Samsung Phone Users Perturbed To Find They Can't Delete Facebook (bloomberg.com)

An anonymous reader quotes a report from Bloomberg: Nick Winke, a photographer in the Pacific northwest, was perusing internet forums when he came across a complaint that alarmed him: On certain Samsung Electronics Co. smartphones, users aren't allowed to delete the Facebook app. Winke bought his Samsung Galaxy S8, an Android-based device that comes with Facebook's social network already installed, when it was introduced in 2017. He has used the Facebook app to connect with old friends and to share pictures of natural landscapes and his Siamese cat -- but he didn't want to be stuck with it. He tried to remove the program from his phone, but the chatter proved true -- it was undeletable. He found only an option to "disable," and he wasn't sure what that meant.

A Facebook spokesperson said the disabled version of the app acts like it's been deleted, so it doesn't continue collecting data or sending information back to Facebook. But there's rarely communication with the consumer about the process. The Menlo Park, California-based company said whether the app is deletable or not depends on various pre-install deals Facebook has made with phone manufacturers, operating systems and mobile operators around the world over the years, including Samsung. Facebook, the world's largest social network, wouldn't disclose the financial nature of the agreements, but said they're meant to give the consumer "the best" phone experience right after opening the box.

Comments

Don't sugarcoat the turd

[Opportunist]

The best user experience is by definition that which is what the user wants to do. And this is obviously not it.

Re:Don't sugarcoat the turd

[grep -v '.*' *]

True, but like the article said, hit DISABLE not DELETE. You have a complicated device that only looks simple -- if you don't understand something, RTFM (but like where?) until you're comfortable with things.

The FB app is being kept there for your own safety and convenience -- why if it's *not* there you'd soon be ostracised by your friends. That is, the few you might have left.

Of course this is all bogus -- it takes up "zero" user space since it's kept in ROM space, and that's of course why it's unable to be deleted. (Unless you root.) But the day after the phone's released it'll need an update that lives in user data space, so all they're doing of course it forcing the app available if you would like to click on it, on purpose or by mistake. Besides, FB pays the vendor/provider so you've saved Big Bucks (entire tenths of pennies!) by having it there.

That's a really nice phone you've got there, shame if something wereN'T to happen to it.

And honest, have you talked to users? They want WHAT they want WHEN they want it HOW they want it, and when you give it to them When they want How they wanted it oops they've changed their mind and now want something else.

Re:Don't sugarcoat the turd

[Anonymous Coward]

This is wrong at multiple levels. If it transmits anything back to FB then that is a violation.
Its stealing space/memory and the OS must be crippled in some way to prevent file by file deletion. Any services running in the background?

It cant update if it does not know the revision or language settings
Lets hope the EU stomps on yet another secret agreement where no anti-compeditive documentation has been lodged. FB shareholders should be upset too. Number of disabled images needs to go into the annual report.

Re:Don't sugarcoat the turd

[JaredOfEuropa]

If a company mentions "best experience", run like hell from their products. Little known fact: "best experience" is Mandarin for "your data is ours".

I wish these companies would behave like in the old days, when manufacturing consumer electronics meant just that: creating the best device in a certain price range, and making your money by selling it to consumers on its own merits. Sure, even back then companies tried to create silos, and some built tech into their devices to protect their other interests in the content business, but that's nothing like today. The other day I read an article on LinkedIn about data being the new gold, and boy they weren't kidding: everyone seems to want to get in on the game these days. And if FB has to pay Samsung to make their data harvesting apps preinstalled and indelible, then you can be sure that Samsung do not have your best interests in mind by allowing this.

Re:Don't sugarcoat the turd

[Anonymous Coward]

The best user experience is by definition that which is what the user wants to do. And this is obviously not it.

It might be for the next user after you.

Re: Don't sugarcoat the turd

[Anonymous Coward]

It is funny that people act like you are either agreeing to share and sharing all your data with a company or nothing at all. So predictable. You can have a Facebook account and not share data with Facebook. You can have a tiny little Facebook app installed with no account. You can have multiple social media accounts and choose what you share. It does not matter if they say things like best experience. Just because somebody puts an icon on a PowerPoint does not mean you have to use their services. The ability to use a service when it makes sense for you is true freedom

Re: Don't sugarcoat the turd

[Anonymous Coward]

I very much doubt that the Facebook app is istored in ROM.

Re:Don't sugarcoat the turd

[Anonymous Coward]

Lots of people wants facebook, so it makes sense to sell phones with a facebook app preinstalled. There is no need to make removal impossible though. If I want to get rid of apps entirely, I should be able to. Facebook can be reinstated anytime by re-installing that app - nothing is lost in case I change my mind or sell the phone to a second hand user.

Re:Don't sugarcoat the turd

[Anonymous Coward]

The best user experience is by definition that which is what the user wants to do. And this is obviously not it.

"I AM THE GREAT AND POWERFUL ZUCK! YOU DO NOT DELETE ME! I DELETE YOU!"

"Don't forget that - peasant!"

Re:Don't sugarcoat the turd

[Ol Olsoc]

The best user experience is by definition that which is what the user wants to do. And this is obviously not it.

At least the phone has a headphone jack, so no problem........

I'll just show myself out...

Re: Don't sugarcoat the turd

[Anonymous Coward]

Right; he meant to say the system partition. This is the partition that Samsung controls (on Samsung devices). He was correct though that updates to the app that come from Google Play end up taking up space in the user partition. Only when Samsung issues a system update that includes a newer version of Facebook will the version in the system partition get updated.

Re: Don't sugarcoat the turd

[Zontar The Mindless]

You can have a tiny little Facebook app installed with no account.

Wanna bet?

Re:Don't sugarcoat the turd

[drinkypoo]

Of course this is all bogus -- it takes up "zero" user space since it's kept in ROM space,

No, it is NOT. It is kept in Flash. Part of the flash is desigated as belonging to the system, and it is kept there. But that flash partition is like any other partition, it can be of arbitrary size. And it has to be bigger to accommodate additional apps, and that means there's less space available in the user partition.

Re: Don't sugarcoat the turd

[Anonymous Coward]

Firefox used to allow you to delete built-in certainly. Every upgrade put them back. Gotta be able to disable for it to stick.

Re:Don't sugarcoat the turd

[Anonymous Coward]

The old days, before corporations were allowed to own senators and representatives.....

Re: Don't sugarcoat the turd

[Ol Olsoc]

It is funny that people act like you are either agreeing to share and sharing all your data with a company or nothing at all. So predictable. You can have a Facebook account and not share data with Facebook. You can have a tiny little Facebook app installed with no account.

Does Facebook have paid shills now?

Facebook is tracking you even if you don't have an account or an application.

Don't believe me? Try this:

Have a fresh shiny new account with no memberships anywhere.

Install a script blocker. One that you can look up which scripts are being blocked

Go to some popular website

Now take that list and see just who is being blocked. You'll have to look them up. Google has the decency to identify themselves, Facebook hides multiple cryptically named trackers, often several to a page. Whois is your friend. Or not.

Enjoy.

Re:Don't sugarcoat the turd

[Anonymous Coward]

Excuses, excuses. This is a very persistent and annoying phone vendor issue, not Android issue. Like Linux Android can have several login IDs and preset permissions without issue. That said, it is only a matter of time before someone pulls a Microsoft IE type lawsuit.

Re:Don't sugarcoat the turd

[Tomahawk]

The best user experience is the one that generates more revenue for the company.
Unfortunately it has very little to do with the people who are using the products.

Re:Don't sugarcoat the turd

[Anonymous Coward]

It's not just FB, my Samsung S9 came preloaded with 'undeletable' Microsoft apps too. But this is nothing new, Samsung phones have came preloaded with bloat since forever.

When buying a new phone I always spend some time deleting all Samsung, Microsoft, Facebook and carrier related apps. Yes, you can delete 'undeletable' apps through ADB, without rooting the device.

    pm uninstall -k --user 0

**Note** If you restore the device to factory settings all preloaded bloat comes back this only effects the user profile.

Re:Don't sugarcoat the turd

[Opportunist]

The friends I have don't have Facebook. That's one of the reasons they are my friends.

Re:Don't sugarcoat the turd

[Shotgun]

Huh? 1777 wasn't all that long ago.

Re:Don't sugarcoat the turd

[Opportunist]

The only reason he's still alive is that he's not worth a second of jail time.

Re:Don't sugarcoat the turd

[Z00L00K]

No, the OS isn't "enhanced", it's "bloated" with unnecessary software that may even be a security hazard.

Re: Don't sugarcoat the turd

[JackieBrown]

Yes - because anyone that has a different viewpoint must be a paid shill.

And the topic was about the Facebook app. Not sure how your script blocker and going to the web app has anything to do with the discussion.

Re:Don't sugarcoat the turd

[weeboo0104]

True. Here is my personal experience with a Samsung Galaxy S6.

I've known social media is a sewer of personal information for a long time now, but kept using Facebook because our families are separated by Continents and my closest direct family members are 4 hours away. We post things on our Facebook walls and accepted that anything posted was public knowledge, even when restricting posts to friends and family. In December, I received a mobile data alert from Verizon that we only had 1 GB left on my data plan. This wasn't surprising since I had been commuting via train to downtown Chicago and had spent about an hour each way on YouTube for a week. What WAS surprising was when I checked what had been using the data, Facebook had used more than DOUBLE the amount of data than ALL OTHER APPS COMBINED, including YouTube. I don't check Facebook during the workday either.

My next step was to attempt to uninstall Facebook from my phone, but I was only able to disable the app. Upon doing that, the app was disabled but all updates to the app had been removed as well, so if I ever enable the app again, it will be running without any updates initially.

I'll never use Facebook again on a mobile device.

Re:Don't sugarcoat the turd

[Anonymous Coward]

So the 16th century? Big business has owned politics since the days of Dutch East India Trading. There was slightly less of it in the last 1700s/early 1800s because of the lack of huge corporations, but by the turn of the 20th century pretty much every politician was bought and paid for.

Re:Don't sugarcoat the turd

[Anonymous Coward]

Is anyone selling phones with https://lineageos.org/ preinstalled?
Is there a service that will install it for those that are not techinically inclined?
Seems like they are creating a market for this.

Re: Don't sugarcoat the turd

[Anonymous Coward]

Disabled apps are not a security issue as they can't run.

On the flip side, the mfg is paid to include the app and reduces the end user cost \ includes more features per dollar spent.

Considering how most consumers are price sensitive AND use Facebook (or can disable), I'm not complaining

Re: Don't sugarcoat the turd

[Anonymous Coward]

They don't support the hardware for as long, they subsidize it by preloading apps for the carrier and their own business agreements, and they still get to charge as much as Apple?

Re:Don't sugarcoat the turd

[chrish]

The 'ROM' space is just a read-only (ish) partition in the storage, so that cuts into your on-device storage space whether you're using it or not.

Are vendor updates (hahahaha, on Android?!) going to un-Disable these bundled apps for us? Nobody knows.

Re: Don't sugarcoat the turd

[Anonymous Coward]

It's up to you to pay as much as Apple. Personally, I really hate Samsung phones almost as much as I hate Apple phones. None of them have the simplicity and convenience of Android One phones.

Re: Don't sugarcoat the turd

[Anonymous Coward]

Temporary Container Tabs + Cookie Autodelete + uBlock.

Enjoy.

Re:Don't sugarcoat the turd

[ctilsie242]

If you can get a Samsung phone with an unlockable bootloader (Sorry, no Snapdragon CPU phones, the main ones in the US are unlockable), the best thing to do is unlock the bootloader, and install a custom ROM or LineageOS. From there, you don't need to worry.

At the minimum, a rooted OS, so you can have a Linux firewall block all outgoing crap from junkware apps is a must.

Re:Don't sugarcoat the turd

[Gr8Apes]

or just buy an iPhone, and don't worry about all this FB crap.

Re:Don't sugarcoat the turd

[Anonymous Coward]

You can disable it, which makes it disappear and not update.

Re: Don't sugarcoat the turd

[Gr8Apes]

Yes - because anyone that has a different viewpoint must be a paid shill.

And the topic was about the Facebook app. Not sure how your script blocker and going to the web app has anything to do with the discussion.

Given FBs history and Zuck's anti-social tendencies (irony...) I wouldn't put anything past FB on Android. Let's just say fool me once, shame on you, fool me twice.... FB has a long long long way to go to get back in the trusted space, and it won't happen as long as any of their C-levels are still involved

TL;DR: FB is an untrustworthy entity and Android has too many holes to trust anything installed is not behaving badly.

