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Did Apple Retail Prices Get Too High in 2018? Consumers Say Yes. (usatoday.com)

Apple has for years been a premium brand that rarely, if ever discounted products. Every year, the company could raise prices on products, and consumers would not only happily pay, but stand in long lines for the privilege of doing so. From a report: So when Apple started putting misleading, but seemingly consumer-friendly posters in front of Apple Stores at the end of 2018 offering a new iPhone model for $300 off (with trade-in of your current phone), you know something different happened for the company this year. Consumers fought back. Many analysts have reported that in the wake of poorer-than-expected sales for this year's crop of iPhones, Apple cut back on production, including on the $1,100 iPhone XS Max, the $999 iPhone XS and the XR, the "budget" model that replaced the previous entry-level new phone, the $349 SE. The price for the XR (the one Apple is hawking discounts for): $749.

"This should be a wakeup call for Apple," says Daniel Ives, an analyst with Wedbush Securities. "They swung, and they really missed." The prices on the new phones are "far too high," says Terry Walton, a tourist from Auckland, New Zealand. He has an iPhone 7 and didn't even consider any of the X-series iPhones because it still works just fine. Upgrading "didn't enter my mind at all," he says. It wasn't just iPhones that got price hikes. Apple also upped the cost of the top-of-the-line iPad to $1,000 as well (or over $2,800 for a loaded model) and added $300 to the cost of the Mac Mini and new MacBook Air computers.

148 of 296 comments (clear)

  1. Selling phones because they are expensive by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1

    Apple was on a winner selling their phones, because they were expensive. Clearly their brand is losing its power.

    I thought the poor value XR was priced so third party sellers got a larger cut, not so they could undercut them.

    1. Re:Selling phones because they are expensive by Z00L00K · · Score: 3, Informative

      After the Apple problems highlighted by Louis Rossmann I'm not surprised that customers are careful these days.

      --
      If builders built buildings the way programmers wrote programs, then the first woodpecker would destroy civilization.
    2. Re:Selling phones because they are expensive by dbialac · · Score: 4, Insightful

      Beat your UI over the head with an ugly stick and you lose the premium feel of the UI. Remove the standard headphone jack and you lose customers who care about high fidelity. Add a gimpy notch that makes your screen look like something from "There, I fixed it." and you no longer have a premium device. Now jack the price up and watch what customers you haven't already pissed off walk away. Then again, Jony Ive was in charge of product development the last time Apple went downhill, so none of this should surprise anybody.

    3. Re:Selling phones because they are expensive by alvinrod · · Score: 1

      I don’t know if brand really factors into it if the prices are too high. No matter how much someone wants something, you can’t sell it to them if they can’t afford it. I wouldn’t think to claim that Lamborghini’s brand is suffering just because I haven’t purchased any of their cars.

      The bizarre part with Apple is that the margins are so obscene they could still make more money even with a sales drop, simply because they jacked the prices up enough to compensate. Maybe it’s not even a bad idea if they already knew sales would be down even if they kept prices the same. I’m still using a 6S and just don’t like the newer iPhones so have no desire to upgrade regardless of cost. I think there are others also turned off by the new design.

    4. Re:Selling phones because they are expensive by ranton · · Score: 2

      I don’t know if brand really factors into it if the prices are too high. No matter how much someone wants something, you can’t sell it to them if they can’t afford it. I wouldn’t think to claim that Lamborghini’s brand is suffering just because I haven’t purchased any of their cars.

      The difference between $1k+ Apple phones and Lamborghini's is that most people can afford Apple phones. Too expensive doesn't mean they cannot afford it, it means they would rather spend the money on something else. Buying a $1500 phone every other year is about $60 per month. That is far less than a standard cable bill. Compare that to a $3500 monthly Lamborghini car payment and it's clear why they are fundamentally different. I'd guess about two thirds of the US population can afford a $1k+ iPhone, considering about 70% of them can afford cable TV. Whether or not that is a good idea is another matter.

      --
      -- All that is necessary for the triumph of evil is that good men do nothing. -- Edmund Burke
    5. Re: Selling phones because they are expensive by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1

      Sadly the better android phones cost as much.

      Phones are powerful enough to be an entry level desktop, they should start providing docks to allow that. Then maybe the prices are a little more reasonable

    6. Re: Selling phones because they are expensive by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1

      I have had iPhones for years. Went to get a XR. The $750 model didn't have enough memory. So at least $800. It didn't even have a full HD screen. Also needed a screen protector and case because of its too thin design. Suddenly with sales tax it was pushing$1000.
      I am now using a Moto X4 and Google Fi. The phone cost me $250. It's not bad, once you adjust to the difference between iOS and Android, no problems.
      If Apple comes to their senses, I may change back in a year or two.

    7. Re: Selling phones because they are expensive by reanjr · · Score: 1

      It's still pretty hard to find a $1k Android phone. They exist, but they are not representative of the high end Android market. $650-750 is typical. Which is still super high for a phone without HDMI or dock.

    8. Re:Selling phones because they are expensive by kenh · · Score: 1

      The difference between $1k+ Apple phones and Lamborghini's is that most people can afford Apple phones. Too expensive doesn't mean they cannot afford it, it means they would rather spend the money on something else. Buying a $1500 phone every other year is about $60 per month. That is far less than a standard cable bill. Compare that to a $3500 monthly Lamborghini car payment and it's clear why they are fundamentally different. I'd guess about two thirds of the US population can afford a $1k+ iPhone, considering about 70% of them can afford cable TV. Whether or not that is a good idea is another matter.

      So, because people can afford cable TV, they can afford a $1,000 phone? That makes no sense, and ignores the fact to actually use your $1,000 iPhone you need a $50-100/month cellular plan on top of your "affordable" $42/month ($1,000/24 months) iPhone... But then again, people spend ("can afford") several hundred dollars a month on food, so they can obviously afford $90-140/month for a phone and phone service. /SMH

      --
      Ken
    9. Re: Selling phones because they are expensive by TimMD909 · · Score: 1

      Methinks you have not watched the videos...

    10. Re:Selling phones because they are expensive by Megol · · Score: 1

      This is true, while it's possible to infer trends depending on how components fail it's unlikely a small scale operation could do it reliable. OTOH I guess repair service people talk to each other.

    11. Re:Selling phones because they are expensive by Tough+Love · · Score: 1

      Lamborghini used to be a brand, now it's a kind of Volkswagen and gets blown off the road by much cheaper Teslas.

      --
      When all you have is a hammer, every problem starts to look like a thumb.
    12. Re:Selling phones because they are expensive by Tough+Love · · Score: 1

      People are cutting out cable too, not because they can't afford it but because the value isn't there.

      --
      When all you have is a hammer, every problem starts to look like a thumb.
    13. Re:Selling phones because they are expensive by ranton · · Score: 1

      So, because people can afford cable TV, they can afford a $1,000 phone?

      Yes.

      If someone can afford a $100+ monthly cable bill, or $150+ cable+internet bill, they can afford a $50 monthly cell phone payment along with a $50-$100 cellular plan. Having cable is not like housing or food, it is a luxury item. So everyone you can afford $2000 per year to spend on cable can afford to spend $2000 on any luxury purchase. They may have to cancel their cable bill in order to afford it, but that is still a choice they are capable of making.

      Being able to afford something does not mean you should buy it. If you bought even 1% of the things you could afford you would go broke in days. Being able to afford something simply means you have enough disposable money to pay for it, not that it is a sound financial decision.

      --
      -- All that is necessary for the triumph of evil is that good men do nothing. -- Edmund Burke
    14. Re:Selling phones because they are expensive by nmb3000 · · Score: 1

      The difference between $1k+ Apple phones and Lamborghini's is that most people can afford Apple phones. Too expensive doesn't mean they cannot afford it, it means they would rather spend the money on something else. Buying a $1500 phone every other year is about $60 per month. That is far less than a standard cable bill.

      This seems like it's begging the question, and can lead to similar nonsensical comparison. "Sure this $750 coffee maker seems expensive, but it's only about $30 a month if you buy one every 2 years".

      You're not wrong that people are deciding not to spend the $1000 or $1500 on a phone, but I think people are (very very slowly) waking up to the fact that they have been getting fleeced by Apple and Samsung for the last 6-8 years. Both companies make more than a 50% profit margin on their phones (i.e., they sell them for twice what they cost to build). Aside from the fact that this is completely bonkers for consumer electronics, it's also starting to show that what you get out of these devices is simply not worth the cost.

      I sincerely hope that "budget" phone manufacturers like Motorola begin to take over more market share, just to tighten the screws on Apple and Samsung (and Google, now that they've completely abandoned what the Nexus line was supposed to be), but it's an uphill battle with those companies having worked hard to cement the "it's normal to spend almost $1000 on a phone" mentality. Pretty much the only reason for someone to spend $800+ on a smartphone today is either ignorance or stupidity, and at least ignorance is hopefully on the decline.

      --
      "What do you despise? By this are you truly known." --Princess Irulan, Manual of Muad'Dib
      /)
    15. Re:Selling phones because they are expensive by Kjella · · Score: 1

      Yes. If someone can afford a $100+ monthly cable bill, or $150+ cable+internet bill, they can afford a $50 monthly cell phone payment along with a $50-$100 cellular plan. Having cable is not like housing or food, it is a luxury item. So everyone you can afford $2000 per year to spend on cable can afford to spend $2000 on any luxury purchase.

