Trust me when I say you can come up with new curses faster than you can code them into an automatic censorship proram...
Nevermind all the fantastic new accents this is going to promote. And if you disagree; well quck you.
Oh, not just accents. Entire new sub-languages will appear. This reminds me of a story a friend tells.
When this friend of mine was young, his parents had sent him to a private christian school. Some time around the middle of grade eight, his school's administration decided that negative words and phrases were to be banned. So you couldn't say "this sucks", or "darn" or stuff like that (outright swearing was, of course, already banned). Anyway, before the week had ended the students had switched to sarcastically praising whatever it is they were being negative about. Of course, the school administrators then cracked down on that. The story goes on a while, and it's much more entertaining when my friend is telling it, but suffice it to say that the students won, shortly after they got the idea to replace exclamations of anger/dismay/negativity with quotations from the and-ye-shall-smite-them-with-X portions of the Bible. Apparently some pastor's son brought the new behavior home one day, and his dad threw a fit and made them stop the idiocy.
If people have something to say, they'll find a way to say it.
Do you think the number is significantly higher than 1 in 500?
Given the people I know, and the people who's computers I used to fix, and the people I used to sell video games to, yes. Granted, my experience is limited to my friends and the sales/service numbers at the retail store I used to work at, but even assuming that what I've seen is fairly heavily biased towards cases where someone would run into DRM, it seems to me that it should be closer to the 1-3% range than the 0.2% they claim. Meh. I'm probably wrong.
How do you figure that? Say you need 1000 servers (7TB each) to store the data. At say $3000 a pop (overly generous) that's only 3 million dollars a week or 156 million dollars a year. Chump change for any industrial state.
Yes, but when you add in the cost of all the laptops, cell phones, PDAs, and USB thumb drives they'll have to copy this data onto, and the salaries of the people who will then have to go out and find creative new ways to lose those laptops on the metro or at a bar, then the costs become truly astronomical...
What do you expect EA would tell a bunch of Wall Street types? "We screwed the pooch and a bunch of people went after us for it" or "everything is fine, we're a great place to send your money!"
Well, yeah, but still, this seems like a bad time to present obviously made-up statistics to investors. I mean, wouldn't they be a bit sensitive about that sort of thing these days? Eh, maybe not, I don't know how Wall Street really works...
Now it is always possible that I happen to belong to a really, really outside group, but not likely based on their BS statistics.
How outside of a group can we really be?
Most PC gamers I know are constantly reinstalling their games/systems because their hard drive gets full (fast drives tend to be either small or too expensive), because the game corrupts itself every now and then (hello WoW, Civ), because a patch destroys the game, because game A's DRM conflicted with game B's DRM (don't get me started), or because they simply upgraded their machine yet again. I know a surprising amount that reinstall every two months or so simply because their overpriced name brand machines (*cough* Alienware *cough*) keep breaking and going to the repair shop, from whence they often come with wiped HDD's. Many of them, by virtue of upgrading all the time, or having married other gamers or having gamer children, have multiple machines and/or laptops, and so of course they're gonna want to install multiple times. These people tend to be media junkies, and so obviously they'll have CD/DVD burners on their systems.
Granted, I don't know every PC gamer, but I know quite a few, and I used to work at a store that sells video games, and I'm be fairly confident saying that while such people may not be a majority, we're certainly not a mere 0.2%. Hell, the install in multiple places crowd is obviously big enough that Valve actually bothered to make the ability to do that into a feature of Steam...
Tell me, how are these people not going to be annoyed by bullshit DRM?
Hey. At least they didn't outright call us pirates. Actually, come to think of it, they probably wanted to say pirates, but couldn't because 0.02% goes nowhere near explaining the level of piracy they like whine and bitch about.
Ok, outside the copyright debate, am I the only one that is extremely skeptical when someone is the "czar" of something? What the hell does that actually mean, and what can they actually do?
It means you're in Soviet Russia.
Pre-Soviet Russia, actually. Soviet Russia is what happens when the Czars are so hated that there's a revolution.
Don't you watch the news? There is no sedition in Western nations. There are only consumers, harmless foil-clad lunatics, criminals, and a few terrorists.
