'Making Amazon Look Bad': Microsoft Is Backing a Major Tax On Itself and Amazon (geekwire.com)

Microsoft is urging lawmakers in Washington to increase the tax burden on itself and Amazon (Warning: source may be paywalled; alternative source) to help pay for a new higher education fund. "The bill, which was introduced Monday by Rep. Drew Hansen and Rep. Gerry Pollet among others, "would pour about a billion dollars over the next four years into a 'workforce education account,' to be spent on more financial aid as well as more degree slots in high-demand subjects such as computer science, engineering and nursing," The Seattle Times reports. Microsoft and Amazon would be the only two companies included in the highest tax bracket. From the report: The premise now is to put a surcharge on businesses that benefit the most from a highly skilled workforce. That means high-tech of course, as well as professional services firms. The bill proposes increasing the state business and occupation tax by 20 percent on about 40 categories of technical services, such as telecom, engineering, medical and finance. And by 33 percent on tech firms with more than $25 billion in annual revenue. But here's where this goes off the charts, into politically unheard-of territory. It mandates a top rate, a whopping 67 percent business tax increase, for those "advanced computing businesses" with "worldwide gross revenue of more than one hundred billion dollars" per year. There are only two businesses headquartered here that fit that rarefied description. And one of them, Microsoft, is the tax's biggest booster.

But that other company that would also be most on the hook? Apparently it isn't so thrilled to have been volunteered for civic duty by one of its chief rivals. "Amazon was surprised to be included in such a public 'hey, let's do this' by Microsoft," said Rep. Gael Tarleton, D-Seattle, who said she heard that lament directly from an Amazon lobbyist. Added Pollet: "Amazon has groused in meetings down here that Microsoft is doing this mostly as a way of making Amazon look bad."

Comments

If anyone makes Amazon look bad, it's AMZN

[reanjr]

Microsoft doesn't decide how Amazon operates. If Amazon looks bad, it's down to Amazon alone.

Re:If anyone makes Amazon look bad, it's AMZN

[cascadingstylesheet]

Microsoft doesn't decide how Amazon operates. If Amazon looks bad, it's down to Amazon alone.

You are being played.

This is common business stuff. Usually it's large businesses getting in bed with government, because they have the heft to comply but small competitors don't.

In this case it's a bit more nuanced, they are leveraging this against a large competitor.

It's hardly virtuous. In fact, pouring money into computer science education is just a ploy to drive down wages of their own employees. It's a twofer.

Re:If anyone makes Amazon look bad, it's AMZN

[omnichad]

It's more than that. They want everyone else to help pay for a higher standard of education in the tech sector. Yet for their relatively small share of the cost, they will reap a larger share of the rewards by recruiting the very best of those. It might drive down wages, but haven't the H1Bs done that even more?

Re:If anyone makes Amazon look bad, it's AMZN

[chispito]

Microsoft doesn't decide how Amazon operates. If Amazon looks bad, it's down to Amazon alone.

You are being played.

This is common business stuff. Usually it's large businesses getting in bed with government, because they have the heft to comply but small competitors don't.

In this case it's a bit more nuanced, they are leveraging this against a large competitor.

It's hardly virtuous. In fact, pouring money into computer science education is just a ploy to drive down wages of their own employees. It's a twofer.

So you're optimistic that the programs will work, but pessimistic as to the motives? I'm rather the opposite: I do not believe pushing people into STEM will result in many more people competing in the field, though I think it's from a misguided effort on the corporations' part to do something about job opportunities for under served groups. I do think in ten years there will be a lot more middle managers who make their careers fiddling around in Python rather than the current crop that have made their careers twiddling around in Excel... but they won't be the ones writing the modules or supporting the databases.

Re: Yep. There's a West Coast "Solution"

[reanjr]

Actually, no, the solution to the actual problems being proposed is more spending. The tax increase is simply an implementation detail.

Well played Microsoft

[mykro76]

Who employs more degree-holders in the US?

• Amazon - 600K worldwide, but only about 60K it calls US corporate workers (likely to be degree holders) - the rest are low-wage fulfilment workers. Will pay tax on gross of 230 billion (2018).
• Microsoft - 130K worldwide, with 80K in the US, likely to be virtually all corporate workers. Would pay tax on gross of 110 billion (2018).

So Microsoft is likely to hire more degree holders than Amazon, yet forces Amazon to contribute twice as much to boosting the graduate pool.

