Slashdot Mirror
Nintendo Confirms It Will Sue UltraHLE Creators
Flagrantly Biased Editorial: Once again, Nintendo is inventing intellectual property rights out of thin air. Miss Llewelyn states as axiomatic that emulators A) are illegal, and B) exist solely to permit playing illicit copies of games. This false premise leads them to a variety of flawed conclusions, such as the belief that Nintendo has the right to dictate what buyers can and can't run the games on. Regardless of what shrinkwrap "agreements" may say, it is my adamant position that once a product is released into an uncontrolled retail market, what the purchaser does with that product is entirely their business (within the confines of applicable statutes), and the vendor has no right after the fact to constrain use. Further, running a program under an emulator, despite Nintendo's fervent desires, does not constitute an infringing "derivative work" under copyright law. In fact, translating your personal copy of a copyrighted software program to achieve compatability with another platform is recognized as fair use, as Nintendo well knows. (Redistribution of the translation, however, isn't kosher.)
Nintendo's narrow position also fails to take into consideration that I'm seriously considering buying a copy of Zelda-64 now that I can play it on my PC. If, however, their principles compel them to forego my (meager) contribution to their revenue, I would be happy to oblige.
let's see here; nintendo has lost every single suit so far against an emulator so far.
Why oh why do they think they'll win now?
I'm sure Nintendo really cares if you buy Zelda or not, considering the amount of piracy because of this emulator is much higher to the one copy you think is going to make this huge difference in their revenue. wake up
Do I smell a boycott in the air?
I know it's been talked about briefly before, in another article, but this is seriously something that everyone needs to do. Where does it end? First they try to take emulators, then what next? Suing you because you buy a competetiors product as well? (You hereby agree that you shall not use any competitor's software, and that company inc. has the right to scan your drive at any time..)
On top of that, emulators are entirely LEGAL under current law. It's the distributed ROMs that are illegal. It's like suing the Post Office because you received a mailbomb through it.
*sigh* I loved Nintendo when I was 10, but now that I'm grown up, I guess it's time to start chanting BOYCOTT to them.
If Nintendo thinks it's losing money _now_, just wait until all the 14-year olds with their parent's P2-450s and Cable/DSL find out about it. And you thought ROM beggars were bad now!
This is going to be a huge blunder for Nintendo if they actively start 'announcing' that you can play N64 games on the PC.
I can't wait until Sony loses their case against Connectix....
A note to Nintendo: The only ROMs I've ever downloaded or played on an emulator were ones I shelled $60-75 bucks a piece for. My NES crapped out due to shoddy manufacturing and emulators are the only way to keep playing my favorite games without handing over $75 to an antique shop to get a 'refurbed' NES.
If ya can't beat em, join em. Put out an authorized version of SNES9X and leave well enough alone.
Might it be in Connectix interest to help these two with their suit? Since Connectix is facing the same problem with Sony, I wonder if they would be interested in pursuing this, too? Either way, I'm sure they'll be watching closely to see what happens if their suit doesn't happen first.
Correct me if I'm wrong, but I thought the authors of UltraHLE took it down *because* of the piracy issues.
What about other emulators out there? Do they *not* encourage piracy? Is one worse than the other? Or is it that UltraHLE was so good at what it did that Nintendo is scared?
This is going to sound naive, but I wonder if Nintendo has considered approaching this from the opposite side. If there are emulators now, especially top-notch ones like UltraHLE, there'll be emulators in the future. And there'll be a market for games on those emulators. A pirate market.
If you look at the existence of emulators -- provided they are not infringing actual copyright -- of any quality, then you're effectively looking at more consoles. They'll be provided for, one way or another. If there's no legal way to obtain games for them, people'll get them illegally. You can put effort into curbing this, but it's unlikely it'll ever be stamped out.
So provide a legal way. It ought to be possible for Nintendo to come up with a way of turning this perceived threat into a revenue stream. How hard can it be -- it's just another market.
They've been ripping the consumer off forever, and now that the consumer has a chance to fight back they get scared and sue.
The markup on video games is incredibly high. I think we should all sue Nintendo and the other video game manufacturers for screwing the consumer.
Also, shouldn't Nintendo sue everyone who has put up an emulator, not just the "good" one? I can't see how making an emulator is illegal, making roms and distributing yes, but an emulator?
For Nintendo's reference, I'll gladly be the first witness called to say that yes I own a Nintendo 64 (bought it the day it was released US) and I also have UltraHLE. But yet I've never played a game on the emulator that I didn't have 3 feet away from me. (wave race on UltraHLE is very cool)
Why doesn't Nintendo (and Sony, for that matter) work with the emulators to expand their market and mind share? Maybe they should make their own emulators. They would be much better off if they would stop wasting their resources fighting the inevitable and find a way to turn this into a profit.
Fire the lawyers and hire more techs and creatives.
Surely the duo will walk into the HQ of Nintendo U.S. and give themsleves up a la Se7en after reading this.
The source is (sort of) out. Somebody convince the creators to put out the entire source. Improve the hell out of it, make it world class. Nintendo can either market it or take it up the ass! Really, they should sell the ROMs. Make money or loose it.
Nintendo will never be able to track down the authors of UltraHLE, and even if it does, the case would be a waste of money. Currently they are just trying to discourage the UltraHLE authors by announcing stuff like that.
:-)
Here are some reasons why Nintendo can't sue the UltraHLE authors.
MAME lives on. Who cares about anything else
This is like trying to ban video players because they can be used to play pirated videos. They'll never get away with it, I just hope their stock drops _real_ rapidly after this.
I think Nintendo should do the smart thing and back the emulator creators and then sell their roms via the internet or on CD's at your local computer store.
If I want to copy a ROM from a game I own so
I can play it on my laptop, then that's MY business!
I think Nintendo is just pissed off because they
didn't think of it first.
This is just another case of a proprietary company
trying to maintain control because it doesn't know
how to evolve with the rest of the world.
Nintendo: we don't need you!
The only good thing I can say about Nintendo is
atleast they don't intentionally write buggy software
like Microsoft.
Nintendo is suing because THEY WILL WIN!!!
