The cynic within immediately asks 'who gains ?' from reducing the number of users on your site by denying traffic from what is essentially a free referral service. It doesn't seem to make any sense... If the story was being copied verbatim, and the source-site was losing ad revenue then there's just cause to block the copying site, but in this case Linux Today is only posting excerpts containing links...
So, what gain can there be ? Does the process of having an outcry against you, then acquiescing to public demand (becoming a 'good guy' again) give you a sufficiently high profile that it's worth losing some page-views temporarily ? I think that it might....
Simon the cynic.
Re:Nicest thing for me is the nanode
on
Cebit 2004 Coverage
·
· Score: 1, Interesting
[shudder] Thanks! You've just reminded me what it was like to share a 1-mips machine with 70 other people, running an abortion of an operating system, and with a C compiler that made up code for you when you had syntax errors.
God, I'm going for a lie down!
Simon.
Nicest thing for me is the nanode
on
Cebit 2004 Coverage
·
· Score: 4, Interesting
a gorgeous box using the nano-itx layout referred to earlier on/. I think a set-top box is coming my way:-)
I'd guess that NWA (Niggers With Attitude) will never be played again then, even their name probably breaks the rules; as for thier 'Fuck the motherfucking police', well, I doubt that'll ever see the light of day:-) Guess you guys won't get 'Roger Melly, the man on telly' any more either (if you ever did)
Over here in the UK, the thinking seems to be leaning to more leniency rather than more crackdown. There's an article on the BBC site asking 'Has swearing lost its power to outrage' talking about on-screen profanity...
[note: this could be construed as a plug. Perhaps it even is, re-reading. You have been warned]
My company (7 of us in total) wrote an asset management system used on a major film in a previous life (we were called 'unique-id' then). We were given the option of being paid and not disclosing the film, or not being paid and letting everyone know which one. It was a *big* film - we took the getting paid option, so you'll have to guess which:-)
The rushes coming in totalled 40 DTF tapes per working day over several months, several hundred million images in all. The same system was used on the 'The world was not enough' trailer, where the large quantities of mostly-naked women gyrating around with oil being poured on them suddenly made the visualisation tools *far* better than they used to be...
Every image (every frame) was accessible and searchable, notes could be made and a proxy version played back over the net. It was completely automated - logging was done by simply untarring the data-tape or playing the rfid-labelled video tape, with metadata being inferred from path names or rfid tag, all very simple and very effective. Everything was written using OSS tools, mainly PHP and MySQL (and yes, we paid for our MySQL licences:-) You could do things like drag an image out of IE/Moz and drop into 'Shake', with Shake being instructed to load the real footage not the proxy version you were looking at in the browser - this image-based-project-load alone saved enormous time when you're dealing with millions of images.
FTFA: (and given the US penchant for 'friendly fire' incidents...)
There have been all sorts of silliness happening from the usual groups, including claims that the Beagle II failed because the U.S. shot it down
Oh come on, laugh. It's silly AND funny!
More seriously, why is it that the US seems to get more than its fair share of crackpots like this guy? Is it just because they're more able to make themselves heard (high tech, relatively rich society), or is it [tin hat] something more sinister [/tin hat] ? Perhaps it just seems that way from over here in the UK (officially the worlds least-likely to believe the walking-on-water and rising-from-the-dead thing - can't find the link though it was a bbc report recently), but there seem to be more potential tin-hatters from across the pond than just about anywhere else, even if you take into account the population differences (the US is less than 5x the UK...)
Ignoring the various 'Good God what else could they do' responses, do yuo *really* care about the 10 seconds or so it takes to come out of hibernation mode ? Enough to want DRM h/w on your machine ?
It is essential to have a precedent which will establish clear principles for the future conduct of a company with such a strong dominant position in the market.
Steve Balmer rushed over in a last-ditch attempt to try and come to a deal, but the commissioner apparently demanded even-tougher remedies if a negative precedent was not to be set...
The fine is expected to be between 67 million UK pounds, and 670 million UK pounds . Ouch. That's a fair old amount of latitude in the range, but even MS would presumably rather not pay a billion-dollar fine. I know their cash reserves are up in the 40 billion dollar range, but even so it has to hurt. I'd expect the commission to fine them again if they don't do as they're told, as well....
