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GA-Source editorial on Linux
mediageek writes "Targeted at non Linux users, James Hills has written an
editorial which tries to explain open source, why there are different distros and general Linux pros & cons.
" This is a good one to pass on to your bosses/parents/friends - heck, all of the unwashed. *grin*
And if they don't we will use it anyways.
Gees. Sean in Education doesn't seem to have so much trouble. It is still a bit of a hackers' OS. It requires a bit study, but then again just about everyone I know has asked me for help with Win95 too. If you refuse to remain ignorant, you won't get too far with any computer.
"It does everything I ask, quickly (honest!) and it's never crashed, hung or bluescreened.
I can't remember my last bluescreen - seriously."
-Uh, Paul. If it's never bluescreened on you, why did you say you can't remember the last time it did. Kind of sounds like it did but you don't want to admit it.
I agree with most of James Hills' comments. The two primary reasons I use a computer are for entertainment purposes and productivity. Linux is definitely doing well in the productivity department, but entertainment is lacking.
However, I don't think it should rest on the Linux community's shoulders to port video games from other operating systems to Linux simply because a software company neglected doing this task, as seen with Doom (as James pointed out), but I think it should rest on the developer's shoulders.
I believe it has become a trend for commercial software developers to only release their products for MS Windows simply because that's what Windows stands for -- monetary gain.
I am happy at the direction id Software is directed, supporting Quake Arena under Linux (which definitely shows Linux is capable of being a gaming platform) and other OSs as well... and possibly if I go out and support their product by purchasing it, other software companies will take notice and follow suit.
It seems that most if not all of your needs would be taken care of by Linux at a fraction of the price.
I'm running Redhat 5.2 with KDE. It has a word processor, a browser(several), a photo editor, networking capabilities, developement tools, a polished desktop, etc. Considering that these are the things most people use a computer for, it really makes me question your good enough, very expensive Windows solution.
I've RECENTLY started a job using NT4 all the time. It's never done anything nasty.
I'll let you off the hook for that first slip. But get back to us when you have been using that machine a bit longer and you lose some serious work.
Keep this in mind. A "good enough" solution frequently isn't good enough.
Yes, the whole idea of GNOME is that eventually, everything will be customizable in GUILE (Gnu's Ubiquitous Intelligent Language for Extension, an implementation of Scheme with some GNU features added.). Of course, the first priorities for GNOME developers are getting the interface and CORBA working well first.
;-)
The end result, hopefully, will be to make something like Emacs for GUIs. The Guile home page is at http://www.gnu.org/software/guile/guile.html -- read it! If you don't like Scheme, the reason GNU picked it is that Scheme is powerful enough to write translators for other languages (for example, you can extend GUILE programs with a C-like syntax.)
All that you need to do is get the code and start implementing an AppleScript-like translator! Or at least, submit it as a wishlist bug
--decklin@home.com
Look for K Script in version 2.0
"More power to you. As a potential professional, think of all of the secrataries, and receptionists that are clueless. These are the people that IT pros think of when they choose WINCrap over Linux."
And it really isn't that difficult. Give a secretary a preconfigured Linux machine and I'm sure she'll be able to find the word pro. and browser. Give her an OS-less machine and an NT install disk and she'll be clueless.
Last time, I set up my mother's computer to use Win95. Does she understand it? Shit no. Next time, I'll give her Linux and teach her the same way. Click here to use the internet. How do I use the word pro.? Same as before Mom. Hey, I like this new computer!
"Give a secretary a pre-configured Linux machine and I'm sure SHE"
Sure I may be nit picking, but the point is that you are using stero typical assumptions. And yes Linux is more difficult than Windows!
Ask any user interface expert and they will tell you so.
And I am sure you had a lot of fun doing that.
However, there are people who cannot program a VCR. And for them compiling a kernel is not even on the same planet.
The best way to understand is to put yourself in the shoes of someone else. Hard to do, but you learn quite a bit
But these weren't the problem. I instantly took to Window Maker over the other supplied Gooeys - but it wasn't configured, I needed to (and still do) configure the main menu, to display the programs that were installed upon installation.
:-) ), although I don't know about any other distros.
Yes, RedHat isn't a very well integrated system. I can vouch that Debian does this to a level you may not have imagined (maybe you did
Bear in mind that I'm an IT student, so I'm fairly technically minded
Offtopic, but what IS an IT student? I'm a CS student, and "Information Technology" to me sounds like a meaningless buzzword..
Daniel
I've toyed with this idea for a while; I'm nowhere near advanced enough as a programmer to be able to implement it, but I know it should be possible -- and I think it would give Linux a unique edge that Windows would be hard-pressed to match.
An easy-to-use graphical interface is what draws in users who aren't sure of their abilities; the power and efficiency of pipes draws in users who recognize their power. What if you had a special window that let you see all your files and appropriate commands as pipe segments, and compose a piped command by dragging the icons into the right relationship with each other?
I'd be willing to share any of the ideas I've had for interface details. I think something like this would help people understand that Linux really is better: that Windows does a better job of shielding the user from the inner workings, but that's because Windows' inner workings are butt-ugly, while Linux's are bursting with power.
feldspar@cryogen.com
No, I was thinking of my Mom and who is quite a bit better using the computer than my Dad.
The only reason why Linux is *perceived* to be more difficult to use than Windows is because people are more used to running Windows.