Lawsuits are won or lost based on how much money people can afford to throw at them.
By suing the little guys, who have no money, Nintendo hopes to win, thereby establishing
as new legal standard, which they can use against other "emulation" companies/people.
A web site needs to be set up to provide for a legal defense fund for these poor guys.
And the best defense is a good offense. If everyone reading slashdot was to send email to
nintendo, flaming them for this stupid move, perhaps they might take notice before a
fortune is spent (by us) on legal fees.
Email addresses that I know of are (from http://www.nintendo.com/consumer/reachus.html):
General questions and comments: nintendo@nintendo.com
Online Manager: Dan Owsen dano@nintendo.com
Online Writer: Kent Miller kent@nintendo.com
Online Writer: Andy Hartpence andy@nintendo.com
Online Designer: David Wharton dwharton@nintendo.com
Webmaster: Scott Melton web-master@nintendo.com
Online Coordinator: Scott Ebert-Hovivia scotteh@nintendo.com
I would also suggest that if Nintendo continues with this lawsuit, that the source code to
the N64 emulator be released.. And that each of us push for a boycott. Specifically, consider
doing things like printing up fliers and stapling them to telephone poles outside toy stores and
video-cart rental shops. Call the papers. Tell them the story. Try to make the boycott seem
bigger than it is, and it will become so.....
The key point to succeeding with a boycott is to pass the knowledge on to folks who don't read
slashdot.com. The non-techies, and particularly the kids, who just play the games.
We have the manpower here and now. We can do this, if we want to....
If you really want Sony and Nintendo to shake in their boots, apply the Open Source paradigm to hardware. Design an open hardware platform that any manufacturer could use w/o royalties, along with an Open Source RTOS. I'm sure that any hardware design company that did this could still make bucks off of consulting and support. Multiple manufacturers would lend credence to the platform, and Game Designers would jump at the chance to avoid the large costs associated with writing for these two proprietary platforms.
Sony lost its injunction to keep Connectix from shipping VGS. While that is a good first step, the suit is still pending.
What I'm not sure about is whether the differing media will make a difference to the courts. After I bought VGS, I went out and bought a legitimate PlayStation CD to play on it. If it was N64, someone would have needed to download the ROM from the cartridge -- perhaps my own legit copy, perhaps not. On the other hand, the fact that you can reproduce music CDs on a CD-R drive hasn't prompted the record companies to sue CD-R drive makers (we'll see about MP3s).
I think it all boils down to this: If you charge a reasonable price for your products, the vast majority of people will not pirate it -- they want to see themselves as law abiding. If they look at reproduction and distribution costs and decide that you are making a responsible profit, they will buy. A $15 music CD seems fair enough, but when they see a PSX game on the same media for three times the price, then they feel a temptation to pirate.
If reproduction costs are close to nil and you are still charging high prices, folks will feel that you are essentially gouging them for intellectual property and will then pirate it. On the other hand, when was the last time you saw anyone "pirate" a paperback?
I think both the music and software industries would do themselves a favor if they went to a model more similar to the book sellers. Release products initially in "hardcover" (physical media, with the pretty box and the printed manuals), then after some months transition to "soft cover" (electronic distribution) at a greatly reduced price. People who want the product right away will be willing to pay full price, while others will say "Eh, I'll wait for the download".
The problem now is that the music and software companies want you to pay hardcover prices for too long a time -- if they were book sellers, the paperback wouldn't come out until two years later (when CDs and software land in the bargain bin), and the IP contained on them is worth close to zero to the consumer.
It is LEGAL to make archive copies of software you have purchased a license for. PERIOD.
I did pay for the N64 system and couple games. After more than 1 year of the game system release, there aren't many great title on the shelfs. And they are suiting people because they build an emulator? Put time to put more game, better profolio, not bullying around.
...
I also paid for SNES, which make me a happy customer, but the N64, I will I could say that
Apparently Nintendo has an individual representing them that is being fed second hand information. She clearly is not aware of laws in existance. Not only that this will only bring the public aware of emulators and will make the underground scene larger than ever. Heh. There will be more continuation of the emulators, and more of them, posted anonymously making it impossible for Nintendo to sue anyone. Ahhh this is going to be GREAT. I can't wait. They screw up a deal with Sony and then get crushed by Sony's retalliation with the Playstation. Now with this underway Nintendo is just going to destroy themselves.
Oh I love this!
is that the software (emulator) bypasses some
kind of coopy protection mechanism in order
to run games. The UltraHLE authors, on the
other hand, stated clearly in their email reply
to the rumours of the suit, that they encountered
no such mechanisms. Surely a source release of
the emulator would back up their side. (i.e.
allowing for third party analysis of the
technical issues)
If this is not the case, (i.e. they have not
bypassed any c/p mechanisms) then this would
be documentary proof (along with the compiling
details, one could show that the source was in
fact the source of the executable by executing
a simple compile).
Further, they cite reasons for taking down
the emulator as stopping piracy -- since this
reason clearly no longer applies (i.e. Nintendo
doesn't think there's any difference, neither
do the rest of us) there is no reason for them
NOT to release source to the program (they weren't aiming to sell it, so keeping it
proprietary helps no-one -- further, getting the
source to a country where emulators aren't
illegal in practice (or a number of countries)
should keep it from being lost completely).
The actual idea of emulation is older the
computer itself. This goes back to the work
of Turing, Church et at.
Any digital computer can, in principle, and given
sufficient resources, emulate any other. Nintendo
know this (they surely must) and if they don't like this fact about digital computers, they
shouldn't have entered the market in the first place.
(In a way its similar to the way that a corporation of company has to agree to the laws
govening their being a company before becoming
one. -- If they want to play with a product of
mathematics, then they have to abide by the laws
governing that (i.e. theorems and proofs) -- if
they don't like a particular result, they can't
just legislate it away (recall the State of
Indiana trying to redefine Pi)).
Actually, in a market, we are *not* free to do whatever we wish with a product once purchased.
We can't, for example, put turboshaft engines in our cars and drive them on the freeway, or modify aircraft flight characteristics, etc.
The look at a lot of the case law involved.
