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Android Q Will Include More Ways For Carriers To SIM Lock Your Phone (9to5google.com)

Posted by BeauHD on from the it's-not-all-rainbows-and-butterflies dept.

An anonymous reader quotes a report from 9to5Google: Over the weekend, four commits were posted to various parts of Android's Gerrit source code management, all entitled "Carrier restriction enhancements for Android Q." In them, we see that network carriers will have more fine-grained control over which networks devices will and will not work on. More specifically, it will be possible to designate a list of "allowed" and "excluded" carriers, essentially a whitelist and a blacklist of what will and won't work on a particular phone. This can be done with a fine-grained detail to even allow blocking virtual carrier networks that run on the same towers as your main carrier.

Restriction changes are also on the way for dual-SIM devices. At the moment, carriers can set individual restrictions for each SIM slot, but with Android Q, carriers will be able to lock out the second slot unless there's an approved SIM card in the first slot. This SIM lock restriction is applied immediately and will persist through restarting the phone, and even doing a factory reset. Thankfully, in both cases, emergency phone calls will still work as expected, regardless of any restrictions on the particular SIM cards in your phone.

164 of 262 comments (clear)

  1. Property is dead by sg_oneill · · Score: 4, Insightful

    Somewhere in the heart of Android, theres a Linux kernel, still under the GPL, bleeding out for the loss of all it was supposed represent.

    "Property" is now "Rent".

    --
    Excuse the Unicode crap in my posts. That's an apostrophe, and slashdot is busted.
    1. Re:Property is dead by AmiMoJo · · Score: 5, Interesting

      In this case you decided to rent your phone from the carrier. You pay monthly for it, if you exit early there are fees and they want the phone back or the remainder of the balance on it, right?

      Just buy the phone unlocked, or get a contract from someone who doesn't lock it to one network. I get the impression that such options are not widely available in the US, but around here it's common, usually cheaper and I've never bought a SIM locked phone ever.

      --
      const int one = 65536; (Silvermoon, Texture.cs)
      SJW, n: "Someone I don't like, and by the way I'm a fuckwit" - AC
    2. Re:Property is dead by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1

      Fuchsia. And it's nuclear, not nucular.

    3. Re:Property is dead by Wrath0fb0b · · Score: 2

      Somewhere in the heart of Android, theres a Linux kernel, still under the GPL, bleeding out for the loss of all it was supposed represent.

      And next to the core running Linux is a cellular modem, running some wonderful proprietary "OS" on a DSP. You don't really think they were running LTE signal processing on a vanilla ARM under Linux, right?

      The GPL doesn't mean that software running on a completely separate core (or in some cases, a completely separate physical semiconductor) inherits the GPL just because Linux talks to it via some driver.

      [ There are a few OSS-friendly cellular modems, but they are a few generations behind on speed, power and certifications. ]

    4. Re:Property is dead by sinij · · Score: 1

      You also forgot to mention that you have to pay all these bullshit unlocking fees even after you paid off your phone/contract term.

    5. Re:Property is dead by ctilsie242 · · Score: 5, Informative

      I'd be careful on that. I have had some carriers lock unlocked phones, or re-lock phones that were unlocked. How does this rev of Android know the difference between a phone that was locked from the factory versus a carrier trying to seize control of a factory unlocked device and lock it to their network?

      I wouldn't be surprised if a lot of carriers would love to lock out that second SIM as a matter of principle.

    6. Re:Property is dead by thegarbz · · Score: 2

      "Property" is now "Rent".

      SIM locking was introduced with the very earliest of mobile phones. I take issue with you saying that property is *now* rent especially since the only phones actually SIM locked are those which are actually rented.

    7. Re:Property is dead by mjwx · · Score: 5, Informative

      In this case you decided to rent your phone from the carrier. You pay monthly for it, if you exit early there are fees and they want the phone back or the remainder of the balance on it, right?

      Just buy the phone unlocked, or get a contract from someone who doesn't lock it to one network. I get the impression that such options are not widely available in the US, but around here it's common, usually cheaper and I've never bought a SIM locked phone ever.

      This. In almost every country I've been to you can buy phones outright and stick a SIM from any carrier in them. It gets a bit fuzzy when new networks are established and sometimes the frequencies used are not supported by all handsets, but generally if you're buying locally your phone will work (those of use who buy cheaply from importers need to do their homework).

      Only in the US are you restricted by the carriers. Only a few carriers will permit a non-carrier phone to even be registered on their network and even then you need to register the IMEI on their network before they'll let you do anything. Not like here in the UK where I can walk into Tesco and get a SIM card that will register itself. In fact the UK 3 brand PAYG (Pay As You Go) SIM is highly prized by American travellers because it includes data roaming to 73 countries. Last time I went to the US I used a 3 SIM and got 1GB of data for £10 that just worked when I turned my phone on in LAX, no mucking about at an AT&T store.

      --
      Calling someone a "hater" only means you can not rationally rebut their argument.
    8. Re:Property is dead by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1

      Buying unlocked phones is not difficult.

      Amazon sells them, and they aren't alone either. The last two phones I bought were both unlocked phones through Amazon.

      You might not be able to buy an unlocked phone at a carrier's own store, but minimal searches will find unlocked US phones.

    9. Re:Property is dead by mattb47 · · Score: 4, Interesting

      US carriers often (usually?) won't let phones from pay-as-you-go or virtual carriers register unless the phones are a year (maybe two) old.

      So a newer phone from Total Wireless (a virtual carrier using Verizon's network) can't be registered on Verizon.

      The major carriers don't want the cheap, somewhat subsidized phones from these pay-as-you-go services cannibalizing their more expensive authorized phones. (Especially if those phones are from the big carriers' own pay-as-you-go services.)

      However, the carriers generally allow unlocked, unaffiliated phones. Verizon, Sprint, T-Mobile, and AT&T all allow this. Just buy an unlocked and non-carrier locked phone. It's not that hard. As I posted above (anonymously -- signed in for this post), unlocked and carrier-agnostic phones are readily available on Amazon on other online merchants.

    10. Re:Property is dead by bill_mcgonigle · · Score: 2

      It's easy to buy an unlocked phone, and activate it on most any network. I always go that route - probably for the last decade, even when it was harder.

      The only trick is you need to know what you're shopping for. For instance, I might have a OnePlus phone, if it handled Verizon LTE band 13, but it doesn't, and that's what available where I actually drive in the real world. So I got an unlocked Essential phone instead. Many people don't understand how the tech works, and it isn't easy to figure this out if you're just shopping on Amazon. Which is too bad, and/or a market opportunity.

      --
      My God, it's Full of Source!
      OUTSIDE_IP=$(dig +short my.ip @outsideip.net)
    11. Re: Property is dead by Z00L00K · · Score: 1

      I only once got a phone that was simlocked, but the seller unlocked it for me since I actually paid full price for it.

      Since then I have always purchased phone and subscription separately. I'm pretty satisfied with the Cat S60 I have now with dual sims.

      But simlocking should be banned.

      --
      If builders built buildings the way programmers wrote programs, then the first woodpecker would destroy civilization.
    12. Re:Property is dead by tepples · · Score: 1

      All of the major carriers in the US allow you to bring your own phone

      Which doesn't help if the vast majority of stores in which you can see and touch a phone before buying it sell only locked phones.

    13. Re: Property is dead by Z00L00K · · Score: 1

      That was a separate lock code that you as a user could set.

      --
      If builders built buildings the way programmers wrote programs, then the first woodpecker would destroy civilization.
    14. Re:Property is dead by drinkypoo · · Score: 1

      I'd be careful on that. I have had some carriers lock unlocked phones, or re-lock phones that were unlocked.

      Next time, don't hand them your phone. Just install their SIM. There's literally no way for a SIM to lock your phone, although maybe Google will add that to Android Q, too.