Re:Don't sugarcoat the turd

[Anonymous Coward]

So the 16th century? Big business has owned politics since the days of Dutch East India Trading. There was slightly less of it in the last 1700s/early 1800s because of the lack of huge corporations, but by the turn of the 20th century pretty much every politician was bought and paid for.

The church and monarchy were so much better.

Re: Don't sugarcoat the turd

[Ol Olsoc]

Yes - because anyone that has a different viewpoint must be a paid shill.

And the topic was about the Facebook app. Not sure how your script blocker and going to the web app has anything to do with the discussion.

Well, if you aren't sure how that is applicable, allow me to explain.

AC very distinctly posted "You can have a Facebook account and not share data with Facebook. You can have a tiny little Facebook app installed with no account."

That is wrong - that is not even wrong, it's the opposite of right.

Which is why I very distinctly posted: "Facebook is tracking you even if you don't have an account or an application."

And since some folks do not understand or believe that, I offered, very distinctly, a way to prove that very fact. A fact it is.

Summary of all of this - the aarticle we are talking about is how Facebook is not removeable from smartphones - AC incorrectly posted that having no account is not sharing data. This is completely and demonstrably wrong, and I simply noted that you are sharing personal data with Facebook if you do not have an account with them.

Back to your statement:

Yes - because anyone that has a different viewpoint must be a paid shill.

Viewpoints, friend, do not invalidate facts. I'll believe his "Viewpoint" as a fact when he offers a way to prove that his phone never offers any data to Facebook. It takes some serious effort to block data sharing with them, and not having an account does not block them, and disabled FB app does not either.

Me? I can prove it does if you go to many pages on the internet, unless you kill the tracking scripts. No Facebook App needed, and no Facebook account needed. FB is tracking you You can prove it too, my example uses a laptop/desktop example, but the fundamentals apply. About the best you can do for a phone is disable javascript.

Re: Don't sugarcoat the turd

[Anonymous Coward]

They can't run until somebody finds a way of cracking it and making it run.

But, even under the best case scenario, it's taking up space that should be available to the user. The only things you shouldn't be allowed to remove are things that are essential to the use of the device.

This is one of the reasons why I have a Nokia smartphone as it shipped with Android One and I was easily able to uninstall FB the way that you can uninstall any other app. The only things I've found that can't be uninstalled are actual parts of Android that need to be there either for the device to function, or so that you have essential features available in case you screw something up.

One of the great things is that the phone is that much more responsive and has better battery life as a result. The only thing I wish, is that Android would have better permissions. I shouldn't get this message to allow an app to access files without knowing what files the app wants access to. There should be some indication being given about whether it just wants one particular directory or everything.

Re: Don't sugarcoat the turd

[JackieBrown]

The post was that the deleting or disabling the app made no difference. The app was the entire point of the article.

The person you accused of being a shill was not stating that Facebook doesn't track you through other means.

Re:Don't sugarcoat the turd

[fahrbot-bot]

The best user experience is by definition that which is what the user wants to do. And this is obviously not it.

Furthermore, how does being unable to delete (uninstall) the Facebook app, "give the consumer 'the best' phone experience right after opening the box."? That logic may have some weight arguing for it to be pre-installed, but none with regard to being able to uninstall it.

Re:Don't sugarcoat the turd

[Anonymous Coward]

You mean the 1970s. This was the result of the Supreme Court erroneously ruling that corporations are people and allowing them to donate to politicians. Since then, there have been a series of court rulings and laws enacted which make corporations not just people, but allow unlimited spending. At this point, I honestly don't know what you'd have to do to be convicted of bribery.

There was a period of nearly 200 years where the politicians weren't owned by donors, they were owned by voters. The voters didn't always make wise decisions, but at least votes mattered. Money that didn't translate into more votes wasn't meaningful.

These days, you have well over 90% of the population supporting some limited gun control regulation and we can't even get that.

Re: Don't sugarcoat the turd

[Anonymous Coward]

Edgy

Re:Don't sugarcoat the turd

[Anonymous Coward]

My Nokia smartphone runs Android One. It shipped with FB installed and it was really easy to remove. I just hit uninstall the way that I would with any other unwanted app.

And yeah, there's no need to prevent removal other than the fact that Samsung is probably paid to bundle it in such a way that you can't remove it. The only real solution here is to insist upon only buying Android handsets that support Android One. As a bonus, you also get regular security updates as the handset maker doesn't have to do much work to get the latest patches to work.

Re:Don't sugarcoat the turd

[fahrbot-bot]

In December, I received a mobile data alert from Verizon that we only had 1 GB left on my data plan. This wasn't surprising since I had been commuting via train to downtown Chicago and had spent about an hour each way on YouTube for a week. What WAS surprising was when I checked what had been using the data, Facebook had used more than DOUBLE the amount of data than ALL OTHER APPS COMBINED, including YouTube. I don't check Facebook during the workday either.

There's a per-app setting, (under Settings->Apps->Data Usage->[app] -- on Kit Kat anyway) to "Restrict Background Data" that disables background data on mobile networks for that app. The app can then only use mobile networks for data while running in the foreground (ie: you're actively using it) or when connected via WiFi. It's an OS setting so the app can't ignore it.

Re:Don't sugarcoat the turd

[rnturn]

"best experience" seems to be the new "rich experience".

Re:Don't sugarcoat the turd

[srmalloy]

In some sense, it's the opposite; the OS is, in fact, enhanced. Preinstalled apps are included in the system image.

"Enhancing" the OS is like Microsoft making the Windows help functionality use the IE rendering engine to display help files, making it necessary to have IE installed as part of the operating system. Nothing about Facebook is integrated into Android, such that removing Facebook breaks Android. It's a standalone app that is pre-installed on your device because Samsung made a deal with Facebook.

Re: Don't sugarcoat the turd

[zilym]

FYI, it's not just Samsung devices. My Sprint Slate 8" tablets don't let me completely delete Facebook either. I've removed it as far as possible and then disabled it, but even still, somehow sometimes Facebook manages to re-enable and update itself later on from time to time. Very irritating!

Re:Don't sugarcoat the turd

[Anonymous Coward]

Yes, not just FB or Microsoft, but Google apps too. I want to disable and uninstall "Google Play services" since it uses up SO MUCH RAM and flash, but then that causes so many problems with other apps that it's pretty much impossible to do. Why do I need Google Play anyway? I don't want to buy anything from their store.

Re:Don't sugarcoat the turd

[srmalloy]

It didn't have the force of law until July 30, 1947 but 1 U.S.C. 1 states:

In determining the meaning of any Act of Congress, unless the context indicates otherwise---
the words "person" and "whoever" include corporations, companies, associations, firms, partnerships, societies, and joint stock companies, as well as individuals.

The issues that have been thrashed out in the courts have been determining where the limits on treating corporations as individuals lie. For example, corporations don't have the franchise, and are not permitted to vote in elections. The Tillman Act of 1907 prohibited corporate contributions to national campaigns, and Chief Justice Rehnquist repeatedly criticized the Court's invention of corporate constitutional "rights", particularly in his dissent in First National Bank of Boston v. Bellotti in 1978, although he endorsed the right of corporations to spend in elections in his dissent in McConnell v. FEC in 2003.

Re:Don't sugarcoat the turd

[ConceptJunkie]

In capitalist America, you are the product and the vendor is the user.

That said, I still think we're better off.

Re: Don't sugarcoat the turd

[WaffleMonster]

Disabled apps are not a security issue as they can't run.

Yes they can run.

Re: Don't sugarcoat the turd

[Anonymous Coward]

sorry, they jumped the gun and assumed you were being paid for you efforts. Don't worry, its an honest mistake.

Re: Don't sugarcoat the turd

[Ol Olsoc]

Temporary Container Tabs + Cookie Autodelete + uBlock.

Enjoy.

That would be okay. Be sure to verify it.

Re: Don't sugarcoat the turd

[Mister Transistor]

How do you know?

For SURE?

Re:Don't sugarcoat the turd

[Anonymous Coward]

> And if FB has to pay Samsung to make their data harvesting apps preinstalled and indelible

Thank you for using the word 'indelible.'

To editors and submitters: "undeletable" isn't a word.

Re: Don't sugarcoat the turd

[Anonymous Coward]

It's not about him having a different viewpoint. He LIED several times in his post. And provided material with no citations. He's a shill.

Re: Don't sugarcoat the turd

[Anonymous Coward]

Yea they did. He said I can sign into Facebook with no account. FalseX

He stated I can choose what info I give Facebook. False.

He stated there's a tiny Facebook app that doesn't spy. False.

Try again. Me thinks you were the AC and are butthurt.

Re:Don't sugarcoat the turd

[kingbilly]

Good god, I hate that. Similar word play ahead.

The interface for Hulu on my LG tv is SHIT compared to what it used to be (or could be). I can only access More Episodes/Seasons via a button on my remote that will only function if I am already in the place it wants me to be. In other words, there aren't enough places to launch a context menu. And we need to do this a lot, because 3-4 times a week, Hulu incorrectly picks up an entire episode ahead of where we left off.

So, when I had to update my credit card 2 weeks ago, I tried accessing Hulu from Chromium web browser and it wouldn't let me login. Because, for the "best user experience", I needed to use the latest browser. What experience? The experience of entering a credit card number? I used the user agent switcher to trick the system and continue on.

Funny how they don't give a shit about the user experience on a smart tv, or Roku (it started getting bad there too), but they outright restrict me from accessing the billing area of the website if they think my experience will be less than best.

Re:Don't sugarcoat the turd

[Aighearach]

Of course this is all bogus -- it takes up "zero" user space since it's kept in ROM space, and that's of course why it's unable to be deleted. (Unless you root.)

You seem really confused about the technical details. If it can't be deleted because it in "ROM" space, you wouldn't be able to delete it at all ever, including if you root, including even if you unlocked the bootloader and installed a new OS.

The reality is that there is no ROM at all; the flash storage, which is read/write, is colloquially referred to as "ROM" when discussing certain types of binary images. But it isn't actually ROM, and therefore "because it is kept in ROM" won't actually be an answer to anything on a smart phone, ever. And if it was, how would you update?!

Re: Don't sugarcoat the turd

[Anonymous Coward]

Say what?

Re:Don't sugarcoat the turd

[Anonymous Coward]

Good answer, and the 60 +- megabytes (0.06 GB) are not an issue, really,
but in this age, you can be a hero by complaining and "exposing" a corporation, and therefore, this.

Re:Don't sugarcoat the turd

[Darinbob]

This has been this way on Android forever. The applications that are built-in cannot be removed, they can only be disabled. They will remain even after doing a full system wipe and reset, only reverted back to the version that originally shipped.

So basically the story is that some Samsung models are including Facebook into their ROM image.

Re:Don't sugarcoat the turd

[Darinbob]

Right, but it's essentially a read-only region of flash. Even if you update the built-in applications, it will revert back to the original version if you do a system wipe.

Re: Don't sugarcoat the turd

[Anonymous Coward]

How do you know that it is not running even you set it to disable? Do you completely trust the phone manufacturer not to coop with FB? There are many situations that users disable apps/software but the apps/software still run behind the back (without being transparent).

Re: Don't sugarcoat the turd

[reboot246]

No, normal.

Re:Don't sugarcoat the turd

[Anonymous Coward]

You're welcome.

It's not iOS or Windows, it's Android. You can make it behave however you want. This "story" must have been written by a complete tech noob.

Re:Don't sugarcoat the turd

[danlip]

It's an OS setting so the app can't ignore it.

Unless the phone manufacturer colludes with the app creator to circumvent the setting. But don't worry, there is clearly no collusion between Samsung and Facebook here.

Re:Don't sugarcoat the turd

[Anonymous Coward]

Actually you can delete it. The system image is kept in the same memory space as every other app. But, system apps are locked to prevent uninstall from the phone. But, that doesn't stop you removing them even with a non-rooted phone.

To remove:
1. download the Android adb command line to your laptop
2. plug in your phone and enable USB debugging
3. run the command "adb shell pm uninstall --user 0 com.facebook.katana"
4. There is no step 4.

For more information google "facebook remove adb uninstall"

Re:Don't sugarcoat the turd

[Anonymous Coward]

well thats what they tell YOU. but they don't consider YOU one of THEIR friends, so they're all on facebook, and you're not. go you.