Most of the terms you describe are legally
unenforceable -- they can put them in the
shrink wrap license, and you can agree to them.
You can then go against that and start reverse
engineering -- but they cannot take you to
court over breach of the license.
(They should claim to have been hacked, and then
have the source pop up in Russia or something...)
F$CK!
To paraphrase the chief architect of the SGI reality chip in the N64:
"I was surprised to find out Nintendo is not
a technology company. They have been around for decades selling playing cards. They have more lawyers than engineers."
Personally, I never liked the idiotic 2D games of Nintendo. I was very dissapointed when SGI partenered with them instead of SEGA. Now SGI got what they deserve. They have been dumped in favor of a startup (ex-SGIers among the founders) for the design of the future Nintendo machine.
Now SEGA is in bed with Microsoft, and Sony's president is a pal of Bill Gates (see a Time magazine article from a couple months ago regarding the `movers and shakers' in info tech).
Stop buying stuff from the big three. And if they proceed with their unfounded legal harassment,
let's give them a real reason and START PIRATING
THEIR WARES LIKE HELL!
I just want to point out that your example of dosemu is flawed. Dosemu does not emulate MS-DOS in any way, shape or form. It provides a Virtual Machine in which a real-mode OS can boot. *Any* real-mode OS
Everyone (including Nintendo) seems to be ignoring the fact that the authors of UltraHLE pulled the "product" because of pirating issues.
Now Nintendo is going to sue the authors of UltraHLE *after* the authors have pulled the software.
They supplied copies of games? That's news to me....
Use the emulator technology to port N64 games to the pc. Then they could make money selling games on more than one platform.
Why would you write a game only ever intended to run on an emulator? Might as well write it to run on a PC to start with (or Mac or whatever).
I believe that Y0SHi's SNES documentation was created entirely through reverse engineering, without access to official Nintendo developers' documentation.
_
Of course, that didn't stop Nintendo from intimidating Y0SHi into discontinuing the documentation.
I actually got one of those coupons. Thing is, by the time the lawsuit was settled, the NES was pretty much dead anyway, so I never got to use that coupon. Anyway I think it was a state attorney general who sued them, rather than a class-action lawsuit, but I could be wrong.
The 'source on paper' argument is something the govt made up to try to save their butts after they got sued. The court decision said that there is no difference for purposes of 1st amendment protection. The govt is appealing that decision.
3D0's business model depended upon *both* hardware and software manufacturers paying pretty major licensing fees - which would not exist in an "open source" model. On the other hand, they also had plenty of marketing hype, which also doesn't exist in an "open source" model. But all this may be academic:
I think that with $300 general-purpose PC's already here, it would not take much effort to create a spec for a $300 box with a specialized (cheap) 3D/graphics/sound chipset and a ROMable pseudo-RTOS version of Linux. Then the trick is just to get people to write games for that platform. But speaking only of hardware, our "open source" platform is already here in the form of the PC clone.
I would predict that if the Dreamcast and PSX2 even survive their US introductions, they will be the last dedicated game consoles. Then the next big thing in videogames will be souped up handheld consoles with wireless multiplayer capability, plus email, scheduling and web, maybe even Java - in other words, something like the itsy only optimized for gaming.
Where are Nintendo, Sega and Sony in all of this? If they're still in the business at all, they'll just be three of the pack. Doubt it? Nintendo's big selling point with the N64 was that it was based on an SGI processor. SGI recently announced they're switching to Intel chips with NT or Linux for the OS. Things don't look pretty for proprietary gaming....
Oh, and by the way, emulators or no emulators, laws or no laws, people will still pirate the games. Neat, huh?
Doom used to be had for $5 in the bargan bin, -- until Doom's popularity shot back up. Now, the stores see that game as still "hot", so it gets on the shelves at a higher price.
id is finished with Doom. They've long ago released the source to the game. (although the level data and such isn't free)
Remember though, MS has given up on dos :)
One has to wonder what Nintendo hopes to gain by such a lawsuit. They should really take into consideration that from a layman's view, this appears to be a large corporation which is using legal manuevering to bully around individuals. So far Nintendo has been lucky in that this situation has not gained much attention outside of web based media. Perhaps someone should take a few minutes to drop a line to some other news media locations.
Does anyone have any contact information for the Nintendo PR representative handling this?
You make the comment that this is like suing S&W for the way that people misuse the S&W product.
As a shooter, I'm sad to report that in New York a jury has agreed that a gun manufacturer is responsible for the illegal misuse of their product. Further, several cities across the country are readying lawsuits against gun manufacturers.
It doesn't seem reasonable/logical to me, but then, these are lawyers we're talking about.
The case isn't over, Sony merely failed to stop Connectix from shipping their emulator with an injunction. Sony still has the opportunity and a ton of funding to chase Connectix to the courthouse.
"Be Honest, Be Yourself, or Be Damned."
"Society everywhere is against the manhood of each of its members."
-Ralph Waldo Emerson
Give me a break? Again all the comments on slashdot are one-sided and bashing Nintendo. They are just trying to protect their cash-cow. There is no denying that 99.9% of the people who use the emulator WILL pirate. Only a few people will actually purchase a game ($50-$70) to play on an emulator. The price of the console is only ~ $129, anyone who was/is going to by a game for the platform oculd easily also afford to purchase thep platform and run the game flawlessy. Sure the emulator is a great technical feat, but its release is only going to promote piracy, plain and simple.
Releasing it before the N64 is an outdated platform is stepping over the line in my opinion. Now the emulation community is directly hurting Nintendo and their game developers cash flow.
Having emulation of current systems is more than a way to play games you
:-).
haven't paid for, it's a way to show makers of closed, proprietary,
un-upgradeable, easily outdatable, and generally ill-conceived console
systems that their way of business is on the way out.
