with Chrome and add on to it for Windows users.

      The problem isn't Google owning the Internet. The problem is with any company trying to take over. There are numerous megalomaniacal, small-minded companies trying to do the same as Google. Google just happens to be the most dangerous right now. Adobe have tried to make the Internet proprietary with Flash, PDF and AIR. Microsoft have tried to do it with IE, ActiveX, Silverlight, etc. Facebook, too, is dangerous and small-minded.

      In a 2005 Business Week interview, Steve Ballmer proclaimed, "We will rule the Web!". What struck me was that it was a proud boast. He wasn't embarassed to express such a greedy, small-minded motive. Rather, the Web for him was merely a business competition.

    21. Re: It's IE6 all over again by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Google has an effective monopoly on internet search. They charge exorbitant amounts to companies to advertise, and in today's world, this is not a choice. That monopoly allows them to make gobs and gobs of money some of which they spend on goodwill bribing of the public. This is no different then when MS had a monopoly on DOS and used their gobs and gobs of money to destroy Lotus, WordPerfect, at al.

    22. Re: It's IE6 all over again by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      None of it is free. They are hoovering up every last available bit of your privacy. The fact you don't realize that is what is truly scary.

    23. Re: It's IE6 all over again by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      The goal is that the web functions well, which again makes it more likely that people use the web. Google has a substantial presence on the web, so people using the web more tends to give more income.

    24. Re: It's IE6 all over again by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      They wage psychological warfare on millions of people every day. Google is evil.

    25. Re:It's IE6 all over again by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      > Despite decades of trying and being the default they still can't make a popular browser.

      I disagree, whilst bundling IE back in the day into the OS was deemed disagraceful, anyone who remembers netscape will remember how shite it was. IE won because it was simply better and was simply more popular.

      Firefox eventually took the crown for a similar period of time, and now Chrome has.

      It seems clear that the browser crown has been held by IE, Mozilla, and Chrome but only for what, 6 - 8 years at a time? It seems clear that browser preferences despite being stable for extended periods absolutely CAN change.

      The biggest qualm I have with Chrome at the moment is it makes it too hard to block ads on mobile and yet that's where ad blocking is needed the most due to battery life and screen space.

      I think Chrome will fall, it only grew because it simply ended up as less bad than the alternatives - IE didn't improve enough, Firefox became buggy, pro-ad industry, anti-user, unstable, and slow, but Chrome even on the desktop has it's flaws, not having basic things like a scrollable tab bar and age, making it hard to ad-block on mobile, and so on and so forth make it almost certain that someone will trump Chrome with a user friendly browser again at some point, and it's possible that that will in itself be a Chromium spin-off such that Google loses control of Chromium to a branched alternative.

    26. Re:It's IE6 all over again by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      If that was true, they would simply sunset Edge and start shipping Windows with Chrome or Firefox. They didn't. They still want to be in the browser game.

      Yes, they want to be in the browser game but not the rendering engine game.

      It's too bad they didn't decide to go with Firefox's rendering engine.

    27. Re:It's IE6 all over again by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      They won that fight years ago. They were the king of the mountain.

      They could have held that title, if they had done what the end-users wanted: make their browser standards-compliant. Microsoft saw non-compliance as the best way to shut out competition and stay king. Of course people hate vendor lock-in and split once there was a viable alternative.

      Simple assholery is why Microsoft lost all that it had won.

      We will be saying similar things about Oracle before too long, as well.

    28. Re:It's IE6 all over again by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Google of ten years ago is maybe the company we should have handed things over to. Google of today, which wants to emphasize generating profit isn't

    29. Re:It's IE6 all over again by dwywit · · Score: 1

      Every domestic install of W10 that I do pops up edge at first login.

      An impressive display of three dials, firefox, edge, and chrome, showing some value of "speed". Edge in the middle and largest, of course. "Edge is the best" and all that BS.

      Only it's not true. I gave up comparing edge with the others when it consistently took longer to even start, let alone render pages - even microsoft.com pages. Must have been all that telemetry it was busy gathering and sending.

      Edge is just a tool you can use to download your browser of choice. It even reminds you that you've chosen another browser by making you click another choice when attempting to switch defaults.

      --
      They sentenced me to twenty years of boredom
    30. Re: It's IE6 all over again by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      You're trying to make it sound like Google would not provide open source for their web browser engine if they had a choice. But you fail because Google DID have a choice: they could've avoided KDE's KHTML engine in the beginning and gone proprietary like Microsoft was doing with IE and tried to do with Edge. They could have bought out Opera and started their work with a closed source proprietary engine. Google had a choice and they made an excellent decision that won out in the end.

    31. Re: It's IE6 all over again by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Oh I know about it. And yes, it's very scary. But given the choice between Microsoft's closed source, Windows 10 keylogging Edge browser and Google's open source Chromium derivatives (I use Brave), the choice is really pretty easy.

    32. Re:It's IE6 all over again by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      It's already here. I use Brave. Built-in ad blocking and tracking disabling. Based off of Chromium.

    33. Re:It's IE6 all over again by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      It's bundled with "the internet" instead.

      s/the internet/the google/

      Give it time.

    34. Re: It's IE6 all over again by misnohmer · · Score: 1

      Did you miss the part about sabotaging Edge hardware accelerated video playback with an empty HTML overlay, purely so that Edge could not be more power efficient than Chrome? Or do you consider this one of the free benefits you listed, maybe frame is as a free "keep you warm for the holidays" by forcing Edge to use more power, of forcing you to use Chrome and heat up your laptop by using more power?

    35. Re:It's IE6 all over again by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      The only reason to use Edge was that it rendered faster in some instances with less resource use such as reading large PDF files. There is literally no reason to use Edge after the engine is changed.

    36. Re:It's IE6 all over again by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Instead of moaning about how you cant block adverts on mobile for just one app, try this to block all the adverts in all the apps

  3. Turd fight by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    I hope Google and Microsoft fuck each other up.

  4. A transparent div? by bickerdyke · · Score: 2, Informative

    Edge got derailed with a transpartent div on top of the regulat content?

    As it's used to right-click-block the download image option since decades? Or as annoying ad popup? Really?

    Then it may have been a good idea to cancel edge.

    --
    bickerdyke
    1. Re:A transparent div? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1

      The transparent div is simply one example of the things Google is doing to “break” user experience with Google-controlled apps when accessed by a non-chromium browser. So no, that div is not the sole reason Edge was cancelled.

    2. Re:A transparent div? by K.+S.+Kyosuke · · Score: 1
      They don't even know themselves what to think of it...

      that was added to each YouTube video to disable Edge's hardware accelerated video decoding

      For no obvious reason, Google changed YouTube to add a hidden, empty HTML element that overlaid each video.

      Pick one?

      --
      Ezekiel 23:20
    3. Re:A transparent div? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      The obvious fix: Just discard transparent items. If they can't be seen, they should have zero click area too. Thus it is an element with no effect whatsoever, and the browser should go on to do whatever it'd do if the element hadn't been there in the first place.

      Captcha: snuffer
      How appropriate.

    4. Re:A transparent div? by Dan+East · · Score: 5, Insightful

      You're understating things just a bit. It's over a multimedia video element, not "regulat content" (sic) or an image (to try and block context menus). Sure, to the layperson it's all just "regulat content", but from a technical perspective there is a vast difference between a static image or rendered HTML and a bitstream of billions of pixels being drawn per second.

      When there is nothing to render over top of a video viewport you can easily invoke hardware level rendering, which is already integrated within the OS's windowing system to make sure windows appear on top of one another as they should. The latter is relatively easy with a window type UI because each window is well defined and rectangular, so tracking what is on top of what isn't too difficult. When you get into the mess that is HTML that sort of thing becomes extremely difficult. Are you going to give that div its own rendering context at the hardware level so that it renders over top of the video layer properly? But then what if there are 20 divs over top of that video? You'll run out of GPU memory quickly on lower end machines.

      Yes, it was a bit of a kludge that Edge uses hardware rendering only for a totally unobstructed video element, but it was a simple solution for a specific use case that worked well in almost all cases and resulted in better battery life and better rendering quality because the GPU is designed to efficiently do that decoding / rendering.

      It was definitely a jerk thing for Google to do. The timing of this story is a bit ironic as I set up a friend on Google Docs yesterday on a lower end HP Stream laptop. Google Sheets just wouldn't function right in Edge in a nearly empty, newly created document. Simply inserting a column resulted in it grinding away for minutes. I installed Chrome and it worked flawlessly. That kind of thing doesn't just happen by accident with these modern browsers. Google is being a monopolistic-minded jerk.

      --
      Better known as 318230.
    5. Re: A transparent div? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Your "obvious fix" would break a lot of web apps. There are legitimate reasons to put transparent divs overlaying other screen elements.

      Better for the browser to maintain standards compatibility rather than try to get tricky with handling elements.

    6. Re:A transparent div? by bill_mcgonigle · · Score: 1

      The comment claims that Microsoft couldn't keep up with fast-moving changes on YouTube. The biggest question in my mind is why why was the Edge team understaffed to such a degree that they couldn't track say, the hundred most popular websites, and keep them working well? That seems insane for a company the size of Microsoft with a technology as supposedly mission-critical as Edge. You're talking like, a million dollars a year total additional spend to have a relevant top-tier web browser.

      It seems more likely that Microsoft has had plans to standardized on Electron for longer than we suspected, and was just keeping Edge alive for pretenses. From what I've seen, the Edge code is actually pretty clean, and was a reasonable engineering effort.

      --
      My God, it's Full of Source!
      OUTSIDE_IP=$(dig +short my.ip @outsideip.net)
    7. Re:A transparent div? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      As someone who did web development, this wouldn't work. If a browser decided to do this as a general rule, it would break so many sites that people would stop using the browser.

    8. Re:A transparent div? by butzwonker · · Score: 1

      I'll go with the first one.

    9. Re:A transparent div? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1


      It was definitely a jerk thing for Google to do. The timing of this story is a bit ironic as I set up a friend on Google Docs yesterday on a lower end HP Stream laptop. Google Sheets just wouldn't function right in Edge in a nearly empty, newly created document. Simply inserting a column resulted in it grinding away for minutes. I installed Chrome and it worked flawlessly. That kind of thing doesn't just happen by accident with these modern browsers. Google is being a monopolistic-minded jerk.

      I just created a nearly blank Google Docs sheet in Firefox. It works flawlessly, and I can insert columns and rows without issue. What you're saying is possible, that Google is doing this intentionally. I'm not really sure that makes a lot of sense though. It's at least as equally likely that inserting the blank html was simply an innocuous mistake in Youtube, and the Edge problem is just a problem with Edge.

    10. Re:A transparent div? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Nope. It's just Microsoft once again not implementing standards and crying about it.

    11. Re:A transparent div? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      I'll go with the first one.

      I'll go with #2, because they don't have a clue. However someone with some small technical ability, like the GGP, might.

    12. Re:A transparent div? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1

      And yet Chrome seems to have no problem at all ignoring an empty DIV and using hardware rendering.

      You could call it a dick move by Google. But what they did didn't break any HTML compliance. If Edge used a robust HTML compliant engine it would have optimized an empty DIV out as a non event and continued on with hardware rendering. Like it should of.

      The Edge HTML engine (like all MS products) was built on a deck of cards of "exception" conditions stacked one on top of the other. MS knows this. There's no fix other than to throw it away and start from scratch, again.

