Slashdot Mirror
Amiga OS Ch-Ch-Ch-Ch-Ch-Changes
First we heard that Amiga's new OS was going to be based on the
QNX realtime OS. Then we read
that the new Amiga OS would use a Linux kernel, and
QNX issued
this proclamation. Then Amiga issued
this one.
Now Zenn
sends us a link to
this article
from BeDope
that claims the new Amiga OS will really be based on
BeOS. Okay, the BeDope story is a satire, but this Amiga
thing has gotten out of hand. Has Amiga really
settled on the Linux kernel? I wish they'd make up their
minds. I am one of the millions who would (sigh) love to
have an Amiga again...
I really hope they come in and make a truly visionary GUI that blows the whole KDE vs. Gnome vs. Enlightenment thing out of the water.
And I hope they make it free to code for.
If Amiga are using the linux kernel, how much of the other parts of the OS are going to be released under the GPL? I don't think they have a reason to keep their OE proprietary, especially if their using custom hardware. Open Standards/Open Source, and they'll win consumers, including me.
I think I'd wear 2 rubbers for this one.
I think the "Gary," "Buster," and "Ramsey" chips might take issue with your blanket statement. :^)
Then again, if I ever hear my chips verbally complaining... I'll shut off my Amiga and get myself appropriately committed.
-DrPsycho - Coping with reality since 1975
hmm, hasn't it been all the time?
--
"defaultquote."
Ask yourself...
Q: Which OS is more mature and technologically advanced?
Q: Which OS has a better GUI architecture?
Q: What's more important to me: speed + ease of use, or open source?
Q: If open source is more important to me, is it because I actually contribute to the cause, because I like to spread my religious beliefs around without actually contributing, or I just like to jump on the latest cool bandwagon?
I think you'll find a suitable argument for QNX in there.
Open source works. It is a great cause. In times of technology debate, however, I do not accept the RMS-like argument that "you are being immoral by using proprietary sw". I accept the Linus Torvalds argument: he who writes the code chooses the licence and may the best technology win.
IF the whole point to open source becomes the "community-driven" mandate to use lower-quality (but free!) applications and operating systems, I fear the rapid growth we've seen in our area will come to a screetching halt. Linux has succeeded in the mainstream thus far because it actually HAS surpassed many proprietary OS's in terms of features & overall stability. To believe that ALL oss projects will turn out that way is surely a very naive view.
-Stu
Final release of this "Next Generation" Amiga will not be x86 based. Amiga Inc. has stated this categorically. Whether x86 versions will come by later, or if the x86 betas are just cleaned up and released down the road, remains to be seen. But AmigaNG isn't gonna be no IntelBox.
-DrPsycho - Coping with reality since 1975
hmm....I thought they were going to use CP/M...
It's 10 PM. Do you know if you're un-American?
You make the assumption that Amiga will require modifications to the Linux kernel. While it is true that the GPL would require them to release kernel changes to the community, it is not true that they would have to release all of their software, since presumeably their UI, utilities, etc will all be user-land. No GPL restrictions there (unless they did something stupid like link against GPL'd libraries).
-Tom
The Amiga2000 was released in the 80s. I shudder when I hear any Y2K-like references to the Amiga worded that way, as it reminds me of the Amiga2000 that is currently rotting away under my desk (upon which my Amiga4000 sits).
-DrPsycho - Coping with reality since 1975
sub- $500 boxes.
www.pricewatch.com has all sorts of under $500 Linux PCs listed.
Take a look at the online database at National Amiga in Canada. Gives you a flavour for what's still out there.
-DrPsycho - Coping with reality since 1975
>It's amigaOS 3.0 ;)
Came out early 90`s
>"It will be a PPC"!
PPC add on cards have been available for nearly two years.
>a great new company
I take it you have never heard of Gateway then
>Amiga is dead forever. Just forget it.
That may be the case but look at the number of posts on the subject in the last four days 800 for three stories.
QNX is proprietary, it is not a Unix clone, and you cannot get the source code.
On the other hand, it consists of a number of small parts with well defined interfaces, so it's quote possible that QNX could be cloned. It would sure be a hell of a lot easier than WINE.
As copyright owner of this comment, I authorize everyone to defeat any technological measure which limits access to it.
They're shooting for under $500US.
Yeha, I rairly reboot, I think BeOS must be seriously defecctive if ppl who run it take pride in host fast it boots. my linux boots up into console in 5 seconds. Now do i go around being errect about it and claiming my dick can shoot cum further? seesh.. this is rather lame. I guess they are trying to comete with windows 2000 onNOw feature.
Please note that the "Amiga" QNX will be greatly crippled. QNX sells their product to industry for thousands of dollars. Don't expect the real thing available in a $49.95 shrink wrapped box. Also, for a general purpose OS, QNX is a toy. It is missing much functionality that is needed for a full scale general purpose desktop OS.
The hint on processor in the Amiga info is that it will be efficient for running both Linux and Java. And part of their strategy is the assumption that some people will buy the machine to run the Linux OS, as opposed to the Amiga OS running on top of the Linus kernel.
'Nuff said. Amiga forever!
Hmm.. how useful is your x-windows?
x-windows still suck as hell. it lacks many features.
Really don't care what Amiga does. Just one question, why didn't Amiga go to one of the free BSD variants. Free BSD has a much more business friendly licensing agreement than GNU Linux. BSD runs on lots of hardware, has a more organized support system than Linux, is faster, more stable, more predictable regarding releases and updates, has better file system, blah, blah, blah... In every respect, a much better choice for a base kernel than Lin(s)ux. Any thoughts.
Then again, BSD users don't need the attention from Amiga heads, and would not want to bother dealing with their "better off left for dead" OS comeback dreams.
Thanks for passing BSD and going straight to Linux.
now this is an example of extremely mastubatory rumor-mongering...amiga+linus+transmeta chip ...
-- your knees hurt, don't they?
Keep in mind that Neutrino (the OS component) is still being worked on and still does not have all the features of QNX 4. It's a safe bet that the '40 engineers working for the past 7 months' have been working on standard items that were to have been included in Neutrino anyway - QNX seems to simply be spin doctoring the situation to make it appear that they've been terribly shafted by Amiga.
I hope QNX doesn't throw away any Amiga-geared development that they've done - Neutrino will be a fantastic OS once all the features of QNX 4 make it in. Unfortunately, it's darn near impossible to get a copy of QNX or Neutrino to play around with on a hobbyist/hacker level (and I don't mean the demodisk - I want a bootable QNX partition). Perhaps QNX will persue some more multimedia/desktop applications now...
Or make a new version like 'Dos 99', incompatible with any other versions, forcing users to buy all their new software and making it impossible for previous DOS owners to reuse their OS.
I read the amiga.com bbs to have an idea of what the amiga user says of the late news.
I'm a bit confused.
From what I saw, amiga user who are against the linux kernel use basically just repeating again and again that the qnx kernel is technically better, and innovative. (and Realtime... :) )
It seems they'd prefer to have a far technically better kernel, with no support, no apps, performant for the sake of it against a kernel which have been prooved to develop very quickly.
Sounds like they have suicidal tendancies ;)
I have another concern. Again and again they say the original AmigaDos was a micro kernel. I thought microkernels are still research cases even if they are implemented yet. I'd think a small start up like amiga wouldn't have been able to develop such a concept back in 89 (was it before)
It seems too those people are seeing microkernels as the best design. I've read Linus didn't quite agree on that.
Was the AmigaDos kernel really a realtime kernel? If I remember well, lots of apps bypassed the kernel. (games, demos) Would they have done that if it really was Realtime?
And what is this Convergence Technology industry they're talking about? vaporindustry?
I bought an amiga1200 last year. I never owned any amiga before. I realised the os back then was really flexible, user friendly. (the only one gui I was astonished to use naturaly) What if Amiga International brought those elements to Linux? (frankly I don't care, I mostly don't use Gui, but I'd think it would be a reason not to flame Amiga Int. for their switch)
What about the way Amiga Int. deal with its partners... was there no communication between qnx and amigados.
. . . . . . .
may u!sh 2 sm!le at dz!z bad nn.!m!tat!ion
Is it going to be expensive?
What sort of support is there going to be for these machines?
What can Amiga come out with that is not already available?
Personally, I buy on value for money. I dont give a toss if it is 'stylish' or 'revolutionary'.. sounds like its gonna cost lots of money, going to raise compatibility issues.. certainly lost my interest already.
its being developed for x86...whether or not it was going to be the amiga's OS was the question
This may be a silly question either yes or no, but, since the "Amiga OE" is based on the Linux kernel, can it be ported to x86 and the rest? Or is it Amiga OS, and just that, an OS...?
(I hope it will/can be portable, I'm sick of windows, I don't have the time to learn Linux (no flames please), and BeOS isn't maintream)
-L20 "I hate quotes" -L20
It's nice to see people really dedicated to their old Amigas. I am also interested in archaelogy.
Think of it, I myself get this kind of weird feelings about old technology. Simetimes I get the urge to build a real 1940 style relay computer. This would be something to brag about on slashdot.
Shouldn't we start a website for perverted technichians where we could share our ideas about technology from old ages. I think my relay computer and the Amigas would fit very nicely together on such a site.
Anyone that have a large surplus supply of relays?
Should my relay thing also run Linux??