Let's face it, consoles are just such a terrible idea, you pay through
the nose for this thing which is technologically out of date within a
year or two, and has NO PROVISION for upgrading it, making it faster, or
making it able to compete with the newest Super Whatever to come out of
Japan. What's more, each of these systems isn't compatible with the
other, or with anything else, so to play Bushido Blade and Mario64 you
have to pay twice as much (and still don't have anything capable of
running a spreadsheet
I have no problem with paying to have fun with good games. I've bought
starcraft, warcraft, quake, quake two, half life, a host of other games
over my years of computer use, and have felt good for supporting the
creators of such masterful products. That said, there is *no way* I
could afford doing the whole proprietary console thing, where I have to
buy a whole new set of hardware to play Zelda 64, and then I still can't
even play FF7. It would require a $200+ TV (no, I don't have one, I'm
not a tool of corporate advertisers), a $130 console, and a $60 game,
and that is just too much to ask for one game. I do have a computer
capable of running the newest emulators at their full speeds, because I
have to for school and work.
I do, therefore, have both an ideological and financial problem with
closed console systems. So, I do what I can to destroy their hold on
some of the best designers in the gaming industry: I pirate roms and PSX
ISOs, I play them under emulation, and I encourage and help others to do
so as well. The sooner these designers start losing real money, and
taking real hurt because they released their game under some proprietary
format that you have to buy special hardware to support instead of the
standardized PC format, the sooner they will come over from the dark,
closed, monopolistic side, and it dies out completely.
The canonical argument for closed systems is price, and the fact that
they can't be afforded by the average joe (and his kids). This argument
is bullshit. The average joe's family makes $40,000+ a year combined,
more than enough to buy the sub $1000 PC that could play every game made
for any console ever (if the game was compiled for PC). The average
joe's kids *need* a PC for school. They need to be able to
word-process, ask the internet questions, and do everything else a PC
can do and a console can not. And besides, there are vast quantities of
these average joes around. 75,000,000+ consoles were bought over 1998
alone. If just half of these people bought a PC at $900, that would
inject *$33,750,000,000* into the industry. That would increase the
speed of cheapening of hardware a good deal, not to mention starting
lots of price wars. This alone would probably bring the $900 PC I keep
mentioning down to $500 or so.
And what would these consumers have? They would have everything! The
designers, Shigeru and all the rest, would have recognized their folly
in working for one of the flailing console manufacturers and started
designing for these PCs. The average joes would have machines that
could be upgraded for $100 once a year (or less if they were willing to
be less than bleeding edge), and were compatible with all existing and
future PC software. And I, and all of the other freedom loving
crusaders in this world controlled by closed corporate rip-off artists
like Sony and Nintendo would enjoy a victory.
I for one am glad to see this lawsuit happen. With any luck Nintendo will WIN and it will set a precedent for other emulator writers. I thought it was pretty damn INTELLIGENT of the UltraHLE authors to pull their work. I think this, along with the Sony lawsuit, have a chance of setting some decent legal precedents.
NO! All, I repeat ALL conditions are set in LICENSE! Most allow to make backup copies, while some might not! And if they do not allow doing so, you can;t use product, read last clause in licenses: If you do not agree to any article in this license DON'T OPEN PACKAGE!
Maybe you wouldn't think it were "sissy" if YOU were the one facing a prison term and all its attendant pleasures.
The idea is that games written for an emulator will also run on Ninetndo/Sony's console. Opening the huge console user-base to game developers who until recently were unable to develop for the platform because of cost/licensing issues.
If Nintendo want to remain successful, they should simply focus on providing a superior API, and other game development tools, as well as a console. Even if console sales fall because of this, then Nintendo can still cream it by selling their development tools and quality games.
Like Microsoft. they sell Visual C++ and Windows apps. Despite the fact there are lower cost (free!) alternatives to practically all their products, and that MS Applications and OSes are pirated more often than probably anything else, they are still laughing all the way to the bank.
Lets face it, the PC is a pretty powerful gaming platform these days, and at the end of the day Nintendo's business is selling people games. Even though piracy is rife on the internet (always has been, always will be), you don't see id software or Eidos going out of business....
Nintendo better wise up real fast, it was this sort of short-sighted attitude that let Sega gain the upper hand all those years ago, they remind me of Apple. 'It's *OUR* platform, *WE* control it, and *NOBODY* else can mess with it'
Hell, you can get free PCs these days.. it wouldn't be particularly expensive to throw an s3 Savage4 chip on the motherboard of a sub-$500 PC, hook it up to a TV and call that a gaming console.
Only difference is theres nothing on current consoles (PSX or Nintendo64) that can compete with games like Half-Life and Quake II/III as well as all the other cool games in various genres that are really only available on PC. They can't be networked on the internet, and they can't operate as web browsers or other client apps.
And if Nintendo's problem is 'well, we can't write games as good as those, or supply the hardware capability for them to run properly, but we still want to screw people with mediocre products' then i say f*ck em.
The UltraHLE Emulator infringes on a Super Famicon (Nintendo's name in Japan) patent for a memory management unit chip.
Since the first Nintendo machine was released, Nintendo has placed the MMU chip on the cartridges instead of onboard the machine.
The intent of this is two-fold:
(1) They can control the games through control
of the license
(2) They can charge exhoritant rates for the
license of the chips to non-Japanese game
developement companies
In building an emulator that can run ROM images, the UltraHLE developers had to emulate the MMU chip. In doing this, they violated the patent.
In my experience, the law sides with whoever spends the most money.
Moral values, right and wrong, are sadly missing from our courts.
An expensive lawyer simply gets the precedents thrown out as being "irrelevant" on a
technicality that may or (frequently) may not be valid.
And before you say that's not true, let me just say that I've been there. And it's not much
fun holding on to the fuzzy end of the lollypop.
Right. Emulators are illegal? Hmpftt..
HELLO Nintendo??!?!?!?! Wake up you bunch of sad fascists!!!
How do they DARE to appeal to my moral values while they persue nothing but profit on base of some imaginary intellectual property infringement, ruining the lives of a couple of innocent programmers in the process?! While i find the whole concept of intellectual property to be somewhat doubtful, the statement that emulating a computer in itsself is an infringement on this intellectual property is ludicrous! Their behavious is inexcusable, especially since this ultrahle was clearly a hobbyist project!! This is WRONG. I don't care if the law is on their side. If it is, the law is _WRONG_.
And these people should have my respect?
Forget it. They just gained another enemy.