According to the article there are normally 2 of these every year. It seems a bit tongue-in-cheek to say "The important thing is not that it's happening, but that we detected it" [Chesley]. They were lucky, that's all.
It *will* give them a chance to study the thing as it passes, since all the other ones were only detected after they'd gone (and presumably therefore couldn't be easily studied). If it's close enough to see with binoculars, it ought to be possible to resolve quite well in a good optical 'scope.
The other point I guess is that it's only 100 ft across (why not 30m ?) so it would have burnt up on entry into the atmosphere, but still, good to know about these things. An asteroid that big would make quite some bang on entering the atmosphere, I reckon:-)
Back in April 2002, the UK government started to fund a centre studying both the near-earth-orbit rocks we know about, and ways of increasing awareness and detection rates, as well as investigating possible protection strategies.
Personally I think it's just playing at people-politics, at least in the form the UK has done it $600k isn't going to go very far, but it's a relatively cheap purchase of public goodwill... On the other hand, at the moment I'll take what we can get.
There's a tiny chance of life as we know it being destroyed. A really tiny chance, and one thing humans aren't good at is disaster-planning - even when the potential result is extinction, the "gut-feeling" is to say "it'll never happen", because none of us have any experience of it happening. This is short-sighted, we should be doing something.
Although I don't think there's any reason to panic about it, the last great ecosystem was destroyed by (perhaps two, perhaps 1) asteroid, as far as we know. Researching, thinking, creating plans would probably be a good idea, at least IMHO.
When people first heard the WotW broadcast, they thought it was a real Martian invasion. There was widespread panic (mainly I think because everyone trusted what they heard on the radio, thankfully we're all far more cynical now), probably because of stunts like that, but a lot can be put down to marketing spin as well I suppose.
It's interesting that they've chosen to take the same sort of approach on the website for "I Robot" though - they've really tried to make it look as though a personal robot (NS-5) exists and will be used for the film... Perhaps it ought to drive a car around if so...
I'd really like to know what the search-count is on google for 'NS-5' or 'Android Mechanics' now that this has hit Slashdot:-)) Anyone know of a way to query google for that sort of thing ?
Or, in this case no quids were involved (a quid is UK slang for a British pound...)
It restores my faith in people when something like this happens - MySQL and PHP are the joint foundations on which a huge number of OS projects depend. Way to go MySQL:-))
Given the scale of the re-work proposals (replacing the Von-Nuemann architecture...), I'd be surprised if there wasn't some effort made to embed snooping and tracing into all packets transmitted. This *is* the DoD after all!
On the other hand, given how slowly IPv6 is making its way into the wider world, we probably don't have too much to worry about for the time being!
The fact that 24 hours after releasing an 'important' bug patch, Microsoft re-released a 'critical' bugpatch should *not* be held against them! It certainly would not be the first time someone had realised that the consequences of X are far more than previously thought.
I'm no apologist for MS (see my posting history:-), but re-relasing a new patch at a higher security classification ought to be applauded, not ridiculed. Fair play, guys, and play the game according to *all* the rules, not just the "Redmond -4" ruleset...
This is really excellent news - according to Spamhaus.org, 7 of the top 10 (including the top 2) spammers worldwide are from the USA. Looking at the list of the top 200, I'd say about 80% are from the USA. It needs action within the USA to stop this, and for once I can say I really approve of something AOL, MS and Yahoo are doing [don't know much about Earthlink] - See, I'm not biased at all:-))
Today I received 1681 emails, 137 of which are non-spam. Now I have good anti-spam filters, and I probably only opened about 300 of those, but that's still a major pain where it hurts. String 'em up, I say, bring back lynching - mob justice for spammers!
... but it seems a pretty clear-cut infringement, given that the law exists. Perhaps Apple want to make a stand - can't see a USA company getting much sympathy in France though...
Actually not as stupid a question as it sounds - the PS2 has an official linux site, and the dev. environment is pretty similar (well, once you use the SPS2 stuff, anyway:-).
Given the advances in NUMA architectures in the Linux kernel, and the Cell processor being designed for parallel processing, it actually begins to sound reasonable... I'm sure there'll be developers who hit the metal, but given how fast the thing is supposed to run, I think it's a viable option:-)
Then of course, it'll *really* be a war - closed MS Xbox-2 versus PS3 running Linux:-))
I'm not sure whether this is a triumph of the distributed nature of the kernel, or a catastrophic failure of the whole model... The mremap() code was presumably looked at in great depth just recently, after a critical vulnerability was found. A few weeks go by and another hugely important hole is found...