The first time (actually the first year) I used Windows was always a learning experience. I read several books and spent hundreds of hours messing around with it learning the ins and outs of it. Very little is intuitive. The chances of you learning to change a screen saver, set up a ppp connection, unzipping a file, or adding Russian extensions *intuitively* on a Windows system is ludicrous. That's why there's all of those Windows books in the bookstore.
As for all of those interface experts, perhaps you could inform them of this the next time you meet them since I don't know any personally. And if it's a intuitive interface that is important perhaps you should try a Mac since it's commmonly agreed upon that it has the most intuitive interface. (At least that's what Mac users say until they have to figure out a problem and buy a book or call the tech department.)
People are always talking about the command line and why Linux can't be popular because of it. I fail to buy this argument. Alot of people now using Windows somehow muddled their way through DOS and can manage with the command line.
In addition Apple had a GUI way before MS Windows but DOS was and now MS Windows is still more popular and continues to be so despite Apple's still (generally recogonized) superior GUI. In addition, Linux now has two superior Windows environments. Even if they don't stack up to Windows (not saying that they don't), they don't have to be to conquer Windows. MS proved this themselves about the Mac.
The main thing I think it is, is the price. MS was always cheaper and people bought MS. If most people can choose between a $500 Linux machine and a $600 Linux machine with similar capabilities, a great number of them will choose the Linux machine because it is cheaper.
This is how MS made it's fortune, by always underpricing the competitor. MS has met its match. You can't get much cheaper than free.
I would like to comment that if no parts of either ;-)
a saw or a hammer doesn't move, then they wont be
of much use. Am I being a smartass here?
Have a nice day!
I would like to comment that if no parts of either ;-)
a saw or a hammer moves, then they wont be
of much use. Am I being a smartass here?
Have a nice day!
I could never find the configuration doodads for Windows, and just gave up on it. I use it as a multitasker for DOS, anyway.
After firing up kde, it only took a few minutes to make it resemble the Mac, with the parrotts background and disappearing toolbar. This is cool, and the casual computer user actually thinks it's a Mac.
With buttons for Applix and other stuff, I gave my boss a Linux computer. He's totally computer illiterate, he had no probs.
Ah, and I forgot to say: I reinstalled Windows (it came preinstalled as usual) was because installing the printer driver _always_ crashed _at the same point_ (reinstalling didn't help anyway, so we used and half-installed driver :-( - under Linux at least I'd _fix_ it ;-) )
That is pretty much my point. Make it simple, and be patient with them. (notice no gender refs)
If you had to recompile the kernel even once, that's too much. Forget about it. In businesses, people don't do that shit. That's like buying a car, jsut to have to rebuild the engine. No way. Consider the average IT person is probably paid $50-$75/hour, there's no way a company is going to buy a product that requires that much work jsut to SET UP. NO way. You'll see that when you grow up a bit. Naivete isn't your fault.
Yup. And coolness is irrelevant in a business. Try to justify to your boss that your delivery truck should be a 1968 model because it's "cool". sure, the engine needs rebuilding, and you have to have a mecahnic in it at all times (red: Linux), but it's so COOL!!! hahahahah
Why is the lack of commercial software cited as
a disadvantage? It's true that Linux does
not have as much commercial (I assume 'proprietary') software as Windows,
but why do you need it? If free software is
inadequate then we can write more to fulfill
that need, instead of depending on closed-source
solutions.
My home win98se installation doesn't crash too much (ie does though). That is only because I am VERY carefull about the programs I install and I clean out my registry, win.ini, system.ini, and .dlls every so often.
As for nt4sp3, which I use at work, it crashes quite randomly. I will leave it on doing rc5des stuff for days at a time, but then when I am actually working at it it will blue screen on me every day or two. It really sucks when you're doing something important and suddenly all you see is a core dump!
What I was wondering about (and it was mentioned in the article) is the coding style of open source projects. It's always said that Opensource projects are coded well and clean but personally I think this is different in each project. Some projects may be coded well but are not clean or orderly at all (I know I don't exactly code clean). I was looking at the source code of the Minix kernel the other day and it was very clean. The thing is that not all opensource coders are _proffesional_ coders, a lot of them are still in school and code just for fun. A slashdot poll about coding style would be interesting.
Even though I'm a vehement user of free software and Linux, I'll agree here. NT is ok, if you've got a big box at home. But I have enough problems with Windows 98 on my P100, 16MB RAM laptop, and don't even think about it on my old 486/33 without even a PCI bus and only 830MB HDD space (of course, I have Linux on both of them now). Now, I don't use NT for ``political'' reasons, and because I don't feel like forking over the few hundred dollars for a new version every few years, but it's a helluva lot more stable than 9x on a high-end computer. Web serving is another matter entirely, too...
Although this was a decent article in a general sense Quake 2 and GLQuake have been available for Linux for a long time and should have been covered at least briefly.
Although Quake 2 plays well under Linux most people get about a one third performance decrease as measured in framerate. This causes many serious players to have to run Quake 2 from windows because running in Linux has the effect of decreasing their skill relative to the other players. There's also a sluggish mouse response problem on many systems. Quake 2 is alot easier to install now than it was a year ago but there are still ongoing configuration problems for some users in Linux.
Also Linux Quake players pretty much have to use a 3dfx card and not a TNT or TNT2. Linux drivers for Nvidia cards are available now but the performance will be very slow until XFree86 4.0 is out.
A good source of info for people who want to try playing Quake2 under Linux is the howto at www.linuxquake.com.