Re: Don't sugarcoat the turd

[quenda]

I very much doubt that the Facebook app is istored in ROM.

It is stored in the READ-ONLY system partition. It is ROM. Which is why it cannot be deleted. Not just Samsung. Sony too, for example.

That is what ROM has meant for decades now. Non-volatile flash memory that is only written in a firmware upgrade.
Were you expecting hand-woven core memory, or factory mask ROM?

Re:Don't sugarcoat the turd

[quenda]

thing to do is unlock the bootloader, and install a custom ROM

Just beware you can lose features that way.
e.g. Google Pay, Camera image-processing features, ...
DRM'ed streaming apps like Netflix may refuse to install or reduce features.

There are workarounds, but they can be time consuming.

Re:Don't sugarcoat the turd

[drinkypoo]

Right, but it's essentially a read-only region of flash. Even if you update the built-in applications, it will revert back to the original version if you do a system wipe.

I have yet to meet an Android device that uses an inherently ro filesystem, they just mount ro. If you root, you can remount rw and make changes. This may have become more fiddly in recent Android versions, I haven't checked in.

Re: Don't sugarcoat the turd

[Anonymous Coward]

> That is what ROM has meant for decades now. Non-volatile memory that cannot ever be rewritten

FTFY, HAND!

Re:Don't sugarcoat the turd

[Cardcaptor_RLH85]

Google moved a not-insignificant amount of the core Android OS's services into the Google Play Services framework so that it could be updated regularly without requiring vendors to push device OS updates. Most of the resources that you see Google Play Services using on your device is attributable to some other application that is actually calling part of its API. And since most apps call some part of that massive API, it shows up as using a HUGE amount of resources.

Re:Don't sugarcoat the turd

[Waccoon]

The only read-only memory is mask ROM. The Facebook app needs to be updated occasionally, and that process isn't magic.

Re:Don't sugarcoat the turd

[Waccoon]

It's an OS setting so the app can't ignore it.

If there's one thing we should have learned from the Internet Explorer days...

Re:Don't sugarcoat the turd

[Opportunist]

This is wrong at multiple levels. If it transmits anything back to FB then that is a violation.

Here's a ... oh, you already have a phone. Call someone who cares.

You really think FB gives a shit about "violating" someone's rights?

Re:Don't sugarcoat the turd

[Opportunist]

Oh, so it's a bit like "Value edition"?

Re:Don't sugarcoat the turd

[Opportunist]

So this is where Trump got the idea from that he could make someone pay for something he neither owns nor benefits him?

Re:Don't sugarcoat the turd

[Anonymous Coward]

In some sense, it's the opposite; the OS is, in fact, enhanced. Preinstalled apps are included in the system image.

"Enhancing" the OS is like Microsoft making the Windows help functionality use the IE rendering engine to display help files, making it necessary to have IE installed as part of the operating system. Nothing about Facebook is integrated into Android, such that removing Facebook breaks Android. It's a standalone app that is pre-installed on your device because Samsung made a deal with Facebook.

Shocking! Company uses HTML renderer that's built into the OS to render help files that are built into the OS...

Re:Don't sugarcoat the turd

[Darinbob]

It's a region of flash that by default can't be easily modified without getting root access. When these apps are updated you get a new copy of the app but the original one still exists and will resurface if you do a full system reset.

Re: Don't sugarcoat the turd

[kaatochacha]

This is the 2010s version of "I don't even have a TV..."

Re: Don't sugarcoat the turd

[Anonymous Coward]

Its just that in /., one is expected to keep up at minimum some level of information.

Like fb shadow accounts, the fb app sending info from the phone and so on. Proven things. To say otherwise is to invite criticism and speculation to your own street cred.
Its like expounding the superior games library of Linux vs Windows. Its just... What?

Re:Don't sugarcoat the turd

[Anonymous Coward]

If the app was indeed installed in ROM (firmware could be considered a type of rom if you look at it right) then it couldn't be deleted it's true but that could certainly be explained better ("this application can't be removed because it's hardwired into the phone's permanent factory-installed memory but while it's disabled it cannot be started and cannot access and of the phones features").

Not even close to a new issue

[Anonymous Coward]

Not new. Not news. Not just a Samsung issue.

Re:Not even close to a new issue

[Anonymous Coward]

My feelings exactly. I have had a Galaxy S6 since it was first released (nearly 4 years ago) and have never been able to delete the Facebook app (or some other apps, for that matter). Not sure why this is somehow news now.

Re:Not even close to a new issue

[Iwastheone]

My MotoE4 came preloaded with FB App Installer, FB App Manager, Messenger, Snapchat, Amazon, Amazon Prime, Amazon Music & NativeDropboxAgent. All get disabled/Force Stopped, then after a reboot or a few months go by and they all become magically enabled again

Re:Not even close to a new issue

[doubledown00]

Yup. Same for the Blackberry Keyone I had in 2017. Very annoying.

Re:Not even close to a new issue

[Anonymous Coward]

Unlucky you. I bought a Samsung note4. Came with various crap apps. I stopped & disabled them, and uninstalled their updates in order to save space. None has been re-enabled. They stay disabled, and don't get updates.

Perhaps Moto is worse than Samsung - or do you have a carrier that tries to meddle? I bought an unlocked phone to avoid that sort of thing.

Re:Not even close to a new issue

[war4peace]

Exactly. I've been mentioning this very issue since 2015 at least. What the article failed to mention (or maybe my reading skills suck) is that on older phones which hadn't had Facebook embedded, the app will come bundled with a "security update" which installs it in such a way it can't be uninstalled. Now THAT is fucked up.
Bundled shit out-of-the-box? OK, yeah, contracts and whatnot. Forcefully bundling shit as part of a "security update"? That's LOW.

Re:Not even close to a new issue

[Anonymous Coward]

Virgin Mobile branded, friend has the same phone by Verizon that puts their own versions of bloat on.

Re:Not even close to a new issue

[Anonymous Coward]

I have an S7, and I wish my device behaved like yours. I have to repeatedly disable all of the apps that I can't uninstall:
facebook
weather
samsung pay
email
voice mail

because they keep getting re-enabled.

Re:Not even close to a new issue

[Anonymous Coward]

It is only "news" now because there is an active movement to "delete Facebook" and some normal users who don't know about Android system partition vs, user partition and don't understand how Samsung craps up the system partition with undeletable apps have now discovered that they cannot participate in the "delete Facebook" movement.

Re:Not even close to a new issue

[Anonymous Coward]

It is not impossible to delete.
it is about how hard it is to delete ....
Rooting and replacing OS image (with one without all crapware) usually helps ...
but, Sir .... I bought this XXX product to use it , not to develop code for it ... I want it, and I want it now! Uaaaaa!

Re:Not even close to a new issue

[_merlin]

I've had an S3 and S8, and neither has re-activated the apps unless I install updates for them via Galaxy Apps. Threre's apparently no way to disable apps unless no updates are installed.

Re:Not even close to a new issue

[Zocalo]

Nor is the fix, at least without rooting the phone. You can "uninstall" these bundled apps without root via ADB (ideally having removed any app data via the normal Settings, Apps option first):

pm uninstall -k --user 0 <name of package>

Although it's still only faking it; it's just removing it for the default user (user 0) so the stub remains on the phone's system partition - a full uninstall does require that you root the phone. You won't see it in the app list or be prompted for any further Store updates though, although it may get re-instated after a full OTA update.

Re:Not even close to a new issue

[Ol Olsoc]

My feelings exactly. I have had a Galaxy S6 since it was first released (nearly 4 years ago) and have never been able to delete the Facebook app (or some other apps, for that matter). Not sure why this is somehow news now.

I see. The old" I have seen this, so it must never ever be reported ever again!" The geeks version of "Stay off my Lawn!"

Sorry Anonymous Coward, it's pretty obvious from the posts in this thread that a lot of people didn't know, and it is a good thing for them to know.

In the been there, done that category, this is not unusual on PCs either. A simple program uninstall usually leaves a hellava lot of debris behind. Uninstalling say, Microsoft Office seems just like removing the icons.

Try using a product like Revo, uninstall some program, and select deep scan for leftovers. (don't restart after the program's uninstaller finishes) then look at what the deep scan shows you. Some programs just leave registry items, some pretty much everything.

I do not know if there is a comparable product for phones. There should be.

And since you already know everything, this is not for you. It is for people who might not know yet.

Re:Not even close to a new issue

[Ol Olsoc]

Unlucky you. I bought a Samsung note4. Came with various crap apps. I stopped & disabled them, and uninstalled their updates in order to save space.

How did you confirm that disabling them stopped them from sharing data?

Re:Not even close to a new issue

[Anonymous Coward]

Cmon guys, if you can't remove it then you do not own that device, now go and complain to your mama!

Re:Not even close to a new issue

[Ol Olsoc]

Exactly. I've been mentioning this very issue since 2015 at least. What the article failed to mention (or maybe my reading skills suck) is that on older phones which hadn't had Facebook embedded, the app will come bundled with a "security update" which installs it in such a way it can't be uninstalled. Now THAT is fucked up. Bundled shit out-of-the-box? OK, yeah, contracts and whatnot. Forcefully bundling shit as part of a "security update"? That's LOW.

Yup, it is pretty low.

I think any solution - if possible, would actually involve a Linux based phone, and an environment that allows the user to have access to tools like wireshark. A repository program environment.

There are some Linux smartphone alternatives, but I'm not certain I'd call any of them ready for prime time. And as much as I'd like that, talk about a niche market. Phones and tablets are not aimed at the power user, but more like the intellectually challenged.

Re: Not even close to a new issue

[Anonymous Coward]

That's some next level paranoia you have there. It's good, and i hope this paranoia extends to all platforms and not just Android.

You can be relatively sure since you can compare the AOSP version with that of your phone.

Re:Not even close to a new issue

[Anonymous Coward]

Same on my Moto E5 play. System updates re enable all of that shit.

Re:Not even close to a new issue

[Anonymous Coward]

I don't see it on a reboot, but it does come back after some upgrades. So if I install an upgrade, I check to see if I need to disable again.

Re:Not even close to a new issue

[dryeo]

My MotoE came with an FM app, a crappy file manager and an app for keeping track of the phone if lost as well as the usual Google stuff. Oh, also a phone app setup for my carrier, eg hold the one key and dial voice mail.
Perhaps it is your carrier rather then Motorola?

Re:Not even close to a new issue

[rnturn]

Indeed.

My LG had FB on it when I got it. I immediately went to delete it and found that the best I could do was disable the "Facebook App Manager". Whatever that is. (Don't bother explaining; not interested.) No idea if that is sufficient to totally block FB from tracking my phone use but it doesn't matter---every application and web page out there has the effin' FB icon on it and that's enough for FB to track how you're using the web. When that icon shows up on my dialer app, that's when I go back to a $20 dumb-as-a-post flip phone.

Re:Not even close to a new issue

[rnturn]

``How did you confirm that disabling them stopped them from sharing data?''

That's the question 'o' the day: I disabled the FB App Manager on Day 1 of getting my latest phone (~2 years ago) and today I note that the phone is reporting that there's been considerable--well... a few MB which I label as "considerable" for a supposedly disabled app--data usage by FB App Manager since mid-October. Did it get re-enabled by an update? Why should I need to keep checking crap like this?

Apparently, other than the wallpaper/ringtone settings, the data we decide to download onto them, and a few others, our phones have "no user serviceable parts inside" any more and everything is up for grabs by the phone vendors.

Re:Not even close to a new issue

[ConceptJunkie]

The sad thing is not that the Samsung phones come with preinstalled apps, but that the preinstalled apps are almost always awful. I recently upgraded a Samsung Galaxy 4 Mini, and that phone when I bought it, from AT&T, was packed to the gills with a bunch of AT&T apps that were all completely useless compared to what's available on the Google Store. But you can't delete them.

I'm sure companies like Samsung and Facebook and AT&T are counting on the fact that a large number of users will just use the apps that come with the phone and don't realize there are other options, or don't bother to check them out.

Re: Not even close to a new issue

[Ol Olsoc]

That's some next level paranoia you have there. It's good, and i hope this paranoia extends to all platforms and not just Android.

You can be relatively sure since you can compare the AOSP version with that of your phone.

By the way - not certain who you were calling next level paranoid.

