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iBook boots Linux
robat writes "
You might be interested in the fact that an iBook booted Linux.
" Another machine brought into the fold. The first set of patches with a binary kernel are online already.
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> There is a persistent story that MacOSX Server 1.2 will have G4 support (hence Altivec? - one would assume it means that - ),
No. It means that it will boot on G4. (Which would be a good thing for a start)
> and that 1.2 will be released in November (this year).
Apple have now a long tradition of delaying (or killing) releases of NeXT derived work (always for non technical reasons [Oh, we have to deal with Adobe for the permission to use DPS. Oh, ORACLE don't want us to bundle its client libraries, Oh, we have commited on Rhapsody/Intel, but we won't release it,...])
AFAIK, C AltiVec support is not transparent (ie you cannot compile with an enhanced version of egcs and get Altivec boost, like you had when adding a hardware mathematical co-processor in the past). C supports floating point natively (ie: floating point is part of the langage), but not array-math. You have to call C functions to perform altivec duties (something like vector_add( v0, v1, n ) to add v0 and v1) [Sure, you could dream of a compiler that would recognize idioms like 'for (i=0;i!=n;i++) v0[i]+=v1[i];' but this is just a dream.]
AltiVec^H^H^H^H^H^H^H VelocityEngine support could be transparent for someone that uses FORTRAN, or that uses vector-math libraries which could be ported to AltiVec.
Anyway, the most efficent way to get an AltiVec enabled compiler is to grab the document that describe AltiVec programming, and implement the C functions with assembly glue. There is no need to change the compiler.
Cheers,
--fred
It really is amazing to me, how many people are content to just sound off with "MACS SUCK!" before they think. Many Information Systems personnel at Walt Disney World have asked about my G3/400 laptop, "Why did you get a Mac?" "Why couldn't you get a better laptop?", as well as other interrogations against my 3 iMacs, or my B&W G3/400. They might have a chance at being right if I ran MacOS on them, after all -- MacOS is not my idea of a wonderful operating system either. But I do in fact run OSX and/or Linux on all of them. PPC is just another architecture, no more, no less, and some of us just prefer it to Intel. We don't like Apple any more than you do, because they screw us over. But for now, they're the prime vendor of PPC hardware. But to continually condemn Apple machines because of their maker reeks of the same logic that makes Microsofties cling to their OS religiously. We's all Linux brothers! Free yo' mind!
How much code that would benefit from a vector processor is there in an OS anyway?
Wasn't AltiVec supposed to include instructions that were useful to servers, like networking stuff? I remember this being one of the design goals anyway.
I searched for "iBook" and found this site that appears to be the best site for iBooks on the web. iBook Zone is what it's called.
NOTHING ran on it until yesterday. dont let those also-rans make you think they invented linux. everyone knows Al Gore did.
Now all they need is Accelerated X and it would be a sweet linux laptop
Can you point me in the direction of a web site with a final price of a laptop that does this?
Also, please make sure it has wireless networking built into it also.
So to recap, what 'x86 hardware has an active matrix display, built in USB, ethernet, wireless ethernet, processor in the order of like a 233 MHZ PII or PIII (do they have PIII laptops yet?).....all for around $1600.
Can you give me the web site please? Thanks much....
see
this page for possible linux soutions
Hey folks, don't feed the troll. Even if the troll can't even WRITE an effective troll message.
It's about as stupid as someone trolling: "Linux doesn't run any programs or run on Intel based computers."
Everyone knows iMacs run Photoshop and Quark, so therefore your troll is stupid.
But I like what that other guy called you, a Beavis. That pretty much fits.
Yep, /. is filled with people who have nothing better to than whack off while posting about how much they hate _____ (Fill this space with either: Microsoft, Apple, or anything related to computers that doesnt have an obese penguin for a mascot)
Damn straight, down with pathetic shit that's only justification is open source. It belongs in the crapper with other comp shit that justified itself by being against microsoft (ie. Apple, or Netscape, good god Netscape was hilarious)
the truth is, most graphic designers aren't propeller heads. sure, they'd be ecstatic to have a machine that never crashes, but they aren't going to learn 5 new programs (plus an OS) to do it. they have to know they can produce the same stuff without major production headaches (and try hiring a temp who knows unix) and have a file that will output and print to film/plate with at least as good results as the mac does. a very tall order.
IF a program like Adobe's InDesign really developed for Linux (and they could, they manage a nice version of FrameMaker for unix), AND the program turns out to be the Quark killer they say, then linux MIGHT have a fighting chance IF other supporting apps (photoshop, illustrator/freehand) also migrate. It's a uphill battle...
last time i checked netbsd wasnt running on these or any uma macs, take ya flamebait somewhere else bah :P
Sony *may* have designed the internal components of the Powerbook... However, an Apple employee designed the early powerbooks cases and ended up quitting Apple and going to work for Dell. No surprise that the Dell laptops look great ;)
Is this neccesarily flamebait? Isn't OS X going to be based on a *BSD?
I happen to like my iBook. Calling it a "toilet" is pretty stupid coming from someone that probably doesn't even own one. Speaking of stupid...getting excited about running a comand line interface on a system that delivered the GUI to the masses is hardly what I'd call progress.
First off, it is, second off, its something to do. Its fun. Install Win on Legos and I'll convert.
First off, I actually got my hands on an iBook on a loan from Apple at my company. It does look like a Japanese High-Tech Toliet especially the blueberry one. Its wild and funky on the outside and built like a tank on the inside. Its heavy (6.6 pounds) and rugged (kevlar-like) -- perfect for hardcore travel. I used it for two weekends before I gave it back to my editor. It really turned heads in NYC when I walked the streets with it using its built in handle. Its a Notebook Super Model -- my curvy Apple PowerBook G3/400 is plain in comparison. A very cool machine w/ many cool hardware features like breathing and its yo-yo style power "brick"! My only gripe was the 32 meg of RAM. It really needs to be 64 meg. We are supposed to get an AirPort on loan soon w/ additional RAM. Wireless IRC sessions on the balacony at work while catching the nic buzz a commeth!
Not only can/will the iBook be able to boot a native flavor of PPC Linux, but it is currently able to boot DOS & Windows plus nearly any x86 distro of Linux. There are many pentium emulator proggies out there for the MacOS which the iBook runs it's full form. Ranging in price from $25 to $189. With the Connectix Virtual PC product, I was able to boot Red Hat Linux 6.0 after a net install on my PowerBook G3/400 (World's Fastest Consumer Notebook). I even made a dual boot Windows 98 and RH 6.0 hard drive image.
Now if Mac hardware sucks according to many x86-/.-ers and Mac hardware can emulate x86 hardware then it is logical to say, "Macs just suck less than what you have."
I like my blinders on and my source closed. - Some guy named Bill
If you want to know about how an OS interfaces with apple hardware, go download Darwin. Everything you could possibly want to know about this is in there, it's an open source example of how to write an OS for the mac. What more do you want?
And the "most creative" people are out on the sidewalk selling their sand candles.
Come on, now. Let's get beyond the hippy myths.
I care what my computer looks like. Same as I care about what my car looks like. Same with a bicycle, house, blender, etc. I wouldn't buy a chrome toaster oven when my blender, and cofee maker are black. I'd get black. If I'm gonna spend money on something, I dunno about you...but I'd like to be happy with my purchase on more than one level. Many years ago architects paid attention to detail. They built gargoyles and elaborate carvings into buildings. By YOUR standards, every building might as wel be a square box since its only purpose is to hold workers.