      --
      "You're right," Fisheye says. "I should have set it on 'whip' or 'chop.'"
    15. Re:Property is dead by drinkypoo · · Score: 4, Insightful

      Which doesn't help if the vast majority of stores in which you can see and touch a phone before buying it sell only locked phones.

      So do what everyone else does. Go into the store that sells locked phones, try them out, then buy an unlocked phone on the internet. Make sure you tell the salesdroid that you're not going to buy a phone in his shop because they don't sell unlocked phones, on your way out.

      --
      "You're right," Fisheye says. "I should have set it on 'whip' or 'chop.'"
    16. Re:Property is dead by gaiageek · · Score: 1

      My big concern with this code is that I might put a SIM in my unlocked device and the carrier might exploit this feature to lock my SIM (or 2nd SIM slot) unbeknownst to me until I decide to leave them for another carrier, at which point they no longer care and won't help me resolve it. This could happen intentionally (which could/should be illegal) or unintentionally, and either way be a major PITA.

      --
      www.gaiageek.com
    17. Re:Property is dead by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1

      In that case, you see and touch the phone in their showroom and then head off to the internet to buy it unlocked from somebody else.

      There's absolutely no justification for these phones being locked in the first place. You have to pay off whatever outstanding balance you had if you terminate your service early and if you don't, they wind up unlocking it later on.

      One of the reasons that I'm no longer with AT&T was theri egregious patching policy where they can do whatever they feel like doing to my personal property without needing permission or even inform me that they're going to do it. I complained and the bootlickers on their forum were acting like AT&T had some sort of a legal right to do it. They don't, I owned the phone, I paid for the phone, AT&T does not get to screw around with my property without my permission.

    18. Re:Property is dead by Dayze!Confused · · Score: 1

      When I bought my iPhone 6s full price from AT&T I called them that night and had it unlocked, then tested out a T-Mobile SIM in it and it worked right away. If you've paid for the phone you can get it unlocked.

      --
      "All tyranny needs to gain a foothold is for people of good conscience to remain silent." [Thomas Jefferson]
    19. Re:Property is dead by Opportunist · · Score: 3, Informative

      Then go, see and touch a phone, then asked for an unlocked one. If they can't provide one, you at least have no problem with your conscience for buying it cheaper online.

      It might teach them that those who sell what the customer demands stay in business. Ya know, like, how it was supposed in capitalism?

      --
      We used to have a Bill of Rights. Now, with the rights gone, all we have left is the bill.
    20. Re:Property is dead by Shaitan · · Score: 1

      The carrier sells you the phone at a discount rate alongside a contract. They add the installments on the bill. If you leave early you pay the balance. That isn't rent, it's a loan on a purchase. You own the purchase, not them.

    21. Re:Property is dead by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1

      Don't do drugs.

    22. Re:Property is dead by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 2, Insightful

      One law, and that goes away. One decision by Google(aka state front company) and that goes away. Your phone is a spying device that is owned by the government. The telecoms are state-front companies, same as Google. The nut Stallman was warning of this for decades. Enjoy you freedom while it lasts.

    23. Re: Property is dead by Shaitan · · Score: 2

      That is the purpose of the whole scheme. The carrier sells the phone at a discount because they'll make it up on the contract. Really I think this was more about the free phone options than anything. They don't want to take the free phone, pay a cancellation fee, and then move to another carrier with their loss leader.

    24. Re:Property is dead by AmiMoJo · · Score: 1

      I've never heard of that happening here, and would certainly be illegal. It really seems like you need some better consumer protection laws if they can get away with damaging your phone like that.

      --
      const int one = 65536; (Silvermoon, Texture.cs)
      SJW, n: "Someone I don't like, and by the way I'm a fuckwit" - AC
    25. Re:Property is dead by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1, Insightful

      The SIM can do almost anything to your phone. It's a complete computer with CPU, memory, OS, etc., and it talks to the "modem", which has access to the phone on a very low level. The network can also tell your "modem" to do some scary stuff to your phone. Smartphones are not secure devices.

    26. Re:Property is dead by b0s0z0ku · · Score: 1

      You're assuming that you should have "conscience problems" whilst dealing with corporate assholes in the first place.

    27. Re:Property is dead by b0s0z0ku · · Score: 1

      I think Apple used to lock iPhones to the first SIM that was inserted when the device was activated. Never heard of Android devices doing that, though.

    28. Re:Property is dead by drinkypoo · · Score: 1

      US carriers often (usually?) won't let phones from pay-as-you-go or virtual carriers register unless the phones are a year (maybe two) old.
      So a newer phone from Total Wireless (a virtual carrier using Verizon's network) can't be registered on Verizon.

      That's not how it works at all. It's that US carriers won't SIM unlock those phones for you until they are months to a year old, if then. Tracfone will never SIM unlock anything, for example, but Verizon or ATT or T-Mobile will. Carriers don't care where your phone came from any more, but they do still care where it's going.

      --
      "You're right," Fisheye says. "I should have set it on 'whip' or 'chop.'"
    29. Re:Property is dead by b0s0z0ku · · Score: 1

      Verizon is rather kentish about bringing your own phone -- they only allow "approved devices"; even if the phone would technically work with Verizon's network, it may not be approved for service.

    30. Re:Property is dead by dargaud · · Score: 4, Interesting

      Yeah, with a SIM from 'Free' (a French carrier), I get 25Gb of data a month in the US for... 14€ a month. And it roams with all US carriers, so it's so much better and cheaper than any SIM I could get in the US !!!

      --
      Non-Linux Penguins ?
    31. Re:Property is dead by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1

      Some of them are now making you wait a couple of weeks. They say it is something about theft of phones that are shipped locked or some bull crap. But they aren't all unlocking immediately anymore. There were some articles about it about two months back.

    32. Re:Property is dead by whoever57 · · Score: 2

      My T-Mobile LG G5 came with an app that permanently unlocked it. I had to pay nothing to unlock my phone.

      --
      The real "Libtards" are the Libertarians!
    33. Re:Property is dead by thegarbz · · Score: 1

      First you say it's a loan, then you say you own it. Read you contract, you'll find you're actually wrong about the ownership.

    34. Re:Property is dead by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1

      Consumer protection? In the US, there is none. It's only carrier protection.

    35. Re:Property is dead by JackieBrown · · Score: 1

      Which flagship phone? Samsung, Moto, LG all sell unlocked versions on their phones on Amazon.

    36. Re:Property is dead by Wrath0fb0b · · Score: 1

      Yes, the RIL -- the Radio Interface Layer.

      You might consider, what does the RIL interface with? If you track it down from userland to the kernel you'll see it's communicating with the cellular modem, either over some actual physical interface like USB or a intra-SOC shared memory bus.

    37. Re:Property is dead by wbr1 · · Score: 1

      Exactly this. I have a verizon Pixel XL - it was on a contract but acting flaky. I paid it off and upgrades to a Pixel 3 XL. The old XL still works, but every other reboot it hang sin some sort of unactivated mode that hands th whole OS until I force a reboot. I paid for this phone. It should be mine to use on wifi as a media player, camera, whatever.

      --
      Silence is a state of mime.
    38. Re:Property is dead by JackieBrown · · Score: 1

      They can't. He was posting a hypothetical while wearing a tin foil hat

    39. Re: Property is dead by JackieBrown · · Score: 1

      Until you finish paying it off, you don't completely own it

    40. Re:Property is dead by geoscodin · · Score: 1

      I bought my first LTC Thunderbolt from Verizon, but I've never bought another phone from them. I buy them refurbished on eBay or Amazon for myself, my wife, and my kids,. Verizon has never been hesitant about it. I asked the first time I bought a phone elsewhere and they said, "Absolutely." So after that I've always just gone online, switched the old phone to the new phone, and I'm done.