Re:Well played Microsoft

[Kohath]

If Microsoft wants to pay for education, they don't need a tax. They can just write a check whenever they want.

Just like always, tax supporters — like Microsoft here — only support taxing themselves so they can benefit themselves by spending money other people earned. Every time.

Re:Well played Microsoft

[stealth_finger]

Who employs more degree-holders in the US?

• Amazon - 600K worldwide, but only about 60K it calls US corporate workers (likely to be degree holders) - the rest are low-wage fulfilment workers. Will pay tax on gross of 230 billion (2018).
• Microsoft - 130K worldwide, with 80K in the US, likely to be virtually all corporate workers. Would pay tax on gross of 110 billion (2018).

So Microsoft is likely to hire more degree holders than Amazon, yet forces Amazon to contribute twice as much to boosting the graduate pool.

When amazon is so profitable the owner can have his own fucking space program yeah, maybe they should be paying more tax.

Re: Yep. There's a West Coast "Solution"

[Anonymous Coward]

How successful is your current system? You are what? 35th in education, 41st in quality of life, 36th on life expectancy. Socialism sucks, but just a little less than capitalism.

Re:Yep. There's a West Coast "Solution"

[AHuxley]

Taking more money from your company so people who can't/won't learn can learn to code.
The only winner is the brand making the GUI software and code ready robot kits to teach random people "code".
Want to learn to code? Pass the test and exams. Get accepted on merit.
All that money flowing from your company to big gov backed learn to code education.
Find a city and state that lets you keep your money.
That support investment.
That welcome private sector jobs.
Great parts of the USA with low crime and clean streets.

Re:Invest any state with great care

[Plus1Entropy]

It's amazing how you can type so much and yet say absolutely nothing.

Re:Yep. There's a West Coast "Solution"

[Xenx]

First, you cannot have 100% failure rate when it still exists. Second, and more important, no system run to the exclusion of all else will succeed indefinitely.

Re: Yep. There's a West Coast "Solution"

[ShanghaiBill]

Socialism sucks, but just a little less than capitalism.

You are likely confusing "Socialism" with "Social Democracy". Although they both contain the root word "social", they are two completely different things. Social democracy is a form of capitalism, not a form of socialism.

Social democracy: Denmark
Socialism: Venezuela

Re:Invest any state with great care

[AHuxley]

How much new tax can only one brand pay before another state looks like a better location to move to?
When is a new "learn to code" tax going to grow to remove all profits?
Why stay in a state who views all productive private sector profits as something to place a new education tax on?
Learn to rank each city and state.
Move to the states that allow growth and who support the private sector.
Why stay and pay ever more virtue signalling taxes? That money thats extracted from the ability to invest and grow a brand.

Re: Yep. There's a West Coast "Solution"

[Anonymous Coward]

Economist nice right wing website there

I raise you
https://nces.ed.gov/pubs/web/97916.asp
https://www.usnews.com/news/best-states/articles/2018-02-27/in-most-states-poorest-school-districts-get-less-funding
https://www.nbcnews.com/news/latino/segregation-school-funding-inequalities-still-punishing-black-latino-students-n837186
https://hechingerreport.org/the-gap-between-rich-and-poor-schools-grew-44-percent-over-a-decade/
https://edtrust.org/resource/funding-gaps-2018/
https://www.thenation.com/article/how-unequal-school-funding-punishes-poor-kids/
https://www.globalcitizen.org/en/content/cost-of-education-in-us/
https://www.kpbs.org/news/2011/may/19/schools-rich-neighborhoods-receive-more-tax-dollar/
https://www.theatlantic.com/business/archive/2016/08/property-taxes-and-unequal-schools/497333/
https://www.philly.com/philly/education/pennsylvania-school-funding-lawsuit-rich-poor-districts-20180706.html

Businesses do not pay tax

[SirAstral]

Notice that line item on your receipts that say "Tax:$$$"... you pay that, not the business... they just collect for uncle sam from you.
Did you also know that businesses calculate the total cost of a product they buy from whole-sellers and vendors, which they paid taxes on, which is a cost they transfer to the consumer that buys the end product?

Did you know that when you cheer on a business paying MORE tax you are actually just cheering on the poor paying more for all of their products? People cheered windfall taxes... prices at the pumps when up... then they cried about it. I was like... huh? you cheered for this you numb-nuts!