Apple made it a bit larger and heavier than they had to to make it durable. The intended market is the student. It's made to go in a backpack, not a briefcase. It's made to get bumped around and dropped every now and then.
hmm.. USB optical mouse sounds good...
Amazing. How is it that this didn't get moderated down to -1? Or at least marked as Troll? Maybe it's because everybody else found his comment just as funny as I did. Though that would be scary.
*Insert Laugh here* They have, have they? Then what was with the whole PPCLinux G3 controversy a number of months back? Apple WASN'T giving up specs at that point and the Linux guru's were polite enough not to reverse engineer..
If specs were everywhere, I have doubts we'd be this excited. It sounds like the guy is honestly borderline reverse engineering, just playing with values.
Tons and tons and tons of 'x86 hardware comes to mind to me.
Here's my take on the situation: I like G3's. I like G4's.
I disliked Apple's marketing of the G3's. They thought they were being funny by flaming Intel and claiming a 233 MHz G3 beat a PII 400 (ok, I'm sure. Now load Q3Test and say that..).
I disliked Apple's crap surrounding the G4. They shafted Mac owners who should have been able to upgrade a G3 to a G4. Through a crippling OS upgade no less.
I dislike Apple's attitude to USB, like they invented it or something.. Intel and a bunch of others invented it. Apple licensed it. It's been on Intel motherboards since the 430HX chipset. That's like Pentium 133 era, a few years ago. At the same time, I commend Apple for adopting a good standard and pushing it hard into the market (and one kick in the teeth to MS for not having decent USB support before Win98 when USB was around in '97)
I like the G3 boxes, and the G4 ones. They look pretty sweet, they're loaded with nice hardware (Firewire, Rage128's, and now, AGP (Gimmie a G400 with that, baby!)). The price isn't right for my tastes though, and MacOS is not my bag baby. BeOS, please! Linux, please! But Apple wants to hang onto it's hardware, through ROMs and what not..
So really, I guess I'm saying I like Motorola for their CPU's and I'm glad that third party G3/4 systems are finally a reality. If only Be hadn't put all it's effort into the x86 platform =( Macs are good systems, but in the end, Apple is a company that has to fight MS, and through fighting fire with fire, are acting like MS (proprietary).
- Not an AC, but this is offtopic/mild flamebait.
adb_buttons=103,111 in the kernel options does the trick for me on a PB G3/400. Pressing F12 generates a middle mouse button click, F13 a right click etc. ... no real need for a mouse.
If you don't like these key combinations, pick your own.
--ms
The single biggest reason why no graphics professional will touch any kind of Linux right now: there's no ColorSync, or any other kind of color management for that matter.
You can't do professional graphics without a color-calibrated monitor. Until Linux has something to rival ColorSync, it won't be on the desktop at graphic design shops.
It's great to make a fashion statement, but it would look just a bit garish. Imagine the nasty contrast Tux would make on top of yellow and white vinyl footwear...
For the record:
.MOV was
> Of course, when Apple banned MpegTV from supporting
> the codec that the Star Wars
> encoded in, they weren't exactly being too
> friendly. Or do you disagree?
Apple has not told us anything, and we have never even
looked at the opportunity to use their codec.
You must have been mistaken MpegTV with Xanim, maybe ?
--
Regards, -- Tristan Savatier (President, MpegTV LLC)
I actually had nothing against the iBook when it was announced, and I tend to dislike Macs. The problems came when I saw it in person... the cuteness factor, or whatever it was that got me, faded.
It's a hoss, guys. It might have a great CPU, overall decent specs, but DAMN is it big!
The Powerbooks, on the other hand, now that can be taken seriously in almost any setting. Simple black color scheme, and a much slimmer design. It's a Mac that I'd be willing to carry around. The iBook just feels wrong to me. Maybe the Sony VAIOs and other slimlines spoiled me.
Long time no see, pal... remember me, floppy from freshman year, we did bong hits together during logic 101. So anyway, good to hear you've jumped into the erush and you're making a buck with this ibook thingy. And I just luv the guerilla marketing!
Well, actually, with a Mac (esp. PowerBook, those things are incredible) you can create a bootable Zip in place of a floppy (which doesn't hold anyuseful disk utilities anyway) which works much better. CD-R? C'mon, think about your options here.
I want to put a shaggy little terry cloth cover on my iBook for those cold winter mornings.
but they can't run Photoshop or Quark, so they're just as useless as iMacs.
Sorry, I guess I'm a little new. could you direct me to the computer that for less than $1600 has all the features of an iBook (active matrix display, G3 equivilent processor, built in USB and ethernet ports) yet can outperform it and runs a major OS (not something like WinCE)? Thanks for the info...
well yeah... except the early powerbooks were designed and manufactured by sony.
I don't think much of R&D. R&D is basically creativity by edict. Thus those who do R&D tend not to be the best and the brightest, but the best salesmen/politicians. FWIW.
Sinan
I don't mean to sound like a troll or something, but I just don't get what is so great about an iBook. It's an overpriced, underperforming, oversized, heavy laptop that looks like a toilet seat. Why would I WANT to run Linux on this thing? Why would anyone (unless of course they're a mac fan, in which case everything Apple does is by definition good)? Of course, I never got the iMac either. I guess I can see non-techies being attracted to its styling or something (although personally I think it's incredibly ugly), but these don't strike me as the type of people who would run Linux.
Can somebody explain to me why these things are so damn popular?
I am not an idiot. Please use my name to email me.
"That's right, I'm quoting myself."
-Upsilon
I have nothing against iBooks but I would think that the kind of person who wants to run linux isn't the kind who buys one of these portable toilet seats.
They are ugly but you didnt need to say they suck that much dude
PC hardware is very icky, I agree, but Mac hardware design is hardly saintly. See here for details.
When they changed from M68K processors to POwerPC processers, they just changed the processor and didnd't redesign the boards.
Eeek! Captain, look at the sneer! It's his evil twin brother Lore! What have you done with our Data, foul fiend? ;)
i like the thought of using PPC for a notebook,
(low power usage and heat)
but X is a bitch with only one mouse button!
if apple or anyone made a PPC based notebook with 3 mouse buttons to use with Xfree86, id buy it.
the current ibm thinkpads have 3 mouse buttons, so
im looking at those...
i also dont like the track pad, but thats
just my preference.
anyone know of a linux dists that fits under
200megs and can be installed over pcmcia
ethernet?
carrying a mouse kinda defeats the purpose of a
notebook.
400 MHz Alpha? They don't make them that slow anymore. :) One of these days I'll break down and buy a 666 MHz 21164, or whichever 21264 I can afford.
--
Why would anyone need a floppy drive these days? I'm typing this on a 333 MHz PowerBook running Debian Potato. I haven't used floppies since the early 90's except on the occasional crufty old ia-32 architecture machine I need to use. I can't think of a real architecture that requires a slow and unreliable 1.44 MB drive these days.
--
BogoMIPS are bogus, hence the name. They don't scale across architectures and aren't a reliable indication of a processor's speed. The reason that your readings differ by 200 is completely unrelated to how well your favorite application will run or how fast a kernel will compile.