      Blaming Google is just good PR for a crappy in house product.

    13. Re:A transparent div? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      The timing of this story is a bit ironic as I set up a friend on Google Docs yesterday on a lower end HP Stream laptop. Google Sheets just wouldn't function right in Edge in a nearly empty, newly created document. Simply inserting a column resulted in it grinding away for minutes. I installed Chrome and it worked flawlessly. That kind of thing doesn't just happen by accident with these modern browsers.

      How did it fare on Firefox? If they both run Sheets fine and Edge doesn't, I'd have to lean towards Edge being the problem and not Google.

    14. Re:A transparent div? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      The timing of this story is a bit ironic as I set up a friend on Google Docs yesterday on a lower end HP Stream laptop. Google Sheets just wouldn't function right in Edge in a nearly empty, newly created document.

      Friends don't let friends use Windows.

  5. On the plus side, webstandards get adopted quicker by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Things like animated PNG, webasm (I guess), future css revisions will all be the 'de-facto' standard and approved by all these companies (MS, GOOG, OPERA, etc)

    This means, that there will FINALLY be no more coding for (BROKEN FUCKING BROWSER X, Y or Z) which, frankly, is worth it.

    So yes, one engine to rule them all. Welcomed. Oh, and open source too. WIN.

    So stop worrying and crawl back under your rock.

  6. Re:net neutrality by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0
    No, actually, we are not OK with the six criminal gangs you name. We are also not OK with having government by the idiots, for the idiots.

    However, "get in our 4x4's with a hoard of guns and ammo and kill 'em all" is not a strategy we favour, and little else seems to work.

  7. competition by Tom · · Score: 5, Interesting

    Chrome itself has about 72 percent of the desktop-browser market share.

    Which is one reason why I stick to Firefox, until it becoms entirely unusable. We've had this problem before with IE and we didn't learn from it?

    Competition is a funny thing. On paper we all understand that a free market economy only works properly if there is enough competition on both sides (yes, customer monopolies are a real thing as well). Yet the same people who are so much for free markets are so much against regulation when it comes to curb monopolies, despite a monopoly is more damaging to a market than any government regulation short of a full planned economy could be.

    Because companies do not like competition. This is a built-in paradox of the capitalist system: The system needs competition, but the players within it desire to have as little competition as possible, and thus markets have a tendency to drift into monopoly (a lot of tech) or oligopoly (the energy markets are good examples).

    Internet and information technology are especially easy victims. The nature of information makes it so that distribution costs are near zero, so the sunk costs of product development dominate, which means that it is surprisingly difficult to break a market dominance once established. At the same time the dominance is fragile and can be broken, even by a newcomer. It's just a very hard thing to do.

    The big tech companies, meanwhile, have figured out how to entrench themselves. The thing that the MS monopoly didn't get: User data. Once you own your customers social media profile (FB), or media collection (Apple) or mail, search and communications history and personalisation (Google), their cost of switching to anything else becomes high, reducing their likelihood to do so.

    Competition. So necessary and so unwanted.

    --
    Assorted stuff I do sometimes: Lemuria.org
    1. Re:competition by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      It's not only corporations that don't like competition. Consumers don't like it either.

      There are many reasons: Many prefer only one option because it's convenient. Others don't want competition because they can dictate what's allowed on the entrenched sites. Others again are so invested (emotionally and financially) into the big player that switching to someone else is too scary.

    2. Re:competition by AmiMoJo · · Score: 2

      It's actually relatively easy to switch your email away from Google. I did it when I was in China and Google services were blocked.

      It was a few clicks in Microsoft Live Mail to set up. I could have done it at the domain level but it was only temporary. For people who want to keep their gmail address it works great.

      You can also just download your entire mailbox in mbox format with Google Takeout. It's really only the @gmail.com address that is an issue, which is why I encourage people to simply buy themselves a personal domain.

      --
      const int one = 65536; (Silvermoon, Texture.cs)
      SJW, n: "Someone I don't like, and by the way I'm a fuckwit" - AC
    3. Re:competition by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      "It's actually relatively easy to switch your email away from Google"

      "It's really only the @gmail.com address that is an issue"

      So it's easy to switch your email away, the only difficult bit is the email address bit...

      Hmmmm

    4. Re:competition by ReneR · · Score: 1

      yep, me, too, Firefox on my #t2sde Linux https://t2sde.org/packages/fir... though all this Rust & cargo fluff required to build latest versions from source get a bit on my nerves: https://www.youtube.com/watch?...

    5. Re:competition by TuringTest · · Score: 3, Insightful

      It's actually relatively easy to switch your email away from Google
      It's really only the @gmail.com address that is an issue

      So, switching email providers if you ignore the single one thing that makes it difficult?

      --
      Singularity: a belief in the "God" idea with the "demiurge" relation inverted.
    6. Re: competition by Cmdln+Daco · · Score: 1

      So buy a fastmail account. It's only $30 per year, and they're really good.

    7. Re:competition by AmiMoJo · · Score: 1

      Well what is the better alternative? Setting up your own domain is beyond most people. Their ISP will delete their email account if they ever switch ISP. Every other free service will at most let you redirect.

      At least with Gmail they make redirecting to another service as easy as possible. There is a dedicated API that other services can integrate (like Microsoft did for Live Mail) or you can use IMAP/POP3.

      Google doesn't even delete old accounts so you can keep that @gmail.com address going without needing to periodically log in.

      What more can you reasonably ask for?

      --
      const int one = 65536; (Silvermoon, Texture.cs)
      SJW, n: "Someone I don't like, and by the way I'm a fuckwit" - AC
    8. Re:competition by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      There are things we could do to fight against monopolies through *decreasing* government intervention. For example, reduce the scope of copyright: say that software is only protected by copyright for five years, and even then only if the customer is provided with a copy of the source code.

      This would make copyright law more complex, which has its own set of problems - but it would cut back the government intervention in the market that copyright represents, and would also promote competition, prevent vendor lock-in, etc.

    9. Re:competition by gDLL · · Score: 1

      "customer monopolies are a real thing as well" -- sorry for interrupting your diatribe but the word you looking for is monopsony, and yes someone has discovered it's a "real thing" way before you.... Ever read an economics book ?

    10. Re:competition by DaveV1.0 · · Score: 1

      But, but, Google's motto is "Don' t be evil" unlike that evil, money-grubbing Microsoft! Obviously, Google will do only good with it's monopoly and give all it's profits to charity! Capitalism sucks. Give me everything for free!

      --
      There is no "-1 offended" or "-1 you don't agree with me" mod options for a reason.
    11. Re:competition by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Which is one reason why I stick to Firefox, until it becoms entirely unusable. We've had this problem before with IE and we didn't learn from it?

      I've had this argument again and again. QUIT USING CHROME, PEOPLE! Chrome is Google's weapon to control and steer the web. It's your privacy that's being driven over. Firefox is a very Google browser and the difference between them is not enough to justify handing the web back to a company.

      I hope Microsoft sues Google over this hidden element. That's an anti-competitive practice.

    12. Re:competition by quenda · · Score: 1

      It's really only the @gmail.com address that is an issue, which is why I encourage people to simply buy themselves a personal domain.

      Its just a shame that google no longer does free gmail hosting of your own domain (G Suite) for new customers.
      But you can get cheap hosting to forward your own domain email to a free gmail address and mailbox, and set outgoing mail as From: your own domain.

    13. Re:competition by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Why are you so angry? It's just pathetic.

    14. Re:competition by Actually,+I+do+RTFA · · Score: 1

      despite a monopoly is more damaging to a market than any government regulation short of a full planned economy could be.

      I'm not even sure if this statement is true. I mean, if the monopoly is on toasters or something, sure. If the monopoly is on the internet or social networking or energy?

      --
      Your ad here. Ask me how!
    15. Re:competition by tepples · · Score: 1

      If you buy the personal domain in the first place before or upon graduating from high school, "the single one thing that makes it difficult" will never occur.

    16. Re:competition by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      "Yet the same people who are so much for free markets are so much against regulation when it comes to curb monopolies, despite a monopoly is more damaging to a market than any government regulation short of a full planned economy could be."

      How do you define monopoly? Sole firm in one market; you have to define the market. Google is not a monopoly in practically any market. Having 70% is not a monopoly.

      Anti-monopoly laws were often used by less efficient firms to hurt the efficient competitor (I think DiLorenzo had something to write about that). That's not very efficient either. A lot of what anti-monopoly laws did harmed the markets and people. Was the result at least a net positive? That's very hard to say.

      Monopoly is not damaging to the market (see definitions of monopoly and market). A price-discriminating monopoly can also by quite efficient. Actually, the situations where the result would be really bad are not that many. And it's very improbable that the government can reasonably well detect them and use proper regulation.

    17. Re:competition by tepples · · Score: 1

      Setting up your own domain is beyond most people.
      [...]
      What more can you reasonably ask for?

      I could reasonably ask for making setting up your own domain easier.

      Sources: "personal-domain". "Why web sign-in#But everyone has an email address", and "Getting Started" on IndieWeb.org

    18. Re:competition by AmiMoJo · · Score: 1

      Okay, but are you saying that Google should help people set up their own domains? Surely it would need to be independent of Google if it was going to assist people with moving away from Google?

      I can't see what more Google could be expected to do here.

      --
      const int one = 65536; (Silvermoon, Texture.cs)
      SJW, n: "Someone I don't like, and by the way I'm a fuckwit" - AC
    19. Re:competition by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      I guess someone doesn't mind looking like an ass just so they can have a misguided feeling of superiority.

    20. Re: competition by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Itâ(TM)s a bit more than that if you donâ(TM)t want to be tied to a conpanyâ(TM)s domain

    21. Re:competition by hawk · · Score: 1

      >Google's motto is "Don' t be evil"

      That was some time ago.

      Now it's "Try not to be as evil as Microsoft--unless you need to" . . .

      hawk

    22. Re:competition by TuringTest · · Score: 1

      True, but that helps with how not to get into trouble, not how to get out of trouble - i.e. it doesn't help someone already with a gmail.com address.

      --
      Singularity: a belief in the "God" idea with the "demiurge" relation inverted.
    23. Re:competition by epine · · Score: 1

      Which is one reason why I stick to Firefox, until it becomes entirely unusable. We've had this problem before with IE and we didn't learn from it?

      Absolutely. So often, the masses jumping onto the latest and greatest often turns into a form of collective free riding—ultimately a very expensive form of collective free riding.

      Fortunately, there's still 9% of us who can read the Middle Earth chess board, see the monster pawn-break boding future ills, and are willing to batten the circular hatches by stubbornly sticking it out with second best (which wouldn't be second best, but for all the rest, easily duped into smacking over a chromium-tainted apple turnover).

      Maintaining diversity is often a big deal in machine learning. Your algorithm is less than entirely impressive if it stockpiles the seedcake pantry of the perfectly round hobhole door with a million shotgun-disrupted copies of GMO monoculture microdiversity.

      On the other side of this, I pretty much only use YouTube for video. It's the only service that reliably plays on my BSD desktop systems under Firefox (without my faffing around in tetchy AV plumbing I would prefer to never visit again).

      Now isn't that an irony worth smoking over on your happy hobbit hill?—where never the unadventuresome masses welcome Saruman's pastry wagon to Hobbiton with linked-arms to partake in his latest hasty scheme.