    41. Re:Property is dead by jimbo · · Score: 3, Insightful

      I have the same experience. I guess the Americans don't have as much freedom as other countries, except for large corporations.

    42. Re:Property is dead by Actually,+I+do+RTFA · · Score: 2

      Is it subsidized by the French government? Because how does that work? Seems like the US companies wouldn't like it. Also, do they sell SIMs in the US?

      --
      Your ad here. Ask me how!
    43. Re:Property is dead by nightfire-unique · · Score: 1

      So do what everyone else does. Go into the store that sells locked phones, try them out, then buy an unlocked phone on the internet. Make sure you tell the salesdroid that you're not going to buy a phone in his shop because they don't sell unlocked phones, on your way out.

      Literally no one does this. Like actually zero people (rounded down).

      --
      A government is a body of people notably ungoverned - AC
    44. Re:Property is dead by nightfire-unique · · Score: 4, Informative

      Wat?

      The salesman needs and deserves to know why he/she lost the sale. Walking out without saying anything is literally the rudest thing you can do.

      Certainly don't be a dick about it, but always let people know why they've lost your business.

      --
      A government is a body of people notably ungoverned - AC
    45. Re:Property is dead by Slugster · · Score: 1

      People in the US generally don't bother with buying unlocked phones from outside sources since technical standards at many cell service providers prevent bringing your own device. And even of the companies that allow it (T-Mobile and AT&T) they will often try to hassle you into upgrading your account, since you aren't using the 'limited' device they sold the account with.

      The greater evil here is that Google has sold Android under the feel-good banner of open-source, while allowing phone manufacturers and networks to lock it with their shit-ware intact. And Google is no help with jail-breaking phones, they just shrug and say there's nothing they can do. If Google made a universal unlocking tool, a lot of these "problems" of Android crap-ware would disappear overnight.

      Google does their own level of tracking and isn't likely to give that up.... And they like the fees they get from locking it up for cell phone companies.... And so (unfortunately for Google) as iPhones have gotten cheaper, this is becoming a larger and larger selling point in favor of going iPhone and not dealing with Android bullshit at all.

    46. Re:Property is dead by HornWumpus · · Score: 2

      Just a note: T-Mobile doesn't do VOLTE the correct 'standard' way. So your world phone will 'sort of work', but the service is absolute _unreliable_ crap. You miss calls if your have a LTE connection, get it when you have a lessor one.

      AT&T is your only option in America to use standard band 'world phones'.

      Be aware, _punish_ T-Mobile. They've been refusing to comply with the standard for years now.

      --
      John McAfee 'It was like that time I hired that Bangkok prostitute; to do my taxes, while I fucked my accountant'
    47. Re:Property is dead by Pitawg · · Score: 1

      Corporate policy is all "salesmen" speak. Corporate deserves nothing from me. Telcos deserve nothing, but owe me. not the other way around.

    48. Re:Property is dead by dargaud · · Score: 1

      Not subsidized. It works through roaming agreements.

      --
      Non-Linux Penguins ?
    49. Re:Property is dead by Darth · · Score: 1

      when i bought a new iphone, i went to the apple store, bought it and took it home. then i realized my old phone had a different size sim card so i went to the at&t store and asked for the newer size sim card for my number. I didn't take the new phone with me, so the guy just put his imei from his phone in and gave me the new card. i went home, popped it in the new phone and it worked. phone is not locked to the carrier, carrier doesn't have my imei, and (outside of actually paying for the phone) it cost me nothing. If i had already had the right size sim card, i wouldn't have needed to give them an imei for the new phone either. apparently it is only used to activate the sim and is not used at all afterward.

      Back in the day when i first got at&t, i just picked up a sim from them and put it in my iphone i had then without any issues. i don't remember if i gave them its imei or not. i do know before that i was using a t-mobile sim when t-mobile wasn't officially supported by iphones (this was an original iphone 1) without any issues and without informing t-mobile of the new phone.

      --
      Darth --
      Nil Mortifi, Sine Lucre
    50. Re:Property is dead by Dayze!Confused · · Score: 1

      Good to know, it has been since the iPhone 6s first came out that I have bought a phone. At the rate things are going it will probably be about as long again until I need a new phone.

      --
      "All tyranny needs to gain a foothold is for people of good conscience to remain silent." [Thomas Jefferson]
    51. Re:Property is dead by TechyImmigrant · · Score: 1

      So you paid full price for a locked phone that you had to get unlocked. This is the definition of sucking a lot.

      I know AT&T do that. It's a reason to not buy stuff from AT&T.

      --
      I should use this sig to advertise my book ISBN-13 : 978-1501515132.
    52. Re:Property is dead by whoever57 · · Score: 1

      So do what everyone else does. Go into the store that sells locked phones, try them out, then buy an unlocked phone on the internet.

      .... and pay more for it.

      The major carriers subsidize phones and do not offer discounts if you opt to bring your own phone.

      --
      The real "Libtards" are the Libertarians!
    53. Re: Property is dead by astrofurter · · Score: 1

      Google Fuchsia - it fucks ya!

    54. Re: Property is dead by astrofurter · · Score: 1

      Carrier locking really ought to be illegal.

    55. Re: Property is dead by astrofurter · · Score: 1

      "state front company"

      The word you're looking for is "parastate".

    56. Re: Property is dead by astrofurter · · Score: 1

      Huh? Wtf does seizure (by an ostensibly capitalist regime) of an old lady's house for back taxes have to do with Marxism?

    57. Re:Property is dead by bluegutang · · Score: 1

      Is this something that US people could sign up for without visiting France?

    58. Re:Property is dead by Shaitan · · Score: 1

      The two aren't mutually exclusive. The bank doesn't actually own the property that secures a loan. The seller also being the bank doesn't actually change that.

    59. Re:Property is dead by dargaud · · Score: 1
      Unfortunately no. They built expensive roaming agreements for Europe first, then the EU forced all carriers to have cheap roaming (no more 100euros for 2 minutes of background internet). Now they are extending to other countries out of Europe. So all carriers are actually more convenient to use in foreign countries because they can roam with competing networks. In order to limit what you want, and since you don't even have to be resident to buy a SIM, there's a time limit on how many days of roaming you can do. Last I checked it was 35 days per year, but I've gone over that limit without incurring additional costs.

      I travel a lot in Europe and I used to have various contracts in various countries, now I just have one and it works way better and cheaper. Thank the EU for that!

      --
      Non-Linux Penguins ?
    60. Re:Property is dead by HornWumpus · · Score: 1

      That is the typical behavior. No ring, straight to voicemail, never losing bars.

      Also why do all cell phone networks give you bogus 'rings' when dialing? They should just admit their networks are slow to connect and give honest rings only when the phone being called actually rings.

      --
      John McAfee 'It was like that time I hired that Bangkok prostitute; to do my taxes, while I fucked my accountant'
    61. Re: Property is dead by nightfire-unique · · Score: 1

      We live in a bubble, dude/dudette.

      99.5% of people go to the cell phone store and buy whatever they think will help get them laid.

      --
      A government is a body of people notably ungoverned - AC
    62. Re:Property is dead by Jerry+Atrick · · Score: 1

      I've bought mostly locked phones in the UK, the premium for an unlocked version has always been higher than the cost of an unlock code. Usually by more than 10x. I've waited more than 4 hours for the unlock code only once.

      Buying unlocked is nice but unnecessary here.

  2. Good Idea by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 3, Insightful

    In a boardroom somewhere in Businessland, a flock of executards converse:

    Smartphone sales have been down for four straight quarters. What can we do to make people want to buy them even less?

    1. Re:Good Idea by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1

      This reminds me of the recent articles that said Spectrum/AT&T and others are raising cable prices in response to cord cutters. Yeah, that will work so well....

  3. Not going to happen by houghi · · Score: 5, Interesting

    Where I live, simlocking is not allowed. Every phone you buy will be unlocked. Every. Single. One.

