It's so slow that my Windows games [steamcommunity.com] running under Crossover games [codeweavers.com]/Wine [winehq.org] which actively translate DXSL to GLSL in real time for a graphics server that isn't even running on ring-0 (like Windows and OS X are) is able to beat both OS X and Windows XP/Vista in performance and quality (I can boot the quality settings right up without performance issues) on the same hardware.
Rendering which mostly bypasses X's rendering layers.
It is interactions with and between windows in X that is slow. E.g. without compositing, each windows framebuffer is not stored in memory. That means that when you unminimize a window it has to repaint itself. When you move a window so that a window beneath it becomes visible, that window has to repaint itself. So when you dragged a window on top of a firefox window showing gmail, that would cause huge rendering artifacts and slowdowns everywhere because the gmail gui is constructed using javascript which firefox had to reinterpret.
In 1986, when 1MB of memory was a shitload, that was a good idea. Storing each windows framebuffer would be wasteful. Today, it is just unbelievably broken. Now we have the composite extension which fixes this particular architecture misdesign.
But there is more left. For example, the window manager structure. When you resize a window, first the window manager has to repaint the frame, then the client also has to repaint itself. Since they can't both repaint themselves at the same time you get flicker. The same thing applies to subwindows, check out how ugly scrollbars in gtk+ redraws when you resize their windows.
Open an explorer window in Windows. Resize it. Notice the flicker and rendering artifacts. Open a Nautilus window in GNOME. Resize it. Notice the horrible flicker and rendering artifacts. This is without compositing. With it, you get other artifacts.
It doesn't matter what program or what machine you are using. You can compare the same thing using Firefox in Windows and Linux. A much slower Windows machine produces redraws with far fewer artifacts than a high-end Linux box. Since Windows does it better, the must be something wrong with X.
Re:I voted in this manner...
on
How We Used To Vote
·
· Score: 4, Informative
Your story appears to be made up. If it isn't, could you please provide more details so that someone could identify who this scumbag mayor is? He should be in jail but may still hold some official position which is why it is important to identify him.
Granted this was only way back in 2000, but I lived in St. Clair County, IL. It was a small township called French Village
According to wikipedia, there is no French Village township in St. Clair County. However, google maps finds a park called French Village in East St. Louis in St. Clair County in Caseyville township.
At 8am, the mayor knocked on my door and informed my wife and I it was time to vote
The mayor in Caseyville at that time seem to have been George Chance. So that is the guy that came knocking on your door 8am 2000-11-07 dragging you out to vote? Didn't you have to work or something?
We marched down to the fire station with him and twenty other poor people
Also fishy. The townships population is 4300, why did he choose you and 20 other people? Also, must have been quite a walk. There's not that many fire departments in Caseyville...
That is very true. Two years ago he was nobody, today he has most of the industrialized world cheering him on. It to silly for me, but I've seen plenty of non-Americans wearing Obama 2008 t-shirts and people reading his biography. In any other country, there wouldn't be a "race" -- Obama would win a 95%+ land-slide victory.
Most Americans are not aware of that fact, and it scares the shit out of me that the people of the most powerful nation in the world can be kept so uninformed. There are the American Republican party that like McCain and there is the rest of the world. Which is not strange considering what his predecessor has done, wars in Afganistan, Iraq, finance crisis, patriot act, Katrina, rejecting Kyoto, etc, etc. What is strange is how people can be so ignorant that they don't understand that if they vote for the Republican candidate, they will get more of the same Republican politics?
I think a world record in collective stupidity was set in 2004 when the US prolonged Bush's regime. How long do you smash your head in the wall before you understand that it hurts?
Seriously. Yes they are. Any computer literate long time Ubuntu user that has been running Ubuntu since Feisty can testify that it has been getting slower. The performance problems are all over the distro.
I can see several problems with the testing methodology as is:
* The test suite itself: The Phoronix test suite runs on PHP. That in itself is a problem-- the slowdowns measured could most likely be *because* of differences in the distributed PHP runtimes. You can't just say "hey, version Y of distro X is slower than version Z! LOLZ" because, WTF. You're pretty much also running different versions of the *test suite* itself (since you have to consider the runtime as part of the test suite). Unless you remove that dependency, then sorry, you can't measure things reliably. Which brings me to my second point...