I'd be interested in hearing about any framerate comparisons between linux and windows for Quake3:Arena on the same machine.
What political reasons could you possibly have to run NT instead of Linux?
[slaps self] -- I know a little German, and I know that the word for 'computer science' is Informatik. I never put two and two together I guess :-)
:-) ). Heck, Gutenberg was in the business. Also, corporatespeak is one of my pet peeves, and Information Technology seems to me to be on par with "solution", "enterprise", and "financial affairs" -- something invented by corporations to make themselves feel (or, failing that, sound) more impressive and dignified. Oh well.
The reason I find it to be meaningless is that it's so vague. A librarian does Information Technology. A book publisher does Information Technology (and I don't mean their computer system
Daniel
Im glad that most Linux developer aren't this arrogant. Screaming "you idiot!" at people who try to use your software is a sure way to end up in a corner of the world, alone, pissed off because everyone is using windows.
Basically, CS in England is computer architecture. Hardware, CPU programming, et all.
IT is the use of computers, eg, M$ programs, high level programming (read : Pascal and COBOL) and in some cases, some business studues too.
~Emm
You enter it on the command line. It is one command and you press enter. It does not get much simpler.
See, your values are skewed. Your "as long as it's free it's good" doesn't make sense. If you make $50/hour, and it takes you 10 hours to get the damn CD burner working, that's $500 of lost money! You should be looking at what is the best VALUE. For that same 10 hours of work, I could buy 5 copies of NT and have moved onto something else useful in that 10 hours. If you spend days working on Linux. It's NOT free. It's expensive. That's where you're missing the boat.
Compiling a new kernel from updated kernel sources isn't at all as simple as that. Aside from that, I would say that Linux has actually moved further into inpenetrablility for non-CS/IT/MIS people since the release of distributions based on the 2.2 kernel. The compiling options are just overwhelming now. No normal person is going to endure it. They will just have to live with whatever is configured into the kernel or kernel-modules as shipped on their distribution CD. Which is the same thing as saying "it's bloated --deal with it !" The desktop is geting much better though that also means bloat. Well...maybe preloads can optimize things.
In 1995 I gave a talk at a conference. There was a discussion of why people were going to the Web. The Oracle dude gave because of . Likewise with many others on the panel.
I said, because it was cool and hip. Did the crowd become quiet (it was full of managers and bosses). They did not like that comment. I said it was currently the Web is interesting, but some things still need to be ironed out. As time has passed they have. Why did they become quiet? Because of the hype and the coolness.
So yes coolness does play a role.
I don't see why people keep saying that Windows is "undeniably intuitive". After using Unix (with fvwm) for a year and then comming back to Windows (I have to use it at work) I find windows very hard to use. Infact I have installed Litestep, Bash, Vim and other Unix tools on my NT Workstation just so that I can get work done, as opposed to spending half my time trying to get NT to do what I want.
Also at my University we use Unix on the computers, and I've seen several people who have pretty much never used a computer before, become proficient unix users after just a couple of computer intro lessons. It's simply just learning to use it. The only reason why people seem to claim that Windows is intuative is since that's what most people know how to use.
So in regards to your comment about Linux not being friendly to non-techie users, this really only counts if they have to install and configure it themselves. And let's face it, they wouldn't be able to install or configure NT either.
THis is like when my thumper sister jumped my atheist bones for saying "thank God." She likes me better now, though because she's indisputably and eternally showed how very 'leet ('lect?) she is.
you're fifteen. You could probably pack on another foreign language or two without much trouble at this point, even if you're a half wit. You're definitely at the right time to be wrangling with network protocols, machine language and other nasties. I did as much when I was fifteen, and we had expensive, actively user-hostile operating systems to work with. Someone twice your age, in a different field, with bills, family and tired feet, really can't be buggered to go through it all. Does that make them dumb? No, it makes you a teenager.
Where the hell do people get these hypothetical brain-wiped secretaries who get marooned on desert islands and have to support their own NT boxes to survive? There's a word for people without years of experience in Windows programs -- entry level. Oh yeah, set up your own alternate career path for sooper-word-processing Linux drones. They'll take over every law firm in the country in ten years! How brilliant, how plausible, how realistic! How Linux!
Too bad there's no English Steering Committee you people can bomb into submission; you could run completely wild on double negatives, noun-verb disagreements and rampant apocope.
Then you's all could talk any old how, and couldn' nobody give you no grief about it, even if THEY wanted to.
I contend that ease of use has nothing to do with
command line or GUI. I have seen many GUI programs
which are tough to use. Ever tried to
use Veritas Volume Manager? Ease of use comes from
conceptual simplicity. The simpler mental
model one form of a software, the easier is it
to use. GUI does help in some situations, but
there is a danger in making GUI synonymous
with ease of use. Managers many times think
they made a program easier to use just because
they made programmers put a GUI on top of it.
Take the case of Netscape's Enterprise Server vs Apache. I haven't found anything in Netscape's
that made it easier than Apache.
I'm glad you were succesful at Debian. More power to you. As a potential professional, think of all of the secrataries, and receptionists that are clueless. These are the people that IT pros think of when they choose WINCrap over Linux. Many in MIS are under a mandate of maintaining productivity over stability. I agree Linux in the long run will kick Windoze pretty hard. Look at the people complainig about Linux's perceived deficienies as an oportunity presented to you to make Linux easy for the that average user. A great example that illustrates my point is the Cobalt Cube. People that I know that are using it love it. Some don't even know that they are even using Linux ! Cobalt went out of there way to make Linux super usable. You could say that they responded to market forces (ala Microsoft). Put your expertise to work for these average users, and yourself. Get involved with Gnome, or KDE. Write an interface for Apache, or Samba that will make it easier for the average user. Heck write a book that would help the secratary or some suit. This is what Open Source is all about!