    There is a difference between your phone and your carrier fees and your phone. So if you buy a plan with a phone, you can drop the plan and use the phone at any other carrier.

    You could even put the SIM in your old Nokia phone and not use your new phone, or not use your new plan and use the phone on a pre-paid card, or ...

    This all doe snot mean you do not still have to pay your plan and pay a lot of extra fees if you decide to step out early. But that is for the plan, not for the phone.

    The country is Belgium. Home of the free sims and beer.

    --
    Don't fight for your country, if your country does not fight for you.
    1. Re:Not going to happen by Cederic · · Score: 4, Insightful

      Yeah, this is only an issue for people living in countries that vote against government regulation of big businesses.

      It's almost as though they fail to understand that the government is formalised representation of people and their wishes and a necessary control against well resourced organisations that could otherwise abuse and exploit ordinary people.

    2. Re:Not going to happen by bickerdyke · · Score: 4, Interesting

      Where I live, simlocking is not allowed. Every phone you buy will be unlocked.

      Germany here.

      Every phone you buy, yes.

      But phones given to you as part of your plan aren't exactly bought. And getting a plan that pays for a phone with higher-than-usual minute prices may be stupid and a bet on your phone behaviour (by both sides of the deal...) but legal. And a legitimate reason for sim-locking.

      So here, IIRC, it is legal to include a phone with sim-locking into your plan, but it has to be unlocked when the plan ends.

      --
      bickerdyke
    3. Re:Not going to happen by InfiniteBlaze · · Score: 4, Insightful

      People only vote that way because corporations are given a platform. Stupid fucking Citizens United bullshit.

    4. Re:Not going to happen by stealth_finger · · Score: 1

      It's almost as though they fail to understand that the government is formalised representation of people and their wishes and a necessary control against well resourced organisations that could otherwise abuse and exploit ordinary people.

      What, are you telling me a business isn't interested in giving me a fair deal and value for money and would rather bleed me dry at every opportunity in every way they can? Well I don't believe you and if you'll excuse I'll be over here waiting for my trickle to come down.

      --
      Wanna buy a shirt?
      https://www.redbubble.com/people/stealthfinger/shop?asc=u
    5. Re:Not going to happen by scourfish · · Score: 1

      Regulation is big businesses way to keeping smaller businesses from being able to afford to compete. For example, Amazon and Walmart both support higher minimum laws, because they can afford it, but their smaller competition can't.

    6. Re:Not going to happen by thegarbz · · Score: 1

      Germany here.

      You speak on behalf of most countries there. SIM locking in general is only regulated on purchased phones.

    7. Re:Not going to happen by fred6666 · · Score: 1

      But phones given to you as part of your plan aren't exactly bought.

      It doesn't matter.
      Just because you pay it monthly doesn't morally allow them to SIM-lock it. Why can't you switch carrier and pay of your debt at this one? It's not as if this locking was what insured the loaner that it will get its due.

      Belgium (and Canada) has this right. SIM-locking is banned. It has no utility. The world would be better without SIM-locking.

    8. Re:Not going to happen by bill_mcgonigle · · Score: 1

      You started speaking with ideological possession and got the basic facts wrong because of it. There's a not country on Earth where you get a subsidized phone "for free " and the carriers are not allowed to lock the service on that phone they subsidized, so you can immediately jump over to low-cost carrier with no subsidies.

      Use your mind, don't be a Marxist drone.

      --
      My God, it's Full of Source!
      OUTSIDE_IP=$(dig +short my.ip @outsideip.net)
    9. Re:Not going to happen by bickerdyke · · Score: 1

      Because you agreed to the contract that included paying x for 24 months? Most carriers here would probably even agree to receive that as a lump sum and handover (unlock) your phone earlier, but that depends on the contract details.

      Yes, the world would be better without SIM-Lock, but so would it be without High frequency Stock Trading and Justin Bieber but that alone is no reason to ban those.

      --
      bickerdyke
    10. Re:Not going to happen by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1

      False dichotomy. I have freedom of speech AND my government regulates businesses.

      Meanwhile, you have neither and you have the highest crime rate in the world.

    11. Re: Not going to happen by houghi · · Score: 1

      Every try to start a competent ISP or cell carrier?

      Not me, but a friend of mine has and he is doing pretty well. Was no problem at all. But then giving a lot of money to politicians is called bribery where I live.

      --
      Don't fight for your country, if your country does not fight for you.
    12. Re:Not going to happen by houghi · · Score: 1

      You can still but the 1EUR phone, but you own the phone. If you want to cancel the 24 monthly payments, you will obviously have to pay those 24 months in one time. Officially not to buy your phone, as it is already yours, but that is what they use the money for.

      That also means that after 24 months, you will still be paying for your subscription, yet the phone is already paid. That is when they really start making money, or get you with a new "free" phone.

      So it is perfectly possible to have an unlocked phone and still pay through the nose for the phone for 24 months. TANSTAAFL.

      I just buy my phone and use pre-paid cards. My bill is around 50 EUR per year. That is what many other pay per month.

      --
      Don't fight for your country, if your country does not fight for you.
    13. Re:Not going to happen by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1

      Yeah, like Disney's freedom of speech to use their deep pockets to write laws that revoke our freedom of speech by way of bastardization of intellectual property laws. Or the RIAA/MPAA freedom of speech to stop people from running code that lets them use the things they buy the way they want!

      Oh, wait...

    14. Re:Not going to happen by bickerdyke · · Score: 1

      That's what I do, too. One with pre-paid, the other one with a regular contract but without included phone. (costs about the same)

      But what's right for you and me is not neccessarily the best for others, so I don't want to stop anyone from getting a phone subsidized/financed by their carrier.

      --
      bickerdyke
    15. Re:Not going to happen by Windowser · · Score: 1

      Where I live, simlocking is not allowed. Every phone you buy will be unlocked. Every. Single. One.

      Here in Canada, they have to unlock it for free
      https://www.cbc.ca/news/busine...

      --
      Avoid the MS tax, always buy I.B.M. PC's (I Built-it Myself)
    16. Re:Not going to happen by Impy+the+Impiuos+Imp · · Score: 1

      Your ignorance of this decision is so profound I suspect you are a troll rather than a garden variety narrative pusher. But just in case...

      1. Corporations are "people" for the purpose of bringing them under direct control of the laws, which apply to people, as a way of shielding owners from responsibility (usually fines) for wrongdoing. The company is responsible, not the manager or owner, and has to pay, but they can't proceed past that boundary. This isn't to say they can't be personally responsible for something egregious, e.g. murder, but regulations.

      2. The Supreme Court ruled the Citizens United issue had nothing to do with corporate speech in the sense of corporations are people (the mistake you continue to make years later) but rather The People carry their rights with them wherever they go, including joining groups defined by Congress to create benefits. Congress may not strip their First Amendment rights as the price of joining a Congressionally-defined group called a "corporation" just to gain those benefits (see 1 above.)

      tl;dr The People in corporations maintain their First Amendment rights to speak, and Citizens United has nothing to do with corporations "speaking as people".

      --
      (-1: Post disagrees with my already-settled worldview) is not a valid mod option.
    17. Re:Not going to happen by Impy+the+Impiuos+Imp · · Score: 1

      Why should members of a corporation not have the right to peaceably assemble and petition the government for a redress of grievances, including problems with corporate regulation?

      Even if you buy into sophistry that business-relalated activities are "secondary" rights, complaining to government about how they control it is enshrined just as much as complaining about anything else.

      --
      (-1: Post disagrees with my already-settled worldview) is not a valid mod option.
    18. Re:Not going to happen by Impy+the+Impiuos+Imp · · Score: 1

      How well is life in countries where the government owns all the means of prodiction and doles it out to their families and connected supporters?