Or you could just RTFA instead of speculating about possible test methodology failures. The suite is GPL:ed and anyone can reproduce their results if they have the inclination to do so.
Honestly, I was unimpressed by the benchmarks. I happen to do performance benchmarking as part of my job, and I can tell you, you have to eliminate all the variables first -- isolate things to be able to say "X is slow". If you rely on a PHP runtime, use *exactly* the same PHP runtime for all your testing; otherwise, you'll get misleading results.
And I'm honestly unimpressed by you, your fake appeal to authority and the rest of the commentators who apparently has no idea about what testing is. The PHP runtime is used for aggregating test results. If it takes 60 seconds to encode an mp3, then what version of the PHP runtime used won't matter.
For example, one possible culprit is CFS which were added in, I think 8.04. A feature that on a micro scale might look very attractive (run 10 infinite while loops simultaneously without them starving each other), but which on a macro scale might have disastrous consequences (mouse pointer movement becomes sluggish when unpacking rar files).
What are you talking about? I have downloaded JDK:s and JRE:s from java.sun.com probably hundreds of times and never been prompted to install OO too. Is this a new feature or something?
If you need to be told by a report that internet makes instant communication possible, then I don't think you should be in change of something important. Sentiments like that is exactly what gives you presidents who cant locate the countries they want to invade on a map.
That's about as smart as saying that you can't test the theory of evolution because we didn't have two identical earths from 2 million years ago so we cant verify that species evolve. Most of science works using models and any basic chemistry lab can verify that increased levels of CO2 reflects more light of certain wavelengths which lead to higher temperatures. Any more professional biology lab can verify that organisms evolve by growing bacteria for a few days.
This is good news. There are many distributions that just take the latest and greatest of every package without doing proper quality control (Ubuntu, Gentoo, Fedora, etc). The price they pay is regressions and stuff that doesn't work. There needs to be distros like Debian which, while always delayed, has all the important bugs ironed out.
You guys have a really freaking huge advantage in being naitive English speakers. Maybe you mostly suck at writing code, maybe your maths aren't that bright. But you still can speak and write English fluently. That alone should be enough to land you in for example a French company where I can guarantee you that most of the coders basically can say "hi" in English if even that. Use that, that is your unique selling proposition that most noone can match.
60nm parts have 25% more area in which to absorb electrons and 25% more dielectric between elements than a 45nm part, so of course they could handle more voltage without damage. It's a design flaw in material physics, not the processor.
And that looks like a fault in your calculation. 45^2 = 2025, 60^2 = 3600. 3600/2025 = 1.78. So 60 nm parts have 78% more area.
I'm surprised you didn't talk to a lawyer as you are potentially eligible to a percentage of the profits your patents generated. Contrary to popular belief, companies does not automatically take ownership of the patents their employees file.
Who is making this shit up? Just because people repeat that lie doesn't make it true. Belonging to a union does not take away your freedom or any opportunities.
I'm far from a marketing expert but.. In the commercial he has bad body posture, negative body language, sad facial expression, greasy hair, squeaky voice, unfitting boring clothes. The only message I get is that's how depressing and sad your dead-end life becomes with Microsoft and not even knowing a cool dude like Jerry Seinfeld can save you.
Erlang is merely an implementation that makes realizing those basic design principles simple because processes have virtually zero overhead so you get fault isolation and recoverability for free. In other environments implementing the same "basic design principles" is complicated and carries a lot of overhead. Which is why most browsers aren't built around the multi-process model.
Seems like they have taken a leaf of Erlang wisdom here. If you were to write a browser in Erlang, using one (Erlang) process per tab is exactly the way you would have written it. I think it shows that designing software for robustness, something that previously mostly was done for high availability enterprise systems is now reaching the desktop.
Wouldn't surprise me if the next cool browser innovation will be hot code swapping so that you won't have to close all your 5324 tabs just to install the latest browser security fix. At which point they have reinvented Erlang.:)
Define "real hard drive.":) Yes, the cache flush command is in the ATA spec and has been mandatory for many years, still doesn't mean that all disks support it.
That is completely right. But in addition, there is also the hdd's own disk cache. That is, all data going to the disk is cached twice. fsync() time is mostly irrelevant though because fsync can not force the hard disk to flush its cache (see fsync's man page for details). Which can be very irritating because many disks doesn't allow you to turn off the disk cache so no matter what you do, there just is no way to guarantee data consistency in case of a power failure.