      Well technically a lot of people could afford a lot of things if they put all their disposable income towards it. And I'll admit, some people do if they have particular hobbies/interests/obsessions. But statistically people are a lot closer to a proportional increase, like if you double their income from $30k to $60k or $60k to $120k they'll not spend it on one thing. They'll get better food and clothes and house and car and so on and so forth. It's highly unlikely someone will cancel their cable bill and go for a $500/head meal at a three star Michelin restaurant, for example. If you can pull up one counter-example where that's some foodie's life dream it's still an anecdote.

      Where am I going with this? That it's much more likely that the person who bought a $1000 phone over a $300 phone also bought a $100k car over a $30k car. Yes, in theory it could be the guy who was considering a $31k car but deciding to spent just $30k on the car and $1k on the phone instead. It's not a very intellectually honest discussion though, unless you're explicitly talking about very rare exceptions and not market conditions in general. Of course you might argue that through functionality, quality, performance or being a status symbol it's a thing people would spend disproportionally more money on but it still wouldn't be close to 100%.

      --
      Live today, because you never know what tomorrow brings
    16. Re:Selling phones because they are expensive by ranton · · Score: 1

      Well technically a lot of people could afford a lot of things if they put all their disposable income towards it.

      This basically just illustrates why asking if you can "afford" something is almost never a good question. Almost every time someone asks that question the answer is yes, because if they really cannot afford it they generally don't even ask the question (they know they cannot afford a Lamborghini or $2 million mansion for instance).

      If you have to literally put all of your disposal income towards a single item, you could arguably say you cannot afford it. But there is an arbitrary point where any purchase which can fit within your disposable income - and doesn't make it hard to buy anything else with that disposable income - is something you can afford.

      --
      -- All that is necessary for the triumph of evil is that good men do nothing. -- Edmund Burke
    17. Re:Selling phones because they are expensive by ranton · · Score: 1

      If you bought even 1% of the things you could afford you would go broke in days.

      If you can 'afford' something and you're broke in days, you can't really afford it can you? You know, by direct definition of the word.

      Being able to afford a single purchase of an item you can afford will never make you broke (by definition). But buying millions of things you can afford in a single day will likely drain your available money instantly. For instance, you can probably afford everything in your local dollar store, but perhaps could not buy everything they have in inventory right now (even though you can afford each item individually).

      This is why asking yourself if you can afford something is almost never a useful question. It is quite clear when you cannot afford something, like a $3500 monthly car payment when you make $50k per year. Anyone who thinks asking "can I afford this?" is a useful question runs the risk of seriously overspending because they are rarely going to look at any individual purchase and say they don't have the money for it.

      Asking something like "how will this purchase affect my budget?" is a far more useful question.

      --
      -- All that is necessary for the triumph of evil is that good men do nothing. -- Edmund Burke
    18. Re: Selling phones because they are expensive by Pieroxy · · Score: 1

      It didn't even have a full HD screen.

      What could you possibly gain from a full HD 6" screen? Trust me, you wouldn't be able to tell the difference except in battery consumption maybe.

  2. Inferior product by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 5, Interesting

    At the prices they charge, I would expect a superior product and build quality.
    You can take your $2800 loaded iPad and bend it easily with your hands, among other flaws. I wouldn't even expect that from a $100 tablet.
    Glad people are starting to wake up to Apple's price gouging and downward slide in quality.

    1. Re:Inferior product by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 4, Funny

      iPologist

    2. Re:Inferior product by AmiMoJo · · Score: 1, Troll

      Were Apple products ever that great? Sure they had some good ones, but they have also been having design defects since at least the 90s when I started paying attention.

      Most of it seems to stem from lack of proper testing, which I can only put down to their insistence on extreme secrecy for new products. Stuff lie the bending (again), antenna problems, dodgy hinges, thermal issues, flakey keyboards...

      --
      const int one = 65536; (Silvermoon, Texture.cs)
      SJW, n: "Someone I don't like, and by the way I'm a fuckwit" - AC
    3. Re:Inferior product by LynnwoodRooster · · Score: 1

      Hmmm... 1TB of storage is expensive? Retail price for 2 x 512 GB microSD cards is around $300. I guess that's why there is a $750 up-charge for the memory - Apple has to pay 2X retail prices and pay for installation into microSD board mounted connectors!

      --
      Browsing at +1 - no ACs, I ignore their posts. So refreshing!
    4. Re: Inferior product by KixWooder · · Score: 1

      I know youre trolling, but im replying anyway. Apple does not use consumer grade flash in their devices.
      Their fastest devices can internally read at close to 900 megabyte/second, and write at about 350 megabyte/second.

      --
      I hate fat people.
    5. Re: Inferior product by David_Hart · · Score: 1

      I know youre trolling, but im replying anyway. Apple does not use consumer grade flash in their devices.

      Their fastest devices can internally read at close to 900 megabyte/second, and write at about 350 megabyte/second.

      Apple is not using some sort of special flash that costs them 3x the retail price of the fastest flash storage on the market today. It seems a bit naive to think this.

      A 1TB Samsung 970 M.2 SSD is $250 retail and has 3.5GBps read and 2.7GBps write. If Apple is paying wholesale with a volume discount for their flash chips, it's quite easy to see that they are still applying a huge up-charge for extra storage.

      Don't get me wrong, I dislike Microsoft for charging 2x to 3x more for Surface Pro models with increased storage... They all do it, some more egregious than others. Apple just happens to charge more.

      This is why it's important to retain the ability to upgrade RAM and storage. But those days are pretty much gone.

    6. Re: Inferior product by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1

      They are using special flash that nobody else is using in competing devices. They developed a standard for NAND longevity and only implement NAND flash in iOS devices that conform to that standard. The result is that their flash storage is designed for 3-10x longevity over competition. In addition, Apple devices only use PCIe attached flash; yes, there is a full blown PCIe bus external to the SoC in an iPhone. Comparing flash performance between the competitors and an Apple device is like asking who is going to win a race between an F1 car and a soapbox car. This is all verifiable in specifications, not opinion.

    7. Re: Inferior product by TimMD909 · · Score: 1

      It was rebranded as iRate after the sales report...

    8. Re: Inferior product by dgatwood · · Score: 1

      They are using special flash that nobody else is using in competing devices. They developed a standard for NAND longevity and only implement NAND flash in iOS devices that conform to that standard.

      Nope. NAND flash itself doesn't implement wear leveling. The flash controller does. And although it is possible to get NAND flash parts with an integrated controller in the same package, in practice, any large-capacity device like an iPhone or iPad is likely to use a separate flash controller chip instead so that it can drive multiple flash parts, because AFAIK any integrated design basically limits you to the capacity of a single flash part.

      Apple might elect to use a larger number of lower-density parts with a lower number of levels on each flash cell than what you might get in an SD card. (AFAIK, Apple uses either MLC or TLC, whereas some SD cards *might* be using QLC.) But other than that, the actual NAND flash silicon is bog standard NAND flash.

      --

      Check out my sci-fi/humor trilogy at PatriotsBooks.

  3. demand elasticity by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1

    While I have no doubt that lowering prices would significantly increase demand, I wonder how much raising prices even more would decrease demand. Many many people are completely committed to iPhones, and will be willing to pay much more than the current prices to not have to switch to Android. I wonder if Apple would actually make the biggest profit by fleecing these people instead of going after people who are more price sensitive and are willing to switch or already have switched to Android.

    1. Re:demand elasticity by Hognoxious · · Score: 1

      While I have no doubt that lowering prices would significantly increase demand

      Perhaps you should take economics 101.

      Pay particular attention to Veblen goods and Giffen goods. It's left an an exercise for the reader to determine which is relevant here ...

      --
      Confucius say, "Find worm in apple - bad. Find half a worm - worse."
    2. Re:demand elasticity by Nidi62 · · Score: 4, Interesting

      While I have no doubt that lowering prices would significantly increase demand, I wonder how much raising prices even more would decrease demand. Many many people are completely committed to iPhones, and will be willing to pay much more than the current prices to not have to switch to Android. I wonder if Apple would actually make the biggest profit by fleecing these people instead of going after people who are more price sensitive and are willing to switch or already have switched to Android.

      Increasing prices even further would kill the 1-2 year upgrade cycle they try to push everyone into. Why pay $1500+ for a new phone when your 2 year old phone still works fine and is maybe even subjectively superior to the new model due to "upgrades" that affect usability? People are already starting to hold on to their iPhones longer. It's part of the reason why Apple worked with all the carriers to start those plans that are effectively 1-2 year leases where you upgrade your phone each year to the new model.

      --
      The only thing necessary for evil to triumph is for it to be pitted against a slightly greater evil
    3. Re:demand elasticity by fluffernutter · · Score: 1

      I've had to migrate data from iOS to Android before. I can completely understand why people stay with iPhones. Very difficult to migrate all your data, especially notes.

      --
      Laws are rules for the court, but merely a bottom bar to hit for life. Think beyond laws in your actions always.
    4. Re: demand elasticity by bn-7bc · · Score: 1

      Hmm I must be lucky the my 6s still runs ok (ok I donâ(TM)t game on it) so my views might not represent yours, for me the nex opgrade will be either when my 6s braks oe when apple launces it second gen 5g Iphone

    5. Re:demand elasticity by Crashmarik · · Score: 1

      While I have no doubt that lowering prices would significantly increase demand

      Perhaps you should take economics 101.