I'm just 15 years old ...
:-)
:-) ) that as you get older you lose time to learn new things. I'd say the ability, except that my grandmother (who's 70+, maybe 80 years old) keeps learning to do new things (like incredible china painting) -- however, I think that it may become difficult to learn new *MODES* of thought. Computers (not just Linux) require a relatively abstract and mathematical way of thinking that most people aren't accustomed to. (can a CogSci person back me up or tell me I'm an idiot? :-) ) So it may be mainly a societal thing -- people who are working are expected to work and learn only things that enhance their 'productivity', but for whatever reason older people have more difficulty with computers. Not less.
:-) ) But once you get it set up I've found it to be easier than other distributions, mainly because things generally work the way I would do them. *shrug*
Ah, therein lies the problem. You see, as people get older their brain fossilizes
But seriously, I think (from observing people older than me, not from direct personal experience
I don't really understand the "Debian -> Advanced" idea either though. The only thing I can think of is the huge number of questions and warning messages the installer spits out, it can easily beat you into submission if you aren't expecting it (I've seen this happen even to experienced Linux users
Daniel
Well I installed it on a friend's shiny new box. First, boot from CD. It asks if you want to boot from HD or CD, with HD being the default (!). It asks some random stuff about 'support for large disks'. I say yes, it REBOOTS (still in that ugly Win3.11-installer-like screen. Same dumb question about 'boot from HD vs CD' (CD again). Copies basic files. Reboot. After five reboots (not counting the initial boot), the system is ready. Five more reboots to install drivers and software (AAARGH!!!). The damn thing preinstalled nothing useful by default, so put CD back in drive, enter the 'package select' (ahem, 'components'...), select some _gamez_ (Solitarie, Minesweeper, and two other random card games). _REBOOT_!!!
:-) ).
After that _odissey_, I started feeling sad. The fun of installing had ended, and the box had _NOTHING_ to do! Not even a good game! NOTHING!!!
Went home. Total time (from start of unpacking the new box to full install): about 5 hours (about 2.5 of fun with cables
A recent Mindcraft study has shown that bicycles are faster than cars. The tests benchmarked the distance traveled by the vehicles over a period of five seconds. The bicycles traveled an average distance of 25.7 feet while the cars traveled an average distance of 0.0 feet. Critics of this survey have pointed out that the drivers of the cars did not have enough time to unlock the doors, get in, and turn the car on. Mindcraft has refuted this argument by pointing out that the drivers of the bicycles had no problems opening the doors and turning them on. Critics then responded by pointing out that bicycles don't have doors and don't need to be turned on. Mindcraft responded to this by saying "hey, what's that over there" and then running away.
Posted by Faithless the Wonder Boy:
I regard restarting WinNT at work as a regular, unavoidable task. Some people seem to get away with never having to reboot, whereas I just seem to crash computers whenever I go near them. I even managed to crash my pocket calculator once...
--------------------------------------
Posted by Faithless the Wonder Boy:
Smartarse reply:
In the case of those tools, the moving part is your arm.
--------------------------------------
semis, you're on crack... go to sleep you munt
In my experience, NT is fairly stable(ish) until you start installing lots of different apps & generally changing things around.
:-)
This is not a good thing, obviously, as the first thing I do with any computer system is install fuckloads of apps and tweak the bejesus out of everything in sight.
Mong: try to take a glance at some BSOD screenshots at somewhere like www.sysinternals.com (they do the rather fine BSOD screensaver). Taqke a long hard look - they will be your constant friend after just a few more months using NT.
-- Stu
This is off on a bit of a tangent, but I'd avoid the combination of RH5.2, an S3 (virge?) DX, and Afterstep - at least, unless you *like* regularly killing/restarting X due to a memory leak. Windowmaker under the same other conditions doesn't show this problem. A recent Windowmaker will stomp the Afterstep that comes with RH 5.2 into a pulp anyhow. :)
Of course, if you're only dabbling in Linux, you might not notice the memory leak - I use Linux as my only OS at home and leave the main machine on 24/7, so it was an issue for me.
BTW- you *can* set up Windowmaker so that it uses the same "database" that the other window managers are set up to use - that's how my systems are configured.
As for "intuitive" - what's intuitive? I sit my mother in front of Windows 95 *or* a Linux box. Either is like asking her to sit in front of the GC/MS setup we have in the lab (and she's not a chemist). I really wonder how much of this is due to Linux not being installed with the comnputer when you bought it and how much is due to the "difficulty" of Linux once it's been configured.
On Windows I woder why I don't get a nice menu of applications when I right click in the desktop (a la Windowmaker) - and where's the damn dock? Windows isn't intuitive!
-- Rick
In cities at least, bicycles are usually the fastest way of getting around - as proved by numerous commuter challenges.
Alex (taking things far too seriously)
I think you're right! And I'm not 15, I was 40 when I started Slackin'(3 yrs now). If you didn't
learn DOS, you might think a folder ISN'T a sub-
directory. It not really that hard, you just have
to learn stuff. Congratulations, Keep on truckin'
Exactly. GUI and CLI aren't mutually exclusive, but they aren't interchangeable. There are some things each does more efficiently than the other. Which things one prefers in each depend on the user. By having both done well, you have an operating system that everyone can use.