Incorrect. Unions help industries adapt and become more efficient. By developing best practicies and especially by increasing the salary costs. The reason why everyone uses lots of tools in their work is because the tools are cheaper than the labour cost. Let's say I'm tasked with writing a web-based CRM in C. I can do that, it is just that it will probably take me at least ten times as long as someone writing it in Python. So, if my company is competing against a CRM developed in Python, we will lose out unless my salary is 1/10th or less of the Python guys. In this way, companies are forced to adopt more efficient solutions to remain competetive.
You can see it as a kind of evolution for Market Capitalism. There is evolutionary pressure put on companies in the form of higher salary demands which forced them to adapt or go under. It leads more efficient work places and higher production overall
And that is the reason why Sweden is one of the most robotizied countries in the world and also one of the most unionized. The high salary costs have forced their manufacturing industry to become very efficient and reliant on robotics. The textile industry, on the other hand, has died and moved to South-east Asia. It was to costly to produce clothes. But I don't see anyone grieving for the days when sewing women where working 12 hour shifts and got permanently disabled wrists and broken backs at the age of 40. The same thing happened with the toxic shipping industry. Good riddance.
You Americans and your union hatred will get what is coming for you. Which is economic stagnation as your cheap manual labour won't be able to keep up with the high-cost, high-productivity workforce of other more technologically advanced nations.
I'm a union member and a software developer in Sweden. Roughly 50-70% of my collegaues are unionized. My experiences differ from yours:
the inertia and sloppy work that comes with systems where "seniority" is more important than "ability"
I have never experienced that. Experience is important yes, but it is not the union that decides who gets promoted. It is the boss that does that whether he is stupid or smart, because he has the money.
Almost all professional associations do this, whether it's lawyers, accountants, or plumbers, you can't practice your trade unless they say you can...In Union strong states
There are at least half a dozen professional associations for engineers in the US. Please provide one (1) example of when an engineering association has prevented someone from practicing their trade.
Do you really want a bunch of senior people telling you what qualifications you need to have?
My union has never told me what qualifications I need to have.
Make American IT more expensive and less efficient than everywhere else in the world
And American IT can't be more expensive and less efficient than everywhere else in the world because:
1. American workers are less educated than others.
2. American companies are very hierarchial, making adaptations to new circumstances slow.
3. Patents and gigantic auxilliary legal costs.
4. Poor IT infrastructure.
5. The fact that driving people to work 60h/week with no sick leave and minimal vacations is worse for efficiency than having your staff working regular 40h/week schedules.
???
Now, I hope he goes after county health regulations for FORCE the counties across the country to once and for all MAKE AVAILABLE not only the regulations/ordinances that say what must be done in order to obtain the permits to operate restaurants and businesses, but also to records of WHAT equipment and fixtures are approved.
Are you saying that there are secret regulations not available to the public that they must still follow? How would a building firm know what is an acceptable height for a toilet seat unless that is specified in some regulation? Sounds like you are bullshitting.
Let's say that we go 10,000 years back. Why would a man not screw around as much as possible? And if love existed, who's to say that it lasted for long periods? I remember reading an article that stated that "love" is a chemical reaction that lasts roughly six months, given or take a couple of months. I guess it's enough time to bond and mate.
Because while he was away from his woman she might as well also screw around as much as possible. So for every time he is cheating he must consider the risk that the female does the same and gets pregnant. The outcome might be to only try and screw the hot ones but to leave the ugly be.
Many of the modern SSD's *DO* saturate the bus. The Memoright GT and other SLC flash drives easily push 120-130 meg/sec over sata 150. The key is that the 'cheaper' MLC based drives have horrible write speed, especially when writing bunches of small files. Most users think this won't bother them, until they realize outlook does exactly the same thing when accessing its PST.
Have you measured that? All modern OS:es come with a write cache in memory which makes writing almost instantaneous. When that write cache is full, or when there is available io bandwidth, it is written to the disk. Which is also a very fast operation because the disk itself is equippped with a cache. The disk then writes the data in its cache on its platters asynchronously from the application that originally requested the write.
So even if SDD's are missing a disk cache of their own, the OS still has one. That means that from the applications (and the users) point of view, writes are still instantenous. Sure, overflowing the write cache will force the OS to perform actual slow writes, but "writing bunches of small files" will not cause that.
