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Mitnick Charges Dropped
Keefesis (the first of many who wrote in with the news) writes "The L.A. District Attorney dropped the case against Mitnick according to this article by MSNBC. Nice birthday present I guess :) " I wonder what this will do the movie Takedown (based on the book) that is currently in post-production, and stars Tom Berenger as John Markoff, and Skeet Ulrich as Kevin Mitnick. No joke. Update: 08/07 01:43 by J : To clarify, he is not out of the woods yet. The federal charges against him have not been dropped.
---"...It's not the jungle and not everyone does every crime he wants..."
I repeat.."If it's for the gov't it's NOT a crime"
I'll also add that you'll get away with it if your rich and connected, but you already know that.
---"Or shall I be authorized to kill you, because death penalty exists (in the US) ?"
If you're a cop or in the military, you already have gov't authorization. In fact you have the obligation to kill me if you are ordered to do so for whatever reason they can dream up. Wear your vest.
He waived his right to a speedy trial so that's his own fault.
-matt
Actually i thought that was mitnick, maybe i'm wrong, i never was an avid follower of the mitnick fiasco.
-matt
First, there's less evidence against Mumia than against Kevin. It was right out in the open, yes. And everyone who saw it had dramatically different stories, from what people were wearing to how many people were on the scene to where they were standing. The people who testified that it _was_ mumia didn't originally have him as the shooter in their dispositions, then had him shooting from the wrong direction, all sorts of oddities. But not all that odd considering the witnesses were being threatened with drug and prostitution charges. This obviously doesn't mean Mumia _didn't_ do it. But just about everyone who looks into the whole story will concede that there's a reasonable doubt.
The point of the Mumia supporters, however, is that he didn't get a real trial. On the miscarage of justice scale, Kevin's trial pales in comparison to Mumia's. He chose to represent himself, and was then thrown in detention and not allowed to appear. I mean, really, look into the trial, even if only for entertainment's sake. It's honestly worth your time.
But most notably, Mumia hasn't played the "poor me" card. He's said very little about his own case, instead chosing to comment on systematic and institutional issues. I (and most people, I think) expect someone who's innocent to go around constantly wailing their head off about how they're innocent, etc. If they didn't engage in such actions, they're probably guilty and just trying to divert attention from the issue at hand. Thus I was pretty anti-Mumia at the start. He's constantly said "look, I gave my testimony, and nothing has changed... onto the balkan conflict, etc."
Which brings us to perhaps the most poignant difference between Kevin and Mumia. Mumia is a really bright guy -- well read and a great speaker. He's made a lot of people stop and think about prisons and the justice system -- Kevin didn't do this, and Goldstein was only able to do so on a superficial level by holding up a neon characture of Kevin. And that particular message was poorly constructed and delivered to a small community.
But enough babble. Please, read _Live from Death Row_ or something. Available at your local public library. Like I said, worth the effort.
-- r . m o s q u i t o --
"Fair enough. Then, please give me a better example of propangada today, based on half-truths, lie by omission, and media repetition of embellished statements."
Rush?
"In that case, leave alone property (computers) belonging to companies which implicitly say they have signed (by suing Kevin Mitnick, in accordance to the rules edicted in the contract)."
That just proves my point. The contract is between the gov't and the COMPANY. The gov't acting as an agent for the company, not society at large. Another good example of this is pending food labeling laws. Monsanto does not want genetically modified foods labeled as such. And that's the way it will be. Public health be damned.
"You cannot set your own laws on the property belonging to others that say they want to be ruled by the existing law."
No, but I can for MY property. Nobody has a right to violate that. But, as long as might makes right, my property is gov't property.
Bullshit
he is a repeat offender.
now, "Signal 11", what cracks did he fall through?
what political movement does he represent?
What IDEALS does he uphold in defiance of the USG..
Oh yeah, the script kiddie code...
oh and what other thing, since you are so smart and knowledgeable about the case, please do tell us WHICH rights of his were violated?...
Grrr. my nick is "Forward the Light Brigade"...
Go home and hide in a corner. i want the government to control and monitor everyone's lives, and the sooner the better. Time and Time again people have demonstrated to me that they are no longer responsible for themselves or their actions. Give a man a gun? He shoots his coworkers. Give a college student alcohol, he gets drunk and starts fights. Give the prez some poot and he makes a global jackass of himself. Besides if it happens fast enough mabey the average person will wake up and finally help try to stop it.
No. The contract is between the society at large and the government. I'm just pointing out, that even if you want to picture yourself as a outlaw, not-having-signed-the-social-contract, the reason for sending you is jail is that the companies do observe the social contract and expect it to be enforced.
No, but I can for MY property. Nobody has a right to violate that. But, as long as might makes right, my property is gov't property.
For your property you can largely do whatever you please in the US. You can smash your computer and tear it in small pieces. The goverment doesn't care, you're free. But as soon as you crack systems belonging to others, you go to jail.
Well you want facts so here what I've found
[...]
In 1987 and 1988, Kevin and a friend, Lenny DiCicco, fought a pitched electronic battle against scientists at Digital Equipment's Palo Alto research laboratory. Mitnick had become obsessed with obtaining a copy of Digital's VMS minicomputer operating system, and was trying to do so by gaining entry to the company's corporate computer network, known as Easynet. The computers at Digital's Palo Alto laboratory looked easiest, so every night with remarkable persistence Mitnick and DiCicco would launch their modem attacks from a small Calabasas, California company where DiCicco had a computer support job.
[...]
It was the fifth time that Mitnick had been apprehended for a computer crime, and the case attracted nationwide attention because, in an unusual plea bargain, he agreed to one year in prison and six months in a counseling program for his computer "addiction." It was a strange defense tactic, but a federal judge, after initially balking, bought the idea that there was some sort of psychological parallel between the obsession Mitnick had for breaking in to computer systems and an addict's craving for drugs. After he finished his jail time and his halfway-house counseling sentence for the 1989 Digital Equipment conviction Mitnick moved to Las VegasSo re-read the initial post, which was actually propaganda. Kevin Mitnick has started cracking computers and telephone systems 20 years ago. And he has done so with a astonishing repetition and stuborn obstination. Obsession is not a too strong word. Saying "Kevin Mitnick was an ordinary guy who was curious" and that the evil goverment decided to screw him without reason, is propaganda. Why? Because it only tells half of the truth and because it is repeated everywhere in the FreeKevin, and crackers sites.
"If you don't want to get in trouble, stop breaking the fucking law. ...Worry about actual problems with the US, like cryptography and vague bills attempting to prohibit reverse engineering,..."
So, when cryptography and reverse engineering are prohibited, You're going to stop using it???
proof?
he waived his right to a speedy trial after having been convicted of this crime before...
he did so so his lawyers could have more time to review the evidence... and then he pled GUILTY...
your organization was able to rais $3k for his defense... 20c / reader... nice job, no wonder he could only afford the court-appointed lawyers...
Grrr. my nick is "Forward the Light Brigade"...
It's great when people respond to my trolls. Oh, shit, sorry you should have prepared for that. bahahahahaha. I mean really, how stupid are you? If my post were more subtle I could understand how someone could fall for it, but oh well.
"could haves" don't cut it. What was the actual value of the damage as reported to the share holders and IRS as required by law? You don't know, you say? The amount reported to shareholders and IRS was $0.0. Zero. That is, it was never reported. None of the companies who calim in court that they lost millions due to Mitnick have ever filed the loss with the IRS, nor reported it to their shareholders. If there was a loss and it was not reported, then the companies are breaking several laws. If there was no loss, but they are lying on request of the FBI, then a travesty of justice has occured.
Sure. So I guess Solaris source code came preinstalled on his hard disk then, along with other software from Motorola, and with passwords for dozens of computers of Sun Microsystems, Novell, Motorola, Fujitsu. Sure. And he just broke into Shimomura by mistake, sure, everyone believes this one. Check his feats here All in all, Kevin Mitnick is a petty thief who has been set up as an example by an incompetent group of corporations and beaurocracies as some sort of super-hacker-terrorist who must be shut away.
Yes. But he is also an associal nerd that cracked for more than 15 years, was arrested more than 5 times, spent one year in jail, and commited further offense repeatidly. The truth is that the justice doesn't know what to do with him: he can't learn his lesson, is a real threat to the society (the moment he decides to do harm, real harm will be done).
what civil liberties were violated?
Grrr. my nick is "Forward the Light Brigade"...
"But police, judges, lawyers, scientists, politicians, etc., are more important in the grand scheme of things than Joe Average"
Really? Is that why you wake up in the morning "standing for the queen"?
_You_ gave _your_ govt that right. Noone at Serbia gave your any govt right for intervention and intrusion into their domestic affairs.
_Your_ govt used military power without UNO resolution.
Search USA Today Archives and you'll (probably, if it's not censored out) find a report about B.C. announcing a 'cracker war' against Yugoslavia.
Again, if you're US govt 'buddy', you can crack, kill, whatever. Otherwise, you will be caught and punished.
And K.M. is not an idiot, in no way. Idiots are sysadmins of companies he cracked. They are damn lamers who don't deserve the right to be called even computer literate.
Except those of them who now raise their voices in protection of K.M. Because he is better than they and the only thing that can save them from eternal lamery is to ask K.M. to _teach_ them. Ditto security officers.
Damn this guy spent $100 to screw them up on millions! I always thought treasures _must_ be protected better!
KuroiNeko
For breaking the law. You can annoy, and get ego trips as nastily as you want, as long as you are not breaking the law. He also cost the society $200000 for try to figyre out what he did.
They let convicted rapists go after 1 year. Some murderers can leave jail after 3-4 years if they show good behaviour (in the US)
The mean for murders is 20 years and 10 years for rape, not counting death penalty. Rapists and murderers are going out after 1 or 3-4 years are the exception (and are statistically rich, white, and their victims poor, from ethnic minorities). The law gives you what sentence is written in the book law. If you don't agree with this, then stay away from others' computers. Otherwise, you too can spent 5 years in jail. No matter, how good you thing you are for the society, the society didn't ask you for it, and even forbidden for you to do that, so go fuck yourself elsewhere.
okay what civil liberties were violated?
he has no right to bail (esp as a convicted felon)
he has chosen to delay his trial, and then chosen to plead guilty...
Grrr. my nick is "Forward the Light Brigade"...
---"*we* gave the US government this power."---
That's why, that in a war, there are no innocents. That makes us all guilty of whatever crime our gov't commits against another soveirgn(sp). I say the authority of gov't ends when it touches my face. I also say that many "crimes" are NOT defined by "society". They are defined by a company. The gov't is acting as agent for the company. I did not choose to surrender some of my rights. They were taken by a man with a gun. I am leaving... to one of those third world countries, where I can afford to buy my own cop.(Wow, cool, my very own terminator!)
..... please don't be stupid in public
The side of justice.
Oooops my bad next time I'll mention the word federal so you will have something relevant to say.
Did I mention federal? No I didn't I could've been talking about the Brit who collapsed the banking system over there for all you know. Next time think twice before making an ass of yourself.
Damn my bad again... Anonymous Coward says it all.
final words
Want Root?
It doesnt really matter, his stupid ass evidently gotten caught therefore he gets whats comming. How many of you are having protests and causing this much fuss over people like Larry Hoover and various others who are unlawfully locked up. So my final words are get over it and get on with your life maybe nextime Mr. Mitnick will have enough sense not to get caught.
it was bernie s (or something like taht that was beaten) not mitnick
Kevin's spent more time in jail than OJ, who committed a worse crime. Kevin's served his time and deserves a chance again at life on the outside.
