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Torvalds ABCNews Transcripts
yuri-g sent us a link to the
transcripts of last nights ABCNews Chat with Linus.
While he doesn't say what Transmeta does, he talks about the
Cult of Linus, Linux on Consumer Electronics, Distributions,
and the ever popular LiGnuX debate. Somewhat lengthy, but
a good summary, with some new info too.
I love his comments about this LiGnuX BS!!! It's Linux!
He had a lot of interesting things to say, and while I personally wanted one of my questions posted, I'm glad that the chat was moderated.
Given the circumstances, I'd say Linus is one ubergeek who knows how to present himself. Answering that many questions in front of an audience that topped out at more than 600 people is tough to do.
Bravo, Linus!
-----------------------
Anonymous? Paul Erdös studied under his statue!
ooh oooh (throwing underwear) linus! linus!
ooooooh
Come on, puddingheads. Linus is a human just like anyone else.
If you are still into the teen mode of idolization, I suggest you move to nearest beach and bake your brains all day long.
Okay, rocket scientist. As someone pointed out, you're probably trolling, but I'll take the bait.
1. Linux "in a nuclear power plant" != "running the reactor". Power plants are electricity generation utilities, i.e. businesses. As such, they have all of the usual business functions, such as billing, HR, accounts receivable, *network administration*, etc.
I seriously doubt that you'd find a reactor being controlled by any type of *nix.
2. Your semi-hysterical view of the possible failures involved in nuclear power are typical of someone with little knowledge of them.
3. If you are going to post where a lot of technically-minded, scientifically literate, and well educated people can read it, try to include some facts with your post.
4. Believe it or not, failure to capitalize and bad grammar make you look like a moron. Tomorrow at school, get a book on english grammar and study up. Ask a teacher to help you with the big words.
No-one calls the kernel LiGnuX, or at least none of the public figures here. RMS calls the distributions of Linux GNU/Linux.
Daniel
Er..no...most of us DO use X.
Linux is a kernel. The Operating System *is* exactly that (at least in the Unix world). X, the gnu utils, etc. are not a part of the OS. By your logic, we should consider any Unix system that's running mostly GNU utils a gnu system. Forget it. It doesn't work that way.
Solaris, AIX, Irix, etc. are all operating systems. Linux is the free-ware equivalent.
The GNU utils *should* stand on their own. Hell, they don't need Linux. They do make Linux a better OS. Certainly. But Gnu is Gnu and Linux is Linux. Once Gnu is finished with HURD, they can call it GNU/Hurd if they want. They can call it 'bozo the clown' for all we care...
Bravo, you prove your own conclusion (people are so ... stupid)
reminds me of.
a guy on another.
message board who. never composed an enitre.
sentence on one line.
or capitalized anything.
and threw in random. punctuation as if.
he had no idea where to place periods.
(hint: subject-verb-object-period)
Organization of thought into coherent written expression is a skill one must develop to avoid ending up as a night-manager at Denny's.
Let's not be a community. Let's be an autonomous collective of motivated individuals who happen to share an affinity for a certain unix-like operating system.
S'OK by me, whatcha gonna call that collective in a single word?
Does anyone have any information on this? I hear they're going to take on Intel and make x86 clone chips.
/.
FYI: Shuttle runs Unix. So does many of the Ground Ops systems. Solaris in fact.
AC
. . . and before that, with IBM.
And even before that, Vannevar Bush predicted that some day there would be computers the size of the Empire State Building.
It ain't over 'till it's over.
Worshipping obsolete technology (e.g. Linux) at the expense of forward motion is foolish anyway.
Does anyone have any information on this?
Is that a serious question?
It is legendary that nobody knows what Transmeta is up to. They're probably not up to anything terribly special (presumably cool and fun, but that doesn't mean "earth-shattering"). The secrecy is a great mechanism for creating interest -- "he who would be considered wise keeps his own counsel" and all that -- but it's really just a bass-ackwards and remarkably effective publicity stunt.
Uhm, dude, dropping a few tons of conventional explosives on a nuclear power plant DOES NOT under ANY circumstances cause a nuclear explosion. This is because there is NO weapons-grade nuclear material whatsoever in a nuclear power plant. It is _impossible_ for the material in a nuclear plant to reach critical mass. It simply isn't dense enough.
