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US Companies Are Moving Tech Jobs To Canada Rather Than Deal With Trump's Immigration Policies, Report Says (recode.net)
US companies are going to keep hiring foreign tech workers, even as the Trump administration makes doing so more difficult. For a number of US companies that means expanding their operations in Canada, where hiring foreign nationals is much easier. From a report: Demand for international workers remained high this year, according to a new Envoy Global survey of more than 400 US hiring professionals, who represent big and small US companies and have all had experience hiring foreign employees. Some 80 percent of employers expect their foreign worker headcount to either increase or stay the same in 2019, according to Envoy, which helps US companies navigate immigration laws. That tracks with US government immigration data, which shows a growing number of applicants for high-skilled tech visas, known as H-1Bs, despite stricter policies toward immigration. H-1B recipients are all backed by US companies that say they are in need of specialized labor that isn't readily available in the US -- which, in practice, includes a lot of tech workers. Major US tech companies, including Google, Facebook, and Amazon, have all been advocating for quicker and more generous high-skilled immigration policies. To do so they've increased lobbying spending on immigration.
Why hire Americans anyway? Competition drives the weak out in a myriad of ways.
That's been going on for some time.
Since the Bush years we often had to deal with tech seminars and conferences where they were moved out of the U.S. because many of the participants couldn't deal with U.S. Customs and Border enforcement. If you weren't a white European you were basically treated like shit and assumed to be a terrorist unless you could prove otherwise.
Will screw Americans any which way they can.
Cmon - you hate trump, this is a great time to rejoice in a few shitty companies outsourcing.
Either they are cost cutting, or they have to deal with record low unemployment. Go figure.
Also, the corporate tax rate in Canada is very competitive, and health care premiums are much, much lower thanks to universal single-payer health care. Plus, if your income is in USD but your salaries are in CAD, you get a nice little boost.
I know it's hip & trendy to blame Trump for everything under the sun, these movements have been happening for longer than he has been in office. Ex: https://www.geekwire.com/2016/trudeau-speak-opening-microsoft-vancouver-facility/
Seems like, if companies have a lot of demand for workers, and it's harder to reign in foreign workers, that it's good news for legal U.S. workers already here...
Some things may be moving to Canada but even the summary sure made it look as if the tech market in the U.S. was still growing also. Which you'd honestly expect.
"There is more worth loving than we have strength to love." - Brian Jay Stanley
I've lost jobs to Canadian outsourcing because companies didn't want to deal with our screwed up healthcare system. One of the worst/best was when a US based insurance company moved it's call center operations to Canada.
That said, if this really is just H1-Bs shifting to Canada I find it really hard to care. I couldn't have gotten those jobs anyway and to be blunt I see very, very little of the benefits from immigration here in America. Without robust set of programs to take advantage of those economic wealth generated it's all just money going to the top. Even small businesses can be hurt since they're left to compete with companies that can hire engineers for less money (though it's debatable whether wage depression brought on by the influx of cheap labor offsets that).
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One problem is that there is no shortage of highly skilled workers in the U.S., only a shortage of highly skilled workers who will take a job at minimum wage!
And the longer we have Traitor Trump and his criminal republican party screwing things up here, the better a move to Canada looks!
If you don't like the law, get it changed.
Don't create bogus "sanctuary cities".
How are you going to like it when "2nd Amendment sanctuaries" ignore your fucking gun control laws?
It's already starting - and "progressives" are the side that thinks "Gunz is skeeeery!"
Or maybe you "progressive" techies like your job security being undermined by cheap illegal immigration or lax H1B visas?
Oh, NOW you're singing a different tune? Imagine that!
in another country than it is to hire developers older than 40 and pay them for their skills??
The title implies that tech companies are not dealing with the immigration policies. The summary says that they are dealing with them, and dealing with them so well that they are hiring equal or greater numbers of foreign workers. Which is it?
Let's look at the article and see:
“Due to a shortage of green cards for workers, many employees find themselves stuck in an immigration process lasting more than a decade. These employees must repeatedly renew their temporary work visas..."
That problem has existed for >20 years. Much of the article reads the same way:
...there aren’t enough skilled Americans...
...US companies are hiring outside the US...
Most of this could have been written in 1995 and nothing would sound different.
But this is slightly different:
Recent immigration data shows the US is issuing fewer total visas to these types of workers than in previous years. This is a result of an executive order Trump issued...
This quote links to an article showing that only 75% of H-1B visa applications are being accepted. But that conflicts with the statement
Some GOOD news:
Take a look at the chart in the article showing which companies are getting their Visa's rejected. Microsoft, Amazon, Google -- 99% acceptance. Tata consulting: 78%. Accenture: 69%. Good riddance! Companies like Tata and Accenture are the real abusers of H1-B. These firms just hire as many H1-B applicants as they possibly can, and then find jobs for them later by promising other companies they can do the same job for less, then offshoring the work later. That's a garbage business model and if that's the only companies having trouble than good riddance!
Leaving the country is easy when the gov't comes tromping thru the door every year wanting 21% of your profits. Lets fix it, by abolishing the prosperity-killing income taxes. In 1963, with the income taxes only 50 years old at the time, JFK said, "“The largest single barrier to full employment of our manpower and resources and to a higher rate of economic growth is the unrealistically heavy drag of federal income taxes on private purchasing power, initiative and incentive.” John F. Kennedy, Jan. 24, 1963 " He was right.