      "Hobbit sense," sighs Gandalf, we're the worse off without it.

    24. Re:competition by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Yet the same people who are so much for free markets are so much against regulation when it comes to curb monopolies, despite a monopoly is more damaging to a market than any government regulation short of a full planned economy could be.

      Do you have Amazon Prime? ...thought so.

    25. Re:competition by tepples · · Score: 1

      Okay, but are you saying that Google should help people set up their own domains?

      I'm asking for third parties to make it one-click easy for a credit card holder to register a domain, set up mail hosting, set up a website revision system that supports Webmention, and export an archive of all of the user's data. Google need not be involved, other than to index the whole lot, though it kinda-sorta already does this with G Suite, Google Domains, Google Sites, Blogger, and the like.

    26. Re:competition by Tom · · Score: 1

      No, I don't.

      Oh, you guessed wrong?

      --
      Assorted stuff I do sometimes: Lemuria.org
    27. Re:competition by ceoyoyo · · Score: 1

      Go ahead. Sounds like a great business idea. You'll be rich!

      Except it's not. The vast majority of people don't care, and the tiny fraction who do are capable of setting up their own domain, no problem.

    28. Re:competition by Tom · · Score: 1

      Sole firm in one market;

      That is not how you define monopoly. You can look up the definition in any economics textbook.

      Anti-monopoly laws were often used by less efficient firms to hurt the efficient competiton

      Laws can be abused. News at 11.

      The laws against murder are also sometimes abused. I don't see anyone asking for their removal on that grounds.

      Monopoly is not damaging to the market (see definitions of monopoly and market).

      I refer to the textbooks mentioned above. Yes, a monopoly is damaging to the market. There's even a specific term for the damage: Monopoly rents.

      There is a very small, very specific sector where natural monopolies are acceptable due to circumstances, typically when the market is simply not large enough to support multiple suppliers, and competition would end up with all of them disappearing, but the service is essential to society.

      Of course, you'd know all of that if you knew the first thing about macroeconomics.

      --
      Assorted stuff I do sometimes: Lemuria.org
    29. Re:competition by Tom · · Score: 1

      I'm not even sure if this statement is true.

      If your government controls your Internet, you have at least a theoretical way out - you can change your government. That might be just an election or it might be a revolution, but you can.

      If an international corporation sitting in another country controls your Internet, you will do what, exactly? (no, going somewhere else is not an option, that's what "monopoly" means)

      --
      Assorted stuff I do sometimes: Lemuria.org
    30. Re:competition by Tom · · Score: 1

      If I had written "monopsony", 2% of the readers would've had any idea what I'm talking about.

      And yes, I've read economics books. Quite a few. I don't know where you got the impression that I claimed to have discovered anything. I simply stated a fact.

      --
      Assorted stuff I do sometimes: Lemuria.org
    31. Re:competition by Tom · · Score: 1

      The funny thing is that copyright and patent laws are actually the little man/company's weapon against big corporations.

      Because what else are you going to do if you invent something and they simply take it?

      I'm all for reform, there's a lot that should be changed in those areas, but as an author of both software and articles/books, copyright is my friend.

      --
      Assorted stuff I do sometimes: Lemuria.org
    32. Re:competition by Actually,+I+do+RTFA · · Score: 1

      I think you misunderstood. I took objection to the "except a fully planned economy" part of your statement. I should have highlighted it.

      I mean, that exception is obviously true when it comes to toasters, or luxury items or even most normal items. But I was saying a for profit company with a monopoly on internet, energy or social media, that may actually be even worse than a fully planned economy. I'm really not sure which is worse.

      --
      Your ad here. Ask me how!
    33. Re:competition by CanadianMacFan · · Score: 1

      Zoho.com has email hosting, including a free account that includes up to five users and supports one domain. There are tools to move everything over from GSuite and Office 365 but they may cost extra. I've been using their service for years and it's good. I even have a domain attached to my account. I have my domain hosted at freedns.afraid.org.

      Zoho asks you to make an entry in your DNS record in order to prove that you actually own the domain name. Then it's just a matter of making the entries that Zoho provides into the domain record.

    34. Re:competition by Trogre · · Score: 1

      Well, then make it *not* beyond most people.

      --
      "Nine times out of ten, starting a fire is not the best way to solve the problem." - my wife
    35. Re:competition by Tom · · Score: 1

      I think we can agree that any kind of central control over these things is bad.

      That is why I am actually a supporter of government regulation - it's a compromise between the state actually running the damn thing (which nobody wants) and a commercial, unaccountable corporation owning the damn thing (which also nobody wants).

      I'd like anarcho-capitalism to work, but it doesn't.

      --
      Assorted stuff I do sometimes: Lemuria.org
    36. Re:competition by gDLL · · Score: 1

      Me? I wasn't angry. But if you mistake a bit of sarcasm with anger then you might wee your pants when you finally see anger manifested, just sayin.

    37. Re:competition by gDLL · · Score: 1

      I said so because you said "are a real thing..", as if trying to convince the public of an unknown/obscure phenomenon, but I understand what you meant. Btw I also try to stick to FF.

      "despite a monopoly is more damaging to a market than any government regulation short of a full planned economy could be." -- i firmly disagree, monopolies tend to go away after a few years whereas govt reg. just adds to the power trip.

      and btw i was born in a planned economy and i know a fing o two.

    38. Re:competition by gDLL · · Score: 1

      also :), "system needs competition, but the players within it desire to have as little competition as possible," -- the majority of players DO want competition, just not in their narrow field :), which is ofc understandable to anyone who gets human nature, luckaly the market doesn't care.

      Also while true that perhaps switching to a new product becomes too expensive, you must also consider that new clients don't have this problem, so if a better product comes along it might win the marked when enough old peoples die off.
      To be honest I would be more worried about oligopoly markets/cartels, and would ask the state to closely eyeball THAT and perhaps take some indirect action as to foster competition in those markets (which would be to me a valid use of state power).

    39. Re:competition by Tom · · Score: 1

      monopolies tend to go away after a few years

      Some, not all. The famous Standard Oil or AT&T were both split up by government intervention, not by market forces.

      Also while true that perhaps switching to a new product becomes too expensive, you must also consider that new clients don't have this problem, so if a better product comes along it might win the marked when enough old peoples die off.

      The cost of not being on Facebook, even for a new user, is much higher than zero.

      --
      Assorted stuff I do sometimes: Lemuria.org
  8. Skeptical by hcs_$reboot · · Score: 3, Insightful
    RTFS

    "For no obvious reason, Google changed YouTube to add a hidden, empty HTML element that overlaid each video..."

    That phrase is nowhere inside the page linked to it, and, further, the page is made from comments, like this very /.. Anyway, a hidden element might be truly existing, but a page made and modified by tons of web developers, adding layer to layers, has likely weirder elements. On top of that, if a "hidden element" breaks Edge, it's maybe because that browser code is not generic enough ; meaning they did some "optimization" to target a specifically coded page, and it breaks when that page code changes.

    --
    Slashdot, fix the reply notifications... You won't get away with it...
    1. Re:Skeptical by hcs_$reboot · · Score: 1

      (like IE6 in its glory days)

      --
      Slashdot, fix the reply notifications... You won't get away with it...
    2. Re:Skeptical by Joce640k · · Score: 1

      Microsoft could have quietly update Edge in a matter of hours and pushed out an update if this was really a problem for them.

      Instead they use it as an excuse to claim butthurt.

      --
      No sig today...
    3. Re:Skeptical by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0
      Look under the heading, "Bad actor", 3rd paragraph...

      A person claiming to be a former Edge developer has today described one such action. For no obvious reason, Google changed YouTube to add a hidden, empty HTML element that overlaid each video. This element disabled Edge's fastest, most efficient hardware accelerated video decoding. It hurt Edge's battery-life performance and took it below Chrome's. The change didn't improve Chrome's performance and didn't appear to serve any real purpose; it just hurt Edge, allowing Google to claim that Chrome's battery life was actually superior to Edge's. Microsoft asked Google if the company could remove the element, to no avail.

    4. Re:Skeptical by Ultra64 · · Score: 3, Informative

      So like what Microsoft did with DR DOS?

    5. Re:Skeptical by hcs_$reboot · · Score: 1

      Ok, that's not the link the paragraph in TFS was referring to. Anyway, a "hidden element" is, has been and will be part of the DOM for a long time. If Edge coughs because Google added a hidden element that doesn't match Edge too-specific code anymore, MS has a programming approach problem and they better use Chromium. And that's exactly what they plan on doing. MS blames whoever when Edge breaks, while the real reason is rather the difficulty to render a browser that copes with today's demands (mainly features and speed).

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      Slashdot, fix the reply notifications... You won't get away with it...
    6. Re:Skeptical by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 2, Insightful

      Transparent elements might seem trivial, but code-wise it is a fucking nightmare.
      It's one of the reasons rendering engines are so massively complicated now with this shitfest that is CSS these days.
      Half the fucking thing should have been deprecated for being worthless since they were replaced with CSS3 features vastly superior to them. (particularly things like flexbox, even if I do hate it overall)

      No chance of that happening now. Shitty rendering pipelines are here to stay.
      Web-browsers are honestly worse than most games when it comes to rendering complex nested geometry.
      It's not the worst, some of the techniques used are pretty neat and weren't even used in 2005, gotta give credit where credit is due, but STILL.
      But there are so many hacks all over the spec to get around actually making a decent renderer.
      Things like hints to tell the engine that elements are about to be repainted and other stuff.
      So much shit is not required. It only slows the browsers down by needing to check for useless instructions / attributes every single page cycle. (most capped at 60 Hertz, very rarely ever said value outside of video / canvas)
      CSS is the worst of the 3 major web specs.
      The only thing worse overall is a sub-spec - the DOM itself. Holy FUCK that needs to be scrapped already, it's a high-overhead nightmare. Ever use websites that are stupidly slow with fancy effects? Majority of the time it'll be the DOM being edited frequently, not so much the effects itself. It's the same reason any reasonably large, complicated online editors are slow like online word processors, spreadsheets, etc., or Facebook, large commenting systems with dynamic comment loading, any other site that uses any templating engines to build HTML, all the same source, the DOM being atrociously slow.
      Why we have stomached that piece of shit this long is beyond me. It could have been fixed with a JS header that says "this JS uses newDOM" (like JS harmony "1.6" changes break old browsers) or something along those lines, completely preventing the loading of any code relating to old DOM. While it would be a hit every cycle, it would still be less overhead than even a simple website.
      The only decent compromise, which most sites STILL DON'T DO, is building all the HTML in-variable, then writing the entire thing at once. This has minimal impact on the DOM and renderer.
      But it still won't fix a broken spec. The higher the webpage geometry, the slower the site will be. It takes time to parse that shitfest in order to render it when viewport changes.
      Useless nodes all over the place to deal with a shit spec.

    7. Re:Skeptical by beuges · · Score: 4, Insightful

      No, it rather means that the browser code is generic and correct. If an element is overlaid over a video, then that means that there could be content in it that would need to be overlaid on the video during rendering, meaning the video content now needs to be software rendered and can't make use of hardware acceleration, which is the issue at hand.

      The browser can't just pretend the div isn't there because it's empty, because in today's javascript-driven world, any element can be changed at any time, so you can't drop empty elements even if it looks like they're doing nothing.