      --
      (-1: Post disagrees with my already-settled worldview) is not a valid mod option.
    19. Re:Not going to happen by Solandri · · Score: 1

      Just because you pay it monthly doesn't morally allow them to SIM-lock it. Why can't you switch carrier and pay of your debt at this one? It's not as if this locking was what insured the loaner that it will get its due.

      Yes it does morally allow them to SIM-lock (or IMEI-lock) it. Because until you finish paying it off, it isn't your phone. It's their phone. They can do whatever they want to it. They're just being enough to let you use it before you finish paying for it.

      Try buying an unlocked phone on a monthly payment plan. I've never seen one for sale. No seller is willing to accept the risk that you'll skip out on the payments. Unlike cars and appliances, phones aren't expensive or bulky enough for a cottage industry of repo men to spring up to reclaim the merchandise from delinquent buyers. The lock is what makes the risk acceptable to carriers who still sell phones on a payment plan.

      Now, if a carrier insisted on SIM-locking or refused to unlock a phone that was entirely paid off, I'm sure the FTC and FCC would come down on them like a ton of bricks like they have with IMEI locking.

    20. Re:Not going to happen by jimbo · · Score: 1

      Same in Canada, by law new phones now come unlocked and old locked phones can get unlocked for free.

      However, if you bring an Android phone bought elsewhere to a carrier it'll work fine unless you want to use features like Wi-Fi calling. These "extra features" fully supported by the phones only work if the phone is whitelisted and bought through the carrier, even if exactly same brand+model.
      With iPhones carriers must support features like Wi-fi calling, so "bring your own device" is less problematic for our iPhone friends.

    21. Re:Not going to happen by fred6666 · · Score: 1

      Because you agreed to the contract that included paying x for 24 months?

      How does SIM-locking a device ensure a carrier will get its money back?

    22. Re:Not going to happen by jimbo · · Score: 1

      Yup and I'm very happy with this law. But try getting Wi-Fi calling working with Fido on a BYOD Android phone, even a brand+model supporting it fully if it had been bought from Fido.

      Such features are strictly whitelisted to phones bought from the same carrier only.

    23. Re:Not going to happen by Actually,+I+do+RTFA · · Score: 1

      Please don't say "they" like that's how the nation decided. Something like 38% of people vote for that shit (also, about 38% of people voted for Brexit). Almost an identical number vote against it (and in the US, more than half of voters.)

      But yes, there is a huge group in America that think that government is never the solution.

      --
      Your ad here. Ask me how!
    24. Re:Not going to happen by fred6666 · · Score: 1

      Try buying an unlocked phone on a monthly payment plan. I've never seen one for sale.

      Any phone in Canada is sold like that.

      No seller is willing to accept the risk that you'll skip out on the payments.

      All carriers in Canada are willing to accept the risk. Otherwise, they would make us pay outright for phones.

      The lock is what makes the risk acceptable to carriers who still sell phones on a payment plan.

      No it doesn't. I can skip on payments and sell the phone online to people who will break the lock. And even if they couldn't, they could still use it on the same carrier with another plan.

      Now, if a carrier insisted on SIM-locking or refused to unlock a phone that was entirely paid off

      It was like that in Canada until they passed the law to forbid SIM-locking. Nothing of value has been lost since then.

    25. Re:Not going to happen by nightfire-unique · · Score: 1

      Canada checking in. Same here.

      SIM and bootloader locks should be illegal worldwide.

      --
      A government is a body of people notably ungoverned - AC
    26. Re:Not going to happen by JackieBrown · · Score: 1

      The law was too broad - if you understood anything about the case, you'd know that.

      "In the case, the conservative non-profit organization Citizens United sought to air a film critical of Hillary Clinton and to advertise the film during television broadcasts shortly before the 2008 Democratic primary election in which Clinton was running for U.S. President."

      It was also applied unevenly. Fahrenheit 9/11 was released during the Bush election season.

    27. Re:Not going to happen by bickerdyke · · Score: 1

      Only if it is factored in into the minute price. It prevents switching to a cheaper provider.

      --
      bickerdyke
    28. Re:Not going to happen by cybersquid · · Score: 3, Informative
      When you say "members of a corporation" do you mean the employees? There was never any limit on an employee's rights to assemble nor speak.

      What the Citizen's United ruling did was grant the corporation itself "human" rights.

    29. Re:Not going to happen by Cederic · · Score: 1

      There's a not country on Earth where you get a subsidized phone "for free " and the carriers are not allowed to lock the service on that phone they subsidized

      China.

      Use your mind, don't be a Marxist drone.

      Ironic, given the above. But if you want a very capitalist country: Singapore.

      But I buy phones that are unlocked and pay £16/month for my mobile service. To be fair that only covers me for 2500 minutes of voice, unlimited SMS and unlimited data, so calling premium numbers, internationally or sending MMS messages does cost me a little extra.

      Still a fuck of a lot cheaper than paying £70/month for a 24 month contract just to get a shitty iPhone for no up-front fee. But if someone does do that, it's perfectly legal for them to unlock it and use it on another network anyway. Because I live in a sane country, on Earth.

    30. Re:Not going to happen by fred6666 · · Score: 1

      It doesn't as you can use the phone without a plan, unlock it, or use it with a cheaper plan with the same carrier.

      The only thing that ensures you will pay back your device is that it will hurt your credit rating if you don't. Nothing to do with SIM lock.

    31. Re:Not going to happen by bickerdyke · · Score: 1

      It doesn't as you can use the phone without a plan, unlock it, or use it with a cheaper plan with the same carrier.

      Aehmm.. that's what SIM lock prevents.

      --
      bickerdyke
    32. Re: Not going to happen by astrofurter · · Score: 1

      "vote against government regulation of big businesses"

      It's a culture thing, too. If the judiciary gave a fuck about this issue, I'm _sure_ they could find some interpretation of old Common Law that makes sim locking already illegal. No regulations and bureaucrats required!

      Alas, our masters in the judicial oligarchy are much more concerned about which bathroom ladyboys should use, than about consumer rights.

    33. Re:Not going to happen by Opportunist · · Score: 1

      Odd. Over here we have both. I can speak my mind to my government without having to worry about being jailed. I can even speak my mind to corporations without worrying about them trying to silence me with frivolous lawsuits (because over here, you pay AFTER the legal battle is settled, so yes, you can easily afford to stand your ground legally if you have a solid case and no money, suing someone into silence doesn't work).

      And I still have consumer protection laws.

      --
      We used to have a Bill of Rights. Now, with the rights gone, all we have left is the bill.
    34. Re:Not going to happen by Opportunist · · Score: 1

      Every time I hear trickle-down economy, I kinda picture the mutants in Futurama...

      --
      We used to have a Bill of Rights. Now, with the rights gone, all we have left is the bill.
    35. Re:Not going to happen by Opportunist · · Score: 1

      Do you really believe what you write there?

      I've worked for a couple of clients, some tiny, some huge, some in between, and the smaller the client, the better it was managed. For logical reasons, because every single person really counted. I you have a mom-n-pop shop with 2 owners and maybe 2 employees, one of them slacking is easily detected and even quicker remedied. In a huge corporation, nobody gives a shit. Nobody. From C-Level to floor level. Everyone's goal is to pull the most out of the company with as little effort as one can get away with. I've seen corp branches that can't pull off with 20 people what small businesses can do with 4.

      What keeps large corporations afloat is two things. First, that they're the only ones that can actually handle large contracts. That's, by the way, why toilets in government projects cost like ten times what a toilet really costs. It's not made of gold, but the plumber installing the toilet needs 3 assistants so he can slack and has to drag along 10 managers that contribute nothing meaningful to the plumbing but keep the corporation structure running. So why hire them? Because you're not installing a toilet. You're building a whole building, usually entailing having certifications, clearances and other tidbits that cost a lot of money up front that are only feasible to even have if you have a large enough staff because even if you wanted to, you couldn't accomplish them all yourself in a single lifetime.