QNX probably wouldn't have been a good choice
for an OS foundation for the Amiga. I took a
quick browse to the QNX website, and they make
a lot of neat stuff. The relevant products to
the decision probably were QNX and QNX/Neutrino.
Each has serious problems as a foundation.
QNX is tied to x86. This alone is a serious
problem, as presumably Amiga would want to go with
a high-performance, clean CPU (e.g. Alpha, PPC,
MIPS, ARM). QNX also lists very few choices as to
what hardware you can use. This may or may not be
a concern in a relatively closed system (in the
sense that the system would be sold mostly
complete), but considering the really keen
hardware Amigas had when they were new, their
target market would probably want something like
a Voodoo3 videocard (for instance), something
not supported by QNX, as most of their hardware
supported looks fairly old.
QNX/Neutrino, unlike QNX, is portable, and it
looks like it supports at least the x86, some
PPC, some MIPS, and a few obscure CPUs. As such,
it probably would be a better choice than QNX
for an AmigaOS, but as stated on the webpage,
most of its components are very minimal.
QNX and QNX/N both look like they'd take a lot of
work to make a consumer product. Is Linux a better
choice? Maybe. What does Amiga need to do? Here
are some ideas:
Select a set of hardware peripherals that are
relatively inexpensive, are made by a vendor
friendly to third-party OS's, and ideally are
close to best-of-breed, and offer their vendor
an exclusive contract where all Amiga-branded
machines come with said hardware in exchange for
price cuts and input into design of said products.
Hardware worth considering:
Voodoo3 Graphics
Alpha CPUs
Ensure that Linux/glibc binaries can run
Write an X server that will talk to the
AmigaOS graqphical layer to allow
X programs to run (within a window?)
Write a really good emulator for the 68k-based
Amigas, ideally capable of running dirty programs
In the end, I imagine we'll probably see something
that doesn't look much like a Linux system as
we know it (i.e. non-X GUI, not Unixy), probably
making extensive use of kernel modules to avoid
GPL issues and keep things closed source.
For every problem, there is at least one solution that is simple, neat, and wrong.
My beos r4.5 boots up within 7 second.
:) example of Www.abisource.com.. it only require 1mb of file to run like a Microsoft word. :)
and beos got rid of over 1000 files from previous 4.0 versions to make more improvements.
their os is getting smaller and smaller.. which means faster and faster?
and redhat is getting bigger and bigger..
:(
just find it funny how many people yesterday thought AmigaOS would be YALD, the only
thing they are using is the kernel, it'd be like calling MacOS X, Nextstep just because it uses
the Mach Kernel. A kernel does not an OS make.
Nope. It would be like calling MacOS X, NextStep, and HURD all Mach. And that's what I call all three.
The kernel is the OS, silly.
People don't have to port Linux to Amiga, there are currently Linux ports for both m68k and PPC Amigas (APUS)
You're right, nobody can garuntee response times on everything.
What RTOSes do is ensure that interrupts are handled efficiently (iterrupt latency is a common measuring stick) and that there are lots of process priorities (rate monotonic designed programs need this) and ensure that a higher priority process gets the CPU as soon as it needs it with minimum delay. In general, fast interrput handling code, very fast context switches and deterministic runtime on any other kernel code that could slow down that critical switch to a higher priority task. Bottom line, very tight and carefully thought out code.
So they cannot stop you from writing a filesystem (let say) that takes forever to do stuff. And they can't do anything about programs running at a lower priority than your slow filesystem.
BUT if there is a shutdown nuclear reactor process with a higher priority than your filesystem, there is nothing you can do to stop that higher process from getting its job done.
Just hypothetically...
Could you take a basic commodity motherboard, based around de facto (open?) standards like PCI, AGP and the x86, but instead of a Celeron, plug in a super-secret super-chip (possibly dynamically econfigurable, possibly containing a DSP core, possibly incorporating alien technology)?
Would this constitute a revolution?
(Would this be possible? I'm not an engineer, whatever my job title says.)
Greetings
I can tell you some things which are efficient about the Amiga's OS.
Like the requirement of one meg RAM for a complete OS with a nice
shell and responsive, extensible GUI. Linux wants eight, and X
windows isn't really happy without 16 megs or more. I don't recall
the last time I added a new device or something stopped working, and I
had to recompile my kernel. Amiga OS does well with its dated
hardware what some 'modern' OS struggles to do without alot more speed
and memory. I admit I'm just a user and am ready for the flames about
not being geek enough to make all those HD partitions, then format
them, then compile and install a LINUX kernel, etc. My dated Amiga
just works, I don't have to do all that. To me, that's efficient. My
brother in law uses and loves LINUX, and I see its a great OS. But
man, does he spend alot of time recompiling and reinstalling drivers,
etc.! I just use my Amiga and it works. Its so much easier than
Windows, I use it in preference to the PC sitting on my desk, even
though the PC is lots faster. (A3000T/040/16Mb vs PC AMD K6/166/32Mb)
The Amiga OS has a feel to it, an elegance, that I haven't seen on any
other platform. It's by no means perfect but untill (unless?) the new
Amigas come out, I'll continue to use it for most things because it
is, among other things...efficient.
Are those the same people working 8 hour days and putting out Windows 95? What about those 'shit' open source crews, that with no motivation but what they decide to motivate themselves with, have built a kernel, a set of tools to run on it and finally, a desktop?
And maybe, Mr. AC-FUD man, you should check out Mozilla. It is a testament to open source. It looks, feels, runs good, even in it's development state. And all IE5 is, is a small update on IE4 (which is a somewhat larger update on IE3, which was a rip of Netscape's superior browser).
40 Engineers * $100,000/12 * 8 months = $2,666,666. Not to mention the other costs which probably added up to atleast 4 million. No wonder why QNX is going to release the operating system without amiga. I am suprised QNX didn't lock Amiga into using their operating system considering all the money they invested.
BeDope is satire, dude.
---
"'Is not a quine' is not a quine" is a quine.
"'Is not a quine' is not a quine" is a quine.
Quine "quine?
Here's they story as I see it: I read somewhere that Gateway have a stake in Transmeta. Amiga wanted to use it *from day one*. They approached QNX to do the OS and - here's the tenious bit - as Linus had a pretty visible envolvement with Transmeta, it might not look so good that the first OS to appear on their flagship CPU was effectively a rival to their best known developer's baby. They told Amiga that they wanted them to use Linux at which point, Amiga started looking at other processors. Given that QNX are asking for PowerPC enabled developers, it seems that this is their CPU of choice. Obviously, Amiga like what they see with the Transmeta and so Linux won. That said, it sounds like that whatever makes up the Amiga OE is going to be portable.
Aren't there some sort of exit clauses in whatever contract Amiga had with QNX? If Amiga was having QNX do OS work for them, then who owns it?
Or am I mistaken about this all? I don't follow the Amiga scene at all.
if you were implementing UNIX on top of NT (you can do that too, but it's messy).
Actually, if you look at the product architecture drawing for the Interix UNIX-on-NT product, it doesn't look messy at all. It sits right on top of the NT kernel and not on Win32.
--
Business. Numbers. Money. People. Computer World.
--former old-school mindless Amiga advocate
Ok. You associate Microsoft with creativity here, and even by purchase, the mere concept is disgusting. Microsoft was only creative about deception. The product history of most of thier line is so fraught with buggy, unusable and outright systemcidal releases that you could argue that it's current state of development in Windows is attributable to forced trial and error under less than Darwinian cirumstances. Yes, they bought some creative people and technologies, but they rarely use that, opting instead much later to create a version that also accomplishes a more private, secondary aim, usually of no user benefit. Microsoft is not here today in that state due to creativity, purchased or otherwise. Associating a word like creativity with Microsoft is rupugnant.
From the little I've read, it looks like the Linux kernel will be used because of it's driver support.
The GUI on top of QNX looks really neat, but it sounds like if we ever see that, it'll be a separate project (or run on top of the Linux kernel... I hope).
The BeOS idea sounds like vaporware, like Taligent (and like the new Amiga too, if they don't stop yapping and start shipping).
Anyhow, I hope they add on to an existing OS, or make things very compatible. I need a new 'standard' like I need a hole in the head. (Pop quiz: what's the character(s) for the end of a line in a text file? How about the end of the file?)
pb Reply or e-mail; don't vaguely moderate.
"Actually, the Linux kernel is *not* a GNU project."
are you sure? haven't the FSF made Linux the official GNU kernel (given that HURD won't be ready before a long time)? A GNU project isn't forced to be developped by the FSF, this can be given by the FSF if your work can help them to create a free replacement for a software. Gnome is also a Gnu projec but i don't think there are a lot of people working on it at the FSF.
Of course, correct me if I am wrong
"The obvious mathematical breakthrough would be development of an easy way to factor large prime numbers." Bill Gates,
IMHO, the only reason apple has survived (before the Imac revival) is due to all the advertising hype.
Actually Apple survived because they realized that as a nitch platform the only way was to charge a big premium (such as $10,000 for a stripped IIfx) and sink those 60% margins into lots of R+D and marketing. Apple survivied the lean years primarily on things they thought up during the fat years (things like UI Research, QuickTime and the 68K emulator).
Commodore/Amiga had a different plan - sell the machine for less money (lower margins) and then find that you have no money left over for R+D and marketing. Thus the platform never really technically advanced or gained market share. After a few years everyone else has caught up on Amiga's technology, and there was no reason left to use it.