Since no special privileges are required to use the mremap(2) system call any process may use its unexpected behavior to disrupt the kernel memory management subsystem.
Proper exploitation of this vulnerability leads to local privilege escalation giving an attacker full super-user privileges. The vulnerability may also lead to a denial-of-service attack on the available system memory.
Now I know the consequences of a problem bear little relation to its root cause, but I am a little surprised at how this managed to find its way through all these eyes looking at the offending code a week or so ago. Actually making it work as a security hole looks to be reasonably complex, (which may be why it wasn't found, I guess), but if one piece of code can have 2 major vulnerabilities in as many weeks, maybe it's time to start worrying about when Linux *does* take over the desktop...
I thought the automated 'Stanford Checker' (sp ?) was ideal for this sort of problem ? (Where the returned value from a function is ignored...) Perhaps it was flagged up but took some in-depth analysis for the kernel developers to realise it really was a problem...
So, is this a master-stroke of the development model, with various people around the world all individually checking code and Hey! Someone found something, or is it a "failure" where all those people missed it the first time around, and it's a pure fluke it was found now.... I'm still not sure, but I'll give the benefit of the doubt to the model - hey, it's been fixed!:-)
Simon
7 is the number, and the number is 7, not 8 nor 9
on
The Memory Masters
·
· Score: 4, Interesting
(the quote is limited due to the size of the heading, but 10 is right out!)
The brain seems to actually have the sort of grasp of numbers that we sometimes ascribe to "Neanderthals"... It really does seem to go something like 1,2,3,4,5,6,7,lots. We seem to have a distinction of the innate "three-ness" of a scene, for example, and don't need to count to know that the quantity of X is three.
Different people vary with the maximum innate value they just grok, with most people coming in about 5 or 6, rarely do you get 7, and vanishingly rarely do you get 8.
What has this to do with memory, you cry! Well, in the same fashion, we can innately recall small numbers of things, without doing an exhaustive search. This is useful for PIN numbers:-) The thing is that we can do it recursively, with a bit of effort, so you remember group A is (21,63,37,78,39) and group B is (25,544,62,150,311). It's easier to recall both sets if you first subdivide into the largest quantum you can most-easily recall, and remember the sets individually. Normally you can do this for the number of sets in your personal quantum, so if you can easily remember 5 numbers in a set, this helps you remember 25. It's not "free" of effort, but it's a lot easier than remembering 25 numbers straight off..
Hack the system! exploit the underlying nature of your brain!
I find it heartening that the 'net is used against things like this - that ordinary people have the power to make themselves *really* heard. That 'organisation' is freely available and effectively free, and that the playing field, if not exactly level, is at least eroding to a flatter plane.
Democracy has always been touted as the 'Will of the people'. It isn't, of course (at least not in modern times) because of the scale over which it operates. It used to work when communities were small, and it would work better if voting (though it ought to include a 'None of the above' were compulsory.
What this meant was that the illusion of democracy was maintained, while those in power could essentially do as they wished, until it was necessary to promise the earth again at election time. Now, though, with free availability of information, that power is lessening. Ordinary people such as you or I really can organise large-scale demonstrations without being an Organisation (and hence subject to pressure) ourselves. This is good.
The European patents debacle was a case in point - the Raconteur was lobbied by (gasp) individuals! These people wanted to talk to their representative and make their point. Such radical behaviour was completely unexpected, and caused the Speaker in the final debate to apologise to her for that indignity. Sad, isn't it. Let's hope they get used to it soon:-)
(BTW: (1) apologies to Will, (2) None of this is aimed at any government in particular. The phrase "Democracy is the least-worst form of government we've found to date" applies across the board, IMHO)...
So there's no workaround and no symptoms of it having been used. Ouch. Essentially if you want to be certain that a multi-user system has not been hacked, you need to reinstall the operating system from scratch, formatting all the disks...
So, what are the chances of it happening on Linux ? Well, probably less (the many-eyes scenario), but certainly possible. This isn't a time to be smug about not running Solaris...