      Pay particular attention to Veblen goods and Giffen goods. It's left an an exercise for the reader to determine which is relevant here ...

      It's not that binary. Even Mercedes has more affordable models within its portfolio.

    6. Re: demand elasticity by KixWooder · · Score: 1

      The average iPhone owners keeps their phone for three years, according to Apple.

      --
      I hate fat people.
    7. Re:demand elasticity by gnasher719 · · Score: 1

      Increasing prices even further would kill the 1-2 year upgrade cycle they try to push everyone into.

      Who is 'they'? Not Apple. My current iPhone is about four years old. I'll replace it when it stops working. It just got a brand new original Apple battery for £25.

      Apple has actually worked _against_ pushing people into upgrades by releasing 6/6s, 7/7s 8/8s where each model was indistinguishable from the previous one unless you had a very, very close look, so your friends couldn't say "ok look, that poor guy is using an old phone".

    8. Re:demand elasticity by HornWumpus · · Score: 1

      Apple did, until this year.

      Certainly, the gold apple watch was. They sold about two of those.

      --
      John McAfee 'It was like that time I hired that Bangkok prostitute; to do my taxes, while I fucked my accountant'
    9. Re:demand elasticity by thegarbz · · Score: 1

      It's part of the reason why Apple worked with all the carriers to start those plans that are effectively 1-2 year leases where you upgrade your phone each year to the new model.

      Huh? Wait what? I remember getting a Nokia 5110 on that plan over 20 years ago back when Apple started selling brightly pink coloured plastic shit and calling it computers. Are you saying it took Apple to introduce in the USA what has been common in the rest of the world for many years prior?

    10. Re: demand elasticity by dgatwood · · Score: 1

      Mine is great except the battery. It keeps degrading further and further, despite it claiming to still have 95% of its life (I've seen it lose 50% of its battery capacity in single-digit minutes). I can't afford to waste two or three hours at an Apple store to get the battery replaced, so I'm going to order one and swap it myself (~15 minutes, assuming it is similar to the iPhone 5) after the holidays. I figure that should give me another three or four years.

      --

      Check out my sci-fi/humor trilogy at PatriotsBooks.

    11. Re: demand elasticity by tigersha · · Score: 1

      Me. I like Apple and I have a iPhone 6 and a MBP 2013 which sees a lot of action.

      --
      The dangers of excessive individualism are nothing compared to the oppressiveness of excessive collectivism
    12. Re: demand elasticity by dgatwood · · Score: 1

      You want to kill-off your iPhone? Put some bullshit greymarket battery in it. There really IS a difference!

      A third-party replacement batteries can't realistically be as bad as the piece of s**t battery that Apple put in the phone to begin with. I've been tolerating early shutdowns for more than two years now, which is to say that the factory battery only really lasted for an appallingly short nine months.

      Hmm. It looks like Apple expanded the serial number range for their recall, and mine is now within the range. The only question is whether it is worth switching back to my iPhone 5 for a week to have them do it or... nah. Still easier to just do it myself.

      --

      Check out my sci-fi/humor trilogy at PatriotsBooks.

    13. Re: demand elasticity by dgatwood · · Score: 1

      Heh. They also want $49 for the "free" repair. F*** Apple.

      --

      Check out my sci-fi/humor trilogy at PatriotsBooks.

    14. Re: demand elasticity by Pieroxy · · Score: 1

      But it doesn't matter, you're outright lying about your battery drain.

      I haven't seen anyone that cocky in a loooong time. I got Apple to switch my iPhone 6s+ battery a month ago for €30. It was at about 70%.

      Maybe, just maybe, our usage and yours are not the same? And nobody is outright lying?

  4. And Worse by Bigbutt · · Score: 5, Interesting

    The problems are becoming aggravating enough that I'm reviewing my options for the next upgrade.

    My music library doesn't completely load. I have playlists that show all the songs but when you click to play, it grays out as unavailable. If I plug the phone or tablet in and sync, it'll sync up a couple of thousand different songs but other songs will then gray out. This is with about 50G of "free space" per iTunes.

    The spacebar issue. For some reason, in more recent versions of IOS, I keep missing the spacebar and have posts with concatenated words. I don't know why it's doing it all of a sudden but it's damned annoying.

    The music thing pisses me off the most though. Go through the trouble to create a playlist, go to listen to music during my commute and half the songs are missing.

    [John]

    --
    Shit better not happen!
    1. Re:And Worse by fluffernutter · · Score: 1

      And still no custom launcher, or widgets on the home screen.

      --
      Laws are rules for the court, but merely a bottom bar to hit for life. Think beyond laws in your actions always.
    2. Re:And Worse by denguydj · · Score: 5, Informative

      I know this sounds weird but try changing the name of the phone. It worked for me and it fixed the Bluetooth stuttering I was having. No idea why in hell why the name of the phone would effect music play back, its beyond me.

    3. Re:And Worse by wwphx · · Score: 1

      My problem is with Notes and Contacts. I won't be able to find a note on my phone, but it'll still be on my iMac, so I'll update it there and it'll automagically reappear on my phone. And don't get me started on contacts! Major PITB with my Christmas card list this year! They need an option where I can declare 'This device is the master, push it out to all my other devices'. Music works OK for me, it's the Podcast app that's the biggest pain in my experience, but it's also the one that I use the most. I had to abandon it when 11.0 came out and it broke the 'play the next episode when this one is done' mode, something that some people might consider fundamental. Their inability to flag an episode on the phone as played is a stupid feature removal.

      I doubt I'm going to move beyond a 6S (currently on a 6) because of the headphone jack issue. My wife's car doesn't have BT and we're not going to replace the car, or its stereo, or start messing with a firk-ding-blast BT dongle to make my phone work in her car for trips. I'm considering going back to a 5S because I prefer the smaller form factor.

      Myself, I think things have gone downhill since Jobs died. I think MBAs have taken over and the company has shifted to Profit Uber Alles rather than making products that can be the best that they can be.

      --
      When you sympathize with stupidity, you start thinking like an idiot.
    4. Re: And Worse by sound+vision · · Score: 1

      ITunes is its own particular brand of junk, among Apple products. I remember around 2006/7, when the classic iPods still at least had build quality going for them, I won one in a contest... Feature-wise, my Rio Karma ca. 2003 blew it out of the water, but the scroll wheel snapped off after too many drops onto the concrete. So I decided to keep the iPod. But in no way could I abide by iTunes. Its grabby insistence on moving and altering any file you loaded into it filled me with dread, even after (hopefully) disabling all such file management options... I gave up on iTunes real quick and found a third party program to manage it. It was missing some of the minor features like play counts, but at least I didn't have to worry about my *music player* installing multiple root-level services, autostarting systray icons, auto-moving my carefully organized files around... (The ones that it supported anyway, it wouldn't read any FLACs)

      Then around 2010 I got an iTunes gift card. Thankfully they *had* removed the DRM at that point, so I could actually use the gift card to purchase and listen to music. The catch was I did have to reinstall iTunes and navigate the menus at least once.. Ouch! Still a pile of crap, even without the DRM. What I'm hearing now is the subsequent 8 years haven't made much improvement.

  5. If people are paying the price why will it go down by jellomizer · · Score: 5, Interesting

    There is a big selection of Android phones from the Low End cheap sub $100 phones to the high end phones that are a fraction of a dollar less then what Apple sells, which are arguably just as nice or for some people much better.
    However people are still paying more of the Apple phones. So why would lower its prices until it really has too.

    Apple rarely gets suckered to the race to the bottom game, even it costs them market share.
    Here is how the race to the bottom game works.
    Company A offers a product at a high price.
    Company B offers a similar product at a lower Price (often with some minor quality issues that is barely noticed).
    Company A offers a product at a lower cost then B, however to meet the cost they have to cut its quality down.
    Company B then goes makes an even crappier product to compete against A. ...
    What we end up with is 2 products that no one really wants to buy because they are so poor.

    We have seen this with Gateway 2000. Back in the mid 1990's gateway actually sold quality custom built PC's they were more expensive, but people gladly paid for them because they used good components. Then by the late 1990's they were competing against the lower end system to dominate the market, and end up with system that were Crap. In which Dell took over.

    Apples approach is to maximize profit, not market share, if they can do both great, but they will error on the side of profit. So when company B makes a lower cost competitor Apple then tries to make a much better unit and charge more for it.

    Now did they hit the limit? This article says yes, but we will see. Consumers always say the prices are too high.

    --
    If something is so important that you feel the need to post it on the internet... It probably isn't that important.
  6. No motivation to upgrade by Brian+Kendig · · Score: 5, Insightful

    I'm an iOS developer and a longtime Apple fan, but I'm having trouble finding a reason to upgrade from my iPhone 6S (even though Apple's offering me $200 in trade-in value for it).

    Honestly, the lack of a headphone jack is a big thing for me. I listen to music all day at the office with my iPhone and an expensive set of headphones. It's a simple use case. No reason why I should have to bother with dongles or batteries.