... umm... a lot of commercial support.
...
Previously, I was an OS/2 user. IMHO, it has the best GUI of them all. Assuming the programmer of your app wasn't being lazy, everything was an object and you could drag'n'drop, and otherwise manipulate all objects in a nice standard way. Want to e-mail someone an image from a web page? The URL? Just right click, drag it to your message and send. *poof*. There was even a third party tool that let you drag selected text. This was all from one common interface, everything had the same clipboard, all dragging and dropping was handled by the same mechanism. It was well and good, too bad it wasn't stable.
Linux (depending on configuration), and Win32 GUIs tend to have some objecty and d'n'd things, but it always seems to be only partially implemented and tends to not work in the instances I'd actually find it useful.
The CLI of both Windows and OS/2 were relatively useless and quite annoying out of the box. It required 4dos or 4os/2 to get them to behave, bah.
Linux has a great CLI, many shells available, and if you read the man page on bash or zsh or whichever, you can generally make it behave how you want. Plus, Linux has nice things like real globbing, common acceptance of standard I/O, and a wealth of command line utilities.
So, to sum up - OS/2 has a good GUI, bad CLI, Linux has good CLI, unfinished GUI, Windows has
I don't suppose anyone is hiding something combining the best aspects of KDE/Gnome and OS/2 using a toolkit that is a GPLed Qt with GTK+ themes and a bunch of handy functions supporting seamless integration with apps? No? Well, could someone please merge all those projects together, or make them interoperable or something, because that's the limitation of GUI under Linux right now, it's too fragmented. The problem is, how can we maintain the ability to have multiple toolkit thingies, window managers, X servers and misc interface bits, while coming up with a way that we can use this mess without it seeming like such an eclectic assortment of unrelated bits?
I just realised, people are going to tell me to quit complaining and go use BeOS. Oh well. I'll post it anyhow
Is Unix really any harder than any other command line? Does anyone really think the Windows command line is any easier? Anything you can do from the Windows command line, you can do from the Unix command line just as easily (and often easier).
The key is that ideally, in Windows you never need to use the command line. But the same is true in Linux! It's not fair to propagate this tired "arcane command line" argument.
You played around with RedHat 5.2, probably because some kewl d00d told you it is the kewl thing to do ... you didn't bother reading hardware compatibility lists (I'd hate to watch you installing NT4 on a brand new computer), so you had some initial problems ... you even had to be social to solve one of your problems!
... ?
:-( Dang, I could have saved a lot of money!
:-) It's just amazing to me that the Windows folks in our department constantly ask us UNIX folks when Windows crashes and burns and never bother asking their Windows peers ...
Then you got it installed and started poking around. Ok, you didn't like the first GUI, and the second one was "klunky", and the applications didn't automatically show up in the start menu. What a shame! Well, the documentation was over your head, so just leave it the way it is
But now comes the real bummer about linux: It doesn't come with apache, word processors and image editing tools! Hmmm. I must have gotten the wrong CD, since I had all these. Miracles never cease! You must have gotten a magical Windows CD, too, since the last time I installed Windows 95, it didn't install Photoshop, Word and Apache
I'm glad you are happy with Windows (especially if they give you all these development tools for free), but I'd hate to work for a company where people like you are responsible for IT. As far as I know, Dilbert hates his job
This would hardly qualify as arrogance on my side. This guy never tried to _use_ linux, he just installed it, and couldn't find the applications he wanted, and then proceeded with collectively dismissing linux. He took no effort whatsoever to figure it out or maybe even find out that most applications he needed came with the CDROM.
:-)
If this was some random Joe Nobody, I wouldn't care. The problem is he is IT student and you can bet in a few years he will work in some IT department of some company and will make big decisions - based in obvious ignorance. Doesn't it strike you as odd, that he choses Windows because it comes with Apache ????? Doesn't it strike you as sheer ignorance if he says there are no web development tools for linux when the very forum he posted that is written and based on linux ????
You can criticize me for replying to flame bait, which is probably not a smart thing. But you should learn to distinguish between people who ask for help and people who are just plain ignorant. Please also realize, that if you use Windows out of protest against me, you hurt yourself more than you hurt me
You have to use a command line to do effective systems administration on both systems. As an ordinary user, you can just about get away with using the GUI - again on both systems.
Unix file browsers tend to be a little under powered, and even GMC doesn't show much concern for usability. Thus most people resort to the command line much quicker on Unix.
The proper "gender-nonspecific" form for a singular person is he/him/his.
Not to be nitpicky, but the rules have changed. The spec now to switch alternately between he/him/his and she/her/hers, or better yet avoid these contructs as much as possible.
(At least when I went to college in the early 90s, using he/him/his exclusively would incure the wrath of those handing out the grades!)
--
Business. Numbers. Money. People. Computer World.
"Information Technology" to me sounds like a meaningless buzzword..
Har. Wait until you get a job. Virtually every corporation has a "Information Technology" or a "Management Information Systems" or in sillier places, even a "Client-Server Integration" department. In short it's the folks who run the computers.
--
Business. Numbers. Money. People. Computer World.
Recompiling your kernel is more like changing the oil in your car. It only takes about 15 minutes, and you can easily learn how to do it by reading directions.
Unfortunately many older people don't like to read directions, because they perceive written directions as a threat to their intellect and experience. That's why three quarters of VCR's in the world have flashing 12:00 on them.