Doing the splits is hard enough, but doing them sideways, in the middle of a somersault would be worse...
or:
The infantry advances with incredible speed towards the enemy, the men running across the battlefield at 50 miles/hour, then suddenly start to hop in circles as a small but significant grin occupies the face of the enemy commander...
Slashdot Mirror
The cynic within immediately asks 'who gains ?' from reducing the number of users on your site by denying traffic from what is essentially a free referral service. It doesn't seem to make any sense... If the story was being copied verbatim, and the source-site was losing ad revenue then there's just cause to block the copying site, but in this case Linux Today is only posting excerpts containing links ...
So, what gain can there be ? Does the process of having an outcry against you, then acquiescing to public demand (becoming a 'good guy' again) give you a sufficiently high profile that it's worth losing some page-views temporarily ? I think that it might....
Simon the cynic.
[shudder] Thanks! You've just reminded me what it was like to share a 1-mips machine with 70 other people, running an abortion of an operating system, and with a C compiler that made up code for you when you had syntax errors.
God, I'm going for a lie down!
Simon.
a gorgeous box using the nano-itx layout referred to earlier on /. I think a set-top box is coming my way :-)
Simon
I'd guess that NWA (Niggers With Attitude) will never be played again then, even their name probably breaks the rules; as for thier 'Fuck the motherfucking police', well, I doubt that'll ever see the light of day :-) Guess you guys won't get 'Roger Melly, the man on telly' any more either (if you ever did)
Over here in the UK, the thinking seems to be leaning to more leniency rather than more crackdown. There's an article on the BBC site asking 'Has swearing lost its power to outrage' talking about on-screen profanity...
Simon.
[note: this could be construed as a plug. Perhaps it even is, re-reading. You have been warned]
:-)
:-) You could do things like drag an image out of IE/Moz and drop into 'Shake', with Shake being instructed to load the real footage not the proxy version you were looking at in the browser - this image-based-project-load alone saved enormous time when you're dealing with millions of images.
My company (7 of us in total) wrote an asset management system used on a major film in a previous life (we were called 'unique-id' then). We were given the option of being paid and not disclosing the film, or not being paid and letting everyone know which one. It was a *big* film - we took the getting paid option, so you'll have to guess which
The rushes coming in totalled 40 DTF tapes per working day over several months, several hundred million images in all. The same system was used on the 'The world was not enough' trailer, where the large quantities of mostly-naked women
gyrating around with oil being poured on them suddenly made the visualisation tools *far* better than they used to be...
Every image (every frame) was accessible and searchable, notes could be made and a proxy version played back over the net. It was completely automated - logging was done by simply untarring the data-tape or playing the rfid-labelled video tape, with metadata being inferred from path names or rfid tag, all very simple and very effective. Everything was written using OSS tools, mainly PHP and MySQL (and yes, we paid for our MySQL licences
Simon.
Oh come on, laugh. It's silly AND funny!
More seriously, why is it that the US seems to get more than its fair share of crackpots like this guy? Is it just because they're more able to make themselves heard (high tech, relatively rich society), or is it [tin hat] something more sinister [/tin hat] ? Perhaps it just seems that way from over here in the UK (officially the worlds least-likely to believe the walking-on-water and rising-from-the-dead thing - can't find the link though it was a bbc report recently), but there seem to be more potential tin-hatters from across the pond than just about anywhere else, even if you take into account the population differences (the US is less than 5x the UK...)
Simon.
Ignoring the various 'Good God what else could they do' responses, do yuo *really* care about the 10 seconds or so it takes to come out of hibernation mode ? Enough to want DRM h/w on your machine ?
Really ? Good for you. I don't.
Simon.
Steve Balmer rushed over in a last-ditch attempt to try and come to a deal, but the commissioner apparently demanded even-tougher remedies if a negative precedent was not to be set...
The fine is expected to be between 67 million UK pounds, and 670 million UK pounds . Ouch. That's a fair old amount of latitude in the range, but even MS would presumably rather not pay a billion-dollar fine. I know their cash reserves are up in the 40 billion dollar range, but even so it has to hurt. I'd expect the commission to fine them again if they don't do as they're told, as well....
Simon
According to the article there are normally 2 of these every year. It seems a bit tongue-in-cheek to say "The important thing is not that it's happening, but that we detected it" [Chesley]. They were lucky, that's all.