      Given that thus far the div appears to be useless, and that YouTube refuses to remove it, it appears that it's been added purely to sabotage benchmarks for other browsers, since Google can optimize it away, knowing that it's useless. But no other browser can do that, because, given Google's behaviour of late, as soon as Edge starts dropping this useless element, Google will start inserting something into it, and then claim that Edge isn't rendering their site correctly.

    8. Re:Skeptical by hcs_$reboot · · Score: 1

      Maybe. But another (big) problem is (as was mentioned in another story) the piling of code layers. Dev A makes code A, dev B doesn't want to go into those lengthy lines of codes mixed in JS+HTML+CSS (for the client side only), and "patches" on top of that: B writes his/her own code run after code A. Good luck cleaning that mess after dev Z...

      --
      Slashdot, fix the reply notifications... You won't get away with it...
    9. Re:Skeptical by AmiMoJo · · Score: 1

      The hidden element is probably used for optional features like subtitles or the end of video screen. Or maybe to accept input for controlling 360 videos (you can pan the camera around manually).

      This is a fairly common technique. Use the hidden element in the HTML to position it in the DOM properly, because that's the easiest and most robust way to do it. Then when you want to activate it you can just inject content with Javascript.

      --
      const int one = 65536; (Silvermoon, Texture.cs)
      SJW, n: "Someone I don't like, and by the way I'm a fuckwit" - AC
    10. Re:Skeptical by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Or what they are doing today with IE11.
      I couldn't use this web page:
      https://www.w3schools.com/howto/howto_js_tabs.asp
      to get in-web-page tabs working on IE11 because it
      doesn't implement document.getElementsByClassName().
      I see complaints about this problem on IE7 as far back as
      2011. When I open Win7's event viewer, I see errors that
      no one on the web knows how to fix. Has everyone forgotten
      MS's forcing everyone off of a relatively private platform to
      the "we watch all your keystrokes" Windows 10?
      With all this seeming incompetence, Microsoft has been
      in the news lately as one of the 3 wealthiest companies
      along with Amazon and Apple. I'm not happy with Google's
      dirty tricks either, but Microsoft started it...

    11. Re:Skeptical by EMN13 · · Score: 2

      Dealing with rendering layers is a tricky optimization process. All browsers have had notable issues with it over the years, and almost certainly will for the foreseeable future, including most definitely chromium - as a job I maintained a chrome+website plugin for a few years and ironically chrome had the most issues of all browsers in this regard. If you've ever tried to optimize an HTML layout for animation, and low interactive jank, you may have run into issues with similar root causes.

      It's just not that trivial to figure out which few potential layers - amids the thousands (and sometimes more) in a typical web page - the browser should materialize as one of it's highly scarce usually on-GPU layers, and which it should flatten onto another one.

      So that hidden div can be nasty, because the browser can't predict if it will *stay* hidden. I'm going to go out on a limb here and guess that the div wasn't actually `display: none`, but instead used one of the many less complete forms of hiding, which is probably why whatever heuristics edge used went wrong. It may have been non-hidden in a previously rendered frame. Who knows?

      Seriously though - if a huge site like youtube can't be bothered to seriously test in edge, then something is wrong. The only reason to continue supporting edge for MS then would be strategic. And they apparently just decided: screw that.

    12. Re:Skeptical by AmiMoJo · · Score: 1

      To be fair the guy is only claiming that the hidden div messed up the Edge battery test benchmark, so they probably did test with Edge and see that layout and playback and functionality were all correct. Energy consumption is probably not something they regularly test the site for.

      --
      const int one = 65536; (Silvermoon, Texture.cs)
      SJW, n: "Someone I don't like, and by the way I'm a fuckwit" - AC
    13. Re:Skeptical by iampiti · · Score: 1

      Youtube not bothering to test on Edge? Rather they were doing the oppposite: Actively sabotaging it.
      If true that's a major dick move by Google.

    14. Re:Skeptical by mark-t · · Score: 1

      I will generally defend Edge as being a pretty damn decent web browser. The latest version of it is even slightly better than Firefox in terms of html standards compliance (in fact, it seems that for the past several iterations, the two browsers seem to be continually leapfrogging past eachother in that regard). Of the major browsers, only Chrome has any kind of significant lead in that area.

      That said, I agree 100% with the above post. An empty html element should be trivial to detect and ignore even before it gets to the actual rendering stage. If I were an Edge developer I would have wanted to push out a fix for this, not because I wanted to engage Google in any kinds of arms race, but simply because I want to make my product as good as I can, and if there is *ANY* known case that causes serious performance degradation which I know I can easily fix by adding maybe only a half dozen or so more lines of code, I'm going to want to put that fix in.

    15. Re:Skeptical by mark-t · · Score: 1

      You make a good point... handling this in a robust fashion would be non-trivial.

      But it's still possible to do such that it would not incur any additional runtime overhead on any already-playing video... although the only general mechanism I can think of for doing this without impacting video playback speed may introduce a small delay to how long it takes a video to begin to play in the first place (on the order of no more than perhaps a hundred ms or so).

    16. Re:Skeptical by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      From TFS:

      For no obvious reason, Google changed YouTube to add a hidden, empty HTML element that overlaid each video.

      Am I the only one who was struck by the critical modifier "obvous" in the above quote?

      Given that the same paragraph points out:

      Microsoft asked Google if the company could remove the element, to no avail.

      I, for one, did not immediately jump to the conclusion that, by including the empty <div> element, Google was purposefully attempting to hurt Edge's performance on YouTube. Instead, my thought was, "Well, Google very possibly refused to remove that element because it has plans to stick some code in there in the near future - and the Edge team's casual lack of concern for standards compliance really put the onus on them to fix their own broken-ass browser code."

      Of course, the fact that Edge currently has a paltry 4.2% share of the global web browser market (IE, by contrast, and from the same December 8, 2018 analysis, still has a 9.6% share, despite Edge doing all kinds of underhanded stuff to make itself the default browser for Windows 10 users) might also have entered into the big G's decision in regard to Microsoft's request. A lot of the browser share statistics reports out there (try entering "edge browser market share" in your favorite search engine and you'll see what I mean when I say "a lot") simply lump all versions of IE together with Edge, because Edge's chunk of the web browser user base worldwide is so pitifully tiny that even Opera kicks its ass.

      Edge is just a shitty browser, period. And I don't say that because its rendering engine is slow (it's not, empty <div> elements aside), or because it has a very limited selection of add-ons that people actually want (which it does), but because Microsoft made the Day 1 decision to make it as difficult as possible for ordinary, non-geek users to change Edge's default download directory to one of their own choosing. (And, yes, I'm aware that deliberately-user-hostile design decision was eventually revisited - but only after that practice, and others "of like kidney," apparently caused nearly everyone who got "upgraded" to Win 10 against their will to say, "Oh, HELL no!" - and actually use Edge only to download and switch their default browser to Chrome, or Firefox, or Opera, or anything other than the blecherous initial version of Edge.)

      Edge is now and has been since its earliest inception an example of classic Microsoft arrogance, just like the "upgrade" to Windows 10 it forced down the throats of Win 7 users. It deserves to die, just as Windows 10 deserves to die. (I'm convinced that Win 10 would dry up and blow entirely away, if ever the Linux community got its collective shit together and decided to make all the different distros completely interchangeable - so that end users don't have to take their machines down to bare metal to switch from one to the other - and, most importantly, to fix WINE, so that everything that runs on Windows also runs transparently on Linux, without requiring the end user to know or care how that works. And I mean everything, including MS Office, Adobe and other graphics and design software, DAWs, and every damned game ever written for the Windows platform.)

      Oh, and I think it's probably also worth noting that Google is notoriously unresponsive to requests to fix its code, regardless of who makes them. Just as an example, there've been a godzillion requests that they fix the desktop version of Calendar, so it offers the fine-grained scheduling that the Android edition offers. That hasn't happened, and, at this point, it probably never will - despite the fact that you can only add another user's calendar entries to your own by using the desktop version (something I needed to do so that my wife and I could mak

    17. Re:Skeptical by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Maybe the coming webrender in the Firefox could help here, if I'm understanding the issue correctly?

    18. Re:Skeptical by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Seems like the definition of monopolist behaviour and exactly the same sort of thing that Microsoft did with Internet Explorer back in the day. I wonder if there's enough integrity left in the US government for another lawsuit.

    19. Re:Skeptical by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      I can't say this from them would surprise me. Their original Youtube API used by early "smart" devices was discontinued for no good reason. Gee, I wonder how many affected people went out and bought a Chromecast.

    20. Re:Skeptical by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      > The browser can't just pretend the div isn't there because it's empty, because in today's javascript-driven world,
      > any element can be changed at any time, so you can't drop empty elements even if it looks like they're doing nothing.

      And this is why the internet has turned to complete shit. Fucking idiotic use of javascript. It's cancer of the web.

      Running arbitrary code downloaded from unknown third parties on your local computer is the single dumbest idea in computing history.

  9. As long as Chromium ... by Alain+Williams · · Score: 2

    does not, somehow, 'phone home to Google or otherwise enable tracking of what I am looking at then all that I am worried about is Google implementing its own web standards.

    Google is not entirely bad - but sufficiently so that I do not trust them.

    1. Re:As long as Chromium ... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Check out the "Brave" browser. It uses the fast Chromium rendering engine, but has a whole slew of ad blocking and tracking filtering features that might help you breathe easier.

    2. Re:As long as Chromium ... by Misagon · · Score: 1

      Sure, but Brave replaces ads with its own form of valuable tokens that you could distribute to web sites depending on how much you visit them. ... and those tokens are based on the Etherium blockchain.

      I don't want to support cryptocurrency, thank you very much.

      --
      "We mustn't be caught by surprise by our own advancing technology" -- Aldous Huxley
    3. Re:As long as Chromium ... by Actually,+I+do+RTFA · · Score: 1

      oes not, somehow, 'phone home to Google or otherwise enable tracking of what I am looking at then all that I am worried about is Google implementing its own web standards.

      Google implements its own web standards to enable Google tracking. They don't have to have the browser spy on you if every website, to render properly, includes Google supplied elements.

      --
      Your ad here. Ask me how!
    4. Re:As long as Chromium ... by CanadianMacFan · · Score: 3, Interesting

      From the Brave Browser website:
      "The Brave browser anonymously monitors user attention, then rewards publishers accordingly with BATs. (Basic Attention Tokens)"
      "Ads are then anonymously matched with customer interests using local machine learning algorithms. This means fewer irrelevant ads."

      They're blocking all of the ads so that they can monitor your activity and sell ads relevant to things you like to the sites you spend most of your time on. Yes, that's so much better! And that was being sarcastic for those that missed it.

      Whatever happened to the time when if I was on a site about (ice) hockey then I would get ads relevant to hockey? Why not analyze the page being served and create relevant ads for that. If I'm spending time on that page then I'm most likely going to be interested in that topic. No privacy worries because you aren't gathering information about the user. Probably too simplistic but it sure as hell beats having your every movement spied upon.

  10. Re:On the plus side, webstandards get adopted quic by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Oh, yes, we will have only one MOVING standard and have more free time to worry about...... OUR FUCKING PRIVACY INSTEAD.

    You sir, are a moron.

    Captcha: SADDER

  11. Better question: by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Who the fuck things we should be handing the internet over to a COMPANY? Hell, I don't trust the GOVERNMENTS to regulate it, so I sure don't trust a company to DICTATE IT.