Bottom line - Amiga might have survived if they followed Apple's lead and made people pay through the nose when they had the technological advantage.
--
Business. Numbers. Money. People. Computer World.
Here's a little hint for you - PPC *IS* risc.
Oh, and PPC Amigas have been out for nearly two years.
Let's see. What else do you come out with? Ah yes...
"It's linux-based!" "No, it's qnx"
Erm, nice to see you paying attention. Shame you screwed up by getting it 100% wrong. Still, can't let facts get in the way of a discussion, can we. (Hint - QNX was announced first, THEN it was changed to Linux. Can't you even get something as simple as that right?)
Oh yes. You REALLY show off your knowledge with your quote "It's amigaOS 3.0"
Hello? OS3.0 came out like 4 or 5 YEARS ago!!! Nobody is saying they are going to launch OS3.0. At least TRY to keep up, will you?
a great new company bought the amiga "
Who has been claiming that then? No-one, despite your attempts to claim otherwise. Hint - Gateway 2000 are the company who bought Amiga, 2 years ago.
I guess you really need to update your pointless flames, eh?
oh, how I pray for support for old amiga progs and files somehow! maybe a built-in emulator? That would be only fair to us amiga fans who never believed/repressed commodore's fall and kept our amiga boxes alive.
Aha, but you forget reverse psychology! Since it would be obvious that Transmeta was a player in this if Linus commented on it, then Linus therefore has no choice BUT to comment on it.
j/k...
Anyhow, given the people they've hired, it doesn't look like Transmeta cares much either way. If I had to guess, it looks like their trying to design a chip to take advantage of some of the advances in real-time code generation (especially in operating systems). Think about it -- if you had a specializer to minimize certain critical paths in the OS based on the capabilities of the machine (using partial evaluation or something) you'd end up with a pretty fast machine.
This also seems to tie in with the rumors that they are making tools to make it easy to translate between instruction sets easy. They seem to have some people there who's primary research interests were in things like the semantics of programming languages. Maybe they'll have a way to quickly build specifiers to translate between different low-level instruction set.
Or maybe they're researching next generation hand-towels!
-NooM
This is the text of an email I sent to the president of Amiga. Please pardon the line length formatting; sadly, Slashdot doesn't yet have terribly good tools for fixing it.
Mr. Collas --
I read with great interest your announcement that future versions of the
Amiga operating environment will be based on the Linux kernel. The
importance of the Amiga system as an alternative operating system is well
known among users of Linux-based systems. As a Debian GNU/Linux system
administrator with some knowledge of the benefits of the Amiga, I can only
expect that the two will complement each other nicely.
As you may already know, the Linux kernel is released under the GNU
General Public License, a "free software" license intended to ensure that
free software remains free --- that nobody can turn a piece of free
software into proprietary software without the author's permission.
One of the provisions of the GPL states that if you take a piece of GPLed
software, modify it, and release it, you are legally required to release
it under the GPL itself, and to provide your users the source code of your
modifications upon request. That is, "derivative works" of GPLed code
must themselves be GPLed and released with source available.
Because the Linux kernel, and most of the common utilities that form the
rest of Linux-based systems, are GPLed, this means that if Amiga were to
make customizations to them for use in the Amiga OE, those customizations
would have to be released back to the community.
The best way to do this, of course, is for Amiga's programmers and
engineers to participate in the Linux community -- to get those
customizations inserted into the mainstream Linux kernel rather than
"forking" the project and creating a separate Amiga-only development tree.
While the latter is legal under GPL (as long as you release source) it
reduces the benefits that both Amiga and Linux can gain from the free-
software (aka "open source") model. Cooperating and being involved with
the kernel project also would earn the respect and admiration of the
existing Linux user base, whereas forking the kernel would likely elicit
some degree of displeasure, not to say contempt.
Naturally, being involved in mainstream kernel development means accepting
a certain reduction of control over the code your OE uses -- after all,
the kernel development effort is led by Linus and Alan, and they say what
goes in and what doesn't. However, it also means that fixes and
improvements to the mainstream kernel will automatically be compatible
with the one Amiga uses; a forked Amiga-only kernel would require merging
of patches, a procedure that's not painless.
Back on the issue of the GPL -- besides it being *legally* important that
Amiga follow the *letter* of the GPL, it is also *culturally* important
that Amiga respect its *spirit*. The GPL is of great cultural importance
among Linux developers and users, and respect for it is highly valued. It
would be a good move for Amiga to make it clear to the community that you
intend to abide by both the letter and spirit of the GPL in your use of
the Linux kernel in your operating environment.
Conferring with Linux's "leaders" (among whom I'd rank Linus Torvalds and
Eric S. Raymond as the two foremost) would also be a good move in the
sense of showing connection with rather than separation from the Linux
community. Linux works and grows by widespread communication, not by
press releases; opening more lines of communication between Amiga and
Linux can only help.
I wish you luck in your endeavor, and look forward to seeing greater
connection between the Amiga and Linux development and user communities.
Thank you for your attention.
--- [my real name deleted]
First, let me say that arcticle was hilarious. I've been a fan of BeDope for awhile, its much better than segfault.
I just find it funny how many people yesterday thought AmigaOS would be YALD, the only thing they are using is the kernel, it'd be like calling MacOS X, Nextstep just because it uses the Mach Kernel. A kernel does not an OS make.
cheese logs keep my wang warm at night.
dude re-read the story or look at the first post.
cheese logs keep my wang warm at night.
Well, first off, remember one main reason he gave for picking Linux is the wide array of device drivers (which FreeBSD is lacking in) and that commercial vendors have started writing drivers for the Linux kernel (which all the BSD's lack).
Second off, FreeBSD effectively doesn't run on anything but x86. What is the new Amiga going to be based on? G4? x86? Merced? (I really don't know). Granted, NetBSD has been ported to more architectures then Linux, but between NetBSD and Linux, I'll pick Linux anyday.
Honestly, on a tangent, my one problem with the BSD's is the licencing issue. When I'm installing a system or writing code, I pick Linux. Not because I don't like BSD, but because I don't want to throw my chip into a system that, if it ever did become successful, would just be plundered and splintered by commercial interests recreating the unix wars of the 80's and 90's. I stick with Linux 'cause of the GPL virus. Although there may be many flavors of GNU/Linux systems, they will always feed off each other and converge based only on natural selection and not on the commercial interests of rich industrialists.
I agree but seems like there are still magazines and actuall user base for Amiga in Europe.
I don't know what are they running as even A4000 at this time is so obsolete it is hard to imagine anybody using that kind of system ( especially when much more powerfull PCs are so cheap )
Idiot. If you are going to tell people not to flame then at least make some sense.
Stallman has nothing to do with Linux. HURD is the GNU kernel. Since Amiga is unlikely to bundle GNU as the base OS system (libs and apps) then it needn't really include GNU in the name like Linux should. If the Linux kernel is used with other lib sets and apps then it needn't include GNU.
If the new Amiga is to be a GLIBC system with GNU apps as standard and the Amiga bit being tantamount to an E theme then yes, it should pay homage.
Phill
That explains why this article got posted at all. Except for the BeDope link, everything had appeared in yesterday's article already.
Roblimo, instead of trying to not look as an idiot, just add an update like Rob always does, and admit you goofed up. Revisionist history is scary.
The astronauts of the nineteenth century were the explorers---those intrepid men, often British, who mounted expeditions from the club rooms of Pall Mall to the most exotic hinterlands of the world. When the astronauts came back from the moon they told their stories to Life magazine. When the Victorians returned from their expeditions, they presented their findings in lectures before the Royal Geographical Society, and then they wrote their memoirs in large leather-bound volumes. But make no mistake; they were some of the greatest celebrities of their age.
Today we have Linus Torvalds to look up to and admire. The magic that Linus and Transmeta are now working on will find its form embodied in the new Amiga, a combination of some of the greatest technological breakthroughs in the history of computer science. It is this stunning combination of software and hardware wizardry which will lead us into the 21st century. When Linus finally sits back and gives us his leather-bound memoirs, the history of Transmeta and Amiga Linux will be a most delightful read, a peek into the mind of one of our few god-like mortals.
And what "good" Amiga software relied on the hardware? In my eyes, if it relied on the hardware, except for the games, it was shit. And even in the case of the games, lots of stuff was written that didn't mess directly with the hardware (Pirates, for instance... I still miss it... Maybe it's time to boot up my A3000 again.. Or the C64... Sigh, I remember messing with the BASIC v2 part of Pirates :-)
IMHO, BeOS sucks. It has nothing of what made me love the Amiga.
Agreed.
Amiga is dead forever. Just forget it.
Every year there's a rumor about a new amiga coming out. "It will be a PPC"! "It's gonna be RISC!" "It's linux-based!" "No, it's qnx" "It's amigaOS 3.0".."a great new company bought the amiga technology!"..and nothing ever comes out at the end.
There will be no new amiga out on the market. It died when Commodore died. That's all.
I thought I read this yesterday.
Of course, after seeing this announcement yesterday, anything is possible. I'm sure Amiga Inc's other "close development partners" are shaking in their shoes. Who'll be next to get the axe?
-DrPsycho - Coping with reality since 1975
One thing most people seem to ignore, though, is that Linux (the OS), is defined by way more than Linux the kernel. An Amiga that uses the Linux kernel, and Amiga system libraries, Amiga shells, an Amiga GUI etc., won't look much like Linux the OS at all.