The poor tax is real, and it has everything to do with being ignorant about how the economy works. Microsoft is a big company, the money they make filters down to you... the lowly consumer, and NO you do not escape that cost just because you don't use windows. You buy food, your store might use Windows, you pay bills, that company might be using Windows. They all pass down the cost of buying their licenses from Microsoft to you... their customer.

Have you wondered why your dollars do not go as far as they used to? It's not just inflation... inflation is just one component, in fact inflation is more a tax on your savings than anything else.

Let's make this simple.

You own a Burger Joint.
Taxes today for a $5 burger is 10%
Customer pays $5.50 for that burger.
Taxes tomorrow for a $5 burger is 15%
Customer now pays $5.75 for that burger.
Those that cheer for taxes like this, is like the customer cheering that their burger just went up 25 cents. Hurray for you, your senators thank you for your gullibility! They will happily take 20 cents of that 25 and give it to their cronies... D or R it matters not.

It is not a joke when they say that the poor pay for everything and it is not a joke when a reasonable minimum wage is enforced to ensure a minimum viable economy, because if the poor have no money the rich soon lose theirs as well. Look at how many rich folks also suffered in Venezuela when it ran out. Only the super rich are finding ways to survive and that is mostly because they are connected to power, not just because they have $$$.

Couple this with the fact that another poster mentioned that Americans already pay more than enough for education, you might as well call that more than enough evidence that foul play is afoot and you need a sanity check to cheer this on any longer.

And lets not forgot how many businesses that still get out of paying taxes through loophole laws, brought to you by none other that the very elected officials everyone that cheers for this voted in. Do you feel the daggers in your backs yet? No? Okay, that's great... it means they can dig it in further and twist a little more!

Re:Businesses do not pay tax

[Anonymous Coward]

If I own a burger company, and my customers will happily pay $5.75 for a burger, why would I only charge $5?

When you own a business, you price your goods to maximize revenue. You don't need a tax to raise prices.

Given an opportunity to raise prices without alienating customers, the logical thing to do is raise prices. In some philosophies of business, the ethical thing to do is raise prices in that situation.

When you understand that modern business ethics puts maximizing revenue above all other considerations (including profit), then asking for higher taxes makes sense. This allows you an opportunity to increase revenue.

Re:Businesses do not pay tax

[anarcobra]

You are simplifying things in the other direction from GP.
Yes, businesses will raise their price as high as they can, but burger places are competitive, so consumers have the choice of going to a cheaper place. So there will be an equilibrium between maximizing profits and not going to far from the competition. (assuming there is no price fixing)
A tax will affect all the competition as well, so there is a good chance the price of burgers will go up across the board.

Re:Businesses do not pay tax

[Whibla]

Let's make this simple.

You own a Burger Joint.
Taxes today for a $5 burger is 10%
Customer pays $5.50 for that burger.
Taxes tomorrow for a $5 burger is 15%
Customer now pays $5.75 for that burger.
Those that cheer for taxes like this, is like the customer cheering that their burger just went up 25 cents. Hurray for you, your senators thank you for your gullibility! They will happily take 20 cents of that 25 and give it to their cronies... D or R it matters not.

The manufacturing cost of a burger (including fixed costs to simply the point) is $4, and your burger joint sells 1000 burgers per financial year.
Burger sells for $5, excluding sales tax at whatever rate you set it -> profit before (corporation) tax of $1000 dollars.
Corporation tax @ 40% -> net profit of $600, which can be distributed as dividends back to the shareholder. tax of $400 which can be redistributed.
Corporation tax @ 60% -> net profit of $400, which can be distributed as dividends back to the shareholder. tax of $600 which can be redistributed.

Not all taxes are the same, not all taxes 'incentivise' in the same way. Conflating sales tax with corporation tax is woolly thinking of the highest order.

Re:Businesses do not pay tax

[AmiMoJo]

You are describing sales tax. Corporation tax is on corporate profits, not on sales.

The obvious flaw in your argument is that you ignore where the $5 price tag for the burger comes from. The company chose $5 based on what the market will pay for its product. If the tax increases the market won't magically be willing to pay more for its product, so price rises may result in losing more from lost sales than the tax increase is worth.

Did Google's prices go up when they were forced to pay the back tax they owned in the EU? Were the EU fines they paid for anti-competitive behaviour passed on directly to their customers? Of course not, the online advertising and cloud computing markets are highly competitive and they are in both for the long term, so they aren't going to jack up costs and damage their competitiveness over a relatively modest tax rate.