I dont remember who said it, but I just love this quote:
"The only truly intuitive user interface is the nipple. Everything else has to be learned."
ease of use. People have been exposed to Windows for several years now, when they see a Windows desktop they realize how it operates and can use it semi-effectively. Linux has just recently gotten the attention of the mainstream press and your average Windows user. It will be a little longer before we start seeing it pop up on people's desktops, simply because it's not designed as a basic user's desktop OS. But many groups such as the GNOME peoples and our friends from KDE are working to make it easier for the average Joe to see a desktop and be able to sit down and use it. As for open source, most people could care less. They have always paid for software, I had a teacher that looked at me like I was some sort of demented psycho when I explained the GPL license. I don't do alot of C coding so most programs' source code means little to me, whether it's precompiled or I have to compile it, it's all good as long as I dont have tio pay for it.
I'm a loner Dottie, a Rebel.
Been thinking, its a shame to see all these new users who just don't use the power of the shell.
Just like Gnome and KDE try to make the *nix GUI easier.. something like an applescript clone would make the shell easier.
Ideas? Comments?
It's hard to imagine Linux as a user-friendly OS if Linus Torvalds's own family (other than his wife) won't even use it.
That pretty much says it all...
Cheers,
ZicoKnows@hotmail.com
>>offtopic, but what IS an IT student? I'm a CS student, and "Information Technology" to me sounds like a meaningless buzzword..
It's basically what passes for CS in Europe. The idea is that they (I don't study it myself) focus their attention on the 'information' not on the 'computer'. That is to say, IT specialists are not necessarily programmers per se, but they are conversant in technologies used for the storage/organization/retrieval of information. What's meaningless about that?
chris
San Francisco values: compassion, tolerance, respect, intelligence
Ah, but using "them" for a singular is incorrect.
:).
The proper "gender-nonspecific" form for a singular person is he/him/his.
Sort of the same way "mankind" includes women, too
Hmm... I think you've got it backwards.
Which OS is newer?
Linux - it was started in 1991, with 1.0 in 1994.
By contrast, Win9x is still on DOS, and NT is based off of VMS.
Which needs constant maintainance? Certainly not Linux - set it up, and let it sit. You don't have to worry about crashes, filesystem corruption, or general instability.
*I* don't know anyone who uses Linux because it's cool - most use it because it does something they need, or something they can't do with another OS.
For example, at work we just got an 8-node Beowulf (from XTreme Machines, each node is a dual P2-450, pretty impressive), and it's going to be used for simulations of Liquid Crystals. You simply can't get that sort of computing power out of a Windows box - it cost $25000, but that's quite a bit cheaper than a single machine with the equivalent processing power.
At home, I use Linux 98% of the time - I have Windows '98 installed, but hardly ever use it. I occasionally reboot to play some games, but I'm getting Civ:CTP (linux version) today - yippee! I've given up only Windows because it's just too unstable.
Hmm.... I had to underclock my K6-233 down to 200 MHz because windows bluescreened constantly, but I haven't tried clocking it back up to 233 in Linux. I gotta try that....
"Open source: a great new way of development... since 1959." Sheesh.
To the editors: your English is as bad as your Perl. Please go back to grade school.
You have the following choices in most cases:
1) Switch to the passive voice. No gender needed. English teacher will fry you for using passive voice.
b) Use "they/them/their". Everyone will understand. English teacher will fry you for using technically incorrect grammar.
iii) Use "he/him/his". Technically correct and non-gender-specific. English teacher may fry you for being sexist.
IV) Use "he/she" alternately. English teacher will think you're making an attempt at option 3 but falling short. If teacher didn't fry you for being sexist when you used option 3, will fry you now. "She" is guaranteed to be gender-specific.
five) Buy the advice of the author of a grammar book I studied. "She" is the non-gender-specific pronoun because it also contains the word "he". Will fry if your English teacher disagrees. (I disagree.)
IIIIII) Use no pronouns. That's what I did for most of this post, e.g. "teacher" in place of "he". Doesn't always work. Must revert to other option.
This post CAN be related to the topic we're supposed to be talking about. The point is there's no perfect solution and in English grammar as in software licensing we must find the best solution for our own situation. Also, this problem in English has existed for a very long time, and likewise there's a good chance the open source vs. commercial fight will continue to be fought.
unwashed????
sheesh. some people use NT for usability.
even political reasons.
i do
---bob
or 'sh' for short. Naaa, that's too hard of a name for Windows folken. Maybe we should call it Perl, or even Tickle.
Gosh, we could follow it up with a syntax coloring editor too.
1) Switch to the passive voice. No gender needed. English teacher will fry you for using passive voice.
;=)
b) Use "they/them/their". Everyone will understand. English teacher will fry you for using technically incorrect grammar.
iii) Use "he/him/his". Technically correct and non-gender-specific. English teacher may fry you for being sexist.
IV) Use "he/she" alternately. English teacher will think you're making an attempt at option 3 but falling short. If teacher didn't fry you for being sexist when you used option 3, will fry you now. "She" is guaranteed to be gender-specific.
five) Buy the advice of the author of a grammar book I studied. "She" is the non-gender-specific pronoun because it also contains the word "he". Will fry if your English teacher disagrees. (I disagree.)
IIIIII) Use no pronouns. That's what I did for most of this post, e.g. "teacher" in place of "he". Doesn't always work. Must revert to other option.