But yeah, cynical statements aside, there's less control here because the government simply doesn't fear us. Honestly, I could wear my fingers to the bone blogging about $700B bailouts, Iraq, Guantanamo, torture, the politicization of the DoJ, the Valerie Plame thing, etc, and nothing would happen to me because honestly my voice is worthless when it comes to these topics. People have seen it on the news so many times that the reaction is just, "Meh, shit happens." and nothing changes. Random words on the internet won't start riots, strikes, or boycotts, nor do they change anyone's vote in a meaningful way (how could they? elections are a popularity contest) - so why bother censoring?
To Jeffrey Kaplan (aka Tigole), game director for World of Warcraft: I notice that in a lot of ways the next expansion is almost throwing out the old WoW systems and replacing them with something radically (for WoW) new (much of the class balance, getting rid of the CC/DPS distinction, gear consolidation, etc). What's it like to commit to making such a big change when you've got a hard deadline to meet and millions of fans who'll hunt you down:) if you wreck the game? How do you evaluate whether it's going to be a good thing or not before committing however many resources it takes to redo (and then test) things?
The first couple of examples are outlawed because, if everyone did them, the business model would fall apart and we (society) would lose things that we value - The same logic used for copyright enforcement.
One small nitpick here. Subways, museums and theaters are selling the use of a finite resource (a spot on the train/the space in their building). A person that sneaks in without paying is actually robbing the company in that they cause wear on the train/building for which the operator is not compensated, and they take up space, physically preventing paying customers from using it. At the very least they force the company to pay more for security to throw out the thieves at peak hours so that the actual paying customers can ride the train/view some art. A copied song, on the other hand, is made at the infringer's expense and maybe costs the artist a potential sale.
Yeah, I was doing dishes in a sink at 5 (had to stand on a chair). My mom tells me it took a few tries for her to get me to stop missing spots and rinse all the soap off, but I was fine after that and I never even broke a dish. At my grandmother's house I spent hours helping her with the garden (pulling weeds, carrying dead plants over to the compost heap, etc). I was doing all sorts of chores at a young age - and I didn't mind at all because the sooner things got done the sooner I'd get to do something with my parents, and honestly doing something useful felt good. The only other option was sitting in the other room alone, playing with my toys while they did everything, and that's pretty dull.
It's funny because I was actually curious if anyone would take the topic in the direction of blaming it on the country.
I'm sorry, but where exactly did I write, "This has to be a scam because Bulgaria is a shitty country"? I don't remember writing that. I did suggest that the company might see this as an opportunity to get work outside of the country - which, according to my friends, relatives, and everyone I've talked to when I've gone to visit, does actually happen, a lot. I suggested that it might be a scam - that also happens a lot. So, again, "Knowing how things are in that country, neither would surprise me in the least..." doesn't mean, "All Bulgarians are thieves," it means, literally, it wouldn't surprise me if the company soon relocates to another country or suddenly vanishes because that sort of thing happens a lot.
That would not make sense since the topic was about some not-so-good open-source software that is now being developed by someone else and might become closed-source. The country that will be developing the new piece of software doesn't really matter.
Wait, you're upset because this thread is off-topic? Welcome to Slashdot...
Now, you're trying to impose your self-proclaimed expert opinion on the Anonymous Coward (and to the people reading this post) that basically says that Bulgaria is, essentially, full of shit. Why?
He called me a douche, I suggested that he doesn't know what he's talking about. Nothing more. And I'm not imposing my opinion on him until I go over to his house and somehow force him into agreement. Being rude to him on the internet doesn't count as force.
As for the grade of my opinion, I never made any assertions about that at all. Yeah, I do think I know better than what the AC wrote, but it's still pretty clear that I'm an expatriate Bulgarian with ties to the country, as opposed to an expert, as you put it. The people reading this site tend to be bright enough to notice stuff like that - they're not going to be overly confused (well, maybe the editors...).
It's not that bad in Bulgaria at all.
Compared to what? I mean, it's nowhere near the bottom of my list of places to live, but it doesn't even begin to compare to the West. I assume you live there, or have many friends there, or something since you seem to be very sure of your statement. If that's the case and that's your opinion then fine. Why don't you elaborate on it, and maybe teach me something I didn't know, rather than laughing at me for being bitter about the state of the country I wish I could make a decent life in? I still find the assertion that we have it worse off in the West because some banks fucked up their investments ridiculous, especially when it's backed up by the sort of vagueish statements that one would find in the Western media.