      The other reason is bullying power to suppliers. When WalMart says that they want something for a certain price, you deliver. Because it's either you or your rival that gets to supply and thus sell the millions of units you calculated your price for, and one of you will sit on their goods like they're made of lead. When you're a small retailer, the price is dictated to you and you can suck it up or try to source it elsewhere, because nobody gives a shit if you buy from them for the 3-4 units that you'll probably, maybe sell.

      Regulation doesn't even enter the picture here.

      --
      We used to have a Bill of Rights. Now, with the rights gone, all we have left is the bill.
    36. Re:Not going to happen by fred6666 · · Score: 1

      no it doesn't. SIM lock only blocks you from using the device on another carrier... until you unlock it for $5. Even without unlocking it, you can still use the device with another SIM card on the same carrier, or without a SIM card.

    37. Re:Not going to happen by InfiniteBlaze · · Score: 1

      https://cornerstone.lib.mnsu.e... Paragraph 1 of the introduction: "In Citizens United v. Federal Election Commission (FEC), the United States Supreme Court ruled that government could not limit corporate political spending in elections arguing that such limitations would violate the free speech rights of corporations. With this ruling, the Court has set a new standard for corporate First Amendment rights. " Long story short, the court chose to err on the side of caution, which is understandable...but it doesn't change the fact that the brand power of a corporation can have a disproportionate impact on the political process. There's no easy way to solve the problem, and I have no suggestions. I just know that it's wrong to give a company effectively unlimited voice in elections.

  4. Stop complaining by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1

    Stop complaining and buy your own phone instead of going into some kind of financing deal with a carrier.

  5. Breach of Faith by necro81 · · Score: 2

    Don't I recall that, in the United States' auction of 700 MHz bandwidth that eventually became LTE, there was a requirement that whoever owns the bandwidth must allow any compatible device to use it? Wouldn't, say, Verizon using these carrier restrictions constitute a breach of contract or, at the least, a breach of faith with those requirements?

    Or is my recollection wrong, and what would have been a sound proposal in the initial auction rule-making neutered by lobbying pressure?

    1. Re: Breach of Faith by tepples · · Score: 1

      until they pay off their devices

      Is the carrier obligated to push the unlock packet the moment it receives payment in full for the device?

    2. Re:Breach of Faith by necro81 · · Score: 1

      You have a fair point - Google committing a new feature doesn't obligate Verizon to use it. However, my original question still stands: "Wouldn't, say, Verizon using these carrier restrictions constitute a breach of contract or, at the least, a breach of faith with those requirements?"

      The question pre-supposes that a carrier is using these new capabilities, then asks what the ramifications are.

  6. I buy my own phone by Gonoff · · Score: 1

    Will they be able to do this on phones that are not locked?

    Hopefully, this will make buying your own phone as an even safer option to go with the long standing fact that it is cheaper!/p?

    --
    I'll see your Constitution and raise you a Queen.
  7. I'm surprised US carriers by bobstreo · · Score: 1

    don't permanently solder the SIM card to the device.

    Removable SIM sockets are just one more thing the manufacturer has to pay for and one more reason to let the dirty customers actually remove the backplate and install one or two SIMs. /s

    1. Re:I'm surprised US carriers by Merk42 · · Score: 1

      don't permanently solder the SIM card to the device.

      Removable SIM sockets are just one more thing the manufacturer has to pay for and one more reason to let the dirty customers actually remove the backplate and install one or two SIMs. /s

      SIM that isn't physically removable you say? https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/...

      An Embedded-SIM (eSIM) or embedded universal integrated circuit card (eUICC) is a form of programmable SIM that is embedded directly into a device. ... In October 2017, Google unveiled the Pixel 2, which added eSIM support for use with its Project Fi service. The following year, Apple released the iPhone XS and iPhone XR with eSIM support.

    2. Re:I'm surprised US carriers by jacks+smirking+reven · · Score: 1

      Back in the 2G/3G days the CDMA carriers Verizon/Sprint did this very thing. Phones had no SIM slots, just a mobile equipment identifier (MEID) which was hard coded into the phone. Those phones were totally carrier locked with no way to change it. I mean if WiMax hadn't failed they would probably still be doing that but i believe supporting LTE required the use of SIM cards.

  8. Sigh by ledow · · Score: 5, Interesting

    Buy phone outright.

    Refuse to use a carrier that attempts to lock you to their network (anti-competitive practice - they should only be doing it to ensure that you are still paying your debt to them for your financed phone, but even that's dubious).

    Anyway, I thought we were all going to have eSIMs soon?

    To be honest, at this point, my phone is a tablet on a data connection. I couldn't care less about the telecoms company behind it, and don't use it for classical telephony.

    I would actually rather carry around a Wifi-4G (*) box on a month-to-month or PAYG basis and change it if they started messing me about. Then they wouldn't even see my "phone", just a data connection over Wifi / 4G.

    But for sure, I've never owned a network-locked phone and don't ever intend to start with one. Buy phone from phone manufacturer via retail website. Buy SIM from a shop on a network of my choice. The second I can't just change that SIM for another, I'll find another way to connect. If that means a mini-Wifi box for each carrier, I'll take that into account as regards paying them money.

    (*) I have a little Huawei box. It's the size and shape of a half-used bar of soap. It charges by USB. It works for 8 hours at full whack but can also be constantly plugged in. It offers out a 4G SIM connection over Wifi including NAT, firewall, SIP-NAT, etc. I can slip it in my pocket alongside my phone and, because it has a big data allowance, use all the data on it via my phone without having to even take it out of my pocket.

    It travels with me. It's relatively secure (unlike, say, an open Wifi in a pub). It works throughout Europe. I can connect it to a cheap antenna and boost the signal when at home (when it's powered all the time) and the Wifi covers my entire two-storey home.

    Friends can press a button and join it via WPS if they like. It can even piggy-back off another Wifi so you don't have to change your network settings once you'd used up all your data.

    That's my "connection". Yes, it has a SIM card. Yes, it could be "locked" to the network (it's not - I bought it entirely separately to the multiple SIMs inside it that I switch to if I burn through the data). But it's cheap enough to be throwaway even if they did lock it. One of those and then change the whole thing for another network if they start locking me in and I want to move.

    And then they never get on my phone, my phone doesn't even need a SIM inside it, I can use any phone I like, and I've got that barrier between what they are capable of running code on (even via a SIM smartcard) and what they are not.

    I'd honestly rather do that - both my phone and that box slip lovely into a single pocket with room to spare and can "charge" off each other's cables - than carry a locked phone.

    Hell, I'd carry a USB dongle and you could probably power a USB-4G dongle direct off a phone nowadays (USB-C and all that) and cut out the Wifi and charging portion. New network, new dongle, off you go.

    1. Re:Sigh by nightfire-unique · · Score: 1

      Know what's easier than all of that?

      "Earning my vote depends on you outlawing carrier locking."

      We did this in Canada a few years ago, and life became much simpler. You can no longer legally sell a phone in Canada that has a carrier lock enabled, unless the unlock code is provided at the time of sale.

      We pay so much for our governments. Why not use them to our advantage?

      --
      A government is a body of people notably ungoverned - AC
    2. Re:Sigh by ledow · · Score: 2

      Because that relies on at least 50% of the population understanding such an issue, then the one person they vote into power, by electing dozens of local representatives with differing views, actually caring the same about it and making it happen via policy without making worse things happen elsewhere that you don't want.

      It's, quite simply, ridiculous to expect voting to affect such things.

      "Not buying that shit" works a million times better, and talks directly to the people implementing such features.

    3. Re:Sigh by sacrilicious · · Score: 1

      Very interesting setup you describe. What tablet do you like, and what OS do you run on it?