--
I am writing this on a Dell Inspiron 3500 (Which does run linux quite well actually) and I really really love this machine. There are three things that annoy me about it, however. First, it gets awfully hot, second it chugs batteries, and third I have to plug in a network cord or a phone cord to use the internet at home (which arn't in the places I would prefer to use it). These are pretty standard gripes with all of the IBM Compatible laptops out there. Leave it to Apple to actually do something about these obvious and common complaints in all of their laptops. I owe much of how this beautifal Inspiron laptop looks and feels to Apple, believe it or not. If you look at the older PC laptops they ended at the keyboard, and the ergonomics and feel of them were terrible. If I am not mistaken the Powerbook was one of the first black laptops, and one of the first to sport an extended wristwrest with a touchpad and a great keyboard. I am a PC person, and I am a linux person, but I would buy a Powerbook. They are pretty nice looking, pretty fast, and they have great battery power. I know several people that feel the same way. The Powerbook appeals to me and my friends because that is it's target market, techies. It even fixes my first two gripes. This is owed to the very low power and cool running PowerPC chip. The iBook appeals to the average home buyer, not be a techie. So the way that I see it apple has their bases covered. If you are a techie you have the Powerbook, if you are not you have the bit more trendy less substance iBook. The only thing about the iBook besides the less than appealing to me design is the AirPort. This is something that anybody with a laptop has wanted, and once again it takes Apple to release such an innovation. I may not be a Mac person, but I do recognize that many developments on my laptop and PC have come from Apple, and I surely don't want them to stop innovating and go out of buisiness. Kudos to Apple, you have a sound product line and you have really come up with some great innocations, keep up the good work. Maybe we will see the PC world do what it does best and copy your AirPort and it'll be in my laptop soon :) I really do wish they would be more open with their specs and such so that those of us who would like to run linux on their machines can do so. That is what Apple's problem has always been, trying to keep all of these innvoations and products soo closed that it actually turns companies and people away from buying and developing for them. If I could buy an AirPort for my machine, I would. I would pay the hommage to Apple for coming up with it. It would catch on like wildfire, you would see Campuses completely covered by Airport so you could you a laptop anywhere, it would be a new standard lead by Apple. Sure, those without iBooks would have to stick an antenna on their laptop, but I am sure one could be designed to attatch most laptops. Hell, the iBook people would have the advantage of not having the funny antennas on the back of their laptops. But they won't, they will make you buy and iBook for it, and it will not gain acceptance. Somebody in the PC community will steal the idea, come up with an "open standard" for it, and make PC and Mac versions of it, that will cover college campuses and offices, and it will userp the glory from Apple. And I'll use it because Apple was too stuborn to open their technology.
It's all about style, and let's face it, there isn't a single major laptop manufacturer out there with interesting industrial design, except for IBM and Apple.
:-)
I beg to differ. iBooks (never used one, I can't stop retching when I look at one) are UGLY. Gawd are they ugly.... Beaten with a very large ugly stick and beaten till it just couldn't get any uglier... I'm sorry... Yes it's personal opinion but so was your statement.
IBM's are nice if they'd just get RID of that farking wiggle-dick... Gimme a touch pad any day.
Right now I'm typing on a Hyperdata notebook and it's pretty keen... Had a Compaq Armada 1500DMT before that and the only thing I liked about the Compaq was that the wristrests were sloped and didn't have "corners", where this one is a little 'boxier'. However this one runs ice cold (well... maybe bagel warm, but you get the idea) and is nice and tough... Hyperdata brand-labels for many, MANY manufacturers so I know they've got a well-desgined system.
Anyway, just thought I would stomp on the iBook from a VISUAL standpoint. I've never USED one, but god are they ugly... *shivers at the sight of them*
By the way, the reason so few companies use the stubby-eraser thingy is that IBM has a patent on it. They don't want to pay the licensing fees. :(
Beer recipe: free! #Source
Cold pints: $2 #Product
Has anyone from the OpenBSD crowd submitted a story about it? Rob and gang can't post news they don't know about.
I'm not part of the mac crowd. My iBook is my
first Macintosh hardware, among a family of PCs,
alphas, a NeXT, a PDP-11, yaddayadda. I just
didn't understand what he was saying.
For every problem, there is at least one solution that is simple, neat, and wrong.
It doesn't have ethernet support yet, and it's
rather experimental. He just got it to boot
within the last few days. So... I don't think
that sticking it up as a supported platform on
linuxppc.org is a good idea yet.
For every problem, there is at least one solution that is simple, neat, and wrong.
They're so numerous you can't mention any :)
Anyhow, there are ways to use MacOS fonts
under linux...
For every problem, there is at least one solution that is simple, neat, and wrong.
Are you criticizing the MacOS or the hardware?
After all, my Alpha or any of my PCs arn't
inherently more or less stable or secure than
the others. Why would Linux/PPC be any different
than Linux/Alpha or Linux/x86 WRT security
or stability?
For every problem, there is at least one solution that is simple, neat, and wrong.
I think I recall seeing a USB 3-button mouse you
could hook up to the iBook somewhere...
For every problem, there is at least one solution that is simple, neat, and wrong.
SheepShaver will take care of that for you.
"In short: just say NO TO DRUGS, and maybe you won't end up like the Hurd people." --Linus Torvalds
Thanks, I'll check it out :)
"In short: just say NO TO DRUGS, and maybe you won't end up like the Hurd people." --Linus Torvalds
We've made Linux on PowerPC popular. Don't make me make it a graphics platform too. ;)
I mean, it's never been a graphics platform, and that's not the point. You gotta know your limitations..
-- haaz.
Did you actually read those technotes ? They don't really contain anything more than an overall block diagram, nothing like a register layout of the new chipset. ;)
Fortunately, there's Open Firmware which contains a few more details available to who can read Forth, and parts of those new ASICs are similar enough to the old ones so that extrapolating was not difficult enough.
Also, those new machines are closer to CHRP than any other previous Mac
He doesn't seem to mention anything about what I think is the studlest part of the iBook - 11mbps wireless networking. Anyone know when Linux will support this, and if the iBook could possibly be the first implementation?
I think there is a world market for maybe five personal web logs.
But BogoMIPS are just for calibrating wait loops.
LINUX stands for: Linux Inux Nux Ux X
FRA: STFU GTFO
... is the Airport hardware (a Lucent chipset it would appear) supported by Linux, and is a compatible PCI 802.11 (turbo: the plain is 2mb/s IIRC) NIC supported? I can easily imagine a linux box routing for an Airport/802.11 LAN, if it's supported....
Cheers,
Your Working Boy,
But, the newest version fixes this problem, so perhaps it's time to look at MOL seriously again... hmm..
-----
".sig,
The reason the Macs sold has *always* been because of MacOS (and certain "killer apps" that only exist on it or are radically better than the halfassed Windows ports, like DeBabelizer).
This is why Apple could have been Microsoft had "Star Trek" (the ill-fated x86 port of MacOS) been released prior to Windows 3.0. The Mac hardware has indeed often been spiffy, but it's also often had fiascos (the Mac IIci's unified memory slowing it to a crawl vs. the otherwise similar IIcx, f'rinstance). And their major hardware innovations have generally been asthetic rather than technical (the iMac, the curvy-tower PowerMacs, the G3/G4 slide-open side panel). Even their apparent technical achievements have frequently actually been cribbed (the Quadra AVs? 030/040 plus a DSP? Sounds a lot like NeXTStations.)
As far as the clone thing, yes all their revenues come from selling hardware. But again, why does that hardware sell? Becuase it's the only place you can get MacOS. Mac hardware would be a nonfactor if MacOS were on more platforms.
-Ian, another occasionally bitter former IIgs user
(listen to IIgs music on Win32, Linux, and FreeBSD with MTP/MTPlug at http://home.twcf.rr.com/ischmidt/warez.html)
Why is it that when people get Linux running on new Mac hardware, the /. crew immediately accepts the news story, but when NetBSD does so (we run on virtually every Mac around) the announcement is never considered newsworthy?