Re:Businesses do not pay tax

[drinkypoo]

You own a Burger Joint.
Taxes today for a $5 burger is 10%
Customer pays $5.50 for that burger.
Taxes tomorrow for a $5 burger is 15%
Customer now pays $5.75 for that burger.

Right. The Customer now pays $5.75. The person walking by on the street doesn't pay anything. So it's the people who use the resource who pay the taxes. That's fair, and efficient. Just look at how many people pay required sales taxes if not assessed at purchase time, it's basically nobody. So you tax the business, not the customer, and the customer pays for it — the business makes sure they do, because otherwise they've got a problem.

This is why we need to increase taxes on commercial trucking. Heavy trucks do virtually all the damage to the road surface that's not done by weather itself. Light cars do basically none. RVs do more damage than cars per mile, but they don't move around much, so they don't do much damage overall. Without GPS tracking, the fairest way possible to account for road damage is to charge more fees for commercial trucks, probably those over 26k GVWR (because of the way the current fees are structured, and 26k is a magic number in the eyes of the current law.) The cost of the additional taxes will be rolled into the cost of goods, and then the people who buy those goods will wind up paying them. Those who buy things sourced from shorter distances will wind up paying less of the tax, so that will encourage buying local.

Re:Businesses do not pay tax

[squiggleslash]

That's not what he means. He means that if ACME Burgers Inc has to pay 20% income tax instead of 10% income tax, and makes 5% (25c) profit on a $5 burger, then ACME will have to charge $5.03 for the burger because it'll treat the income tax rise as a rise in costs.

In reality, the situation is more nuanced. An increase in taxes on corporate entities raises the price floor for the products they sell, but there's still an "ideal price" where profit x sales is maximized, and that's usually higher than the price floor.

ACME has to compete with O'Burgers and BurgerEmperor, and that competition will drive down what it can realistically charge for a burger too. But O'Burgers and BurgerEmperor will also see the same rise in "costs", and so there's a limit to how low they'll go.

So in practice, you're unlikely to see any business having to pay more income tax have a noticeable affect on prices. Even if they do pass on the raise, it'd both have to be a huge increase in income tax, AND they'd have to be already making HUGE profits, which they cannot afford to see less of, for the tax to show up as a noticeable increase in prices.

Re:Businesses do not pay tax

[squiggleslash]

You own a Burger Joint.
Taxes today for a $5 burger is 10%
Customer pays $5.50 for that burger.
Taxes tomorrow for a $5 burger is 15%
Customer now pays $5.75 for that burger.

While I agree with the general point, sorta, these numbers are hopelessly wrong as they assume that the burgers are 100% profit and the business has no costs. Taxes on a $5 burger that costs $4.75 to make (assuming 5% profit, which is not unusual in that industry, and includes all amortized costs) would, at 10%, be 2.5c. The increased cost would be less than 2c if taxes went up to 15%.

In all honesty if you doubled corporate income tax tomorrow, between the fact it's a tax on profits and the external pressures keeping costs down, I doubt you'd see a blip of more than a fraction of a point on inflation for the year.

Re:Businesses do not pay tax

[Whibla]

Good points.

But now you're ignoring a couple of other issues: If the price of your burgers jumps 50% will you really still sell the same number of them? If you raise your prices, hence your total sales, will you move up a(nother) tax bracket? If your tax bracket changes what's to stop a smaller company selling burgers at the lower price, undercutting you and taking your customers?

Of course perhaps a more pertinent question might be, why the emotive appeal? Apart from the fact that I'm not responsible for grandpa's investment decisions, and the fact that the targeted tax is intended to strengthen the industries being taxed by providing them with better workers, hence increasing their revenues, profits and dividends, no company should be insulated from the market or the regulatory environment based on who is invested in it.

If you're really worried about Grandma & Grandpa's retirement perhaps some of your tax revenue could go towards providing a national pension scheme ... we could call it Social Security or something...

Re:What is that state is China?

[AHuxley]

Find any state/city that actually welcomes new investment and that wants job creation.

Plan: bring Amazon down, then suddenly back out

[Shompol]

This reminds me about that time Microsoft settled with patent trolls with the purpose of scaring Sony into paying. One of the conditions of their settlement was to get money back after Sony pays. They were not ashamed to try and enforce this agreement through court, thus making it public. Microsoft has always been a bunch of narcissistic douche bags, pretending to be a technology company.

Go Microsoft!