The FairTax is a consumption tax that, if enacted, calls for the complete repeal of all income taxes - personal, corporate, capital gains, alternative minimum, gift, estate, self-employment, etc. All of 'em. It replaces them with a consumption tax on new items sold at retail, and services, while giving every legal resident enough money every month in advance, to be able to pay the FairTax on the person's purchases every month up to the poverty level. Poverty level for a single person is about $12K / yr, so every month, that person would get enough money to pay the FairTax on $1K of spending.
How's that help this? The little thing about repealing the corporate income tax would have those companies, and all the rest of the companies on the planet at least WANTING to move their operations to the USA where they could operate without having their profits stolen by the gov't. Move to Canada? Canada will come tromping thru the door and steal a part of their profits via corporate income taxes. So will pretty much everywhere else in the world. The USA would stand alone in NOT stealing from either its businesses or its people. Nobody would owe a dime of taxes from the start, they would be able to regulate how much tax they pay by regulating how much new goods and services they buy. Don't want to pay taxes on a new car? Buy a somewhat used car. No taxes on the used car. No taxes on the used (existing) house, only taxes if you build a new house. No taxes on the money you make and use for savings, tuition (tuition is treated as an investment), money used to pay your state taxes, car license fees, buying stocks and bonds (again, and investment), and so forth.
Bottom line is that the USA would be the place to make the biggest profit, because of the lack of at least the Federal gov't tromping thru the door to steal a portion of the business' profits each year. Companies stay. More companies come. Jobs stay. More jobs come. That's what we want, and killing the income taxes dead is the way to do it.
...instead of shifting around cheap labor from the third world for the benefit of large multinational corporations?
How dare he!
It's an easy way to "lay off" personnel without actually having to pay severance, the tax rate is better, and the employees are cheaper. The only link this has to immigration is that the new laws make it difficult to bus in slave labor for ridiculous savings.
As a Canadian working many years as a software developer, while I'm sure examples can be found where this is happening, 99% of the work is still in the U.S. And U.S. employers, as much as they like to complain they cannot find enough developers, are reluctant if not outright 100% against hiring people working in Canada, even with the CAD USD difference.
Just try and convince a hiring manager that you'll get the work done from Canada while the company is U.S. based! I've tried several hundreds of times over the last few decades.
Unless you're willing to move down to the U.S. and be sitting in an office chair at their location 9-5 M-F, you'll never get a call back from HR or the hiring manager.
Import tariffs on software and remote labor.
the salaries they have to pay to have the best.
So they can't import cheap ass Indians by the gross anymore so they will go to Canada where they can...
Corporatism != Free Market
H-1B recipients are all backed by US companies that say they are in need of specialized labor that isn't readily available in the US
So we do not have the skills or the labor market is tight. But then here's this from the other day on slashdot:
U.S. Students Have Achieved World Domination in Computer Science Skills -- For Now
Therefore we have higher skills in the US. So it is about the labor market, and especially the ability to pay foreign workers much less and tie them to their jobs by threats of deportation. Instead of training more students here and shuffling older IT staff off the books.
Blame the traitorous companies that are selling the US out. Trump cares about the US and workers, Democrats and big companies don't. Traitors.
From the article:
"Its Global Skills Strategy program — Canada’s equivalent to the H-1B — expedites the immigration process for high-skilled workers to just two weeks or less. Last year, the program brought in more than 12,000 workers, approving 95 percent of applicants. A quarter of those came from India and another quarter came from the US."
I propose we follow the Canadian model and cap H1-B's at 12,000 annually.
Seems like, if companies have a lot of demand for workers, and it's harder to reign in foreign workers, that it's good news for legal U.S. workers already here...
It "seems" that way, but it actually isn't. What is actually good for legal US workers is if more legal US workers actually get hired.
And this story is saying companies they're not really being hired. Companies still prefer foreign workers. The story is suggesting companies would rather setup shop outside the country than hiring American.
You also have to consider the ripple or trickle down effects. When a foreign worker is hired and moves to the US, they're gonna be spending their pay check in the US to buy food, clothes, services, etc. Those are jobs for legal American workers. When companies setup shop outside the country, those foreign workers are no longer need to move to the US, which in turn means less jobs for local Americans.
We can then get H1B's and abuse the system.
[John]
Shit better not happen!
Just like how the R's stole money from the middle class with the tax code change. If you don't understand that both sides do this shit, you are a fucking moron. But going by what you wrote, yeah, you are a fucking moron.
Make it illegal for Financial, Medical and personally identifiable information to leave US borders. Including "remote display of that information".
Once that's done, 99.99% of outsourcing has to die.
No more remote call centers, programming, etc.
Don't let the door hit you on the way out.
If they are presumably moving people from India, I would think they could plop them down in Mexico and it would be a lot cheaper. They could...
pay them less that in US or Canada but more than India
have them in the same time zone
only be a few hours or less away by air
minimal employment laws compared to US/Canada
dangle US employment as a carrot
There are probably other benefits I'm not even thinking of.
Ninjas don't carry tic tacs
...illegally crossed the border into Canada? Sauce for the goose?
And their children do not need education, and they do not bring their relatives that need medical care, and they do not drive up housing costs...yaddah yaddah yaddah
Woohooo, bye bye h1bs, nice knowing you.
The Repugs used to be for the middle class, i.e. we won't tax you to hell like the Dems. But that stopped with the drug-cartel giveaway. But the commoners will keep fighting over whose team is better, while the top laugh all the way to the bank and piss on the yet-to-be-born children of America.