At the present time, smartphones can't really be made safe.

As for the paranoia, if you are okay with Facebook weaponizing your data, what you buy, what websites you visit, what you post, your political opinions, and selling it to groups who have agendas that might harm you or help you - I don't care. I don't care if you want to tell the three letter agencies your life history,

Perhaps you might be interested in just who is trying to access your computer devices, perhaps not.

Re:Not even close to a new issue

[thegarbz]

then after a reboot or a few months go by and they all become magically enabled again

Sounds very much like your reboot included a full system update. There's no other functionality in Android that magically causes apps to not be disabled other than a new system image.

Duh, another Slashdot non-story

[Anonymous Coward]

Never had a phone where I could delete Bookface without rooting it.

Re:Duh, another Slashdot non-story

[Frederic54]

Same, this is not news, I guess in Canada it is the same as in the US, when you buy a cellphone tied to a provider (especially Bell here) there is a zillions of crapware that you cannot remove/disable except if you root. It has been like that since I know smartphone. How can this be new?!?!?!?

It is also the reason I buy unlocked phones, my latest one, Nokia 6.1, is an Android One phone and no bloatware installed.

Re: Duh, another Slashdot non-story

[Anonymous Coward]

Best phone I've had to date has been the One Plus. I don't recall if Facebook was installed or not by default but it definitely isn't now and I have never needed to root.
Previous phone was Samsung, and I grew tired of the cat and mouse game between xda devs and samsung-- one week there's a root method, the next month there's a Sammy patch that "fixes" it.
Very few /.'ers would buy a PC that doesn't allow them to gain admin privileges or install an alternate OS, yet their blindspot is the handheld computer they carry around everywhere.

Re:Duh, another Slashdot non-story

[Anonymous Coward]

When buying a new phone I always spend some time deleting all Samsung, Microsoft, Facebook and carrier related apps. Yes, you can delete 'undeletable' apps through ADB, without rooting the device.

    pm uninstall -k --user 0

Re:Duh, another Slashdot non-story

[Ol Olsoc]

Same, this is not news,

Consider that some people might not know this yet.

I've known that Facebook and some others are pretty cancerous for years. That doesn't mean that I refuse to tell anyone about it because I happen to know about it. Y'all need to understand that there are more people out there than yourselves.

It has been like that since I know smartphone. How can this be new?!?!?!?

I don't recall anyone saying this is something that was implemented yesterday. It is a story about how a person was surprised to find out about the practice. So he's telling people about it. Many people who don't already know about the practice. It's news to them.

Do you think that you should be the final arbiter of what should or should not be reported?

Are you the first person that ever knew this - if not, there probably a lot of people before you who knew it, and they never should have told you - old news, you know, wasting the intelligent people's time.

It is also the reason I buy unlocked phones, my latest one, Nokia 6.1, is an Android One phone and no bloatware installed.

How is buying an unlocked phone even news any more? Practice what you preach. Meanwhile, I just file this under a chance to give some folks some knowledge. If they already know, they can scroll on by.

Re: Duh, another Slashdot non-story

[Anonymous Coward]

Don't think it was on my last two OP, definitely not my oneplus5T.

They seem to lean away from being up the user's ass, they run Oxygen for OS and don't get in the way of letting people flash their own.

I speak with some brand loyalty but it looks like they'll be going full retard in the future - notches, removed jack, anything else the meta lets them degrade. There was some headlines about how they preempted the jack by publicly polling opinion on the decision, then went silent on the matter when the response was overwhelmingly against the move.

The 5T will be my alamo. I keep the battery within 20-80, out of harsh weather, and it should last five+ years easy. 2023 I can look into replacing it, or I bet a refurb 5T will be ~$100 by then.

There is a financial incentive to bullshitting users (see headline) so it's no surprise the reverse will drain you of time and/or money. Convenience, whatever.

Re: Duh, another Slashdot non-story

[Anonymous Coward]

It's a pretty obvious truth though. There's a friggin icon in the launcher they've been ignoring for YEARS. It's not like the secretly slowing your phone because of battery issues without any warnings at all.

Re:Duh, another Slashdot non-story

[dryeo]

My Fido pay as you go MotoE came with very little besides the default Google apps. As the FM player is useful, never tried to delete it.

One word:

[fbobraga]

http://lineageos.org/

Re:One word:

[Anonymous Coward]

Problem is you may loose functionality like WiFi calling, HD calls, etc. Carriers only support their firmwares for those features.

Same as every other pre-installed app

[Anonymous Coward]

This is the same as every other pre-installed app on every Android phone I've ever owned. You can't remove it; you can only disable it. Nothing to see here.

Re:Same as every other pre-installed app

[_merlin]

On the Galaxy S3 none of the pre-installed apps could be removed, but on the Galaxy S8 I found that Google Duo, Facebook, Instagram, Flipboard and a number of other pre-installed things actually could be removed. I don't have as many disabled apps as I used to on my S3 - just Chrome, Game Launcher, Gmail, Google Play Store, and YouTube - since my S8 allowed all the other obnoxious things to be uninstalled. I have Telstra Australia firmware, and it's the SM-G950F variant.

Been like that since at least the S4...

[Anonymous Coward]

There's a process to unistall updates to the app, and then disable. But it can't be removed completely.

Re:Been like that since at least the S4...

[Anonymous Coward]

My Galaxy S3 came with FB, Twitter & heaps of other crap pre-installed, which couldn't be removed...
At least till i rooted it & removed everything - including most Google Apps (except for Play Store & Google Maps);

I then installed LineageOS & still use that same phone to this day (& its somewhere between 7-8yrs since i got it).
But I'm realizing that i really need to replace it now - as its only 3G with 802.11g.

Re:Been like that since at least the S4...

[thegarbz]

Nope, it was like this on my original Galaxy S.

My car's radio is always set to one channel

[AynRandDuran]

Ford decided my best driver experience is to only listen to a pop radio station loaded with advertisements and very little music, so they actually didn't even put a tuning knob on. Imagine anyone getting to pre-determine how to use your *phone*, but you.

Re:My car's radio is always set to one channel

[Anonymous Coward]

Except Ford doesn't prevent you from changing to another station, it just prevents you from removing one of the presets.

#outrage.

Re:My car's radio is always set to one channel

[Anonymous Coward]

why does Ford get fuckall to say in my business in the first place

If I owe them money, fine. If I own something outright, guess who has say? Guess who can modify, mutate, and even destroy it as he pleases?

FacebookOS

[DigiShaman]

Nuff said

Dealbreaker

[rlauzon]

I've made it clear to my phone vendor that "selling" me a phone where I can't remove the spy-ware is a dealbreaker. If they won't sell me the phone I want without the built-in spy-ware, I will take my business elsewhere.

Re: Dealbreaker

[Anonymous Coward]

Very well, no phone for you. You realize that the market caters for the majority, and you're not even a real minority, do you? You aren't even a blip on their radar. You say "I'll take my business elsewhere", they will chuckle and say "sure, the desert is that way". In the end, you can adapt and accept you cannot change anything and move witj your life, or you can shut yourself out of the world.

Re: Dealbreaker

[kiehlster]

Given that the millennial "i"-gen are quitting Facebook in droves, I think the future majority populous wants a phone without Facebook on it, so this marketing trick is only going to fall on its face in about 5-10 years. I don't think we can say that the majority wants Facebook for very much longer.

Re: Dealbreaker

[Anonymous Coward]

It is a pain for some users. I have a few friends who asked me to disable it for them so I diss let it and I tell them they can turn it on if they want. I really have never used Facebook so I would not presume to tell them what they want, only how to get what they want

Re: Dealbreaker

[Voice of satan]

It is not very far from what i have done. I do not want my phone to collect data on where i go so i do my shopping and most of my biking without it. So in affect i have zero phone under such circumstances.

And as other posters said, this is no news. My Samsung phone has lots of crud i cannot uninstall. I never had a facebook account but the SSD space wasted is annoying. One gig for microsoft stuff i will never use.

I may buy a flip phone when the need to replace it arises. Or maybe stop using a mobile phone for personal uses altogether.

Re: Dealbreaker

[Anonymous Coward]

Given that the millennial "i"-gen are quitting Facebook in droves, I think the future majority populous wants a phone without Facebook on it, so this marketing trick is only going to fall on its face in about 5-10 years. I don't think we can say that the majority wants Facebook for very much longer.

Facebook didn't state that they wanted to give users what they want but that they want to give them "the best experience". Whether they want it or not. It's a drug dealer strategy.

Re: Dealbreaker

[doubledown00]

Or you can get an unlocked non-vendor supplied I-phone which doesn't do that shit (as of right now anyway).

Re: Dealbreaker

[Anonymous Coward]

Very well, no phone for you. You realize that the market caters for the majority, and you're not even a real minority, do you?

Wrong. Some phones are trivial to root - they are practically sold "open". So we special interest types / "wannabe hackers" buy such a phone and root it. Then, install an alternative android like cyanogen, and then there are no preinstalled apps at all. Usually, the next step is to install google base apps in order to get "google play", and then install exactly the wanted apps and no more. No spyware, nothing carrier-mandated, nothing manufacturer-mandated.

We can indeed take our business elsewhere, there is a market for customized phones. Being small, it means there isn't that many phones to choose from. But there are some, if control over software is important to you.

Re:Dealbreaker

[thegarbz]

Disabling an app in Android will uninstall the full app downloaded from the play store, revert to just he shell app that ships on the phone, and prevent it from executing.

If you're worried about spying then maybe you should look into the options that actually exist to control your phone rather than just expecting someone to ship something to suit your specific tastes out of the box.

Re: Dealbreaker

[Anonymous Coward]

Sailfish OS

Re: Dealbreaker

[Anonymous Coward]

Given that millennials are actually not doing that, and those who are are only "quitting Facebook" because it's the "in", cool and edgy thing to do right now, I don't think what you say is worth shit. Deleting your account means nothing, you can come back at any time, the data is not deleted at all. The "delete Facebook" movement (if it can be called a "movement" rather than "a momentarily trendy thing") knows that there is nothing at stake.They will come back because they still want to attend the cool events that are only advertised on Facebook. Get over yourself.

Re: Dealbreaker

[Anonymous Coward]

That's good. If they don't use Facebook, they don't use the app. It's been years since FB was preinstalled and only now does this guy have a boner for removing it EVEN THOUGH it's never bothered him before.

Re: Dealbreaker

[Anonymous Coward]

haraklit is still remembered today. whoever told him to "open wide and swallow" got lost in the desert of history...

Re: Dealbreaker

[slack_justyb]

Given that the millennial "i"-gen are quitting Facebook in droves, I think the future majority populous wants a phone without Facebook on it

That doesn't kill Facebook. It might kill the app, but we allow these kinds of large companies to form in the US and thus, they hedge their eventual demise on whatever it was they originally started with. I cannot count the number of folks who sat there giving the middle finger to Facebook only for them to then go to something like Instagram, which is owned by Facebook. Or some people wanting to warn others about the dangers of Facebook and privacy, only to spin up a website with ad revenue sharing with Facebook or a Facebook partner.

So we kill the Facebook app from being pre-installed means insanely little. Facebook has diversified so much, that whatever their leading product de jure is, that's what will get pre-installed. And hell at this point there's a good chance they won't need anything installed. There's content sharing programs that vendors are more than happy to join in on to gain access to the vast wealth of information that Facebook has already collected. So it's just a matter of your phone maker agreeing to share SMS/Location/whatever else out the door with Facebook, no app needed of course you can opt out. But that's even less true for websites that have the Facebook pixel on them, Facebook is so interwoven in the Internet, going somewhere that doesn't have the pixel or a pixel for one of their partners is the exceptional case.

The idealism that everyone has about "let's kill Facebook" is cute, but it is woefully ignoring how absolutely massive the magnitude of wealth of information that Facebook has, that everyone on this planet wants. You can boycott Facebook till you are blue in the face and rise repeat for all 7+ billion people on this planet and Facebook will sit there and grin at you taking absolutely little to no impact on their true source of money. It is only if and when governments begins to regulate the collection of information and put people's privacy as the default legal option as opposed to opt-out BS that Facebook will ever suffer any kind of shift in their stance.

Folks thinking deleting Facebook gets rid of the problem are in for a surprise. Deleting the app just makes you less obvious of the underlying issue and solves zero percent of the problem. So let's all be honest with ourselves here. "Facebook ain't going nowhere", everyone needs to either get used to their privacy being meaningless or get serious about making governments press the ever love hell out of this and other companies that collect data on people.

