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Phoenix DRM Reads Your E-Mail

martensitic writes "eWeek reports that Phoenix has developed a utility allowing users of its laptop DRM BIOS (last discussed here) to 'check their Outlook data on a notebook computer without needing to boot the machine.' Since Longhorn is still several years away, Pheonix is developing their own trusted apps to sell the BIOS to laptop manufacturers. One can only imagine what other innocuous bells and whistles will be used to leverage DRM onto Joe Laptop's machine."

298 comments

  1. Talk about a misleading headline! by MrRTFM · · Score: 5, Insightful

    It's not like the BIOS transmits info anywhere else or logs keystrokes. It's seems to be a quick boot access method to get to your PIM data. And, quite frankly - its ABOUT BLOODY TIME.

    Even with a fast 2 gig PC its hard to convince the family to use the contacts database instead of the paper version- takes too long to boot, logon, load the app. Sheesh, it seems as if this type of information access is going backwards these days. The faster the hardware gets, the more bloated the software gets.

    --
    You can't expect to wield supreme executive power, just because some watery tart threw a sword at you
    1. Re:Talk about a misleading headline! by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      I want a quick boot access method(TM) to this.

      Open dirs rule.

    2. Re:Talk about a misleading headline! by FrostedWheat · · Score: 3, Insightful

      Most laptops have a hibernation mode. Using that, my 486 laptop can be up and running in 1 second.

      Sure it takes a while after that, but hey it's ancient...

    3. Re:Talk about a misleading headline! by lpontiac · · Score: 4, Insightful
      Even with a fast 2 gig PC its hard to convince the family to use the contacts database instead of the paper version- takes too long to boot, logon, load the app

      The article says this is for a notebook computer.

      Maybe instead of this, they should concentrate on making a suspend/hibernate that works.

    4. Re:Talk about a misleading headline! by Slashdot+Junky · · Score: 1

      ...The faster hardware gets, the more bloated MOST software gets! Not just PIM apps!

      Wow, we can throw in today's kitchen sink and those of the past decade as well with all of the power, memory, and storage now available. It seems that some outfits don't care to about writing with small footprint and low resource intensivity in mind these days!

      -Slashdot Junky

      --
      .
      Landfill Mining Co.
      Managing the (Un)natural Resources of Tomorrow
    5. Re:Talk about a misleading headline! by sporty · · Score: 0, Redundant

      Sleep mode is your friend. :)

      --

      -
      ping -f 255.255.255.255 # if only

    6. Re:Talk about a misleading headline! by SillyNickName4me · · Score: 2, Interesting

      I solved that with a handheld (palm m505 in my case) years ago.. has the additional advantage that you dont have to carry your laptop around all the time just coz of needing your PIM.

    7. Re:Talk about a misleading headline! by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 5, Informative

      It's not like the BIOS transmits info anywhere else or logs keystrokes.

      and how do you know that? Has everyone forgotten the last fiasco with this company? for a quick reminder see http://www.cexx.org/phoenix.htm.

      Their PhoenixNET BIOS (circa 2001) would change your home page and search engine, pop up links on your desktop and in your web-browser and would automatically download and install software on your machine!

      And you're going to trust these people with your PIM data?

    8. Re:Talk about a misleading headline! by Eric_Cartman_South_P · · Score: 4, Insightful
      Dude, buy an Apple. Never turn the thing off, just close the lid. Need PIM info? Open the lid and the OS is responsive on a Powerbook before your hand makes it from lid to keyboard. Then just slap the thing shut when done. Try that on Windows and you'll have to reboot after a week at most. I've had my Powerbook go for two months without ever rebooting, opening and closing lid 10 times a day if not more. And never one crash of the OS.

    9. Re:Talk about a misleading headline! by HeghmoH · · Score: 1

      Rhetoric:~ mikeash$ uptime
      15:37 up 13 days, 14:18, 5 users, load averages: 0.62 0.97 1.03


      This is a portable which I turn off every night. It's ready to go (and can check my mail) in less time than an average PC takes to do its startup memory check.

      --
      Mod down posts with a "Free Mac Mini/iPod" sig, they're spam!
    10. Re:Talk about a misleading headline! by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1, Interesting
      They did this already and it is called a Mac.

      rofl. I was going to say the same thing. Before I got an iBook I just assumed standby was pretty unreliable. With the iBook I found I could shut the lid and it went to sleep. When I opened the lid it resumed from where I left off in a couple seconds. An amazing change of pace to a former Dell Inspiron owner. The only downside is it doesn't have any true hibernate feature to completely power off so the battery will go dead within a couple days without being plugged in. Not a big deal since I leave my laptop plugged in all the time when not using it. I've gone months without needing to reboot my iBook... the last time was 2 weeks ago to apply updates.

    11. Re:Talk about a misleading headline! by Jahf · · Score: 4, Insightful

      suspend/hibernate always worked well for me during that one or two days that I used the stock Windows install before repartitioning/replacing it.

      However even a working hibernate can take a minute or two to fully restore, as it has to pull up to a GB of data off the hard drive, properly restart devices, and do a doublecheck of config. That means that on my laptop with 512MB RAM and Win2K it took almost as long to de-hibernate as it did to boot (Win2K has an awfully fast boot cycle).

      Restoring a suspend is much quicker, but then again, suspend works (for me at least) on Linux just fine.

      I personally am not happy about DRM BIOS in general, but having quick access to PIM data without a full boot sounds VERY nice, especially if it can be made multi-user. I can definitely see my grandparents willing to do that over having to go through the whole "scary" boot process.