[Sivaraj]

I would have never believed I would say this 20 years back. That too on Slashdot. But,

Go Micro$oft!!!

Re: Yep. There's a West Coast "Solution"

[Anonymous Coward]

Your sentence structure.
Reminds me of a haiku.
Outch! its just poor structure.

Re: Yep. There's a West Coast "Solution"

[renegadesx]

When liberal free market democracies are being reduced to eat their pets, give me a call. Name one socialist country doing a better job than us on any of those.
And before you start to say any of the Scandinavian countries, nobody except the American far left even classes them as socialists, they hate the word because they know what the rest of the world knows: Socialism is Venezuela, nor Norway. Social democratic countries are still capitalist with exceptionally low corporate tax rates and high income taxes on the middle class.

Re: Yep. There's a West Coast "Solution"

[war4peace]

America spends more per student on education than any other country in the world except Norway.

There is a difference between "money spent" and "money well spent".

Re: Yep. There's a West Coast "Solution"

[moronoxyd]

As somebody who spent half of his life in a socialist country (East Germany) and now lives in a capitalist country with social democratic leanings I can assure you: You are wrong and GP is right.

Remember the Depression?

[Bruce66423]

OK - you're not old enough
Neither am I!

But that was when a 'liberal market democracy' fell into a deep hole. The hows and whys of how that happened and what got the country out of it are disputed. But it's a reminder that it can happen. And the crash of 2008 wasn't worse than it was because of 'socialist' actions by governments.

Re:TEXAS

[gtall]

and including the that paradigm of capitalism, the patent loving courts in East Texas.

If this passes, Amazon new HQ plans to accelerate

[misnohmer]

They already were planning to leave, then decided to just build a second HQ in New York, then decided to just expand everywhere. If this passes, it will give them incentive to setup headquarters elsewhere sooner. Boeing did it, still has factories in Washington, but HQ moved to Chicago in 2001.

I don't want to pay 67% more for MS products.

[sabbede]

Which is what will happen, as businesses pass costs on to customers.

Re:I don't want to pay 67% more for MS products.

[grumpy-cowboy]

Then don't buy MS products. I don't and I save 100%. ;)

Re:What is that state is China?

[Impy the Impiuos Imp]

But paying your fair share* is American!

* Your taxes increased to pay for every last freebie I want to hand out for votes, praise me.

Re:Invest any state with great care

[stealth_finger]

Do your homework before investing in any part of the USA. The politics, laws, SJW, homeless populations, education levels, power prices, political activism. Rank each state/city by the tax and costs they create for a larger brand. Dont allow your band to become a flow fo money for city and state SJW projects and state/city virtue signalling. Once a city/state wants to extract your profits to fund their political virtue signalling have the ability to move to a really great state. A state tat welcome investment and that has low crime and less of a homeless problem. That allows your brand to keep your profits, invest in your brands growth. Avoid the state/cities that want to extract more of your money for their own side of politics. Find the states with good housing prices for your workers, good eduction so your workers can work. Stay away from union and political demands to hire in set parts of a city. To "create" new jobs for random people after community talks. Low 24/7 power costs, low tax, less political activism and fast networks.

Basically what you're saying is move in, take everything, give nothing, move out.

Why Pay Tax?

[Anonymous Coward]

Why can't they just donate the money straight into education? Award bursarys and scholarships as has always been done by benefactors. You know, it is possible to help others without extending the power of the state.

Re:Why Pay Tax?

[temcat]

Because when a large business entity asks to increase taxes "on itself" (mind the weasel words!), in reality it wants that tax to contribute to eliminating smaller competitors for who this tax increase will become a heavier relative burden.

Re: Yep. There's a West Coast "Solution"

[mpercy]

They borrow it. Running a deficit where tax revenues don't keep pace with spending is hardly new to governments.

That HQ2 move will come even sooner

[mpercy]

Why stay and get taxed punitively?

Re:Fiduciary duties

[Daetrin]

A company can define what's in the best interest of itself, and thus their shareholders, and it does not have to be "maximize profits." Of course many companies decide that maximizing profit is the best path, but the idea that it is a legal requirement is a myth.

Source 1

Source 2

Source 3

Here's a crazy idea

[VeryFluffyBunny]

How about govt. doing its job & making sure everyone pays their fair share of taxes in order to fund the stuff that everyone needs from their govt., e.g. public transportation, education, healthcare, urban planning, law enforcement & judiciary, & public health & safety, you know, all the stuff that improves the standard of living & quality of life for everyone?