And they are idiots.
I'm more than happy to let Canada win the race to the bottom. The "disaster" of big west coast tech employers having to *gasp* hire US citizens hasn't kept them from expanding.
When I was at Amazon, it was amazing how fast the story on my team switched from "we'd be happy to hire US citizens, we just can't find qualified people" to "we hired 3 US citizens this quarter, no problem" when we needed 3 people who could apply for top secret clearance. Amazing coincidence, really, how those previously non-existent qualified US workers suddenly appeared from nowhere when it became a benefit to the company.
Socialism: a lie told by totalitarians and believed by fools.
Even for us citizens the prospects look better in Canada.
Then the H1B to green card transition became hard, the waiting lists got longer, and USA was losing its charm for the elite graduates. At the same time, Indian economy boomed, these grads were getting great career prospects back at home. The stream of resumes with IIT BTech has dwindled to nearly nothing.
Let Canada keep them. When USCompanies realize most of them are duds, it will be Canada's problem, bot ours.
sed -e 's/Chuck Norris/Rajnikant/g' joke > fact
Specialized my ass
1. Nice lie. It's not "get rid of CAFE standards". It's "don't price the working class out of cars". Physics is a bitch, and she doesn't care about your green agenda.
2. It's not about the trade balance; it's about unfair competition and dumping. The Chinese were deliberately, and successfully, dumping to destroy the US steel industry. Jobs are the campaign slogan, but the real problem is national security. Without domestic steel production, our entire economy is completely vulnerable to the Chinese Navy. Just like China and electric vehicles: with only a trivial petroleum reserve, they realize their economy is completely vulnerable to the US Navy or Lloyds shutting down their economy.
3. Keep out the damn illegals. You keep lying and lying and lying, but the republicans are tired of the left-wing importing illegals in the hope of getting more voters. Stop lying. It's not about immigration, it's about illegals. In fact, when you narrow down to groups, it's the progressives who are being hurt the worst, and most aware of the damages from H1B abuses.
It's sad that we're going to suffer batshit insane because so many people like you are incapable of critical thought and unwilling to consider the geopolitical context or listen to your neighbors.
No one cares about your time working in the warehouse fatboy.
I can guarantee you I'd weigh a lot less if I had worked at the warehouse!
Socialism: a lie told by totalitarians and believed by fools.
Theory: "We want the very best developers and engineers from around the world to supercharge the American economy!"
Reality: "Hey, my cousin Sanjay knows Sharepoint. Let's write the job rec so narrowly tailored that we can get him into the country on an H-1B."
Lawrence Person (lawrencepersonh@gmailh.com (remove all "h"s to mail)
http://www.lawrenceperson.com/
It's not outsourcing if they're directly hiring the employees, which this seems to describe. Outsourcing is when you hire another company to do the work for you, and that doesn't mean the company you hired is in another country (typically that is referred to as offshoring in the business world.)
Most outsourcing ends up being domestic. For example, many companies outsource their supply chain management to UPS rather than hire their own supply chain management staff. Often outsourcing (and even offshoring) can cost more than insourcing, but the management may not want to go through the hassle of finding the talent for it and waiting for process flows to develop before things are done efficiently, and then having yet another department to deal with.
You think Amazon only sells consumer goods. That's sort of cute. Uninformed, but sort of cute.
deleting the extra space after periods so i can stay relevant, yeah.
"H-1B recipients are all backed by US companies that say they are in need of specialized labor that isn't readily available in the US"
So, whenever US tech companies each fire, all of their IT division (US) workers altogether & replace all of them w/ H-1B workers altogether, they are doing it because they cannot find IT workers in the US???
Just because you are lazy and born of an intellectually retarded peoples doesnâ(TM)t give you a right to judge.
No go get your shine box, boy. Run, I donâ(TM)t have all day, dumbkaupf
If not, then they were never "US companies" to begin with.
Good riddance.
You are still full of crap.
Canadians have been getting pissed off over this the last few years under Trudeau because it's expanded. A company is more likely to claim that they can't find anyone to work a PT job in a fast food joint and then hire a TFW(temporary foreign worker) to cover it, but it hasn't stopped companies that hire skilled trades from pulling the same stuff, or banks doing the same. The problem is that while the Trudeau government likes to claim "unemployment historic lows!" and all the rest, wages have entered a stagflation phase with the cost of goods going up.
The Trudeau government also doesn't like to point out that the jobs mostly being created are low wage service jobs either. Or that a lot of people are working 2-4 PT jobs just to make ends meet. Pretty easy to figure out why substance abuse, theft and so on is going through the roof isn't it. Even things 5 years ago that were uncommon like entering a dwelling house with a person inside were rare crimes in Canada, simply because the law punishes "entry on a B&E with a person inside" harshly. Now? There are cities where 70% of entries are with a person inside, because robbery is also a motive.
Om, nomnomnom...
"Foreign Workers" means people foreign to Canada. The Great White North has an open borders policy to accept workers from places like India. No one is talking about Canadian citizens travelling to the U.S. for work here.
Uh Huh....suuuure. Whateva you say, Russian penis breath.
Back in the 50s, 60s, and 70s, Canada was consider the prime outsourcer for American white collar work. Lots of benefits to this such such as having the same time zone or close to it, cultural similarities, and a lack of a language barrier (eh?).