However, it will likely just be a question of adding the right libraries and binaries to let it run all Linux applications.
And this is the sweet thing about this: They can completely redefine the OS, by building something new on top of the kernel, without loosing Linux compatibility.
Which means that they can provide whatever "revolutionary" features they like, and at the same time offer access to the huge amount of existing Linux software out there.
That is something they wouldn't get with QNX - the amount of available QNX software is a lot smaller.
Contrary to QNX there is also a huge groundswell of support for Linux from third parties, and it will be a LOT easier to convince those third parties to provide Amiga applications, if they can do it in a way that let their apps run on Linux as well (maybe with some Amiga specific functionality taken out).
This can be good for Linux too, because Gateway is throwing lots of money at this, and if they start getting people to port to the Amiga, and the Amiga uses the Linux kernel, and can run Linux applications, a lot of those people are likely to make sure their applications run without the Amiga operating environment too.
In a way, I see what they are trying to do as something similar to OpenStep, which is a set of API's, that run on top of any host OS you care to port it to (ref. www.gnustep.org. It completely redefines the interface to the user, and for the developer, but the host OS is still there, and easily accessible.
If well done, it also means that if Amiga Inc. in the future should choose to support other host OS's besides Linux, any applications written to the Amiga OE APIs should instantly run in that environment.
Duh!
How can you compare a 13 year old machine like the A500 to your state of the art PC.
I've got a 286 in my closet but I much rather use
my AMIGA4000T/PPC604,200MHZ/128MB/PICASSOIV system
that is much more powerful on my desk.
Get a life, cause u dont have a clue.
I have a 450 mhz kick ass PC aswell but there are many programs and features that are superior on the AMIGA(and no they arent 10 years old).
Since I have several computers I can choose,
(I emulate mac on the Amiga as well).
Whats wrong with choice?
As far as software goes theres still programs on the way and a lot of free linux software is ported to the AMIGA all the time.
OS 3.5 for the classic Amigas are released next month.
As far as a new hardware platform I might agree,
but the point of the new Amiga is to bring more power and at a cheaper price then modern computers
and since you like LINUX you might be interested in it, since it uses Linux kernel.
Any alternatives to Microsoft is healthy I personally wouldnt put any new computer
or operating system down until ive seen it.
They are going to take the kernel and build the new AmigaOS (or OE if you prefer) on top of it. No bash, not csh, no X, not qt, no gtk, none of that stuff! It will not resemble a Linux distro as we know it.
MrT
Dead, my behind. If it was not for AMIGA, MicroSloth would still be selling you 8 bit
16 color. You would still be saying "no one needs multitasking" and believing it
It took Wintell 10 years and a processor speed of 200+MHz for Windoze to do what a
25Mhz 68030 Amiga can do, as fast as it can do it. Even then there is constant lock-
ups and crashes. Don't get me wrong, I don't blame Microsoft, I blame the people that
blindly follow allong with B.G and accept a sub-standard OS and applications that are
nothing but memory hogs and cause more crashes than any number of drunken drivers. Then
there is the processor that you use, no mater what it is, it is still an 8088 at heart,
MS-Dos in it's earliest form will run on even the most current Pentium chip without a
problem. I know this because I am a computer tech. and I deal with this every day.
Even Motorola was wise enough to loose some compatability when they upgraded
their chips, the bigest change being when they went from the 68010 to the 68020.
No, the Amiga hasn't been updated in a few years, but I would have and older, more
stable P.C. than anything that Big Brother Gates would try to force feed me. Besides
Amiga is getting a major update now, and again it will be the revolutionary P.C. it was,
but then you would probably accept the MS standard line "You don't need to do that with a
PC", all the while they will be trying to steal the technology. As any one with an I.Q.
above 2 can figure out MS has never had an original Idea.
Daryl
Amiga back for the future.
you submited in HTML Formated,
you need plain text if you want formating, or put in your own HTML
_
"Subtle mind control? Why do all these HTML buttons say 'Submit' ?"
ReadThe ReflectionEngine, a cyberpunk style n
First off, you (And any Linux user that makes your type of statements with no clue what's going on.) are misinformed. (I deleted the less kind words I had at first typed in favor of a more diplomatic stance...) Please read on... this means something for all of us...
*NOBODY IS TALKING ABOUT THE CLASSIC AMIGA HERE*
(Although the classic Amiga CAN do things the other platforms can't still...)
We are talking about a whole NEW, NEXT LEVEL design... using industry standard components (For the most part.. PCI, AGP.. FireWire.. whatever.) But something completely NEW.. non Intel.. Non Windoze.. something not constrained by the "Plug n Play" boundaries..
We are talking about something wonderful.. not bragging.. not trying to take anything FROM you.. Amiga (The NEW Amiga) are trying to help bring computers into the next generation... something better than Fast CPU's... better than Bigger Hard drives.. or Faster 3D Video Cards... something NEW..
What is it? Sorry, I don't know.. but much of it will be explained by the 24th of this month.
All Amiga is asking is that you watch...and look at what they are doing... I'm sure you waste enough time surfing your news sites and reading the latest review at Tomshardware etc... so read Amiga.com or better yet Amiga.org and just learn before you preach.. you might be surprised...
I was a little shocked to see this response coming from an alternative OS group... I thought you guys would understand..
Just check it out...
Regards,
Jack C. Thompson
Aka Scotsman / Godzilla
Amiga User and Proud
(And yeah, I've got a PC and a Mac and an SGI and I run a plethora of OS's.. including Linux so it's not that I don't know better.. I know, and I still choose Amiga..)
so what makes you so sure they didn't tell qnx? the fact that qnx doesn't want you to think they
knew? one way or the other its all about money when companies are involved so, yes, make qnx
happy and buy their os to 'take it out for a spin' but don't get unhappy when there aren't drivers
for your hardware...
linux is neato but hardly a "breakthrough".
its a freebie ripoff of code that is probably older than you, with some crap slapped around it to make it more digestable
If you want to release anything before doomsday.
A good group of tight-knit programmers working 8 hours a day in the same room can knock the shit out of any open source crew. That is why IE is at version 5 and Mozilla is at version 0.
I think Jim is doing an outstanding job. Some decision-making about the future of the Amiga is better than none at all. Linux is a logical choice for Amiga NG. Did anyone hear of QNX before is was mentioned be Amiga,Inc.? This could be good for Linux as well because having a platform not dominated by Microsloth Windoze will provide coherence for Linux. Thanks goes to you Jim and keep the momentum going.
Does this mean we get Quake 3 Jim ;) ?.
I don't suppose it was those same Gateway people who thought it might be best you took the Linux route ?.
Not being a particularly enthusiastic QNX or Linux fan I'll adopt the 'wait and see' approach. And talking of waiting, how does this affect the 'schedule' ?.
A fairly mystified (as per usual) Amiga fan.
Oh, and please say we can still use C++ !.
Apparently their biggest concern was hardware support. I am posting this from FreeBSD right now so I'm obviously no anti-FreeBSD bigot, but FreeBSD is very much aimed at the server market, not the home market -- sound support is minimal, the range of hardware devices supported is much smaller than Linux, and folks like Creative and Real are supporting Linux with their latest and greatest software and hardware, not FreeBSD. Given that the Amiga has always been about graphics and sound, choosing an OS that doesn't support any sound card made after 1998 doesn't make sense...
The biggest bloat in Linux is userland, not the kernel. This may be where Amiga Inc. can innovate. Who knows, they might even use userland stuff from FreeBSD to avoid the licensing hassles...
-E
Send mail here if you want to reach me.
Me thinks it is strange that people still regard ;)
;p
the hardware/software to what defines the Amiga
(read platform); it is the way in which a "philosophy of use" is put forward by the ones who made/make this computer.This same way a Mac is put forward in their adds; as a philosophy not just Chips,Bytes and Herz.Simple put,people who buy a computer (for the first time or a different platform), don't buy it 'cause of the hardware or software,but because of the concept it carries out; user-friendliness, speed, stability, functionality or a balanced interaction between these,etc,etc.Now you cannot judge upon such a system until you "drive its' mouse for a mile",so to say.Now I have been driving mice of all kinds of platforms and I still like my Amiga OS, because of the balance between graphical and textual interface (which makes it quite transparent).I certainly don't want to see this lost in the AmigaNG's.But some people like the emphasis on just the textual OR graphical interface and that's the beauty of it.We make and seek the system that suits our needs and ideas the best*.That just makes us proliferate ourselfs as individuals; if everyone looked the same,we would get tired of looking at eachother,wouldn't we?
*which can best be done on a Amiga ofcourse
Hmm gee, should I use an OS with an open kernel or pay extra to use exactly the same OS with a proprietary kernel? Hmmm hmmm hmmm. Real toughie there.
1) Yes, the Amiga kernel was a microkernel. It was developed in 1984 as the core of what was going to be a killer game machine, which was later developed out into a personal computer when the game machine market tanked (back then, it came back later, of course). There are advantages to having a real microkernel in a game machine, mostly in that it makes handling simultaneous tasks in a smooth manner much easier. For example, the mouse and joystick drivers ran as tasks, meaning that you didn't lose mouse moves just because you were busy doing complex 3d rendering operations.