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It's so slow that my Windows games [steamcommunity.com] running under Crossover games [codeweavers.com]/Wine [winehq.org] which actively translate DXSL to GLSL in real time for a graphics server that isn't even running on ring-0 (like Windows and OS X are) is able to beat both OS X and Windows XP/Vista in performance and quality (I can boot the quality settings right up without performance issues) on the same hardware.
Those games uses Direct
Rendering which mostly bypasses X's rendering layers.
It is interactions with and between windows in X that is slow. E.g. without compositing, each windows framebuffer is not stored in memory. That means that when you unminimize a window it has to repaint itself. When you move a window so that a window beneath it becomes visible, that window has to repaint itself. So when you dragged a window on top of a firefox window showing gmail, that would cause huge rendering artifacts and slowdowns everywhere because the gmail gui is constructed using javascript which firefox had to reinterpret.
In 1986, when 1MB of memory was a shitload, that was a good idea. Storing each windows framebuffer would be wasteful. Today, it is just unbelievably broken. Now we have the composite extension which fixes this particular architecture misdesign.
But there is more left. For example, the window manager structure. When you resize a window, first the window manager has to repaint the frame, then the client also has to repaint itself. Since they can't both repaint themselves at the same time you get flicker. The same thing applies to subwindows, check out how ugly scrollbars in gtk+ redraws when you resize their windows.
Open an explorer window in Windows. Resize it. Notice the flicker and rendering artifacts. Open a Nautilus window in GNOME. Resize it. Notice the horrible flicker and rendering artifacts. This is without compositing. With it, you get other artifacts.
It doesn't matter what program or what machine you are using. You can compare the same thing using Firefox in Windows and Linux. A much slower Windows machine produces redraws with far fewer artifacts than a high-end Linux box. Since Windows does it better, the must be something wrong with X.
Granted this was only way back in 2000, but I lived in St. Clair County, IL. It was a small township called French Village
According to wikipedia, there is no French Village township in St. Clair County. However, google maps finds a park called French Village in East St. Louis in St. Clair County in Caseyville township.
At 8am, the mayor knocked on my door and informed my wife and I it was time to vote
The mayor in Caseyville at that time seem to have been George Chance. So that is the guy that came knocking on your door 8am 2000-11-07 dragging you out to vote? Didn't you have to work or something?
We marched down to the fire station with him and twenty other poor people
Also fishy. The townships population is 4300, why did he choose you and 20 other people? Also, must have been quite a walk. There's not that many fire departments in Caseyville...
Simple answer it isn't. It probably will turn out just like Cuba. With free medical care and higher level of health than currently.
That is very true. Two years ago he was nobody, today he has most of the industrialized world cheering him on. It to silly for me, but I've seen plenty of non-Americans wearing Obama 2008 t-shirts and people reading his biography. In any other country, there wouldn't be a "race" -- Obama would win a 95%+ land-slide victory.
Most Americans are not aware of that fact, and it scares the shit out of me that the people of the most powerful nation in the world can be kept so uninformed. There are the American Republican party that like McCain and there is the rest of the world. Which is not strange considering what his predecessor has done, wars in Afganistan, Iraq, finance crisis, patriot act, Katrina, rejecting Kyoto, etc, etc. What is strange is how people can be so ignorant that they don't understand that if they vote for the Republican candidate, they will get more of the same Republican politics?
I think a world record in collective stupidity was set in 2004 when the US prolonged Bush's regime. How long do you smash your head in the wall before you understand that it hurts?
... they are. Seriously.
Seriously. Yes they are. Any computer literate long time Ubuntu user that has been running Ubuntu since Feisty can testify that it has been getting slower. The performance problems are all over the distro.
I can see several problems with the testing methodology as is: * The test suite itself: The Phoronix test suite runs on PHP. That in itself is a problem-- the slowdowns measured could most likely be *because* of differences in the distributed PHP runtimes. You can't just say "hey, version Y of distro X is slower than version Z! LOLZ" because, WTF. You're pretty much also running different versions of the *test suite* itself (since you have to consider the runtime as part of the test suite). Unless you remove that dependency, then sorry, you can't measure things reliably. Which brings me to my second point...