Re:Dealbreaker

[Anonymous Coward]

Yeah, good luck with that. Try not to get spittle on you from them laughing at as you walk away.

Re:Dealbreaker

[drinkypoo]

I've made it clear to my phone vendor that "selling" me a phone where I can't remove the spy-ware is a dealbreaker. If they won't sell me the phone I want without the built-in spy-ware, I will take my business elsewhere.

So if I may ask — who's your vendor, what did they sell you, and did you get it any cheaper than buying it off amazon or whatever?

Re:Dealbreaker

[rlauzon]

Right now, Verizon and that was conversation I had with them about 2 years ago when I last renewed my contract. I had to go through several of their phones before I found one that I was comfortable with (app wise). I ended up with an LG G7 that I could at least disable all the unwanted apps. But I made it clear that I was not very happy about that. I would have moved, but other pressures kept me with Verizon at that time. They will be bugging me to renew again soon and I will be looking at alternatives if they can't provide me with a "clean" phone.

But it can be (just not "easy")

[Anonymous Coward]

Enable dev mode, abd shell, and use pm uninstall. I did this with most of the crap on my note 8.

No problem

[Anonymous Coward]

My S8 is rooted and I've installed Titanium Backup on it which has solved that little issue in only a few minutes for me.
Of course I understand that not everyone can/will root their phone but it seems these days it is the only thing you can do to get rid of that junk.

Re:No problem

[Anonymous Coward]

Yeah, I don't get the sudden panic over this. It's been this way for years and rooting your phone isn't a new thing.

Not really shocking

[LubosD]

This isn't really shocking. If the app is part of the system image, then the app cannot be normally deleted, because the system image is read-only and only touched during system updates. Disabling the app DOES have the same effect as deleting it, except it doesn't free up any storage space.

Re:Not really shocking

[Anonymous Coward]

So you assume...hard to say what disabled does to an app thats a read-only part of the system image where the 3rd party has paid for this.

Android is an open platfrom so you *think* you know what its doing, but once it becomes a closed platform like on a Samsung device, assumptions must be made and cannot be validated.

Re:Not really shocking

[110010001000]

"Disabling the app DOES have the same effect as deleting it, except it doesn't free up any storage space."

You couldn't possibly know this because the source code is not available. When will people realize that closed source is the problem here?

Re:Not really shocking

[LubosD]

Well, Android is open source, along with the source that determines what the "Disable app" feature does.

Clearly, companies do all kinds of modifications to Android, but it's not too hard to check if a disabled app is really disabled.

Re:Not really shocking

[Drethon]

So you assume...hard to say what disabled does to an app thats a read-only part of the system image where the 3rd party has paid for this.

Android is an open platfrom so you *think* you know what its doing, but once it becomes a closed platform like on a Samsung device, assumptions must be made and cannot be validated.

And what do you assume deleting an app where the 3rd party has paid for the app to be on the phone? Just because you *think* the app was deleted, can you truly say it was? If you want to be paranoid (or realistic, all a matter of perspective), it can be applied evenly, not just to a few cases.

Re:Not really shocking

[AHuxley]

At what point did the user just rent the OS, social media apps and hardware?
What do they actually own when they buy a smartphone?

Re:Not really shocking

[110010001000]

Android is not really open source. Unless you can compile an image completely from source code and use that on your computer it isn't open. It is "fake" open. The closed binary blobs could be doing literally anything.

Re: Not really shocking

[TuballoyThunder]

While Android is open source, there is no guarantee that Samsung has not modified the source to change the behavior on their phones. Bottom line, either you trust them or you don't.

Re:Not really shocking

[LubosD]

You are right (sadly), they could, but that's a general issue not related to the preinstalled FB app.

Re:Not really shocking

[thegarbz]

except it doesn't free up any storage space

That isn't entirely true. The Facebook app installed on the phone is nothing more than a small shell that triggers the actual Facebook app to download from the Playstore when you first log into your google account.

Disabling the app literally frees up hundreds of MB from your phone for this reason.

Re: Not really shocking

[LubosD]

Disabled apps cannot receive intents, so you can check this.

If you don't trust Samsung's modified Android, then the Facebook app isn't the major concern. And this article is just about the FB app.

Re:Not really shocking

[Calydor]

Can you prove that pressing the DISABLE button doesn't just make the overview say 'DISABLED' and the button say 'ENABLE' with no other changes made?

Re:Not really shocking

[fustakrakich]

What do they actually own when they buy a smartphone?

The box

Re:Not really shocking

[Calydor]

If I was renting the app I could return it to the store, but I can't even do THAT.

Re:Not really shocking

[LubosD]

Yes, disabled apps cannot receive intents, for instance. And if you don't trust the whole OS, then the Facebook app isn't really the major issue...

Re:Not really shocking

[houghi]

So it does have the same effect, except it hasn't. Did I get that right?

Just give me all your passwords and tell me not to use them. That has the same effect as me not having them, right?

Re:Not really shocking

[Anonymous Coward]

Also it still calls home. Watch your network traffic on wireshark, and you'll see.

Re:Not really shocking

[Tomahawk]

The source code for Android is available as most of it is open source. So you can download a copy and prove it for yourself.

https://source.android.com/

Re:Not really shocking

[_merlin]

Only if you can prove that the source compiles to the image on your phone. Do any of the handset vendors have reproducible builds so you can verify that what you compile produces the same firmware image they signed? If not, and if there's any closed source "secret source", you can't completely trust it.

Re: Not really shocking

[Anonymous Coward]

Disabling the app is an option - though buried deeper within the options, however a new firmware update will at times reactivate the Facebook app, so the novice user must remember to check that has not been activated again.
Better yet, do what I did, drop Samsung and get a Google Pixel.

Re:Not really shocking

[Anonymous Coward]

Being able to delete the facebook app would not free any user accessible storage. In most android phones, my experience largely being samsung phones. You might have say 64gb of internal flash. This is prepartitioned at the factory. There might be a 6GB "read only" /system partition in which the OS and any pre installed apps live. Some of this /system partition space is empty, to allow space for future updates to the /system read only image. Preinstalled apps also live in this /system partition. It is the one partition on the phone that is not wiped during an "factory reset"

Disabling pre installed apps in android is effectively "uninstalling " uninstalling them. If you really wanted to permanently remove it you could root the phone, remount /system as read/write then delete the individual APK files. However this will not result in you seeing additional space in your user accessable/writeable storage space. It would just free space in /system which in normal operation is not writable by the user. If/when samsung pushes down an update that reimages the /system partition facebook or whatever preinstalled app will be right back again.

You can "repartition" the phone shrinking down the space that the /system partition consumes. Again my experience is primarily with Samsung phones. You can obtain a modified PIT file. (Partition Information Table) Flash this to the phone via the ODIN desktop software and modify the partition layouts. This is a very low level operation and has a high chance of bricking your phone if you don't know what you are doing. Repartitioning your phone would result in more user accessible storage in an instance where you are using something like LineageOS of which the /system image is only a few hundred megs compared to the stock software where the /system image is a few gigs from all the preinstalled crap and Samsung customizations to the OS.

Re:Not really shocking

[Anonymous Coward]

In phones with a bootloader that can be unlocked, yes you can be sure. You can wipe the entire storage of the phone and install your own operating system without any Google components if you want.

Re:Not really shocking

[TheDarkMaster]

The concept of "system application" on Android is way too much abused. Every simple piece of shit programmed by Samsung is treated as if it were "an indispensable part of the operating system" and therefore irremovable.

Re: Not really shocking

[AmiMoJo]

Is this Samsung's fault though? They don't even bundle much of their own stuff any more, it's all an optional install from their app store (which is bundled).

Facebook sounds more like the kind of thing a third party would force on, i.e. the carrier that they bought the phone from. That's why it's usually best to buy from a third party - you get a vanilla, unmolested phone and the same contract you would have got anyway. Assuming you don't just buy the phone outright.

Re:Not really shocking

[Anonymous Coward]

If its part of the system image then deletion will not 'free up space' except in the root-only-accessible partition.

Re:Not really shocking

[Anonymous Coward]

There's really nothing new about this. I had a Sony Ericsson android phone where the supplied version of Facebook couldn't be uninstalled. I have just assumed that if facebook came pre-installed on a phone, you were stuck with it (other than rooting the phone)

Re:Not really shocking

[Anonymous Coward]

They own the phone and a license for the software. The license has terms of use.

Re: Not really shocking

[dohzer]

Reactivating disabled apps is why I ditched Samsung phones for good.
I moved from a Google Nexus 4 to Samsung S6, and then back to a Google Pixel XL.
Never again Samsung!

Re:Not really shocking

[AHuxley]

Time for a new smartphone OS that lets the user have more control over all apps then AC.

Re:Not really shocking

[drinkypoo]

Do any of the handset vendors have reproducible builds so you can verify that what you compile produces the same firmware image they signed?

No, but you could build AOSP and install it.

If not, and if there's any closed source "secret source", you can't completely trust it.

So far there's always binary blobs in the drivers, and you're never going to get the source for modern communications hardware's firmware as that would permit you to override radio power levels and such. Therefore you can't ultimately trust any smartphone, nor pretty much any computer made in the last couple of decades.

yup, i am a galaxy 9+

[FudRucker]

and i can not delete the Facebook and Facebook App Manager, i can only disable them, i would feel a lot better about my phone if i could completely remove all of that facebook kludge completely, if Samsung does not fix this so i can remove them i wont be buying another Samsung phone when it comes time to getting a new phone, i would research android phones and find one that is simply pure android without any third party apps welded in that can not be removed,

Re:yup, i am a galaxy 9+

[thegarbz]

i would feel a lot better about my phone if i could completely remove all of that facebook kludge completely

Why would that make you feel better? The default install is nothing but a shell and doesn't do anything without an update from the play store. By disabling something in Android it is unable to perform any function including updating itself. Why would you feel differently about it not existing vs being so incredibly irrelevant?

if Samsung does not fix this so i can remove them i wont be buying another Samsung phone

Thanks for your virtue signalling. Facebook has been an irremovable app since the original Galaxy S came to the market. If you actually cared about this you wouldn't have a Samsung phone now 10 years later.

Re: yup, i am a galaxy 9+

[Anonymous Coward]

It's not Samsung directly, it's your cell company. If you buy an unlocked device directly from Samsung you can remove it along with other bloatware, and you won't have all the custom verizon/att/etc. crap either.
And it's not just Samsung devices, it happens with all the vendors.
And as the article says, you can disable the app which removes any updates and prevents it from running entirely.

Re:yup, i am a galaxy 9+

[Tomahawk]

Likely the only phone you'll be able to buy, then, is the Google Pixel. The vast majority of manufacturers install Facebook and other apps as system apps.

But you can always disable them, and then they can't do anything except use up space on your system partition. And since you can't actually use the system partition yourself, this is actually fine. Disabling an app on Android is as good as deleting it.

But, yeah, I wish I could delete it too (without having to root my phone).

Re:yup, i am a galaxy 9+

[chrish]

LG has at least one model (G7 One) that's shipped with "Android One"... stock Android without any third-party garbage.

Still has that idiotic notch though.

Re:yup, i am a galaxy 9+

[WaffleMonster]

Why would that make you feel better? The default install is nothing but a shell and doesn't do anything without an update from the play store. By disabling something in Android it is unable to perform any function including updating itself. Why would you feel differently about it not existing vs being so incredibly irrelevant?

This common wisdom happens to be wrong. Disabled apps can in fact continue to execute.

You can disable an app, reboot and it would still be started once whatever it has hooked generates an event / call.

Er?

[cascadingstylesheet]

They've just now discovered preinstalled non-removable apps??

Yes, they suck. They are also why your phone is a little cheaper (at least theoretically) than it otherwise would be.

Re:Er?

[Anonymous Coward]

This seems weird from Samsung. Samsung has a payment app that doesn't work on Samsung devices. (Competitor options work fine...)

Re:Er?

[Daralantan]

That's what I was going to comment. I'm pretty sure facebook has been like this on several android phones for years. Along with a lot of other garbage.

Re: Er?

[Anonymous Coward]

This is also why the phone manufacturer is a little richer than they would be otherwise.

FTFY. You're welcome.

Re:Er?