Through the history of nuclear power, there have been accidents but they have not even approached the loss of human life and resources caused by _traditional_ power plants during that time. A coal furnace is far more dangerous than a modern nuclear reactor.
Get some facts and come back. The media is wrong.
Do you believe the 'important video' is really important?
We had a Linux-only libc for a while.
I know of a recent MS hire who's running 2 linux boxes and 0 MS at home.
This is great. Maybe some of the Borg are planning an escape.
The HURD really doesn't matter any more. It's time has come and gone.
And you know this because?...
I can see the Hurd having relevence in small footprint applications, like embedded systems.
Micro-kernels generally suffer from minor performance degradations as opposed to monolithic kernels, thus causing them to have fallen out of favour.
However, for certain hard real-time applications, as long as you're fast enough, it doesn't matter how fast you are since data to process arrives at a bounded rate anyway. Combined with a small footprint, this is ideal for embedded systems.
Emacs gave RMS hand trouble.
The HURD is a decade behind schedule.
Cygnus (not the FSF) does gcc and libc.
RMS is also a selfish, rude, hairy bastard
with communist (really, I've met him) politics.
This is not someone who can lead any sort of
Linux development effort.
Alan Cox is the only person who qualifies.
David Miller and others have the technical
ability, but not the right personality.
You would be suprised at how many MS employees a) read /. reguarly, and b) use linux at home.
Its an Operating System, not a religion.
Q: How many nuclear plant workers does it take to change a lightbulb?
A: Six
Calling Linux the midwife would be beyond stupid for one reason...
:).
Since when does the baby get born before the midwife? Duh
The rest of my car? Like hell.
The rest of a car would be the GUI, the X windows system. And despite what the maniacs say, X != GNU.
The Linux community would certainly take a blow emotionally if someone like Linux were to pass on. Perhaps the IT industry in general, because even his "opponents" must have a healthy respect for him.
However, speaking strictly of Linux in general, it would not affect how things go. It might on a very very short term whilst people mourn, but that's it.
We have a very strong community. We would survive. Our OS would survive. Things like that will never take a fall.
Take a look at the Amiga community. I still know many an amiga fanatic, even my old man is one. Despite the death of Commodore, and being passed around to god knows how many companies, their community has survived. Imagine where they would be right now if they had open access to modify everything!
We may, linus won't. Linus built the kernel. Not the system. RMS is being a fool. The Linux kernel *is* the Linux operating system. The Linux *platform* makes extensive use of GNU (and yes, X). There is no reason whatsoever to use GNU/Linux or LiGnuX (or whatever) since GNU had nothing to do with the kernel. Shall we call it GNU/Windows since Cygnus did a port of the Gnu utilities to windows? NO. GNU/OS/2? NO. I think you get the point....
RMS is more important to free software than Linus. But if RMS kicks off, we still have the FSF to keep things on track. Linus should either will his code to the FSF or start some other organization that will maintain his work in the spirit of free software. If he doesn't we've always got HURD. Free software will go on with or with out linux.
I had a friend who interned at MS last summer. When he came back I gave him crap about being assimilated by Bill and that whole thing. He suprised me by saying that there is a silent majority within the ranks of MS who see their jobs as just that, a job. He even said there are a couple guys there who love linux and use it often.
Remember there's more to MS than Office and WinXX, there are some people there with high levels of *nix experience that work on projects such as interopability between NT & *nix.
If the guy is interested in gaming on Linux, thats a valid question no matter where you work
com-mu-ni-ty n. 1. A group of people living in the same locality... 2. A social group or class. 3. Similarity: a community of interests
Community is a valid term to describe what is going on. That the media and others overuse the term does not make it any less acurate to describe an autonomous collective of motivated individuals who happen to share an affinity for a certain unix-like operating system.
I'm sure the term 'collective' conjures up positive images in the minds of those who would seek to demean us.
Get over it.
I did some moderation on this section, so I have to post as an AC. That aside, I think that something needs to be said in response to the individual above who posted defamatory remarks about the nuclear power industry.
First, it should be observed that there have not been any problems with the nuclear industry in the US despite well over 50 years of nuclear power generation. Yes, Three Mile Island had a partial meltdown, but the total radiation exposure for the residents of the surrounding area as a result of the meltdown was far less than the total radiation exposure of the residents of Colorado during the same period of time. Read some of the books by Bernard L. Cohen.