      --
      - First they ignore you, then they laugh at you, then ???, then profit.
    4. Re:Sigh by nightfire-unique · · Score: 1

      I mean, evidence would suggest you're wrong. :p

      We actually, literally voted for people who got the law passed in Canada. It clearly can be done.

      --
      A government is a body of people notably ungoverned - AC
  9. Re: Happy Friday From The Golden Girls! by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 5, Funny

    Smithers who is that man?

  10. Re:wait by johnsie · · Score: 5, Informative

    If you think Android is about "Freedom" then you haven't visited https://myactivity.google.com/ If anything Google is using those to devices to collect a tonne of data about people.

  11. Locking Personally Owned Phones by BECoole · · Score: 1

    I don't know how it works elsewhere, but in my part of the USA, carriers lock the phone for 1 year when you sign up with their service. It's not simply one year, it's one year of PAID service. Even with Straight Talk using the PayGo method on your personally owned phone, you have to pay for 12 months of service before you can go to another carrier.

    1. Re: Locking Personally Owned Phones by BECoole · · Score: 1

      What I'm saying is that even if you don't think you have a contract, you are locked into the carrier.

    2. Re: Locking Personally Owned Phones by BECoole · · Score: 1

      I did. The phone got locked.

  12. Better solution? by sjbe · · Score: 3, Insightful

    I love how they were able to auction off thin air.

    You have a better solution to the tragedy of the commons?

    1. Re:Better solution? by drinkypoo · · Score: 1

      You have a better solution to the tragedy of the commons?

      Yeah, UWB. Too bad if you start using UWB, you have to stop using all other kinds of radio, though.

      --
      "You're right," Fisheye says. "I should have set it on 'whip' or 'chop.'"
  13. Re:wait by stealth_finger · · Score: 2

    Open source in general maybe but android and google? Not for a long time.

    --
    Wanna buy a shirt?
    https://www.redbubble.com/people/stealthfinger/shop?asc=u
  14. Re:Quiche? by stealth_finger · · Score: 1

    I'm just wondering what desert they're going to name Android Q.

    Give Quiche a chance.

    --
    Wanna buy a shirt?
    https://www.redbubble.com/people/stealthfinger/shop?asc=u
  15. Re: Happy Friday From The Golden Girls! by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 2, Funny

    He's one of your fork-and-spoon operators from sector 7-G, sir.

  16. 911 calls by Registered+Coward+v2 · · Score: 4, Informative

    Thankfully, in both cases, emergency phone calls will still work as expected, regardless of any restrictions on the particular SIM cards in your phone. In the US, cell phone companies are required by the FCC to connect any 911 call on a phone that connects to its tower. You do not have to have any service, or even a SIM card, as long as your phone can connect. That's why some companies advertise those "911 emergency phones" knowing they must work; and hoping people don't realize any old cell phone will do the same. Got a few years old phone you no longer use? Keep it charged and you have a 911 only phone.

    --
    I'm a consultant - I convert gibberish into cash-flow.
  17. Re: Happy Friday From The Golden Girls! by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 2, Funny

    Simpson, eh? New man?

  18. Re:Living in the past by Luckyo · · Score: 1

    World is a big place.

  19. Re:Quiche? by AmiMoJo · · Score: 1

    Give Quorn a chance.

    --
    const int one = 65536; (Silvermoon, Texture.cs)
    SJW, n: "Someone I don't like, and by the way I'm a fuckwit" - AC
  20. Holding a phone before buying it by tepples · · Score: 1

    unlocked and carrier-agnostic phones are readily available on Amazon on other online merchants.

    How can someone looking to buy a phone from an online merchant get a feel for how the phone will feel in his or her hand?

    1. Re:Holding a phone before buying it by Shaitan · · Score: 1

      The same way they buy a TV. They go to the storefronts and check out the new phones, then go buy the phone online.

    2. Re:Holding a phone before buying it by Opportunist · · Score: 2

      As stated above, go to the shop, get an idea of the look and feel, then ask for an unlocked phone. If they can't provide one, one lost sale for them, one more that goes to the big river.

      --
      We used to have a Bill of Rights. Now, with the rights gone, all we have left is the bill.
    3. Re:Holding a phone before buying it by JackieBrown · · Score: 1

      How can someone looking to buy a phone from an online merchant get a feel for how the phone will feel in his or her hand?

      The same way you do it for almost anything you buy online..

    4. Re:Holding a phone before buying it by tepples · · Score: 1

      How can someone looking to buy a [product] from an online merchant get a feel for how the [product] will feel in his or her hand?

      The same way you do it for almost anything you buy online..

      Namely? (And preferably without risking a ban for abusing returns.)

    5. Re:Holding a phone before buying it by JackieBrown · · Score: 1

      Go to a brick and motor store first

  21. With a threat of a restocking fee by tepples · · Score: 1

    The advantage of buying a locked phone is that you get to buy a phone in person. In turn, the advantage of buying a phone in person is not having to pay a restocking fee and round-trip shipping cost should you end up deciding that a phone purchased online doesn't suit you.

  22. Amazon is not a showroom by tepples · · Score: 1

    Buy phone outright.

    Which U.S. electronics showroom chains sell major brand phones outright? Amazon is not a showroom.

    Buy phone from phone manufacturer via retail website.

    How would someone going this route determine a phone's hand-fit?

    1. Re:Amazon is not a showroom by ledow · · Score: 1

      Who the hell goes to a showroom to buy a phone?

      And let me introduce you to what the entire world learned 20 years ago and thus killed retail:

      You go to the shop.
      You pick up the phone.
      You get a free demo.
      You say "Thanks, I'll think about it."
      You consider it at home and order the phone from the supplier of your choice.

      Alternatively, you order it, try it out for 30 days, return it if you're not happy with it.

      Same for any white-goods (washing machines, dryers, kitchen appliances, etc.), phones, laptops, printers, etc. and has been forever. Hell, clothes. I returned a garden spade once because it was just useless.

      Know who has one of the best returns processes that I've ever seen? Amazon.

      Tip #2: Don't buy any phone that one of your friends / work colleagues doesn't already have. Because you can guarantee they are worthless because nobody else uses them. Friends also give free demos, real-world experience, no sales-spiel and no hard-sell.

      (Notice: This also means that you don't buy the new iPhone whatever until you've actually touched it, experienced it outside of a sales-spiel - with cheerleading first-day actors, etc. - been able to use it, been made aware of any problems with it, and been able to actually purchase it without queuing up).

      Honestly...

    2. Re:Amazon is not a showroom by tepples · · Score: 1

      Tip #2: Don't buy any phone that one of your friends / work colleagues doesn't already have.

      I see two practical problems with applying tip #2. If everybody followed tip #2, nobody would queue for launch. Then how would new products enter the market in the first place? Unless I'm missing something, each customer would end up having to know someone who (knows someone who)^n works for the manufacturer.

      In addition, for a lot of people such as myself, most of their social life is online, and either they work from home or their work colleagues share few of their interests. How do they go about finding relevant local friends?

  23. Total garbage by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1

    Luckily this is illegal for carriers to actually implement in my country one of the few good laws here... That being said you would think that android is in a strong enough position to prevent this sort of thing and tell the carriers to get lost. Instead, they are making it easy.

  24. Device Personalization standards by spinitch · · Score: 1

    Device personalization in cellular standards and provide flexibility. Some carriers abuse with restrictions but that is not a device OEM decision.

  25. Not a solution by sjbe · · Score: 3, Insightful

    Yeah, UWB. Too bad if you start using UWB, you have to stop using all other kinds of radio, though.

    So A) it's not a solution because it's potentially incompatible and B) it's not a solution because wireless spectrum remains a finite public good no matter how you utilize the spectrum. UWB might make the limited spectrum go further but it doesn't solve the core problem of interference due to unregulated overuse.