2) The Amiga kernel was NOT a real-time kernel. It lacked performance guarantees and microsecond-resolution timing capabilities. However, it WAS very small, fast, and light-weight. The best way to describe it is "near-real-time". The QNX kernel is actually much closer to the Amiga kernel in that respect than the Linux kernel is -- the Linux kernel is very sloppy with its task switching and swap space management, thus the reason for the frequent mouse pointer staggering when you are doing something heavily CPU and memory intensive. (FreeBSD, BTW, doesn't do that).
3) Using a microkernel as the basis for a full-scale OS may be a research topic in many quarters, but it's a no-brainer in the real-time OS industry. The Amiga microkernel was designed as a near-realtime kernel for the insides of a game machine, not as the basis for a consumer OS. Thus it was certainly state-of-the-art at the time, but it was not research-topic state-of-the-art. However, later layering a consumer OS on top of that microkernel WAS research-topic state-of-the-art, and that was where, due to the whole research uncertainty regarding how to do so, Commodore made some unfortunate decisions that later crippled attempts to bring the layered consumer OS up-to-date with later advances such as cheap hi-res video cards, virtual memory (remember, 1984, no MMU's were available then at a reasonable cost for low-end microcomputers), and large amounts of memory.
4) Bypassing the OS and going to the hardware: One decision made early in Amiga development was to have the ability to go directly to the graphics hardware in a well-managed manner. This was because of the problems inherent with doing fast games on an 8mhz 68000 processor. Going through a graphics API is just too slow on such a slow processor. Going directly to the graphics hardware generally meant opening up a new virtual screen (familiar to us Linux folks, right?!) which was unmanaged by the window manager and which had a dedicated frame buffer. You could then scribble into its frame buffer directly. Note that in AmigaOS the OS handled pull-down menus, and one problem was keeping Intuition from arguing with your application. I believe there was a locking mechanism that your application had to abide by in order to keep from getting into a fight there (i.e., Intuition would set a lock of some sort to signal that it was grabbing part of your frame buffer to draw a menu), but I don't remember enough from that era to tell you (that was over 10 years ago, for cryin' out loud!). That wasn't a concern for games, of course, which used the OS to get keystrokes and mouse clicks but otherwise weren't concerned with the OS and certainly weren't setting up any menus for Intuition to manage!
5) Unlike many, I'm not particularly concerned about delays getting out the "New Amiga" as long as they do it right. Those of us who used Amiga Classic know just how badly you can screw up by doing things wrong (MetaCompost and BCPL, guys!), and once the platform was released, it was too late to fix it due to backward compatibility issues.
6) But, like many former Amiga folks, I'm not holding my breath. A prominent early Amiga developer said to a co-worker that he'd been screwed over so many times by Amiga that he didn't believe a word anybody said anymore. That credibility gap isn't getting any smaller.
-E
I will keep this short and to the point.The amiga isnt dead because the users will not let it die.We the users are far to fond of our miggies to let them die.
There is now as there has always been a strong but quiet user base that just refuses to roll over and buy a p.c.Every weekend I attend amiga club meetings
with a large number of other like minded people just as i did in the late 80s.The Amiga cant last forever without new technology but it is still alive today
how much?
what's included?
where are you located(shipping costs)?
>>Sig under construction
hmm.. people like me want it, people with brains enough to think for themselves just might be interested. People who have managed to avoid the M$ Worldwide brainwash. Believe me, half of my Amiga holds 2000 times the potential and legacy of your drooling PC clone.
Show a Linux box and a Wintel box to a newbie and they won't be able to tell the difference. In fact the newbie will probably out of ignorance say that linux is a rip-off of windows. Many linux and BeOS users don't agree with you. BeOS has a better chance at getting into the home market than linux because it will take too much time to get linux up to the level of ease of use that BeOS has (or even god forbid windows has). I don't see why any Linux user would want to push Linux as a consumer OS when it is much better as a server OS. If you Linux everwhere type people aren't careful you could end up making Linux just as bad as windows (that would suck big time).
---Got Coffee?---
I understand that BeOS also uses great chunks of mach.
- C
Believe with me, my saplings.
I thought it was going to be based on a Cray T3E..
Agreed though, who wants ANOTHER computer platform. And if they go proprietary again, it will be just like the old days, only they will die more rapidly this time since what can they offer that the rest of the industry cannot? And if its PPC based, who wants another one of those systems around, don't we have enough already (Macs, Powerstacs, RS6000, AS400, etc.etc.etc)
IMHO, the only reason apple has survived (before the Imac revival) is due to all the advertising hype. When the amiga was around years ago, if you asked me what IBM was, I woud say "computer". If you asked me what a mac was, I could say "computer". Hell, if you asked me what a TANDY was, I would say "computer"(ugh). But Amiga, the first image that came to mind was a new space ship in the starwars line of toys.
If they run linux, get themselves known, keep the system open, they may stand a chance. Best of luck to the Amiga. (the'll need it!)
Overheard some developers talking about all of this yesterday. They were making distinctions between the use of the Linux Kernel in a future AmigaOE, and the use of the Linux MicroKernel. I've never splitexistential hairs like that before (which is why I was basically eavesdropping instead of participating). Goofy?
-DrPsycho - Coping with reality since 1975
Talking about new os and stuff.. Trumpet Software will soon be releasing their own OS with is going to run windows 9x/nt apps natively. Also it will support IPv6.
I ate my tag line.
I ate my tag line.
-=Ellis (D)25=-
Among the sketches are a number of palmtop/tablet device designs. They even go into some laptop-like systems, "kitchen countertop" systems, and definitely gaming systems.
Still. Sketches are one things. I need to see it to believe it.
Touch it. Feel it. Love it.
-DrPsycho - Coping with reality since 1975
And if it still runs Linux apps., that also mean that they instantly have a huge software base for it, to kickstart the acceptance of the platform.
How much better do you think Be would have done it if they had added a compatibility layer to let for instance Linux apps run unmodified on it, so they could have said "look, there's already thousands of applications that run on our OS"?
They would still have all their other advantages, but they would have an initial software base too.
The other point here, is that this means that they always have all the Linux applications, and in addition, they can boast about any extra features and apps. they get that aren't available anywhere else. So they take the Linux hype and support, and give you all of that, and then some.
That's a good model. Instead of just having the "and then some" part, they get the Linux part for free.
Since the Linux kernel is a Gnu project and anything that uses GNU software absolutely *must* be prefixed with "Gnu", it should be "Gnu/Amiga". Otherwise RMS will walk out of any press conferences where people refuse to call it by it's *proper* name ;-)
| I think that Amiga really has the muscle to push
| linux into the mainstream.
In all honestly, I think that *Linux* just might have the muscle to put the *Amiga* into the mainstream. Linux has been steadily growing for years now. The Amiga has been dying since 1992.
Of course, these days I just can't get excited anymore about a new "Amiga" coming out - if in fact it ever does.
-- Rick
Me? I'm happy to discuss what they're working on... it's nice to see someone is actually attempting to do something. But I won't be completely happy or even concrete in my thinking about Amiga's future path(s) until I start seeing some product. And I dont mean their silly products like offical Amiga boxer shorts and AmiCola. (I'm not kidding, see it here).
"Death is just the beginning. - Amiga T-shirt.
-DrPsycho - Coping with reality since 1975
Okay, why don't we simply throw away what made the Amiga great and replace it with everybody else is using? Oh, wait... they're doing that, aren't they? I think the QNX idea is much better as an alternative platform (if it ships by the end of the millenium...) Linux is what those nasty peecee's use. Blech.
If you're going to tap the linux marketing hype, you have to use linux. Nobody has heard of FreeBSD.
- C
Believe with me, my saplings.
We bought several licences of OS/2 for Windows I think and then didn't install (or installed and then disabled) Windows and deinstalled DOS support for work.
Believe with me, my saplings.
My company does testing and we are constantly booting, rebooting, configuring and reconfiguring. Half a dozen boxes running different OSes at any one time.
Can you tell me (or point me to a HOWTO) how I can get our Linux boxes to boot up (into X) in 10 seconds or under?
Slashdot == News
BeDope == Satire (at least as far as I can tell)
'nuf said.
Do you have any idea how much power relays draw? You'd burn your house down...
Its actually really stupid that they go with _one_ port of an OS for Amiga. If a bunch of people wanted to , they'd go and port Linux to work with Amiga now.
QNX is rather legacy, at least in their support, but its got two things, one good, one bad: 1) spiffy screenshots that make me quiver, and 2) _huge_ pricing... Bad Juujuu.
Be... Damn, I can't remember if Be is free... who knows. Anyway, same way, if a buncha people felt particularly good that day, and decided to port BeOS to Amiga, they'd do it.
Again, going with _one_ OS isn't the answer. If whatshisface is thinking straight, hed realize this, and perhaps get his elbows/hands dirty and play with some code too.
Blessed Be! --"LEVIATHAN"
Weird
It seems like the strength (for what it's worth) of the x86 hardware that many people run Linux on is it's open-ness. Multiple sources for CPUs and chipsets are good, and it's all a very well characterized hardware base to do kinda good computing on.
Is this new Amiga architecture going to be open and well documented? The old Amiga was well documented, but the hardware was almost entirely proprietary.
Does the adage
Propietary != good
Open == good
apply when it comes to hardware? Is there room for a successful machine built on a closed, single sourced hardware design in this day and age?
I always felt that the classic Amiga architecture was a bunch of proprietary chips named after girls was a strong negative.