I've studied this issue up and down, and the only reasonable conclusion is that with proper safeguards, nuclear power is completely harmless and totally efficient. Note that I said proper safeguard. The Chernobyl disaster is an example of not using proper safeguards. In the US, not only do plants have safeguards in place, but due to the irrational fears encouraged by the anti-nuclear activists, the NRC has actually put in place measures that are overly tight.
The regulations in effect are so bureaucratic today that it takes six different people to change a light bulb at some plants. And that's just to change a light bulb. The control room operators get periodic drug tests, and failure of a drug test results in the operator being fired (not to mention that he/she cannot get any other jobs in the industry). Did you know that eating a poppyseed roll even two weeks before a drug test will make you test positive for opium use? Let's think about that one for a minute....
As for the computers, well, that's a different matter. For the obvious reasons, nuclear plants use stable computing systems. One power plant that I know of uses VAX/VMS machines. We've seen the stability tests for Linux and UNIX versus NT. I haven't seen any stability tests for VAX/VMS, but I imagine that such tests would compare with UNIX. Would you believe that some of these plants actually have Windows- and NT-based PC's? Not in any critical application of course....they're usually used to model the fuel dyanmics or monitor the control systems. Wouldn't Linux be a far more reasonable choice for these systems? Probably.
Did you know that the critical systems in the power plant are almost all mechanical? SCRAMing the plant works by closing an electrical current to the control rods, dropping them into the core. And in the US, the control rods are usually above the core, so gravity can be used if something fails. The pumping mechanisms are mechanical, as is the turbine. When computers don't have direct access to the core, suggesting that computer failure would cause a meltdown (let alone the deaths of "millions" of people) is laughable.
Sometimes I think that people on slashdot need to do a little more research before spouting off. While I haven't actually worked in the nuclear industry, I know someone who does, and have watched him work. He explained to me what he does, and has given me a good feel for the way things work. A couple of weeks ago he caught a human error in a company that will go unmentioned. The error had happened at another plant, (notice that human error is almost always the problem) resulting in the termination of a high-level manager. By finding the error himself, this man that I know was rewarded with an unheard-of lump sum of cash (to the tune of double the average cash reward for finding serious problems).
How many ways do I need to say it? The industry is safe. The computers are not a potential problem even if they are running Windows or NT . And people really need to know their ground before spouting off....
"Oh, Gods, not the lignux thing again..."
--synaptik
HSJ$$*&#^!#+++ATH0
NO CARRIER
I commonly call my car "my big ol' V-8 wagon"...
Posted by Mike@ABC:
Never underestimate the power of the Linux community. That was, by far, the most popular chat held in the Technology section. Linus was a true sport in the face of nearly 1,000 questions -- 500 of which were posted during the hour he was on. My thanks to all the slashdot folks who stopped by.
And, just to answer the post above about the nuclear power plants....would you prefer they were run on WinNT? Just food for thought.
Boy I really want to have Linus over for dinner. If your ever in St.Louis my wife makes fried chicken. ( bring the family )
Last one in jail is a fascist.
>This will become more of a problem as the Hurd matures. The HURD really doesn't matter any more. It's time has come and gone. History has passed it by. The future is with Linux and the various BSD's, not the HURD. Get over it.
I drive a V-8...
Well, mine's a Hemi...
Yeah, well, I've got a Turbo...
"She's real fine, my 409"... Q.E.D.
Some points are overlooked here:
1) GNU is much more than a set of tools. As a proper noun it is the name that Richard Stallman gave to a free operating system, and as an adjective it describes software produced under the auspicies of the GNU Project, who's primary goal the is realization of a free operating system.
A strong case can be made that anyone who has used the GNU tools to put together a free operating system should pay homage to the GNU Project by adopting the GNU name for the operating system.
Now this does not mean that one has to do this, but it is a nice way to honour Richard Stallman's vision of free software. I encourage those who take position, but am not particularly upset if someone doesn't.
The GPL doesn't require it, though RMS may regret this.
2) Linux properly refers to the O/S/ kernel. Calling the entire operating system "Linux" is somewhat of a mis-nomer. Qualifying Linux by the name of the dustributor is still less than satisfactory. This will become more of a problem as the Hurd matures.
Now, personally I think that the only thing that should be called GNU/Linux, without any chance for argument, would be a "Linux" distribution released by the GNU Project, or released with their blessing. Debian GNU/Linux fits this bill.