    1. Re:Not a solution by Impy+the+Impiuos+Imp · · Score: 1

      Your choices seem to be government control vs. free for all. Although we ar well past this, another choice was the radio patent owners owned the airwaves and could have sold it off.

      That's pretty much what financially covetous government is doing now anyway.

      Heheh the money from the auctions doesn't even go to cover debt spending from years ago, but rather is spend immediately on top of ongoing borrowing.

      --
      (-1: Post disagrees with my already-settled worldview) is not a valid mod option.
  26. Re: wait by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1

    I think the future will see a separation of the network and the computer again. Instead of a phone on which you can run applications, there will be computers on which you can run phone apps, but without a tight coupling to the mobile networks. Voice communication is in decline, and modern mobile network standards are application agnostic anyway. LTE doesn't have dedicated circuit switched voice capability. The "phone" part of a future mobile computer will no longer define it. The mobile computer will separate from the phone number, and that will free it from the stranglehold of the mobile networks, as they become arbitrarily interchangeable. The phone number is what's holding mobile computing back.

  27. Re: wait by b0s0z0ku · · Score: 1

    Moto devices not bought from a carrier can not only be rooted, but have the factory's blessing to unlock the bootloader and install custom firmware.

  28. Remember, it's their phone ... by Rambo+Tribble · · Score: 1

    ... and you only really have permission to pay for it.

  29. My last carrier phone was an HTC Tilt 2 by p51d007 · · Score: 1

    I haven't bought a carrier phone since!

  30. Re:wait by chuckugly · · Score: 1

    It is, OEMs are the users.

  31. You people and your 'smartphones'.. by Rick+Schumann · · Score: 1

    You make me roll my eyes in disbelief.

  32. Re: wait by Rob+Y. · · Score: 1

    For the time being. There are fewer and fewer manufacturers that allow bootloader unlocking. If and when those vendors become marginalized to the point that their mobile device businesses are no longer sustainable, then the party's over. Maybe that won't happen, but didn't Huawei recently pull back on bootloader unlocks?

    --
    Posted from my Android phone. Oh, I can change this? There, that's better...
  33. Lets skip to the underlying concern by plague911 · · Score: 1

    Individuals who are using ATT , Verizon, or Sprint are buying expensive phones they think are subsidized by the carrier (hit you just pay way more on your bill) and than want to move to another carrier.

    The answer is don't. Don't even start on any one of them. Excluding some rather specific edge cases, the major carriers are all ripping you off horribly. I just did a quick search and the cheapest plan Verizon is offering is $35/month for 3GB. I am paying $25/month for 10GB. To match my usage I would have to pay $65. What are you fools tossing money away for?

    1. Re:Lets skip to the underlying concern by EdZep · · Score: 1

      Country?
      Carrier?
      Plan?

      In the USA, I have been pretty satisfied with Cricket, $55 (after monthly $5 auto-pay discount) for 22GB. But, I might be able to live with 10 or 12 GB of high speed data.

    2. Re:Lets skip to the underlying concern by plague911 · · Score: 1

      US/Mintpcs (T-Mobile)/12 GB per month for a year at $300

  34. Re:BOOOOO by wed128 · · Score: 1

    How does Elon Musk have anything to do with this?

  35. Open Source -- LineageOS by gavron · · Score: 1

    If you choose to run a carrier-provided version of Android, you can live with these restrictions.

    If you choose to download and run the open source LineageOS (formerly CyanogenMod) you can live without these restrictions.

    This is the power of open source. YOU, the OWNER of the device, can CHOOSE what you like.*

    Ehud Gavron
    Tucson AZ
    One Plus 1 - LineageOS 15
    MotoG4 - LineageOS 15
    Nexus 7 - LineageOS 15

    * You should also choose an unlocked bootloader device so you can run whatever you want on it. You can pay less, of course, but then you get less.

  36. We fought long in hard in Canada by nightfire-unique · · Score: 1

    We fought long and hard in Canada to make carrier locking illegal. The past is now an old nightmare.

    If your country doesn't outlaw SIM / carrier locking, call your representative and tell them earning your vote depends on them taking action. Make it an important point.

    However, a lesser known, but more important issue is actually bootloader locking. Mention this as well, even if it's difficult to explain. Hopefully right-to-repair legislation will be passed in Canada and the US making anti-ownership tactics illegal, but until then, we need to raise awareness.

    No root? Device may not be legally sold, imported, or manufactured. We can win this fight!

    --
    A government is a body of people notably ungoverned - AC
  37. Unlock rate limit for high-volume subscribers by tepples · · Score: 1

    there is a low number limit of how many devices can be unlocked per account in a calendar year.

    How low is this limit, and does it vary between individual and business account types? Say a business employs a few dozen field technicians, buying a device and service for each technician, and keeps all the receipts. A year later, once the loan is paid off, the business wants to expand its service into an area where the carrier fails to offer satisfactory coverage. Is the limit low enough to keep the business from requesting that all the devices be unlocked then?

  38. The opposite is true. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1

    There's a whole boatload of small Chinese manufacturers, trying to fulfill your every wish, to get big.
    People stupidly say MediaTek devices suck... but fact is that they are both more than fast enough today *and* can be flashed, even if they are completely bricked!
    On my BV6000, I just flipped a switch in the settings to unlock the bootloader, as per Blackview instructions, and flash whatever the fuck I want.
    Oh, and they themselves put a video on YouTube on how to completely disassemble and reassemble the thing! That instantly gets them a lot of credit from me!

    You just have to look beyond theain stream players, and you'll find a world of wonderful things you never thought could exist.

  39. Literally everyone does this in Germany. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1

    I hardly ever see anyone with anything but a prepaid SIM. And usually the first thing they or somebody else says then, is "Dude, you're paying waay too much. Get a prepaid deal!" or "LOL, he's stupid!".

  40. Never Forget by Deliveranc3 · · Score: 1

    These fuckers are the enemy, they take our money to make their networks then exploit and punish us all for money.

    They use dirty tactics to hurt the honest carriers.

    Please move to a smaller, honest carrier. Vote with your wallet it makes a huge difference.

  41. Fuck you, Google by astrofurter · · Score: 1

    Big Brother Google sure does hate freedom.

    Let's everyone say it together now:

    Fuck you, Google!

  42. Re: wait by jouassou · · Score: 1

    Yup. Personally I have a Google-free Android phone for this reason. I can recommend such a setup to some people, if you're willing to live with a somewhat "crippled" smartphone, since it means going without Google Play Store. F-droid covers some needs, and there's Amazon Store and Yalp if you're desperate for a specific proprietary app, but it doesn't work for everyone.
    But to most family and friends, I now just recommend getting an iPhone for the best out-of-the-box privacy setup. Depending on where the Android market is heading, I might well be be buying my first iPhone myself soon. (Depends on e.g. if a replacement for CopperheadOS surfaces after the recent hostile takeover, and whether the phones themselves will be locked down more tightly so you can't root and flash them.)
    I don't trust having anything from Google on my phone after I found out that Google Maps was tracking my movement in the background for several months that I never opened the app. I know this because I was trying out an OpenStreetMaps-based competitor, and after a few months, I started getting popups from Google Maps asking me to rate restaurants and places that I had visited recently (including a few places I had just been to for the first time)...

  43. Traffic Prioritization by tmh+-+The+Mad+Hacker · · Score: 1

    I'm a long-time user of cheap MVNOs (mostly plan-less), but one of the challenges of this is that it seems that these days, the major carriers prioritize their name-brand traffic over other traffic. Thus, depending on the time and place, my data service can be so poor as to be unusable (not just slow -- slow enough that things break), while others using the same towers (but paying the asking price) are fine.

    Most of the time it's not that big a deal, because I'm bandwidth-conscious and don't do much that's demanding, but as I prepare for a big trip on which I will need to do *all* my work on the go and be available during the day, this becomes more of a concern to me.