111) Use the non-gender specific SHe and Hir as proposed by that famous acid-head. Or should that be Sha to avoid sounding like she? Hell, that's all too PC for me anyway.
When I was able to do my own spam-armoring, you got a chance to email me. Now you can only hope I see your reply.
In my opinion, no. Quite the opposite.
I think that people who have used both the Windows command line (i.e. MS-DOS) and a Unix shell will find the Unix shell easier to use, particularly if they use a featureful shell such as zsh. Shells like zsh can do a lot for you once you've learned how to use them. By contrast, MS-DOS is dumb and seems to go out of its way to be a hindrance.
Exactly. GUI advocates don't have anything against the Unix command line in particular, but command lines in general. Some GUI advocates single out Unix/Linux in particular because they see it, rightly or wrongly, as primarily a command line driven OS.
My opinion? Have a system with both a powerul GUI and a featureful shell interface, so you can use the right tool for the right job.
for the great unwashed that is. While I am able to get, let's say an ATAPI cdwriter working, it took me several hours of fiddling with kernel options and reading doco to do it. When I look at non-computer people using their PCs, I know they would have no hope.
This isn't totally Linux's fault. Hardware manufacturers work hard to make their devices easy to install. But some work could definitely be done in the kernel config/hardware config department. There are some things that I know should work that not even I can get working (for example, some devices I can't get working as a module but I can when built into the kernel). The whole module config area is too hard right now.
It seems that there's a group of posers that try to cling to the latest computer rage without any thought as to why. They jumped on Win95 because everyone else did, and had to taught how to move a window. They don't even know why they have a computer - everyone else just has one.
At my school there are a few people like this that jumped on Linux. Not because of stability, speed, or power, but instead, because it made them look "cool."
I tried to overclock my AMD 400. It didn't boot to Windows. Not once. I tried booting to Linux! It worked, it didn't crash, and it worked THE FIRST TIME! I don't know what I did, but ever since I did upgrade to a 400 Windows locks up every time I turn on the computer. I pound reset, then it works fine. But Linux just doesn't do this. And Linux's "kill" command works far better than pressing CTRL-ALT-DEL in Win 98.
I'm tired of hearing people complain that Linux is too difficult to learn! I mean, COME ON! I'm just 15 years old and a few months ago I downloaded and installed Debian and got it running, got X working, Netscape, Quake, learned Emacs, and the basics of copying files, editing .conf files, etc. Then I was told Debian is ADVANCED! Sure I had to re-compile the Kernel a dozen times to get sound and stuff working, but I sure learned alot more than I would in Windows!
I can also remember reading another Linux article where the author said he started getting confused about having to create partitions and wondering, "Why do I have to do this?". These people with their pre-installed Windows don't realize if you ever get a new hard drive you (probably) have/want to partition it and then install Windows.
Actually IT and MIS are filled with people who
can't do the math or write the code...
At least thats where the CS dropouts I have known
have gone...
"they" has been used as a neuter personal pronoun in English for centuries. There are recorded case of Will Shakespeare doing so in his plays, for instance. I don't have a problem with it.
/. posting interface?
As for split infinitives... It has never been non-grammatical to do so in English. The reason it was ever considered bad grammar was when some educators mistakenly thought that English grammar should be based on Latin grammar. Since Latin doesn't use split infinitives (actualy, an infinitive in Latin is a single word, which is kind of hard to split), the "logical" assumption was that it was improper in English.
The problem with that logic is twofold: a) English speakers have been boldly splitting infinitives for as long as they have been uttering them, and b) English is not derived from Latin, but is instead Germanic, a different language branch.
Besides, some grammarians now view "to boldly go" not as a split infinitive, but consider "go" to be the infinitive, and "to" to simply be a marker that an infinitive will be used. "Boldly" serves as an adverb modifying the infinitive.
[Also... How do you quote referred text in the
I thought it was well thought out... I was wondering when an easy-to-understand article by an articulate author would grace the 'unwashed' as Hemos put it...
...different from the more confusing but more familiar "maybe here, maybe there, depends on the app" file schema of Windows.
/var/lib sometimes in /usr/bin sometimes in /home/blah...
Well, in Linux/Unix I'd say that the above statement would be "maybe here, maybe there, depends on the distro"... 8)
I'm running RH because it's a pretty good beginners system as far as I can understand (RPMs and stuff) but as soon as I log into one of the servers I use on the net or install stuff from source (designed for other distros) I get all confused. Sometimes things go in
-- Martin
> Is Unix really any harder than any other command line?
.bat files. Even then they feared the Unix CLI, not because it was a CLI, but because it was a _different_ CLI.
No, but it's _different_.
Before Windows was anything better than whipped cream on a road apple, most DOS aficionados could use a DOS (command.com) CLI and even write
At about the same time, I hated the VMS CLI because it was so different from the Unix one, not because it was difficult or ugly. I also disliked the DOS CLI as useless because I found it was too unhelpful and annoying for its limited usefulness.
DOS/Windows users may eventually come to like the Unix shells once they get used to the rather simple scheme of "where all the files are" which is, of course, different from the more confusing but more familiar "maybe here, maybe there, depends on the app" file schema of Windows.
New users find it easier than Windows converts because they have no blinding preconceptions.
It's all based on what you're used to.
For the average user, a bicycle is perfect for small load, short haul tasks. But for users with more demanding needs, the multi-user, multi-tasking car may be a better bet. Bikes may be flashier and zippier in most single user tasks, but cannot easily scale beyond two wheels and one user.