    It is really time for us to collectively say 'We have had enough!' and take back, or create a new, internet for ourselves.

  12. Firefox dropped the ball by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1

    Firefox had a large share of web users, and then lost them by forgetting what made it popular in the first place, and doing their damn best to piss everyone off by trying to copy Chrome (did it ever occur to them that everyone using Firefox was doing so because they didn't want to use Chrome?)

    Seems like a ripe opportunity for a new web browser to pop up and give users a choice again.

  13. Don't say i didn't warn you... by The123king · · Score: 1
    --
    If you gave me a choice between a printer and a giraffe with explosive diarrhoea, i'll get my ladder and my raincoat
  14. Re:On the plus side, webstandards get adopted quic by BinoX · · Score: 2

    This means, that there will FINALLY be no more coding for (BROKEN FUCKING BROWSER X, Y or Z)

    Never had any problems supporting cross browsers, stick to the standard in the lowest common denominator you want to support and don't use proprietary extensions and you'll be fine. If you mean exclusively CSS layouts, then graceful fallback should always be an option. If you want to support the older browsers, you'll have to allow for people still using old versions of other browsers as well.

  15. We need more than Mozilla by xack · · Score: 1

    We need multiple independent open source browser engines with large market share to keep the web open. Imagine the web if Mozilla was never developed, and then imagine if Chromium got to be the single engine of the web like IE6 almost did. We can prevent a Chromopoly but onl if we act now.

    1. Re: We need more than Mozilla by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      You need to shut up and stop telling the rest of us what we need. We know what we need. Computers are not our life. Go sulk in the corner, geek.

    2. Re: We need more than Mozilla by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Ah. A lost soul.

      You're obviously in the wrong place. I can understand why you'd be confused.

    3. Re:We need more than Mozilla by CanadianMacFan · · Score: 1

      I've thought about creating a browser for the Mac (and maybe Linux) but the work involved in building the engine is quite large. It definitely needs a good sized team.

  16. And Mozilla helped with that. by Ecuador · · Score: 4, Interesting

    And Mozilla seems to be helping out Chrome as well. I mean, give us a reason to use FF. For me, even though it was slower and buggier, the many unique and really useful extensions were enough value for me to use Firefox as my main browser. They took them away and I was left with no reason to keep it.

    And it is sad that not even Microsoft can keep developing a separate technology, even though I've never used Edge personally. I know some people might say "a hidden div should not break your hardware acceleration", but it is another example making it obvious that Google is actively trying to screw other browsers. Even their more "benign" ways of telling you this and that feature on their sites only works with chrome is taking advantage of their dominant market share in ways I am not sure are legal. Well, we've known that for a while now and in general Google is at least as "evil" currently as Microsoft was at its peak and they are shaping the web the way they like (complete with their AMPs and all).

    --
    Violence is the last refuge of the incompetent. Polar Scope Align for iOS
    1. Re:And Mozilla helped with that. by Can'tNot · · Score: 2

      The quantum upgrade really provided a lot of advantages. Yes it broke some of the old plugins, but having a really nice buggy whip is not a good reason to shun automobiles. If there's some plugin which you absolutely can't do without, then use Waterfox.

    2. Re:And Mozilla helped with that. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      What kind of advantages did Quantum provide over Chrome? I've tried them both and Chrome still is faster it seems (using them on a Mac), and I can't see anything else Quantum might offer over it.

    3. Re:And Mozilla helped with that. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      And Mozilla seems to be helping out Chrome as well. I mean, give us a reason to use FF. For me, even though it was slower and buggier, the many unique and really useful extensions were enough value for me to use Firefox as my main browser. They took them away and I was left with no reason to keep it.

      It sounds like you were looking for an excuse to leave, as opposed to stay.

      The way you've described your previous situation was that you only stayed with Firefox because you had things only available on Firefox (platform lock-in), and desperately needed an excuse to leave (those lock-ins disappeared).

      Have I missed something?

    4. Re:And Mozilla helped with that. by sad_ · · Score: 2

      "I mean, give us a reason to use FF. For me, even though it was slower and buggier, the many unique and really useful extensions were enough value for me to use Firefox as my main browser."

      The reason why you should use firefox is in TFA.
      If there ever was a reason to use firefox (again), it is now! The earlier populairity of firefox was caused by the dominance of IE and the abuse it caused on the web. The same problem we are about to have now. So again it is important that firefox gets more usage, only because it is the one free (no hidden agenda) browser still available.

      --
      On a long enough timeline, the survival rate for everyone drops to zero.
    5. Re:And Mozilla helped with that. by CrimsonAvenger · · Score: 4, Interesting

      So again it is important that firefox gets more usage, only because it is the one free (no hidden agenda) browser still available.

      So, we should use Firefox because it's not Google? How about coming up with a positive reason for using it? Like, maybe, it's better? Assuming it is better, of course.

      Disclaimer: I use Firefox, and have used it pretty much since its inception....

      --

      "I do not agree with what you say, but I will defend to the death your right to say it"
    6. Re:And Mozilla helped with that. by jeti · · Score: 1

      There was no way to make the old extension system secure and it also blocked process separation between tabs. Removing it was necessary from a security standpoint.

    7. Re:And Mozilla helped with that. by bill_mcgonigle · · Score: 0

      Right. We naively trusted Mozilla Foundation to keep a free and open web, but, my God, they left bugs open for a dozen years like multi-threading, because it was 'too hard", while they raked in literally hundreds of millions of dollars every year. Now all they do is try to imitate Chrome, as if there is no vision left there at all - which may well be true; any visionaries likely left mofo out of frustration.

      We deserve a refund.

      --
      My God, it's Full of Source!
      OUTSIDE_IP=$(dig +short my.ip @outsideip.net)
    8. Re:And Mozilla helped with that. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      but it is another example making it obvious that Google is actively trying to screw other browsers

      Well, that's a claim, made by someone at Microsoft, but really ...

      For no obvious reason, Google changed YouTube to add a hidden, empty HTML element that overlaid each video. This element disabled Edge's fastest, most efficient hardware accelerated video decoding.

      is hardly proof of anything.

      A change in a web page broke the hardware acceleration in Edge. Now, if Edge is so fragile that a div tag does this, Edge is crap. If Edge's acceleration is assuming perfect HTML on the internet so their acceleration works, they're idiots. If it's tied to what they expected the YouTube pages to look like, it's a bullshit optimization.

      A browser has to handle all web pages, having any form of hardware acceleration that closely tied to the layout of YouTube sounds suspicious. Either their optimization was page specific so they could game benchmarks, or their optimization just sucked.

      Honestly, since when to browser makers get to ask web sites to change their HTML layout so that their performance benchmarks can be improved?

      Yes, Google is definitely exerting some influence on the web, and that is concerning.

      But I see no reason to lay the blame at the feet of Google because the optimization in Edge was so dependent on a specific layout in YouTube. I don't find that argument credible or convincing.

      To me it sounds like YouTube just demonstrated a flaw in Edge, and basically said "don't come whining to us if your browser's battery stats dropped".

      This sounds more like benchmark gaming or doing hardware optimization specific to YouTube. Neither of which is YouTube's problem.

    9. Re:And Mozilla helped with that. by AmiMoJo · · Score: 2

      They took them away and I was left with no reason to keep it.

      So did you switch to something else? Pale Moon or WaterFox maybe?

      Firefox is still massively more popular than either of those two, which suggests that Mozilla probably did the right thing by keeping Firefox competitive in terms of speed and security.

      --
      const int one = 65536; (Silvermoon, Texture.cs)
      SJW, n: "Someone I don't like, and by the way I'm a fuckwit" - AC
    10. Re:And Mozilla helped with that. by BlackOverflow · · Score: 1

      You can still use all the old extensions if you use Palemoon. I've been using since Oct, 2017, and it's been great.

    11. Re:And Mozilla helped with that. by drinkypoo · · Score: 2, Insightful

      Firefox doesn't need a hidden agenda to be crap. Their pocket-padding agenda is right out in the open for all to see. And speaking of Pocket, we don't want it integrated into Firefox, nor any other advertising against us as a captive audience. Firefox mobile has been changed, at least on Amazon fire TV, to always show Pocket links before viewing the URL it was called to display.

      The people on charge of Firefox no longer give one fuck about their existing user base. The only thing they care about is being chrome. Well, we already have chrome and chromium, and we don't need another one. What we need is a browser that actually fulfills the original promise of the brand: fast, light, good. Instead they are giving us a bloated sack of attack surface and then calling us the problem when we don't want it.

      All this has convinced me that once you get too many people profiting directly from a project, they will ruin it, unless there is a charismatic leader who isn't endlessly greedy. Webkit to chrome. Phoenix to Firefox...

      --
      "You're right," Fisheye says. "I should have set it on 'whip' or 'chop.'"
    12. Re:And Mozilla helped with that. by BlackOverflow · · Score: 1

      I would disagree about FF not having a hidden agenda. They used to be innovative and supported standards better than the other browsers, and had a ton of incredibly useful and unique addons. Over the years they have lost all these things and just follow whatever Chrome is doing now. You used to be able to fully customize the UI, but you can't even do that now. All the awesome addons broke with FF 57. They may not track you like google, but their agenda now is to copy chrome in every way possible.

    13. Re:And Mozilla helped with that. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      So nothing Firefox offers over the competition (including still having better addons) is worth it? Are we really that emotional that when we lose an addon or feature, the usefulness of the product becomes negligible? If more people participated in the process, we'd have more addons and Firefox would be further along in reimplementing features. But we choose to not bother, and switch to other browsers instead, only solidifying Google's strangehold over the web. Then we rationalize this and try to blame others for our choices? Go us?

    14. Re:And Mozilla helped with that. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      This is about the stupidest argument you could make. "Chrome is successful, people keep saying they would use Firefox if it only was as good as Chrome, so *don't* copy them, because you'll lose people who are leaving already because they're so loyal".

      I think people on sites are Slash are just so desperate for their incredibly niche features to be relevant enough to whine about losing, that they will throw the baby out with the bathwater while making conspiracy theories up to cover for their faulty logic.

      Any excuse to shift the blame, really. Hell, we'll even upsell forks that are utterly reliant on Firefox while saying Firefox should die. We've come to believe our own nonsense so much we've lost all sense of reality. But hey, we really don't care. Just let Google win. At least they're blatantly evil, so we don't have to come up with bullshit reasons to believe they are.

    15. Re:And Mozilla helped with that. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Quantum is a nice upgrade, faster, more stable, scalable and easy to use.
      There were too many obsolete addons for FF, and anyways, standard installs should be enough for most what one need or something is designed wrong.

    16. Re:And Mozilla helped with that. by Kielistic · · Score: 1

      For some of us that is a positive enough reason. At the end of the day I use very little of the "value adds" bolted on to modern browsers and all of them handle the basics pretty well. I use Firefox because of nostalgia and them not being Google or Microsoft but that doesn't make Firefox perfect.

    17. Re:And Mozilla helped with that. by Kielistic · · Score: 1

      If all of your users are complaining about bugs/speed etc and only 1% use a certain feature you may find that that feature isn't worth supporting in the long run. If they were the only browser that had that and their market share was shrinking then it clearly wasn't an important feature. Sorry, it's a reality of software development.

    18. Re:And Mozilla helped with that. by BlackOverflow · · Score: 1

      If you look at FF's market share, they have been on a consistent slide down ever since they dropped the old chrome/XUL addons. Their market share was holding steady at or above 6% before then, but they are now below 5% and have fallen more behind each month since they were dropped in Dec, 2017.