In the years of following the computer and software industry my moral stand on so called software piracy has been shifting slowly but steadily. A couple of years ago it was "its not the right thing to do".
Every time i read a story like this it goes more toward "I don't care if they go broke from illegal copying, they are maffia-like rats anyway. Fsck them. Copy like hell, and lets screw them over the best way we can." I know this doesn't sound civil, nor mature. But if these arrogant software companies are to be considered civil and mature, i'll pass my share in that. I'm infuriated by this ongoing "patent this" and "intellectual property infringement that" bullshit driven by nothing but greed.
ps: i know this is an inflammatory comment. i'm really pissed off by this, but i don't feel like counting to 10 at the moment.
Backup copies of this software are strictly prohibited. Copies are unnecessary to protect your software.
Comments?
Posted by The Mongolian Barbecue:
For nintendo to do anything. Maybe that is why the code was released in the first place- just to make it obvious that Nintendo would accomplish nothing by suing the original creators. Anyway, I will of course continue to pirate nintendo games in order to make a political statement against the lawsuit. It is my duty as a citizen =)
Posted by Lord Kano-The Gangster Of Love:
Who says that every clause in a license agreement is valid, legal or enforceable. If M$ decided to add a clause to the EULA that states
"Using this product implies that the user agrees to forfeit all financial and tangible assets in said user's posession to M$."
Would that be valid? Of course not. Neither is the "No backup" clause.
LK
IANAL, but I don't think that that clause is legally enforceable.
In any case, there is at least one other clear use for the emulator that wouldn't be illegal: N64 software development. I would imagine that it would be usefull even to Nintendo's in house developers (that is, assuming they don't already have their own emulator)
"Remember, there never were pineapple-almond cookies here."
Well, an emulator for those who don't want to pay Nintendo for one. duh.
"Remember, there never were pineapple-almond cookies here."
Truth of the matter is that emulators are inherantly bad for proprietary game consoles (Playstation, Nintendo *, SEGA * et al). It hurts the people making the games by cutting into their revenue and "intellectual rights." I'll be the first to admit, I think its cool to be able to test out a game first before buying, but I've gotten past my days of downloading rom's and onto renting them from Blockbuster (or your other favorite video rental location). That said, I love playing my games on my PC. I actually do have legal copies of certain game console although I don't own the console. I downloaded a rom of the game and play it on an emulator (okay - I bought Pokemon... I like the TV show - sue me!).
------
Clinton made me a Republican. Bush made me a Libertarian. Trump is making me question reality.
I wouldn't be suprised of articles come out with those titles. If nintendo thinks that they can just bully around people who are good programmers, then I think we need to boycott nintendo.
'nuff said.
da w00t. mtfnpy?
What i dont understand about the emulator issue is I thought that sony and nintendo sold their hardware at a loss, one so people will buy their system over any others, and two more systems=more people buying software, which is the real momymaker. So now wouldnt emulators be good (esp the playstation one because you can play the actual disk) by enabling people to buy the softare without the console. I may be wrong, but i thought i rember reading somewhere.
cristiana
Hate to tell you this, but they could be right.
Presumably Nintendo have a clause in the license agreement to their software that prohibits making ROM images or reading the ROM on anything other than a Nintendo console (sort of like reverse-engineering clauses). If this is the case, then UltraHLE may have no purpose other than to play illegally copied games or software read in violation of the agreement. As such, with no legal use, UltraHLE would clearly be illegal.
They'll need all the luck they can get stamping it out... it'll no doubt be on the offshore data havens with all the mp3s and Microsoft Office copies.
this will change nothing, ultraHLE is everywhere and you can find ROM of gb/nes/snes/n64 or whatever, everywhere on the net...
it's a pity Nintendo do this anyhow.
--
"Science will win because it works." - Stephen Hawking
sure, you can find emulator for almost everything, ZX81, ZX Spectrum, Commodore 16/64/128 and vic20, Amstrad CPC464/664/6128, AppleII, Macintosh (there's even commercial one), BBC, and console like gameboy, nes, snes, genesis, master system, playstation, etc etc etc.
for "old" computers (i have a ZX81, an Amstrad 6128 both real and emulator) almost every games are free because companies that made it does not exist anymore or agree to give them for free (so it's legal), for "new" systems you can find games in store and buy it, and? gameboy is still alive even in color and there's emulator for dos/win/unix and hundreds of ROM since years!!! and nintendo did nothing against it!
i really hope Nintendo will lost.
--
"Science will win because it works." - Stephen Hawking
? the only console i have had in my life was in black & white with pong and things like this...
i prefer a powerful PC! i don't like console, there's no keyboard and prompt!
--
"Science will win because it works." - Stephen Hawking
not with Amstrad games, you can (almost) find everyone of them on free public anonymous FTP mirrored everywhere in the world
--
"Science will win because it works." - Stephen Hawking
When somebody shoots your sister, you don't get angry at Smith & Wesson. You get angry at the shooter.
I think this is a perfect analogy to show how silly this whole thing is.
--
Fuck the system? Nah, you might catch something.
It's simple: I'm not paying $100 for a game-only system with half the resolution, half the rendering capabilities, and a fraction of the memory, of my $1000 general purpose computer.
I will, however, pay $70 or whatever outrageous amount they're charging for Zelda 64 if I can then grab the ROM off the net and play it on UltraHLE/Wine (or even just on Windows).
Nintendo's just pissed because they crippled their system by using cartridges instead of CD-ROMs, adding $25+ to each game's manufacturing costs and cutting game data size 10-fold, all to prevent game reproduction; and they still can't believe that they failed totally (and were even counter-productive, since the smaller ROMs are more pirate-friendly over the net than Playstation CDs).
...And some of us who helped develop both that machine and the never-released 64-bit follow-on, M2, are still pretty cheesed about it. But that's another flame...
Schwab
Editor, A1-AAA AmeriCaptions
The cartridge loader on my NES went bad long before the SNES came out and I moved on. To get it to work now you have to spend half an hour jiggling the cartridge and console to get all the proper connections made. And my experience was not unique. That's why none of the machines since have the same slide in and press down system.
I use an emulator now to play my NES games (legally) too, and I ain't going to apologize for it, either.