That must mean the bulgarian company that was given money to develop software are all scammers...
Again, I never actually stated that. Not as anything but my opinion on what might be happening.
...because they are trying to actually make some profit? Those bastards...
And there you're just putting words in my mouth. Again. Stop doing that, please.
What's strange about a Bulgarian commenting on Bulgaria, positively or otherwise? Americans seem to say all sorts of things about the USA all the time, and nobody seems surprised about that...
Izvinjavajte mnogo, no vie kakvo mislite che znaete za Bulgaria? Vie Bulgari li ste? Zhiveete li tam?*
Anyways, since you know so much more than a Bulgarian would, why don't you go on and tell me:
Are the vast majority of the buildings in our capital cities literally falling apart while still inhabited?
Do underground areas in large cities usually flood because nobody bothered to pay someone to clean out the storm drains?
Do water mains blow out, leaving large cities without water for days, several times in a six month period?
Is the national average on our standardized tests hovering in the 35-30% range?
Do city governments commonly permit historic parks to be redeveloped into condos (90% of which will sell to foreigners) above the very vocal objections of pretty much the entire local population?
Are health inspectors so badly paid that they take bribes all over the place, making eating out at a new place a gamble every time?
Is our government too busy siphoning the national budget into their own personal accounts, without even pretending to be spending it on useful things which at least create some jobs along the way, to do anything about anything at all?
Do big companies freely take monopoly positions, do they form cartels and fix the prices of everything from food to energy without so much as token opposition from the government?
Does the mafia go around doing whatever they want, killing anyone that speaks too loudly against them, without fear of reprisal?
And those are just a fraction of the headlines I read and the things I saw when I went back to visit my relatives for a few weeks this summer. You go get a clue yourself, buddy. Economic growth means nothing when the numbers come from a country run by a government that makes the old communists look like good, honest men with noble intentions.
* Goddamn/. making me write that in the wrong alphabet...
They just as likely want to get paid in a currency that isn't Leva, make a name for themselves doing this, and get the hell out of Bulgaria along with all the other Bulgarian talent. Or maybe it's a total scam. Knowing how things are in that country, neither would surprise me in the least...
Gah, now I've gone and depressed myself thinking about it.
Ladies and gentlemen, my opponent wants to take away your electrons! If you value your molecular bonds - and what true patriot doesn't? - you will vote against these anti-electronist policies!
If God stops people from doing any and all bad things, we live in something like an MMO full of invisible walls--you can try to go certain places, you just can't.
Sounds horrible, doesn't it. Which is probably why hell is supposed to be full of such ridiculous amounts of suffering - it has to be worse than the hideous boredom of the eternal MMO, else who would want to go to heaven?
Don't know about Europe. I paid for some of my schooling working for an accounting/bookkeeping firm and it's exactly the same in Canada. And for good reason - electronic transactions tend to be very badly documented when the statements come in.
See, to your average employee, cheques are money. And they look expensive and important - colorful, sometimes embossed, and always printed on nice thick paper with all sorts of official looking markings on them. So they tend to be carefully written, and carefully folded, and carried safely until they reach the bank. When they come back they're full of all sorts of useful information like the memo field, and the bank's stamp so you know what date it was processed on.
Receipts, on the other hand, are fiddly little pieces of paper that people stuff into random pockets, hoping they'll remember to hand them to the office girl before they head out to the work site the next morning. They go missing. Sometimes you're lucky and they do get handed to the office girl, who then dutifully stuffs them into that week's/month's/quarter's (depending on the business) box (if, that is, the phone doesn't ring causing her to put them down somewhere where they'll be forgotten). If you're even luckier that box won't be placed next to a heater or left in a hot car (hooray for thermal paper receipts!). Super bonus points if they make it all the way to the accountant in one uncrumpled, unstained piece. When they don't, well, good luck figuring out whether "debit transaction, Costco" is an office expense, a pile of promotional gifts, or the owner forgetting the difference between his personal account and that of his business (this happens a lot).
And this isn't Joe Random's home business. This is standard procedure for pretty much everything below the giant corporation with nation-wide operations level. Home builders, oil service companies, stores (not chains, but still pretty big companies), regional shipping companies - all of them the same. Obviously multi-million dollar transfers aren't going to be in the same category, but for a plethora of small expenses (that add up to a lot by year's end) this is just the way it goes.