AltiVec helps a very few things. It ends up that a lot of the instructions are like a lot of other SIMD (Single Instruction Multiple Data) instrcutions that have abbreviations we know and love... MMX, 3DNow, SSE... as it tuns out, it can help some things, such as graphical processing, but isn't so useful for general-purpose stuff. So, AltiVec might be able to improve a certain 3D render or a certain photoshop transform by xxx%, but as far as doing a compile or booting your operating system AltiVec (and MMX and 3DNow and SSE) don't help that much. Plainly, this is wrong. Altivec _IS_NOT_ MMX or 3DNow or SSE. Its performace benefits are not limited to graphics. Altivec (now known as the Velocity engine) is a Single Instruction Multiple Data unit. Any time a calculation is performed repeatedly on data, altivec can be used to accelerate it. Its a 128 bits but can be divided for smaller chunks, such as 4 32-bit values and 8 16 bit values. for more info: http://developer.apple.com/hardware/altivec/summar y.html --Matt
Know what I like about atheists? I've yet to meet one that believes God is on their side.
I'm not going to paste the whole thing, but an interesting read is John Carmacks's .plan file where he bought an iBook
Give ya'll a reason to use that "finger" command =)
PMU = Power Management Unit
FCR = FIFO Control Register
Just because you can run Linux on a hot mac doesn't mean that Design/Graphics professionals will move there.
There are reasons too numerous to mention, but it has to do with many tiny and tightly integrated applications that only really run correctly under macOS. It'd take years.
Also fonts -- there are essentially no designer type foundaries (other than Adobe and other mega-foundaries) that produce fonts for *nix systems (even windows is incredibly behind)
The Design market isn't going anywhere methinks...
cheers,
.3jane[ltk]
someone tell linuxppc.org..
they don't seem to have heard about it yet.
http://www.linuxppc.org/hardware/
now we just have to wait for G4 support to show up.
question: there isn't an altivec-enhanced gcc out yet, is there? why not? isn't apple using egcs for mac os x? won't they have to release the version they're using to the public? is there even an altivec-enhanced version of mac os x server out yet?
Irritable, left-wing and possibly humorous bumper stickers and t-shirts
this is just the standard comment that i feel compelled to post whenever anyone brings up sheepshaver: you might want to consider checking out the mac_on_linux project instead. It's free and open, and unlike sheepshaver (which is still in beta) it has actually been released.
http://www.ibrium.se/linux/mac_on_linux.html
it's hardware support isn't that wide-ranging though, i don't think. i doubt it will work on an ibook at this moment, although they'd probably be happy if someone would make it work on an ibook (hint, hint).
Irritable, left-wing and possibly humorous bumper stickers and t-shirts
Boot disk! Boot disk!!!
If you think you know what the hell is going on you're probably full of shit. -- Robert Anton Wilson
jdube is who
Apple has release ALL the specs of their computers. They haven't really said anything about it, but they exist in PDF format downloadable from their site, and they have them all from the original apple portable, to the duo, to the Yosemite, to the ibook. And in the iBook specs, they explain the interface to it is a standard ATA bus. It was stated that ATA is similar to ISA on the linuxppc devel list. Given that, its only a matter of time. Its prolly nothing more than a ethernet card.
Note: it has been written in G4 manuals there is a max 3 IDE drives, and to never ever have one as the secondary slave. this is why.
im sure we can think of some other implications, can't we.
I don't remember where these specs are, but i saw them on O'Grady's powerpage, and on the linuxppc devel list. anyone interested in knowing the archetecure of any american mac system (i didn't see the duo290 from japan), go right ahead.
Lycestra
Apple has release ALL the specs of their computers. They haven't really said anything about it, but they exist in PDF format downloadable from their site, and they have them all from the original apple portable, to the duo, to the Yosemite, to the ibook. And in the iBook specs, they explain the interface to it is a standard ATA bus. It was stated that ATA is similar to ISA on the linuxppc devel list. Given that, its only a matter of time. Its prolly nothing more than a ethernet card.
Note: it has been written in G4 manuals there is a max 3 IDE drives, and to never ever have one as the secondary slave. this is why.
im sure we can think of some other implications, can't we.
I don't remember where these specs are, but i saw them on O'Grady's powerpage, and on the linuxppc devel list. anyone interested in knowing the archetecure of any american mac system (i didn't see the duo290 from japan), go right ahead.
Lycestra
This is a huge achievment in that the iBook is of the new UMA board design, which is what the new iMac and i think the sawtooth (G4 450+) systems also use. The mother boards are all the same, they just change the daugher boards. Apple shelled out a lot for higher integration, so mass production of these works better.
The original iMacs were packed, the new ones are extremely open inside. the tranparent plastic and lack of fan is thus appropriate.
This is a change from the past systems. The difference between the black and bronze keyboard pbG3 systems was enough to annoy a few. like the backlight controls were changed. that made it hard to work with in the begining. With the new Unified Motherboard Archetecure (i think thats what it means), it is no longer a question of getting it booting, but a question of supporting the daughter boards. Since the iBook is booting (mostly), this means that it will be that much easier to make the new iMacs boot.
long live PowerPC.
Lycestra
Um, that's a link to the OLD M68K Linux. We're talking 10 year old machines (my SE/30 turns 10 in December). That stuff wasn't so great, but considering that Apple was getting a very responsive GUI working on a machine with less horsepower than my Palm IIIx, I'm impressed.
New Mac hardware is much cleaner. And getting the iBook to boot Linux means that the new iMac and the high-end G4 should be pretty easy; they all use virtually the same motherboard (Apple's new Unified Motherboard Architecure or UMA). The only difference between models is FireWire support, the speed/bus width/RAM on the RAGE 128, and ATA/33 or ATA/66 support.
From what I can tell, the current Mac architecture kicks some serious butt.
-jon
Remember Amalek.
Sure, CD's boot, but it's not an easy to task to make yourself a boot disk (read: rescue disk, on hand for the day you fsck your kernel). Which is easier to make? A CD-R that's bootable, or a floppy disk? They make a nice fallback =)
Obviously you've never used a Mac.
All Macs can boot off of CD-ROMs, Zip Disks, Jaz disks, etc. The only current limitation is you can't boot from a FireWire drive (USB booting support has recently been added), and that should be ready pretty soon.
My emergency boot disk is a Zip disk. Iomega Tools for the Mac comes with a big button that says "CREATE RESCUE DISK." It copies the parts of your system that you need to a Zip disk, and puts on a copy of Disk First Aid (or whatever recovery program you like). It's hard to make it any easier to build a boot disk than (1) Insert Zip disk and (2) press button in Zip Tools.
So, bootability is a non-issue.
-jon
Remember Amalek.
ACtually metacreations has committed to porting several of thier apps to Be. The first of which is bryce. I can't wait for that to be a reality. then I wont need a windows box in the house. I use quite a few of metacreations tools.
"We hope you find fun and laughter in the new millenium" - Top half of fastfood gamepiece
"Fighting the underpants gnomes since 1998!" "Bruce Schneier knows the state of schroedinger's cat"
I think he means graphics tablets like the wacom intuos. I just got my intuos from outpost.com the other day and it works great in X with gimp. Xinput on gimp works great.
"We hope you find fun and laughter in the new millenium" - Top half of fastfood gamepiece
"Fighting the underpants gnomes since 1998!" "Bruce Schneier knows the state of schroedinger's cat"
One word: Bootability.