I mean, let's face it: mario 64, Zelda 64, NFL Blitz, Goldeneye -- that's all they have to show after over 2 years of existence? I've owned a N64 for over a year, and only own 3 games for it(Goldeneye, Zelda, Blitz). I've owned a Saturn for 1 1/2 months now, and haev purchased 6 games for it. Nintendo has been sucking hind tit for quite a while. They're just upset cause someone found a way to outdate their $150 piece of hardware for free (if you own a PC that can handle it)
DrH
--DrH, the Sandwich with the Ph.D.
You are aware that Nintendo Company Ltd. is over 100 years old, right?
:-)
somehow, I don't think that OSS has been out _that_ long.
Just look at Mac emulators (commercial) that designed to emulate PC. As far as I know legal system in States is based on precendent, and once someone won case claiming emulation is illegal, it will be applied to all other cases. And "surely" all those poor dudes with Mac's use emulators to run stolen software like games.
This case will lose in court for sure IF it gets there. IMHO, what Nintendo is trying to do is to scare to death two teens/20+ with their legal machine.
alexc
Join Majestic-12 Distributed Search Engine
I saw plans once for an adapter to connect a PSX memory card to a floppy drive cable. The same sort of thing ought to work for N64 game cartridges. Nintendo could build something like this, bundle it with a good emulator (like ultra HLE), and open up a whole new market (people with computers but not an N64). If I didn't have to buy the damn console I would be playing Zelda 64 right now. The downside is this would make it easier for ROM pirates to save ROM images onto a computer (which *IS* legal, if you own the cartridge, despite Nintendo's assertions to the contrary)
0 1 - just my two bits
I'm wondering whatever happend to freespeech. It's almost the same thing as when big companies sue people who have domain names with some words that the company registered. I think there should a petition to promote Freespeech to a higher level, to protect the people from all this nonsense.
Hi all,
:| For one thing,
Hmm... personally, I think the authors of UltraHLE
are great coders for creating such an emulator.
However, I think their placing their code on the
web where they knew people who could use it to
run pirated roms DOES put them in a position where
they should be held responsible for the
repercussions of such an action. Just because
they pull it off the web doesn't free them from
responsibilities.
While this doesn't put them in the same boat as
warez users, common sense would suggest that
any one in the emulation scene would know about
pirating. But then again, who knows. One could
be wrong.
Nintendo, I think, is barking up the wrong tree
at the wrong time. Attacking UltraHLE, who has
already made a gesture of good faith in pulling
their code only invites attacks on Nintendo
itself. It shows a flaw in character and will
probably hurt them in the peoples' perception
of them and their products.
As for the copyright issues, some things come to
mind. First of all, Nintendo claims that UltraHLE's
creation would have required bypassing of certain
security features. Personally, I'm pretty curious
as to what this feature is, exactly.
If the security feature prevents any form of
"personality" replication of components, subsystems,
and rom images on the chips of the N64 units, and
they can prove this, then they are right. UHLE
may have broken US federal laws in circumventing
copyprotection features.
Rom images are another area. True, in the past,
there was a precedent set. The emulation of one
platform's hardware so that the software from one
platform can be played on another hardware platform
was deemed okay.
However, how those rom images are obtained is
something more of a gray area.
how exactly did someone get the image of the rom
from the cartridge/circuit and into digital form
for copying. If the cartridge had copyprotection
on it to prevent direct reads/copies of the
roms, then this may violate US federal law in
regards to circumventing copyprotection methods as well.
It just depends on how it was done and the means
by which it was done.
To be quiet honest, I believe the arguments of some
are right in that emulators CAN increase sales of
games of the platform being emulated. Whether it
affects sale of the hardware is another matter.
In the end, it all comes down to two things.
Rights and Money.
Emulators mean money. Selling software means money.
And apparently, the right to that software is
quite important as well.
I'm sure that most people agree that warez trading
and pirating does have an effect on a company.
How exactly is probably where most people diverge
in opinions.
Personally, I think it DOES hurt a company when
pirating happens. As for the thought that the
lost sales due to pirating was not a sale which
would have been made anyway, is just an excuse
warez traders use.
If there was no potential sale, then why is there
a market for pirated goods? No, those goods ARE
in demand. Just that when they are available for
a lower price, in this case, heavily reduced
prices, more people are willing to buy. This is
simple economics. Lower the price and the threshold
for purchases changes.
In the end, though, it is the courts which will
decide the issue's legality. But it will be the
users who decide some of the more "messy" issues.
More specifically, responsible users. Warez folk
are getting a free ride while bootleggers and
piraters are getting literally pure profits at
the cost of legitimate companies who have spent
countless hundreds of millions in research and
marketing.
Those who think that warez and pirating doesn't
affect the industry, maybe it would help for them
to start a company and see how much of an affect
it would have when someone rips their ideas.
Just another two cents.
-
- Wing
- Reap the fires of the soul.
- Harvest the passion of life.
- Wing
- Reap the fires of the soul.
- Harvest the passion of life.
How could they not think that they'd run into legal issues? I might not be smart enough to write an emulator, but I'm certainly not brainless enough to know that it would probably cause a lot of legal/financial troubles down the line.
If it was just for the fun and challenge of writing such an emulator, they should have just distributed UltraHLE anonymously under an alias instead of posting it on their website.
They've been ripping the consumer off forever, and now that the consumer has a chance to fight back they get scared and sue.
Has anyone from Nintento ever forced, coerced, or otherwise made you shell out $60 for a game? NO! This is the market, people, and Nintendo isn't to blame for this, the consumers are. Your suggestion here, that it's OK to rip off Nintendo because they've been "ripping off the consumer," is rediculous. If it's such a rip-off, don't buy the game. Anyone who claims that Nintendo is ripping off the consumer, and then turns right around and pirates the ROM in retaliation, is a complete hypocrite.
I can't help but wonder how far this IP crap can go. Where does someone draw the line. Could the makers of WINE be sued? What about SAMBA? Both products simulate (emulate?) a popular MS product which reduces the number of sales MS gets for their products. I can see it now, a few years down the road and the creators of sendmail get sued for
.....