Or you could just RTFA instead of speculating about possible test methodology failures. The suite is GPL:ed and anyone can reproduce their results if they have the inclination to do so.
Honestly, I was unimpressed by the benchmarks. I happen to do performance benchmarking as part of my job, and I can tell you, you have to eliminate all the variables first -- isolate things to be able to say "X is slow". If you rely on a PHP runtime, use *exactly* the same PHP runtime for all your testing; otherwise, you'll get misleading results.
And I'm honestly unimpressed by you, your fake appeal to authority and the rest of the commentators who apparently has no idea about what testing is. The PHP runtime is used for aggregating test results. If it takes 60 seconds to encode an mp3, then what version of the PHP runtime used won't matter.
For example, one possible culprit is CFS which were added in, I think 8.04. A feature that on a micro scale might look very attractive (run 10 infinite while loops simultaneously without them starving each other), but which on a macro scale might have disastrous consequences (mouse pointer movement becomes sluggish when unpacking rar files).
What are you talking about? I have downloaded JDK:s and JRE:s from java.sun.com probably hundreds of times and never been prompted to install OO too. Is this a new feature or something?
If you need to be told by a report that internet makes instant communication possible, then I don't think you should be in change of something important. Sentiments like that is exactly what gives you presidents who cant locate the countries they want to invade on a map.
That's about as smart as saying that you can't test the theory of evolution because we didn't have two identical earths from 2 million years ago so we cant verify that species evolve. Most of science works using models and any basic chemistry lab can verify that increased levels of CO2 reflects more light of certain wavelengths which lead to higher temperatures. Any more professional biology lab can verify that organisms evolve by growing bacteria for a few days.
This is good news. There are many distributions that just take the latest and greatest of every package without doing proper quality control (Ubuntu, Gentoo, Fedora, etc). The price they pay is regressions and stuff that doesn't work. There needs to be distros like Debian which, while always delayed, has all the important bugs ironed out.
You guys have a really freaking huge advantage in being naitive English speakers. Maybe you mostly suck at writing code, maybe your maths aren't that bright. But you still can speak and write English fluently. That alone should be enough to land you in for example a French company where I can guarantee you that most of the coders basically can say "hi" in English if even that. Use that, that is your unique selling proposition that most noone can match.
60nm parts have 25% more area in which to absorb electrons and 25% more dielectric between elements than a 45nm part, so of course they could handle more voltage without damage. It's a design flaw in material physics, not the processor.
And that looks like a fault in your calculation. 45^2 = 2025, 60^2 = 3600. 3600/2025 = 1.78. So 60 nm parts have 78% more area.
I'm surprised you didn't talk to a lawyer as you are potentially eligible to a percentage of the profits your patents generated. Contrary to popular belief, companies does not automatically take ownership of the patents their employees file.
Who is making this shit up? Just because people repeat that lie doesn't make it true. Belonging to a union does not take away your freedom or any opportunities.
I'm far from a marketing expert but.. In the commercial he has bad body posture, negative body language, sad facial expression, greasy hair, squeaky voice, unfitting boring clothes. The only message I get is that's how depressing and sad your dead-end life becomes with Microsoft and not even knowing a cool dude like Jerry Seinfeld can save you.
Erlang is merely an implementation that makes realizing those basic design principles simple because processes have virtually zero overhead so you get fault isolation and recoverability for free. In other environments implementing the same "basic design principles" is complicated and carries a lot of overhead. Which is why most browsers aren't built around the multi-process model.
Seems like they have taken a leaf of Erlang wisdom here. If you were to write a browser in Erlang, using one (Erlang) process per tab is exactly the way you would have written it. I think it shows that designing software for robustness, something that previously mostly was done for high availability enterprise systems is now reaching the desktop.
Wouldn't surprise me if the next cool browser innovation will be hot code swapping so that you won't have to close all your 5324 tabs just to install the latest browser security fix. At which point they have reinvented Erlang. :)
Worst Slashvertisement ever!
Define "real hard drive." :) Yes, the cache flush command is in the ATA spec and has been mandatory for many years, still doesn't mean that all disks support it.
That is completely right. But in addition, there is also the hdd's own disk cache. That is, all data going to the disk is cached twice. fsync() time is mostly irrelevant though because fsync can not force the hard disk to flush its cache (see fsync's man page for details). Which can be very irritating because many disks doesn't allow you to turn off the disk cache so no matter what you do, there just is no way to guarantee data consistency in case of a power failure.