:-)
It *will* give them a chance to study the thing as it passes, since all the other ones were only detected after they'd gone (and presumably therefore couldn't be easily studied). If it's close enough to see with binoculars, it ought to be possible to resolve quite well in a good optical 'scope.
The other point I guess is that it's only 100 ft across (why not 30m ?) so it would have burnt up on entry into the atmosphere, but still, good to know about these things. An asteroid that big would make quite some bang on entering the atmosphere, I reckon
Simon
it surprised me that after all the work they went through, the conclusion is simply "make your own mind up". Now *that*'s being cautious!
Or maybe I'm just a cynic by nature....
Simon
Back in April 2002, the UK government started to fund a centre studying both the near-earth-orbit rocks we know about, and ways of increasing awareness and detection rates, as well as investigating possible protection strategies.
Personally I think it's just playing at people-politics, at least in the form the UK has done it $600k isn't going to go very far, but it's a relatively cheap purchase of public goodwill... On the other hand, at the moment I'll take what we can get.
There's a tiny chance of life as we know it being destroyed. A really tiny chance, and one thing humans aren't good at is disaster-planning - even when the potential result is extinction, the "gut-feeling" is to say "it'll never happen", because none of us have any experience of it happening. This is short-sighted, we should be doing something.
Although I don't think there's any reason to panic about it, the last great ecosystem was destroyed by (perhaps two, perhaps 1) asteroid, as far as we know. Researching, thinking, creating plans would probably be a good idea, at least IMHO.
Simon
Man, you're hard on your friends!
Simon.
When people first heard the WotW broadcast, they thought it was a real Martian invasion. There was widespread panic (mainly I think because everyone trusted what they heard on the radio, thankfully we're all far more cynical now), probably because of stunts like that, but a lot can be put down to marketing spin as well I suppose.
:-)) Anyone know of a way to query google for that sort of thing ?
It's interesting that they've chosen to take the same sort of approach on the website for "I Robot" though - they've really tried to make it look as though a personal robot (NS-5) exists and will be used for the film... Perhaps it ought to drive a car around if so...
I'd really like to know what the search-count is on google for 'NS-5' or 'Android Mechanics' now that this has hit Slashdot
Simon
Or, in this case no quids were involved (a quid is UK slang for a British pound...)
:-))
It restores my faith in people when something like this happens - MySQL and PHP are the joint foundations on which a huge number of OS projects depend. Way to go MySQL
Simon
Given the scale of the re-work proposals (replacing the Von-Nuemann architecture...), I'd be surprised if there wasn't some effort made to embed snooping and tracing into all packets transmitted. This *is* the DoD after all!
On the other hand, given how slowly IPv6 is making its way into the wider world, we probably don't have too much to worry about for the time being!
Simon
The fact that 24 hours after releasing an 'important' bug patch, Microsoft re-released a 'critical' bugpatch should *not* be held against them! It certainly would not be the first time someone had realised that the consequences of X are far more than previously thought.
:-), but re-relasing a new patch at a higher security classification ought to be applauded, not ridiculed. Fair play, guys, and play the game according to *all* the rules, not just the "Redmond -4" ruleset...
I'm no apologist for MS (see my posting history
Simon
This is really excellent news - according to Spamhaus.org, 7 of the top 10 (including the top 2) spammers worldwide are from the USA. Looking at the list of the top 200, I'd say about 80% are from the USA. It needs action within the USA to stop this, and for once I can say I really approve of something AOL, MS and Yahoo are doing [don't know much about Earthlink] - See, I'm not biased at all :-))
Today I received 1681 emails, 137 of which are non-spam. Now I have good anti-spam filters, and I probably only opened about 300 of those, but that's still a major pain where it hurts. String 'em up, I say, bring back lynching - mob justice for spammers!
Simon
... but it seems a pretty clear-cut infringement, given that the law exists. Perhaps Apple want to make a stand - can't see a USA company getting much sympathy in France though...
... sigh...
Oh if only the virus line were true
Simon.
Actually not as stupid a question as it sounds - the PS2 has an official linux site, and the dev. environment is pretty similar (well, once you use the SPS2 stuff, anyway :-).