You mean all the reading I've been doing to keep myself on top of the computer scene has gone to waste?
Hmm.. Well, BeOS is good, Amiga OS is good.
But it doesn't mean that it is successful
in the market.
Except for the Linux, other OSes than the Windows
are not successful enough to survive.
Whether you admit it or not, there are two strong
OSes for personal computers. ( tech. + user base )
Yes. One is the Windows and the other is Mac OS.
But, as you know, the Windows is too strong.
Can a new OS have its own market which are enough
large for getting users' and developers' attention?
Are Amiga famous as Mac, OS/2 in countries other
than the U.S.?
It would be hard to make the new Amiga recognizable in the world market.
Let's see what will happen.
You only have to get hit in the head so many times before you learn to duck. :^)
-DrPsycho - Coping with reality since 1975
Actually, the Linux kernel is *not* a GNU project. If they use Amiga utilites rather than the GNU utilities, then Amiga/Linux *is* correct, and it does indeed look like Stallman is correct in his naming system for the GNU/Linux we commonly think of as simply "Linux".
In light of this it sounds like Stallman's convention is the right way to go, as it clearly spells out what you're getting.
The Amiga kernel was called Exec, and it really is a micro kernel. It might have been realtime as well, but I'm not sure about that. Realtime is overrated anyway. The C-64 was realtime. Realtime doesn't mean it's fast, just that a process is guaranteed to get cpu time within some amount of time.
One of the reasons that Exec was a blazingly fast micro kernel is that there's no memory protection of any kind. It's a lot more difficult if not impossible to come up with a micro kernel offering full protection and an efficiency anywhere close to that of Exec.
You say that games bypassed the kernel. Maybe some did, but are you sure you know what the Amiga kernel is? It's not Intuition, the user interface. It's not even the file system. You can bypass all that and still make use of the Amiga micro kernel.
The computer you speak of is dead and died years ago and I accept that. But the people with the capability of creating the legendary Amiga are alive and creating like they did years ago.
Microsoft is strong today because of creative ideas, the ones they purchase from creative people and companies. As long as good ideas are up for sale, Microsoft will prevail.
But times are different now. Ideas aren't for sale under the GPL, the're free. And this is why Microsoft and all other companies who depend on other people for great ideas, will lose. The GPL drains Microsoft's source of life and they know it.
Don't dismiss a group of people with great ideas just yet, look at what is happening with Linux.
Rich
ayottesoftware.com
Eh? For a start, they can provide a completely different user-space --- and I don't mean just a "user interface".
/sbin/init and the programs run by it; the kernel itself only defines (a) the *raw* --- not libc-"cooked" --- kernel interface and (b) /sbin/init as the program run to "launch" user space.
Just because the kernel is Linux doesn't mean the system riding on top of it has to look anything like a typical Linux distribution. Most of what ordinary people (as opposed to kernel developers) think of as "Linux" is defined not by the kernel, but by
Pathnames? They're part of the raw kernel interface. If the standard library doesn't export routines which use kernel-style pathnames, they're effectively invisible to userspace unless a program makes raw system calls using assembly language: can *you* tell whether libc.so/DOSCALL1.DLL/whatever's open() is a simple wrapper around the kernel's "open" syscall or a complex one which maps DOS or Mac or VMS, etc. conventions to the kernel? In a properly designed system, the kernel interface would be entirely irrelevant to everyone except OS and kernel programmers; in particular, neither application developers nor users need to care. Apple's "Carbon" (aka Yellow Box, etc.) is based on the same idea.
-- brandon s. allbery, sysadmin @ cmu electrical & computer engineering "Think, youth, THINK!"
Man.. reading this really bring back some great
memories. Remember Delta/RSI, Laxity/Kefrens, Dr. Skull/VD, jmagic and all the other great coders? Getting all fuzzy and warm on the inside.
Demoscene rules
I don't get it?
Amiga, along with Atari, has been dead for years.
Drop it already. No one wants it.
Looking forward to the technology brief.
--exa--
I don't think s/he's an idiot. Or even the idiot. Read it again. No, Stallman has nothing to do with Linux - except of course it is released under a license he wrote. The point is he seems to propose that distributions be named as "<Distribution>/<Kernel>", which has some merit. And under such a scheme, a Linux kernel-based AmigaOS would be called "AmigaOS/Linux" or something similar. Slashdot note: handling of '<' and '>' is thoroughly fucked in plain text mode, and handling of the escaped versions '<' and '>' in extrans is doubly fucked. Oh, and it doesn't work in HTML mode either. Sheesh.
> I really wish Amiga would start putting its plans into motion. Its always a bad sign when a
> company says they'll do blah A, then decide Blah B,and then doing absolutly nothing.
How do you know they're not doing anything? There is a *lot* of stuff involved in what they're doing, and most of it is visible only to the people working on the infrastructure (which is invisible and meaningless to most people). Part of the reason Linux got going so quickly is that there were convenient GNU and BSD user-space programs sitting around that already fit on top of it because Linux was designed to be interface-compatible with them from the start; Amiga Inc. has to start almost from scratch with the user space. It's a *big* job, and one that's virtually unnoticeable until it's almost ready for release relative to the entire development cycle.
An example: how much of Berlin development is actually visible to most people? Not much, except to the people developing it. Does that mean it's nothing but vapor, or just that it's not yet ready for people to start *using* it yet? (Well, Berlin is somewhat more visible because its development is a' la bazaar, but that's another issue entirely.)
-- brandon s. allbery, sysadmin @ cmu electrical & computer engineering "Think, youth, THINK!"
who's next?
C'mon, folks, read between the lines: the beta program was announced by QNX, not by Amiga. In any significant development program schedule, what is a beta program? No, not a chance to debug. It is a milestone in the schedule, and a measurement of completion.
And what's usually attached to such milestones? A check. I'll bet that this is the stage at which Amiga would've had to cut QNX a (very large?) check. Either Gateway/Amiga didn't have the cash, or was unwilling to part with the money.
Classic Amigas were always about Cheap. Compare, in its day, the A500 vs. any PC. And remember that all models supported NTSC/PAL video in case you were too cheap to buy a monitor.
The bottom line must've been that Linux is "free," and QNX isn't.
And forthcoming processors? What's the cheapest firesale CPU you might scrape off the bottom of the market? You'd of course have to keep quiet about it until you'd managed to secure the supply... Remember, with a low-overhead OS, you don't need a lot of computing power...
One other little worry: does it seem in any of the announcements that Collas has any understanding of what the GPL will mean for Amiga's kernel modifications?
QNX isn't proprietary? Where do I download the source code? I might give it a try, then.
And people that go on about it being ahead of its time...okay, great. It was ahead of its time. Its time was also a decade ago. Moving to an entirely new OS would require lots of effort on anyone's part who wants to use it. Seriously, what's the point of building an OS based on the Amiga instead of an entirely different OS? What makes people so excited? Because its name is "Amiga"? Okay, I'm going to make an OS in Applesoft BASIC (Hey, if Java can herald an emulated platform....). I'm gonna call it "Elvis". It'll be a hit.
I don't follow the Amiga scene, but this looks like an executive that knows about about 1/10,000 what his programmers do about technology deciding that "Linux is popular, therefore we go with Linux". I mean, he didn't even say "Linux kernel" many times in the press release...just "Linux" and "potential". Over and over. Maybe I'm wronging him. Just as an outsider looking in, I'm not very impressed.
Depends of course if you have some weird hardware, or if you need a dhcp client or ppp for instance. I don't need those, and my initscripts are pretty clean (no maintenance or checking scripts), the kernel too don't have useless things compiled in so no need for scanning hw, my soundboard is initialised by Alsa....
. . . . . . .
may u!sh 2 sm!le at dz!z bad nn.!m!tat!ion
That *is* a cool idea!
What *is* a real time OS? An OS with guaranteed times for operation for scheduled tasks? It seems to me impossible to build such a system...
If we're both thnking of the same David Bowie song (Changes) then I think there's only four "ch's" at the begining.
StylishPants.Org - Home of everything that's interesting, and nothing that's not.
Sounds to me like Amiga wants all the popular publicity they can get. Amiga knows that technical users will be their main market and this is a good way to advertise :)
My linux boots up and goes to X in less than 7 seconds. Actually 7-10 seconds depending on it's mood. Now I dont think Be booting in 7 seconds is such a major improvemnt, given my Celeron 300a (450mhz does this at around the same speed), this is compairing to their Xenon 500 (the system they always quote, with 512 mb ram) -- mine is just 128mb. with lots of services as well. (I doubt they run a web server, msql and mysql, named, time, sshd, proftpd... blah
You fool! Amiga was always God. If IBM didn't make it big, the world would have been a better place. I mean, jeez, the 500 had a speech emulation command in the BASIC! The Amiga machines were way ahead of their time, and I'm glad to see thme comming back. Besides if they do take QNX it's not going to be propritary, QNX is a Unix clone (and a good one at that too).
StylishPants.Org - Home of everything that's interesting, and nothing that's not.
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Employ me! Unix,Linux,crypto/security,Perl,C/C++,distance work. Edinburgh UK.
Xenu loves you!
Another masterful use of the net to market your cause... Nobody would care about "Amiga2000" if they didn't create this ambiguity. Drop some strategic disinformation, drop another morsel of information everyone wants to here... boom you've got buzz.