[kalpol]

TONS of other garbage, and guess what, there aren't any other options from the major US carriers. You either get a phone loaded with unremovable garbage or you get an international version which works considerably better but has no warranty service.

Re:Er?

[Tomahawk]

I seem to remember it came preinstalled on my Sony Xperia X10, and that came out in 2010. And I doubt that was the first phone it, or anything else, was pre-installed on, and undeleteable from.

So, yeah, nothing new here.

Re:Er?

[93 Escort Wagon]

They've just now discovered preinstalled non-removable apps??

My first smartphone was some LG device running Froyo - I remember there were a number of non-essential yet non-removable apps on that thing. That was, what, 8-9 years ago?

Re:Er?

[coofercat]

Repeat after me: Samsung can't do software.

I (mostly) can't fault their build quality and specs on their hardware, but recently design decisions are dubious (eg. bixby button) and their software is, and has always been utterly terrible.

Citation: Bixby, Samsung Push Service, any of their 'hub' apps, actually, any apps pre-installed that weren't part of the base android system.

Re:Er?

[Anonymous Coward]

my though exaclty, this is just now noticed? oh right, facebooks finally becoming a populat punching bag (and rightly so)

Though i also suspect Samsung is in on the data collection.

I had an S5 Mini which would turn on its Location tracking in the night, perhaps 2 times a month.

Because of that, i will not be buying their product(s) again unless i have exhausted my chocies.

Re:Er?

[Megane]

One word: Tizen (which also derives much suck from the Enlightenment Foundation Libraries below it: "let's make an object-oriented UI library and pass everything around as void* !")

Re:Er?

[Anonymous Coward]

Yes, they suck. They are also why your phone is a little cheaper (at least theoretically) than it otherwise would be.

If I bought a phone which contained an uninstallable FB app, then I'd return it.

So, not my phone.

Re:Er?

[Anonymous Coward]

> They are also why your phone is a little cheaper (at least theoretically) than it otherwise would be

This is wrong. Your phone is not cheaper. It is priced to maximize profit. Any pre-installed apps they get paid for makes more money for the manufacturer and it does not get passed along to the consumer.

Re:Er?

[Anonymous Coward]

Well said!

It's been like that for years and the reason there are rooted versions of Android that don't have Crap-Apps(tm) installed on the base O/S. If people don't like these preinstalled apps like FB and such like, they're welcome to buy another type of phone, oh yes you only have two serious choices in the smartphone market these days!

Re:Er?

[iampiti]

Err, I'm pretty sure international versions also have un removable non-essential apps. My old S4 used to have Facebook and a few others. Carrier-branded phones usually do have additional non-removable crap though

Re:Er?

[Waccoon]

Market forces determine prices. You can argue that software integration makes the hardware more powerful, but the price isn't affected.

Reminds me of all the crappy $500 laptops that flooded the market 10 years ago. The ones that would overheat and die in 10 minutes due to piss poor build quality, and were still cheaper than many of today's phones. They weren't priced that way due to the heaping piles of crapware... that's just what the average Wal-Mart patron was willing to pay.

Does anybody sell a phone with no OS on it?

[Anonymous Coward]

I suspect there is a market for a barebones phone with no preinstalled OS on it?

Re:Does anybody sell a phone with no OS on it?

[oic0]

Phones require an os prebaked for their hardware :(

Re:Does anybody sell a phone with no OS on it?

[kalpol]

The unlocked international versions usually have a far more basic image on them, and I have much preferred them over the crufty and nonconfigurable versions pushed by the local US carriers. The downside is that it is considerably harder to get warranty service.

Gotta love the doublespeak

[think_nix]

Facebook spokesperson said the disabled version of the app acts like it's been deleted

Its either deleted or its not, disablement is not 'acting' like its deleted.

It doesn't continue collecting data or sending information back to Facebook. But there's rarely communication with the consumer about the process.

FFS, so basically Facebook and Samsung are screwing over the end user and not notifying them of anything. It's great how the service owner of said service along with the manufacturer decide that said pre-installed service is best for the end user out of the box. The only way to be 100% sure besides running the likes of strace or packet capture on the phone would be to root it and uninstall anyway. Seriously what is wrong with these people?

Re:Gotta love the doublespeak

[Anonymous Coward]

It's people like that asshat who deserves to get killed. Then if anyone tries to bring charges you could always say "he's not dead, he's just temporarily disabled and acting like he's dead. We have his word that it's the same".

Re:Gotta love the doublespeak

[thegarbz]

disablement is not 'acting' like its deleted.

Except it is in every way. Prevents the app from running, prevents it from displaying, and prevents any other app from accessing it, the app being part of a read only image and therefore unable to be physically deleted. In addition the app shipped with a phone is a non-functioning shell taking up a few MB. It is not Facebook, and Facebook itself downloads from the Play store the first time you start the phone. Using the disabling function deletes this download and prevents it from re-occuring.

So yes, it acts in every way like its deleted.

Re:Gotta love the doublespeak

[Anonymous Coward]

Your post contradicts itself. "It acts like its deleted except its unable to be deleted"

It's either deleted or it's not.

Re:Gotta love the doublespeak

[Tomahawk]

When disabled the OS prevents it from doing anything. It's locked away unable and unallowed to run. It can't do anything, so it's as good as deleted. It's basically just data using up space on your system partition, but that's not an issue as you can't write to the system partition anyway.

So 'acts as if it's deleted' is a reasonably good description.

Re: Gotta love the doublespeak

[Anonymous Coward]

Here's a fun idea, instead of only allowing a user to make an app act like it's deleted, why not allow them to actually delete the fucking thing? If you own the device, you deserve that much. It's telling that even an unlocked phone won't or can't do what the owner wants it to do.

Re:Gotta love the doublespeak

[Anonymous Coward]

I think too many people remember Microsoft lies regarding "uninstalling" Internet Explorer. People might also remember the lies Facebook tell about how much they track people or the lies their phone vendor told about getting OS updates. Carriers lie about how much they track people. The government lies about how much information they receive from the carriers. I'm surprised anyone believes anything Facebook or their phone vendor says.

At this point I assume all businesses lie almost all the time about almost everything involved with convincing me to give them money.

Re:Gotta love the doublespeak

[think_nix]

I disagree either 1 or 0

Its either deleted or not deleted. Whats next ? Shadow delete ? Pseudo delete ?

Also reminds me of the marketing speak "speeds up to ...."

- Cheers

Re:Gotta love the doublespeak

[Anonymous Coward]

And yet, you're still a worse person than him.

Re: Gotta love the doublespeak

[srmalloy]

The problem with that is that allowing all of the preinstalled bloatware to be freely deleted opens the window for the carriers to receive the phones from the manufacturer, blow away the bloatware, and advertise that their phones have no pre-installed software except for [carrier's list of apps], and we'd see carriers competing with how much of the bloatware they remove for you -- which defeats the purpose of the companies cutting a deal with the manufacturer to preinstall their apps. There would need to be some mechanism to ensure that only the person registered to teh devlice would be able to remove the programs.

Re:Gotta love the doublespeak

[WaffleMonster]

When disabled the OS prevents it from doing anything. It's locked away unable and unallowed to run. It can't do anything, so it's as good as deleted. It's basically just data using up space on your system partition, but that's not an issue as you can't write to the system partition anyway.

This is not true. It can't be loaded normally by user but other things/events can still trigger it.

Re:Gotta love the doublespeak

[Anonymous Coward]

Except that there is still some unnecessary code there from Fakebook, and there is no way for the average person to tell if it still sends data to Fakebook or not. I would bet it does whether the app is "disabled" or not!

I have always believed that phones and tablets should have only the bare minimum installed when purchased, and let the user decide what they want. Oh, and the user should be able to decide what data an app can have access to, and whether an app can access the internet or phone network!

Re:Gotta love the doublespeak

[think_nix]

Im not a mobile developer but this indicates the app has hooks into other events, hence my original mention to strace or packet capture. Proving this would validate collusion.

I dont have a Samsung nor do I have a fb account. Dont really want to do either to validate as well.

 

Re:Gotta love the doublespeak

[Anonymous Coward]

disablement is not 'acting' like its deleted.

Except it is in every way

If the state of 'being disabled' acts like the state of 'being deleted' in "every way", then why don't they call it "deleting the application" instead of "disabling the application"?

Using a different phrase on purpose strongly suggests that there is some difference that would mean that it is not acting like it in "every way". Is it unreasonable to be suspicious when people clamber to quantify that difference and how it somehow doesn't matter?

That's important for me, because I want a Facebook application to "actually be deleted" in terms of reality, not in terms of how the result holds up in court.

Re:Gotta love the doublespeak

[Anonymous Coward]

Facebook itself downloads from the Play store the first time you start the phone.

That's not true. It doesn't download unless and until you put a Google account on the phone.

Re: Gotta love the doublespeak

[Anonymous Coward]

You know, most file systems don't actually delete files when you delete them either. The sectors are just marked as unused and that's why you can still recover "deleted" information.
This is kind of the same. If you don't trust disable functionality in android, how do you trust delete functionality? Maybe it is just disable and hide from the list?

Re:Gotta love the doublespeak

[Waccoon]

And you actually believe it works?

Even some Linux distros have been caught "accidentally" re-enabling things the end user disabled. It's a thing.

Re:Gotta love the doublespeak

[Anonymous Coward]

Ignore him. He spends his time here arguring with everybody over everything because hes a selftitled expert on everything.

Re:Gotta love the doublespeak

[Anonymous Coward]

Deleted apps dont get re-enabled "intermittently" during reboots/updates.

Re:Gotta love the doublespeak

[thegarbz]

And you actually believe it works?

Nope, I verify that it does. Belief is for religious nuts.

Re:Gotta love the doublespeak

[Tomahawk]

It won't respond to Intents either. If something is, then something else is installed to respond to them.

Re:Gotta love the doublespeak

[strikethree]

So yes, it acts in every way like its deleted.

Until the next update. So no, it does not act in every way like it is deleted. There are dozens of people in this thread alone who are saying that they disabled it and it keeps coming back with a vengeance.

Try again? :)

Are you listening, Pandora?

[Anonymous Coward]

Facebook, the world's largest social network, wouldn't disclose the financial nature of the agreements, but said they're meant to give the consumer "the best" phone experience right after opening the box.

Well, Pandora?

Difference between Google and Samsung.

[140Mandak262Jamuna]

You are not a user, you are the product for both Google and Samsung.

But, in the case of Samsung, you need to pay for the privilege of being their product.

While we are looking at Samsung ...

[140Mandak262Jamuna]

... as the tech aware people are obsessing about the undeletability of Facebook from Samsung, billions of people are allowing Alexa to listen in, allowing "partners" of Amazon to know exactly how much they can charge you.

Re:While we are looking at Samsung ...

[Anonymous Coward]

Would letting Alexa hear you moan about not being able to pay the bills, not being able to make the rent payment that month, and about how hungry you are because you haven't been able to buy food for a week... get you lower prices on stuff at Amazon?

Re:While we are looking at Samsung ...

[Anonymous Coward]

billions?

This is not new

[Anonymous Coward]

Samsung/Facebook have been doing this for a while now. I'm not sure how this is news. Over the last 5 years, I've had a Galaxy S5 Active and S7 Edge. Both came with Facebook preinstalled with the intention of users not being able to remove them. The S5 was released almost 5 years ago. This practice is not new. The S7 I had was crazy with preinstalled apps, either put there by Samsung or AT&T (Uber was another major app that could not be removed). This was a major driving force for me choosing to take my cell phone business away from Samsung and AT&T.

I wonder how that plays with Not-Facebook-Members

[Sique]

As I am not on Facebook (never was), any enabled Facebook-App means that the phone is sending my data to a company I don't have a contract with. And I don't see that there is any agreement between the company and me signed or otherwise agreed upon, that they are entitled to my data, and they didn't present me with any list of things they are intending to do with my data.

It's not just Samsung, it's the carrier image

[kalpol]

Locked AT&T phones do the same thing - we had an LG from AT&T where Facebook can't be removed, just disabled (and I think it may re-enable on reboot but need to doublecheck that).

A facebook spokesperson says...

[Anonymous Coward]

But can we believe a facebook spokesperson, these days? I personally wouldn't.

Re: A facebook spokesperson says...