That means everyone, including billionaires & corporations, who are currently starving govts. of the funds they need to provide opportunities, safety, health, & security for everyone.

Or you can carry on marching towards poverty & disenfranchisement because the billionaires & corporations fill the power void left by libertarian ideological "small govt." Does that sound democratic & civilised to you?

Re: Yep. There's a West Coast "Solution"

[Billly Gates]

Why are Americans so batshit crazy when they hear liberal, socialism, government, or taxes? Is this some sort of cult?

If no government, education, regulations, or taxes were beneficial then why does America rank last of any 1st world country in standards of living, healthcare, shootings, and happiness?

Re: Plan: bring Amazon down, then suddenly back ou

[Billly Gates]

Plan in my opinion is to fuck with AWS. If this forces Amazon to move and loose money great. Remember MS desperately wants Azure to succeed to the point of making a MS Linux and MS freebsd distros to attract customers.

MS already has the upper hand with Office365 customers getting Azure already bundled since it runs off that anyway.

Re: If this passes, Amazon new HQ plans to acceler

[Billly Gates]

I think that is their plan. .coms hate it when you have options to jump ship with your trade secrets They don't want the AWS team to gain Azure and Office365 employees.

Moving across the country when you have a mortgage and life makes jumping a lot less attractive

They should take it a step further

[nehumanuscrede]

Impose an even higher tax on all companies who benefit from " highly skilled workers " but prefer to import the cheap versions from places like India vs the local workforce.

That whole H1-B " We can't find any 'skilled' workers locally ( who want to work for minimum wage ) " bullshit to cut costs would come to a screeching halt in a hurry.

Re: Yep. There's a West Coast "Solution"

[nehumanuscrede]

"Why are Americans so batshit crazy when they hear liberal, socialism, government, or taxes? Is this some sort of cult?

If no government, education, regulations, or taxes were beneficial then why does America rank last of any 1st world country in standards of living, healthcare, shootings, and happiness?"

Oh that's easy.

Because the American Government is horribly corrupt, incompetent and tends to f*ck up just about everything it touches and / or tries to fix.
( See Education, Immigration, Social Security, the Tax Code, Income Inequality, and just about everything that is wrong with America today. )

See we have no filtering in place for those who seek positions of power that will ultimately decide what America is. No test, no qualifications, nothing.

Is how we have folks like Super Socialist AOC who thinks she can fix the world with her delusions of grandeur and extensive political experience.
Is also how we have someone like Trump who has zero qualifications and / or experience in the decisions he has to make on a daily basis.

In other words, we typically have full blown, unqualified idiots running this country who are only looking out for themselves.

Trust me when I say, the less the Government is involved, the better.

Re: Yep. There's a West Coast "Solution"

[oh_my_080980980]

Interesting, so then I suppose you support a major military spending cut...

It depends on how the money is spent. So it's overly simplistic to say spending more money didn't not solve problems in education.

Re:Yep. There's a West Coast "Solution"

[oh_my_080980980]

As opposed to corporate welfare...

It will educate nobody

[scourfish]

It will get squandered, spent poorly, and there will be no accountability when the program goes over budget and the same lawmakers look for more money to squeeze.

Re: Yep. There's a West Coast "Solution"

[lgw]

Actually, no, the solution to the actual problems being proposed is more spending. The tax increase is simply an implementation detail.

Problem: medical costs are simply too low, especially for the elderly and disabled.

Solution: lets add more taxes! The tax on medicinal devices worked so well, let's tax anyone who employs nurses. That's will surely keep medical costs rising.

Problem. Solution.

Re: Yep. There's a West Coast "Solution"

[Shotgun]

Yes, and removal of our troops from places like Syria and South Korea.

Re: Yep. There's a West Coast "Solution"

[Shotgun]

Then why are people lining up at our southern border to get in here?

Re: Yep. There's a West Coast "Solution"

[dunkelfalke]

What's your phone number? Because I actually do have a few examples. The socialist dictatorship of Belarus is doing much better than the liberal free market of Ukraine despite roughly comparable starting circumstances (Ukraine actually started on better terms). The socialist dictatorship of Cuba is doing somewhat better thwn the liberal democratic Jamaica.
If you compare economical systems you should do that with similar countries, otherwise it would be a comparison of something else and by that logic an absolutist monarchy with the most part of the economy being family owned would be the most effective way, like in Qatar, Brunei or the UAE.