And honestly, I'm ok with that. I'd like to support countries that are similar in values, culture, politics, and legal systems. Outsourcing work to the lowest bidders ends up supporting at best cronyism and bribery. And at worst totalitarian regimes.
Yeah, of course now that you're here close the borders.
"Fuck you, I got mine!"
Because nothing was ever bad or getting worse under the right wing party? Because the PM personally sets wage policy for fry cooks?
Shit, you can blame Trudeau for winter being cold and summer being hot, space being dark and electrons repelling each other by that standard.
I need someone in the US to adopt a Canadian in his 40's. I want the hell out of here.
I'd be happiest in a small poor city in the south, seriously. Help
the ones I know work the same hours as the Americans. Rather, it's about keeping wages down and about not having to pay to train. And not just the training the business does. Don't forget that the US has been slashing funding to education for decades. We couldn't get away with that if we didn't have a supply of trained people.
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"When a foreign worker is hired and moves to the US, they're gonna be spending their pay check in the US to buy food, clothes, services, etc."
Minimally. The countries which export these workers run investment programs to give better returns from home. Meaning a huge chunk of their salaries get funneled directly out the US. And then of course there are the workers who send money back to their families. We really shouldn't allow visa workers either option.
Not from where I'm sitting. We hire all the Americans we can find, but we just can't find enough who can meet our requirements. We pay very well, have great benefits, etc. Doesn't matter. It's not a problem of finding people willing to work, it's a problem of finding people who can do the job. The only way to get enough good people is to hire globally. If that means more teams have to be based outside of the US, so be it.
If the process continues for long enough that our teams are primarily based outside of the US, then that will mean that Americans who want those jobs will have to move out of the country to get them. Assuming the other countries don't decide to reciprocate on the visa policies... if they do, then the Americans will just be SOL.
Note to ACs: I usually delete AC replies without reading them. If you want to talk to me, log in.
So, you live in California, New York, IL?
The rest of the country got a tax cut, actually you did as well, what paid for the tax cut is no longer allowing your city/state to hijack income tax dollars. Since your state/city still hasn't fixed their taxes to no longer attempt to hijack income tax from the feds you should take the issue up with them. They'll just have to cut costs/programs or increase sales/gross receipt taxes instead of pilfering income taxes.
Really that is the best thing. People in New York shouldn't get out of paying their fair share of federal income tax which should look just like someone in Alabama with the same income. That is one step. The next is wealthy areas incorporating separately so their income taxes go entirely to their schools and rob poor neighborhoods of their funding.
Because nothing was ever bad or getting worse under the right wing party? Because the PM personally sets wage policy for fry cooks?
I didn't know that Harper was Trudeau Sr., who implemented wage and price controls. And then experienced massive nationwide wildcat strikes. FYI, provinces are responsible for hourly wages these days, and it was Wynne(Ontario Liberals), who tried to set the wage policy for fry cooks. That was after her brilliant plan to jump the min.wage from 12/hr to 15/hr in 2 years.
Shit, you can blame Trudeau for winter being cold and summer being hot, space being dark and electrons repelling each other by that standard.
I can blame Trudeau's plan to implement a carbon tax, and bankrupting people over it. But what do I know? Because the same architect who did the same in Ontario - which has killed it's carbon tax was G.M. Butts. The same asshole who was Trudeau Jr's bestest buddy in the whole world, until the SNC-Lavalin scandal broke and he left to "spend more time with his family" was the same architect behind the federal Liberals plan.
Om, nomnomnom...
Funny....My taxes went down due to the tax cuts, and I"m firmly middle class.
Light travels faster than sound. This is why some people appear bright until you hear them speak.........
The data must flow.
-- Tigger warning: This post may contain tiggers! --
I wouldn't go that far. Maybe put a limit on the amount of money they can send back PER year.
Funny, every news article I've read says that taxes for the middle class have gone up across the board. From property tax to school taxes.
Funny, my taxes went up, and I'm middle class.
Last year I had to pay the feds $300, this year I had to pay them $700. Go figure.
Funny my taxes (I'm not talking withholding, but the actual taxes) went up and I'm firmly upper middle class. Further my tax breaks end 2024 and the corporate and 0.1% tax cuts are permenant.
LOL! Exactly this.
Around 2009, I started getting bored and looked at the job market. I don't **need** to work, but I would like to work, at the right job, for the right pay.
It is 2019 and employers and I cannot agree about the right location or pay, so I've been volunteer teaching seniors and college kids Linux on the weekends.
10 yrs as cross-platform developer. C/C++. A few other languages. I haven't kept those up.
7 yrs as technical architect and enterprise architect, but I'm hands-on.
After an interview for an Enterprise Architect role at a very large financial services company, they asked me to take a C programming test - no warning. I hadn't written C using Windows tools in 10+ yrs, at least.
If they wanted a programmer, I wasn't the guy. After staring at a PC running Windows with a compiler I'd never used and the test for a few minutes, I got up and walked out. Told the proctor I wasn't the right person if they wanted to hire a programmer. Said the same in my "thank you" for the interview note. Never heard a word again. The pay was about 2x the going rate for a senior C programmer. We used Unix systems for all our development and ported to Windows. I'd setup the scripts to build all the code on all the platforms around 1996 and they worked with minor changes/updates until 2000 - when I left that company.