I think the whole point about the Kevin Mitnick protests is the crappy way the government has treated him while keeping him locked up. The main thing that sticks out in my mind is the repeated refusal of the government to grant him meaningful access to the evidence to be used against him, as well as the denial of access to even the most simple technology because of some overblown fear that he might use it in some magical way to cause trouble. If you take the time to look into some of the government's abuses of power, you might be as pissed as many of Kevin's sympathizers.
-- $SIGNATURE
Yes, it was what gets called "social engineering." Of course, the term "social engineering" is one of those euphemisms, like "ethnic cleansing," that obscure what is really going on.
"Social engineering" could also be called:
Fraud,
Lying,
Deception.
Taking advantage of the good nature of other people is not by any stretch of the imagination a form of 'engineering.' People like Mr. Mitnick are just plain vanilla criminals who've adopted some sort of an aura about them because of the circles they run in.
But when did Sun start this program? Did they start it back before 1995?
Mitnick didn't just break computer systems. He preyed on idiots to give him passwords, copied proprietary software and stored it on unwitting ISP servers, and also did an old fashioned breaking and entering to steal telephone specs. About embezzlers, well which embezzlers have gotten a "slap on the wrist"? And, which embezzlers have done a B & E? Are you telling me that using someone elses computer to store illegally obtained software isn't asshole behavior? I certain wouldn't want people to put software on my computer I didn't know about, but maybe i'm not you. Mitnik is an asshole, read his damn story. The fact that he is an asshole is separate from the trial.
"No. The contract is between the society at large and the government."
I guess this will have to end here. As far as I'm concerned, you are very wrong. I am bound by no contract that I didn't personally affirm with MY signature. If I go to jail it should be because I did something wrong, not because a company wants its contract with the gov't enforced. That's the kind of crap that Cheveron does in Nigeria, or IIT in Chile(remember Allende?), or Monsanto, Ford, Exxon, etc. in the u.s. If this contract was with society at large, there would have been no Teapot Dome scandal, the Ford Pinto would have been built with a safer gas tank, the DC-10 would not have seen the light of day. We would not have invaded Iraq, Grenada, Panama, Vietnam(we were the bad guys) If the gov't acted as society's agent instead of for the liquor industry, the "legal" drug companies, cops(the kind that love civil forfeiture for the income it brings), and other "mafia" types, there would be no drug prohibition and the associated crimes.
If Kevin did what the companies and the gov't said he did(pleading guilty doesn't always you're guilty), then yes he should pay restitution to the victim, and that should be the end of it. I'm not claiming the right to destroy other peoples property. That's only because I DO respect the property of others. However, if said property "touches my face" then all bets are off.
Hell, if they say you're guilty then you must be. I'm not quite sure why the even bothered with keeping him in jail for 4 years without a trial when it has been stated that he was guilty.
He pleaded guilty. There was huge compelling evidence that he was guilty of cracking computers and stealing information (for instance: files on his computer). He was just like a murder pleading guilty, when corpse of murdered people, and the weapons with his fingerprints, where found in his house. Think about it. He also conmitted further offense numerous times.
People are guaranteed a right to a speedy trial.
He waived this right. Now maybe he was forced to do so, because he couldn't afford an army of lawyers, and as to spent some time for the defense, but it is exactly the same problem than what happened to the innocent sentenced death penalty: they were poor and couldn't afford a good lawyer (or were defended by just out-of-school lawyer).
The fact remains that nobody should be able to say you are guilty of a crime and then wait 4 years (much less a few months) to decide your guilt based on actual facts.
I'm just pointing out that this happens all the time. It looks like you just discovered problems in the American Justice. I say there is no point in focusing only on "Kevin Mitnick" case, which is just another random criminal among others.
Not everyone is saying that "Kevin Mitnick is the most scandalous case of the all American justice". They are only saying that it was wrong.
You're right. But, I'm just saying that it is common place, and all these "Free Kevin" efforts are misleaded, and obviously should be better be used to cases that are 2 orders of magnitudes more scandalous. I'm talking about innocents, waiting in the death row, for starters.
This is something that has bothered me for some time. Why do slashdotters take it upon themselves to tell the media what terms they should use to define hackers? You guys have absolutly no business saying how to define someone else. Kevin Mitnick is a hacker, you people, have no right to insist he be called anything else.
You're right that Slashdot has a hell of a lot of influence. Largely due to the sheer volume of traffic and emails Slashdot people generate. What's so troubling is that reading these posts, almost every single one is horribly inaccurate. GET YOUR FACTS STRAIGT GUYS!! At least read the damn article.. But if your not going to read about the rest of the case, don't assume you know what it's about... because most people here, have simply regurgitated the hype, myths, rumors and flat out lies about Kevin. I don't have the time to go into correcting them, but you could even read posts from previous Mitnick subjects on Slashdot, for better info (also http://www.freekevin.com). Know the facts before you demonize someone you don't know as a "Cracker".
Also, mind you Kevin hasn't been convicted.. so, how is it that someone is a hacker, and then when they get arrested, all of a sudden he's a cracker? Never mind the choice of word, just going by what it's said to mean. It's ridiculous. There are hackers, and there are criminals. Some hackers are also criminals.. That does not negate that they are still hackers. One should look at what the alleged crime IS before attacking someone.
Doug Thomas has written many articles on the Mitnick case for Wired.. In each article he calls Kevin a hacker, and in each one the editor changes it to read "Celebrity Cracker" - Doug Thomas bitterly opposed them changing his wording, Wired persisted, Doug Thomas even stopped writing for Wired in protest, still Wired has insisted on using that phrase. In fact they thought it was kind of funny, in this article (http://www.wired.com/news/ news/politics/story/20053.html) they sneaked that phrase in as quoting me saying "just don't call him a 'celebrity cracker'" (and for the record, I didn't growl). I spoke to various Wired reporters and editors, and you know what they told me? They were forced to do that because they get bombarded with emails from "angry slashdot users" whenever they call him a hacker. YOU PEOPLE HAVE NO RIGHT TO PASS JUDGEMENT LIKE THIS. I know many of you consider yourselves hackers, if you feel you share the hacker spirit, more power to you.. Just learn to be more tolerant and respectful towards your "underground" counterparts. It is incredibly arrogant and pretentious to do otherwise. For those of you who insist on rejecting other groups of people in the hacker community, stop worrying about how they're labeled, if you're not one of them, it's none of your goddamn business! The worst part of using the word "cracker" is that it's totally subjective who and what a cracker is... so if ANYONE is going to decide to use it, it sure as hell shouldn't be slashdot.
Language evolves as is needed, and as the public accepts it. This use of the word 'cracker' has been rejected by most people and media outlets. It serves no legitimate purpose for anyone other than ignorant, narrow-minded, egotistical, jerks - who are such snobs that they can't stand to be associated with anyone who dares to act and think differently, but are too damn conceited to call themselves something else, so they insist on calling other people names.
As far as I'm concerned it is libelous.
">Canada and the U.S. have two of the finest justice systems in the world. In some places, you are shot on site if you are even SUSPECTED >of committing a crime, never mind a "fair" trial and due process.
Really, Here in the states they merely steal your property. It's more profitable than torturing prisoners. Our gov't is simply more pragmatic about these things. We don't arrest dissenters. we just take away their megaphones. If a dissenter attracts a significant following, then he's in trouble.(re: Martin Luther King, Malcom X) In the gov't's eyes, they presented a clear danger and were "dealt with" accordingly. But kids screaming in the streets, let 'em go nuts, as long as they don't break anything.
If Mitnick can "easily look for bugs and security holes in the code" why the hell can't someone at the company do this just as easily and fix the fucking bugs? Your logic does not follow.
(esp as a convicted felon) he's not convicted of anything. it is a violation of his constitutional right to a fair and speedy trial.
The law should not protect people this stupid. I think that if we are going to expend precious gov't resources to protect people, they MUST show that they have bothered to take some precautions on their own. If they won't even try to protect themselves, why should the public? Is reminding your workers to never give out sensative info without authorization really such a feat? Is hiring workers who have that much common sense turning into such an impossible feat? Then why do people seem to think the stupid deserve easy lives?
Still, if memory serves me, he was the one who kept sabotaging his own defense, so one can't feel TOO anguished about it.
Hmmm... charges dropped, major attacks against machines at above.net. Coincidence? Must be... ;)
--
rickf@transpect.SPAM-B-GONE.net (remove the SPAM-B-GONE bit)
"People will pay big bucks for the luxury of ignorance."
Nope, hacker == (super) programmer, which is skilled in many programming languages, most noone else would dear programming in. cracker == criminal.
don't post when you dont know anything about what you're going to talk about.. dumbass...
Kevin Mitnick is a jackass, he did something wrong and compromised a system, thus he should suffer the consequences. Now their making a movie out of this ? You definately know the world is being FedEx'd to hell when retarded sh*t like this happens .. now there's going to be a whole other boatload of conforming idiots worshipping people like him. "Hack The Planet" -3133t hax0r
It could have been many people dealt with in this matter. None of us are pure. Kevin was unlucky enough to be the first in line. Yes, he did some stupid thing, and yes, he's a criminal - both in the eyes of the law and the general concensus. But in no way does any human deserve to be taken outside the rules decided upon by our lawmakers. This just shows us that real justice has a long way to come before we can all feel safe.
What I hope is that they call it "time-served" and let his go, êbut I may just be wishful thinking. This battle isn't over.
Even if he was allowed to go free, what then? Will be fight the government for unlawful prosecution and the removal of his constitutional rights? I suspect he's a tired, tired man, but this kind of action still needs to be taken so that the next case of this sort does not turn into anoth witch-hunt.
TheGeek http://www.geekrights.org
TheGeek
http://www.geekrights.org
Kill the monkey
Interesting story. Methinks there's probably another side to it though, since it sounds a little too hard to believe.
So, if I understand correctly, he was sent to prison for a couple of years while waiting to be sentenced, and when he passed enough time waiting in prison for the crimes he commited, they dropped the charges?
So, he served a prison sentence without being judged by trial?
Anyways, I guess this is a good thing for him, I just don't really understand the U.S.'s notion of "justice"..
Read something for a change. Mitnick pleaded guilty to the federal charges. He is convicted. He is now awaiting sentencing. It's 5 1/2" years he has now spent in jail.
Actually I read the one at 2600. Mitnick has been in and out of jail throughout his life, given numerous chances make a living in a legal way.
It looks like Kevin Mitnik has found a new employer: the NSA.
Well, he did still break the law. Fortunately for him, the clueless CA prosecutors charged him with wrong crime.
. . . besides, my point was that Kevin Mitnick is an asshole. I don't really know if he should be in jail or not longer than he has, but I still don't think I'd want to be his friend, because he's an asshole. Being an asshole doesn't mean he belongs in jail.
As more and more people get on-line, the more outrageous thier negative reaction to the overzealous prosecution of Mitnick will be. The propagation of the facts as the Mitnick case proceeds makes the case a potential hot potato to the prosecutors because it will be shown how little damage Mitnick actually did. It seems prosecutors relied on the Judges' ignorance and using innuendo than the facts. hopefully with a more people on-line this sort of overzealous prosecution will be exposed and perhaps some sort of political retribution against prosecutors will occur.
Au contraire it is perfectly on topic. First, what would you think of someone who would try to make people recognize that, say, "Hitler ordered to kill a cat once, and this is an unbearable scandal, and there should be a specific monument for the cat". That he is insane. Hitler did much worse, and there is very little point in bringing this cat issue. Since objectively, the justification in bringing this point is found in the mind of person bringing it.
Similarily there is no point in little point in picturing Kevin Mitnick's case as an absolute and total abomination of the American justice. Hell, it kills *innocents*, and Kevin Mitnick was just treated in average or a little worse than average criminals.
