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The Future of GNOME
RPoet writes "LinuxWorld Today has an interview with Miguel de Icaza, in which he talks about what we can expect in the upcoming GNOME versions 1.2 and 2.0. "
He also explains what he & Nat's new GNOME company is up to and assorted other worthwhile tidbits. Not a bad interview.
"freedom of choice" and "flexability" ... bullcrap?
Do you work for the government?
Linux is only free if your time has no value. Windows is only free if you threaten to use Linux.
I think the poster was being sarcastic. You took it a bit too literally... except for the part about the root menus.. I think he was serious about that.
It's not enough to bash in heads, you've got to bash in minds. - Captain Hammer
i wish there'd be a simple standard way to do it but there isnt. a simple shell script that adds the command to your start menu on whatever wm youre runnning would be a nice touch to rpm. im willing to bet smIRC doesnt do the same if the user runs afterstep/kde.
> the MAc were about six years ago.
Umm...no. GNOME is far more advanced than both of the aforementioned interfaces were 6 years ago. In many ways GNOME is more advanced than where either of those interfaces are NOW.
--Jamin Philip Gray
jamin@DoLinux.org
Celebrate the finer things in life
Personally, I think the GNOME team should *F*O*C*U*S* a little more on what exactly it is they want to do in the future. The GNOME project has started out with little focus and brings to light the unavoidable "problem" with free software: everyone wants to throw their ideas in. Of course, I'm not saying that this is a bad idea. The GNOME team just appears to throw in every "neat" idea someone gives them (case in point: a fish applet. ARE YOU KIDDING ME? STABILITY FIRST, FISH APPLET LATER.)
The KDE team, on the other hand, comes off a lot more "clear-headed". Case in point: the CORBA issue. The KDE team got a stable product out the door first, THEN came back to add the bloated monster of CORBA to it. The GNOME team, on the other hand, said "let's put CORBA in from the get-go! Yeah! So we can show off this badass CORBA fish applet!" Christ. At least the KDE team has something they can drop their CORBA interface in, rather than turn KDE into a convoluted mess.
Aesthetics. Hmm. GNOME is (dare I say it) pretty ugly. You can dress it up with those god-awful pixmap themes all you want, but it still looks pretty wretched. KDE looks slick. Great icons. Great interface design (bearing some resemblance to Windows, but hey. You want new users to feel comfortable, right? You don't exactly want to throw them into a freaky-looking desktop with a giant foot and weird-looking Rasterman-ized icons.).
Speed. I can hardly believe there are people that claim that GNOME is faster than KDE. Cut down on the crack! With all that CORBA garbage (a fucking fish applet! That just sits there! Using CORBA!), it gets really bogged down. KDE, of course, free from CORBA (IIRC... I don't think the 1.x branch has anything to do with it) is a lot snappier, more responsive. Inevitably, someone is going to come out of the woodworks and claim that their 486DX2/66 with 8MB RAM is as snappy and responsive as ever. Go nuts. I have a P233 with 96MB RAM. I expect GNOME to run flawlessy -- start relatively quickly and overall be so fast it would be just like running a minimalistic window manager. Is it? Not close. Do I expect too much out of GNOME? Apparently I do.
Libraries. Is it just me, or does anyone else get ALARMED when "ldd " yields a list of libraries so long you have to scroll up to see the beginning? JESUS FUCKING CHRIST, GUYS. Talk about throwing in everything but the kitchen sink. And linking the esound library even to programs that don't use sound? Cool! Now... do I even need to mention the problem this brings up when trying to DOWNLOAD the GNOME sources (or even packages for that matter)? Once again, JESUS FUCKING CHRIST, GUYS. There's like 30 or so goddamn tarballs/packages you have to get! Ever thought about putting that myriad of supplemental libraries in ONE tarball? At least downloading the KDE sources isn't OVERWHELMING; it's just a few tarballs. Sweet and simple.
I'd really like to see GNOME do well -- really. It has great potential (notice "has" -- they can still clean up their act). In the future, the GNOME team should stop acting so high and mighty just because GNOME is completely free software and follow the KDE team's example -- they really seem to have it all together. Don't concern yourself with all sorts of crazy shit like CORBA-izing everything and binding every obscure language under the sun -- Keep It Simple, Shithead.
IceWM handles the panel pretty, even if it isn't compiled with gnome support. Howevever, sometimes it can go haywire, and not respect the panel. If this happens, reshape the panel in someway, like enable then disable autohide, or retract and then re-retract(or track, make it visable again, you know) with the hide buttons. However, if you have been using newer gnome releases (like 1.0+) this won't happen.
I went to try E again, it crashed, probably a fluke, but, I think I will wait a few months before I use it again.
I know I will be moderated down for this, but . . . Vincent
GMC did "work", and I think it is a GOOD sign that the GNOME developers recognized that something needed to be improved. It shows that the project is still alive and growing.
Well, I'm glad it works fo you but on all machines I have installed GNOME GMC showed all kinds of crashes and usability problems. After months of use of GNOME I was still using MC.
This is a broad accusation you just made about all of GNOME, but you're basing it on one program. Don't tell me KDE never scrapped an idea.
We are comparing apples and oranges here. My "accusation", as you call it, to GNOME is based on the fact that KDE came out first. Of course you scap an idea or two in developing a new project but my question was: do we really need anothe Desktop Manager since KDE is already out ? After evaluating both programs I realized that the answer, for me, is "NO !". All the energy poured on GNOME could have been reversed to create a free themable clone of Qt and help KDE to get more features sooner.
Ahem. KDE has a new file manager too. Konqueror, it's called. I just read about it on Slashdot. Admittedly, it's a newer story.
yes, but the old one used to work pretty well. GMC never reached the point of being usable.
actually ive experienced something like this too..although i wouldnt use the choice of words used i can understand the frustration.. :) .."everyone seems to know about" probably came from posts to the GTK mailing list (around 4 last time i checked with geocrawler..perhaps more now) .. GTK 1.2.3 (stable) doesnt support it.
I agree completely - Tip of the Day is THE most annonying feature ever invented. Couldn't they just have a help page with all of the tips on there?