Took a job at a startup for stock (real, not options), and setup all their infrastructure. They were anti-cloud, which I liked. Followed all the security best practices, no Windows, no public PHP. VPN, backup, remote desktops, email, document management, accounting, project management, CRM, our own text, voice, video chat server, and external VoIP connections to POTS, etc. Wrote a few RoR and Perl-Dancer webapps there too. All running on commodity HW with redundant, replicated storage. Never had a server fail, but I did test failovers every weekend A-->B, then the next week, B-->A. When the company got bought, I walked away. Wasn't interested in being a cog in a Windows IT shop.
If you hate Cloudy services, love F/LOSS and virtualization, don't need me to be on-site all-the-time, won't make me deal with Windows or PHP - ever - leave a reply. I'm looking for the right situation again.
Will do anything to avoid having to hire Americans.
Just ban bringing in/hiring foreign workers
in a few shitty companies outsourcing.
Hey Anonymous Coward, here in Vancouver, the large offices of "a few shitty companies outsourcing" include Amazon, Microsoft, SalesForce, Slack and Electronic Arts.
https://www.straight.com/files...
What's sad is that old ass 6-digit user didn't feel the need to check Anonymous before going on a Hitler praise-fest. They are emboldened these days to show and be proud of their hate right out in the open. Slashdot is lost. I'm pretty sure the country isn't far away from it either.
.... Don't forget that the US has been slashing funding to education for decades.
The US government statistic disagree. K-12 educations funding is up almost 20% 2000- to 2015 that latest I found numbers for,
https://nces.ed.gov/fastfacts/display.asp?id=66
Because that's how Capitalism works. FACT. Ya know that thing you republicans worship more than the Bible?
Because republicans gutted Unions. FACT. Ya know those people you keep voting for?
Because you can't get your head out of your ass long enough to realize the slogan you posted is a SOCIALIST meme. FACT.
Gee, if only there were a field of study which tried to understand how people respond to incentives. If only there were only a way to predict if you make something more difficult, you'll get less of it. And that if you make something harder, organizations will use the easiest possible answer (which might not be the outcome you were hoping for).
Those are big and fairly famous. But it doesn't necessarily follow that they aren't shitty, though.
Confucius say, "Find worm in apple - bad. Find half a worm - worse."
Are you saying over the entire year, including withholding, you paid more federal taxes this year than last...OR, are you saying that due to less being withheld over the year, you had to pay in $400 more than last year at EOY?
There's a big difference....you're tax debt to the Feds should be lower for the fiscal 2018 year, but you may be paying a bit more at EOY due to less tax being withheld over the course of the year from your paycheck, if you are a W2 employee. The part that matters is your total tax debt to the Feds over the year 2018 which for most middle class folks is less.
Unless you happen to live in one of the HIGH state tax states, which you can no longer write off your high state taxes, in which case you did likely have to pay a bit more, but that can be taken care of by getting your elected state officials to lower the damned state taxes.
Light travels faster than sound. This is why some people appear bright until you hear them speak.........
And your statement disproves Rally's assertion. Texas and yourself were not making more money and 1 out of every 3 jobs in America because Texas has no Income Tax. You guys were doing so because you were extracting a real, tangible resource out of the ground and selling it.
Congrats? Most of those offices were there well before Orange. Man. BAD!
Funny, you are too stupid to realize over half of the news is fake now.
Does that mean you live in one of those HIGH state tax states?
If so, then yes, since you cannot write off state taxes, that likely hits you, BUT , you can address this by getting your elected state legislators to lower the damned overly high state taxes.
I would suggest, maybe you look into incorporating yourself for your work, or side work...so that you an gain on the 'corporate' tax breaks and write off a BUNCH of stuff, which helps me.
Most of the corporations that are single person corps (like me) are middle class and small businesses....I'm certainly not in the 1% or higher crowd, but I did benefit from the fall though corporate tax breaks. I have a S-Corp, and it works out quite well.
This is a very common corp for small businesses or individual contractors, etc. It does help a lot of us that are middle class, many times over the number of the few 1%'ers keep trying to refer to.
Light travels faster than sound. This is why some people appear bright until you hear them speak.........
That's the sad song I hear over and over but it's pure lies. I've worked with hiring groups that had listings for speciality tech workers in small US towns in states no one wants to live. Those slightly underpaid positions had hundreds of applicants per position. I've read through the resumes and even sat through many interviews. Most were qualified (some were not). There's no shortage, it's a complete and utter joke, you just want to minimize labor costs, that's it. That or your HR department and hiring strategies are horrible.
The fact is companies won't run away, they absolutely will not. Our military and cultural commitment to maintain and protect cronyism as a nation is what keeps companies from jumping borders. They won't leave, the consumer market and protections afforded here are too great. This is a idle threat playing against fear and I've heard that same salesmanship many times. Don't let the door hit you on the way out, good luck protecting and maintaining your IP and often stolen or exploited capital in most of the world. Most other citizens won't put up with it because they're more dire (except China, then you have to deal with the government which you don't have a finger on like you do in the US).
Please stop playing your sad song, no one believes it anymore.
Debt free, paid well into six figures and my taxes went down. Sucks fo you.
recent example. Install an application on a virtual machine. Following the instructions takes maybe 1 day max, including documentation. Another day to script and automate the whole thing.
It took our foreign workers from east asia a good two month and several night shifts. It is still not automated and hardly documented. They claim the instructions were not clear.
Meanwhile I took about 3 days to script another 5 applications and tested them on sevearl virtual machines. Can now be deployed automatically on any number of machines without operator intervention and is professionally documented.