[Anonymous Coward]

Fuck Facebook. But they are correct, if you disable the app it's effectively uninstalled but the files remain. And this is because it's a Carrier image, you CAN uninstall from an unlocked device you buy direct from Samsung. Also, not just Samsung. Also, not just Facebook. Also, not news, it's a common complaint which has been going on for years.

bloated bias article

[Anonymous Coward]

stop biasing ...

FACEBOOK IS A VIRUS

[Anonymous Coward]

Facebook is a virus and should be treated like that by the icann and the FBI.
SEIZE the domain and alert everyone this company is a disease and a computer virus.
DELETE FACEBOOK.COM from the internet completely !!!

Dupe

[thegarbz]

I don't know why we are duping these articles but I'm sure this was posted in 2009 not 2019.

Like seriously: User suddenly discovers something that has been the same and unchanged for 10 years. Instant outrage!.

Just disable the app like a normal person and like every Android system has allowed since like version 5. The default "Facebook" install on these phones is a shell app that takes up almost no space. You actually need to download some +100MB from the Playstore for it to even work in the first place.

Disabling is not the same as uninstalling

[Blame The Network]

After disabling Facebook I had to battle my S8+ to stop receiving notifications. A family member I wanted to keep in touch with was and is crazy. My work phone was popping up foul-mouthed rants on the screen - not ideal!

As well as disabling the app I had to dive into the menu system to disable the notifications. It wasn't obvious where to do this.

The app cannot have really been disabled if it was able to send notifications. There was obviously some component still active.

When I need to, I just access Facebook via the phone's web browser.

Re:Disabling is not the same as uninstalling

[Tomahawk]

That's interesting... there must be another app installed, in that case. Facebook Messenger, maybe?

Long-term practice with Samsung

[Anonymous Coward]

I have (yes, still...) a Samsung Galaxy S3. With that older model, there used to be an undeletable app for "Zynga" games. Originally, if you disabled it, it would be re-enabled on reboot. There was a forced system update about 5 years ago that finally removed the Zynga app.

The one that still REALLY bugs me is the "T-Mobile My Account" app, which also can only be disabled, and which also gets re-enabled after reboots. This particular app is a horrible battery hog. With "T-Mobile My Account" disabled, my S3 will typically go 2+ days on standby with a single charge. If, however, I forget to disable that app, I'm down to barely being able to get through 8 hours on standby.

I'm done with both Samsung and Android. Uncontrollable apps, the whole app permissions debacle, letting the carrier decide if and when to provide system updates, app store full of spyware and adware, etc.

My next cell phone will either be one where I can freely install any Linux distro I want and be in full control of the apps that *I* want (hey...I can dream, right?), or it will be a simple flip phone.

Not just Samsung

[pezezin]

I recently bought an Asus Zenfone 5Q. Today I tried to uninstall Facebook, and I found out the best you can do is uninstall all the updates and disable the app, but it's impossible to fully remove it.

ORLY

[Anonymous Coward]

The best phone experience Samsung would provide is to don't have this shitty app Facebook preinstalled on their phones. Stupid people.

Herpes?

[Anonymous Coward]

Maybe they can rename the Facebook App to 'Herpes'? ... apparently you can't remove that either.

It's the same with ASUS ZenFones

[Anonymous Coward]

On a brand new ZenFone Max Pro M1, Facebook, Messenger and Instagram apps are not uninstallable, user can just disable it.

article summarized

[astrofurter]

Article summarized:

Faceboot sez, "fuck all you all, you lose, you have no rights, all your bases are belong to us, hahahahahahaha! Fuck you, proles, that's why!"

Samsung heartily concurs.

Same thing on LG G6

[Predathar]

I just checked on my phone, a LG G6 and Facebook came preinstalled... no option to delete, just DISABLE...

Re:Same thing on LG G6

[Anonymous Coward]

iOS is safer from this malware (preinstallations are not allowed)

Re:Same thing on LG G6

[AmiMoJo]

Can I ask where you bought it from? I'm trying to determine if this is an LG problem or if the network operator sold you a custom version of the phone with their own crapware pre-installed.

Re:Same thing on LG G6

[Predathar]

From Koodo, in Montreal, Quebec, Canada.

Re:Same thing on LG G6

[kalpol]

On mine it was AT&T's version with resident evil^H^H^H^H Facebook, I had the international version of the phone and it was not present.

Re:Same thing on LG G6

[Anonymous Coward]

I have an LG G5 (dont buy it, sucks) that does not have Facebook installed...

Re:Same thing on LG G6

[AmiMoJo]

Yeah, so from you and kalpol's response it seems that it's carrier installed crapware. If you buy the phone sans-contract or whatever you get the stock LG firmware that doesn't have Facebook.

Re:Same thing on LG G6

[thegarbz]

I'll bet you a dollar that if you disable the app it'll free up hundreds of MB from your phone. Due to the frequency of Facebook app updates phone vendors don't typically ship a functional app with their OS image, instead just a shell app which causes the actual app to be downloaded from the Play Store when the Google account is first added.
Disabling not only prevents an app from loading and hides it from the menu, but it also deletes any downloaded updates and prevents it from interacting with the Play Store.

I use Facebook, but on my phone I use Facebook Lite, along with disabling the main Facebook app this literally freed up around 230MB.

Translation of Facebook comment

[Registered Coward v2]

Facebook, the world's largest social network, wouldn't disclose the financial nature of the agreements, but said they're meant to give the Facebook "the best" data mining opportunity right after opening the box.

Shadow Profiles make this moot

[OzPeter]

Given that FB has been accused of making shadow profiles of people not on FB, does deleting the App from a phone really achieve anything?

No .. I am not saying the outrage is not justified, just that is misdirected.

http://theconversation.com/sha...

Re:Shadow Profiles make this moot

[Anonymous Coward]

does deleting the App from a phone really achieve anything?

Yes: 1, it frees up storage space for which the user already paid for. 2, it cannot be silently enabled by an update if it no longer exists. 3, I don't want to see facebook icon on my system

Re:Shadow Profiles make this moot

[Anonymous Coward]

I have never had a profile on facebook. A company I used to work for 8 years ago, one person I used to work with had been promoted to manager last year. Christmas last month, the company had a Christmas party. This friend sent me a facebook link to the pictures he posted of the Christmas party to his page. Facebook had identified the people in the picture, Including me.

So, yea, there is probably a shadow profile of me on facebook even though I have tried my best to keep my data off of there.

Re:Shadow Profiles make this moot

[strikethree]

Given that FB has been accused of making shadow profiles of people not on FB, does deleting the App from a phone really achieve anything?

Yes. It does do something. Deleting it would prevent it from coming back to life like some sort of undead monster. Once it is back to life, it can continue sending data to Facebook.

It doesn't matter whether or not you have a shadow profile or a real profile, the "app" is fucking dangerous to you and should be deleted entirely so it can not keep reviving itself and sending more data.

Score one for closed source

[doubledown00]

Sucks but true: This doesn't occur on I-phones. The carriers are taking advantage of the open nature of Android to push apps on to the phone. And because Android is open to the world, they know exactly how to do it. They can't do that with I-phones because it's not open and Apple won't tell them / allow them to do it (at least for now. That might change if revenue keeps dropping).

Re:Score one for closed source

[Enigma2175]

Yeah, on my iPhone I just get constant reminders to give my credit card numbers to ApplePay or buy iCloud storage so it's not third parties trying get my money, it's the phone manufacturer doing it directly. Along with the bullshit "unsupported device" messages that come up now when trying to use a headphone adapter (which wouldn't even be needed if they had kept the jack), their moneygrubbing behavior has caused me to resolve never to give Apple another cent. I won't need another phone for a couple of years but I guess I should start looking now, it sounds like it's going to be a PITA to find one that's not constantly marketing to me and spying on me.

Re:Score one for closed source

[Voice of satan]

Why not a non smartphone. ? :)

Re:Score one for closed source

[Anonymous Coward]

Bullshit. I've never got a SINGLE "reminder" to give credit card numbers to Apple Pay, nor to buy iCloud storage.

Re:Score one for closed source

[doubledown00]

Pick your poison. But if you're holding out for a cell phone that is not spying on you.......well you're just ice skating up hill there. Increasingly the only solution is to leave your phone at home, and insist everyone with you do the same.

Not just Samsung!

[Tomahawk]

I'm sure this is the case for more phone manufacturers. It's certainly the case for Sony also, at the very least.

I found on my old S8+ that I couldn't delete the Facebook app, so I just disabled it. Along with some other apps.
I found the same on my Sony. So again I just disabled it, along with some other apps.

It's frustrating, though, that these apps are bundled as 'system apps' and thus cannot be uninstalled. I probably wouldn't mind as much if it came preinstalled but I could then remove it. But preventing it's removal is a Bad Thing (R), and personally I'd prefer none of the major (or non-major) phone manufacturers to do this.

But it's worth money to them, so of course they will. So, I suppose, at least we can disable them.

My personal preference is to use the browser for stuff like this. Facebook, Imgur, Reddit, Amazon, eBay, etc -- I prefer to just use their site when I want to do something. Yes, this means that they are tracking me online (even despite GDPR), but at least it's only my browsing habits they are getting and not also various data from my phone, which we all know the facebook apps, among others, captures and sends back to Mark...

Is this true?

[ceesco]

I've had my Galaxy S8 from Verizon for about six months now (work phone), and no Facebook app at all. There was a "Facebook Application Manager" app, which I was also able to uninstall.

The best you can do is not log in

[damn_registrars]

Yeah, it sucks that Samsung won't sell you a phone without it. You can of course buy phones from other companies (Motorola phones generally don't have facebook preinstalled) but if for whatever reason you have to have a Samsung phone, the only effective way to keep facebook from following you is to never use the app. That's what I've done with every Samsung android phone I've had, and it seems to work pretty well.

It might help somewhat that I don't have a facebook account, but the point is the same. They can't track you if you don't associate your phone with an account.

Re:The best you can do is not log in

[tsqr]

Damn. I was getting all pumped up to join in the outrage; then I discovered that I can delete (not just disable) the Facebook app from my Samsung S8+. Maybe it's the carriers that make these deals and not Samsung, and Verizon didn't make the deal? Now I sorta feel left out.

The right to r00t

[hAckz0r]

Almost any purchased phone these days comes with a bunch of crapware applications that consume what limited space there is on that device. No application should be undeletable. I don't care if it is the manufacturer, service provider, or the Android developers. We should have the permissions necessary to delete any application from any phone/device we purchase, and if not, the right to r00t that device in order to remove it without invalidating the warranty.

Just like the right to repair, we should have the right to remove. The necessity of deleting apps we still want to have, just so we can update the other apps that we still want to have, is completely ridiculous when we could have just removed their (in most cases) disabled crapware instead. Why do I need to have three or four separate "music purchasing" applications on my phone that I will never even run? Why do I need to have numerous video applications on a phone that I can't even find the space to store a movie? What is the point of consuming so much space on that device that you can't get anything to work without having to find innovative ways to defeat their own enforcement policies?

Re: The right to r00t

[Anonymous Coward]

But you don't have those rights and you never will because the rest of us doesn't care about the shit you autistic losers want. Verstanden?

Re: The right to r00t

[PPH]

Verstanden?

Jawohl, mein Fuhrer!

Facebook App

[DaMattster]

Disabling the Facebook App is almost as good as deleting it. My LG Stylo 4 is rooted so I can see the process tree and there is no Facebook processes running when the app is disabled. Personally, I think it is anti-consumer to force users to use certain apps and not allow them to be deleted. This could be a nice class action lawsuit against Facebook, the phone manufacturers, and the carriers.

Re:Facebook App

[Iwastheone]

I use NoRoot Firewall by Grey Shirts in order to prevent certain pre-installed apps from having any access to the internet. I have no idea where this app redirects to, nor do I care, could be the Chinese leaders desk for all I care. It just works.

The Biggest lies

[thomn8r]

I'll respect you in the morning, it's just a cold sore, and it doesn't continue collecting data or sending information back to Facebook.

Complete deal breaker for me...

[Anonymous Coward]

...I'll buy an LG or some other make and model (with a head phone jack) instead.

Sigh

[ledow]

"the best" phone experience right after opening the box...

would include "Do you want me to install Facebook for you? Yes/No" and if I click No then it doesn't do anything at all and leaves no traces or processes around whatsoever.

Hell, "Would you like me to install a bunch of common apps (e.g. Facebook, Snapchat, Whatsapp, etc.) for you now?" would be absolutely fine - user-friendly, helpful for newbies, and not obstructive to power users.