:)
And besides, advanced users will fiddle around with stuff, and figure it out pretty fast - I know I always do (tip: try reading the man pages/help files
exactly his point.....you have to do it yourself if the program package didn't do it.....its ALWAYS the program packager's responsibility to notify the OS which executable runs the app.....
I have 3 letters for you:
C V S
--Jamin Philip Gray
jamin@DoLinux.org
Celebrate the finer things in life
I haven't seen their specifications, but if it's yet another "everyone must switch to Unicode to get any kind of language support (unless he is already using iso8859-1 that coincides with first 256 Unicode characters)", cyrillic and asian languages support will become a nightmare.
Contrary to the popular belief, there indeed is no God.
Geographically it's pretty much that way. The only way to get to Redmond is to go over bridges, one of which goes through another city. And that's just to get to Bellevue. Redmond is past it.
...
Ten years ago it was all cow pasture over there. Now it's LA North. Seattle is still the same as it ever was, plus we're more fun at parties.
Lake Washington is bigger than some middle eastern countries
Will in Seattle
change settings shown using the drop down menus to threaded and -1. bad comments / trolls / idiots / micro$ofties need to be marked down.
nuf sed.
Ooh. So, my son has a 333Mhz iMac. I am in such awe of you.
...
I like windows, they look good on houses
Will in Seattle
Of course, OLE is not CORBA. CORBA is useful, cross-platform, and OLE is a joke.
...
But - you knew that
Will in Seattle
And, once W2K ships (in 2002), we can expect Y2KTrolls.
Will in Seattle
I'm not saying his company won't work....but this reads a little like an Onion article or something.
that's just my $0.06 (Canadian) mind you.
Werd.
Rather, I think it is more likely that they want to keep up with KDE, which is about to release 1.1.2 (though some developers wanted this to be 1.2) and which is on the way to delivering on 2.0!
Fifth in New Hampshire? Hmmm. I think it's first in Washington state ...
Will in Seattle
I have to agree. I haven't been reading /. lately, but today I've been browsing most of the stories, and I'm thinking that ol' BG and his gang are all over the comments. Must be desperate times on the MS campus. Get out and astroturf when you can't produce good product. Hey, it's worked so far, now hasn't it?
"shop smart:shop s-mart" ash
C'mon, we dont need to boost the version number that much, surely. Whats wrong with 2.3,4,5,6 etc?
-Yarn - Rio Karma: Excellent
Nope. It should be a part of Xlib specifications.
Every GUI toolkit links with Xlib. The makers of kwm,E,etc might provide way for doing this as long as you link with their libs which is what I wanna avoid.
Honestly, I don't know if it's just Gnome, or just Enlightenment, but whoever's fault it is, the configuration of E+Gnome in RedHat is positively the worst window managment system I'v ever encountered.
Think about it. Windows start without focus. You can't click in the window to give it focus, you have to click on the title bar. if you leave the pointer over the title bar, you get a big yellow box explaining how to move the window.
Clicking on it's button on the task bar doesn't give it focus. if it's behind another window, you have to move or minimize one or the other in order to change focus.
Now, these are very simple complaints. I currently use IceWM because it (a) basicly does what i need a window management system to do, and (b) mimics the z-ordering rules OS/2 uses.
This is just like television, only you can see much further.
The menus problem is only a part of bigger issue that causes so much pain for somebody trying to write GUI apps ( and I am currently trying to do exactly that.) The issue is >> lack of standards.
The fact that Debian has a tool to do it automatically doesn't help me much cause RedHat for example doesn't offer that option and even if it did it would be completely different than what Debian does. The same goes for Suse, TurboLinux and whatever else is out there.
I'd agree with that. GMC sucks. That's why it's good they're ditching it.
Switch the . and the @ to email me.
Why do "Real Seattlites" have such contempt for Eastsiders. Isn't it all pretty much one big city anyway? Is it the same thing as in NM we always complained about Texans, it's just that we were more spread out?
I was in Seattle last weekend. You have to admit you still have more than your fair share of Starbucks/etc. *grin* If you look in the trash cans on the street they are full of just coffee cups.
Don in Bellevue. (well, I work in Everett)
(I only lived there 7 months so far, moved from New Mexico, so I'm probably not-like-them, whatever that may be.)
1) Ok.
2) Ok.
3) While i chuckled. The icons aren't useless. Come on! They link to the red hat site..so they have the red hat logo. One of them links to the Gnome site, and it has the Gnome logo. Certainly makes sense to me.
Werd.
> There is unfortunately no way to get E to play nicely with the panel.
OK, I must have an older/newer version of something on my computer because E works fine with the pager. However, when I go into the office to work, it doesn't work right at all there (clicking on a task doesn't not bring the window to the foreground). I never set anything special to make it work on my machine so I guess it's the version of Gnome I installed. The version I use at work came with Red Hat 6 so I don't know if I just haven't updated Gnome in awhile to run into this problem or if I happen to have a newer version of Gnome than comes with Red Hat 6. What I would like to know is how can I configure E to play nice with the Gnome pager in Red Hat 6? It's not impossible since it works fine on my home machine, but I didn't set anything special to make it work here.
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Free P2P Backup, Windows & Linux
"If Bill Gates had a nickel for everytime I had to reboot... oh wait, he does!"
That's a lot of nickels if you payed $90 for Windows. I calculated 1800 nickels. Or 1799.8 if you payed $89.99 (like most software retailers charge for the upgrade -- who buys the whole version?).
I like KDE, I like GNOME. They are both nice to me, and I use KDE on my notebook (Travelmate 5000, P90, 16 RAM) wich is kinda slow, and GNOME in my desktops. I like both.
I use enlighthenment sometimes, and WindowMaker others. It's a question of mood. I certainly don't use NT, because I won't pay, no way...Linux just fills all my needs in the office, at home and in the road. I take my travelmate on vacations and amuse myself coding. Yes, I'm a nerd...
But I know what I want from my OS and from my GUI...FLEXIBILITY and FREEDOM OF CHOICE.
If somebody don't like this...well is up to them.
Many friends of mine, installed Linux on their homes just because the look and fell of GNOME or KDE was new and exciting, they visually liked, more than windows9x or NT.
I fell strange watching them swithching OS, just because the GUI,(I switched OS without thinking in the GUI...), but now, in Linux world, they can switch desktops as often as they want.