The answer is found in your title "It could happen to you...". You identify yourself with Kevin Mitnick (probably because you have sympathy for crackers, maybe because you tried crack once or more), but not with the innocents killed (maybe because you don't know about them, but you can't be blamed for it, since of course the whole system does it best to hide them - inconsiously, no one wants to admit that it was a part of a organised system that commited murder [judge, attorneys, jury, ...]).
My post wasn't at all offtopic, when I pointed out, that, in your attempt to picture Kevin Mitnick as basically a good guy a bit too curious, you conveniently left out many previous facts, including the one that Kevin Mitnick was already judged and sentenced one year in 1989, and promised not to crack again.
Pointing out innocents killed by justice, was just a way to point out your inconscious hypocrisy: you don't care about Kevin Mitnick because his rights were not respected. No. You care about him because you identify with him, because you are part of people that believe or think themselves as the "computer underground", and you were afraid thay *your* rights (or your friends') might not be respected. And you are not alone. All the crackers sites do. They shout "free Kevin" because a) they think that cracking is fun b) they don't want to go in jail themselves ; like him. After if Mitnick is freed, they would too.
But, sorry, but you bet on the wrong horse. First, Kevin Mitnick is largely in the dark side of force, not because he cracks for money, but because he cracks obsessively for the sake of cracking, in a way which confines to total stupidity and is socially unacceptable. Second, cracking is no longer fun, sorry ; find another hobby. No amount of bullshit rationalisations ("I just want to help to secure") would help. Crackers crack because they find that fun. As soon as they would find this somehow boring, their desire to help people would magically vanish.
I'm frankly strongly disappointed by slashdot kiddies in general. I don't care if they find fun to crack systems. But then they should not advocate cracking, or throw lies by omissions, or line up idiotic argument after idiotic argument HERE. Cracking is just wrong. You might find it fun, all right, play with computers belonging to others, but shut up because you're wrong, and stay in crackers' site if you need to speak.
This is hilarius!
Let's see... the claim of theft was a lie therefore nothing was stolen therefore it's petty theft! Gawd, you dolt!
Ok, I'll recind one thing... he's not a script kiddy.... he's an ankle biter.
I forgot that script kiddies couldnt run GCC let alone ftp something manually by forming the packets by hand. But the claim that he did something special or super "high-tech" is completely bogus... every wanna-be could do what he did easily, everyone knows that the Uber-hackers are never known and never get cought (The idiot was cracking from his apartment most of the time!)
So yes, I recinded the script kiddy remark...
I didnt mean to offend all the script kiddies out there by affiliating them with a petty thief and ankle biter.
Why dont you ACTUALLY read what happened instead of eating your news bites....
Do not look at laser with remaining good eye.
The LA district dropped the case, not the government.
First off if you would have read me post you would have noticed i type "as reported by the compaines them selves." Never did I actually agree with the damages being that high considering that none of the source code he stole is currently used to day, besides the source code which sun is now giving away.
Er, fine. But you used the million dollar figure as evidence that he wasn't a petty criminal. So, either he did that much damage and is (a little) dangerous, or he didn't and he's a script kiddie.
I actually haven't heard anything on CNN about Kevin because I don't think they put anything on about him just like the rest of the Main stream media.
1: Relatively few people in the world give a shit about Kevin, so CNN has little reason to run round the clock coverage (ratings, you know).
2: They *have* run stories every now and then about him; I remember seeing his face on TV fairly recently (besides on ZDTV).
I did however read takedown (horribly written.) And Online with Kevin Mitnick as well as hnn, 2600 and the free kevin page.
Good for you.
I don't know if I belive that shit about him just getting everything of Usenet or their would be a hell of alot more damage done by script kiddes that have gotten passwords of usenet.
First, this happened several years ago, before the script kiddies outnumbered the rest of us, and back when a lot of people were lax in securing their systems. Things are better now, but you can still find quite a bit of info in the Usenet that can be used for evil.
Second, script kiddies can do a lot of damage. Maybe we shoul have a ranking system: most SK's are completely worthless, but some are 1337 enough to do some damage if they get in. Depending on how you look at it, Kevin may have been in the latter group. (Hint: it helps his case if he isn't.)
I think that you sould at least admit your wrong by saying that Kevin was a petty theft.
Except he *was* a petty thief. Maybe he was just a particularly skilled petty thief.
I'm not sure if password harvesting makes Kevin a Script kiddes.
It does, or else we'd have to come up with a new term. (How about luser?)
I really don't beleive that Saumuri was the one that stole the source code and the accidently left a open ftp port on his box.
Why not? Do you have any evidence that he didn't?
I really don't consider myself a toll.
You're right, you aren't a troll. Keep trying though, you're almost there...
but I really don't care about your petty name calling.
So you said he was speaking out of his ass. OK...
Unfortunately, I don't have any links either. I used to know where to find the info that would prove you wrong, but the little wisp of concern I had for Kevin has long since been crushed under the feet of the cults that have sprung up to support him. I would sugest you use the vast power of the Internet and look for the facts yourself; try sites/people that are critical of him first, they're often at least half right. To be honest I wouldn't believe kevinmitnick.com if they told me the sky was blue: even if they are right, they have too much personal interest in the case to be trusted.
Finally, I would like to point out the more pathetic he looks, the more of a brain-damaged script kiddie people believe he is, the more it hurts the case against him. I could see throwing a cyber-terrorist (or whatever they call them now) in prison, but a a little weenie puling passwords of the Usenet? I'd let him go now. You guys (his loyal supporters) are probably doing more damage to his case by making him look like Gods-gift-to-warez than he ever did with his actual crimes.
I had a friend who dated this one hot chick years back. Her father had tons of businesses. He went to sleep over her house one night for obvious reasons. boom boom in come the feds and arrest everyone. Turns out her father was drug kingpin. My friend who had absolutely nothing to do with anything and hadn't a clue of the fathers business goes to court.
D.A.: If you turn rat you'll walk
Friend: I have nothing to do with it.
D.A.: Suffer
Friend? Sentenced to 15-Life served 8 years from the age of 18-26 and is now on parole. For the sake of some dipshit D.A. trying to make a name for himself. Surveillance shows my friend had nothing to do with crap.
Trial time: Surveillance tapes... Disappeared in the system. In order to try to catch a quote bigger fish my friends life was screwed up. Fuck the justice system in the U.S. its a distorted joke.
Mitnick case was a media joke to begin with. He was plain and simply used as a scapegoat and in return they created an overflow of scriptkiddies who used his name to hack anything and everything.
Want Root?
I'm submitting this in response to several comments posted to this thread, and elsewhere under this article...
There have been a number of comments about how Mitnick is a criminal, how he deserves what he got, how his rights weren't violated. There have even been a few posts to the effect of "love it or leave it" politics. Our government is great, and how dare you.. blah blah blah.
My response to all of you will be the same: Get the facts. The reason these people continue to believe the lies despite ready access to the truth is because they are afraid of the responsibility that knowing the truth bestows on people. The moral responsibility to DO something. When you know what's really going on, when you have all the facts laid out in front of you and can see for yourself what these gross injustices will do to our country, you have the responsibility to say something, to get other people to listen, and to take action. Not a responsibility many people want to take on.
Ever wondered why nobody believes somebody when they say they were raped? "They must be lying - so and so could never have done that!" The parents search the kids house for drugs, submit them to psychological counseling, etc. Why they would make up something like that is beyond me - and it's fairly easy to see when somebody is going through emotional trama. The reason people ignore the obvious is because they don't want to believe that it could happen to anyone... or themselves. So they ignore the truth, they may even ignore the victim, because they don't want to accept the responsibility for making sure it doesn't happen to anybody else. And you know what - for their apathy, these crimes continue.
You're welcome to ignore the truth. Online, nobody knows where you've been, or what you've read. Your secret is safe with your computer. But when you come out and post publically, in places like Slashdot, it's expected that you've done your homework. We have a special account reserved for people who haven't - Anonymous Coward. Please use it, so we can save ourselves the trouble of skipping over your posts.
--
*I'll rattle off a few ./'ers.*
That was a stupid thing to say. Perhaps you do smoke crack. Don't threaten me/us.
BZW I live in Switzerland come and get me.
No wonder your parents are dead. They probably killed themselves when they found out what a dickhead little shit for a kid they had.
Kevin was not a script kiddie. And since the damages he casued to software companys was over 1 million (as reported by the compaines them selves.) And since any thing over 500 dollars is Grand theft he wasn't a petty theft either.
Kevin had/s skills, some of the hacks he did on compaines the companies and goverment still don't know how he did. Why don't you research a bit more before you go flapping your mouth any making your self look like a moron.
However I do think that Kevin should be punished for his crimes. I don't think that the damages where over 1 million. I beleive that he should just be sentenced to time served and be put on probation for quite a long time. But that is not for me or any one else to decide it is for a court of law to chose. That is the way the American Justice system works and if you don't like it move to another country.
This is what those terms meant where I live (Iceland), when I heard them first (in the BBS days) so, I'm not saying my understanding of them is the one universally true one and everybody else is an ignorant fuck. Sadly, some people are saying exactly that about their definitions.
I first heard "legit" programmers calling themselves hackers when I started using the Internet around '93, which put me in touch with more Americans. After that, I understood hacking to be a certain style of programming frowned upon by professors and manager but loved by competent programmers who don't need no steenking Venn diagrams.
--
Fuck the system? Nah, you might catch something.
Have you ever been to T50.com? Go after those assholes and fry them too. Whats the difference? Give it a break. People get away with murder nowadays hint freaking hint OJ. So you mean to tell me you would rather have an OJ walking around then a Kevin? Give me a break. I know the story told from all sides. It seems you might have read good old tamagotchi b0y's version a bit more than most people have. Remember only certain people know what truly happened. Everything else is distorted by media wh0res. Do you really know what happened? Do you honestly know he was storing this info off hand or did you happen to read it at a hacker-biased news forum?
I'd definitely love a laugh today, so please do reply.
Want Root?
Come on, I could swear better than that with my tongue tied behind my back. Why are you so pissed anyway, did some jock or burnout steal your lunch money at school?
Bull@#$% If i ask fo your phone number and you give it to me, that is not lying, You had better get use to it.
Kevin said no to this. If you believe that the big nasty government twisted his arm to do this, you must be funny in the head. Forcing the trial forward would have reached a conviction faster.
And yes, I doubt that Mitnik will get off without a guilty plea or guilty verdict. "Wrong place at the wrong time"??? Yeah. Same for Lee Harvey Oswald: He just happened to be behind the gun that shot JFK. (Please no JFK conspiracy theory stuff, it was just an example)
Mitnick broke the law. Plain and simple. He is no political prisoner. That implies that he is imprisoned for his political beliefs. I suppose if he wants to he can say that his political beliefs say it is legal to break into computer/phone systems, or even the "Freedman's Defense": "I do not recognize the authority of the US Federal Gov't." But short of either of these, a political prisoner he is not.
The cracker community tends to react zealously when any one of their fellow crackers gets caught. They try to come up with valid legal grounds on why they should be let go. Please. Grow up. This is the real world where you (should) get punished if you commit a crime.
Finally, Script Kiddie, Yes. Kevin's knowledge of computers was not that much above the common every day script kiddie. If it was, why would he not use the knowledge to make even more money than he was. I know plenty of people who make $70k-$90k right out of college with CS degrees. How come Kevin didn't just do that? Or maybe he wasn't able to.
Script Kiddies go home.
One of the things that really get me is the fact that there is huge support for Kevin, (Posters, bumper stickers, 2600, etc....) yet from all reports noone is willing to give any money to his defense fund. I hear that "How dare you say he should be imprisioned", well he plead guilty didnt he? if he's not guilty then why did he do this? Possibly because there's alot of lip-flapping but noone is actually doing anything, the money well ran dry because the government can out-spend anyone... No ALL OF YOU DIDNT DO ANYTHING TO HELP KEVIN! now this will upset many of you, and the very very few that did help I nod at you, the few that wrote a letter and maybe an email, I'm glad you feel better, and those of us that just discuss it to death, again shame on us.