I think that was pretty well suited for a demo OS, it had interrupt manager, file system, exe loader, small fast sound gfx libs... kinda blurry but it was cool 68k assembly. Yay for Chaos!!
--exa--
Where did you buy your crystal ball? If they are no longer available, would you give me a piece of your absolutely perfect knowledge of vision and give the winning numbers for next lottery?
(I just can't understand how you can be _sure_ about something...)
What are the game and application reviews in magazines like Amiga Format based on, if there are no more recent programs than 10 years old for Amiga? There are not _a lot_ of new programs, but clearly more than zero.
I am one of the millions who would (sigh) love to have an Amiga again...
1 Amiga 500 system. Currently being used to collect dust. 1MB on board memory, still works.
I sure am not going to use the new Amiga. I'm happy enough to see companies adopt Linux and free software, but not by backstabbing another company. They had a deal with QNX (I don't care what lawyers wrote on paper; what matters is what they told QNX), and they broke it. I don't like that.
I believe in free software, but claiming the cause of free software doesn't give you the right to be a jerk.
Thanks a bunch, but I'm gonna stick with Debian for my primary OS, and maybe give the new QNX a spin when it comes out for x86 (non-Amiga) hardware.
I mean, they shouldn't drop a company, but the very, very least they could have done was tell QNX when they first found out.
If Linux needs Amiga for that I am going to switch to MS DOS again. Taking the complete Amiga mess into account ... Amiga : The Phantom but where is the menace ?
Really? Would you care to give us figures for how many units they would have sold without Windows compatibility compared to the numbers they sold with Windows compatibility or was that "didn't help... AT ALL" completely baseless?
That press release is here. :-)
~ radiographite: art by john shepard
If it's based on Linux, then it's *evolutionary* by definition.
I use Linux 100% of the time, so don't suggest I don't like lInux, but if I wanted a revolutionary multitasking OS suited to modern multimedia and realtime apps, there's only one choice: BeOS.
If Amiga want to provide a slick commercial Linux box with a lot of Amiga gloss on top, then more power to them. Just don't tell me it's revolutionary in the way the original Amiga was (truly an OS ahead of it's time).
How can you say you have been waiting for a.. for a.. propriety operating system! You are not one of us!
-- Herbert, Open source is my savior.
I think that Amiga really has the muscle to push linux into the mainstream. I am very happy that not only I will be able to turn my pc into an amiga, but Linux will get even more attention.
Now all we need is a PDA.
Sounds exactly like my old Mac. Best computer ever built. Tons of innovation. Moronic marketers (Not Chiat/Day...I mean the *other* people).
Amiga released linux news, then collas posted his update. Then QNX posted where we stand. Timing is everything :)
Um. Since when do you need extra instructions for real-time signal processing? Mind, I'd love to toss my Pentium and get a copper Altivec G4 machine with FreeBSD too, but I really doubt it's needed. Besides, it'll take years for the G4 to really become understood, for every little bit of performance to be yanked out of it. And the G5 will be out by then. I mean, take a bunch of the 286 demo coders on your project, and don't worry about it.
Collas has had several meetings with Linus Torvalds which convinced him that Linux was the way to go. Collas also hinted that the Transmeta processor might be part of the new Amiga. The QNX announcement was just a temper tantrum by QNX after they were rejected.
Come on. The Amiga was a great computer, but it was almost a decade ago. Who's going to buy it? There's basically nothing an Amiga could do a PC or Mac can't. Who's going to be foolish enough to invest in it, if it needs *proprietary* hardware as to run the old software?
All the *good* Amiga software relied on hardware (gee, coding in assembly, eh), and there's no way to make them work on actual platforms, apart from emulating.
Be realistic. Learn from what the amiga was able to do, and how. There's already enough OS wars.
IMHO, BeOS is certainly the *best* example to compare the Amiga to. Poorly distributed, but great...
My 0.02
-- It's always darker before it goes pitch black.
oh give it up please. most people know how to lighten up (unless you're one of those idiots who complained to mindcraft or whatever)
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You should be an industry analyst. Except I think they're going to Linux for the media hype more than anything. Combine the "Amiga Reborn!" and the "Linux!" waves, and ride a bigger one. And I don't know about $500 boxes. I really think that, though it really hasn't happened yet, (Linux may do some of the work) consumer devices really are going to converge in the *mainstream* with computers. Since "consumer devices" are sexier in the cheapo market than PCs, if the Amiga goes for $500, it'll probably also double as a toaster oven or something. Maybe "Amiga -- the Internet Lunchbox!".
For those interested, Jim Collas has posted another message about the whole ordeal on the bulletin board at http://www.amiga.com/ubb/Forum9/HTML/000001.html. It has a bit (but not much) more explanation on how they came to the big decision.
Low-level OS engineers only make $100K/year?
If you follow QNX at all, or even take the look at the rest of their site, you'd notice that this new and wonderful interface is merely Photon. This isn't anything new, custom designed for the as yet undescribed new Amiga Hardware, but their standard graphical interface. So all QNX appears to have lost was some marketing manhours, and a lot of face for what appears to be a premature press release.
I personally would be more interested in hearing about the hardware that comprises these new machines, first. Many of the tricks which made the old Amiga such a revolutionary design are now commonplace, and I'm curious to see how they justify the new machine. I'm afraid it's just going to appear, then disappear, like the BeBox, or stay vapor, like Apple's CHRP.
I especially found QNX's optimistic goal to start beta testing in Fall interesting.. Beta testing *what*, exactly? Noone would have the hardware, so they can't be testing drivers. And I'm fairly sure their kernel has been tested elsewhere.
Amen
You know, the way Amiga users talk about "efficiency" and "bloatedness" really mean nothing. Much of the supposed "inefficiency" of modern operating systems comes about due to such "inefficient" concepts as memory protection and virtual memory, and yet Amiga people continuously go on and on about how every other platform is inefficient. This opinion is really based on poor understanding of the issues involved in writing a properly abstracted (read portable) operating system. Could someone point out to me ONE "efficiency" improvement they could make to the Linux kernel?
I wish the new Amiga all the best, but from the description above it really doesn't sound all that impressive. I'll wait to see the full technical specifications, before making any final judgements though.
Counter-example: Utterly amazing Windows 3.1 support didn't help OS/2 back in 1993 AT ALL.
EEEP! Thanks for playing, but you are just plain wrong. :)
QNX is not a UNIX clone, it has good posix compliance (Better than BeOS at least) but calling it a unix clone is wrong. It's a real real-time OS, designed from ground up as a real-time (and embedded) os.
You don't want a hourglass showing up on your ABS breaks, do you?
Jón
Admittedly, it looks rather bad to be flip-flopping on core aspects of a product. But this really isn't as negative as some have played it to be. This company wants to build something innovative -- and successful. Ask Apple... the two don't always go together.
They found that their success factor was unacceptably low, and they were forced to make a change. Heck, I'm glad they're carefully looking at these kind of issues. I'm even more happy they've chosen a Linux kernel.
The interesting thing is, if they both follow through on their announcement, you've got even more innovation and competition than before. QNX is going to continue with developing the operating system. Amiga is going to continue with developing their OS and with a Linux kernel.
If you're one to track win-loss comparisons, it seems like a win for the consumer, a win for Gateway, and a lesser win for QNX.
Of course, it isn't ALL roses. If you're porting or developing software, you've got an OS decision to make. And users will have one to make as well. One side to this to keep aware of is on the hardware end... the Linux version is going to take advantage of far more hardware than the QNX version. Might marginalize QNX if you've got the latest monster video card and QNX won't do it.
Not sure if Microkernels have been implemented yet?
NeXTSTEP/OPENSTEP and now MacOS X Server are all based on the Mach microkernel, which has been around for quite some time.
Information about new stuff going on with Mach (Mach 4) is here: Mach 4 Project
Microkernels are very interesting.. you may want to give this stuff a look.
ash
----------------------- NeXT Bigot & Bassoonist
Has anyone figured out who put that curse on the Amiga yet? I had an A-2000 in 1989-1991. One of the best damned computers I ever owned. The marketing was cursed and it seems as though it has not stopped yet.
Setting his threshold to 5, Sparky eliminated most of the trolls on /.
This could be the splinter. You think the differences between distros are bad, imagine this:
Amiga/Linux (it would be best if they left the word Linux out of it all together)
A system based on a Linux kernel. Amiga specific kernel patches, Amiga specific API layer, Amiga specific filesystem layout. Linux will not be helped if they do this. The only winner would be Amiga, essentially stealing the wind from the Linux sail(as far as hardware vendors are concerned).
On the other hand, there seems to be a link to Linus/Transmeta(!!). This indicates that the Amiga plans are endorsed by Linus, which may be a good thing. We don't know anything about Transmeta.
We should wait for a statement from Linus. If Linus does NOT comment on this situation, it becomes obvious that Transmeta is a player in this move.
See http://www.qnx.com/amiga/wherewestand.html
They're going to truck ahead and keep making their OS for the Amiga.
-Stu
CNet's News.com is covering this, with a note about "settop boxes." For more details, see http://www.news.com/ News/Item/0,4,0-38973,00.html?st.ne.lh..ni
I'm waiting for an appropriately priced Altivec platform with an open-source (unix) OS. If the new Amiga doesn't use an Altivec processor, I have no interest.