This is not religion or politics, so keep the flames away, is just a choice.
My Box, my choice
Java sane choice for GUI ? ...
Definately not in 1999
Ever tried to use Swing ??? It so "blazingly fast" it even puts slowest Motif to shame.
I take your bet :)
Windows was not written in C++. Win API is C based so check your facts before you post crap like this.
(MFC is basically wrapper around Win API)
...or they might design an API that would be implemented by a library separate from Xlib and not specific to KDE, E, etc., so that an application doesn't have to be linked with some particular desktop environment's or window manager's library.
Now, it might be nice if that library became a part of Standard X, so that one could, in theory, count on it being on every system that has X; I don't see why it would matter whether the routines were in Xlib itself or in some other library that's part of Standard X.
Unfortunately, "in theory" doesn't mean "in practice"; regardless of whether those routines went into Xlib, or into a separate library, in X11R6.5, or X11R7, or whatever, that wouldn't help people who had Boring Old X11R6.4 or Boring Old X11R6.whatever-Based CDE or whatever.
Putting it into a separate library might make it slightly easier to add it to a system with an old version of X - you wouldn't have to replace Xlib, you could just add the library.
So perhaps it should become part of the X11.whatever specifications, but that doesn't mean it should necessarily become part of the Xlib specifications.
Bah, I botched the quote I saw someone had:
.05);
"If Bill Gates only had a nickel for everytime Windows crashed... oh wait, he does!"
Implying that
bill_gates_net = (number_of_all windows_crashes_throughout_time *
Forking a project counts as "NIH", doesn't it?
Being the fastest ORB in existance is like being the leper with the most fingers.
DrLunch.com The site that tells you what's for lunch!
Solution: Multiple workspaces is a possibility. Default is only one workspace. In the "Daily Tips" or whatever your equivalent is, have a tip that says "Did you know... that you can have multiple [workspaces | virtual screens | desktops]? Just [fiddle option thingamabob under menu whatsit]." So the advanced users eventually run across this feature and use it, but the beginner doesn't get confused by it.
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The real meaning of the GNU GPL:
"The Source will be with you... Always."
thee file manager, be nice to thumbnail images.
.xvpics comes to mind)
imlib may be good for this, actually id like
something where it checks for a flag on the mime
type to run a little prodeure defining how to make
the icon, the obvious use is to thumbnail
images, but someone creative may come up with
other uses too. (render a tiny imges of a 3d file
with a little logo of that program for example,
or have different color spreadsheet icons based on
the rest of the name)
to anyone who worries about slowing down the file
managers, switch statements are practically free
and the time to thumbnail an image is only used
once (again the ubiquitus
the first time and when the image changes.
seems like i may get my wish about being able to load an image into an existing gimp process...
You can get themes for Windows too and you've been able to get them since Windows 95
What, the collections of a few bitmaps, a background, some cursors, and default window colors? I think most Linux themes are more flexible than that.
For example, not a theme issue directly, but KDE will allow menus to be attached either to each application, like in Windows, or the top of the screen, like on Macs.
Ooh, a sarcasm detector. Oh, that's a real useful invention.
Excuse me sir, but you are dumb.
I'm tired of listening to this by GNOME backers because it is utterly false.
KDE already has bindings for C++, Python, and Smalltalk, and Java is coming along nicely. I'm aware of GNOME bindings for C, C++ (but the C++ bindings are piss poor), python, and guile. It's just a metter of writing the bindings if you want them.
Second, have you read the docs for GNOME's orb ORBit. It has _only_ C bindings. Mico contains bindings for 3-4 different languages if I remember correctly. Now KDE is moving towards their own ORB, tinymico, a hack to mico to reduce memory usage. I'm not sure of the bindings for it.
Basically, you are dead wrong. There is nothing about the GNOME design that makes it particularly language agnostic, and its orb is very limited. KDE is at a point of being eqaully capable to GNOME in terms of language bindings, and I'm certain, given time, it will pass it.
Well, I don't know about the design of OLE.
I for one would like to have compile time checking of types and method function signatures. The VB design gets around this pretty nicely, I admit, but if I don't want to program in their IDE, or I'm using some other kind of a language I want to connect with activeX, then it makes debugging a much bigger chore.
Post may contain irony: discontinue use if experiencing mood swings, nausea or elevated blood pressure.
A bug that everyone "seems to know about".
Did you actually report it?
"The M$ OLE system is not a bad design"
Sorry. OLE/ActiveX is not a good design for the following reasons:
1) It's too complex.
2) It has serious security problems due to the use of the variant structure which exposes the type of the information being transfered to potentially malicious interceptor programs.
3) It cannot be used to properly implement automatic snap-in conections within a compositional environment because it is not a true message passing model. A message passing model is inherently non-blocking.
4) It does not provide a symetrical male/female mechanism for connections. Complementary connectors are a must for automatic connector creation given either a pre-existing male or female connector. It would also automatically match the message type between sender and receiver. This would eliminate tons of errors.
5) It uses a reference count. This can lead to serious reliability problems if a connected object crashes or hangs.
There are other flaws but these will do.
Louis Savain
Computation is really communication.
If you look at it from a real user interface standpoint rather than a personal preference standpoint Mac OS does much better than Windows, and just about everything else out there. That doesn't mean you or anyone else has to like it of course, it just means it follows more of the rules for good UI.
Are there any really UI-oriented people working on GNOME? It seems to be it could benefit greatly from this. Trying to match the Windows interface is not a good goal for the OSS community, because frankly Windows isn't very good at UI.
Since you don't have to worry about the bottom line, the OSS community is an ideal environment to test out new ideas and do things that haven't been done before, and it would be especially great to see that happening in the UI department as Linux tries to get a hold in the desktop market. To the typical user UI is much more important than buzzword compliance. If Linux can be made easier to use than Windows, Microsoft will truly have something to fear on the desktop.
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Yes. You are right - it doesn't have to be located in Xlib as long as it is toolkit independant.
Do you have an URL where I can get more info? Thanks in advance.
Save the whales. Feed the hungry. Free the mallocs.
Instead of posting inane crap that you know nothing about, read correct information straight from the source.
GNOME Component Architecture white paper
Thanks.