But of course my rate is about 5 times theirs, so technically management thinks they have saved a lot of money hiring the remote team.
Funny my taxes also went up this year and I'm middle class.
Making Canada Great Again!
Re 'to buy food, clothes, services, etc."
A US citizen working for decades in the US supporting US tax payments is what the US needs more of.
The US needs citizens to pay in a lot of tax every year for decades. Not send their wage out of the USA ever year for a few years.
A foreign worker would never spend all their wage in a foreign nation. That wage is going back to their own nation as savings.
Why would anyone come to another nation and not save their wage? The project could end in a short time and that have no money saved?
Better to hire US citizens and have them spend their wage and pay more tax in the USA for decades.
Domestic spying is now "Benign Information Gathering"
Would you care to share the name of the company that you work for and which jobs that you have that you cannot fill with American talent? Otherwise your just blowin' in the wind. A corporate shill conscious or not.
Maybe I'm just dumb, but it seems to me that the solution is to require companies to pay H1Bs 20-25% more than a local hire.
If there is truly a need, they'll pay the extra. If a local worker is cheaper, then they'll look harder for them.
If you plug $10,000 into the US CPI Calculator from 2000 to 2015, you will find that it is worth $13,905. That means an increase from $10,000 to $12,000 over that period of time is an effective cut.
Cuts to higher education are more prominent:
https://www.cbpp.org/research/state-budget-and-tax/a-lost-decade-in-higher-education-funding
Don't be led to believe this kind of propaganda, canada has always tried advertising itself as the best country and looking to get top rankings, that should be a big red flag right there. I left canada after years of problems dealing with cheap companies and bad management, and i'm so glad I did. Taxes are much higher, and there are far fewer good jobs, most of this growth they mention is short term beginner level jobs that aren't very well paid or last long. The difference in pay is dramatic. Just look at all the big business and money the US has, canada has nothing like this, not even 1 big player. When I read some of the positive comments in here it makes me think what the heck is wrong with you. Try going to canada and i'll be laughing at you. And if anyone doesn't like what i'm saying and doesn't want to believe me, just wonder WHY are all these people in the world looking to come to the US to work in the first place!
That's the sad song I hear over and over but it's pure lies. I've worked with hiring groups that had listings for speciality tech workers in small US towns in states no one wants to live.
My employer has engineering offices in ~40 US cities, including a dozen or so major metropolitan areas.
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Before costs for visits for health insurance here in the US pre-obamacare.
I'm not sure what it is like since.
Would you care to share the name of the company that you work for and which jobs that you have that you cannot fill with American talent?
Google (er, Alphabet). Software engineers.
And to be clear, it's not that there isn't any American talent, it's that there isn't enough. Google hires at a voracious pace, hundreds per week, about half of them SWEs. And not because of turnover, because of growth. To sustain that rate, and maintain a high bar for talent, Google's recruiters have to find 50K-100K new prospects every week. You can't do that if you restrict yourself to 1/26th of the world's population.
And I don't think the problem is the Bay Area. There are lots of Google engineering sites around the country, and all of them struggle to hire enough SWEs to keep up with demand. Google teams are perpetually understaffed. The Bay Area sites do struggle a little more, but not much more.
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Respectfully, fuck that. Being able to spend or not spend your money the way you choose is a basic freedom of speech issue. Yes, money is speech.
US tech companies have been recruiting heavily from Canadian universities for decades. The only difference now is that those companies are going to open offices in Canada rather than sponsor those new hires to work in the US. Those workers would probably rather be paid in strong US dollars than Canadian loonies at the moment but there is no guarantee the US dollar will remain strong.
People in those high tax states don't "get out of" paying their fair share... in fact, they have been paying MORE than their fair share for decades as those low tax red states litteraly steal money from blue states to make their state function. Red states take far more money from the feds than they give... they are leeches on this country. Blue states have to not only make up for the red state leeches who are the ones who are actually not paying their fair share, but they also have to pay more in taxes to keep their states running because they don't get back as much from the fed.
.95 what it puts in. Then we'll see what you ungrateful "low state" people in red states think.
We need a constitutional amendment that bars any state from getting back more than 1.05 of what it puts in, nor less than
Fascism: An authoritarian and nationalistic right-wing system of government and social organization. See also: NAZI's
Or it can be taken care of by getting those "low tax" state leeches to pay their fair share instead of leeching money off blue states. Any state that has to take more from the feds than it puts in is a leech state... and those mostly seem to be the red states. Leeches; ungrateful leeches at that.
Fascism: An authoritarian and nationalistic right-wing system of government and social organization. See also: NAZI's
Why is it that those always whining about people taking responsibility are the ones that never do themselves. Any "low tax" state that leeches money off the fed (almost all of those seem to be red states) are NOT paying their fair share of taxes. Then, some ungrateful hypocrite like you comes along and says the people ALREADY paying more than their fair share should pay more, so you can continue to be a leech. You shouldn't have to wonder why people think conservatives have no integrity.
Fascism: An authoritarian and nationalistic right-wing system of government and social organization. See also: NAZI's
I don't think so, Canada is best place and projecting itself as a fast growing country. www.emporiaz.com
Evil megacorps owned by Corporate Progressive nazis indignantly deplore President Trump's modest efforts to protect American workers despite their failed efforts to lawfully-bribe his administration. The evil megacorps threaten to move operations to Canada, a more easily exploited country ruled by a goofy muppet who apparently values suitcases full of dirty cash more than he values the well-being of his own people. Corporate Progressive nazi fake news journalist applauds megacorp efforts to extort favoritism from the US government, deplores its surprising ineffectiveness. President Trump continues to stand strong for American workers, even in the face of yet another coordinated and well financed anti-worker propaganda campaign.