:-)
:-))
Given the advances in NUMA architectures in the Linux kernel, and the Cell processor being designed for parallel processing, it actually begins to sound reasonable... I'm sure there'll be developers who hit the metal, but given how fast the thing is supposed to run, I think it's a viable option
Then of course, it'll *really* be a war - closed MS Xbox-2 versus PS3 running Linux
Simon
The US and UK troops will be able to understand each other! Two nations no longer divided by a common language :-)
Simon
looked at in great depth just recently, after a critical vulnerability was found. A few weeks go by and another hugely important hole is found...
Now I know the consequences of a problem bear little relation to its root cause, but I am a little surprised at how this managed to find its way through all these eyes looking at the offending code a week or so ago. Actually making it work as a security hole looks to be reasonably complex, (which may be why it wasn't found, I guess), but if one piece of code can have 2 major vulnerabilities in as many weeks, maybe it's time to start worrying about when Linux *does* take over the desktop...
I thought the automated 'Stanford Checker' (sp ?) was ideal for this sort of problem ? (Where the returned value from a function is ignored...) Perhaps it was flagged up but took some in-depth analysis for the kernel developers to realise it really was a problem...
So, is this a master-stroke of the development model, with various people around the world all individually checking code and Hey! Someone found something, or is it a "failure" where all those people missed it the first time around, and it's a pure fluke it was found now.... I'm still not sure, but I'll give the benefit of the doubt to the model - hey, it's been fixed!
Simon
(the quote is limited due to the size of the heading, but 10 is right out!)
... It really does seem to go something like 1,2,3,4,5,6,7,lots. We seem to have a distinction of the innate "three-ness" of a scene, for example, and don't need to count to know that the quantity of X is three.
:-) The thing is that we can do it recursively, with a bit of effort, so you remember group A is (21,63,37,78,39) and group B is (25,544,62,150,311). It's easier to recall both sets if you first subdivide into the largest quantum you can most-easily recall, and remember the sets individually. Normally you can do this for the number of sets in your personal quantum, so if you can easily remember 5 numbers in a set, this helps you remember 25. It's not "free" of effort, but it's a lot easier than remembering 25 numbers straight off..
The brain seems to actually have the sort of grasp of numbers that we sometimes ascribe to "Neanderthals"
Different people vary with the maximum innate value they just grok, with most people coming in about 5 or 6, rarely do you get 7, and vanishingly rarely do you get 8.
What has this to do with memory, you cry! Well, in the same fashion, we can innately recall small numbers of things, without doing an exhaustive search. This is useful for PIN numbers
Hack the system! exploit the underlying nature of your brain!
Simon
I find it heartening that the 'net is used against things like this - that ordinary people have the power to make themselves *really* heard. That 'organisation' is freely available and effectively free, and that the playing field, if not exactly level, is at least eroding to a flatter plane.
:-)
Democracy has always been touted as the 'Will of the people'. It isn't, of course (at least not in modern times) because of the scale over which it operates. It used to work when communities were small, and it would work better if voting (though it ought to include a 'None of the above' were compulsory.
What this meant was that the illusion of democracy was maintained, while those in power could essentially do as they wished, until it was necessary to promise the earth again at election time. Now, though, with free availability of information, that power is lessening. Ordinary people such as you or I really can organise large-scale demonstrations without being an Organisation (and hence subject to pressure) ourselves. This is good.
The European patents debacle was a case in point - the Raconteur was lobbied by (gasp) individuals! These people wanted to talk to their representative and make their point. Such radical behaviour was completely unexpected, and caused the Speaker in the final debate to apologise to her for that indignity. Sad, isn't it. Let's hope they get used to it soon
(BTW: (1) apologies to Will, (2) None of this is aimed at any government in particular. The phrase "Democracy is the least-worst form of government we've found to date" applies across the board, IMHO)...
Simon
So there's no workaround and no symptoms of it having been used. Ouch. Essentially if you want to be certain that a multi-user system has not been hacked, you need to reinstall the operating system from scratch, formatting all the disks...
So, what are the chances of it happening on Linux ? Well, probably less (the many-eyes scenario), but certainly possible. This isn't a time to be smug about not running Solaris...
Simon
Doing the splits is hard enough, but doing them sideways, in the middle of a somersault would be worse...
or:
The infantry advances with incredible speed towards the enemy, the men running across the battlefield at 50 miles/hour, then suddenly start to hop in circles as a small but significant grin occupies the face of the enemy commander...
[yeah, I know they're not netowrked, yet...]
Simon