Sure, CD's boot, but it's not an easy to task to make yourself a boot disk (read: rescue disk, on hand for the day you fsck your kernel). Which is easier to make? A CD-R that's bootable, or a floppy disk? They make a nice fallback =)
Mostly because there are more systems with floppy drives that can make boot disks then there are systems with CD-R's that can make bootable CD's.
Last I checked though, Standard Issue on an iMac didn't include a Zip drive. I'm saying, what happens when you have no bootability options? The Install CD might boot, but does that have all the repair tools you might need?
I shudder to think what Apple's Marketing department would do with those numbers.
"Don't take our word for how fast an iBook is. The new 300MHz G3 iBook's are over 66% faster than a 400MHz Alpha using Linus Torvalds own benchmarks!"
See, if Apple weren't so much fun to abuse no one would do it.
4) Price. I picked up an iBook and a 128 MB memory module for less than $2000. A comparable x86 laptop would cost much more. And since I knew I'd run Linux on it, no matter whether I bought Apple or x86, the cheaper one wins.
..
You can pick a decent Toshiba laptop for ~1500 plus add amore RAM and PCMCIA card. that'll cost you less than $2000.
And yes they run linux very well. iBook does not really run linux, some kernel hacker got kernel to boot on it, but there is no a working Linux distribution that'd run on it
I'd bet money there is not one professional animator using BeOS. It looks real slick but theres a serious lack of apps.
The sensitivity of the Mac crowd rears its ugly head.... He wasn't complaining about the MacOS or the iBook hardware. He was saying that no notebook really needs the functions provided by an OS like Linux (or GNU/Linux), like insanely long uptimes, great security, yadda yadda yadda.
I think you have to take BogoMIPS with a grain of salt. dmesg reports 448.92 BogoMips for my old AMD K6-233. I seriously doubt it's even close to as fast as that PII-400 or a 400 MHz Alpha.
"Any fool can make a rule, and any fool will mind it."
--Henry David Thoreau
If open source worked like this, it would be dead.
-- Tov Are Jacobsen
But it has _STYLE_. It may be ugly style, but it is style. Grey and boxy is old and boring and unimaginative. The vaio I will agree, is different. The thinkpads have spiffy tidbits, like the one with the folding keyboard. But the average laptop is still stuck on the first basic laptop design...
itachi
Now if they can get the airport business to work that will be incredible. I'm already drooling for the day when I can carry my G4 Powerbook to the breakfast table to the couch to my bedroom while surfing the web at LAN speed.
Honestly though, other than as a pure toy, and interesting application, I don't see that this will have too much of an impact on Linux. Now if a G4 with the Apple Cinema Display on it was working in Linux, we'd really be able to break into some new markets (like graphics). Maybe support for tablets.
Joey
+-------+ between the wish and the thing lies the world - All the Pretty Horses
regardless of what it looks like, it's a computer. who really cares what the fuck their computer "looks" like?
/. is like a steer's horns, a point here, a point there and a lot of bull in between.
Which, of course, happens to be a much better argument for NOT buying an iMac than that which you replied too. I mean, something that is ugly still has novelty value (or. at least that is what I try to convince women).
-
"Tons and tons and tons," and yet you can't cite a single example?
Would you prefer a different target? A military target? Then name the system!
Closest thing I could turn up for an actual supported, brand-name system would be last year's Sony VAIO 505's and IBM's low-end i-series Thinkpads...both being blown out now for nearly the same price as the iBook. Both are great basic systems for the money (and look better than the iBook, IMHO)...but neither quite meets the "cheaper" or "outperform" criteria specified.
I'm no Apple worshipper...and I think the iBook looks like a toilet seat...but I do try to be objective in evaluating the substantive capabilities of a system...and I for one applaud Apple's recent efforts to trim legacy interfaces that aren't so much "features" anymore as they are "nuisances," with most everything now covered by much simpler USB, Ethernet and/or FireWire. Yes, I do have quite an investment in SCSI, parallel and serial peripherals...but I will be GLAD when it comes time to replace them and not have to deal with all that black magic anymore.
Floppies were neat at one time. Critical, even. But they've long since passed to the "nuisance" stage. Not even good for sneakernet anymore. I'll be glad to see them dead and buried too. Only problem, unlike the other legacy crap, is that there's no definitive established standard to take their place. Zip? CD-RW? Something else? This remains to be seen.
Amen.
Hopefully, the iBook boots consistantly. More mac support for Linux (and vice versa) is good for both platforms, IMHO. Course, I think the iBook would look damn cool in that new iMac graphite.
Congrats to the experimenter for proof of concept. Hopefully the modem issue will be easier to work around than WinModems appear to be on Wintel designed laptops.
--Humpty Dumpty was pushed!
Think about iBooks sharing CPU cycles anytime they get close enough to make an RF connection.
-jcr
The only title of honor that a tyrant can grant is "Enemy of the State."
Apple didn't invent USB, true. But it's hard to deny that it was the iMac and it's funky look that put it on the map.
Airport most definately IS an open standard. It was developed by Lucent and licensed by Apple.
I forget the IEEE number tho, perhaps someone can fill me in...
But there ARE PCMCIA cards available that let non-iBooks communicate on an Airport network.
Of course, in these cases, the antenna's external, not built in to the lid, and the cards are more expensive than the $99 Airport, but they DO exist. I think Falleron makes the one I've heard about.
More exciting to me than Airport is the prospect of third party add-ons to the Airport slot. Since the Antenna's already built in, I'm hoping that a third party will build a cellular modem card that fits in the Airport slot and uses the built in antenna. Such a thing would be more useful to ME than wireless ethernet, and it would be way cool....
(pssst, hardware developers.... you listining?)
john
Imagine all the people...
The original iMacs weren't packed THAT tightly inside. They LOOKED full because of the big aluminum RF sheilding around the monitor.
But inside that sheilding, there's nearly as much open space as in the current iMac.
In the new iMacs Apple figured out how to incorperate that shieldind into the plastic, so you can see through the whole thing.
Net result: the new iMac LOOKS less crowded, but is not less crowded by too large a margin.
john
Imagine all the people...
I want an iBook, I want it in the new graphite colour like the new G4s, and I want running Linux. I guess I,ll have to wait a while, hmmmph, I don't have the money now anyway. It's not overpriced althiough it could use a better keyboard, IBM portables stilll have the best.
I have two questions. 1. What is a FCR and 2. What is a MPU?
Post your stinck somewere else.
If Rhapsody can do SETI@home data sets 6 hours faster than the Mac OS, a G4's could complete data sets in 0 hours running Rhapsody.
Unless I'm mistaken, I believe he's talking about the tablets used in high-end graphics, something the size of a mouse pad that responds to the pressure of a wand or pen, used for data input (re: drawing). But I could be wrong...
"Nobody owns the fucking words man." - James Dean
Since NetBSD already has an iMac and G3 version, it will probably soon have iBook support. If the Linux guys would cooperate more with the BSD guys, things would get supported sooner and with less effort from any group.
regardless of what it looks like, it's a computer. who really cares what the fuck their computer "looks" like? (aside from people who do, that is)
sorry for my ignorance
I can carry it around, it runs linux, and it's pretty. That satisfies my computing needs.
-- I don't really have anything useful to say. ~Tuts
I see a lot of people complaining that the ibook is high priced and low performance. That's not because "Macs suck" as these people are so fond of saying. It's because iBooks weren't designed for people trying to figure out how to set up their own beowulf cluster. It's designed for people who call tech support because they forgot to plug in their computer. That's why a lot of production money is taken away from hardwared and put into pretty colors.