    1. Re:No motivation to upgrade by gnasher719 · · Score: 2, Interesting

      I'm an iOS developer and a longtime Apple fan, but I'm having trouble finding a reason to upgrade from my iPhone 6S (even though Apple's offering me $200 in trade-in value for it).

      I think you mean that as a critique, but really that's the best recommendation you could make for buying Apple products.

    2. Re:No motivation to upgrade by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1

      You need courage. Lots of it.

    3. Re:No motivation to upgrade by magusxxx · · Score: 2

      Agreed. I was more than happy with my iPhone 5c. Except the battery was only about 50% available.

      Now I have an iPhone SE which continually has problems with Podcasts. (Something which oddly enough always occurs when a model is about to be orphaned.)

      --
      Care killed the cat, but satisfaction brought it back.
    4. Re:No motivation to upgrade by PrimaryConsult · · Score: 1

      Consider that Samsung still has the headphone jack in their flagship phone, and the fact that the Android UI manages to be more consistent and usable than iOS (the back button is in the same place!) they may have just shot themselves in the foot.

      I went with LG because not only does it have the headphone jack, it still has removable storage (in addition to wireless charging). Currently sitting with 32+128GB of space. I probably won't need to upgrade again for another 2 years (and likely would still go for an LG, so long as they still have removable storage).

    5. Re:No motivation to upgrade by Brian+Kendig · · Score: 1

      I bought a Redmi Note 4 for $179 to learn Android on because it was compatible with LineageOS. I've thought about making it my everyday phone, because I'd much rather subject a $179 phone to daily wear-and-tear than something three (or more) times as expensive.

      The only thing that's stopped me is that I don't see an easy solution for syncing my contacts, music, and other data from macOS to an Android phone (especially as I don't use Google services). If there's an app that'll sync the data for me, please point me to it?

    6. Re:No motivation to upgrade by zlives · · Score: 1

      but not for upgrading as apple would like us to...
      also still doesn't justifies the cost markup.

    7. Re:No motivation to upgrade by Brian+Kendig · · Score: 1

      AirPods have batteries in them and need to be charged every five hours. They won't even make it through a full day without a recharge. Plus, batteries deteriorate over time and eventually won't even last for five hours. And with AirPods, you actually have to be concerned with three batteries - one in each earpiece and one in the travel case.

      I don't need remote control over my music because I have my iPhone on the desk next to me. And I don't want tiny separate expensive earpieces; I want big headphones so that people can instantly see that I am listening to music and not to them.

      AirPods are a great solution for certain situations that aren't the one I have.

    8. Re:No motivation to upgrade by PrimaryConsult · · Score: 1

      Yup mine is only slightly newer than the V20. It does everything I want and can forsee - I'll likely have gotten a good 4-5 years out of it before upgrading again.

    9. Re: No motivation to upgrade by Brian+Kendig · · Score: 1

      OP here. To clarify: I have expensive (well, $150, which is more than an impulse buy) headphones because I don't want to hear my cubicle neighbor talking to herself all day. I'm trying to get work done, I'm not worrying all that much about audio fidelity.

      I don't want to get rid of perfectly good headphones just to buy the Bluetooth version, and I don't like that the other option is to get a third-party adapter that will let me plug in the headphones and charge at the same time. (I've had bad experiences with third-party Lightning adapters.)

    10. Re:No motivation to upgrade by Tough+Love · · Score: 1

      that's the best recommendation you could make for buying Apple products.

      Maybe, but that product no longer exists except in the second hand market. Anyway, most people who switch from Apple to Android end up wondering why they didn't do it sooner.

      --
      When all you have is a hammer, every problem starts to look like a thumb.
    11. Re:No motivation to upgrade by Brian+Kendig · · Score: 1

      Thank you!

  7. It had to stop somewhere by Ecuador · · Score: 5, Insightful

    Their sales start dropping and they simply start increasing prices to keep increasing profits. Their beyond-reason loyal fanbase enabled that for a while, but this is getting ridiculous, goes against any logic so could not possibly be sustained for long.
    They have to be careful - I mean their 30% cut on all content makes a big chunk of their revenue (second only to the aforementioned ridiculously marked-up iphones), not offering an affordable way to hook people into that revenue stream will have severe long-term consequences. Other companies would give away hardware at cost for the chance of hooking people into that 30% content revenue deal, but Apple is trying to sell $300 worth of hardware for over $1000 based only on their name and gimmick-level innovations, in the anti-capitalist notion of increasing income simply by increasing prices.

    --
    Violence is the last refuge of the incompetent. Polar Scope Align for iOS
    1. Re:It had to stop somewhere by JBMcB · · Score: 1

      Their beyond-reason loyal fanbase enabled that for a while, but this is getting ridiculous, goes against any logic so could not possibly be sustained for long.

      So the fan base is unreasonable, but their prices are beyond reason, so their beyond-reason fanbase is now rebelling against the unreasonable price increases. Right.

      in the anti-capitalist notion of increasing income simply by increasing prices.

      You can charge whatever you want for your product in a free market economy, but that doesn't mean anyone will buy it. People will buy it if they think it provides value to them. You're free to do your own cost benefit analysis. There isn't even a requirement to own one of these things. Everyone got along just fine before smart phones.

      --
      My Other Computer Is A Data General Nova III.
    2. Re:It had to stop somewhere by nasch · · Score: 1

      Their sales start dropping and they simply start increasing prices to keep increasing profits.

      That's sometimes referred to as a death spiral. However, so far iPhone sales have just flattened out, not dropped significantly. If they do start tanking, we'll see if Apple can figure out what to do about it.

      https://www.statista.com/stati...

  8. Longtime fan, about to get off the train by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 2, Interesting

    I've been a long time Apple fan. Switched everything over to Macs in the early 2000's.

    Currently, I have an 11 year old Mac Pro I'm using and a 2007 iMac. Was hoping to upgrade the iMac before Christmas. But new ones didn't show.

    The Mac Pro drives me crazy. Every time I start Word, it yells at me to upgrade my OS. I can't upgrade my OS. I have to get a new machine. The current Mac Pro is garbage. The new Mac Pro probably will be as well. And supremely over priced.

    I don't mind spending a ton of money on a computer. As long as I know it will last. I don't like upgrading my hardware very often.

    I'm not excited about getting off the platform. But I think it's about time to make it happen.

    1. Re:Longtime fan, about to get off the train by jellomizer · · Score: 2

      While I still use an iPhone (Mostly due to the trusted Apps I have installed and integration with work) and have an Apple TV (Mostly due to the fact that I have an iPhone). I got off the Mac Platform back in 2012.
      Basically by that time the writing was on the wall that Apple really didn't care much for the Mac Platform and was going to the iOS direction. I do most of my programming for Web Based Applications, not device particular apps. There really wasn't much special about the Mac Platform, that I couldn't do with a hybrid Linux/Windows system. With a normal PC, I had a larger selection of features I can choose form. Dropping features I don't care about and getting ones that I do.

      --
      If something is so important that you feel the need to post it on the internet... It probably isn't that important.
    2. Re:Longtime fan, about to get off the train by gnasher719 · · Score: 3, Informative

      The Mac Pro drives me crazy. Every time I start Word, it yells at me to upgrade my OS. I can't upgrade my OS. I have to get a new machine. The current Mac Pro is garbage. The new Mac Pro probably will be as well. And supremely over priced.

      You have an 11 year old Mac Pro, and you are complaining that it didn't last? Seriously?

      If you are using an 11 year old Mac Pro, then you don't need a new one. A midrange iMac will make you sooo happy.

    3. Re:Longtime fan, about to get off the train by prisoner-of-enigma · · Score: 2

      A midrange iMac will make you sooo happy.

      A midrange Mac will cost you as much as a high-end PC while offering less functionality. I'm currently running a Core i7-4790K, a CPU launched in 2014 and discontinued in 2017. I picked up the CPU on eBay for $50. My prior CPU was a Core i5-2500K -- released in 2011 -- which is still running in my daughter's PC.

      Apple makes its margin on its premium products, therefore their "midrange" products are more akin to low-end PC components. Apple has no incentive to offer you anything in the "value" segment as it would merely detract from forcing you to buy their premium line.

      --
      In the end they will lay their freedom at our feet and say to us, Make us your slaves, but feed us. - Fyodor Dostoyevsky
    4. Re:Longtime fan, about to get off the train by bkmoore · · Score: 2

      I've been a long time Apple fan. ...

      Even longer fan. Had an Apple //e back when it was new. Apple's been down this road before, and almost went out of business because they (1) thought they had the best products and ignored the competition, (2) assumed they could charge customers whatever they wanted, and (3) had the slowest upgrade cycle in the industry. I see a lot of parallels between Apple today under Tim Cook and Apple in the post- pre- Steve Jobs era and they're making the same false assumptions. I suspect the people at the top have their billions, so they could care less about the long-term health of the company.

    5. Re:Longtime fan, about to get off the train by fluffernutter · · Score: 1

      Then don't buy a mac pro.. I'm ready to get my worn out USB-C ports replaced for a second time, with a laptop going on 2 years old. Also my keyboard had to be replaced. Once I got paranoid about blowing the keyboard out pretty much every time I use it, the keyboard seems ok.... but it's still an Albatross around my neck because i might blow it out, only to have it fail a month after the Applecare is over.