"If the process continues for long enough that our teams are primarily based outside of the US, then that will mean that Americans who want those jobs will have to move out of the country to get them. Assuming the other countries don't decide to reciprocate on the visa policies... if they do, then the Americans will just be SOL."
The army will be sent instead. As they say: Traitors before enemies, in the service provisioning..
Because most of them are incompetent and can't write decent code.
Why aren't you importing AFRICAN programmers? IQ, perhaps?
If our universities are #1, why do we need to import talent?
in global economy, let's admit that. In price terms. Why should anyone go to California and live sligtly above poverty line on $120-150K, giving most of that to landlords, medical insuranse and other leeches, when he can live like a king in his home country on a fraction of that income, doing remote work
Yet wages have not gone up significantly at all. So maybe these companies aren't as desperate as they say they are.
Laws are rules for the court, but merely a bottom bar to hit for life. Think beyond laws in your actions always.
I will "grow concerned" about these companies when they show any attempt to raise wages. That is their way to raise the red flag that they cannot find workers. They have not done that yet, so right now they are not as desperate as people say they are.
Laws are rules for the court, but merely a bottom bar to hit for life. Think beyond laws in your actions always.
Enjoy undercutting the Canadian labor market and the much more expensive cost of living. Talk about cutting off your nose to spite your face. I love the brag while tossing Canadian workers under the bus.
I don't really get this meme....
"States" don't pay taxes or monies to the Feds.
People in states pay taxes to the Feds, as to corporations.
These people pay as they are required....perhaps they don't earn as much, so therefore don't pay as much. Cost of living in some states is lower than others, so salaries aren't as high....
Are you saying a person in state #1 making $40K/hy should pay as much federal income tax as a person in state #2 making $100K/yr?
Light travels faster than sound. This is why some people appear bright until you hear them speak.........
"People in those high tax states don't "get out of" paying their fair share... in fact, they have been paying MORE than their fair share for decades as those low tax red states litteraly steal money from blue states to make their state function."
This is how our tax system works, just like citizens with more income owe a larger share, states which contain more of them owe a larger share. Just because your state pays more than another state in doesn't mean the people of your state paid their full share. It means your incomes are so disproportionate that you were able to dodge a large chunk of your fair share and still paid more. No small part of that is the people in blue states have advanced economic agendas that hurt the trades of midwestern and southern states while promoting their own trades. They then impose local and state taxes that have erroneously diverted federal income tax and then promoted increasing federal programs and subsidies. The other states see a larger increase with every additional program tacked on.
Corrections like this serve to help give you perspective on the cost of taxes and federal programs. It really is no different on the state level than the individual but people in blue states don't like to have the same logic applied to the state level as the individual. Want states to pay more than they take, start cutting out the programs that pay money to states and implement a tax cut for what they cost.
There is no way to untangle this broken and twisted knot that doesn't negatively impact both red and blue states at many stages. There is also no fair way that doesn't put a squeeze on high earners to pay their entire fair share. This is going to put a squeeze on state programs, then local programs. Eventually this will require increases to property taxes and there won't be havens for the wealthy to dodge by sinking their wealth into real estate.
1) Lower health care costs - gov health care paid for mostly by personal income taxes shifts the responsibilities of health care costs onto the state and their (working) citizens.
2) Weak Canadian Dollar - salaries in Canada when converted into USD make Canadian R&D CHEAP. $100K CAD is less than $75K USD, and the CAD is forecasted to remain weak or get weaker over the next 12 months. So R&D/tech workers in Canada are CHEAP CHEAP CHEAP for a US based company.
3) Numerous government sponsored tax rebates for R&D. At a federal and provincial level there are many programs that allow corporate tax rebates for R&D work that allow companies (including foreign owned companies) to significantly reduce the cost of their R&D.
So yes, Canada does on a per capita basis allow way more skilled immigrants into our country, but there are MANY reasons that have existed for years that make Canada a place for R&D work, partly the low costs, availability of new graduates for our educational institutions, as well as the 300K+ immigrants we welcome into our country (30+ new immigrants per year per 1,000 citizens in Canada, vs the US ~15).
Congrats? Most of those offices were there well before Orange. Man. BAD!
It's true they were here prior to Trump Anonymous Coward - But MUCH smaller. Microsoft, Amazon and Salesforce in particular have exploded in Vancouver hiring in the last 2 years.
...but you can basically track it back to the the Republicans taking congress, being obstructionist and refusing to pass any immigration reform. Trump just added massive amounts of fuel to that fire.
PS And oh BTW, you Anonymous Cowards know you look like utter and complete morons every time you write "Orange Man Bad," right? Just wanted to confirm.
No small part of that is the people in blue states have advanced economic agendas that hurt the trades of midwestern and southern states while promoting their own trades.
What utter and complete bullshit. Many of these red states lure businesses away from the blue states by lowering business taxes. This requires them to also lower services to the people living in the state... we see a great example of that being Kansas, a place that third world countries look at with disgust. Then they lower regulations on those businesses,and you end up with things like drinking water being so fouled with pollution that people have to buy bottled water just to drink. Red states have proven to be nothing more than a race to the bottom on governing, and incubators for self serving conmen posing as politicians.