Slashdot Mirror
Trust me when I say you can come up with new curses faster than you can code them into an automatic censorship proram...
Nevermind all the fantastic new accents this is going to promote. And if you disagree; well quck you.
Oh, not just accents. Entire new sub-languages will appear. This reminds me of a story a friend tells.
When this friend of mine was young, his parents had sent him to a private christian school. Some time around the middle of grade eight, his school's administration decided that negative words and phrases were to be banned. So you couldn't say "this sucks", or "darn" or stuff like that (outright swearing was, of course, already banned). Anyway, before the week had ended the students had switched to sarcastically praising whatever it is they were being negative about. Of course, the school administrators then cracked down on that. The story goes on a while, and it's much more entertaining when my friend is telling it, but suffice it to say that the students won, shortly after they got the idea to replace exclamations of anger/dismay/negativity with quotations from the and-ye-shall-smite-them-with-X portions of the Bible. Apparently some pastor's son brought the new behavior home one day, and his dad threw a fit and made them stop the idiocy.
If people have something to say, they'll find a way to say it.
Do you think the number is significantly higher than 1 in 500?
Given the people I know, and the people who's computers I used to fix, and the people I used to sell video games to, yes. Granted, my experience is limited to my friends and the sales/service numbers at the retail store I used to work at, but even assuming that what I've seen is fairly heavily biased towards cases where someone would run into DRM, it seems to me that it should be closer to the 1-3% range than the 0.2% they claim. Meh. I'm probably wrong.
How do you figure that? Say you need 1000 servers (7TB each) to store the data. At say $3000 a pop (overly generous) that's only 3 million dollars a week or 156 million dollars a year. Chump change for any industrial state.
Yes, but when you add in the cost of all the laptops, cell phones, PDAs, and USB thumb drives they'll have to copy this data onto, and the salaries of the people who will then have to go out and find creative new ways to lose those laptops on the metro or at a bar, then the costs become truly astronomical...
What do you expect EA would tell a bunch of Wall Street types? "We screwed the pooch and a bunch of people went after us for it" or "everything is fine, we're a great place to send your money!"
Well, yeah, but still, this seems like a bad time to present obviously made-up statistics to investors. I mean, wouldn't they be a bit sensitive about that sort of thing these days? Eh, maybe not, I don't know how Wall Street really works...
Now it is always possible that I happen to belong to a really, really outside group, but not likely based on their BS statistics.
How outside of a group can we really be?
Most PC gamers I know are constantly reinstalling their games/systems because their hard drive gets full (fast drives tend to be either small or too expensive), because the game corrupts itself every now and then (hello WoW, Civ), because a patch destroys the game, because game A's DRM conflicted with game B's DRM (don't get me started), or because they simply upgraded their machine yet again. I know a surprising amount that reinstall every two months or so simply because their overpriced name brand machines (*cough* Alienware *cough*) keep breaking and going to the repair shop, from whence they often come with wiped HDD's. Many of them, by virtue of upgrading all the time, or having married other gamers or having gamer children, have multiple machines and/or laptops, and so of course they're gonna want to install multiple times. These people tend to be media junkies, and so obviously they'll have CD/DVD burners on their systems.
Granted, I don't know every PC gamer, but I know quite a few, and I used to work at a store that sells video games, and I'm be fairly confident saying that while such people may not be a majority, we're certainly not a mere 0.2%. Hell, the install in multiple places crowd is obviously big enough that Valve actually bothered to make the ability to do that into a feature of Steam...
Tell me, how are these people not going to be annoyed by bullshit DRM?
Hey. At least they didn't outright call us pirates. Actually, come to think of it, they probably wanted to say pirates, but couldn't because 0.02% goes nowhere near explaining the level of piracy they like whine and bitch about.
Ok, outside the copyright debate, am I the only one that is extremely skeptical when someone is the "czar" of something? What the hell does that actually mean, and what can they actually do?
It means you're in Soviet Russia.
Pre-Soviet Russia, actually. Soviet Russia is what happens when the Czars are so hated that there's a revolution.
Putting loud-speakers inside your ear and listening to music in too high volume for extended periods of time has been linked to hearing loss
<loud>WHAT?</loud>
SOMETHING ABOUT PUTTING CLOUD SNEAKERS INSIDE YOUR BEER I THINK!