Also, did anyone else notice that the new iMac release is giving a lot of hardware for the money. Normally with Macs you get half the RAM and disk space of a comparable PC. But the 1300 dollar iMac DVs give you about the same hardware. That takes away one more compaint from raving anti-Mac reactionaries.
-- I don't really have anything useful to say. ~Tuts
Maybe someone can make a Beowulf cluster of them :-)
I don't think it's gonna catch on. Let's face it, it's a purely academic thing, not something done from a practicality POV -- iBooks don't need security, stability, or a large stable of daemons/services and applications. They don't stay up for months, weeks, or even days at a time, and the bigger security issue is having the thing stolen for hardware, and nobody would take the thing seriously as a mission-critical system (unless you're operating the US Army's website).
iBooks take notes and write reports. If you expect anything more out of a notebook, then you're really looking at the wrong product.
My $0.02 -- still a long way from *any* kind of laptop...
--
E2 IN2 IE?
At my company, I installed linux on a Dell Latitude, so that I could work on code at home and during trips.
In fact, it worked out that the best use of it was to run live demonstrations of our unix software projects when traveling. The only development use I really got out of it was using it to dial in to the network and display xterms from my desktop. But because of the demo usage, other projects here caught on, and I have installed Linux on four other laptops.
As far as all those other issues, we've used it a few times on trips as a router on a small laptop LAN, but that was usually not worth the time it took to set up, in my opinion.
The biggest limitation on the machines usuage was the lack of disk space; our demo requires a large amount of data, and our system is pretty bloated, so it is hard to keep a development copy and the demo scripts and data on the hard drive. The most recent machine to receive Linux here was a Dell Ispirion 7000; that had a 14 GB harddrive (it now comes with a 25) and it is faster than anyone of our Sun stations. The person who has it uses it like a desktop machine, except that it is easier to take on the road.
The biggest linux problem I face is that switching from the LCD to an external projector display sometimes messes up X; the screen shifts about 25 pixels to the right.
Actually, it is how open source is. You think linux was designed by an R&D team? Open source works because the pepole who write for it are, for the most part, devoted hackers who like coding and making things work.
Perhaps Slashdot should have a spelling checker/suggestor in addition to the preview button? I know I would like to see that.
--Cheese
I argee you that this anti-MAC stuff is stupid. IF you look at it from a objective standpoint the Mac's hardware has been Kicking the PC's ass ever sence the the Mac was released. MY grips about Apple is that they are to closed(this is what has hert them so bad. If Apple would open up and quit worring about people ripping off there designs we would all be useing Mac's instead of PC's MY other grip is that I very strongly dislike there OS (but it is a personal opintion) I plan on buying a G4 laptop when they become avaible of cource I will be running linux on it :) I do think this is a very inportant achivment, and it would be alot easier if Apple open up and give us a break. It would probly help there marketshare with out the use of new and odd color combos (Expect the Gray color of the new G4's I like those colors)
Where are we going and why are we in a handbasket?
Interesting...because Compaq use them.
---- Den ene knappen er powerknapp, den andre er Bender voice knapp "Bite My Shiny Metal Ass"
You fail, Upsilon, to inform yourself about the product you're criticizing.
The iBook costs $1,600, contains a 300-MHz PowerPC G3 processor with 512K backside level 2 cache, 32 MB RAM (with support for up to 160MB), 3.2GB IDE hard drive, 24x-speed CD-ROM drive, a 12-Mbps Universal Serial Bus (USB) port, 10/100BASE-T Ethernet, 56K modem (V.90) with FAXstf, 16-bit stereo sound output, 4MB of SDRAM video memory (2X AGP-ATI RAGE Mobility graphics controller), 12.1-inch TFT SVGA active-matrix display (640x480 and 800x600 with millions of colors), 6-hour battery life (ENERGY STAR compliant), and full-size keyboard (76 keys).
The iBook can be configured with a 11-MBPS Air Port wireless networking card (IEE 802.11 DSSS compliant).
I would not call the iBook oversized, but you can judge for yourself: width 13.5 inches (34.4 cm), height 11.6 inches (29.4 cm), average depth: 1.8 inches (4.6 cm), from 1.24 inches (3.15 cm) to 2.06 inches (5.2 cm) Weight: 6.6 pounds (3.0 kg)
For more info check out http://www.apple.com/ibook/.
I beg to differ. I truly believe that the Sony Vaio's Ultra-Slim brushed alumninum is a truly kick-ass design. A professor of mine picked it up and it has this neat purple steel type feel to it. cool.
I guess the only question left is... "why?" I'm not bashing macs here, they're fine, but... doesn't this thing have no floppy drive? Why not just get a notebook / laptop that does? What is the advantage to using Linux on an iBook than, say, an IBM laptop / notebook? Maybe I'm missing the point here, and if so don't smash me in moderation points just tell me.
If you think you know what the hell is really going on you're probably full of shit.
If you think you know what the hell is really going on you're probably full of shit.
jdube is who I am.
Creativity can happen anywhere, but many R&D firms and the people working there start their thinking from what their employers want to see. People selling candles on the sidewalk do so because the often think TOO far outside the box.
Qybix ----- I do not have a belief system; I'm an Anti-theist and proud of it! Saying that not believing in anything i
you wrote:
The speed and useability of MacOS and Wintel systems are pretty comparable now, each platform had advantages over the other but for a lot of people, either platform would be suitable.
Excuse me? The speed of any intel chip (or clone) doesn't come close to the G4. And as someone who daily uses NT and OS8.6 - I can assure you that they are not equally "usable" (although NT is far superior to Win95/98 in stability). And Win98 is an abomination, with its integration with MSIE. I use that in the HTML2 class I teach each week. I have a 3 hour class and have to reboot the machine at least one time each session. And all I have open is notepad and Netscape. Go figure.
Re Linux on the iBook - I think it's cool and wonder if it'll work on iMac as well. I have my G3 powerbook partitioned for LinuxPPC but can't seem to make time to actually install it.
Kathy
Now all I have to do is convince Russ, a mac fiend to partition out some space. But perhaps I can find other people with these to put it on their computer, like my mentee :) But Linux can find it's way into the discussion again in the Computer Repair Lab(macos doesn't boot? Try booting off that Linux CD)
But I'd like to see the performance difference up and close(and wonder where the LinuxPPC version uses the Apple BIOS)... But nonetheless, yet more options for those poor new frosh people(I'm in NE)
"Hex, Bugs, and Rockn'Roll"
People don't understand this very well. It is _NOT_ 3dNow or MMX. What we are talking about is a fairly large number of absolutely huge registers. If I'm not mistaken it'd also be possible to use them somewhat more inefficiently as ordinary registers, or as _sets_ of ordinary registers. :) now that I mention it, I have to seriously wonder whether Linux does its stuff by requiring a bit more space to work, and being beautifully unsophisticated about both disk and memory! ;)
The very first thing that comes to mind is not anything graphics related, but simply block moves. MacOS makes heavy use of double indirection, 'handles' to blocks that are moved by the Memory Manager. This API is widely used by applications and changes to the system's implementation would speed up most applications across the board, so long as they used Memory Manager calls. Asking the MacOS to allocate memory in a situation where it has to compact the application zone and move 60M of relocatable blocks could become quite radically faster if it could be done 128 bytes at a time. I think that sums it up, don't you?
I hope linux geeks know what relocatable blocks are. Maybe that is something only systems hackers have to know about, or not even then. It's basically a way of defragging and optimising memory like you defrag and optimize disk
Trust is nice but I think many more people are going to like versions of Microsoft Office and Photoshop that run on top of a BSD based OS.