Incorrect. Unions help industries adapt and become more efficient. By developing best practicies and especially by increasing the salary costs. The reason why everyone uses lots of tools in their work is because the tools are cheaper than the labour cost. Let's say I'm tasked with writing a web-based CRM in C. I can do that, it is just that it will probably take me at least ten times as long as someone writing it in Python. So, if my company is competing against a CRM developed in Python, we will lose out unless my salary is 1/10th or less of the Python guys. In this way, companies are forced to adopt more efficient solutions to remain competetive.
You can see it as a kind of evolution for Market Capitalism. There is evolutionary pressure put on companies in the form of higher salary demands which forced them to adapt or go under. It leads more efficient work places and higher production overall
And that is the reason why Sweden is one of the most robotizied countries in the world and also one of the most unionized. The high salary costs have forced their manufacturing industry to become very efficient and reliant on robotics. The textile industry, on the other hand, has died and moved to South-east Asia. It was to costly to produce clothes. But I don't see anyone grieving for the days when sewing women where working 12 hour shifts and got permanently disabled wrists and broken backs at the age of 40. The same thing happened with the toxic shipping industry. Good riddance.
You Americans and your union hatred will get what is coming for you. Which is economic stagnation as your cheap manual labour won't be able to keep up with the high-cost, high-productivity workforce of other more technologically advanced nations.
the inertia and sloppy work that comes with systems where "seniority" is more important than "ability"
I have never experienced that. Experience is important yes, but it is not the union that decides who gets promoted. It is the boss that does that whether he is stupid or smart, because he has the money.
Almost all professional associations do this, whether it's lawyers, accountants, or plumbers, you can't practice your trade unless they say you can...In Union strong states
There are at least half a dozen professional associations for engineers in the US. Please provide one (1) example of when an engineering association has prevented someone from practicing their trade.
Do you really want a bunch of senior people telling you what qualifications you need to have?
My union has never told me what qualifications I need to have.
Make American IT more expensive and less efficient than everywhere else in the world
And American IT can't be more expensive and less efficient than everywhere else in the world because:
1. American workers are less educated than others.
2. American companies are very hierarchial, making adaptations to new circumstances slow.
3. Patents and gigantic auxilliary legal costs.
4. Poor IT infrastructure.
5. The fact that driving people to work 60h/week with no sick leave and minimal vacations is worse for efficiency than having your staff working regular 40h/week schedules.
???
Now, I hope he goes after county health regulations for FORCE the counties across the country to once and for all MAKE AVAILABLE not only the regulations/ordinances that say what must be done in order to obtain the permits to operate restaurants and businesses, but also to records of WHAT equipment and fixtures are approved.
Are you saying that there are secret regulations not available to the public that they must still follow? How would a building firm know what is an acceptable height for a toilet seat unless that is specified in some regulation? Sounds like you are bullshitting.
Let's say that we go 10,000 years back. Why would a man not screw around as much as possible? And if love existed, who's to say that it lasted for long periods? I remember reading an article that stated that "love" is a chemical reaction that lasts roughly six months, given or take a couple of months. I guess it's enough time to bond and mate.
Because while he was away from his woman she might as well also screw around as much as possible. So for every time he is cheating he must consider the risk that the female does the same and gets pregnant. The outcome might be to only try and screw the hot ones but to leave the ugly be.
Many of the modern SSD's *DO* saturate the bus. The Memoright GT and other SLC flash drives easily push 120-130 meg/sec over sata 150. The key is that the 'cheaper' MLC based drives have horrible write speed, especially when writing bunches of small files. Most users think this won't bother them, until they realize outlook does exactly the same thing when accessing its PST.
Have you measured that? All modern OS:es come with a write cache in memory which makes writing almost instantaneous. When that write cache is full, or when there is available io bandwidth, it is written to the disk. Which is also a very fast operation because the disk itself is equippped with a cache. The disk then writes the data in its cache on its platters asynchronously from the application that originally requested the write.
So even if SDD's are missing a disk cache of their own, the OS still has one. That means that from the applications (and the users) point of view, writes are still instantenous. Sure, overflowing the write cache will force the OS to perform actual slow writes, but "writing bunches of small files" will not cause that.