Why wasnt a demonstration planned on the capitol steps? there has been many demonstrations in washington, a million man march..... why no million hacker march? because noone would have came... because nobody cares, noone wants to "inconvience" themselves for anyone else..
I have hear the "I cant afford to go","I cant get the time off from work","my mom wont let me go" excuses from many for different things... (you'll go to a Linux-con in a heartbeat though!)
(NOTE: the lame demonstration in front of the movie company was just a publicity stunt... Linux users have better turn out for install-fests)
It's the truth, it's the american way....
get used to it...
or even better... CHANGE IT!
kevin Mitnick was railroaded, but we allow the railroad to exist.
(Ya know, back in the 60's the youth of america would risk being MURDERED by our government to stand up for what they believe in --Ohio state comes to mind-- today... we wont get up from out playstations or risk our doritos for anything or anyone shame on you! )
Do not look at laser with remaining good eye.
Instead of freeing Kevin, how about we free *all* political prisoners, him included. Free Kevin can wait if the time is used to Free Everybody.
An excellent point. I would counter though by saying that you should "pick things big enough to matter, and small enough to win."
It's a noble goal, but I'm abit more practical - I can't stop world hunger by myself, but maybe I can get enough people together to get Mitnick sprung from jail. And that would be a small, but significant victory. Situational morality, I guess.
--
"try learning about the social contract"
I didn't sign your "social contract"
Because it is impossible. For instance the Space Shuttle was once stopped for lauching, programs were seriously revised and 10 bugs where found. Something like 5 bugs are estimated to be remaining (of course it is an "estimate", based on some statistical model).
And even to get that high level of reliability you need to spend much more money on development (which companies might have done, once the discovered Mitnick had the source, but I doubt it).
Your logic does not follow.
It does. Since every system has bugs, not publishing source code is an actual way to enhance, with all other things with being equal.
Note that this doesn't make open source software less secure, because all things aren't equal in that case (there are more people reviewing it, fixing it, and getting cracked with it).
But a closed proprietary software, is always less secure when crackers have its source code, than otherwise.
And finding ways to crack it was probably the reason Kevin Mitnick kept it in the first place.
no one close to the case has stated that kevin mitnick committed fraud, or anything even close to it. go read your definition of fraud in black's legal dictionary, where it states that an essential element of fraud is deprivation, and then come back to this thread.
He got off easy...
hmmm..... 5 years in federal prison without trial or bail, refusal to grant a bail hearing (unprecedented in u.s. history, as far as i know), refusal to permit a defendant to review the evidence against him in violation of the constitution, manipulation by the government of sworn statements by "victim" companies (= "suborning perjury", "obstruction of justice") -- doesn't sound all that "easy" to me....
He broke the law. He gets the punishment that's due to him...
if he got the punishment that was "due to him," he would have been charged with simple theft of cell phone time, and simple trespass in computers: no valid legal claim that he committed fraud exists, which is why the government refused to permit the defense to see the evidence. if he had been charged appropriately, he would have pled out years ago.
If you don't want to get in trouble, stop breaking the fucking law...
congratulations - you made your first valid point.
Worry about actual problems with the US...not about [mitnick, who] broke the law and now wants your sympathy.
afaik, kevin mitnick has never asked for sympathy, he's asked that he be treated consistent with the u.s. constitution and the bill of rights. as recently as a hearing in the state case, held perhaps 3 weeks ago, the judge set bail at $1 million after reading stories in the newspapers about kevin aloud, in court - this is reflected in the transcript - stories based on the fabricated claims of john markoff. markoff has never met kevin. markoff has made more than a million dollars telling false and defamatory information about kevin.
if anyone should be charged with fraud, it's markoff.
> He did it. > Society disapproves. >Society has created the US gov't to do something > about it, and said "this is that penalty" > US gov't does something about it I am sure that he broke the law. I am also sure that society disapproves. I am also sure that if you had half a clue about this case you wouldn't waste our time with stupid posts. He didn't even get a bail hearing!!! Or yeah, and I think that society would disapprove of Mitnick being locked up for seven months in SOLITARY CONFINMENT for computer crimes, when rapeists and murders get of with much less. Do yourself a favor and read a book on the subject. I sugest "The Fugitive Game" by Jon Littman.
freekevin.com would obviously be biased (as all sources are) so you really can't take that at face value.
He's been in prison for over four years already. Think of the emotional toll that takes on a person. He had a choice of either pleading guilty in which he would most probably get "time served" or a little time more, OR he could plead not guilty, go through more leagle hassles, emotional distress, and unfair tactics (like not being allowed to review the evidence against him) and have the possibility of having to face the maximum sentenceing time. If he had plead not guilty, he would have been lucky to get out before he was 40. No joke. I'd have plead guilty too.
(Watch me get accused of being a troll...)
/.? How does it help to make people believe he was a super-cracker?
And since when were you the sole arbiter of truth? The truth is only strained from the facts by careful research, fact checking and fact finding, and sometimes alittle luck.
Secondly, it is only by raising public awareness and education that will ever cause any change to occur.
Along with "All progress depends on unreasonable men" from one of your other posts.
For someone so concerned about research and fact checking, you sure seem to make a lot of grand statements about the nature of politics and epistemology without any evidence to back you up. Who made you the sole arbiter of knowledge?
Since you show little inclination to familiarize yourself with the case, I won't bore you on details.
And I see you're eager to share your considerable research...
Who will America's next political prisoner be? Who's rights will be sacrificed next? Mine? Yours?
Well, there's an objective statement of fact. Nothing gets people going like an irrational fear that "they're next". I suppose you believe in slippery-slopes, too.
You missed something that is rather important: a lot of this Free Kevin stuff isn't helping, and could be hurting his case. Have you noticed all of the "Kevin wasn't a script kiddie, he was 3117" posts on
In fact, if he appears as a worthless little script-kiddie it's a lot more likely that there will be enough public outrage to have him freed. No one wants to help a 'cyber-terrorist', but a young man just trying to look cool and mess around with computers? Why should *he* be in jail?
Of course, a public outcry shouldn't be required anyway. I agree that he has been something stinks about his imprisionment, the gov't hasn't been playing it straight and the companies have been lying there asses off. OTOH, I've got to wonder where you've been. This sort of thing has been happening for decades (centuries, even). Kevin is just one in a very long line (and he's doing rather well, compared to many others). Pep rallies aren't going to fix it because the public just doesn't care. Sure they may feel bad for him, but don't count on them to actually *do* anything. For many (most?) people, there's a wide gulf between the little world they make for themselves and the one they share with us. Don't expect them to cross it just because of a little thing like justice or principle.
(And before anyone points out that I'm making statements about mankind no less grand than his, remember: I never *claimed* to be objective or know anything about the Truth with a capital 'T'.)
Sure! It's a police procedural/manhunt, the first about a new kind of crime. And it's also a true story of one of the very first manhunts for this crime - when the techniques are still being developed on-the-fly. Imagine how the crime-movie fans would drool over a true history of the first-ever manhunt for murder, bank-robbery, or swindling.
It's a drama about a battle between the light-side and dark-side. Mitnick is one of the few crackers who can aspire to the title "hacker". Shimomura is a multi-talented expert, a hacker (in the MIT AI lab sense), recognized as such by his peers. Security consultation is a small part of what he does. But he does it very well, and part of doing it was developing some of the tools that he ended up using to track Mitnick down.
Mitnick could have been still-at-large today. But he broke into Tsutomu's machines (while Tsutomu was on vacation) to steal his tools, notes, and correspondence, leaving tracks on the machines (and a "nyah-nyah" on voicemail). By stealing this info he turned himself into a much larger threat to the network community in general, and a personal threat to Tsutomu, dragging him into the manhunt. So Tsutomu dropped his work and spent months tracking down Mitnick, as the lower-cost option. And was reluctantly cast as the hero in a personal duel.
It's a western. Pioneer settler in new territory, top-gun due to talent developed by necessity, whose work includes sometimes helping the other settlers and businessmen defend themselves against criminals, is goaded into a fight by a big-name gunman trying to boost his reputation. With help from (occasionally bumbling) sidekick and (initially reluctant) lawmen, tracks down and captures the bad guy.
And of course it's a documentary of very interesting new tech.
So how often does Hollywood get to do a movie accessable and appealing to crime fans, western fans, fantasy-drama fans, and techies, all in a single package? It could be the biggest movie of the year.
Any bets on whether Hollywood blows it?
Bantam Dominique roosters crow a four-note song. Once you've heard it as "Happy BIRTHday" you can't NOT hear it that way
Killing mentally ill people is a classic in the USA. But there are even more compelling cases, see for instance the careful www.essential.org/dpic/index.html ("Other Cases of Possible Innocence"), or http://members.tripod.com/~Boycott/Execution.html, or follow links starting from http://www.uaa.alaska.edu/just/deat h/index.html.
Two possible cases of innocents in the death row, from these sites, are Jimmy Dennis and Charles Raby. There are others (an average of 4 people are freed from death row every year, for they are innoncent).
"playing hardball" implies this is some sort of game, wherein the government has unlimited -- literally unlimited -- resources, and the defendant's resources are limited by the court, and then they say "play ball." it's only a game if you're a prosecutor, since your actions are beyond criminal sanction. you can perjure yourself, you can suborn perjury from others, you can file false charges, manufacture evidence, and convict innocent people, but never face criminal charges for those actions. as a prosecutor you are literally above the law.
in your opnion it's "socially unacceptable"; most recently, the USG issued a call to "crack" systems in a country with which the USG disagreed.
or how 'bout this: you commit a low-level crime and get arrested. you spend 8 months in solitary confinement in a cell the size of a small bathroom, with a single hour per day outside that cell. you take a shower alone, while watched by prison guards. upon your release, you observe all requirements of your supervised release.
unknown to you, your parole officer files a warrant for your arrest, and fails to notify you of the warrant.
upon completion of the terms of supervised release, you leave the city you've been living in to start a new life. a few months after you move, you learn of the "secret" warrant for your arrest. ever hear of the term, "set up"?
he knew when he was doing something wrong and he knew what would happen if he got caught. The choice was his.
quite true. but no one could have predicted markoff's lies published on the front page of the nytimes. and no one could have predicted the resulting government campaign, and the lawbreaking by the FBI, the prosecutors, and by markoff himself, in his work as a de factogovernment agent in violation of federal law.
So why do so many people stll see him as a victim?
more than likely, because "so many people" have taken the time to read the website, and to read of the extraordinary violations of someone's constitutional rights, as noted in this extraordinary summation of the case: No Experts. No Evidence. No Justice.
why don't you try doing the same?
you conveniently left out many previous facts...
as you have, mr. markoff. or is it mr. shimomura? you've neglected to mention that the police and the secret service, as well as the FBI, if memory serves, all indicated they had no interest in arresting mr. mitnick in seattle when he'd been discovered there by a p.i. about a year later, john markoff writes a collection of lies on the front page of the new york times, and issues this challenge to the feds:
the next day the U.S. Marshals announced a nationwide "hunt" for (as you put it in your articles), "cyberspace's most wanted."
funny, isn't it, how someone can go from a complete unknown to the subject of a nationwide manhunt on the basis of a single front page nytimes article?
I didn't sign your "social contract"
In that case, leave alone property (computers) belonging to companies which implicitly say they have signed (by suing Kevin Mitnick, in accordance to the rules edicted in the contract).
You cannot set your own laws on the property belonging to others that say they want to be ruled by the existing law.
looks like 2600 might have to start looking for a new cause. heh, personally i think cracking and hacking have both been glorified way out of proportion, and i wousdnt waste 1 breath trying to justify his actions.