You've made some valid points, but I feel some clarification is in order:
This is not to say that Gnome has no problems... I'm constantly deleting core files from my home directory. But I'm using Gnome with WindowMaker at home and at work every day, and I'm quite pleased with it. I don't suffer from any of the usability issues you've described. The problems you mention are Raster's issues to deal with, not Miguel's.
Ok, the *.desktop format is also going to become the KDE standard. Then it would pretty much become the linux standard. It won't be that hard too, since the *.desktop format is just the *.kdelink format without all of the K's. I am not sure if it is done, but I would bet CVS KDE uses it now. So the work is being done, its pretty trivial (could be done with a script, in fact here is a link to one), and now they can worry about Bonobo/CORBA/KOM/OpenParts.
Also, If you compile IceWm with gnome support, it reads gnome menu's (both for the user and the system menus).
I know I will be moderated down for this, but . . . Vincent
Yes, we know that Mathias was the founder of LyX. Then,he went off to work on KDE, and the rest of the LyX team carried on by themselves... until he showed up and pissed them all off by porting it to KDE without talking to anyone who was still working on LyX. They've since made up (afaik), but it was certainly ugly for a while.
.fvwmrc is NOT source code. It's a configuration file for fvwm that can be as simple or complex as the user wishes it to be. It contains plenty of remarks to help a new user figure out what can be done. The writer is not claiming to fix bloat or bugs in anything; he is simply expressing an understandable preference for a much smaller, simpler and more streamlined window manager as a way to *avoid* bloat and bugs in other WM's.
Hope this helps!
**>>BELCH
I don't know if Miguel or anyone that matters will ever read this but here's a suggestion:
Put the smack down on Gnome developers that fail to include "start menu" things with their distros. If rpm doesn't facilitate this intelligently then EXTEND the spec for Gnome apps!
License: By reading this you are agreeing that you agree with me.
Which is the entire point of the OLE-like stuff in question! It lets you use a separate spreadsheet, word processor, graphics program, etc, and still combine different things in one document rather than forcing you to use one giant app that does everything to make documents containing different types of data.
It's not quite on the level of using piping to tie together tiny apps, but such tricks are hard to pull with GUIs.
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I don't know why everyone insists that writing a GUI in C is insane. It's not. Writing a GUI with GTK+ in C is pretty darn pleasant, actually. If you want _unpleasant_, I'm sure we can dredge up some examples.
And it's nice to write the GUI in the same language you write everything else... GUI builders can't handle all your gui code unless you're just doing a static form. If you are dynamic form or something else, you'll always need to write code.
I was using the latest one and it had this problem. I had to downgrade to fix this.
The part that is not obvious is why people have to bitch about something they don't even want to use. As the previous poster said, you don't have to use it, so why are you bitching about it?
It's not enough to bash in heads, you've got to bash in minds. - Captain Hammer
If it will become one then great ! ...
Another issue resolved
I like gnome, but i'm not very concerned with the panel or the file manager. I'm looking forward to Gzilla and their office suite.
If only someone could construct a new interface for graphical applications. My favorite at present is WindowMaker as it is relatively different from the rest (please no flames about how it too is a clone of next-step fame)
What is on Gnome's side is that gtk seems to be relatively common. Anyone have any stats on the number of applications in gtk, qt, and others? Num of coders?
Anyone know what WindowManager will be gnomes next favorite now that enlightenment is estranged?
I can't wait to see what the next version of enlightenment contains, as I recall mention of it too having greater functionality
Actually, I like what Gnome is doing, release early and often, just like Linux.:)
If you find bug(s), please report them. As with any opensource project, more people find bugs the better.
Reusing KOM/OpenParts would not have been very practical since last time I looked, there is no C binding for KDE, maybe I'm wrong.
As for "vapour stunt," you must not use mc. Anyhow, attacking opensource developer is wrong since if you don't like what they do, don't use it.
OK, before calling me a moron perhaps you should check your facts.
Either ORBIT only supports C, or the core GNOME docs are horrible (which I'd consider at least as bad).
From the GNOME FAQ found directly off of www.gnome.org:
ORBit is intended to be multilingual; ILU proves that this is possible. Right now it only supports C, but in the future it will support other languages. (Really, we mean it! It is a very, very new project right now, which is the only reason it is C only.)
If GNOME's own docs are right, ORBit only supports C, and that's all there is to say about that.
As I said, ALL gnome apps should be using a *.desktop file for putting a shortcut on the foot menu. All gnome apps that I get do this. If it doesn't it is not a real gnome app. However, the gnome developers aren't the rulers of some world order, so they can't MAKE anybody do this. The only thing they should do is don't provide a link on the gnome website to an app that doesn't install a *.desktop file.
Could you tell me what you mean by no standard. It seems about as good as a standard as you can get, considering there is no law on breaking them.
I know I will be moderated down for this, but . . . Vincent
Isn't Gnumeric the only GNOME app of the ones you mention? Or have ABIWord and GIMP switched from pure GTK+ lately?
I suspect that all these people whining about memory usage could use a quick refresher in how memory works in UNIX. This goes for the people who say "X SUCKS because it uses 25 megs of RAM!" when they have a 16 meg TNT card in their computer, too. Newsflash #1: the X server mmaps the video buffer into its address space! (For the less clueful out there, this means subtract your video ram from the memory usage reported by the X server). Newsflash #2: Libraries are also mmaped into the address space! (So is the executable for that matter).
Ok, so all these libraries are getting counted multiple times, they still all add up, you say? UNIX demand pages executables and libraries into memory, so big, featureful libraries are good, since you only pay for the parts you use! (well, in 4kb chunks on intel, but you can't have everything).
This should all be put in a "troll-FAQ" somewhere; I'm tired of seeing the same stupid trolls over and over again. Yes, X, GNOME, and KDE all have flaws, some of them large, but NONE are insurmountable, and the progress in all these areas (Have you seen XFree 3.9 yet?) has been amazingly rapid.
Bonobo (Pan Paniscus) or pigmy chimp, endangered species. Homosapien's nearest cousin in primate. They are similar to human in sex behavior, who fscks alot among them, practicing incest, poligamy, everything. everyday is mating day. no season no shit.
just for info
Their JVM kicks your ass.
The copper bosses killed you, Joe. 'I never died', said he.