The venerable cars and trucks of this world still dominate the heavier tasks. Cars aren't even available with less than a 2 user license and four active wheels. Trucks are even known to scale up to 18 wheels or even larger with the load shared evenly by all wheels. Hybrid vehicles called buses are known to handle up to 60 concurrent users with no effect on overall performance.
It still amuses car and truck drivers that the bicycle oriented press even thought the time of cars and trucks was over and bikes would soon be handling all aspects of transport, even at the enterprise level. 6 years after the introduction of Bike-NT (a motorcycle), cars, buses and trucks still do the vast majority of real transport.
After all, as we've learned time and again. Bike-NT and all bikes have a much higher risk of fatal crashes.
-M
You're partly correct. The latest Oxford English Dictionary says that it's now acceptable to use "they" instead of "he or she" as the latter construction becomes cumbersome when used often.
Another major change was the acceptance of split infinitives, to greatly improve the usability of.
L.
I think one of the biggest weaknesses that linux has is in understanding the needs of ordinary users. Just read some of the responses - people are entrenched in their position that "linux rox, windows sux".
This attitude is out of touch with the masses. By masses, I mean the 200+ million windows users. People who do not know what a video card is. People who don't know how to change fonts. People who don't give a damn about "themes", kernel modules, or nifty configs.
The major linux base still consists of 10 million people - basically programmers, their friends and relatives, and people fond of technical/computing subjects. The question is if this figure is going to eat a big chunk of the 200 million windows users.
a) Does the linux community even understand how difficult and intimidating ordinary people find computers? I read lines like "just slap in the NIC card and configure it and you're all set". Do people here even realise how clueless people are with PCs?
b) Do they care? If they don't, then linux will be stuck with those with a technical bent, while windows will cater to the rest.
The tendency to dig in and claim that linux is way easier than windows, and scoff at all evidence to the contrary, will ensure only that the user base is stuck where it is presently - with the ones who find linux easier than windows.
L.
(PS - please don't give anecdotes about how you find linux so easy. That is the whole point of this post - I'm not talking about us geeks, I'm talking about non-technical people who have never used linux and whether *they* find it easier. Again, non-technical, as in - someone who doesn't know what RAM means.)
I obviously deny most vehemntly any accusations of ignorance. If asked to implement a whole new network, I'd instantly recommend a Linux backbone to deal with mail, web and files. Then I'd have NT4 on the desktop. Incidentally, I could actually do (some) of this myself - definatley the HTTP side anyway.
...Student, Artist, Techie - Geek *
I didn't simply install it and then "give up". It's still there. I use it about an hour or so a week, either for some GIMP effects not in Photoshop, or to test that my latest pages work under a Linux NS and even in Lynx.
I was really proud of myself when I configured a variety of things by editing some config files (mostly Apache related) and have relished in the raw power provided by the Linux CLI vs the DOS one.
There are _no_ web development tools which appeal to me on Linux. Enhanced EMACS? Yeah sure... gimme Dreamweaver, Fusion or even FP98 any day. It's not "sheer ignorance" - quite the reverse in fact. I think maybe it's other who are ignorant of the wide range of quality (if admittedly costly) software available for the Win platform. Maybe thats the point - you gets whats you pays for. Okay, the actual OS isn't half as efficent/stable/etc as Linux, but the available software is pretty f*cking neat in many cases.
I don't usually respond to a personal attack, but... You don't know me, you don't know of how many hours I spent configuring my system (or trying to), I posted loads of comments on a very Linux centric BBS. Many of the questions were answered (thank you!) - but the griping one about WindowMaker wasn't, apart from being told "read the docs". I did, the docs told me that I had to spend ages manually adding programs to the main menu - I don't know where many of these programs are on my HD (etc).
The point (there is one) is that Linux is not friendly to new, non-technical users. As far as my particular course goes, I'm one of the most "techie" on it - I only know about 3 or 4 people who actually understand anything about what Linux is (let alone use it). For Gods sake; some of my colleagues struggle to import a picture into Word, or use a "wizard" to make a webpage. You expect these people to recommend Linux/UNIX as a soloution? They don't even know what it is.
Hmm, I don't use Windows to protest against you - I use it becuase I need it. If all my favourite tools were ported to Linux (freely or otherwise), I'd jump straight across. Especially if the GUI had the intuitiveness that Win95/98/NT undeniably has.
Which brings me to another point. Much of the Linux commnunity wants everything free or GPL'd or whatever... people like Adobe or Macromedia are not about to release the latest versions of their software freely (do you know how much these cost?) use your common sense here! I think maybe you need to accept that times are changing - Linux is verging on breaking onto the mainstream desktop... don't let a commendable ideology stand in the way of common sense.
Mong. Apologising for ramblling on (and on).
* Paul Madley
*...Slacker, Artist, Techie - Geek *
Remember: Nothing is Cool.
... umm "My boss ... he" is not sexist -- it's a real person. They know if their boss is male or female.
- Michael T. Babcock (Yes, I blog)
Most people aren't smart enough to understand and don't care what is on their system as long as they can do the things they want. Just the fact that you are posting on this site shows that you probably can NOT relate to the AVERAGE (read: I just want to chat on chat lines and look at pretty pictures on the net) computer user. FUD keeps them using the same stuff...when they need a server/webserver they get the stuff that they are most familair with. Windows will continue to win until nc's come along in which the browser is the thing or until enough hand holding from some other OS crowd can become large enough to start a change.