A) interfering with the sales of MS Exchange(or whatever their crappy smtp server is called)
B) patent infringement against the 1999 MS patent for transfering electronic messages across a computer network, based upon their patent for using a medium to transfer information between two devices, based upon their patent for using a form of communication to transfer information between two objects, based upon their patent for
Let nintendo know how you feel.
nintendo@nintendo.com
Why bother with an emulator at all. I'm not sure how the catridges in the nintendo are mfg but it seems that someone could post instructions via usenet for building a generic cartridge. ROM burners aren't that scarce. I'm sure a person could find someone to copy the ROM. It may cost the pirate a little more to get setup, but the net result is the same. Less sales to nintendo.
I haven't messed with WINE in quite some time. But I seem to remember that you could use files from your MS Windows install to provide some of the Windows functionality that WINE didn't support. It could be argued that people would be encouraged to pirate those pieces and not purchase a copy of Windows.
I currently have several NT workstations use a CVS copy of SAMBA as their PDC. This PDC functionality is not a publicly available spec. The SAMBA team has, to the best of my knowledge, reverse engineered the protocol used by the PDC server while communicating with it's clients. Nintendo is claiming damages from lost revenue due to piracy. If they win this case it seems very likely that MS could claim the "emulation" of a NT PDC by SAMBA would encourge people not to purchase NT server. The API of Nintendo and the protocol used by NT PDC are both basically an interface to some service.
The remark about sendmail was simply an exageration about how bad things could get once this "emulation is illegal" mentality take hold. But it really as far out as it seems. Take cascading style sheets for example. The W3C whose policy, from their own web page is "W3C is dedicated to creating specifications and software that are available to the public for any purpose and without fee or royalty." did a great deal of the grunt work on CSS technology, and MS, being the bottom feeding leeches on inovation they have proven themselves to be time and time again, patented the technology. Where does this leave the members of the W3C that helped create the technology? In violation of a patent, thats where.
Sony lost its suit against the people who made a commercial playstation emulator for the Mac, so
I don't Nintendo will win its suit against people
who made an emulator and aren't even charging
for it.
Now if Nintendo went after sites that distributed
N64 Roms they might have a chance...
would the first amendment protect a source code release of the emulator ? I mean, the source certainly does note violate any copyright laws right ?
It would be a nice "up yours nintendo message".
Hah! And ten years from now, when Nintendo doesn't exist or doesn't support the N64, and neither do the game manufacturers, and I drop my cartridge on the floor, where do I go?
To my trusty CD-ROM backup and UltraHLE, that's where.
Sony & Nintendo are extremely stringent about what games are released for thier consoles. They can get away with this because they control the production medium.
Should UltraHLE/SGS become a viable console alternative, I can now produce a game, and market the rom/game image w/o ever having to have Nintendo or Sony approve it, or take a slice of the profits. A plus for garage developers, a minus for the industry giants.
I for one am glad to see this lawsuit happen. With any luck Nintendo will lose and it will set a precedent for other emulator writers. I thought it was pretty damn sissy of the UltraHLE authors to pull their work rather than stand up for what they wrote. I think this, along with the Sony lawsuit, have a chance of setting some decent legal precedents.
It is funny that Nintendo thinks that the number one cause of N64 game piracy are emulators. They do not realize that there are devices being sold all over the world that will let you store ROMs into a Zipdisk and play the games directly from these copies.
Nintendo 64 sucks anyway. There are no real role playing games that has been released in N64 that is as good as Final Fantasy VII or Final Fantasy VIII and Zelda 64 simply sucks. Maybe if they started releasing better games and spent their money on real talent instead of hiring stupid lawyers then they would probably do better in their business.
Emulators/ROMs are to game makers what mp3s are to the music industry: a paradigm shift that neither is willing to accept, regardless of profit potential, and a shift that both are helpless to stop.
Once these industries are dragged, kicking and screaming, into the new marketplace, they'll conveniently forget that they didn't invent everything all by themselves. Hell, they'll probably try to patent it.
-tak
We can't, for example, put turboshaft engines in our cars and drive them on the freeway,
Depends on where you live. If you live in a place like California, this may be true. Where I live, the defacto rule is pretty much that if it has a place to screw a license plate onto it, it is street legal. We have no inspections, ever. No emissions checks, ever. Registration and licensing can be (and normally are) done entirely by mail. Licensing for kit cars, replicas, home built hot-rods, and highly modified production cars is not handled much differently, all you have to do is fill out a request for a title and pay a fee -- no inspection or appearance in person necessary.
If you can build a car with a turboshaft engine that even comes close to sane sound levels, you would have no trouble licensing it or driving it on the freeway around here.
or modify aircraft flight characteristics, etc.
You haven't ever heard about experimental aircraft or ultralights then. I know several people who are into those hobbies, and they don't have to follow the same rules as for regular commercial aircraft. Ultralights in particular, hardly have to follow any rules at all.
This lawsuit is completely and utterly bogus, and will only serve to stifle the creativity of some obviously talented coders. Unfortunately, I think it may have a fair chance in court if Nintendo manages to convince everyone that emulators are illegal and exist only to play illegal, pirated games.
C'mon Nintendo, lighten up. The thought that people are going to quit buying N64 games and download warezed roms for their PCs is absurd.
Haven't PC game developers been dealing with piracy for many years? Somehow PC games remain a multi-million-dollar industry, somebody must still buy them.
I wonder what makes Nintendo and Sony think their software is so unique as a target of piracy. They seem to take it for granted that if they have a proprietary hardware platform, no one will ever be able to pirate their software.
Time to wake up guys. Piracy happens, but it hasn't killed the PC software industry yet, and it surely won't kill you.
Hemos point was not that his lack of a Zelda purchase would actually effect the Nintendo bottom line. It was, rather, that Nintendo could stand to sell more games by leaving emulation alone.
Sure. Ridiculous.
That's like signing a Non-disclosure agreement that bans you from working for a competitor for a full year after leaving an employer, without compensating you for it. The law clearly holds (As far as I am aware) that you must recieve specific compensation for a moratorium like that.