SHOOTING CROWD SQUEAKERS ON A PIER? THAT MAKES NO SENSE AT ALL! ARE YOU DRUNK?!
Only if they also bar the wink.
He's been immortalized in song.
Yet.
But we have an extradition treaty with the US, and have requested his repatriation through official channels. So how come he's still at Gitmo?
Because Canada's wishes are irrelevant?
Truly you are a modern day Nostradamus.
Yes, but does he have a newsletter?
Don't you watch the news? There is no sedition in Western nations. There are only consumers, harmless foil-clad lunatics, criminals, and a few terrorists.
But yeah, cynical statements aside, there's less control here because the government simply doesn't fear us. Honestly, I could wear my fingers to the bone blogging about $700B bailouts, Iraq, Guantanamo, torture, the politicization of the DoJ, the Valerie Plame thing, etc, and nothing would happen to me because honestly my voice is worthless when it comes to these topics. People have seen it on the news so many times that the reaction is just, "Meh, shit happens." and nothing changes. Random words on the internet won't start riots, strikes, or boycotts, nor do they change anyone's vote in a meaningful way (how could they? elections are a popularity contest) - so why bother censoring?
To Jeffrey Kaplan (aka Tigole), game director for World of Warcraft: I notice that in a lot of ways the next expansion is almost throwing out the old WoW systems and replacing them with something radically (for WoW) new (much of the class balance, getting rid of the CC/DPS distinction, gear consolidation, etc). What's it like to commit to making such a big change when you've got a hard deadline to meet and millions of fans who'll hunt you down :) if you wreck the game? How do you evaluate whether it's going to be a good thing or not before committing however many resources it takes to redo (and then test) things?
The first couple of examples are outlawed because, if everyone did them, the business model would fall apart and we (society) would lose things that we value - The same logic used for copyright enforcement.
One small nitpick here. Subways, museums and theaters are selling the use of a finite resource (a spot on the train/the space in their building). A person that sneaks in without paying is actually robbing the company in that they cause wear on the train/building for which the operator is not compensated, and they take up space, physically preventing paying customers from using it. At the very least they force the company to pay more for security to throw out the thieves at peak hours so that the actual paying customers can ride the train/view some art. A copied song, on the other hand, is made at the infringer's expense and maybe costs the artist a potential sale.
Yeah, I was doing dishes in a sink at 5 (had to stand on a chair). My mom tells me it took a few tries for her to get me to stop missing spots and rinse all the soap off, but I was fine after that and I never even broke a dish. At my grandmother's house I spent hours helping her with the garden (pulling weeds, carrying dead plants over to the compost heap, etc). I was doing all sorts of chores at a young age - and I didn't mind at all because the sooner things got done the sooner I'd get to do something with my parents, and honestly doing something useful felt good. The only other option was sitting in the other room alone, playing with my toys while they did everything, and that's pretty dull.
It's funny because I was actually curious if anyone would take the topic in the direction of blaming it on the country.
I'm sorry, but where exactly did I write, "This has to be a scam because Bulgaria is a shitty country"? I don't remember writing that. I did suggest that the company might see this as an opportunity to get work outside of the country - which, according to my friends, relatives, and everyone I've talked to when I've gone to visit, does actually happen, a lot. I suggested that it might be a scam - that also happens a lot. So, again, "Knowing how things are in that country, neither would surprise me in the least..." doesn't mean, "All Bulgarians are thieves," it means, literally, it wouldn't surprise me if the company soon relocates to another country or suddenly vanishes because that sort of thing happens a lot.
That would not make sense since the topic was about some not-so-good open-source software that is now being developed by someone else and might become closed-source.
The country that will be developing the new piece of software doesn't really matter.
Wait, you're upset because this thread is off-topic? Welcome to Slashdot...
Now, you're trying to impose your self-proclaimed expert opinion on the Anonymous Coward (and to the people reading this post) that basically says that Bulgaria is, essentially, full of shit.
Why?
He called me a douche, I suggested that he doesn't know what he's talking about. Nothing more. And I'm not imposing my opinion on him until I go over to his house and somehow force him into agreement. Being rude to him on the internet doesn't count as force.