> Tell me why the reverse NIH argument couldn't be made against KDE's object model?
Well, because KDE's object model was started *before* baboon (or bonobo or however its called today)?
I wrote a C binding for Qt. Extending it to KDE was trivial (just edit the headers into a simpler class description format for a script that actually did the binding).
How trivial? Well wrapping Qt, including writing the script mentioned above took a week, and I did it just to win a USENET argument.
Now, why did this binding never evolve further? The interest in C bindings for KDE and Qt seems to be limited to people that don't code, for the most part.
You are right about Windows but I can't agree with Mac - it is ugly and hardly functional - at least for me.
This seems to come up every time GNOME or KDE is mentioned. Yes, Windows already has a tried and true desktop which is easier to use for some people (since GUI ease-of-use is a very personal thing, some like one GUI and other like another. Choice is good!). And Linux is only reaching the stage of having a useful desktop system (KDE is already there, and GNOME is getting there rapidly as well), so it can't be called "tried and true" yet. But -- Linux isn't a "real" operating system? How's that again? It boots up my computer and runs all my programs, delivers my E-mail, etc. If that's not a real operating system, I don't know what is. And in terms of the "catch-up", you can just as easily (more easily, IMO) argue that Windows is playing "catch-up" to UNIX in all areas *but* the GUI. Networking and communications (E-mail, WWW, FTP, newsgroups) and security are just some of the areas that UNIX has long been good at and in which Windows is just playing "catch-up". (And in security particularly, Windows still has a long way to go).
And why not use Windows? Well, there's really no reason not to, if it's the right tool for the job. See, I'm neutral in the OS holy wars -- I don't care what you use, and I'll use the right tool for me. I don't use Windows because Linux does everything I need, has higher quality in many areas, and costs me $89 less than Windows (a very important consideration on a college student's budget!). Also, I happen to not like Microsoft's monopolistic practices, so I guess I'm not all that neutral. But if a Microsoft product is the right tool for the job, I'll use it.
Sorry. You'll get no flames from me.
"Hey! You're one of those condescending UNIX users!"
"Here's a nickel, kid. Go buy yourself a real operating system."
- Stolen from Dilbert (I think) and changed a little
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The real meaning of the GNU GPL:
"The Source will be with you... Always."
You can't just ask that question and drop it! Dammit! I want to know how it is.
:)
So, how is it?
Corndog
What's the point of all this bragging about ActiveX-like capabilities when there are missing major parts like for example way to automatically add something to start menu. This is all hogwash, it only looks half-decent on the surface, underneath there is nothing to support that. Everything has to be done manually ( KDE is not perfect, but much better in this regard)
Go grab your copy of Inside Windows NT, and actually read it (it actually isn't a bad book). The kernel-GUI relationship is very similar to the way it always has been in UNIX. There are a few difference, NT integrates GDI at a very low level, which allows for a bit faster of drawing to the screen. This is a good thing. The GGI project's KGI does a similar thing, but probably won't find its way into the linux kernel for a while, if ever. Some core linux deveopers don't agree with the assertation that having your video drivers in kernel space is a good thing.
As for the GUI, under windows explorer.exe and friends, that's just as abstracted from the core OS as KDE or GNOME or $WM is from the core UNIX OS. The Win32 subsystem runs above kernel space in NT just as X runs above kernel space in UNIX. Now, under NT if the Win32 subsystem dies, the kernel dies. This is because it is assumed without the Win32 subsystem your machine is worthless. This is a bad idea, IMHO. Furthermore, it is quite possible to replace your GUI (explorer.exe) with something else. Lightstep comes to mind as an alternative. You can also use things like zsh (which I do on my work machine a lot).
The primary difference in terms of GUIs is that UNIX gives you a lot more freedom, flexibility, and customizability than Windows NT does, plus problems up in the Graphical Engine section (X or Win32 layer) are less likely (it still not fool-proof) to take down the machine under UNIX.
Have you heard of Cygnus Solutions? This sounds very much like them when they started out. Granted, they started working on gcc, gdb, binutils and such, but it sounds like the same concept. I think what they are doing is a damn good idea, and it should help progress it quickly.
Besides that, I personally think it looks good, works well, and is going to be around for a while. Lots of new applications are coming out every day that are designed to integrated with gnome from the ground up.
Just my $.02.
Please don't confuse me with the Windows advocate who replied to my message. I was comparing GNOME with KDE, not with Windows; Windows makes me retch.
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I think you are right. Lack of standard GUI i hurting Linux position as a workstation terribly.
But , try to mention that - you will get tons of post of people defending "freedom of choice","fexibility" and all that bullcrap.
It's just that you never hear about these Mac-like windowmanagers in the press because they're all getting excited about a Windows-like desktop system. But they're out there.
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The real meaning of the GNU GPL:
"The Source will be with you... Always."
Gee, I guess the Micro-Trolls are out in force today, huh? Is this the best that the anti-Linux task force can muster.
:P
I fart in your general direction.
One of the things I like best about a separate GUI is that if an app hangs, I can kill X and restart it in a few seconds rather than have to reboot the whole OS, like when Word locks up twice a day here at work.
"If Bill Gates had a nickel for everytime I had to reboot... oh wait, he does!"
No. Mac interface is hardly usable - if you wanna look at the state of the art look at Windows. Seriously.
Yup, and you are tied to the GUI that you get shipped with it. With X you can run any window manager that you damn well please, and there are lots of them. You can configure the desktop the way YOU want it, rather than the way that someone else told you to like. I would say that the inferiority lies in something that is unchangable. You don't even have to run X/desktop/GUI/whatever with linux, thereby giving you a system that also takes less resources if you don't need graphics. Linux will always be inferior as it doesn't come with a GUI as standard and is only as an add on. We moved away from a separate GUI shell when we ditched Win3.1. I suggest you lot should do the same or be left in the past Oh yeah, I forgot that MS products are the wave of the future. :)0
They probabably wouldn't be working on KDE anyway, unless it was bassed on C. I guess you could say this about a lot of things. I think about all of the stuff on the freshmeat and think "How about a good 3d editor, word processor, web browser, e-mail client, whatever instead of all of this crap". But I guess that crap (irc clients, gui clients to stuff I never heard of, etc) is usefull to somebody.