It's not a binding statement. How else are you supposed to protect your software? What if the software goes out of distribution? Oh gee.. we didn't think of that. At least with a backup copy you could have a new ROM burnt for you after Nintendo had given up that product.
---
"Eternal vigilance is the price of Freedom."
The License agreement would then not hold up in a court of law.
Again, there is nothing illegal about an emulator like this. It is designed to mimic the behavior of a N64 console. Nintendo suing these boys would be like Microsoft suing the creators of Wine. It doesn't matter WHAT Nintendo puts in their license agreements. Since the authors cannot be shown to have done this for the sole purpose of pirating software, then the case is almost non-existant. Their license agreements I am sure are as harsh as they can make them, but they will not stand up to the test of legal scrutiny.
---
"Eternal vigilance is the price of Freedom."
The simple fact is that emulators, and the concept of emulators have been around far longer, and will stay here far longer than Nintendo will ever dream to be. The plain truth is that an emulator is designed so that software can be run on various platforms, much the same way different ports of software come about.
If this was such a BIG deal, Macro$haft would have sued the developers of dosemu long ago, for the development of a MS based dos emulator.
Nintendo, think about how ludicrous your accusations are. Your argument is the same as suing Smith & Wessen for selling guns that kill. How can you sue someone for making the information available, it is up to the end user to abide by the license agreements.
--nuff said
think before you write, it'll save me moderator points.
The following is an email conversation with Nintendo's online manager. BTW, kudos and honor to whomever can get me the email addresses for Nintendo's legal and execs.
I'm sure you're well aware of the potential for abuse of an Email address
(spam, etc). Plus, sending a letter takes a little more thought and
effort. For these reasons, I'm not at liberty to release Email addresses
for Nintendo's legal department. If someone feels strongly enough about
this issue, I would encourage them to write a well-thought out letter. I
know it's the 90's but people do still send mail the "old fashioned" way!
Also, please be aware that because I am not a member of Nintendo's legal
department, all of my statements should not be taken to be official
responses from Nintendo on this issue. Thanks.
DANO
At 01:04 PM 2/12/99 -0500, you wrote:
>Hey,
>
>Thanks for the snail mail address, but most of your customers have moved on
>to this thing we call the 90s. Does your legal department HAVE email
>addresses; do they LIVE in the 90s? Also, this message will be reposted on
>Slashdot.org for your and your consumers viewing pleasure. Opinions about
>your legal decisions abound there and Nintendo's position WILL NOT BE
>TOLERATED.
>
>-----Original Message-----
>From: Dan Owsen [SMTP:dano@nintendo.com]
>Sent: Friday, February 12, 1999 1:01 PM
>To: jeremy_huckeba@ypb.com
>Subject: Re: EMULATION OF THE N64
>
>I'm not going to address your comments other than to say that in case you
>didn't notice, Sony is taking legal action against Connectix in connection
>with their Macintosh emulation. Believe me, companies don't take things to
>court unless there is a firm, legal backing behind their arguments, and an
>excellent chance at winning.
>
>Leave the legal wrangling to the lawyers. I don't have anything to do with
>this. If you wish to address some comments to Nintendo's lawyers, write to
>them at:
>
>Nintendo of America Legal Department
>4820 150th Ave NE
>Redmond, WA 98052
>
>DANO
>
>At 12:41 PM 2/12/99 -0500, you wrote:
>>Nintendo
>>
>>It has come to my attention and to the attention of many of my hardcore
>>Nintendo gaming fans that you are attempting to quash a LEGAL, let me
>>repeat that, LEGAL, emulator of the Nintendo 64 for the PC. I want you to
>>know that if you pursue this suit, myself and my gaming friends will make
>>an Internet-wide call to all gamers on all gaming sites, to push for the
>>source code of the emulator to be released. We will also rally together
>>the Nintendo gamers against the greedy bastards at Nintendo that continue
>>to pursue this futile attempt at forgoing the US legal system. In
>>addition, we will call for third-party hardware developers to utilize the
>>source code to develop a cheap, liscense-free version of the Nintendo 64
>>and encourage game developers to write for that platform as it will be
>>compatable with your product, thus allowing them to forgo your outrageous
>>liscensing fees. In short, the laugh will be on you. If you continue,
>and
>>Sony doesn't quash you first, your loyal customers will. If the call is
>>made it will be picked up almost immediately by CNN and other news
>stations
>>hungry to see another company flailing. Dont fuck this up, as you have so
>>many things in the past. Your customers are waiting for you.
>>
>>
>>EMULATORS AREN'T ILLEGAL AND WE, THE USERS OF THE PC AND THE N64, WILL NOT
>>HAVE YOU TELLING US WHAT OUR RIGHTS TO THE PRODUCT WE PURCHASED FROM YOUR
>>COMPANY ARE. CEASE AND DESIST THESE ACTIONS OR YOUR CUSTOMERS WILL TAKE
>>APPROPRIATE ACTION AGAINST YOU.
>>
>>A former loyal customer...
>>
>>
>---------------------------------------------
>Dan Owsen
>Nintendo Online Manager
>www.nintendo.com
The creators of the emulator only intended it as an educational attempt to prove it can be done, but releasing the emulator to the general public was a huge and irresponsible mistake.
The argument presented about the use of emulators to play previously owned material on your own computer is valid to a point, to expect every one who does own such an emulator to do this is niave in the extreeme.
Most people who get these emulators are more intrested in playing the game then paying for it. They will grab copies of roms they do not own, and keep them as long as they like.
Nearly all of those who wanted to grab the Ultra HLE did not want to see the result of 2 brilliant programmers hard work. They just wanted to be able to play the N64 games without paying for them.
I personally cannot approve of the idea of emulating a console that the creators are still supporting. No one cares if the NES or SNES consoles are emulated today, as they are no longer seriously supported by either Nintendo or the Developers. But Nintendo is still supporting the N64. The loss of potential customers from people having emulators would put a large dent into the profitability of the console. That is why Nintendo is sueing.
They have every right to protect themselves and their developors from the illegal distribution of the roms. It does not matter that the creators of the Ultra HLE will make no money from this. It matters that Nintendo will lose money from it.
END COMMUNICATION