As for the grade of my opinion, I never made any assertions about that at all. Yeah, I do think I know better than what the AC wrote, but it's still pretty clear that I'm an expatriate Bulgarian with ties to the country, as opposed to an expert, as you put it. The people reading this site tend to be bright enough to notice stuff like that - they're not going to be overly confused (well, maybe the editors...).
It's not that bad in Bulgaria at all.
Compared to what? I mean, it's nowhere near the bottom of my list of places to live, but it doesn't even begin to compare to the West. I assume you live there, or have many friends there, or something since you seem to be very sure of your statement. If that's the case and that's your opinion then fine. Why don't you elaborate on it, and maybe teach me something I didn't know, rather than laughing at me for being bitter about the state of the country I wish I could make a decent life in? I still find the assertion that we have it worse off in the West because some banks fucked up their investments ridiculous, especially when it's backed up by the sort of vagueish statements that one would find in the Western media.
That must mean the bulgarian company that was given money to develop software are all scammers...
Again, I never actually stated that. Not as anything but my opinion on what might be happening.
...because they are trying to actually make some profit?
Those bastards...
And there you're just putting words in my mouth. Again. Stop doing that, please.
What's strange about a Bulgarian commenting on Bulgaria, positively or otherwise? Americans seem to say all sorts of things about the USA all the time, and nobody seems surprised about that...
Izvinjavajte mnogo, no vie kakvo mislite che znaete za Bulgaria? Vie Bulgari li ste? Zhiveete li tam?*
Anyways, since you know so much more than a Bulgarian would, why don't you go on and tell me:
And those are just a fraction of the headlines I read and the things I saw when I went back to visit my relatives for a few weeks this summer. You go get a clue yourself, buddy. Economic growth means nothing when the numbers come from a country run by a government that makes the old communists look like good, honest men with noble intentions.
* Goddamn /. making me write that in the wrong alphabet...
They just as likely want to get paid in a currency that isn't Leva, make a name for themselves doing this, and get the hell out of Bulgaria along with all the other Bulgarian talent. Or maybe it's a total scam. Knowing how things are in that country, neither would surprise me in the least...
Gah, now I've gone and depressed myself thinking about it.
If I am elected, all charges will be positive.
Ladies and gentlemen, my opponent wants to take away your electrons! If you value your molecular bonds - and what true patriot doesn't? - you will vote against these anti-electronist policies!
Editors...editing? On Slashdot?! You tell such sweet lies...
If God stops people from doing any and all bad things, we live in something like an MMO full of invisible walls--you can try to go certain places, you just can't.
Sounds horrible, doesn't it. Which is probably why hell is supposed to be full of such ridiculous amounts of suffering - it has to be worse than the hideous boredom of the eternal MMO, else who would want to go to heaven?
Don't know about Europe. I paid for some of my schooling working for an accounting/bookkeeping firm and it's exactly the same in Canada. And for good reason - electronic transactions tend to be very badly documented when the statements come in.
See, to your average employee, cheques are money. And they look expensive and important - colorful, sometimes embossed, and always printed on nice thick paper with all sorts of official looking markings on them. So they tend to be carefully written, and carefully folded, and carried safely until they reach the bank. When they come back they're full of all sorts of useful information like the memo field, and the bank's stamp so you know what date it was processed on.
Receipts, on the other hand, are fiddly little pieces of paper that people stuff into random pockets, hoping they'll remember to hand them to the office girl before they head out to the work site the next morning. They go missing. Sometimes you're lucky and they do get handed to the office girl, who then dutifully stuffs them into that week's/month's/quarter's (depending on the business) box (if, that is, the phone doesn't ring causing her to put them down somewhere where they'll be forgotten). If you're even luckier that box won't be placed next to a heater or left in a hot car (hooray for thermal paper receipts!). Super bonus points if they make it all the way to the accountant in one uncrumpled, unstained piece. When they don't, well, good luck figuring out whether "debit transaction, Costco" is an office expense, a pile of promotional gifts, or the owner forgetting the difference between his personal account and that of his business (this happens a lot).
And this isn't Joe Random's home business. This is standard procedure for pretty much everything below the giant corporation with nation-wide operations level. Home builders, oil service companies, stores (not chains, but still pretty big companies), regional shipping companies - all of them the same. Obviously multi-million dollar transfers aren't going to be in the same category, but for a plethora of small expenses (that add up to a lot by year's end) this is just the way it goes.