Furthermore, if the GNU Project does not retain sufficient control over the GNU moniker, it may be used to describe operating systems that are not completely free. This would be a bad thing (and an insult to RMS).
In Liberty, Rene
Maybe this is a good reason: so the community won't go through crippling emotional spasms if Linus has to give up control over the kernel for some reason.
Similarly, so the rest of the world doesn't think that Linux is going to take a major downturn once Linus is out of it. Confidence in Linux could drop massively - people aren't inclined to go with a computing solution that doesn't seem to have a future.
In practically every major press report about Linux it's described as "the operating system created by Linus Torvalds" - I think this is bad not just for the reasons above, but because it's horribly inaccurate and unfair on the hundreds of others who have contributed. Remember that Linux has one of the largest kernel dev teams in the world and this is one of its strengths. I think the idea that it was developed by one guy in his spare time does more harm than good. (Though it's also good that Linus gets the credit he deserves for starting and managing the whole thing.)
If I remember correctly, it was RMS himself whom invented the 'lignux' name when he released a version of Emacs that generated 'lignux' as the OS in the configuration. Or something like that, I was pretty new to Linux and GNU stuff at the time and didn't have a clear understanding of exactly what it is he made generate the 'lignux' identifier. But there was a huge shitstorm on the GNU and Linux newsgroups about it. In fact, a quick DejaNews search reveals it was the 19.31 release of Emacs, released in late May, 1996. Here is a URL for those of you interested in this piece of nomenclature history:
= 157611483
http://www.dejanews.com/[ST_rn=qs]/getdoc.xp?AN
This was the first round of arguments concerning Linux, GNU and the proper nomenclature and it was started by a unilateral act by RMS. It is amazing reading these old threads years later how the arguments on either side basically have not changed one bit since the inception of the debate.
My favorite from the time was 'since GNU software makes so much of the WWWeb work, why don't we call it the WWWegnub?" I didn't see that particular post in my searches, but I remember laughing hysterically when I first read it.
Cheers
Eric Geyer
corduroy@sfo.com
Kids needs heroes...and Linus is a perfect hero.
Instead of crackers breaking in to computers... Or game crackers... why don't have Linus as role model.
But as he is (almost) always political correct in his statements, he sees that a lot of people do a lot of work on the Linux OS and he gets the credits. So it is his obligation to tell the world that he alone didn't made Linux possible.
I don't believe that Microsoft workers are evil (just a bit misguided), and the question was well founded. There aren't a lot of games for Linux.
PS.
Yesterday I bought my first Linux game (Civilization CTP)
BORG
Its spelt "L-I-N-U-X", but pronunced as "Free Beer"
Lignux! That's it! From now on, I'm calling it Lignux. Who's with me here?
i was just reading the transcript and saw that that's exactly what was being suggested (except witht he extra xfree bit). sorry about the noise guys.
hehe, Did you really Expect him to?
-- Give him Head? Be a Beacon?
-- Give him Head? Be a Beacon? :P)
(If you can't figure out how to E-Mail me, Don't.
Ken Thomson, author of Unix, recently criticized Linux as "unreliable" and poorly written. What do you think?
When the heck was this? Anybody have links/more info? Was it posted on /. and I slept through it?
I always thought that programmers died by being hit by buses. Most places I have worked seemed concerned about that in particular ;)
Linus' response to calling Linux LiGnuX: ;)
"Your midwife doesn't select the name of your babies.."
RMS is gonna have a fit over that one
The kernel should be called Linux. That's what it is. My system runs Debian GNU / Linux because that's what _it_ is. The Linux kernel with like 99% GNU software. A better term for the OS would just be GNU because most of the software is just that. Calling the OS Linux is kind of like calling windows kernel32. As for the X Windows part of Lignux, what the hell? You can easily run a system without X. Most of the time I don't use it. You'd be hard pressed not to use at least a few GNU things.
Linus is a popular figure and is admired, nay, revered by the community. How could this be an
:)
undesirable thing?
Argh! Enough of this crap about 'the community!' While the collective actions of its more vocal users are important to the continuing growth and outreach potential of linux, they are not more important than the functionality of the OS to a single user.
I think that might be what Linus was getting at. If not, well, there's my opinion. Community is a buzzword, and is becoming as damning as it is encouraging. We've got the mass-media dolts saying things like "well, the linux community is pushing for linux in the enterprise!" Total crap. Let's not be a community. Let's be an autonomous collective of motivated individuals who happen to share an affinity for a certain unix-like operating system.