    19. Re:And Mozilla helped with that. by StuartHankins · · Score: 2

      Some of us who used addons that are no longer available (Scrapbook in my case; I have hundreds of pages saved) are now on the fence... I don't want to support Google by switching to Chrome, but in researching the issue with Scrapbook -- it appears that the interface is no longer exposed to accomplish this -- Mozilla and others backing Mozilla have basically said "we don't care". The variants which sprung up afterward don't perform the same task.

      All I wanted was a way to save a page's content into a searchable folder-based tree, and have the ability to delete ads and such that don't contribute to the actual content I want to save. Scrapbook was a really great quickie research / documentation tool.

    20. Re:And Mozilla helped with that. by Kielistic · · Score: 1

      I don't want to pretend that they didn't screw up. I just am unconvinced that dropping some of the features that I may have liked wasn't a good strategy in the long term. And I only say that as a software developer working on a product that has to support a tonne of features that aren't really worth the effort.

    21. Re:And Mozilla helped with that. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Kielistic opined:

      If all of your users are complaining about bugs/speed etc and only 1% use a certain feature you may find that that feature isn't worth supporting in the long run. If they were the only browser that had that and their market share was shrinking then it clearly wasn't an important feature. Sorry, it's a reality of software development.

      So Chrome's current dominance of the browser market isn't due to Google cutting deals with the likes of Adobe - and a host of other software vendors - to stick an "upgrade to Chrome and make it my default browser" checkbox in the corner of their EULA screen?

      I'm asking for a friend ...

      (Posting as AC only so as not to undo prior upmods in this thread.)

      --

      Check out my novel ...

    22. Re:And Mozilla helped with that. by Can'tNot · · Score: 1

      Quantum was an upgrade to Firefox, not Chrome. The parent was complaining that pre-Quantum Firefox had some things that he liked and were disabled with the upgrade. The point was that Quantum it provided advantages over pre-Quantum Firefox.

      If you want to compare Firefox and Chrome, that's a separate question but that's easy: Firefox doesn't spy on you, so Firefox wins. If you want to compare Firefox and Chromium that's harder... the two browsers are, unfortunately, pretty similar nowadays. This is why Firefox keeps getting guff from longtime users. Firefox adheres to standards better (this was the point of the article), and the Mozilla foundation is pretty much the most influential group advocating for open standards on the web. They were the holdouts against creating web standards for DRM, for example. So that's something.

      Mostly it just comes down to details though. The little things that you're accustomed to or that you like.

    23. Re:And Mozilla helped with that. by sad_ · · Score: 1

      then use palemoon, everybody keeps saying it's firefox but better/done right.

      --
      On a long enough timeline, the survival rate for everyone drops to zero.
    24. Re:And Mozilla helped with that. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      There's also Pale Moon and its many derivatives.

    25. Re:And Mozilla helped with that. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Firefox does not havce cookie prompting since version 44.0. That was enough of a feature to keep using older versions of Firefox, and then older derivatives of Pale Moon (that would still work on Windows XP).

  17. so what by renegade600 · · Score: 1

    microsoft done their own share of sabotage over the years. I still remember what they did to drdos and os/2 among others. I remember when microsoft released frontpage and what it did to websites and browsers. I remember...

    Over the years microsoft has been complaining about google thi and, google that. maybe google is part of the evil empire these days but microsoft has been a member of it for years, long before google was in existence.

    1. Re:so what by Actually,+I+do+RTFA · · Score: 1

      But Google's better at being an evil empire than MS ever was. And I mean that two ways: They're more evil, because they want all the data not just buckets of user's cash, and they've been more effective in maintaining and growing monopoly power throughout all the internet.

      --
      Your ad here. Ask me how!
  18. We didn't. by Qbertino · · Score: 3, Insightful

    They built a compelling service that people like to use.

    --
    We suffer more in our imagination than in reality. - Seneca
  19. It's not just Google vs Microsoft by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    People are cheering this trend because Google is "less evil" than Microsoft. Google is evil, they just have "Apple" style fanboys.

  20. What exactly is the bad actor thing they did? by TheSunborn · · Score: 3, Insightful

    What exactly is the bad actor thing they did? I did read the article but found nothing. Let's start with the stupid thing:

    1: "Adding an empty div element does not count as evil". And I don't understand why Microsoft would really write to Youtube, instead of just fixing their browser.

    2: SPDY or HTTP/2. Google made SPDY which was then used as a base for HTTP/2. What was so evil about that?. Both SPDY and even more HTTP/2 are open published standards* that anyone can implement. And Google newer requried any browsers to use either of these standards. They still support HTTP 1.1

    3: "HTML imports". Yes google use HTML imports which is a part of the html5 standard which is not that well supported by other browsers. So they implemented a fallback solution in Javascript so the site would still work in other browsers. again: I don't see the evil. What is the alternative? To use the fallback javascript on all browsers even if they support HTML imports??

    *that crap in IE6, which not even microsoft know exactly how worked.

    1. Re: What exactly is the bad actor thing they did? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      A while back I downloaded Firefox for Android. Was an okayish browser but it had one cool advantage - youtube would continue playing with the screen off. This was great for listening to music/podcasts without eating your battery.

      Then mysteriously around the time Youtube was launching its paid option (selling point:listen with the screen off), it stopped working. A fix is available that half works but Youtube is the only one of the big video sites that kills audio on FF when the screen blanks.

      That's an obvious example of Google nobbling competing technologies to gain market share.

    2. Re: What exactly is the bad actor thing they did? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1

      One question: Does Firefox continue consuming network bandwidth resources to download video data that won't even be seen with the screen turned off? Perhaps YouTube's paid option has the smarts to switch to an audio only data stream when the screen is turned off... YouTube has to return a profit somehow ya know. If FF is giving away one of YouTube's "for pay" services for free, it seems reasonable to me that YouTube would tweak their site to disable FF's theft of said service.

    3. Re:What exactly is the bad actor thing they did? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1

      1: Browsers can optimize video content that isn't covered up by other markup, as only Google knows if their div will remain empty for good. So only Chrome knows whether that div is safe to optimize away. And if other browsers optimize the same way, all Google has to do is change the div again. That leaves them in control over which browser behaves the best on YouTube. It wastes the other company's resources so they're perpetually having to play catch-up to Chrome, rather than making their browsers better in more fundamental ways.

      2: What's fair about Google having the world's most used browser and most used video site, and then enabling not-yet-agreed-upon new experimental features that give them an advantage only on the platforms they control? Just because something is "open" doesn't make it neutral. Google is essentially forcing their standards on people, whether they're ready for anyone except Google or not.

      3: The fallback is grossly inefficient by comparison, and there was no reason to use HTML imports in the first place except to push others to adopt them. YouTube was working just fine (some would say better) without the redesign. Also, browser vendors had already been working on an agreed-upon way to import HTML without HTML imports. So ultimately, Google just ended up pushing their experimental tech out just to gain a competitive advantage, not to better web standards or improve user experience.

    4. Re: What exactly is the bad actor thing they did? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Chrome doesn't even have these smarts. I just tried it myself; started playing a YT video, turned off my monitors, turned them back on a minute later, and saw a bunch of video had been downloaded regardless of my monitors being on.

    5. Re:What exactly is the bad actor thing they did? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      How do you know the empty div serves no purpose? Youtube has traditionally been very siloed from the rest of Google, seems unlikely that they would be forced to modify their site to favour Chrome.

    6. Re: What exactly is the bad actor thing they did? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      That's disappointing, but not terribly unexpected. It is a pretty specific use case to put into a general purpose web browser, especially if the underlying OS doesn't provide a means of notifying the application that a monitor has been turned off. How about that YouTube app on Android though? Maybe it's gots the smarts?

  21. Let's hope VR saves us by TuringTest · · Score: 1

    There will be a need to deliver generic 3D content through the web in VR, and fortunately, nowadays Chrome only works in Google's Daydream platform, while other developers are building their own alternative browser engines (with Firefox the only one aiming for multi-platform).

    There's still hope that those competitors will maintain a viable browser in that environment, starting a new browser battle with some chance of fighting back and keeping web compatibility alive.

    --
    Singularity: a belief in the "God" idea with the "demiurge" relation inverted.
  22. Simple by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Well, we have done this previously... It really is not all that hard.

    1. Do not use Chrome or any other Chrome derivative; currently this means Firefox. There is a lot of complaining on FF, it really is neither better nor worse than Chrome.

    2. Google will be forced to provide competition as was MS. Probably in Europe. Easiest would be to force them to make Chrome it's own company without Alphabet.

    3. If or when Google uses their monopoly to hurt Facebook, e.g. by limiting ads or user tracking, there will be a Facebook-specific browser.

  23. No need to wait, use a fork now by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    from most similar to least similar to current FF:
    Tor Browser
    Waterfox
    Pale Moon
    Seamonkey

  24. Peter Bright, consistent MS fanboy/apologist by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Would he be writing the same editorial if the shoe was on the other foot?

  25. Re: net neutrality by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Wow, imagine being this delusional

  26. DOS ain't done till Lotus won't run by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    I guess Google learnt from the masters.

  27. Re: On the plus side, webstandards get adopted qui by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    This is just a rehash of what happened 10-20 years ago. Where do you think things like AJAX came from?

  28. Re:net neutrality by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    No, actually, we are not OK with the six criminal gangs you name. We are also not OK with having government by the idiots, for the idiots.

    ...

    Then quit voting for Democrats.

    For example:

    California: Ruled by Democrats, highest poverty rate in the US. (And you know that had to HURT Politifact to admit a "progressive" failure...)
    Chicago: Ruled by Democrats, violent and going broke
    Baltimore: Ruled by Democrats, violent and going broke

  29. On the plus side by easyTree · · Score: 1

    No more IE6! Woohoo!

  30. Re:Mozilla has a huge albatross around its neck by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Brandon Eich's firing.

    He wasn't fired. He resigned.

    It doesn't matter what you think about gay rights.

    Really? So, you would be against firing people over their beliefs?

    by firing anyone left over responsible for that decision,

    Ah, nope. You're just full of shit and want your status quo centrism to be foisted on all to protect your fragile ego. Grow up you snowflake.

  31. Hypocritical Peter Bright by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    When I realized who was the author of the original Article. I laughed sarcastically. Umm mmmh Peter Bright :) haha. A good dear M$ fan boy from the old glory days of Microsoft's monoculture. I'm not saying he's not right in some things. But he has never applied the same criteria for his favorite company. A little hypocritical it seems to me.

  32. Google will liberate you by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    So... the biggest search engine from the 90s turned evil after all.

  33. real market share by BlackOverflow · · Score: 2
    The real market share numbers from statcounter.com as of Nov 2018:
    • Chrome: 61.77
    • Safari: 15.09
    • Firefox: 4.92
    • UC Browser: 4.22
    • Opera: 3.15
    • ie 2.81
  34. Microsoft either for that matter by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Considering now the two biggest developers of Chromium will be Google and Microsoft. This is not a good combination for a open web browser. In the end not a lot is open about Google Chrome or Microsoft Edge. Their both going to take the good bits from Chromium and make it a platform that benefits these two big tech giants. I don't see this as a positive for a open web. Its going to stifle any other project like Firefox or other browsers who don't use Chromium. Peter Bright is spot on in this being bad for the web.