If Samsung did that, instead of forcing apps that I will NEVER use on my phone (including all the Samsung apps, not to mention things like Flipboard or whatever it is, Office suites and all kinds), I'd actually like them MORE and recommend them MORE and get them MORE customers and money than they will ever get in goodwill gestures from Facebook etc. for doing so.

Honestly, it's not your phone Samsung. Feel free to suggest things, but let me even turn off suggestions.

Re:Sigh

[Anonymous Coward]

Honestly, it's not your phone Samsung.

I ain't defending Samsung here, but I do have to take some issue with this. Samsung made the phone - it's their design, their implementation of Android. It is most definitely their phone, at least in terms of how they wanted it to look and feel. When you buy it you implicitly accept that their design is what you're getting, with all the advantages and disadvantages.

Now if you are able to do things that weren't intended of the phone (e.g. wipe and put a third-party build of Android) that's cool, but that's not an assumed feature unless advertised as such or written down in the manual. I really do like your suggestion about the prompt to install common apps and being able to deny doing so if desired, but I somehow doubt many phones will offer this because honestly, not wanting things like Facebook on a phone is more of a niche idea.

Guess all I'm trying to say is that if you don't like the preinstalled apps then choose something else or live with it (or find a third option), but you can't argue it's not Samsung's phone when they built the fucking thing.

Start charging rent

[Anonymous Coward]

You own the device and they are taking up residence on your property. Start charging them fucking rent at $1 per BIT.

So...

[argStyopa]

"A Facebook spokesperson said the disabled version of the app acts like it's been deleted"
So then what's the reasoning preventing us from, y'know, ACTUALLY deleting it?

You Idiots

[Anonymous Coward]

Stop buying phones with bootloaders that the manufacturer will not permit you to unlock. What the fuck is wrong with you people?

This is news?

[Chris Mattern]

Samsung phones have had apps you can't delete for years, including Facebook and other stuff.

Never got this

[DrXym]

Okay, I understand why Facebook might pay Samsung to put an app on their phone, but why bake it into the firmware? Facebook is one of those apps which updates every week so the one in the firmware is instantly obsolete wasting space even if someone did want to use that app. What's the point?

It would be far more sensible to just ask the user during phone setup if they want [list of partner apps] installed and if the user says yes they get queued up for installation. Otherwise a clean phone. And aside from being a way for the user to avoid crapware, it makes the firmware easier to test since there is less in it.

But this is Samsung. Their phones are filled with crapware, much of it of their own making and I doubt they'll change any time soon unless people start voting with their wallets.

It's not just facebook

[guacamole]

My older Samsung devices came preinstalled with Evernote, Netflix, Flipboard, NYTimes, and others. And while it was possible to disable most of these (not completely uninstall though), the Evernote could not be even disabled . Thank you Samsung.

Samsung Users...

[Anonymous Coward]

Zuckers.

Welcome to 2017

[Anonymous Coward]

Had my Samsung S8 for a while and this is nothing new. Why is this news?

Interesting play on words..

[sycodon]

If it "Acts" like it's been deleted, then that suggests it is actually running and therefor able to, "act".

Is this an unfortunate and awkward statement on their part, or is it a deliberate effort to suggest the app is inert while being truthful about that fact the app is still running?

Don't put anything past the lawyers.

Re:Interesting play on words..

[Solandri]

The app is inert if it's disabled. It doesn't run. (Disabling it also reverts it to the original version which came with the device, which is actually a bit troubling since although it's supposed to be a space-saving move, it implies that if you don't disable it your device actually wastes storage space on two copies of the app. On some devices, the original version is just a placeholder about 8 kB in size.)

The problem is another app - Facebook App Manager or whatever they're calling it now. It's responsible for keeping Facebook's suite of apps updated. You're supposed to be able to disable it, but on some devices it can't be disabled. I disabled the Facebook app on my Motorola phone, but couldn't disable Facebook App Manager. I found it's activity spiking one day, then noticed that the Facebook had been enabled and updated. So I disabled the Facebook app again, only to find it re-enabled and updated again a few days later. I had been being lazy and hadn't rooted this phone yet, but that's what finally got me to put aside the time one evening to root it. Both are gone for good now.

But Android = open source

[Anonymous Coward]

Doesn't everyone here say the strength of Android is that you can do whatever you want with it, so writing something to remove Facebook should be simple.

"Non-technical user discovers bloatware"

[Anonymous Coward]

There, fixed your headline. Hopefully the article will just disappear inside it's own irrelevance now.

But seriously, how did this make front-page?

I love you Samsung, but fuck off

[Anonymous Coward]

I loved my Galaxy S7... in all ways except one it was an awesome phone. Then I discovered that my phone came with Facebook software. Not only is this software undeletable, but --EVEN AFTER I DISABLED IT-- the "Facebook Services" continued to auto-update. I repeatedly received notifications that my phone now has a new version of "Facebook Services." Great... um, wait... what the fuck is that?

I do not trust Facebook and I do not want their software on my phone. Samsung flagship phones are not cheap... when it was released the Galaxy S9 cost over $700 and the Galaxy Note 9 cost over $1100. At this prices, these devices should not include undeletable bloatware from Facebook.

I voted with my wallet, buying two Pixel 3s last month.

I love you Samsung, but fuck off.

So, again

[nightfire-unique]

We need laws that confirm and protect our right to root our devices; it should be illegal to manufacture, sell, or import for resale any device which has intentional limitations on privilege escalation.

There can be no negotiation on this point. The alternative is, frankly, terrifying.

glib, lip-licking paternalism

[epine]

but said they're meant to give the consumer "the best" phone experience right after opening the box

Basically that translates to: assume the position; you can thank us later for providing you with such a nice, soft barrel.

Nobody's upset about LG doing this

[Anonymous Coward]

LG puts 3 Facebook apps on their phones that cannot be deleted. Two of them always run and cannot be disabled.

I don't hear anyone getting upset about it.

Shades of the Microsoft IE ruling...

[Anonymous Coward]

This is just like the MS bundling of IE. If Samsung want to bundle Facebook then they should be able to bundle Facebook. Not that I want Facebook. Hell no. But it's their choice as a company. Just like they chose to bundle a bunch of other stuff.

I always personally thought the ruling against MS bundling IE was BS. It was their choice. Some of us remember when OS's came without a TCP/IP stack and you had to buy or find one to install.

What WAS a big deal was the way MS used their monopoly to block the offering of dual boot to e.g. BeOS. That was clearly monopolisticYet the govt went after MS for the IE integration.

just what you would expect

[Anonymous Coward]

from the crooks at FaceBook.

Driven away from Android

[Anonymous Coward]

I've had exactly one Android phone. It was a high-end HTC phone that also had FB pre-installed. I tried using that app for a while, but it quickly wanted to take over my ENTIRE phone! It was like the Borg (you WILL be assimilated)! It took over my lock screen, home screen, sent notifications... none of which were things I asked it to do! I disabled the app, but the fact that I couldn't uninstall it drove me away from Android. I'm not crazy about iOS, but I have NO intention of going back to Android.

EU will fix that for you

[Anonymous Coward]

Just a matter of time and the EU will fine Facebook and Samsung over this

Give us the option to uninstall!

[Anonymous Coward]

I don't accept the Facebook TOS

Disabled apps can still run

[WaffleMonster]

This is a common theme I keep hearing over and over again. Apparently vendors think if they parrot the same lie enough times users will believe it.

First they said you didn't have to stop apps because they won't consume resources unless they are in the foreground so it makes no difference what's running.

Then they said if an app isn't running it can't do anything.

Finally they said if an app is disabled it can't possibly execute.

All three are false assertions on the Android platform. Reality is you can register with various systems to live through anything and creepy stalker apps leverage it to the max.

Samsung is not user friendly

[bobbutts]

I switched to a Pixel 2 from my Samsung Galaxy S7 mostly because Samsung was so hostile to unlocking the bootloader and rooting the phone. It was possible to modify, but it didn't perform as well as it did on stock. At least with the Pixel 2 I can unlock the bootloader and root the device with only a stern warning about the integrity of the OS not being verified.

What's the fuss?

[OneHundredAndTen]

We all know what Samsung is like. If you are stupid enough to give them your money, you deserve what you get.

It's not only Samsungs

[Anonymous Coward]

I recently discovered that the option to disable automatic Facebook, Messenger & Instagram upgrades on my Google Pixel 3 XL is missing entirely in each app. So, despite turning off updates in Google Play, the apps update. It's really upsetting.

I had no problem deleting Facebook from my S8

[Blinkin1200]

I upgraded to an S8 last August and had no problem deleting the Facebook app. It was one of the first things I did with the phone. I'm on Verizon.

Facebook app?!?!

[Bruinwar]

I didn't even know it was on my S8. Thanks Slashdot! I uninstalled the app, no problem. Verizon S8... I get a nice discount from my employer with Verizon OK?!

Facebook should be removable

[trytoguess]

Assuming you're ok with using adb, someone with a Galaxy S8 should be able to remove Facebook (or any other bloatware) even if they don't have root. You'll just need to follow these steps from xda. Only issue with this is anything you remove will come back if you do a factory reset.

A decade ago called and wants it's news back

[Anonymous Coward]

I do pissing hate the forced apps and on throwaway project phones I don't even install the Google framework stuff. I don't need a whole host of crap for convenience when I know I what I want, which gets put on right after Lineage. The thing is my carrier locked phone a it has been this way forever, you expect it and hate it at the same time. Getting a new phone creates anxiety as you don't know until you open the box how bad it'll be for bloat. When unlimited data plans popped up there was usually a good chance the phone had 2 screen of shitware but it's not that simple. Odd side effect means no more desire for the latest phones on contract and you get more use appreciating your older device that doesn't even support that latest in arsehole tracking technology

Re:I wonder how that plays with Not-Facebook-Membe

[Anonymous Coward]

As I am not on Facebook (never was), any enabled Facebook-App means that the phone is sending my data to a company I don't have a contract with. And I don't see that there is any agreement between the company and me signed or otherwise agreed upon, that they are entitled to my data, and they didn't present me with any list of things they are intending to do with my data.

There is most certainly an agreement. Read the EULA.

Disabled == deleted

[farble1670]

He tried to remove the program from his phone, but the chatter proved true -- it was undeletable. He found only an option to "disable," and he wasn't sure what that meant.

When apps are installed via the system image (shipped with the phone) they can't be deleted, because that would mean modifying a signed, read-only disk partition.

Android instead has the ability to disable these apps. That means they will never run, won't show in the launcher, and won't use any data storage (beyond what the original app image uses of the read-only partition, which can't be used for anything else anyway, except pre-installing a different app).

Re:I wonder how that plays with Not-Facebook-Membe

[Waccoon]

Everything is done with EULAs these days. What are these "contracts" you mention?

I'm sure if you read the Samsung EULA closely enough, it says something about "sharing with business partners -- but only the absolute minimum amount required to fulfill services".

android one

[sad_]

for me to buy a phone, it needs one or preferably both of these;

- runs with the android one program, a clean android with no extra crap or crazy customizations, but with regular updates
- is an open device which allows me to install a custom rom

shouldn't be too much to ask for.

Whats the most annoying to me

[Anonymous Coward]

is that even once your contract has expired and the phone is really yours... you still cant .. even on an unlocked phone... you can't uninstall it.
I really am considering discarting samsung once and for all....

ADB

[Anonymous Coward]

With the Android Debug Bridge interface you can issue commands that, atleast in my personal experience, delete these kinds of apps that can't be deleted via the user directly.

My Sony phone came with some horrible 'What's New' app that couldn't be deleted from the phone, only disabled (and it would re-enable every so often). Using ADB it's now gone and been gone for a year with no re-occurrences, even after upgrading to the latest firmware version (for Android P).

Don't forget about Facebook App Installer

[Krutontar]

So under apps you have Facebook and Facebook App Manager....but that's not all. I installed F-Droid and DNS66 (I don't have root yet) and if you tell it to show system apps you see that there is also something called Facebook App Installer (com.facebook.system) which is not visible on the regular Apps list so there is no button to stop/disable. Just a little PSA. Make sure your phone is rootable before you buy :P

Re:Don't forget about Facebook App Installer

[Krutontar]

Edit: I hadn't found the "view system apps" button on the normal app page. New phone. But you can disable it from there. Whatever Disable really means...