I know I will be moderated down for this, but . . . Vincent
Nah, it's because you're a bunch of republicans. Alright, check that, it's not because you're republicans, it's just that voting republican is one of the symptoms of whatever disease it is the eastside's got.
"HORSE."
-Flaming Carrot
Now, I am new to the Linux Community, and I can understand that a lot of us don't like MS, one of the reasons I uninstalled windows. But, since when did everyone here start the antimicrsosoft campaign? so many people here have said "if yuo don't like it, don't use it. don't bitch about it." So why does MS get treated differently? I'm looking for good information here, and all I seem to be able to find anywhere is that Linux is better than Windows, and that someday, linux will kick windows out of the desktop market, and that "If Linux can be made easier to use than Windows, Microsoft will truly have something to fear on the desktop."
Why are we trying ot make MS fearful? why not just put out a better product, and advertise it? If linux is better, then MS already has something to fear. If not, then lets stop talking about this damn issue and make it better!
Additionally... I would advise that you reserve judgement on KDE 2.0's performance until it's actually released.... instead of rough benchmarking mid-development code.
> We even support Java and we're the fastest performer with Java.
Well, according to the courts as well as the spec MS does not support Java. Like it or not, Sun owns the trademark on Java so if they say an implementation must adhere to a certain standard to be called Java then they are right. Taking away standard core functionality (e.g., RMI and JNI) and trying to claim that your product is still compatible is just bogus.
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Free P2P Backup, Windows & Linux
GNOME is pretty primitive is some ways, and not the best designed piece of software I'll grant you. Gnumeric is a pretty nice spreadsheet, but that's about all I see of great value in GNOME (of course the fact it dumps core regularly on my machine doesn't help).
KDE is light years more advanced IMHO.
What an odd statement.
... All the energy poured on Linux could have been reversed to create more Windows applications and help Windows to get more features sooner."
"We are comparing apples and oranges here. My 'accusation', as you call it, to Linux is based on the fact that Windows came out first. Of course you scrap an idea or two in developing a new project, but my question was: do we really need another desktop operating system since Windows is already out?
If you can point out why the above is wrong, chances are, you'll have a jump start of figuring out why we need *BOTH* KDE and GNOME.
FLAMEBAIT! :) If only I had mod-points.
Werd.
I now hear talk about a "new" file manager, one that uses GNOME VFS. What's the reasoning behind the switch? Why not continue with GMC? Does anyone know?
GMC is not very extensible, very powerful, very stable, or very usable. It was originally developed just to get something out of the door quickly, I think... and then they started thinking about it, and decided that they could do MUCH better.
I agree. But what is missing is uniform GUI with uniform interface to accessing start menu ( or whatever it is there.)
This bug(#875) has been reported for months, before the 1.0 release in fact. Yet, after all of the updates, it is still around.
No, I can't fix it myself, becuase I have no idea what is wrong. I looked at the code before, and it wasn't obvious. It would be best for the authors of GMC (or maybe it's the panels fault) to fix it.
I know I will be moderated down for this, but . . . Vincent
Reading the posts above just about everyone is offtopic. Not one post about what people think about the future of GNOME. It's either KDE people who think they are gods gift to the world. Windows people who don't know any thing about linux anyway or just plain old trolls.
It has been statistically shown that helmets increase the risk of head injury.
But you still can get software for Windows that will radically change look and feel of your desktop. The crucial difference is that when you do it on linux you have to reconfigure all the menus, everything manually and on Windows it will automatically be there ( thanks to APIs that allow programmers to access this stuff)
For a start, the info file format is no more proprietary than HTML (it is basically a subset of TeX with a macro package). And as for why they did not use HTML, probably because the web did not exist (or was not as popular) back then.
Info was a replacement for man pages (which do not have indexes, cross references, etc). Not the web.
The C bindings are the most mature. There are C++ bindings in development. Take a look at the ORBit-C++ module in the GNOME CVS tree (http://cvs.gnome.org/lxr/ is your friend). For information about the other bindings, the orbit mailing list is probably the best place to ask.
I don't think it's because the Windows gui is so user-friendly (OS/2's and BeOS' both whip it's ass!) It's simply because the people making the decisions have no imagination or design sense whatsoever. That's why I use Windowmaker on Linux and CDE on Solaris.......although I'm starting to look seriously at XFce (http://www.xfce.org) for Linux.
But that flexibility comes at the step price !
You change your WM on Linux - you are in for a couple hours of recreating your menu entries and stuff to accomodate all your apps...
This is what sucks about X way of doing things.
You're wrong.
You are trolling. (unintentionally?)
Why is the default setup for E in RH "incorrect"?! It's just different from how you want to use it. Personally, it's my experience that you can't switch a Windows user over to Linux without starting the config out the way RH has. My fiance for example couldn't stand (at first) to have windows automatically focus when she moved her pointer over them....she was used to clicking on title bars to get focus, and didn't mind it. Before you flame Red Hat for shipping a faulty product think a bit.
Werd.
windows' GUI.. ugh!
I personally _love_ afterstep (although right now I run KDE..). Windows' GUI isn't so userfriendly, it's just that large numbers of people have been working with Windows for so long that they're used to the GUI. For pete's sake, if you'd been working with Blackbox, Afterstep, WindowMaker, etc, for all of your "computing life," you'd say it/they were userfriendly too! It's a matter of what you like, and how bad you're willing to get used to it, and how much you actually use whatever it is you're using so that you get more and more acquainted with it.
Insert mind here.
That's not true, as long as they don't use any code
that is copyrighted by someone else, or violate any
trademarks or patents, they can use a system that is
similar to OLE. They could even implement their own
version of OLE and make it compatible with Windows
programs running under Wine without violating any laws.
Nascantur in Admiratione. (Let them be born in Wonder)
Ok, here we go..
Gnome is not a Window Manager. (And looks NOTHING like Windows, I'm sorry.. Ok, it has buttons.. Anything with buttons = Win32??)
KDE is not a Window Manager.. (By default a little more simular, but still a HUGE difference)
You can run WindowMaker with Gnome OR KDE.. Blackbox and others as well..
PLEASE look before you leap.. Look at themes.org for examples of configurations that look NOTHING like the Win32 GUI..