Kevin was a REPEAT OFFENDER, the reason he was dealt with in a harsh manner was not because of hacking/cracking or whatever, it was because he refused to learn from his past mistakes.
If I break into your house and don't take anything, I just look around then leave, that's fairly harmless yet still against the law. If I do that several times, get arrested, spend time in jail, get out, and do it again then it's not so harmless.
For the full scoop, check out freekevin
Kevin Mitnick was in the wrong place at the wrong time. This story has been going on for longer than slashdot has been in existance. This story was going on before Linux was more than a twinkle in somebody's eye, and before the Web was anything more than the province of colleges.
So you'll forgive me if I am alittle irate at the idea of people comparing him to a "script kiddie", because not only don't they know the story, but they are doing a grave dis-service to the community by saying something like that.
Kevin Mitnick, in short, is a political prisoner. He was in the wrong place at the wrong time, and has paid for it with over four years in jail without a trial. That's what makes this story significant to the community - that our government was, and still is, so ignorant of how computers and networks work, that they will imprison people for years and years without a trial because they don't understand. Kevin is in jail because of political posturing - the SS and FBI needed to make an example, and that came in the form of one Kevin Mitnick, a petty thief with just enough knowledge of computers to fool the public into thinking he was some super-terrorist.
And that, fellow slashdotters, is why this story is important. Somebody's right to due process was stripped away; Because of ignorance, apathy, and political posturing, a man has been sitting in jail for four years, unable to contribute anything to society. Rapists spend less time in jail than this person has.
Keep that in mind before you try to dismiss this as just another script kiddie who got caught...
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Oh jeez. This Bs here at slashdot. Two words: Free Software (if you want to pay nothing, you pay nothing; I know that it's Free as in Freedom and not Free as in Zero Price, but you can get it for Zero Price if you want to).
So if I stab someone, does that mean I can get to handle the knife? "Hold on a sec, lemme clean the blood off"
what do you expect? he was forbidden the use of a computer and given a mountain of evidence to wade through while the gov't had already prepared their end.
in that situation, you'd be stupid to go to trial
I do know... I have researched it quite a bit and I have interviewed (AKA spoke with) the author of the real book on Kevin mitnick's escapades.. (Not that idiot that didnt know squat that the movie is based on) I know how he did things, I know he was basically a script kiddy that mostly stole cellular service and equipment, and his "exceptional abilities" was from password harvesting. He's an ankle biter all the way around... Good grief man if you'd research it a bit you'd see his usenet postings and bbs postings where he trades passwords for passwords etc... The well was cracked by someone that had a clue and mitnick stumbled across the root password in usenet.. (the well was compromised for almost a 2 year period, what kind of idiots dont change the root password every month?) you obviously dont know how much was lost... it's been proven that the "company losses" were inflated claims based on "what if" because noone really knows if he did look or didnt... and his Cell phone source code wasn't even stolen by him!! (it was in fact stolen by mr Samauri where mitnick easily got in via an open FTP port.)
I know I'm feeding a troll, but I know what happened, you only know what cnn force feeds you.
Do not look at laser with remaining good eye.
I take it you've never bothered to read the Bill of Rights.
this is embarrassingly inaccurate. y'all really need to check your sources, pal. this is far closer to the truth:
when the techniques are still being developed on-the-fly. Imagine how the crime-movie fans would drool over a true history of the first-ever manhunt for murder, bank-robbery, or swindling.
again, we like our version much, much better:
It's a drama about a battle between the light-side and dark-side. Mitnick is one of the few crackers who can aspire to the title "hacker".this is patent propaganda, and represents very real influence by the nytimes propaganda machine. Anyone who knows Kevin personally can attest to the fact that his skills as a "hacker" are quite ordinary when compared to someone like Lewis DePayne, or Kevin Poulsen.
Shimomura is a multi-talented expert, a hacker (in the MIT AI lab sense), recognized as such by his peers.
Again, pure propaganda. If Shimmie is such a "multi-talented expert," why was his machine so easy to break into? Could it be that he was working with his long-time skiing companion, NYTimes writer John Markoff, to set a trap, and then blame any poor soul who wanders into the trap on Kevin Mitnick?
Security consultation is a small part of what he does. But he does it very well, ...
how do you know what he does, and how well he does it? because you read it in John Markoff's b.s. articles?
and part of doing it was developing some of the tools that he ended up using to track Mitnick down.
Since your comments are so clearly agit-prop, I won't spend much time on this: the "tools" that you mention are in flagrant violation of federal law, and constitute much worse criminal behavior by Shimomura than anything Kevin Mitnick was charged with.
But he broke into Tsutomu's machines (while Tsutomu was on vacation) to steal his tools, notes, and correspondence, leaving tracks on the machines (and a "nyah-nyah" on voicemail).
Even the scriptkiddies on AOL know that there's no proof anywhere that Kevin Mitnick had anything to do with Shimomura's machine. The voice in those voicemails is clearly not Kevin's. In light of the illegal actions by the government to fabricate evidence and tamper with witnesses, do you really think they wouldn't charge Kevin with breaking into Shimmie's machine if Kevin had done so? Of course they'd charge him.
By stealing this info he turned himself into a much larger threat to the network community in general, and a personal threat to Tsutomu, dragging him into the manhunt. So Tsutomu dropped his work and spent months tracking down Mitnick, as the lower-cost option. And was reluctantly cast as the hero in a personal duel.
Now I know you're Shimmie. Or his f*ckbuddy.
Sure. So I guess Solaris source code came preinstalled on his hard disk then, along with other software from Motorola, and with passwords for dozens of computers of Sun Microsystems, Novell, Motorola, Fujitsu. Sure. And he just broke into Shimomura by mistake, sure, everyone believes this one. Check his feats here
My comment was about the California charges - he did not break into the computers they had charged him with. I was not asserting that he didn't break into the computers covered by the federal charges - that's a separate matter entirely, and those charges haven't been dropped.
Yes. But he is also an associal nerd that cracked for more than 15 years, was arrested more than 5 times, spent one year in jail, and commited further offense repeatidly. The truth is that the justice doesn't know what to do with him: he can't learn his lesson, is a real threat to the society (the moment he decides to do harm, real harm will be done).
Being an "asocial nerd" is not illegal in the United States. He's not a danger to society, since none of his crimes have been violent in any way whatsoever. He broke into some computers, and caused no real damage. As you mentioned, he's been doing this on and off for 15 years, and has not maliciously caused any damage during that entire period. I think it's safe to assume he's not going to cause any damage any time soon. He's not any more of a danger to society than your average script kiddie is.
10 PRINT CHR$(205.5+RND(1)); : GOTO 10
we contacted Brill's several times, but they turned us down. the reason? our guess is that they're afraid of the New York Times on this one, which involves criminal behavior, whereas their examination of Gina Kolata's biased "reporting" on science issues was simply a matter for journalistic ethics. can't say we didn't try.
"Who is going to trust a security program for which crackers have already the source code. " *Cough* I would *never* trust a security program that DIDN'T have source code. Especially here in the US, where backdoors get you political favor and (soon?) potential tax breaks. If someone doesn't trust their security code enough to release the source (knowing that their methods are well-protected by any patents), I don't trust their security worth ten cents. It is only slightly better than sending it plaintext. Possibly worse, in that amateurs may consider it 'their challenge' to get your data.
I personally couldn't care less about what he did at this point. If it was wrong, he should have been in jail years ago. If it wasn't wrong, he should have been free, years ago.
It's outrageous that he was held without trial, for what? Three years??? Simply because the justice system is inadequate to handle computer crime. His trespass was too sophisticated to prosecute. So while the D.A. tried to study the issue, Mitnick was sitting in a cell, wasting years of time. Damn! He could have been making $100k for each of those years, honestly..
It is shameful that there probably wasn't a law against what he did, when he did it. But now, I'm sure there is. This is a constitutional matter at this point. Where is the speedy trial? What about HIS RIGHTS? What about the precedent this is setting?
-- What you do today will cost you a day of your life.
It sums up a reasonably poor attitude toward a responsibility you have if you want to participate in U.S. society.
You may be interested to know, despite the flacidity of will your post implies, that jury duty is actually one of those times when you get to circumvent elections, and the frustration of poor judicial appointments, and even your frustrations with the laws, and make decisions about the laws themselves along with your fellow jurors.
I am not a lawyer, and I am not willing to get into a debate over the validity of it, but you might want to read about jury nullification.
Empowered with that bit of knowledge, and flush with desire to do something besides recriminate your fellow citizens as an excuse to do nothing yourself, and aware now that if one socio-political hack exists maybe there are more, maybe you can make a difference.
Not interested in making a difference? Too cynical at the advanced age of 17 to do much because you've been there and done that? Might as well stop bothering at all. If you're that cashed at that age, your future is going to suck.
----------
mphall@cstone.nospam.net
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mphall@cstone.nospam.net
"A horse laugh is worth a thousand syllogisms"
That's an easy bullshit answer. Try again with a bit more depth.
Everyone is biased. Slashdot, ZDNet, CNN, BBC, MSNBC, your grandmother's sewing circle, Rush Limbaugh's radio show. Every source of information has some bias built in.
No side of any issue believs that they are the unjust, the villains, the legions of evil. That would make things too neat and tidy.
That's the funny part - he didn't break into the database. He called up the desk clerk and pretended to be somebody else, and they just gave him the information. Of course the charges were dropped, since they were completely false charges.
It's pretty pathetic that it took the California prosecutors nearly five years to realize that he didn't break into their computers.
10 PRINT CHR$(205.5+RND(1)); : GOTO 10
Instead of 'FREE KEVIN', we campaign 'LOCK UP OJ!'. :)
Well, as several others have pointed out already, these were the California state charges that were dropped. He was charged with breaking into the DMV computers, and it took them five years to realize that he didn't break into the computers after all (which is why they have no evidence to use in a trial and have to drop the charges). He just called up the front desk, pretended to be somebody else, and obtained the information over the phone.
As for the federal charges, he was scheduled to be sentenced last week. However, the sentencing hearing was delayed again, despite the fact that neither Mitnick's lawyers nor the prosecution had asked for a delay, and the fact that the judge had previously promised that there would be no more delays in the hearing (it has already been delayed several times). It's now scheduled for August 9th.
As for the speedy trial, Mitnick did indeed waive his right to a speedy trial, but only because the court refused to let him spend more than a few hours a week in the legal library, refused to allow him to use a computer to review analyze computer disks that were to be used as evidence, and refused to pay his court-appointed lawyer for more than the standard number of hours, despite the fact that there were millions of pages of evidence to go through. Since the court purposely made his defence's evidence review so slow, he had no choice but to waive his right to a speedy trial, in the hopes that he could at least get a fair one. The trial was delayed even more by various unexplained administrative snafus such as the sentencing hearing delay mentioned above.
Throughout the case, the FBI, Secret Service, and corporations have been unreasonable and just plain stupid. The Secret Service initially argued against bail, saying that he could possibly interfere with the 1996 presidential election. They refused to let him have a walkman in the cell, fearing that his super-hacker skills could lead him to make a tape recorder out of it (despite the fact that it had no recording head). Sun Microsystems claimed that by viewing some of their proprietary source code, Mitnick caused them $80 million in damage. Now they give that source code away for free, so obviously their damage claims are frivolous. Sun isn't the only guilty corporation either. When the letters discussing these ludicrous damages were made public, the corporations and government became upset at being exposed.
All in all, Kevin Mitnick is a petty thief who has been set up as an example by an incompetent group of corporations and beaurocracies as some sort of super-hacker-terrorist who must be shut away.
10 PRINT CHR$(205.5+RND(1)); : GOTO 10
I didn't say ANYTHING about the truth of the claims, or my own opinions, of the matters in question.