      --
      Laws are rules for the court, but merely a bottom bar to hit for life. Think beyond laws in your actions always.
    6. Re:Longtime fan, about to get off the train by drinkypoo · · Score: 1

      "If you are using an 11 year old Mac Pro, then you don't need a new one. A midrange iMac will make you sooo happy."

      It lasted him 11 years because it was a pro. Only now they don't have a pro worthy of the name, so what should he buy? Answer, a PC.

      --
      "You're right," Fisheye says. "I should have set it on 'whip' or 'chop.'"
    7. Re:Longtime fan, about to get off the train by samwichse · · Score: 1

      I'm using a 9 year old Optiplex 980, and I don't see why it wouldn't last at least another 5 years. I've got 2x4gb sticks and 2x2gb sticks in it. It maxes out at 4x4gb = 16gb. Got a nice SATA SSD in there, too. Works great for the office work and mild crunching I do on it.

      Most Mac Pros will hold a lot more memory than that and have a lot more processing oomph, but you can't upgrade MacOS. I see why he's annoyed. I've got a pair of them running Linux right now. It would work pretty well, but if the systems are suspended, they hard freeze. So it's not really usable... there's probably some solution to that, but I haven't checked.

      Sam

  9. They're killing themselves by smooth+wombat · · Score: 5, Insightful

    In their grand hunt for more profits, Apple is killing the golden goose. The blunder of the latest iPhone rollouts, their continued irrelevance of their iPad/Book/Pro lines with similarly high prices and underperformance, combined with their entire abandonment of anything desktop related, Apple will, unless there is a huge shakeup, fade back into the backwaters of computing history.

    While there will always be people gullible enough to shell out $1,000 for a phone which plays music, the inflection point of people waking up to the reality of how much money they're wasting on phones is coming due. With only incremental "improvements", justifying exorbitant costs for meager gains will and is starting to come into play.

    At this point, there isn't a good justification to buy an Apple phone other than its supposed exclusivity and for its fanboys. There isn't even a reason to buy their overpriced laptops which require multiple adapters to get it to work.

    Apple needs to get its act together, and soon. The goose is getting long in the tooth and its ability to continue laying golden eggs is becoming doubtful. There is a huge market for people who are tired of Microsoft's crap, yet Apple seems vowed and determined to ignore those tens of millions of potential customers, all because they can make a few bucks now on a phone.

    --
    We will bankrupt ourselves in the vain search for absolute security. -- Dwight D. Eisenhower
  10. mac pro 2019 starting at $5999 with a high base by Joe_Dragon · · Score: 1

    mac pro 2019 starting at $5999 with a high base that people really don't need.

  11. XS biting back by OneHundredAndTen · · Score: 4, Funny

    When you call a product excess, many customers are going to get a message that you did not intend to send.

  12. It's even worse if you're a demanding user by sandbagger · · Score: 1

    There was a theme in 1950s science fiction about degraded societies who could use technology but after a disaster could no longer manufacture or even properly understand it. This is how I look at Apple today. I look at the two Mac Pro 5,1s in front of me right now and see no replacement for them, and no replacement for them on the horizon.

    There's not even a hint of embarrassment about it. Saying you want pro level workstations is like talking a foreign language in the Apple world. Look, a laptop with an E-GPU is not substitute for a workstation and in the case of a desktop, needing to add an E-GPU is an idiotic solution when the video cards are literally designed to pop into card slots, so no, a Mac mini is not a solution.

    They've become a company of telephones. And, barring an course correction, my next computers will be Hackintoshes.

    --
    ---- The above post was generated by the Turing Institute. Maybe.
    1. Re: It's even worse if you're a demanding user by sandbagger · · Score: 1

      I'm techncial enough that I don't imagine this will be a problem. Thanks, mind.

      --
      ---- The above post was generated by the Turing Institute. Maybe.
    2. Re:It's even worse if you're a demanding user by Alypius · · Score: 1

      This is the world of Warhammer 40k, where techpriests worship machine spirits.

  13. Re:If people are paying the price why will it go d by omnichad · · Score: 4, Informative

    Apple rarely gets suckered to the race to the bottom game, even it costs them market share.

    They had a pretty large share of the market. Simply not raising their prices and being a familiar OS would have let them hold that market for a long time. A small number of high margin devices is their old business model. They had moved to moderate margin and a huge number of units is what they've been doing ever since the runaway success of the iPhone. Their real problem is that their older phones are still good enough and they should have always expected sales to slow to the replacement level once they owned the market.

  14. This has all happened before by MBGMorden · · Score: 5, Insightful

    This basically is starting to remind me of the cycle Apple went through back in the late 80's to early 90's. Back then Apples were seen as very high quality and the easiest most user friendly computers to own. They costed a lot, but if you had the money it was the way to go.

    PCs kept getting built better though, and Windows started becoming a viable work GUI in the 90's after the 3.0 release. Eventually even if you preferred Apple it made little sense when a PC that worked just as good was 1/3 to 1/2 the cost. Even now after the company's rebound their traditional computer market share is a mere fraction of standard PC's.

    Now, the same thing is happening with phones. For a long time Apple was the clear winner if you wanted a phone that "just worked". You paid a little extra but it was great. Now though, Android devices have pretty much caught up completely in hardware and software, while still being priced less. If you want a dirt cheap phone sure there are the sub-$100 options out there, but even at the premium level you can go Android and save a few hundred dollars vs Apple.

    Particularly without Jobs at the helm, I see Apple's market share as continuing to drop within the next couple years. In a decade I'd wager Apple's marketshare on the phone market will be at or below 15%.

    --
    "People who think they know everything are very annoying to those of us who do."-Mark Twain
    1. Re:This has all happened before by Radical+Moderate · · Score: 1

      Pretty much. My iPhone 4 was about a hundred times better than the Android that preceded it, but it got replaced by an Android. Because the Android OS and apps are now good enough, and the hardware is a fraction of what Apple charges. Just not worth it for me to stay on the Apple train.

      The Macbook Air used to be a somewhat reasonably-priced machine, now it's almost as much as a Pro. I still like my old Air, but if MS can just figure out how to do virtual desktops right, it will be my last Mac.

      --
      Never let a lack of data get in the way of a good rant.
    2. Re:This has all happened before by Solandri · · Score: 1

      Apple's share of the phone market has been below 15% for several years. There are quarters where it blips above (coincides with new iPhone releases), but the average has been below 15%. You probably didn't notice because the media seems extremely reluctant to publish negative news about Apple products. I still remember when iPad market share slipped below 50%, the only mention I found was buried two thirds of the way through a market analysis report.

      It's primarily the English-speaking countries (U.S., UK, Canada, Australia), Scandinavia, and Japan (they have an anti-Korea bias, so few Samsung and LG devices sell there) where the iPhone has market share on par with Android. Everywhere else is dominated by Android.

  15. I gave up on phones by nospam007 · · Score: 1

    Since I hate phoning I went for an iPad mini instead, a tablet instead of a phablet.
    Much bigger screen and much cheaper for people like me who use only messengers, imessages, whatsapp and facetime.

    1. Re:I gave up on phones by Camembert · · Score: 1

      How do you use WhatsApp on your iPad mini?

  16. Seen quite a few people peeved at headphone jack i by AbRASiON · · Score: 4, Insightful

    It's just a totally unnecessary change. It's clearly not about space at all.

    I'm not paying more for a device fractionally faster, without a convenient thumb unlock or headphone jack.

    And yes. I've owned 4 of the last top end iPads in a row. I'm done.

  17. Price Gouging by ytene · · Score: 4, Insightful

    One of the most outrageous parts of Apple's pricing strategy can be found in the way that they differentiate between models in the same range that differ only based on storage capacity.

    For example, consider the new (no Home button) iPad. In the UK, there are 4 models offered in the range:-

    64Gb - £769
    256Gb - £919
    512Gb - £1,119
    1Tb - £1,519

    Yes, that's £1,519 or approximately £1950 for the *starting point* in price for a 1Tb iPad. Now, on the one hand, if you really want a terabyte tablet, expect to pay for that. On the other hand, look at the difference in price between the 512Gb and 1Tb versions - no less than £400.

    However, if you go to say Amazon and check the price of a 512Gb Samsung 970 Pro M2 PCI Express SSD (close to if not the fastest-performing drive at that capacity), you'll pay £176.78 for a boxed, retail part.

    In other words, Apple (a company that bought a memory/storage manufacturing business and which manufactures a significant portion of the RAM they use in-house) are charging comfortably more than twice as much for RAM packaged in one of their products (i.e. with the addition of one or two more chips on a standard circuit board) than a company offering a stand-alone, retail part.

    The reason they're doing this is because they can. However, there's a slim chance that, as the markets saturate and as Chump's trade practices continue to bite, Apple will be left with a choice between cutting prices or slashing profits.

    And/or we can just move to a different vendor or significantly reduce the replacement cycle of existing Apple kit.

    1. Re:Price Gouging by aaarrrgggh · · Score: 1

      Bought the new 11” iPad on Saturday, and went with 512GB for just that reason— the premium to go with more storage than I could envision a use for was just too high. But, 512GB gives me plenty for now. I had budgeted for a new Mac as well, but decided to hold off for now and see what happens.

      My only real complaint so far (beyond needing to restore music from iCloud) is the need to buy a new set of chargers and cables that support USB-C. Really makes a streamlined travel setup a pain in the ass.