-- I'm the root of all that's evil, but you can call me cookie..
People. Use Debian. It can add menu items for you. Easily.
Sheesh.
Werd.
Please, goto your NT box, and kill explorer, and tell me what you see.. Wow, it's still running, but with nothing on the screen.. It then immediatly RElaunches explorer..
Explorer is what provides the GUI.. As a matter of fact, you can replace explorer with something like Litestep, and have the same functionality, aka, another 'Window Manager' beside's explorer..
-- I'm the root of all that's evil, but you can call me cookie..
You're saying that the advantage of windows over linux is that you don't need to configure your window manager (explorer.exe)
That would be because Microsoft only provides 1. If you'd prefer, you can just stick with the one default WM in linux. THen you never have to reconfigure. Just close your eyes and pretend you don't have choices if that's what you prefer.
You don't understand. It is not how many WM Microsoft provides, it is ability to uniformly access menu entries and things like that. There is no such option on Linux.
As a few people have pointed out, debian does offer that in a program called Menu.
I've never used it myself, but now that i know it exists, i'm going to look into it.
Yeah. It can, I have heard that one. But you know what ? I would rather do it manually than be forced to used that definition of user unfreindlines they use for package managment ...
This was true a couple of years ago when I started using linux.
It is not true with the two wms I use most frequently, kwm (aka the window manager of KDE) and Windowmaker. In windowmaker you start and app and you drop the produced icon somewhere. In KDE you create shortcuts just like the Mac and Windows, or even drop that icon on your K-Menu.
These fetures are cool and damn useful. However, you miss the point. The point is sure I have to do some configuration if I want to customize my desktop. You have to do the same thing under Windows, MacOS, NeXTstep, BeOS, OS/2, ect. The difference is that I get to choose which GUI best fits my needs instead of MS or Apple, or Redhat or $VENDOR choosing for me.
In short, yes, a bit of configuration is necessary if I switch my windowmanager, but that's an extra option I have that I wouldn't have with other systems. If I choose one windowmanager and stick with it, I have no more configuration to do than I would under a lot of other systems. Finally, if you really don't like having a choice, you can just stick with whatever the default WM for the system is.
Simply put, there are no disadvantages of this system over the way windows' users aproach their GUI.
I haven't looked at the CVS versions for a LONG time, but I can only hope that when 2.0 comes out, it'll be stable..
The more they rush, the worse they make Gnome look..
-- I'm the root of all that's evil, but you can call me cookie..
I HIGHLY recommend it for people stuck using windows at work who wish they could use Linux. it may still be windows, but at least it looks nice. :) You can get Litestep HERE. Try it...you'll thank me. :)
Werd.
I now hear talk about a "new" file manager, one that uses GNOME VFS. What's the reasoning behind the switch? Why not continue with GMC? Does anyone know?
BTW, I have to respond to all the "GNOME sucks as a desktop flamebait". GNOME stands for "GNU Network Object Model Environment". The innovations are largely to provide GNU-licensed protocols for object sharing between GUI applications. GNOME IS NOT A GUI, GTK+ IS THE GUI GNOME USES! GNOME does come with some basic applications that make a fairly basal desktop. For the most part, all you see when you start GNOME is a little panel and some icons. If that's how you judge GNOME, then you're judging the book by the cover.
This sort of thing has cropped up before. And it has always been due to human error.
--
This sort of thing has cropped up before. And it has always been due to human error.
HAL9000
There are no specs to extend, it's the fault of the packagers for not putting in the start menu. For example, take a look at my SmIRC (you can find it on freshmeat). If you install the RPMs, you'll have SmIRC added to both the Gnome start menu, or the fvwm2/AnotherLevel menu, if you're running those window managers. It's just sloppy packaging, that's all.
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Moreover, as a developer, I can't see myself wanting to develop for a desktop environment written in C, when I can develop for one that's written in C++. I don't think C has much of a future for the development of distributed, component-based applications.
--
I've been a strong advocate for GNOME since version 0.3. I knew about KDE but I decided to "suffer" a little in order to promote real free software. Then I talked with some of the folks of KDE at the last LWCE and decided to give KDE a try. KDE rocks. These guys not only did a GUI that works today but they spent a good deal of time and effort in making everything consistent and simply a pleasure to use. I agree, it looks a little too Windowish but this can be fixed easily with both KDE 2.0 and themes or using E for the WM (the development version has KDE support). If the widget set was the big problem that caused the creation of a new project, GNOME, I'm disappointed in that decision. It would have been much faster and simpler to write a free version of Qt, in other words help the Harmony project, instead of trying to reinvent the wheel. The current version of GNOME is far from being complete or even comparable with KDE. The file manager never worked and now the GNOME team decided to rewrite completely. Not a good sign. Excuse me but I believed that one of the strong points of of OSS was to promote code reuse, with GNOME we keep rewriting code over and over. Since KDE is an Open Source project, if you don't like something about it just grab the code and change it. Last time I checked the KDE folks where more than happy to see more people helping them and they showed good attitude and realist goals.
Take care,
--Paolo
Does it seem like there's much more NT/Win trolls in here than usual? What gives?
We need a new name for these posters. My suggestions: wintrolls.
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GNOME could be better, it's only major flaw is depending on ORBit, which is the major bottleneck of the environment.
If they were able to get ORBit to actually support multiple threads, I think GNOME could actually be dangerous.
In the mean time, I'll stick to KDE.
Evidently you have decided that we must all cater to the lowest common denominator. Our schools do it, newspapers, television, I refuse to lower myself down to using one screen just because someone else can't comprehend it. One size does not fit all. If you're going to use that argument, Don't read books, some people are illiterate! Don't use the web, some people don't understand!
The average user needs to have us help them configure things. I'm not saying my grandmother should run GNU/Linux, she should use what ever is easy to use and works. But she should have the choice. My mechanic fixes my car, I fix their network so they can order parts. Do what you do best and use what works best for you.
One Last Thing, in KDE you can turn the virtual desktops off.
Yeah, right.
ROTFL
Will in Seattle
What X is lacking is an API to interface with WM to do things like adding, replacing menu items etc...
This API would give programmer a chance to implement many things automaticaly. There is really no reason why these things are left solely to the user. It is computer after all, it can easily handle issues like that.