The only issue I'm addressing is the incredulity of the previous poster at the concept of making a movie of "Takedown". So I showed how it could be made into a blockbuster.
You may recall that "Takedown" was written by a team composed of Tsutomu and a partner. So of COURSE any movie made from it will portray the Shimomura interpretation of the events.
Pay attention!
Bantam Dominique roosters crow a four-note song. Once you've heard it as "Happy BIRTHday" you can't NOT hear it that way
It's obvious that it was a vendetta. They charged him with breaking into the DMV database, something which he had clearly not done. They had no evidence of him breaking into the database beyond the fact that he had some of the information it contained. All he did was call up the DMV and ask for the information ("social engineering"), not break into anything.
The "vendetta theory" is backed up by the fact that the charges were dropped by the new prosecutor almost as soon as the previous one was removed from the case.
10 PRINT CHR$(205.5+RND(1)); : GOTO 10
It's interesting that slashdotters manage to work Microsoft into every article, no matter how unrelated it is. it seems the "community" is somewhat obsessed with that particular company.
10 PRINT CHR$(205.5+RND(1)); : GOTO 10
Mitnick broke into the motor vehicles database to obtain information to help him allude authorities. That's a crime, which he should pay for. I don't understand people who support this dork and are eager to let a criminal free.
First off if you would have read me post you would have noticed i type "as reported by the compaines them selves." Never did I actually agree with the damages being that high considering that none of the source code he stole is currently used to day, besides the source code which sun is now giving away. I actually haven't heard anything on CNN about Kevin because I don't think they put anything on about him just like the rest of the Main stream media. I did however read takedown (horribly written.) And Online with Kevin Mitnick as well as hnn, 2600 and the free kevin page. I don't know if I belive that shit about him just getting everything of Usenet or their would be a hell of alot more damage done by script kiddes that have gotten passwords of usenet. I think that you sould at least admit your wrong by saying that Kevin was a petty theft. I'm not sure if password harvesting makes Kevin a Script kiddes. Script kiddes usally download scripts of the web such as rootshell.com and try and run them (,of course half of them can't figure out howto compile them.)I really don't beleive that Saumuri was the one that stole the source code and the accidently left a open ftp port on his box. To sum this hole post up I basicly beleive that everything you just said came out of your ass and if you would leave links and such to the usenet postings or something to back your story up, I will be the first to admit I'm wrong. I really don't consider myself a toll. I would like to think of myself as more of a human, but I really don't care about your petty name calling.
You're saying that if people think their country's justice system is fucked up, the proper way for them to deal with it to leave?
--
Fuck the system? Nah, you might catch something.
There needs to be a threshhold value to set that excludes any /. story concerning Mitnick.
I sure did write Email and sign petition. If none of us care about this deal, he wouldn't be heard and he would be sentenced already.
If you mean "shame on me" then don't say "shame on you, shame on me" because I don't think everybody else deserve this.
Yes, and what I saw on this thread were mostly lame insults. So I passed on. Hell, I'm having fun. Hope you are, too.
It's unfortunate that Kevin Mitnick has been in jail since he was arrested, without having bail. Doesn't the United States have "Innocent until proven guilty" as the foundation of the justice system? I mean, people who have committed worse atrocities have been bailed, why not Mitnick?
The reason that he has been in jail for so long is that the justice system (including here in Canada) is basically a drama. Whoever presents a better argument, whether based on fact or fiction (or a combination of the two) will more than likely be able to sway a judge (especially one who is inexperienced with the nature of the crimes) and most definitely sway an uninformed jury. Unfortunately, we have come to a day in age where the facts no longer matter, whoever puts on the better show wins the trial. Look at the case of Guy Paul Morin for an example for this. In fact, that case (which I studied in my criminology class this past year in university) has some similarities. Guy Paul was considered odd by the general public, and therefore was considered to be the primary suspect in the case. He was convicted based on this, and had to spend nearly 10 years in jail before he was exonerated by DNA evidence. If the police would have conducted an investigation in the first place, none of that would have happened.
In this case, the feds were able to paint the picture that Mitnick is a dangerous man because he was able to con people over the phone and he did some cracking and copied some documents. By telling the judge that he did millions of dollars in damage, he made what my friends got two years probation for into a major event.
Don't get me wrong here. Mitnick is guilty, and deserves to be punished. However, I think that when it comes time to the sentencing, he should simply be set free, having served his time. If I recall correctly, in Canada, an accused person must be brought to trial within one year of being arrested. If not, the person is released, innocent or guilty. There have been cases where the person has gotten away with murder in Canada because of this law. It most certainly should have been applied in this case.
A person stated in an earlier reply that if you don't like the system of justice, then move. If you want to move, fine, then move. However, Canada and the U.S. have two of the finest justice systems in the world. In some places, you are shot on site if you are even SUSPECTED of committing a crime, never mind a "fair" trial and due process.
My two cents worth,
Joe (posted as an Anonymous Coward because my password wasn't e-mailed to me yet)
It was because his defense lawyers kept having the trial date pushed back. So its not really the government's fault for this.
Jeez, I just came here for an argument
which side freekevin.com is biased towards?
http://us.imdb.com/Title?0159784
Kevin Mitnick was, to put it bluntly, screwed. He was a guy with a basic knowledge of computers, and an intimate knowledge of cellular technology, and insatiable curiosity. He wasn't the terrorist super-cracker evil demon the world made him out to be.
:P
The book about the whole thing, "Takedown," is full of half-truths and blatant lies. In condensed form, straight from someone who was at the Free Kevin rallies, here is the basics.
-Kevin Mitnick was an ordinary guy who was curious.
-Kevin liked to explore things, albeit illegally.
-Kevin like to 'borrow' those thing to figure them out, or to save a few bucks.
-Kevin got caught.
-The FBI/NSA decided to make an example out of Kevin, and locked him up.
-Kevin was stripped of his rights of due process, and left to rot.
Which pretty much brings us up to now.
Kevin wasn't someone out to cause chaos; he was a curious guy, sorta like me, who just went about his learning a different way. I won't deny that some of the things he did were wrong, and I won't defend them. That's not the issue.
The issue is that Kevin Mitnick has been held in a federal prison, in solitary confinement frequently, for many years now, without trial, a bail set, or access to computers. The government has repeatedly stated that they will make sure that Kevin never touches another computer again as long as he lives.
What really scares me is that this could happen to anyone, and the government has proven it. Years of fighting the government, grass root efforts, rallies, campaigns, and more has had NO effect. Kevin's still locked up. What should happen if they decide to do that to you or me? Maybe we'll get the same support as Kevin, but what good will it do? The FBI/NSA have done more than make an example; they've shown that they are the law, and are above the laws set by our government. This is truly terrifying, as that basically means if they want to execute you for being a cracker or script kiddy, they could do it, and get away with it.
Noone is safe, and they've proven it. And there's nothing we can do about it, as they've proven. I don't know about you, but I'm very afraid of our government now. Maybe we'll all get lucky and the FBI and NSA will be dissolved. But I doubt that; with my luck, they're en route to arrest me and make sure I never see the light of day again.
-RISCy Business | Rabid System Administrator and BOFH
your company here.
shelby != ford
The real Mitnick issue is civil rights and abuse of power by authorities. The real villains are lemmings like you who allow this to happen by blindling siding with the authorities.
hacking constructing cool programming routines. This is mainly writing your own software, augmentening other's software *or* auditing/adjusting/(urgh)bugfixing it. Something all real programmers do continuously. cracking exposing that which is hidden. Reversing the a software/hardware structure with all the tools at your disposale and usually with very little information to go on (sometimes not even the binaries on a machine you control - very, very difficult). This is really reverse engineering and for that you need some serious technical background. Breaking into machines for the challenge? pfff.. that's a combination of the two. There are many situations that this happens with me. I try to break into all the machines my friends control that are connected to networks I have access to. They know it. They do the same to me, and I'm grateful for it. (I love having such friends!) We give each other *lots* of feedback and advice. But it does make us a bit wierd at parties where we meet. Even some CS majors can't follow our conversations.. But what the hell, we're weird compared to *any* normal people... conversation can go from computer B&E to skydiving to spelunking (cave exploration) to physics, drugs, etc.. Most people seem pretty boring after such sessions .. hehe .. uhh - offtopic .. Some of us also do this professionally (but no-one does it full-time - security specialists are mostly morons and managers who are little better than skriptkiddies). Breaking into machines for the hell of it/feeling of power/whatever? uhh.. skriptkiddying. Whaha. Yeah, like that's fun or constructive.. Anytime I see some moron 'crack' a server and replace index.html with a file saying how 31337 [s]he is, I laugh my nuts off (figuratively speaking - I'd be in debt to my local cloning bank otherwise). Skriptkiddies usually have the competence level of your average MCSE (and mostly not even that). But, these kiddies are *good*! Not because of the 'principals' they have, but of the *overall* effect they have. More on kiddies . . . Large scale breakins in servers highlight the necessicty of adequate security measures. Not directly on www.grannys-server.com, but on the vendors and the industry as a whole - the people who supply the software that runs these sites. Sure, the person running granny.com will get burned. Ok, so that's not very nice and I won't contribute to it (personal statement here, I wouldn't want to annoy Joe Random Admin - I hate it when people claim 'superiority' when they hurt someone less 'skilled' in this area . . .) These massive attacks show the world some very basic flaws in the structure. They provide the basic level of pressure necessary to further the (still growing) security measures we are starting to develope. Processor speed increases because there is a market demand for it. The kiddies provide the same pressure for security. If there were no kiddies or malicious system hackers/crackers (haha! dream on) there would be no growth in the public secure systems area. Ok, I don't feel like persuing this any farther, but believe me (or listen to my words, take your pick), the vast majority of skriptkiddies have less competence that you, the reader. They are barely one step up from normal users. Most of them do not even understand TCP/IP at protocol level. . . Ok, on to Mitnick. I have heard several things about him here, let's see. . . * He's an asshole and should be locked up forever. He may be an asshole (the media seems to favour this slant), but that's no reason to keep him locked up. * He's evil and will break into nuclear launch sites! Oh, give me a break. Mister Mitnick will never get near such controls. Even his much vaunted DMV 'hack' was just a bit of bullshitting on the phone. You believe he'll be able to lauch missiles like that? *whahahahah!!!!* * His knowledge is outdated. No it's not. He's not a kiddie. He been around since the early 80s and is not only an accomplished fonephreaker (telco specialist), but also a security specialist - software, mainly. Ever heard of IP-spoofing? It was noted by rtm *way* back, but Mitnick constructed his own software to exploit it. After that, it gained a lot of fame in the security underground. But howmany servers have been compromised by that now? Bleargh... It is very specialized and no kiddie could exploit this remotely. I estimate that it'll take him 3-6 months to get up to speed with the latest protocols. And that's generous. * I'm afraid of him Most of the posters seem to say this. No they don't say this, they imply it by saying 'evi!! lock him up!!!!'. God should strike these people with lightning. What, no argument? No, just fry'em. Morons. * Give him 80 to life!! Um.. do you know what he's done? Obviously not. What he has actually done is neither very interesting nor very harmful. I'm not condoning his actions, but relatively speaking, read this. - He's been in jail for 5+ years. For what? Circumventing a few security measures? Annoying a few people? Getting off on an ego trip? - Look at this country he's being held. They let convicted rapists go after 1 year. Some murderers can leave jail after 3-4 years if they show good behaviour (in the US). What has he done? Really? Oh, yes. He read Sun and Motorola source code. That cost them 100 million+ dollars? Right. They give this source away for 100 $ to students and other interested parties. Bottom line : he's been anti-social and annoyed a few people. That's not nice and he's done it before. So he should be punished. But 5+ years in a block of murders? Is the US justice system on acid? * He did some real B&E Yeah, some kids prak to get software manuals. Sure, impersonation is bad, but that site had some really lousy security if he (and his pals) could just walk in and load up their car with COSMOS manuals. Anyway - he's already done time for this. IT'S NOT RELEVANT. aaa! - I'm tired. Get some sense people. * Sorry about the formatting. Really. Anonymous by Choice. (But you can call me Toby.)