  35. I for one welcome our new Google overlords by sinij · · Score: 0

    I, for one, welcome our new Google overlords, replacing Microsoft overlords.

  36. Re:Mozilla has a huge albatross around its neck by pezezin · · Score: 4, Interesting

    Dude, I don't know what world you live in, but most people out there neither know nor care who Brandon Eich is or what he did, or if he was fired from somewhere.

    Anyway, I will forever hate him for creating the monstruosity that is JavaScript.

  37. Finally people are waking up by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    What the world really needs are benevolent politicians with an in depth understanding of contemporary technology and good idea of where things are headed.

  38. Don't be evil by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    has become, "more evil than the Government", more evil than Trump.

  39. What?? by Kludge · · Score: 2

    People keep bashing Mozilla and Firefox and I do not know why.

    even though it was slower and buggier

    On my computer Firefox starts faster than Chromium. I have also found more web sites on which Chromium will crater than Firefox.

    The reality is folks, that Mozilla and Firefox are free and awesome.

  40. Competitve but with a conscience by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Every for-profit company may do something to give itself a leg up at the expense of its competitors. Google is no different, nor would I expect them to be. Sure we all wish big companies were peaceful with their competitors and didn't strive to improve their own profit. But what this article misses out is the power of the employees at Google. Google was set to make a lot of money in China, but the employees voiced their concerned and eventually led to the company dropping this very profitable venture into China. (didn't the employees also cause Google to stop work on a pentagon contract?)

    So, yes, whine about some stuff you don't like about Google because you want other companies to be competitive. But don't forget about good things as well.

  41. Google was a good student... by QuietLagoon · · Score: 1

    ... of Microsoft's tactics back in the 1980's and 1990's. While some may have solace in seeing Microsoft hoisted by its own petard, the real losers here are the consumers.

  42. Re: net neutrality by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Yeah! Bâ(TM)more represent!

  43. Do I have this right... by msauve · · Score: 2

    Microsoft is complaining that Google is using a embrace, extend, and extinguish strategy. I wonder where they learned that from.

    --
    "National Security is the chief cause of national insecurity." - Celine's First Law
  44. Google isn't the company... by mschaffer · · Score: 1

    "Google Isn't the Company That We Should Have Handed the Web Over To"
    Well, thank you, Captain Obvious. We shouldn't hand the internet over to any company.

    1. Re:Google isn't the company... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      But it isn't just impacting MS...it is impacting anyone who isn't on board with Google's ways.

  45. Fragmentation is the problem by Deathlizard · · Score: 3, Insightful

    Microsoft had a popular browser. The problem was they pissed it away by doing nothing with it.

    I don't know if it was caused by the antitrust ruling in the hope that a competitor would show up for IE, or by sheer incompetence, but Letting IE6 wither while Vista was being developed was one of the absolute dumbest moves Microsoft ever did. The only reason IE7 and IE8 happened was Firefox was creeping on their share and by the time they got IE's IU together Chrome passed them both. Then they fragmented the browser between OS'es which did more damage, then instead of fixing IE's speed issues, they developed Edge, further fragmenting their base. At one point, there was Three IE's (counting XP) and Edge vs One chrome and one Firefox.

    This isn't the only thing Microsoft has done this too either. Windows Mobile, DirectX, Hell Even the Microsoft Store between 8, 8.1 and 10 with DirectX probably being the best example. If they supported previous OS'es the game industry would be all in for DirectX, Instead they tied it to OS revisions and it's got so bad now there's version fragmentation between Windows 10 releases. They fragmented all of their tech to the point that no one moves forward and everyone has to support the lowest common denominator. Meanwhile their competitors move forward with their one unified supported version.

    Fragmentation is whats killing Microsoft. They need to do whatever it takes to kill it be it free OS upgrades for all previous versions or supporting the latest software and API's on all supported operating systems.

    1. Re:Fragmentation is the problem by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      don't know if it was caused by the antitrust ruling in the hope that a competitor would show up for IE, or by sheer incompetence, but Letting IE6 wither while Vista was being developed was one of the absolute dumbest moves Microsoft ever did. The only reason IE7 and IE8 happened was Firefox was creeping on their share and by the time they got IE's IU together Chrome passed them both. Then they fragmented the browser between OS'es which did more damage, then instead of fixing IE's speed issues, they developed Edge, further fragmenting their base. At one point, there was Three IE's (counting XP) and Edge vs One chrome and one Firefox.

      I suspect that a large part of the problem was that they had tied the Browser so intimately to parts of the OS.

      That meant they couldn't just "ship a new browser" they had to figure out and make sure that it would keep working with the OS. Inevitably leading to multiple versions of IE each tied to different OS versions.

      By the time they realized they needed to break the browser apart, and update it from scratch (Edge), they were already playing catch up to Chrome and everyone else.

    2. Re:Fragmentation is the problem by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      i think this is valid. fragmentation has an exponentially increasing cost. 'our new thing is better!' always has a cost. change is a cost.

  46. Doh by buddyglass · · Score: 1

    Mozilla is sad that Firefox was completely left out of this analysis. 12% ain't much, but it's roughly AMD's share of the desktop CPU market.

  47. Re:Mozilla has a huge albatross around its neck by drinkypoo · · Score: 2

    Nobody in OSS cares whether some right-wingers stopped using Firefox. Conservatives are well-known for not doing research, the 1% aside, and for cutting off their face to spite their face, the 1% included. The numbers of them who were already using Firefox instead of whatever came with their system and not using chrome will have amounted to a rounding error.

    Eich could have said "that was then, this is now, my views have changed and here is a donation to prove it" or he could resign, and I'm glad he made the choice he did since clearly his views have not changed. Firefox is about openness and interoperability, and prop 8 was about fear and prejudice. Whether he left or was pushed, it was correct.

    --
    "You're right," Fisheye says. "I should have set it on 'whip' or 'chop.'"
  48. Stupid headline - there is no such company by drinkypoo · · Score: 1

    You don't hand things you care about over to another party. You have to keep a hand in. We are going to need a non-profit browser, which is to say, managed by a non-profit. Mozilla has long since lost its way and is now chasing dollars. I feel sorry for people who actually gave them money, your donations were spent integrating Pocket instead of building a better browser.

    --
    "You're right," Fisheye says. "I should have set it on 'whip' or 'chop.'"
  49. Far worse by Actually,+I+do+RTFA · · Score: 1

    It's not that "you cannot use Google search well" if you don't use Chrome. That would be not nearly as bad. Now, it's "optimize your website for Chrome, or get downgraded in Google's search". Therefore, they've forced all the popular sites into helping them. Which is not as powerful as Microsoft's IE6. That was "you'll render wrong if you don't adhere to our non-standards". This is "you don't exist if you don't adhere to our non-standards"

    --
    Your ad here. Ask me how!
  50. Re:net neutrality by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    I think the pattern here is being ruled by [insert tribalism name here]
    Non aggression principal. Voluntarism.

    It is foolish and delusional to believe those at the top are their to server those at the bottom. There is no need to rule in order to serve. The need to rule is the need to control others, to have them do as you wish, as subjects/rustics/peasants/slavs are meant to behave.

  51. Ironically, because standards by Actually,+I+do+RTFA · · Score: 1

    Technically, the Edge team was adhering to layering standards. And they fixed this issue in the next update. But it's not hard to imagine a strange edge case in any browser that can be exploited to run slower.

    Well, Google is cementing it's ownership of the internet.

    --
    Your ad here. Ask me how!
    1. Re:Ironically, because standards by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      This feels like reporting done to back up an assertion. The slant was decided before the reporting started.

      Per the html imports, the framework they used made html imports a first class citizen. It has been removed from the frameworks latest iteration. It was a spec that never took off. Firefox elected to not implement it. Newer versions of Chrome no longer support it.

      http://w3c.github.io/webcomponents/spec/imports/
      https://caniuse.com/#feat=imports

      Per the div, have a link for that? The first place I read this about got their input from an Edge intern. Have a link where they call the Chrome team out for not adhering to the standard?

      They don't attempt to discern why that transparent div might have been there. It's easy to say they are doing it to thwart MS, but I doubt Google felt inclined to divulge why it was there.

  52. Markets happen, get used to it by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    I love it when people complain about the market choices of consumers, shows how big their ego is, to think they know better than everyone else what choices any one person should make.

    Chrome does not come by default on any Windows or Mac system and Chromebooks simply aren't that popular. That means that virtually all of that 76% market share is because the user went out and CHOSE to download and install Chrome.

    Where's the problem here? It means that both Microsoft and Apple can't bundle in their own systems a browser that's preferable, BY THE USER.

    To top it off, after bitching about the market share of Chrome and how "dangerous" it is, they go on to cite how Internet Explorer at one time actually had MORE market share. Well it's down to 5% now...so what happened? Markets happened, that's what. So what's there to worry about?

  53. Don't blame Google. It is us. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Edge is a good browser. Fast. It looks even faster than Chrome. But public ignored it. Firefox engaged in political correctness and liberal agenda instead of trying to make product better than Chrome so it lost. So we can only blame ourselves that we have chosen not to use Edge.

    1. Re:Don't blame Google. It is us. by supremebob · · Score: 1

      The funny thing is that Microsoft tried cramming Edge down the throats of Windows 10 users with various pop-ups telling us how much greater it was than Chrome, which basically had the opposite effect of what was intended.

      Instead of promoting Edge from that "other browser pre-installed on my computer that I used to download Chrome" to the browser that I actually used, it Demoted it to "that piece of shit software that I have to disable notifications for".

      We (the IT community) really should be promoting Firefox usage instead. Sure, their development team is kinda weird, but at least they are promoting open web standards. It sure beats trying to force your users into to using company specific web services to get the most out of your browser.

  54. Re:On the plus side, webstandards get adopted quic by tepples · · Score: 1

    Never had any problems supporting cross browsers, stick to the standard in the lowest common denominator you want to support

    Unless "the lowest common denominator you want to support" lacks a particular feature that is essential to your site. For example, before iOS 6, Apple WebKit for iOS lacked <input type="file">. This meant photo sharing websites could not accept uploads from users through Safari or any other web browser on iOS. Even nowadays, many web browsers implement only a subset of WebRTC: some lack H.264 because of the patent royalty, and some lack VP8 because of what appears to be a business decision to support only codecs standardized by ISO.

  55. It shouldn't have been ICANN either. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    But, no, if the USA can't own it, it can't be set to be owned by other countries in partnership.

    Google was a US company, so the USA thought it was good that a US company "owned the web". Until it stopped being nice to republicans because, unfortunately reality has an anti-scumbag bias and republicans don't WANT to see they are scumbags. And hiding that self delusion is hard when you can't get positive reinforcement about how great you are, like you can with a controlled mainstream media.

  56. Aww, poor baby by drinkypoo · · Score: 2

    I see they're still giving Mozilla foundation employees mod points. Truth hurts, eh?

    --
    "You're right," Fisheye says. "I should have set it on 'whip' or 'chop.'"
  57. Worse than that by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    If it breaks on Edge, it is the web page at fault. If it breaks on some other browser,the browser is at fault.

    Just like apps crashing windows are the fault of the apps, but if Linux crashes, it's a piece of crap. Or if it works on Windows, then not working elsewhere is the fault elsewhere (even earlier versions of windows "upgrade, chump!"), it it doesn't work on Windows (even if it works fine elsewhere, see GIMP MDI), then the app is at fault.