I am disappointed to see the high amount of flames and trolls taking place. If people actually take the time to read about what Gnome is doing with CORBA, XML, and bonobo. People are immediately assuming that bonobo and CORBA are going to bring on more bloat, but the idea behind these concepts is to reduce bloat and increase power. I have been following Gnome development fairly carefully, and I am very impressed with what they are coming up with. They are making great effort to implement everything correctly and elegantly. They are redoing their file manager to make it more powerful, faster, and more embeddable. Their new mailer is going to be truly next-generation. Their gnome-workshop will include the Gimp and Gnumeric, which are both already very advanced applications, as well as AbiWord, which is developing nicely. They are also working with the LyX people to do a *correct* gnome port, rather than how the KDE people did it; they will be using the LyX gui abstraction code to do things cleanly. Gnome is an extremely nice environment, and it is very configurable. Gnome 1.2 and Gnome 2.0 will be very impressive products, and they will be far more streamlined and faster than the previous generation. Please withold your flames until you actually research what GNOME is up to.
I mean, they take about 5 minutes ordering their lattes. Real Seattleites know their barristas and will say "Yup" in response to the question: "You want your regular, Jim?".
Besides, we drink Chai or tea in the real Seattle nowadays.
Will in Seattle
I think they've been given marching orders again. After their dismal failures in the InfoWorld fora, they've decided slashdot is the enemy.
Hey, guys, lighten up. Go to HempFest or something and get a life.
Will in Seattle
Uhhh..
I saw about 15 posts from you saying that linux isn't worth it because the menus dont' get added automatically.
Someone tells you that you can add them automatically, and you say that you'd rather do it manually than use the tool that is provided?
I always wonder why people like you bother talking. You just want to complain about problems. You ignore any possible solutions, and then just go on doing what you normally do.
You're not interested in learning anything, just convincing yourself that your way is the right way.
We're not excited. You are.
So, buy any Red Hat shares lately?
Will in Seattle
I agree, trying to add OLE gigo would be a waste. Better off getting decent CORBA implementations anyways - more bang for the buck and better able to integrate into the enterprise.
And don't even get me started about OLE+ - what a turkey.
Will in Seattle
Which, sad to say also applies to Windows 2000.
...
Actually, I should say, it's not that it hasn't been tested, it's just that noone did anything to fix the problems found in the tests, because "they were not cosmetically significant".
I remember the old days with MSFT and how, if it was a bug, you just coded to create an error message to pass certification, not actually fix the code
Will in Seattle
I like fvwm as well, but it too has bugs. Sometimes when I place new windows on my screen, it changes to another virtual desktop. And it is annoying that Netscapes find dialog does not get focus automatically.
No comment has been scored down, not even obvious trolls. Come on, at least get the ones in all caps.
I know I will be moderated down for this, but . . . Vincent
I submitted this story about the KDE interview. Let's see what Slashdot does (bets anyone)?.
No *you* don't understand. Of *course* you can uniformly access menu entries under NT for *all* of the WM because it only provides 1.
You can simulate this effect under linux by only using 1 WM. You will find that all your menus are uniform.
Duh.
Sheesh, everyone on slashdot knows who "owns" slashdot. And it's not Red Hat. I should know, since I now "own" Red Hat and it isn't one of the Red Hat assets.
Nice try. Cafeteria shut down in Redmond, troll?
Will in Seattle
Well, it depends on what you do. For your needs, perhaps. For me, I'm still undecided between KDE and GNOME. I look forward to the next versions of both.
Will in Seattle
The first poster was a troll.
E is good.
love the sig.
This is not all that window managers do.. They do Window Managment.. What to do with a window when I minimize it is a perfect example.. That's why it's called a Window MANAGER.. Notice the manager part in there?
-- I'm the root of all that's evil, but you can call me cookie..
Well, this wasn't my original point, but since you've jumped on it..
You can customize pictures and colors with it.. Please, show me how I can make my Win32 machine look like a Mac.. And change the position/behavior or my start button..
Simply put, you can't without using a hack and replacing explorer..
Oh, and while your at it, I'd like my close window button on the window border to be in the lower right hand corner.. Can you please send me the theme where I can do that?
(PPst, you can't..)
-- I'm the root of all that's evil, but you can call me cookie..
Good name. You will be written up in the FAQ as the originator of the phrase. Sadly, in ten years, noone will remember what it means.
;-)
Will in Seattle
They need to be able to change event sounds and themes in ONE place.
Agree but that doesn't require a specialized WM. If KDE and GNOME have a standard way of communicating something like: "Hey, I'm changing theme, I'll use the "XYZ" theme. Please synchronize". We, of course, need a standard (XML based ?) "Theme Description Format" but that's doable. Even in the case of synchronizing WMs people don't want to write the same theme for the Desktop Manager and the Window Manager. Still, this looks more interesting and clean to me that writing a dedicated WM. It also gives more freedom to the power user to select the WM, once all the WMs conform to the API.
--Paolo
I'd assumed that the reason that the desktop icons had the RedHat logo on them was that they were ``links'' back to web pages on www.redhat.com and it made sense to me. If you don't like that icon... change it.
I doubt that that particular generalization is valid. I found the default settings OK but not quite to my liking (perhaps a little annoying). Big deal. Change 'em. I found the default settings for CDE on DEC UNIX and HP/UX fairly execrable as well (hey, I'm not a big CDE fan but it's better than nothing; certaintly better than the Win95 laptop I have to use to read the company cc:mail). Again, big deal. Change 'em.
Geez. Can't find anything more important to whine about than the default icons? You GUI whiners slay me. ``[insert-despised-vendor-name here], their distribution blows chow because it come out of the box exactly the way I like it.'' Puhleez.
CUR ALLOC 20195.....5804M
When are people going to stop being stupid?
You are complaining GNOME has bugs, but then you start talking about GTK widgets.
Sounds like you should be talking to the GTK people to get those fixed.
(Oh yeah, and put your GtkText widget inside a ScrolledWindow widget. You should find it now works properly).
Chris "Ng" Jones
cmsj@tenshu.net
www.tenshu.net
It might be good standard for GNOME but I happened to run KDE on one box and IceWM on another.
It doesn't do me much good that GNOME apps have some sort of internall standard , does it ?