To assert, as you do, that Jamal "did" what he was accused of, presumes he was convicted beyond a reasonable doubt in a fair trial.
In fact, he has not had a fair trial. Maybe he did it, maybe he didn't, but the interest of justice is not served by presuming guilt.
Furthermore, and more significant to some people, is that even if he was given a fair trial, his conviction was for murder in the SECOND degree. That is to say, this is a crime for which the penalty is never execution in Pennsylvania -- UNLESS the victim happens to have been a police officer.
I guess some animals are more equal than others, after all.
Peace and love, y'all
You see, this is all moot. He waived his right to a speedy trial (for a good reason or not). You can't get probation if you haven't been sentenced, and you can't be sentenced without a trial. A bail hearing and/or bail is not a right, so everyone bitching about that needs to drop their illusions that life and the law are fair and live with the fact that somethings are just plain fucked up. As for Mitnick's crimes being "stupid" -- tell that to the companies that lost money from his activities. The DMV charge had nothing to do with his current time in jail and, assuming he does get out in January (as the article predicted), the bastard has spent only 5 years in federal prison for crimes (fraud) that others spend much longer in jail for.
So I'm not going to feel sorry for him, and I'm not going to go out and champion his fucking cause. He got off easy. And if I hear any more of this complaining about him having his computer taken away and how it's unfair for him to have to pay reconstitution fines I'm going to snap. He broke the law. He gets the punishment that's due to him. Or, in this case, less since he pled "guilty" (and this is supposed to be some kind of show of remorse). If you don't want to get in trouble, stop breaking the fucking law. It's really as simple as that. None of these impromptu conspiracies out to get you when you're mowing your lawn.
Worry about actual problems with the US, like cryptography and vague bills attempting to prohibit reverse engineering, not about some fuckwit that broke the law and now wants your sympathy.
You're just lucky I don't check /. that often.
Molly Ivins wrote a great column about Robison, but it's not on the Fort Worth Startlegram's Web site anymore...
She tells that Robison's sister also has schizophrenia, and her parents were able to get her into a mental hospital only after telling Larry's story "at loud decibels."
J.
damned vulpine http://sb.drtwister.com/
Oh, please, now you're getting away from reality to ideals. And elitist ones at that. You can't just say, "Well, you're stupid, so we won't help you." It's impossible to determine if someone has expended enough effort or could have possibly known. Should haves, as someone earlier said in a different context, don't count. Bob should have known he could get a virus. After all, he's on the Internet and downloading stuff. Yeah, bullshit.
All you're doing is transferring blame to victims of crimes. It's exactly the same mentality that has and may still let rapists go: really, dressed like that, what did she expect? She wasn't wearing panties, she must've wanted me to beat the hell out of her and fuck her, right?
Now, if you're talking about things people do to themselves, for instance spilling hot coffee between their legs, I would agree. But in this case, we're not talking about such things: Mitnick knowingly and willingly committed crimes targeted at other people/companies. You can't say the company is at fault if it gets cracked.
This is the real fucking world, not some fantasy place where everyone can prepare for everything.
recommended reading
I see even classic Slashdot is now pretty much unusable on dial up anymore.
No..but if you pose as the phone repair man to get my phone number it most certainly is.
Now, the other side of the coin, ie. what kind of stupid idiot let's themselves be fooled by such a ruse, is an entirely different discussion.
I'm sorry, this is insults...
I know that sounds extreme, and I don't believe it myself; but nor do I find the logic in your argument, either -- that "he should be punished badly, but hey, not THAT badly !!"
Not that I speak from experience, but I SUSPECT that many/most criminals pursue SOME degree of risk analysis, considering what might happen if he/she gets caught. I'm not convinced Mitnick DIDN'T consider the possibility that he'd become a poster child -- to some degree, is this NOT what he was hoping for ??
And now, ask again, did he or did he deserve all of this? Ask Kevin this question when/if he gets his computer back .... I SUSPECT he won't care, and he'll go on the internet ...
Thanks, Kevin, for teaching us about the inclination for a corrupt soul of our government: Please learn your lesson next time ....
"He who questions training trains himself at asking questions." - The Sphinx, Mystery Men (1999)
Yes he waived his right to the speedy trial because it was NOT going to be FAIR. He would not have had all or any access to the evidence being used against him. Get a clue. --netweasel nw@2600.com
i'm glad your parents were killed you dumb fuck. I hope there is a God so you will go the same way they did.
>A person stated in an earlier reply that if you don't like the system of justice, then move. If you want to move, fine, then move. However,
:)
>Canada and the U.S. have two of the finest justice systems in the world. In some places, you are shot on site if you are even SUSPECTED >of committing a crime, never mind a "fair" trial and due process.
Indeed. You Americans complain too much. Try living over here, where as often as not, you'll end up "shot while attempting to escape". A few dozen times, with automatic weapons. Even if you were only picked up for jaywalking. (if you had the bad fortune to share a paddy-wagon with someone the cops didn't like...). And that was way back when the death penalty was still illegal over here.
And that's if you're lucky. If you're not, you get to experience police interrogation. Expect to kiss your testicles goodbye. Literally.
Hmm. I wonder if Mitnick ever did anything here? We do have an extradition treaty with the US.
He is being held WITHOUT BAIL awaiting his federal trial. --netweasel nw@2600.com
I just think it would be simpler if "Cracker" encompassed both of your definitions. Then "hacker" could remain with the meaning that is quite popular among many techies(i.e someone who does cool computer related things).
I read the previously posted definitions (but can't quite remember them), but, my thing is:
I always had this impression that "cracker" encompassed "hacker".. to me, it makes sense that it would. "Cracker" being one who hacked and did illegal junk... and/or got caught for it (well, not that.. getting caught isn't important).
Anyway, that's my thought-of-the-day.
Insert mind here.
In all criminal prosecutions, the accused shall enjoy the right to a speedy and public trial, by an impartial jury of the state and district wherein the crime shall have been committed, which district shall have been previously ascertained by law, and to be informed of the nature and cause of the accusation; to be confronted with the witnesses against him; to have compulsory process for obtaining witnesses in his favor, and to have the assistance of counsel for his defense.
What really bugs me about this is whole thing is that these companies (prompted by the DA) are claiming that by looking at their source code, Mitnick caused them damadges equal to the development cost of the software. Unfortunately, the judge seems to be too clueless to know any better. How frightening.
From what I see, this wasn't hacking, nor was it cracking. It was social engineering....let's see how long it takes the press to cotton on to /that/ one..
[doesn't hold breath]
--- "If a man speaks in a forest, and no woman hears him, is he still wrong?"
It would be very interesting to see Brill's Content spend some research dollars looking at John Markov's (perhaps improper) roll (along with the NYT) in this entire mess.
It's only deserving since the media leaked tons of info, the whole case was screwy from the beginning, and Shomimura rebuilt his empire with the invention of the Tamagotchi pet. Come on if embezzlers can walk out of their jobs with millions and get a slap on the wrist then he too should've walked.
Oh well guess I'll have to change the FREE KEVIN buttons on my site to say LOCK UP KEVIN since srcipt kiddies no longer have anything to bitch about...
P.S. to the moron above who posted Mitnick is an asshole or idiot... I think your just a jealous little dipshit of someone who had and probably has more knowledge/skills than you.
Want Root?
Hell, if they say you're guilty then you must be. I'm not quite sure why the even
bothered with keeping him in jail for 4 years without a trial when it has been stated
that he was guilty. They shoulda just sent him along his way to a medium security
prison. Wow, you are a ground breaker...!!!! with your savvy modern thinking, you
could solve all of the judicial system's congestion problems. Hat's off to you sir.
}
You've missed a huge point in this whole process. People are guaranteed a right to a
speedy trial. I don't care if people have been in jail longer without a trial. It doesn't
discount anything! It's sad, I agree. The fact remains that nobody should be able to
say you are guilty of a crime and then wait 4 years (much less a few months) to
decide your guilt based on actual facts.
Not everyone is saying that "Kevin Mitnick is the most scandalous case of the all
American justice". They are only saying that it was wrong. I have to say I agree.
--
A mind is a terrible thing to taste.
"A mind is a terrible thing to taste."
Have you never seen the word face before?
Whatever crime a persons commits they deserve to be treated fairly acording to the law. From everything ive heard the various law enforcment agencies have gone out of there way to make an example of him. I think hes more famous because of the treatment hes got by law enforcment agancies than the crimes he commited. The law made him a martyr more than any dead he did
Do I need to say anything else? Maybe because I wish I knew what the fsck your talking about.
Bernie S. If you want to talk a bout a screwing take a look at his case. Can we let mitnick go already? I have not seen any thing ANYTHING new or worth reading in two years on this subject. As for how he got caught, He got cocky. The slow trial plenty of blame to spread; from wiaveing the right to a speed trial, to gov. snafu.
Did you know most ppl outside of us techies don't even remeber him. Think on that one for abit.
Kevin is a fool.
Wrong place at the wrong time? Sure.
He is a fool who deserves what he got / going to get. The DA droped the charges out of frustration, not out of evidence.
This reminds me of that Mumi Abodnaskdlnasdsad guy who killed a cop, right out in the open. Then, somehow the story got turned around so that people thought he was on death row for a crime he didn't commit. But he DID commit it... plain and simple.
Throw a revolution? Like the man said Americans are lazy and the Goverment is going to half to pull something big for people to get off their couch's and computer chairs and go start a revolution. We really can't change the justice system by voting. We don't elect people in the justice system (I'm only 17 so I'm just writting down what I rember from American Goverment, If I'm wrong please let me know.) Even though our elected leaders elect people to the Justice System, who they are going to elect to the Justice System is never a campaign issue. Americans care more about themselves such as SS, Welfare and Tax Cuts. Most Americans have the mentallity of the person that wrote this comment. Which is I'm not a criminal I souldn't care.
And rember a jury is composed of people who are too stupid to get out of Jury Duty. I think that about sums it up.
Throw a revolution? Like the man said Americans are lazy and the Goverment is going to half to pull something big for people to get off their couch's and computer chairs and go start a revolution. We really can't change the justice system by voting. We don't elect people in the justice system (I'm only 17 so I'm just writting down what I rember from American Goverment, If I'm wrong please let me know.) Even though our elected leaders elect people to the Justice System, who they are going to elect to the Justice System is never a campaign issue. Americans care more about themselves such as SS, Welfare and Tax Cuts. Most Americans have the mentallity of the person that wrote this comment. Which is I'm not a criminal I souldn't care.
And rember a jury is composed of people who are too stupid to get out of Jury Duty. I think that about sums it up. If you have a bright Idea of how we can change the system that actaully will make a diffrence please enlighten us all.
As far as the other stuff is concerned, it is interesting that the LA guys claim that the prosecutor was out to get Mitnick. It made it sound like it was a kind of vendetta, though I'm not overly clear what it was a vendetta over.
Mitnick is clearly very talented and very intelligent. I can easily see him ending up doing computer security work for a major company. If, as others have claimed, he's over the hill, let him do QA work! Someone needs to, given the crud that commercial companies produce.
It's a small world and it smells funny; I'd buy another if it wasn't for the money; Take back what I paid (SoM)
Unless, while at the same time you were stealing those secrets, your cohorts in China were using big bucks to bribe the most corrupt president and Dept. of Justice in U.S. history. In that case, maybe you'll lose your job, but you'll be well taken care of, and definitely don't have to worry about jail time. Just ask Wen Ho Lee, Charlie Trie, John Huang, or Johnnie Chung.