  58. So, if not Google, then who? by X!0mbarg · · Score: 1

    All things considered, who else should we have handed over the gateway to the internet to?
    Were there any real choices?
    Microsoft? I think not.
    Apple? Ditto.
    Seriously, though. Who would be the better option?

    1. Re:So, if not Google, then who? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      All things considered, who else should we have handed over the gateway to the internet to?

      Facebook.

    2. Re:So, if not Google, then who? by ceoyoyo · · Score: 2

      Nobody? That's kind of the idea behind the whole "Internet" thing.

    3. Re:So, if not Google, then who? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Not practical. How do you find anything on the internet without a search engine?

      Before SEs, we had portals, catalogues of companies, services and links to them. Totally subjective. Pay up or you're not listed.

      Before that... rule of thumb: [company name].com and [university].edu.

      Before that... domain names in the media and on USENET. And archie. Which was in the hands of a single company, too.

      The only alternative I can think of is a decentralized catalogue and search engine. Which might even be censorship-resistant.

  59. Webkit doesn't belong to Google by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Webkit originally comes from Trolltech and Nokia and is Free. It doesn't belong to Google.

  60. Why Joe Public doesn't recognize monopsony by tepples · · Score: 1

    I imagine that people tend to forget monopsonies exist because they are most familiar with consumer product scenarios, in which the seller has far more power than the buyer. Someone who doesn't regularly sell things might not have heard of the situation in, say, toy or comic book distribution where a large number of manufacturers sell to a handful of distributors. The only selling that a lot of people do is in the wage labor market, which people tend to see as somehow fundamentally separate from the market for other goods or services.

  61. Re:Mozilla has a huge albatross around its neck by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    You convinced me to give firefox a try
    Looks Good!
    Thanks

  62. Sucks, don't it? by ilsaloving · · Score: 1

    I'm of mixed feelings about this. On the one hand, they're right. Google should *not* have the control of the web that it does. We've seen it before with Microsoft and there's no way it will end well.

    On the other hand, I pointed my Schadenfreude meter at Microsoft and it exploded.

  63. As more silos tighten their content policies by tepples · · Score: 1

    As silos continue to tighten their content policies, as Tumblr did over the past few weeks, more people will have to start caring about owning their URL space in order to continue to offer their works to the public.

    1. Re:As more silos tighten their content policies by ceoyoyo · · Score: 1

      Maybe. But now you're not talking about setting up an e-mail address. Setting up your own YouTube competitor is slightly more difficult. Maybe Wordpress will make a plugin.

    2. Re:As more silos tighten their content policies by AmiMoJo · · Score: 1

      Won't really help though, because Tumblr and the like are social media. Your own site isn't networked the same way, so it won't get the traffic or be discoverable. You will be screaming hashtags into the void.

      --
      const int one = 65536; (Silvermoon, Texture.cs)
      SJW, n: "Someone I don't like, and by the way I'm a fuckwit" - AC
  64. empty div ... hardly evil by paulpach · · Score: 2

    Call me crazy, but if your browser cannot handle an empty div properly, then perhaps you should just fix your browser?

    The whole drama is coming from a former Microsoft intern that worked on EdgeHTML. Read between the lines: the guy is bitter he lost his job to chromium, and wanted to vent in Hacker News. The press saw gold, and created news out of this for clicks sake.

  65. "proprietary" by reanjr · · Score: 1

    You keep using the word "proprietary". I do not think you know what that word means.

  66. Do No Evil? by humankind · · Score: 1

    I think a dead giveaway to that was their motto: Do No Evil.

    Kind of like Fox News's "Fair And Balanced."

  67. Why did we turn the Internet over to any company by rsilvergun · · Score: 1

    in the first place? The headline assumes that part was inevitable.

    --
    Hi! I make Firefox Plug-ins. Check 'em out @ https://addons.mozilla.org/en-US/firefox/addon/youtube-mp3-podcaster/
  68. If I were a Product Manager at Microsoft by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    I'd release an community maintained Ad-Block plugin and make it a featured one - so that it basically can get bundled with the browser for improving performance.

    That plugin would take care of removing these Googley hacks - or setting a user-agent per page.

  69. Fuck Microsoft by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    For all the bitching we can remember when microsoft owned the web and pages where IE centered.

    ActiveX, and then later windows only flash. It ran like absolute crap, avoided W3C standards like the plauge and was %100 proprietary.

    Chromium is Free software. Google is not great, and ideally companies should avoid proprietary extensions to an open protocol, but its still much much much better than it has been.

    In any case, the end of yet another proprietary Microshaft tool is a reason to celebrate.

  70. We should have seen this coming, and did by Etcetera · · Score: 1

    Google famously said it wanted to index "all the world's information", but we all know that information is power... That's all the world's power, and absolute power corrupts absolutely.

    This wasn't new, but the warnings about it in the mid-2000's were out-shined by the distractions of the new technical advances Google was bringing (AJAX, Web 2.0, etc...), followed by the "data fetishists" that came into cultural and philosophical power around the time of the Obama Administration.

    Perhaps if we'd taken better heed of the warnings signs, we'd be in a different place now. Here's ZDnet back in the day: https://www.zdnet.com/article/google-targeting-all-the-worlds-content-and-all-your-information/

    Google has been rightly called to task for its disingenuous “do no evil” formula. As we embark on this changing of the seasons perhaps it is also time to change our tune on Google’s celebrated mission to make “universally accessible and useful" the world’s information they have “organized.”

    As I put forth in “Google to Microsoft: Wolf in sheep’s clothing,” Google has an uncanny ability to make even its most calculated of competitive moves appear to be generous, friendly endeavors:

    Google has a knack for launching (hoped for) category killer applications directly aimed at usurping existing market leaders’ positions with its reassuring “we’re not a competitive threat, we complement each other” mantra.

    Google downplays its blatant incursions into competitors’ territories, while promoting its encroachment on the information and content of others.

    Google CEO Eric Schmidt was beaming at the company’s Q2 2006 earnings conference call in July; his unbridled confidence in the power of Google to virtually master the world was palpable over the Internet. Schmidt started the conference call by extolling:

    not just from an information perspective, but also from a monetization perspective We don't see any signs of approaching any limits to this vision. The opportunities before us really are unlimited at this point.

    What is the unlimited opportunity Schmidt is targeting? Google believes it is in its power and in its right to be master of the world’s content and ruler of the world’s advertising. According to Schmidt:

    we said we are in the search business, so we need all of the information. We want to partner with people to get information so our search end users can see it. We're also in the advertising business, and we'd like to provide advertising services to people who have their own proprietary content. So depending on where we are in that spectrum, we either do an advertising deal or a content deal or a hybrid deal. But ultimately our goal at Google is to have the strongest advertising network and all the world's information, that's part of our mission.

    Google is not simply posturing, it is all too serious.

  71. Your summary kind of sucks by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    "a hidden, empty HTML element that was added to"

    You're attributing malice without, you know, proof of it?

  72. Webmention by tepples · · Score: 1

    I acknowledge that a recommendation engine is the biggest missing piece of the IndieWeb paradigm. But in theory, an IndieWeb site would submit new pages to some aggregator service in Webmention format. This splits the roles of hosting and aggregation.

  73. "The kettle is black!" by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Google is horrible.

    Remember when "Google" used its licensing agreements to force OEMs to keep all other operating systems (like Linux, OS/2, BeOS, BSD, etc.) off the PCs they sold to users? Remember when "Google" used its own internal operating system APIs to give its Office products a head start on its new cutting edge OS in 1995, thereby forcing competitors like WordStar, WordPerfect, and Lotus 1-2-3 out of the market? Remember also when "Google" kept its Office file formats proprietary and then kept changing them when alternatives like StarOffice, OpenOffice, and LibreOffice were able to reverse-engineer them in order for "Google" to force customers into using only its expensive Office suite? How about when "Google" tied its own web browser into its monopolistic operating system (I mean the one back in the 1990s) thereby shutting the competition of Netscape out of the market, earning "Google" severe penalties from the European Union? How about when "Google" kept spreading Fear, Uncertainty, and Doubt about Linux by lying claiming that free Linux had a higher Total Cost of Ownership than "Google's" dominant and expensive operating system?

    Yeah, me neither.

    All of that sh*t was done by Microsoft. (With the exception that Google's current operating system Chrome OS does seem to only allow Google's Chrome web browser.)

    I'm not saying that the message Microsoft is sending is incorrect. But what I am saying is that Microsoft and its Windows biased propagandist Peter Bright are not the ones to talk about monopolies. Besides, the same Peter Bright not too long ago praised Microsoft for leaving most of the testing of its Windows updates to end users. How well did that turn out?

  74. idiocy by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Who wrote this trash?

    Safari has been on Windows for at least 10 years. And they omitted Firefox entirely.

    Not to mention, what browser a user uses has literally nothing to do with "control of the web."

    Control of the web is in the same hands it has always been in - ISPs, ICANN, and the government backbones it relies on.

  75. Edge was junk! by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    I really struggled to make the simplest config changes with Edge because they decided to either hide or change the way the settings were modified.

    This made stupid things like home page hijack "attacks" on my father-in-law's PC a real pain. Good riddance to Edge!

  76. No, it never is. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Because firstly reality proves your claim wrong: the little guy goes bankrupt and has to sell their IP to stay off the street. Secondly, big companies pay politicans more than little companies so they get the laws the way they want them. Third, being civil you will have to pay all your own defence against a corporation that has more money than you and therefore "better lawyers" to argue points of law so that you cannot prove your case. See SCO and McBride.

    1. Re:No, it never is. by Tom · · Score: 1

      I'm not saying the system is flawless. I said it is ironical. Yes, the system is being abused and massively. But in addition to large corporations, there are quite a few IPs which are still in the hands of their authors or their heirs. Tolkien, Heinlein, etc.

      We need to fix the system. But not abandon it.

      --
      Assorted stuff I do sometimes: Lemuria.org
  77. Re:On the plus side, webstandards get adopted quic by BinoX · · Score: 1

    The point I was trying to make, is that standards should be followed on both sides, both the browser and client side scripting. Then these issues wouldn't occur. Custom javascript extensions and CSS just muddy the water. Most of the problems I see with modern web development stem from people just developing for their preferred browser of choice, using whatever weird formatting tricks they need for that browser and then call it "done". When professional companies release webapps and say thing like "This only works on Chrome" strikes me as incredibly lazy. When I write sites/webapps for clients these days, I tend to target IE11, as some of their machines are still on Windows 7, and it's what they use. Using nothing more than the standards, with no unnecessary frameworks bolted on (I'm looking at you jQuery) I can deliver responsive sites that work across all the browsers without tweaking anything. I did write something for a school not too long ago that had to support IE9. But, using that as my base for development - rather than trying to do it in chrome or firefox, it "magically" worked for newer version and other browsers. Perhaps if they made it so that developers could specify the max scripting language version to run, at least for debugging, it would make things easier. Maybe make it so that non-standard extensions had to be enabled with some scripting or metatag first.

  78. Re:Mozilla has a huge albatross around its neck by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Pure JavaScript will one day be looked at like Latin, so, that a framework of the day will be something like Doctor's Latin, or will have morphed into something equivalent of Romance languages (French, Spanish, Italian, and Portuguese).. With tidbits also used in English.