Which, I'm sure, are guaranteed to ported perfectly...
Of course, I'm extremely interested in seeing Office/Photoshop on a BSD based machine. It could completely rule. It might not. It's all vapor right now.
Yours Truly,
Dan Kaminsky
DoxPara Research
http://www.doxpara.com
Well, this is my first Mac, and I'm a Linux geek. .. err.. nevermind
:)
:)
Let's see... it's joining a family of:
a NeXT running NeXTStep 4.2
2 Alphas running Linux
2 relatively modern x86s running Linux
a PDP-11 running RSX-11
a Newton that I'm going to give to one of my
sisters for college (running NewtonOS 2.1)
2 ancient x86s (pre386) running CP/M and DOS
a Nintendo64 running
Anyhow, why the iBook? Well, I got an eMate some
time ago to replace a laptop that died, and it
was really great (long battery life), but it
was too slow. It didn't keep up with my typing,
and I wanted a machine I could compile stuff on,
run Perl, and have nice networking built-in.
So... I looked at all the laptops I could get
a good price on, and the iBook pretty much
ended up at the head of the list. It's fast,
it's fairly cheap, it has a nice display, it has
built-in 100Mbps ethernet, and I thought it would
run OSX until Linux got ported.
Alas, OSX doesn't run on the iBook yet, so I'm
dealing with MacOS currently (Thank goodness
someone ported vim to MacOS). I've written a
Unixlike shell in Perl to help me manage files
(well, am writing, rather), but at least I can
play Bolo
Anyhow, once Linux understands the iBook's
ethernet hardware, I'll be very very quickly
running Linux on it. One of the nicest things
about Linux is you can be hardware agnostic
For every problem, there is at least one solution that is simple, neat, and wrong.
One word: wow.
A toilet that runs Linux! And, didn't someone say that Linux doesn't work well in embedded systems? This'll show them.
Justin
Mu. P.S. The address you see is real. =)
I tried using the development kernel on my iBook, and it works surprisingly great, despite the missing network/modem support, etc. Linux flies on it, although that might have to do with how I have 160 MB of memory on it.
Here's the thing that really freaked me out though, when I booted it up: the dmesg output reports 598.02 BogoMIPS. My Dell PII-400 only reports around 390, and I'm getting 598 from a 300 MHz Mac. Even the 400 MHz Alphas I use only report 360.
I have two speculations - either a) the iBook is a serious powerhouse crippled by a bloated MacOS, or b) the G3 has some optimization in it that throws off the numbers.
Can anyone shed some light on this? I know BogoMIPS isn't an absolute indicator of performance, but how does one account for a 200 point difference from a machine 100 MHz slower? If the G3'S really are this fast, I will never buy another x86 box again.
I better put on the asbestos suit for this one.
Since everyone out here is bashing the iBook, let me play devils advocate and say why I bought one.
1) Everything is integrated. I have no need to go out and buy PC cards for modem & network, it's all built into the same box at one price.
2) AirPort. You gotta love the AirPort. CompUSA was giving away free AirPort cards w/ iBooks the weekend I bought mine, so that made it even better.
3) Strength. As a college student, I already have enough junk to carry around with me, much less a bulky laptop bag. Since the iBook's case is so strong, I can just shove it in my backpack along with my books and not worry about it getting hurt. Plus, since the battery lasts so long, I don't even need to carry around a power adapter.
4) Price. I picked up an iBook and a 128 MB memory module for less than $2000. A comparable x86 laptop would cost much more. And since I knew I'd run Linux on it, no matter whether I bought Apple or x86, the cheaper one wins.
5) Design. This really is a great-looking notebook (at least the blue one is... the orange is pretty ugly).
6) No M$ tax. I refuse to give Microsoft any more money, and if I buy an x86 machine from a reputable manufacturer, I'd probably end up buying a machine subject to the M$ tax.
I bought a Dell Inspiron 7000 over the summer and sent it back a week later. It weighed 10 pounds, but felt flimsy and fragile. The iBook is nothing like that - it feels like a tank.
Yellow Dog Linux runs great on it despite the lack of support for a lot of the hardware. I can't wait until it's fully supported...
A few years ago, I said if the price of PowerPC comes down to 10% of a comparable Wintel's price, I'll opt for a PowerPC and install linux, and now it has. You can get a brand new iMac for $779. You can start with www.macinfind.com, www.deals-mac.com, www.absolutemac.com, and of course, www.google.com.
I know, it sounds like a shameless plug but I thought it'll be useful to some.
Hasdi
Trust.
Trust is nice but I think many more people are going to like versions of Microsoft Office and Photoshop that run on top of a BSD based OS.
They shafted Mac owners who should have been able to upgrade a G3 to a G4. Through a crippling OS upgade no less.
I wish people here would get over the misleading headlines on some of the stories here. The FACT of the matter is that there are already two companies that have workarounds for Apple's firmware G4 cripple, with more coming.
See http://www.powerlogix.com/ for more details.
What I am interested in knowing is why anyone who had Mac OS X would have any interest in running Linux anyway. Soon after release people will start porting the open source stuff to Mac OS X, plus they will have Carbon plus all the legacy Mac apps. What does Linux offer? Just the open source stuff. The cost of OS X will be irrelevent because of the bundling that will go on.
So just what is the benefit of running Linux on a Mac after Mac OS X is out, anyway???
The thought that Apple's software interests(OSX) are causing specifications to be hidden about their hardware products(mmm...G4...) is mildly disturbing, to say the least.
What a load of crap. Just because Apple hasn't released the Technotes on the G4 hardware yet doesn't mean they won't. Nor does it have anything to do with OS X - all the G3s, iMac and iBook tech notes are out - these machines are just as likely to run OS X as the G4s.
Complaining about Microsoft becomes much more disturbing when you realize what any number of other software companies would do in their place...
What pipe were you smoking when you came up with that one? Apple is not a software company. Apple is in fact, a hardware company. If they were a software company they wouldn't care about clones and in fact would encourage them. But they can't because almost all their revenues and profits come from selling - hardware.
I just got a raise so I'm looking at picking one up for Christmas (g4 maybe). I haven't used a mac for a long time, but they're pretty. I don't use MacOs much (slight support), but it's easy and pretty. Just another tool for different work.
+&x
Ac cording to Hason Haas of LinuxPPC Apple was helping the Linux PowerPC folks on getting Linux working.
Please don't automatically assume that Apple is on the wrong side on this.
"It is our blasphemy which has made us great, and will sustain us, and which the gods secretly admire in us." - Zelazny
That the current MacOS IS really inefficent in it's use of the processor. There's a lot of baggage even in OS 9, that slows down the system compared to what a PPC *CAN* do.
Remember, that IBM overclocked a PPC to 1 gig, a good year or so ago.
OS X is supposed to change all this by placing the finder on top of a BSD Unix system.
You might check out the stats for SETI @home. There's a guy on an plder Mac there, running a developer release of Rhapsody, who churns out data units about six hours faster than MacOS. Also note the times of the various *BSD implementations. They pretty much ALL smoke bth MacOS AND windoze.
Also worth noting ae the "CPU Types" statistics. Here, PPC finishs data blocks about 8 hours faster than x86. It's important to note, tho, that this includes IBM's AIX PPC workstations which, accouding to the OS Stats page, finishes data units about twice as fast as MacOS. So it stands to reason that the MacOS IS holding the PPC back in the CPU stats area.