Cheers,
ZicoKnows@hotmail.com
Oh yeah, I just remembered that the U.S. media seems to be pretty unwilling to report on this story...
If you don't like the US move the fuck out. If you don't live here stay the fuck out. Oh and stay off any webserver located in the US. I am tired of hearing "children" whine about US policy. Without the US the internet would not even exist. This the best best country in the world where you can do pretty much anything you want. Anything does not include breaking the law. Don't do the crime if you can't do the time.
http://geocities.com/Athens/Pantheon/6765/index.ht ml
This guy went nuts after the state of Texas refused to give him the treatment he needed for his schizophrenia, killed five people, and is scheduled to die on August 17.
At least Mitnick gets to live as a neo-Luddite.
J.
damned vulpine http://sb.drtwister.com/
No, you came here for an argument!
Thank you so much for making me feel better about myself. My parents were both killed in a car accident by a drunk driver when I was 15. I found out about it when the cops came to my house and I overheard them telling the babysitter how they had to scrape them off the dashboard. Do me a favor and go put something very large and sharp up your ass, shit-breath.
I have this wacky theory...
I figure that the purpose of making such an example of Mitnik was designed to rally the hacking community.....
You see, it is expensive to protect companies against information warfare from foreign countries, which certain parts of the US Federal Government dearly wants. Companies are not willing to spend the cash for some foreign "boogie man", but they will spend it to protect against more believable evil hackers (many who incidently have a no-damage ethic).
Doing injustice to someone most hackers can identify with encourages solidarity and strengthens the hacking community, encouraging hacking.
This in turn, is a strong motivation for companies to properly secure their systems at their own cost, fulfilling Federal policy objectives.
If this is true, then look for another hacker poster-child to be thrown into the dungeon for seemingly inconsequential reasons, after the Mitnik contriversy dies down.
Wajja think about my latest conspiracy theory?
-Bobzibub
Pfaelzer has indicated that she will order Mitnick to make some restitution, which she is scheduled to decide Monday as well.
I belive this proves the judge's bias and lack of concern for both the spirit and letter of the law. The companies demanding restitution did not even report losses, and the claims were so ridiculous... "lesee, the source for solaris is worth oh... 8 Million dollars" and they sell an educational copy of the source for like, $200! Those numbers might be off, but why should he have to pay restitution to companies that pull numbers out of their ass and send to the FBI in an email when they won't even put it in a press release.
...fuck up someone's life, then drop the charges. Now, before everyone goes sideways one me, I'm not a "Free Kevin" Goober and I *DO* speak from experience. About 2 years ago, the OSI did a nice little number on my life... and then failed to follow up with charges (the entire thing was a snipe hunt anyway... a severly botched investigation on a wild goose chase half way around the world). I've already talk with employment and civil rights lawyers; there's basically nothing I can do about their storm trooper tactics. My only consulation is that I cost them a shitload of money and time and kept them from finding the real crackers who had gotten to some pretty sensitive data apparently (hey, they wouldn't even tell me what I had supposedly done). To give you a little prospective... It was roughtly the equivalent of FBI agents showing up at your Fortune 500 employer's office and start yelling "Hey, were's Mr. X... We heard he smokes pot... he walked past a head shop the other day... and we asked some of his college buddies if he ever toked up and they said yes... where's his boss? We want to let everyone know that he *MIGHT* be charged with feloney distribution if we find enough of a stash when we execute this search warrant that we have right here (pointing)... we're going to search his desk and interview a few co-workers to see if he sold them any crack, cause we suspect that he does that too... we also heard his boss get loaded with him, so we're going to talk to his bosses' boss to make sure we have everyone's full and undivided attention". Keep in mind that you passed an employment screening drug test. And though you follow the laws of the land, you hold drug liberilization political opinions, opinions which you never really share with your co-workers or boss. Folks, the New McCarthy *IS* here. You just haven't experienced it yet. I'm already on the black list and I know how I'm going to deal with it (you know they say a conservitive is a liberal who has been mugged; well, a revolutionary is a conservitive who has been mugged by the government... and even government reaps what it collectivly soes). You? Well, you'll just have to figure that out when you get there. Maybe the next time they stop by for names, I'll rattle off a few ./'ers. I mean if they're going to fuck with law abiding, patriotic citzens for no good reason, they might as well do it on a random sample basis, right? I'm glad you agree. And Mitnick? I consider his apparent crack of the justice system a far greater "accomplishment" than anything he did behind a keyboard... Sometimes legislators forget that when you code arbitrary rules in the states favor, those same rules and loopholes can be used against the state as well. And that's an angle the press has *COMPLETELY* missed (though I think his various lawyers, over the years, have come to respect his strategy). Oh, and if you ever find yourself confronted with bogus charges trumped up by the OSI, FBI or any other Federal TLA org., call Jennifer Granick... The woman is righteous legal warrior.
He has been locked up for five years on the _federal_ charges that he just pleaded guilty to this spring and is about to be sentenced on. The charges that were dropped concerned access to the CA DMV, and were unrelated.
Geez, don't people even read the articles anymore before posting? He has been locked up for five years on the _federal_ charges that he just pleaded guilty to this spring and is about to be sentenced on. The charges that were dropped concerned access to the CA DMV, and were unrelated.
I think we all noticed the above usage several times in the MSNBC article. I know we discussed this several weeks ago, with many people concluding that all hope was lost as far as convincing the public about the difference. But in the last few article here, I've noticed that most of the authors have bothered to make the distinction. Slashdot has a certain influence in these matters (especially with the tech sites). If we politely point out our disagreement with the interchangeable use of these terms we are bound to have a certain impact.
As to the actual difference between these two terms, I'd say cracking is a subset of hacking. Hacking being loosely defined as "doing some really cool stuff, pushing technology to the limit etc" (see jargon file for more) and cracking more specifically as "compromising security of a machine by any means." Some cracks undeniably involve a lot of hacking but not all hacking has to with cracking (obvious heh?).
One of the biggest problems is that crackers insist on calling themselves hackers. I guess its a bragging thing. "Cracker" doesn't exactly carry great connotations of respect. Ok, fine, if they do something cool we can call them hackers. But when they are breaking security they are still acting as crackers. In other words, yes Mitnick is a Hacker. But he was jailed for his cracking activities(just a question of being specific). Now if he had just stuck to kernel hacking or compiler hacking or something he wouldn't be in this mess would he?
Some people have said that this is hopeless. That the public's perceptions will never change. More specifically that the term "cracker" is synonymous with "redneck" or something. I disagree with that. The meaning of words is very fluid and changeable. As computing plays a larger role in our lives the mainstream media will need to focus on it more and more. Thus thus they will need more precise terminology to avoid confusion. If the daily activities of both Torvalds and Mitnick are called "hacking," I think we have a major source of confusion. I am willing to let them both be called hackers, but lets insist that what Mitnick was doing was cracking just one of the many hacking activities out there.
If we aggresively push this "cracking" terminology out there, I think the media (and hence the public) will latch on to it. (I guess by "we," I mean anyone who would not like to see the original meaning of the word "hacking" disappear.) New words replace old words. The media and the public are always looking for something new. Lets give them "cracking."
The only reason all cover-ups appear to fail is that you never hear about the ones that succeed.
READ THE ARTICLE BEFORE POSTING. Is that such an unreasonable request? The federal charges against him HAVE NOT been dropped. He pleaded guilty to them back in March and is about to be sentenced. This was an unrelated CA state case.
This is not the federal case. Repeat that to yourself a few times before posting again - or better yet read the article.
Thank the prosecutors for this one. For the crime of robbing all of us of our money to turn around and stick in Mitnick's pocket... WHO IS THE REAL CRIMINAL AFTER ALL? HMMMM?
Think before you flame.
-B1t THr45H3r, s0UTH3Rn H4X0rZ
And now after I looked at your link I must IMMEDIATELY APOLOGIZE TO YOU. Sorry about the blunder. You words were badly misinterpreted by me and I deserve to be yelled at. Fully support your cause. Mental illness should be treated, not punished. Sorry again. Guilty AC.
Don't brush this comment off, it'll happen. Wait and see.
Someone commits a crime... they should pay for it. The reason Mitnick has been in jail so long is because of his own stalling tactics. He's afraid to get nailed with the full conviction. Bunch of idiotic hacker lemmings... jump on the bandwagon to fight a stupid cause.
Hah.. that's kind of an odd comment, being as today is my birthday.. was it a gift to me? :) somebody else's freedom is cool enough of a gift.. even if nobody did get me a tie..
"And how can this be? For he is the
Um, no. This is tantamount to saying that banks deserve to lose the money stolen because the teller VOLUNTAIRILY GAVE IT to the gunman.
Get a fucking clue. The gov't had it's case prepared by dozens of full time professional legal staff all working in parallel. How would Mitnick REASONABLY prepare his defense if he was rushed before a judge?
Waiving rights is something the gov't routinely FORCES its citizens to do, because if they don't, they will get SCREWED. Don't believe me? Refuse to sign the next traffic ticket you get (signing waives your right to a speedy trial) and tell me how this will result in your better treatment by the legal system? The legal system is more of a criminal than Mitnick. And Mitnick will probably win more in damages from the gov't (i.e. from US the taxpayers who will actually do the paying), than Mitnick ever stole himself.
Kind of cool how some people can get really emotional instead of just posting a normal message based on facts.
And don't bother saying that what I said was exagerated. I simply posted a short, non-emotional, message on the fact that Kevin was sent to jail, without probation, for 5 years because of stupid non-violent computer crimes. (I thought a speedy trial was 6 months, and a delayed trial was at most 2 years)
Also, may I point out that one of the objectives of forums is to encourage discussion, not necessarily to evoque wisdom like yours. My comment was to give my point of view (the "comment" word is quite magical by it's definition), and what I think about obscure corners of the US justice system. But hey, I didn't even go near from what Amnistie International (human rights protection) say about the US in general in their TV commercials.
I'm just curious, are you from Texas?
Its not that he has been denied bail. They have refused to even grant him a bail hearing.
I agree that Mitnick obviously broke the law, and should be punished. However, I do feel sympathy for him because the charges were unrealistically inflated and he was not given the speedy trial that is his right. No, I don't think he should have been freed or the federal charges dropped, but I do think that 5+ years of jail time plus restitution $$ plus probation that restricts his access to computers is more than enough punishment for the crimes he committed.
First off, Mitnick isnt a cracker/hacker/whatever... he was a petty theif/Script kiddy.
What he did was wrong and he did deserve going to jail.....
But.... he did not deserve anything that he got, he did not deserve the government stomping on his civil rights at every, EVERY turn. It saddens me that my country gladly violated every one of his rights. The judges took great enjoyment in blocking justice,and corrupting our system.. I saw nothing but complete corruption in the entire judicial/FBI/NSA/whatever system from this and yet the american public and representatives just sit by saying "oh well, he was a baddie!"
but it is our fault anyways... every one of you out there caused this. did you write several letters to your congressman,senator,president, local law, state law, and others? did you make ONE phone call or donate even ONE dollar to mitnick's defense fund? did you stand up and let others know that even though he is a criminal the government is abusing this person? did you do everything in your power to help? I'll be a big fat NO... americans are very lazy (I know this.. I am one) we sit on our couches, watching tv, horrified with the wars of the world. We sit in front of our computers and "speak out" agains tyranny and opression, and do nothing but "speak out"..
this country is becoming a horrible place.. and we are to blame... 100% to blame...
Shame on you, and shame on me....
Do not look at laser with remaining good eye.
I bet you're parents would be pissed if they read that flame - they'd probably ground you to your room or something.