Fascism: An authoritarian and nationalistic right-wing system of government and social organization. See also: NAZI's
I'm stating the obvious: red states are subsidized by blue states. It's not that blue states are paying so much, it's that red states aren't paying their fair share. Perhaps if the politicians in those states worked to make their states a place where people actually want to live, they'd draw more high income people.
Fascism: An authoritarian and nationalistic right-wing system of government and social organization. See also: NAZI's
Comment removed based on user account deletion
Perhaps in some of those states....it just doesn't COST as much to live there (general cost of living) hence the gross salaries needn't be so high, yet they still have the quality of living...the dollar goes further, etc.
I'm not saying that is all of it, no....but I would say it is a good sized contributing factor.
I mean, you can have a 2000+ sq ft house for say like $250K in TX or other places....whereas in NYC, a one room apartment can cost $1M or so....
Light travels faster than sound. This is why some people appear bright until you hear them speak.........
Are you sure they are shitty? Aren't you a bit worried about the effect talking like this will have on your 'citizen score' point? Imagine yourself in 5 years, interview for new job.
our 'ai' found some interesting things, there seems to be comment 5 years ago on Slashdot, related to you, showing dangerous thought patterns. What did you mean by 'it doesn't necessarily follow the amazon is not shitty' ? Do you consider someone with such views would be a good fit in our company?
ummmm.... eeehhh... hmmmmm....
You must be more careful what you say, this is after all the 'land of the free and the brave' and it has 'free speech' written in constitution even :DDDDD
Use it or lose it.
A US citizen working for decades in the US supporting US tax payments is what the US needs more of.
...and this story is saying we aren't getting more of them despite implementing policies we thought would help, or the conditions you outlined in the OP
I'm not arguing that it'd be better for American workers if they were hired. I'm pointing out that they AREN't getting hire (as much as they could, I mean overall economy is still improving slowly), so things aren't better for them.
I live in a red state but I've lived in many states. Honestly the only differences from one to the next are minor. The water is treated in much the same manner everywhere. People are choosing to drink bottled water while regulations declare it to be perfectly fine that doesn't mean they have to. People who actually need to drink bottled water usually have well problems. I'd certainly drink a glass in Georgia before I'd drink in LA or NYC which are by far the most polluted places I've been. In general you find the most pollution in heavily populated places.
In this particular red state I've found utility rates to the be lowest I've seen in the country, not the average but the low rates are available to anyone who bothers to shop on the deregulated market. Currently I pay less than $0.04/KWH net after everything is included for 100% renewable. You can choose dirty power, up to a couple years ago it was cheaper but now there is so much renewable that the state is on track to be 100% renewable within the next couple years without any special state level incentives. The market has just chosen renewable and driven down prices. Housing costs are low. I live in a reasonably wealthy suburb and you can rent a 1200 sq ft 3 bedroom house with a pool here for $1200/mo while I hear SF is sitting at 3x that. I've looked into tech positions in CA but the salaries aren't higher the cost of living is just dramatically higher. The air is clear, there is no smog, there is no income tax, businesses don't pay tax either unless they gross more than a million so that small business ventures and startups aren't hurt and the rates are reasonable.
You also don't have extra and unreasonable firearms restrictions and registration so crime is low and neighborhoods are safe. Even the 'bad' parts of town aren't really that bad compared to other places I've been. The politicians do tend to be nutballs but the economic policy actually plays out better in the real world so I don't worry about it much.
Nope the red states that are doing poorly are gutters largely because you've gutted their industry and outsourced it to China. You've tried to replace it with a growing financial and tech industry which is the primary export of blue states. Oh and you've pumped millions into bottom rate agricultural labor with lax immigration policies crushing those states agriculture economies. +Tech +Finance +Mexican labor subsidized agriculture +Cheap Chinese goods is a recipe for boosting the economies of blue states while depressing the industry of entire regions of red states.
Tell the parts of the US education system what is needed.
What math and computer code is getting so well educated in different nations that US educators can't/won't teach.
What do US brands so crave that no smart person in the USA can study?
Domestic spying is now "Benign Information Gathering"
"Net result, elimination of all car production lines as auto companies abandon them for more profitable SUV/light truck production resulting in off shoring of car production and loss of American manufacturing jobs"
Only commenting on this piece as it is particularly wrong. While some auto companies may offshore some SUV production, the most profitable light truck production ABSOLUTELY does NOT go offshore. I know this because of a long existing tariff I personally hate called the "Chicken Tax". You can google it if you want all the details, but the bottom line is that many years ago because of a trade dispute (on chickens and a few other things) the US implemented a 25% tax on all imported light trucks, which more less makes it unprofitable to do so. That means that ALL truck production, regardless of brand happens solely in the US. Some parts might be imported, but that is about it. This is also why you get the trend of trucks all being huge behemoths, and more and more trucks being built (profit margins high, no competition, and the bread and butter of the auto industry of the US). The end result being if companies want to sell trucks in the US they have to build a plant and build them there.
So no, it will not be lost light truck production jobs overseas... (as mentions SUV's are different). As for why I dislike the chicken tax, it is only because the truck market is so monotonous in the US because of it. There are tons of cool, interesting trucks, particularly of the smaller and inexpensive variety that never reach the shores of north america because it isn't worth anyone's time to try and market them here due to the 25% tariff making them essentially unprofitable.