      On, and I know it is just anecdotal, but my Apple store was packed all day with people buying stuff.

    2. Re:Price Gouging by MMC+Monster · · Score: 1

      On Black Friday there were sales on the previous generation 10.5" iPad Pro. Picked up the 512GB version and exceedingly happy with it so far. I think the offer (at Best Buy) was $200 off of list price.

      You get relatively great deals if you live off of the edge. And, frankly, this iPad was the best available up until a few months ago. Why wouldn't I be happy with it.

      --
      Help! I'm a slashdot refugee.
  18. I ended up doing my kid's every 2 years by rsilvergun · · Score: 1

    though I now suspect that was due to a failing battery. Her 8 I'm gonna make her get a new battery for when the time comes :).

    --
    Hi! I make Firefox Plug-ins. Check 'em out @ https://addons.mozilla.org/en-US/firefox/addon/youtube-mp3-podcaster/
  19. Reality check by gnasher719 · · Score: 1

    Here's the reality: Apple hasn't increased any iPhone prices whatsoever.

    The cheapest models are gone. The iPhone 7 to iPhone 8s+ have all become cheaper, without exception. The iPhone X has been replaced with an improved model for the same price. And there are two new models, one at a top end price, one considerably lower.

    The highest prices are all for storage options that were not available before.

    1. Re:Reality check by Dunbal · · Score: 1

      That's like saying Dodge really hasn't increased prices at all. Just you can expect to pay the same price as a Vyper for every car!

      --
      Seven puppies were harmed during the making of this post.
  20. Re:If people are paying the price why will it go d by Kjella · · Score: 2

    Apples approach is to maximize profit, not market share, if they can do both great, but they will error on the side of profit.

    They'll certainly error on the side of profit margin, but that's not what brought Apple to be one of the world's most profitable companies. The iPod/iPhone/iPad was by no means cheap, but it could sell to a normal middle class market like BMW to use a car analogy. Now I feel like Apple is retreating back into Ferrari market, sure there has been and will be a market for luxury sports cars but it's not huge. That Apple is taking away the low-end options like the SE and the small Mini is a clear sign they were cannibalizing the market as people look for cheaper ways to stay in/get in the Apple ecosystem. So they raise the bar and say you must be this rich to buy Apple, it can work as long as people are tied up in iTunes purchases and iCloud and whatnot... but if they make the switch it's bye-bye Apple.

    They can survive some skew in that the people with the most money to buy phones are also those who spend the most money buying apps, but 9 out of 10 times the mainstream end up crushing niche applications. Think like the workstation market, mainframe market or what Blackberry was like. What I don't like is that it's Google taking over, our lead data miner. Even with Microsoft trying to be a mini-Google they're nothing to the Big Daddy of tracking. But I think Apple will find that as they're retreating back into the high end, they'll find it terribly hard to stop when they want to stop.

    --
    Live today, because you never know what tomorrow brings
  21. Apple is hitting the inflection point by timholman · · Score: 1

    So far increased prices have kept revenues up as sales have declined. That train is now running out of steam.

    I have a 6 year old MacBook Pro that needs to be upgraded. There's nothing available from Apple that I can buy. I do consulting work that requires me to be able to remove the SSD. I can't do that with any current Apple models, although competitors like Dell seem perfectly capable of offering removable storage.

    Ditto for my aging Mac Pro. What is there to replace it with? The latest Mac Mini refresh is a joke, and the iMac Pro is ridiculously overpriced, again with soldered SSDs.

    I have an iPhone 8 that I'll keep until it falls apart, for no other reason than I refuse to buy a phone with a larger screen. If I wanted to carry something as big as the XR or XS, I'd buy a Samsung.

    To be fair, the Apple Watch is still a good product, as are the AirPods. Not everything has turned to crap in the Apple product line, but far too much has. The only thing that keeps Apple going (in my opinion) is that the competition is even worse. Every competitor who could possibly upend Apple seems bound and determined to copy Apple's worst impulses instead.

    But any way you look at it, Apple is headed straight for a brick wall with the iPhone monoculture. Apple will have nothing to fall back on except for its services.

    I expect that Tim Cook will be gone within five years, but what if his replacement is just another John Sculley? It is depressing to see what has happened to a once-great company.

    1. Re:Apple is hitting the inflection point by aaarrrgggh · · Score: 1

      Just get a usb-c thumb drive for sensitive data, and if there is a data security policy on the internal ssd, just wipe the drive when you leave.

      And for what it is worth, if you want a high performance desktop, the new mini is actually a pretty good value if you upgrade the RAM yourself and use a NAS for bulk storage.

    2. Re:Apple is hitting the inflection point by gnasher719 · · Score: 1

      There's nothing available from Apple that I can buy. I do consulting work that requires me to be able to remove the SSD.

      That's a problem that you share with how many people? And I suppose you are paid well for your consulting work, so you can easily afford to buy a new MacBook for it, do your consulting work, let them wipe the hard drive, and sell it on eBay. Then you add the money you lost to the bill.

  22. Re:If people are paying the price why will it go d by jellomizer · · Score: 1

    The problem is there are getting too many competitors in the middle class market. Where it use to be just Samsung, we have Google, Ericson, LG... All jumping into that market too.

    --
    If something is so important that you feel the need to post it on the internet... It probably isn't that important.
  23. Courage by fluffernutter · · Score: 1

    Maybe this is the cost of having "courage".

    --
    Laws are rules for the court, but merely a bottom bar to hit for life. Think beyond laws in your actions always.
  24. Latest phones aren't what I want. by Clomer · · Score: 2

    Here's my 2 cents, FWIW.

    I have a 5S that I bought when it was the top-of-the-line flagship iPhone. It's served me really well.

    Every time a new model has been released, I have evaluated whether it was worth the cost of upgrading given the amount of improvement I would see. With the 6 and 7 series, the only real difference in terms of how I would use it would be the addition of Apple Pay. The technical performance isn't enough better to be worth the price tag (at least to me) and Apple Pay isn't available in the stores that I would use it most if it were an option. So, those are out.

    I have no real interest in the X because I don't want FaceID. Let me stick with using my thumb with TouchID. I might have considered the 8, but the loss of the headphones port (something I use often) represents a loss in functionality in a very real way. In other words, for me the 8 is actually a downgrade from the 5s for my use case.

    Aside from that, I prefer the form factor of the 5s. I know that the SE would be an upgrade, but it's a case of not being a big enough upgrade to justify the price tag (plus they don't even make those anymore).

    As it stands right now, the 5s still runs the latest iOS. I don't know how much longer that will continue, but as long as it does I see no reason to upgrade, and some compelling reasons to stay where I am. I'm not sure what I'll do when the 5s gets obsoleted. I'm hoping for an updated SE that still has a headphone port, but I'm not holding my breath. It's going to be a tough decision.

    --
    Intelligent responses welcome, flames will be met with marshmallows.
    1. Re:Latest phones aren't what I want. by fluffernutter · · Score: 1

      Yeah FaceID just seems like a bad idea. Fingerprint readers work fine.

      --
      Laws are rules for the court, but merely a bottom bar to hit for life. Think beyond laws in your actions always.
    2. Re:Latest phones aren't what I want. by magzteel · · Score: 1

      I'm not sure what I'll do when the 5s gets obsoleted. I'm hoping for an updated SE that still has a headphone port, but I'm not holding my breath. It's going to be a tough decision.

      I'm on an IPhone 6, it meets my needs just fine. If it fails I will look for a replacement on Ebay.
      A 128GB 6S goes for about $250.

  25. Audio Port, Too by Feneric · · Score: 1

    There are also some who aren't upgrading due to the lack of an audio port on all the new models. The iPhone 6 and 6s models still work fine, and "upgrading" to refurbished ones is preferable for many to switching to something that'll require a handful of extra clunky connectors just to interface with one's car.

  26. Oddly antagonistic by bigdavex · · Score: 1

    Consumers fought back.

    That strikes as me as an odd way to describe declining sales. Consumers can choose not to buy something without being in a battle with the supplier. The current products don't (in the consumers' estimation) offer a good value proposition for them. They aren't fighting with Apple. They're just acting in their own self interest. That's what we expected, right?

    --
    -Dave
  27. It didn't stop, Apple is growing by Actually,+I+do+RTFA · · Score: 1

    I mean, Apple had record profits in 2018. Maybe they moved fewer units than stock analysts wanted them to. But they made more revenue than ever (+16%) and more profit than ever (+30%). Lowering the number of units sold, and raising the profit per unit, is something that's useful a good portion of the time.

    Further, their share of smartphones is growing with respect to Android. So their 30% commission isn't in danger.

    But this stupid article quotes stock market analysts and a random tourist. No evidence that Apple is messing up. Just opinions unconnected to data, and instead the analysts are just comparing to some ideal that they imagine.

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    1. Re:It didn't stop, Apple is growing by David_Hart · · Score: 1

      Further, their share of smartphones is growing with respect to Android. So their 30% commission isn't in danger.

      But this stupid article quotes stock market analysts and a random tourist. No evidence that Apple is messing up. Just opinions unconnected to data, and instead the analysts are just comparing to some ideal that they imagine.