IMHO, the diversity of linux users and developers is far, far more important than our similiarites. Viva la differenace! Down with the followers.
i browse at -1 because they're funnier than you are.
Midwife/Baby is probably not the best analogy for the GNU-Linux relationship.
The GNU utilities are a bunch of tools, Linux is something to use those tools on. In that sense it's more like a hot rod and mechanics tools. Someone who wants to use/tune/mess around with the Linux Hot Rod could make all of their own tools or they can walk down and pick up a set of GNU tools. Either way, it's the Hot Rod that they're interested in, not the tools. I don't name my Rod after my tools.
I have discovered a truly marvelous sig, unfortunately the sig limit is too small to contain i
while I was reading the article I came acrose the some of the addresses (that are behind the name of the poster) of the posters:
most are just IP names,
but some are IP addresses, see what I found:
'Mike Armentano from [205.227.43.11]:
Are you still working with Transmeta... and so on'
Name: inet-fw1-o.oracle.com
Address: 205.227.43.11
'The Keeper from [32.97.136.234], at 2:53pm ET
Java seems to be the latest technology that is taking the computer industry by storm. Is there a port of the Java VM and JDK to the Linux platform and where can I get it? How do you feel that Java can benefit Linux and vice versa?'
Name: ss04.nc.us.ibm.com
Address: 32.97.136.234
maybe more interresting:
'ndex from [131.107.3.76], at 2:42pm ET
One of the biggest drawbacks to having a linux only desktop is that there aren't many supported games. This is keeping a lot of people on Win9x whether they like it or not. Are you planning to do anything to promote or facilitate the porting of games to Linux?'
Name: tide76.microsoft.com
Address: 131.107.3.76
(but, they are probably not talking officially,
but then again, the microsoft guy... I dunno, seems like FUD to me (-; ).
New things are always on the horizon
Do you think that Microsoft will ever embrace Linux?
Well, they sponsored the page!1.3L, 3 moving parts, 280 HP, no Turbos, wanna Race? RotaryNe
Ok tough guy, taking things way to far..
Your assuming Linux runs system critical devices that may cause harm to the general public, but that is only aa asumption. Most likely linux is running things that are independent of any nuclear control systems.
As far as everything else you said, I think you want to be flamed, which I won't do, and youll be moderated out anyway.
I've always been puzzled about the whole cult surrounding this guy. Sure he started the ball rolling and is the guy at the top, but so what? That doesn't necessarily make him a saint, does it?
There are some interesting questions and answers on the topic of Linus' position as 'posterboy' for Linux and his role as keeper of the kernel.
What would really happen if (God forbid, crosses himself) Linus got killed in a car crash tomorrow, or some other circumstance arose that precluded him from continuing to manage the kernel?
Sure, Linus says there are lots of people who are capable of overseeing the coordination of kernel development. He names Alan and David as people whom he trusts and I don't think many would argue that they aren't capable of doing the job or that they wouldn't have the respect in the community that Linus enjoys.
But I think the more interesting question might be the non-technical aspects to Linus' leadership and how those shoes could be filled in his sudden absence. Linus makes mention of the 'personality cult' that must go. At first my reaction was "why?", Linus is a popular figure and is admired, nay, revered by the community. How could this be an undesirable thing?
Maybe this is a good reason: so the community won't go through crippling emotional spasms if Linus has to give up control over the kernel for some reason.
What do you think? How would the community cope with the sudden absence of Linus Torvalds?
Of course there is any easy way for that to happen. Linus could just start acting like a jerk. But somehow I don't really expect that to happen. It is no accident that the "personality cult" exists... Linus has the just right mix of humility, likeability, and brashness to result in this sort of thing, intential or not. Linux would not have been nearly as popular as quickly if Linus had been otherwise.
I hold up Bill Jolitz as the counter-example. 386bsd was a hit when he first released it, but (IMHO) his attitude and treatment of fellow developers drove people away from the project and eventually caused it to split into FreeBSD, NetBSD, etc. Linus has done much to hold the Linux movement together. In that respect, the "cult" is a Good Thing.
Thad
The Bolachek Journals
Nobody told me that he was gonna be on ABC News last night. Was this on /.? I musta missed it... Doh!