Now, I know that SETI @home is not the best test for benchmarking a CPU out there. But face it, any benchmark one could choose (Byte, spec, Photoshop, Q3 Test Framerate, etc.) is going to piss off SOMEONE, and promptly be declared invalid by users of the system that loses.
But what I think the SETI @home numbers DO demonstrate is that the PPC really IS an excellent chip, that DOES smoke its opponents. It, in most cases, is being slowed down by an outdated and inefficent operating ststem (although it performs quite well even after overcoming the overhead of the MacOS).
I know from first hand expierence that my G3's performance is quite righteous running LinuxPPC. I don't have any benchmarks, but it just *feels* twice as fast when running in its Linux partion vs. the MacOS partition. Granted, that's not at all scientific, but what the hell....
So, yeah, if you want an awesome Linux box, PPC IS a REALLY good choice. And since IBM's released the MB specs, you won't even HAVE to go with Apple in the near future. I plan to tho, I'm keeping my hopes up that they'll do a good job of integrating the MacOS GUI with BSD UNIX in OS X. I've had a chance to play with both Darwin, and OS X Server, and somehow, I think they WILL get it right.
But only time will tell.
john
Imagine all the people...
I agree with you, itachi.
And on another note... The speed and useability of MacOS and Wintel systems are pretty comparable now, each platform had advantages over the other but for a lot of people, either platform would be suitable. Because of that, there has to be some other way for companies to distinguish their products from others... and the nest way to do that is through the style. I consider myself to be a pretty technical guy but I also appreciate stylish-looking computers. I get sick of sitting at my desk and staring at a beige box that looks like every other computer ever made.
I'll confess to being a Mac Guy... but I have owned a couple of PCs in the past. Also, I have a 450 Mhx PIII from HP as well as an HP C3000 Workstation on my desk at the office. At home I've got a B&W G3 and a Wallstreet model PowerBook. The last PC i owned was a "home built" system with a cool-looking case and one of those Black & green Acer monitors- primarily becuase it was interesting to look at and caused people to comment when they saw it.
I'm glad that Apple has moved to these radical new machine designs.
Now, to comment on this thread, so that this comment will not be completely off-topic.... I think that the guy who got Linux to boot on an iBook should be commended. He took the time to work through all of the technical details and spent his time programming to solve a problem- and he got it to work.
What I am interested in knowing is why anyone who had Mac OS X would have any interest in running Linux anyway. Soon after release people will start porting the open source stuff to Mac OS X, plus they will have Carbon plus all the legacy Mac apps. What does Linux offer? Just the open source stuff. The cost of OS X will be irrelevent because of the bundling that will go on.
.MOV was encoded in, they weren't exactly being too friendly. Or do you disagree?
So just what is the benefit of running Linux on a Mac after Mac OS X is out, anyway???
Trust.
I'll be blunt, I don't know how much I trust OSX to be a mature and fully functional Unix. It might rule. It might not. For the same reason I've become fascinated with *BSD, I've got alot of respect for Linux on the Mac platform.
Having recently taken SparcLinux off of a bunch of cheap IPC's and put on Solaris 2.7, I can tell you that while it's impressive that Sun's latest OS works on ANCIENT hardware, it doesn't work all that fast. Linux did.
Anyway, I look forward to Beowulf clusters w/ G4's, and I don't think Beowulf works cross-platform.
What a load of crap. Just because Apple hasn't released the Technotes on the G4 hardware yet doesn't mean they won't. Nor does it have anything to do with OS X - all the G3s, iMac and iBook tech notes are out - these machines are just as likely to run OS X as the G4s.
I stand corrected, then. I based my assumption on the fact that the iBook coder talked heavily of having to reverse engineer entire chunks of the iBook architecture.
(Yup, every once in a while some guy on Slashdot actually admits he fucked up. It happens.)
Complaining about Microsoft becomes much more disturbing when you realize what any number of other software companies would do in their place...
What pipe were you smoking when you came up with that one? Apple is not a software company. Apple is in fact, a hardware company. If they were a software company they wouldn't care about clones and in fact would encourage them. But they can't because almost all their revenues and profits come from selling - hardware.
That doesn't change the fact that if information is withheld from Linux developers but delivered to OSX people, Apple is ignoring the needs and desires of customers. I was unaware about the tech spec releases for the older macs--therefore, yup, I was wrong when I implied that Apple did alot of this.
Of course, when Apple banned MpegTV from supporting the codec that the Star Wars
To me, this is an prime example of how open-source tends to work. Somebody with the hacking ability says to him/herself, "I wonder if I can get this to work on an iBook" and then does it, posting his work so that others can help out if they want to.
Super, and keep up the good work.
Around my college, and likewise with many other people who liken themselves to be 'IT' professionals and are too snooty to use a mac, I'd love to carry one of those around with LinuxPPC installed.
Maybe it's just me, but I'd really get a kick out of people snickering, maybe even laughing at me until they came over and saw KDE running in X. (Or even better, came over and saw the linux CLI on the screen. I can imagine it, "whoah, is that a screensaver?")
Sad thing is that many folks are completly set against Apple & Macintoshes in general, that they forget that they can be a very useful computing system. Ask most who does computer graphics or animation for a living, and if they're not using Be (they could EASILY overtake Macintosh if they pushed their OS to software developers more), they're using a Mac.
...And I'd much rather have Mac OS X on my computer than Windows.
Those who complain about Microsoft keeping their OS specifications close to their chest, thus making their partners commit all sorts of beautiful First Wave anti-trust-be-damned actions:
MS ties their OS and their Applications together. Apple ties the OS and the Hardware together, which if you really think about it is really quite a bit more exclusionary than MS could even dream about. Linux has long since become enough of a force that companies that choose not to open their specifications to it have long since implicitly ignored the needs of their customers.
I'm a former Apple IIgs user, so the concept of me wanting a Mac is...a foreign concept. LinuxPPC is the first thing that's ever made me interested in owning a Mac again. The thought that Apple's software interests(OSX) are causing specifications to be hidden about their hardware products(mmm...G4...) is mildly disturbing, to say the least.
Of course, the whole CHRP(Common Hardware Reference Platform) fiasco does make all of this at least mildly expected. Complaining about Microsoft becomes much more disturbing when you realize what any number of other software companies would do in their place...
Yours Truly,
Dan Kaminsky
DoxPara Research
http://www.doxpara.com
It had to happen at some point. Someone, somewhere, trying to do something neat, got linux running on an iBook. Someone else submits the story to /. Then the /. anti-Mac bias kicks in, and rather than having a of discussion about the technical achievement, or people wondering if this might provide some insight into solving their problem with a funky piece of hardware, we have people talking trash about a computer that they have never used. It would be nice if once, we could have an Apple article posted to /. without the trash talk and dismissal of someone's hard work as garbage. The gent who got Linux running on an iBook has quite clearly done his reasearch and put a lot of effort into this. I, for one, think it is commendable.
Having gotten that out of the way, I think it's pretty slick. I'd much rather have an iBook (blue, the tangerine looks awful) that is dual boot than a PC laptop of the same price, regardless of the OS(s) on the PC. It's all about style, and let's face it, there isn't a single major laptop manufacturer out there with interesting industrial design, except for IBM and Apple. Now both IBM and Apple don't necessarily make the perfect laptop at any given point in time, but they make very slick laptops that are interestingly designed, and they both have a pretty solid track record for that. The clincher is that there's no way that you can find a ThinkPad that competes with the iBook for the same price. Though the stubby-eraser dealie is still a nicer design than a pad, imho.
itachi, who still wants an iBook running Linux