      Where did you get this data? A quick search on Google shows a different story. In the US, Apple has a larger market share than each of the individual competitors, but not when you combine the Android manufacturers. In fact, Apple's market share slipped this last quarter by 1%. In the Global market, Apple is in third place. In regards to Phone activations in the US Apple has remained steady or declined a bit.

      The only place where Apple made gains is in China where they increased their market share by 5%, from 19.7% to 24.7%. Android dropped by 5%.

      US Phone Activations
      https://www.statista.com/stati...

      Global Market
      https://www.idc.com/getdoc.jsp...
      https://www.businessinsider.co...

      US Market
      https://www.counterpointresear...

    2. Re:It didn't stop, Apple is growing by imnotanumber · · Score: 1

      Further, their share of smartphones is growing with respect to Android. So their 30% commission isn't in danger.

      Well:

      https://www.statista.com/stati...

      Does not look like that...

    3. Re:It didn't stop, Apple is growing by Actually,+I+do+RTFA · · Score: 1

      I didn't look through all your links, but I clicked on the first one. It shows Apple going from 43% in the US (year end, 2016) to 44.3%(year ends, 2018) in the US. That's a 1.3% improvement.

      This is similar enough to the numbers I recall, which I saw when I read that Apple has moved from the 3rd largest smartphone manufacturer to 2nd (after Samsung).

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    4. Re:It didn't stop, Apple is growing by Actually,+I+do+RTFA · · Score: 1

      That site is a block of JS.

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    5. Re:It didn't stop, Apple is growing by imnotanumber · · Score: 1

      That site is a block of JS.

      For the first hits (for me) it wasn't. But now is.

      It's not very easy to find an alternative...

      Another try:

      https://netmarketshare.com/ope...

    6. Re:It didn't stop, Apple is growing by Tough+Love · · Score: 1

      Worldwide Apple is 3rd at 12%, behind Samsung and Huawei, with Xiaomi looking set to knock them down another place within the year.

      --
      When all you have is a hammer, every problem starts to look like a thumb.
    7. Re:It didn't stop, Apple is growing by Actually,+I+do+RTFA · · Score: 1

      And up from 11% the year before. 1st, 2nd,3rd doesn't matter. Mathematically, Apple can fall to 8th, and still have moved up in "percent of phones sold".

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    8. Re:It didn't stop, Apple is growing by Tough+Love · · Score: 1

      Yes, let's watch Apple fall to 8th.

      --
      When all you have is a hammer, every problem starts to look like a thumb.
    9. Re:It didn't stop, Apple is growing by Actually,+I+do+RTFA · · Score: 1

      Right, they can fall to 8th and still be moving up in the iOS vs. Android fight. They can fall to 8th and still be doing better than they are now.

      Apple fell to third because Samsung lost market share to both Apple and other Android developers. I don't know why you think that's bad for Apple. It's good! Both because it's better to have a competitive Android market fighting with themselves instead of a dominant player making monopoly profits, and because they don't really care whether you buy your non-Apple phone from Samsung or whoever, it literally doesn't effect their bottom line.

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    10. Re:It didn't stop, Apple is growing by Actually,+I+do+RTFA · · Score: 1

      I responded to another poster on my OP. It's possible that he had the same source as you, and my first hit of it was readable. I'd like to merge the responses (so I don't have to maintain two threads.) But all these numbers are actually based on the other poster's links. Highlights - worldwide Apple went from 11.X% (2017) to 12.X% (2018); US Apple went from 43%(2016) to 44.3%(2018), and Apple feel to 3rd place overall from 2nd, because both it and other Android developers split up the dramatic loss (more than 10%) in market share by Samsung. I think the third point is irrelevant (since it ignores Apple vs. All Android is moving in Apple's favor), but the other poster seems to think it's very important.

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    11. Re:It didn't stop, Apple is growing by Tough+Love · · Score: 1

      Today Apple officially reduced it's 4th quarter guidance (to avoid being sued when the ugly truth comes out in February) and fell 8% because of getting hammered in China and the rest of the developing world, notably including India. Great start on working its way down to 8th, wouldn't you say?

      --
      When all you have is a hammer, every problem starts to look like a thumb.
  28. So Much Negativity by PhYrE2k2 · · Score: 2

    So much negativity in these comments.
    * Apple made an incremental upgrade to their phones which offered little new over the prior generation which was well purchased (the X and 8/8Plus)
    * at a time when the overall phone purchasing market shrunk due to saturation
    * at a time when consumer debt is the highest and consumer spending is on a decline due to uncertainty (partly created by media)

    They saw the same decline everyone else did this year, but had a fantastic last-year. They also sold a ton of Apple Watches, iPads, iPad Pros. and iMacs.

    --

    when you see the word 'Linux', drink!
    1. Re:So Much Negativity by thegarbz · · Score: 1

      You conveniently forgot the price. For the incremental upgrade you don't expect that other distinctly nastier change they added.

      So much negativity actually reflects consumer sentiment on this on the whole and is the entire point of TFA.

  29. No jack by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1

    No buy

  30. Re:Audio Port is circa 1877! by Feneric · · Score: 1

    It's hard to argue it's the thickest item when the iPhone 6 has to have a bump for the camera but has no bump for the audio port. It's also still the only way to hook up to many audio devices that exist outside the realm of phones and computers and which tend to have much longer lifespans and so aren't prone for immediate update to proprietary Apple ports. Things like cars, audio equipment, DJ setups, etc. In Android land IIRC at least one phone manufacturer has shifted back. Sure, it'll eventually go away (and I'm not going to be one to mourn it when it's time), but it does not yet have an adequate replacement.

  31. "works just fine" by roc97007 · · Score: 1

    "He has an iPhone 7 and didn't even consider any of the X-series iPhones because it still works just fine."

    Well, that's the problem right there. Apple should do something about that.

    --
    Oliver's law of assumed responsibility: If you're seen fixing it, you will be blamed for breaking it.
  32. Re:Audio Port is circa 1877! by b0s0z0ku · · Score: 1

    How fuckin' thin does a phone have to be? The problem is not a few mm of thickness these days; it's that phone makers are making the phone too wide and tall to fit in a pocket. Thickness is just an excuse used by marketing droids to remove features.

    Not everyone has an Alexa or other latest spygizmo in their home. Some of us just want to be able to listen via a $5 pair of headphones bought at any pharmacy the world over while still being able to charge our phone.

  33. Re:Audio Port is circa 1877! by gnasher719 · · Score: 1

    How fuckin' thin does a phone have to be? The problem is not a few mm of thickness these days; it's that phone makers are making the phone too wide and tall to fit in a pocket. Thickness is just an excuse used by marketing droids to remove features.

    Another fine example of prejudiced opinion versus reality. Since the iPhone 6, iPhones have become thicker with every generation.

  34. I'll wait for the earnings reports thanks by SuperKendall · · Score: 1

    All this talk of Apple having sales issues has been nonsense in the past and it is nonsense still.

    We'll see the truth of the matter in the next earnings report.

    The XR is a really nice phone, I would have upgraded to that myself if the X I got last year had not been holding up so well...

    It also seems strange to me fact that Apple themselves have stated they are seeking longer upgrade cycles, so if that is happening it's pretty much expected.

    --
    "There is more worth loving than we have strength to love." - Brian Jay Stanley
    1. Re:I'll wait for the earnings reports thanks by Tough+Love · · Score: 1

      Ending the sales unit reporting is enough confirmation for me, you can blather on all you want, you're just an Apple waterboy.

      --
      When all you have is a hammer, every problem starts to look like a thumb.
    2. Re:I'll wait for the earnings reports thanks by Tough+Love · · Score: 1

      Hey, you are in luck, Gay Tim Cook just preannounced for next quarter, guiding down due to collapsing China sales and causing an massive run on AAPL shares.

      --
      When all you have is a hammer, every problem starts to look like a thumb.
  35. They're just pricing in the fact by melted · · Score: 1

    They're just pricing in the fact that very few people will upgrade from X and XS phones in the next 4 years. Moore's law is over on mobile now, too, and there are few bells and whistles remaining that they could conceivably add to make an upgrade worthwhile. A triple camera (as opposed to double) ain't gonna cut it. Speed is good enough as is (up to 3x the fastest Android phone in benchmarks). I think we might see iPhone go to a bi-yearly update cycle at some point as well as an even more aggressive push for subscription services and the like.

    The good news is, Watch has a lot of room for improvement. Make it thinner, add more of the traditional "phone" features, make the battery last longer, add even more biometric sensors, smarter activity tracking, etc. And there Apple doesn't have _any_ competition at all: Watch 4 is by far the best device in this product category, and nobody has the resources (and/or balls) to spend a cool billion dollars to catch up.

    1. Re:They're just pricing in the fact by Tough+Love · · Score: 1

      Watch is also something that people don't need. Hard to see where Apple goes from here, honestly.

      --
      When all you have is a hammer, every problem starts to look like a thumb.
  36. the real story by izzo+nizzo · · Score: 1

    I completely respect this reading of the events of this year, but for people who closely observe the company, this narrative is incorrect in several ways.

    The decision to focus on premium-price phones was influenced by the durability and power of the phones released over the past 10 years. There are tens of millions of iPhones 6, 6s, 7, and so on available at every price point. They work well and they can still be supported with updates. The cycle of upgrading frequently is fascinating for pundits but not actually a priority for Apple executives.