... digital radio, voice over IP, digital image manipulation, digital filtering, etc.
...
...), and I certainly won't buy one unless I get complete source code and complete information for all the hardware ...
I'm interested in Altivec for its real-time signal processing capabilities
I'm also worried that if/when Apple comes out with an Altivec platform, it won't really be *completely* supported and *complete* information won't be available in order to port Linux and write device drivers. Apple has a history of closed hardware with no available information. I'm expecting Apple to shoot themselves in the other foot despite what they say in their press releases
Maybe the new Amiga will use Altivec. If so, and if it runs Linux, I'll be immensely interested!!! Otherwise, I'll just yawn. I certainly won't buy one unless it comes with an Altivec processor (or two, or three,
Amiga, are you listening???
(No flames please. I have read alot of anti-Stallman flames and I don't think you can come up with anything new.)
--
I suppose that the following points hold even if the mail is a hoax, though it seems to be real.
Among the Amigans addressed, I belive that there will be others with similar suspicions to mine. The Amiga has once been revolutionary, and basically that's why we love it so much. It has made many attempts at a come-back, and haven't reached a desired position. Now Mr. Collas promises that the next generation Amigas will be as revolutionary as their first ancestors.
However, I am skeptical whether making some desktop machines + handheld devices which run Linux and Java is sufficiently revolutionary. In my opinion and thus from a developer's viewpoint, it's difficult to see what the Amiga Operating Environment can accomplish that a plain Linux distribution cannot.
At any rate, I would be definitely pleased to see Amiga to revive, and in good shape. I mean, not like your casual mummy. I will have to attain both the goodies (standards, swift desktop..) and the fancies (the rev. part as we hear it). I think that Amiga has the chance to make it, and free software/open source/whatever-you-call-it community will certainly benefit from it by some contributions from the Amiga (at least some kernel configs are on the way as Collas states)
--exa--
Only some truly sick (long-dead-)Amiga worshipping compu-necrophiliac could come up with the idea that a shipping OS with 10,000 registered developers is "vaporware" while some mythical mystery media AmigaOS of the future is actually a viable product.
I really wish Amiga would start putting its plans into motion. Its always a bad sign when a company says they'll do blah A, then decide Blah B,and then doing absolutly nothing.
:).
I don't see whats wrong with be building a new ultra cool/fast PowerPC system, then porting linux, and writting drivers for its hardware. Then utilizing KDE, GNOME, plain olde Linux/X, or just making there own.
XFree86 4.0 and perhaps ASLA thing (that nifty Linux sound driver) could create a rich multimedia baseline for Linux (3d, sound, video, etc).
However, I think it would be wiser if Amiga went with BeOS. Mostly because amigas have (and probably always will) be desktop multimedia powerhouses.... Be is the perfect OS for that.
However, Linux isn't to far behind. I believe it has a stronger base, better support, and a more powerful (but perhaps a bit to rowdy) community (more so then Be anyway).
When you put a power GUI, and tie it in with Advanced 3d and sound with Linux... You have the PERFECT OS for our next amigas.
I missed the amigas, I was like 8 or so when they were the shit. And I think its time another really phat ass PC to come out and kick some x86 ass
That for maximum performance, they've just decided to scrap Linux and will be moving to MS-DOS.
If you use the traditional definitions, yes, the kernel is the OS.
If you're using Microsoft's DOJ trial definitions, then whatever they say is part of the OS is OS. This difinition is also used by many users and is simply another term for "distribution".
In the beginning (TM), the operating system was the program that controlled and provided access to the computer's resources. I imagine that this is closer to the definition used in the computer science world. Note that by this definition, those handy Unix utilities like ls and vi are applications, not part of the operating system proper.
Geeky modern art T-shirts
Why is that evertime i look at this very interesting OS, that they try to make me hate it? Why is that evertime I try to get closer, they kill something I love? Once again, Be is spreading FUD. I really dont think be is in a possition to spread such FUD. We could coexist, lets all concentrate on getting rid of MS, before starting wars.
I'm going with QNX.
I haven't really been following the Amiga, but here's my reconstruction of what's been happening over the last few days:
+ Gateway buys Amiga, because they think tney might be able to use the classic hardware and software in a set-top box or palmtop or something.
+ Gateway figures out that's not really feasible, and that they're going to have to re-write from scratch.
+ However, writing an entire modern OS is a bunch of work, so Amiga decides to create an application environment called "Amiga Operating Environment". Classic Amiga is dropped and it's software will only be run in emulation. I'll assume they're somewhat smart, and they write AOE to run as a POSIX application, so they can port it to different places without too much trouble.
+ Meanwhile, QNX has a robust OS with a jazzy GUI that's been around a while in various vertical markets. They look at the success of Be, and they realize that there might be a market for a consumer version of QNX. They devote "40 engineers" to Consumer QNX.
+ After sniffing around Be (and probably *BSD), Amiga finds QNX, and realizes that there might be some "synergy" between their goals - A new consumer platform running Consumer QNX with AOE on top. They start talking.
+ Amiga realizes that you can buy a $500 Windows 98 computer, and it's going to be difficult to build a consumer computer with razor-thin margins and have both Amiga/Gateway and QNX make any money. QNX can play hardball in the negotiations because they've a working OS and 40 engineers, whereas Amiga has vapor.
+ Amiga looks at all the Linux hype, sees the word FREE, as in Free Beer Software and Free Beer Device Drivers and Free Beer Programmers. They privately tell QNX to screw off. Since they're building a POSIX application, moving it to Linux is possible, it just more delays.
+ QNX gets pissed, and realizes that Amiga won't have jack/shit for another 12 months, where Consumer QNX will be ready sooner. As an appeal to the Amiga fans, they post a bunch of stuff, including sexy screenshots, about being the platform for AOE.
+ Amiga fires back - They're using Linux, it's more popular and free.
+ QNX announces that they're going ahead and shipping ConsumerQNX anyways. They make an appeal to the Amiga fans out there - "We're the *real* Amiga - and we are shipping a product."
+ A big split occurs in what's left of the Amiga community. Some go with QNX as the next best thing to the real Amiga. Others wait for alphas of AOE running on a Linux kernel. Others stick with the classic hardware because both QNX and Linux/AOE are imposters. Some finally give up and go with BeOS or Linux.
--
Business. Numbers. Money. People. Computer World.
Man, I really need to crush this kernel. :^)
Then again, I shouldn't complain. I very intentionally chose RedHat as my first home Linux distro... because it has all the high level bells and whistles I need right out of the box... which gives me more time to go digging leisurely through the guts of my box in the interim without sacrificing functionality.
If I wanted real efficiency, I would have used [...]. (OS/distro deleted on advice of legal counsel and the fire department)
Does that make sense?
-DrPsycho - Coping with reality since 1975
I've taken to saving my HTML formatted text to an editor running external to my browser. Then, I can preview all I want, and paste my old HTML formatted text back into the text widget.
Otherwise, all my nice italics and boldface tags take a walk... never mind the fact that it eats all my anchors...
-DrPsycho - Coping with reality since 1975
Ok, what's up with this Slashdot bug that strips the formatting when you post from the preview page?!?
As copyright owner of this comment, I authorize everyone to defeat any technological measure which limits access to it.
In other words, I think a large degree of portability is inevitable.
-DrPsycho - Coping with reality since 1975
First I really don't see what's with those bootup time contests since a good os like be or linux can configure itself without rebooting. And don't tell me your switching OSes every 2hours.
And my linux too's booting around the 8-10 seconds.
. . . . . . .
may u!sh 2 sm!le at dz!z bad nn.!m!tat!ion
Slapstick.
BeDope is a JOKE site. J-O-K-E. You know: Funny Shit (TM). Look at the site. 90% of the stories are laughing at Be. Beers don't take themselves quite so seriously as others seem to. Try using Be and you'll see why the Be newsgroups are a haven of goodwill and reason in a sea of fanaticism.*
:^)
*Don't take THAT too seriously either
The Amiga misses your tender touchtype, late hours, and hacking thrills!
...now that it's all grown up...
Amiga deflowered many a Linux guru, and now they are (openly!) omnipotent tool honer emeritus.
R-U-Experianced?
Linux users are _almost_ as fiercely loyal...
Now they code any OS of thier choice. Linux most often. MS most loathed. Amiga most loyal.
Millions of X-Amiga and Mac users have been shafted for the last 15 years by little things like detecting a diskchange operation. Sheesh!
Maybe it will be "new-technology" from MS in Y2K.... Naahhh!
It's no accident that our mutual evangelism of what we know is good, and firmly believe in can be
so tirelesly improved, for all to benefit.
Stay tuned for the news to come, then "Make up your own mind" about the future Amiga.
It's more than a FeeCee turned Linux box.
The "World of AMIGA" show is in London this month, and the Computer99 show November in Cologne....and then the slew of Amiga shows in Toronto, St. Louis, Columbus, and CA next year.
"Amiga will show you hers, if you'll show her your Linux!"
Just type:> "makeout"
JoeT
Joe Torre - X - HardwareEngineer @ Amiga Inc & ZapMedia Amiga, AmigaDE, BeOS, Linuxz, QNX, Rebol, Windoze, ZME: So
Be on Linux or Hurd? WOW! Then Be would run, what....75% slower than it does now? Boot up in 45 seconds instead of 10 seconds like it does now?
Really, I think BeDope might like that as a feature. It sure is funny!