    It is possible that sales were a bit lower than expected, but it's incredibly speculative to argue that the difference was large. If production schedules were altered, that was more likely adjustment of the highest-sales scenario. Again, Apple is in no hurry, and they don't want their business to be overly seasonal or cyclic.

    This headline is almost right, except it wasn't consumers who said the prices were too high, it was just bloggers.

  37. Re:It's not price, it's uninteresting products by OneHundredAndTen · · Score: 1

    What can your explosive phone do that one that costs less than one third as much can't do just as well, or nearby?

  38. Wow by ledow · · Score: 2

    So much Apple-love on Slashdot. I wonder what you all do for a living?

    Personally, I have never, and probably will never, buy an Apple product. Because of the pricing, yes, but also because I've never found a single redeeming feature in any Apple product.

    I manage *thousands* of the damn things, phones, Macs and iPads. But I honestly wouldn't ever buy one or use one myself. My "work" iPad sits doing CCTV all day (and falls over with alarming regularity - there is obviously no application controls and one program sucking up RAM can easily cause it to fall over and "restart" the entire iPad once every 24 hours at least. It also can't manage four simultaneous H264 HD-level streams as it runs out of RAM on the fourth and kills the app).

    I finally convinced my employers to stop using them for anything when I proved that they're not compliant with UK consumer, company or data protection laws. By literally failing to get them to acknowledge a letter of complaint to their head office (Ireland), and then them refusing to do ANYTHING - even reply to questions requesting statutory complaint / data retention information. I strongly suspect that they are not GDPR compliant, as they weren't ever DPA compliant. They make noises to suggest such, but they have never given a statement to that effect, and refuse when asked.

    (And that's because iCloud is nothing more than AWS, Azure etc. cloud instances in random regions... The Register published an article on it earlier this year).

    I haven't found a single redeeming feature in any product, service, or business process that they use. Those people who have rejected my concerns have - to a person - gone back on their assertions that Apple are "so wonderful" within a matter of months, after whatever-I-predicted happened.

    Honestly... what do you use Apple for that you couldn't use anyone else for, and do so cheaper?

    1. Re:Wow by Tough+Love · · Score: 1

      So much Apple-love on Slashdot. I wonder what you all do for a living?

      Says the Apple waterboy who just posted a wall of text.

      --
      When all you have is a hammer, every problem starts to look like a thumb.
  39. Re:Not directly related to price, for me by HornWumpus · · Score: 2

    If you want the best camera, you want a Sony phone.

    They keep the best CCDs for their own use, ship the high defect counts to their competitors. Same as they've been doing for 20+ years.

    --
    John McAfee 'It was like that time I hired that Bangkok prostitute; to do my taxes, while I fucked my accountant'
  40. Phone OS loyalty has a limit... by bb_matt · · Score: 1

    The biggest 'weapon' Apple have in their arsenal, is loyalty to the OS.
    It's hard to convince users to switch to Android, even in the same household.

    The battle is on though, there's so many high quality flagship phones far cheaper than iPhones, users will eventually vote with their wallets.

    When you can get the same level of quality for almost half the price, I'm pretty sure users could stomach a move from iOS to Android.

    I picked up the Galaxy S9 for $500 with discounts and whilst I'm no big fan of touchwiz, I don't like iOS either, with it's walled garden.

  41. Takes these reports with a grain of salt by Dixie_Flatline · · Score: 1

    These predictions based on the supply chain come out every year, and they've been wrong every year. It would be too late to cut orders for the XR or XS; what Apple is probably doing is cutting supply for next year's phones from certain suppliers for various reasons. Maybe the supplier didnâ(TM)t live up to expectations or the prices were too high. Apple's supply chain works a long way in advance.

    It may be that all this is true, just don't take it for granted that it is. Like Apple or hate them, making bad predictions about them is all these analysts have done for years because it pays the bills. I won't be surprised if Apple has a mediocre year (I bought an iPhone 7 last year and had no intention of upgrading, but I got a XR as a gift; the old phones are so good now that upgrading is pointless until the phone falls apart), but I won't be surprised if they also have a really great year. Nobody knows but Apple right now.

    1. Re:Takes these reports with a grain of salt by Tough+Love · · Score: 1

      Apple is getting slaughtered in China and India and the rest of the developing world, while also declining slowly in all developed countries.

      --
      When all you have is a hammer, every problem starts to look like a thumb.
    2. Re:Takes these reports with a grain of salt by Tough+Love · · Score: 1

      Wow, did I call that or what? A mere two days before Tim Cook admits to collapsing China sales and guides down revenue by $5 billion.

      --
      When all you have is a hammer, every problem starts to look like a thumb.
    3. Re:Takes these reports with a grain of salt by Tough+Love · · Score: 1

      Given today's AAPL slaughter it would seem the analysts had it right!

      --
      When all you have is a hammer, every problem starts to look like a thumb.
  42. Over 500 bucks is too much by p51d007 · · Score: 1

    Considering 99% of consumers will never get close to maxing out the processor speed (no, I'm not talking about people on /. or tech blogs), any processor within the last few years is "fast enough". Consumers are stupid, per se. Just look at the price of a pickup truck or SUV. 60-100k? MOST smartphones, including the iPhones, have build costs of around 200-400 dollars, minus marketing & advertising, but "command" $1,000-1500 bucks? I read somewhere that the markup on iPhones is around 60% from cost. Yeah, if you can get away with it, good for business, but, I think consumers are finally saying enough is enough, considering the "what you get for your money" aspect. Most of these phones in the last few years are gimmick updates. Flashy colors, notch/no notch, bezel, no bezel, 2,3,4 or more camera lenses. And, does it REALLY improve the user experience? NOPE

  43. The cable company model by knorthern+knight · · Score: 1

    > Their sales start dropping and they simply start increasing prices to keep increasing profits.

    Ahh yes, the cable company model, as they respond to a declining subscriber base.

    --

    I'm not repeating myself
    I'm an X window user; I'm an ex-Windows user
  44. Re: Even the original Macintoshes... by cyber-vandal · · Score: 1

    Not at all like Microsoft who have very long support cycles even for consumer grade software.

  45. Re: Audio Port is circa 1877! by PhYrE2k2 · · Score: 1

    Which they give you for free?

    --

    when you see the word 'Linux', drink!
  46. Any chance Apple brings back a 4" screen? by ayesnymous · · Score: 1

    Maybe their poor sales are due to people wanting an iPhone SE-like phone with a 4" screen. Not everyone wants a phone that requires 2 hands (so you can't use it while driving) and can't fit in your pocket.

  47. Re: You asked, so... by tigersha · · Score: 1

    I have the 2013 and I commute with it every day. And had it in the Middle East, in Morocco, South Africa and the US and a few other countries. Pristine.

    The ones after 2013... problem. Apples Keyboards have gone down the dump.

    --
    The dangers of excessive individualism are nothing compared to the oppressiveness of excessive collectivism
  48. Re:If people are paying the price why will it go d by vlueboy · · Score: 1

    The problem is there are getting too many competitors in the middle class market. Where it use to be just Samsung, we have Google, Ericson, LG... All jumping into that market too.

    Back in 2014 I would cringe at Android phones imitating Apple and by pricing themselves at 450 to 600 without necessarily being high end.
    Now they're almost double the price and missing some key features while gimmicks are added... and no public backlash occurred against those market leaders in the US, sadly.

    Lots of value brands sell overseas in the third world, but there's evidence that unneeded 6"+ screens, notches and other garbage are starting to taint them too

  49. "Consumers say yes" and spend the money anyway by Daralantan · · Score: 1

    I find this article a bit odd saying how clearly the $300 shows they made a mistake. It acts as if they are hurting badly.... but haven't people said numerous times that they are still making a large profit in sales?

    Or is that just random people defending Apple at any question of how amazing the company is?

    Then again I should also remember/realize companies also do the "We only made 10 millions... we wanted 10 BILLION!" at times as well.

  50. There are better deals.. by speedlaw · · Score: 1

    You can get a deal on the website or from resellers...not at the shiny apple store at the mall. I've just spent a day or so getting Windows 10 updated for a relative. W10 sucks balls so bad that it is the best ad for Apple OS...updates don't take, the browser is slow, etc. Now, my use case is for writing, so it is open...save...print. I don't game on the Apple or write software. For a normal user, the time spent NOT effing with windows 10 is worth the Apple Tax. System 7 is still there, under two shells and layers of crap....and it's a game to find the panel you are looking for....moving the family to Apple gave me back months of my life not trying to remove junk installed by "friends" and malware from some jerkoff in Romania....

  51. Apple = Expensive Junk by stooo · · Score: 1

    Over the years, Apple went from innovative robust hardware to overpriced junk.

    --
    aaaaaaa
  52. Re:If people are paying the price why will it go d by Pieroxy · · Score: 1

    They still need some significant marketshare otherwise app developers are going to leave and never come back. That would be the end of the iOS platform.

  53. Re:If people are paying the price why will it go d by omnichad · · Score: 1

    Selling new units at the same level isn't required to hold market share. Keeping users with older hardware from jumping to Android should be their main concern. The fact that their current line is too expensive means that consumers are already thinking 2-3 years out and thinking they may not want to buy another iPhone. Still, they aren't going to but this year no matter the brand.