      Plus it gives you a way to leave the machine off, saving power, while still being able to have it quickly boot into an application that guests might want to use.

      Is it a killer feature? Nope. Does DRM blow? Yep. Is it ironic in a funny way that someone is developing an Outlook compatible app that doesn't require you to run Windows because Microsoft is taking so long on their next version? Absolutely :)

      --
      It is more productive to voice thoughtful opinions (reply) than to judge (moderate) others.
    12. Re:Talk about a misleading headline! by fish+waffle · · Score: 1

      ..buy an Apple. Never turn the thing off, just close the lid.

      I've no idea whether it actually crashed the OS or not, but having watched a few people stand at a podium to deliver a presentation only to discover that their apple laptop won't talk to the data projector after waking from hibernation, i'm quite sure not everyone shares your confidence in apple.

    13. Re:Talk about a misleading headline! by Felinoid · · Score: 1

      suspend/hibernate always worked well for me during that one or two days that I used the stock Windows install before repartitioning/replacing it.

      However even a working hibernate can take a minute or two to fully restore, as it has to pull up to a GB of data off the hard drive, properly restart devices, and do a doublecheck of config. That means that on my laptop with 512MB RAM and Win2K it took almost as long to de-hibernate as it did to boot (Win2K has an awfully fast boot cycle).


      So your saying it works well but.. it dosn't work at all?

      I mean come on why should it even consider pulling drivers off the hard disk while exiting a suspend?

      When I pull Linux out of suspend it takes about a few seconds to bring up the screen and only a few more to spin up the disk drives. Less time than it takes for the stupid thing to run through dignastics when I want to change bios settings.

      --
      I don't actually exist.
    14. Re:Talk about a misleading headline! by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      And you're going to trust these people with your PIM data?

      Sure... and it has absolutly nothing to do with the lobtomy I got in 1997.
      Now I'm much happyer with Microsoft products. Everyone should get one. You'll all be much happier with Microsoft products after that.

      I know I am....
      (Ps: Am I drooling again? Oh sorry so embersing)

    15. Re:Talk about a misleading headline! by ShavenYak · · Score: 3, Informative

      My wife's Inspiron suspends and/or hibernates with 100% reliability. Granted, it's on XP now, but it was fine under 98 as well. In fact, that laptop probably hasn't been rebooted in about a month or two, and that reboot was for updates as well.

      --

      Hey kids, there's only 5 days left 'til Yak Shaving Day!
    16. Re:Talk about a misleading headline! by Viol8 · · Score: 1

      "Their PhoenixNET BIOS (circa 2001) would change your home page and search engine, pop up links on your desktop and in your web-browser and would automatically download and install software on your machine!"

      Really? Those phoenix coders must be very smart to write a BIOS that can update every operating system desktop that can run on a PC. Oh , or were
      you just refering to windoze?

    17. Re:Talk about a misleading headline! by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Hibernation completely powers off the machine. It's not just a simple suspend.

    18. Re:Talk about a misleading headline! by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Did you bother reading the referenced link in the parent? It quotes things from the Phoenix site itself that claims these things!

    19. Re:Talk about a misleading headline! by tambo · · Score: 4, Insightful
      Maybe instead of this, they should concentrate on making a suspend/hibernate that works.

      Agreed completely - and I'll take it a step further: An ideal suspend/hibernate mode will be one that runs on almost every reboot.

      Think about it. Virtually every time your computer thrashes its way through POST and Windows boot, it's doing the same thing it did last time. So why not just use a memory snapshot of the last time you booted? If you haven't changed the startup processes/options or hardware/drivers, it should work fine. If these have changed, then your next reboot reverts to the old method, and then it takes a new startup snapshot.

      Admittedly, the only flaw with this scheme is the Windows registry - this changes frequently with regular program usage. But Windows could keep a registry changelog since the last startup snapshot, and apply the changes after loading the old snapshot. Easy.

      This would lead to like a 1-second boot cycle 95% of the time.

      Now, that's the kind of thing that BIOS manufacturers should be working on, not ring-minus-one DRM bullshit.

      Convincing people to upgrade by allowin ghtem to check Outlook mailbox in BIOS? Are they stoned? Obvious problems:

      • Routine functions might (probably will) disable the functionality. Move your mailbox folder, apply a password, insert multiple user profiles, include some VB ties in the background - hell, just upgrade your mailbox format, maybe through an Office patch... how'd you like to have to flash update your BIOS after upgrading your BIOS?
      • If Outlook is inherently tied tightly to functional code (e.g., VBA), and if your BIOS allows you to run this functional code while checking mail, doesn't this give the functional code access to your BIOS? Half the point of Windows is to protect your low-level resources from malicious code - something that BIOS can't do unless it gets as bloated as Windows! Doesn't this pose a huge security risk?
      • Who really wants this?! This is all of the inconvenience of a stripped-down client, plus all of the bulk of a laptop. It's the worst of both worlds! - If users can wait 45 seconds to check their mail through a full Windows interface, why would they want to use a stripped-down, ugly, bug-ridden BIOS version? Why not just sync your Outlook folder with a PocketPC PDA and read it from your palmtop?
      Sadly, this is completely consistent with the lack of innovation plaguing every facet of the software industry. Increasingly, companies seem to embody the principle that their products are good enough for us crummy users - that the R&D expenditures tied to their profits are better spent on special-interest projects, than on genuinely improving their products. Office 2003 has a ton of document-lock features, useful only to large corporations who want to keep their files away from competitors (and, more likely, prosecutors looking for antitrust evidence...) It has NO use for the typical user. Meanwhile, Microsoft can't get around to fixing Office's goddamn bullets and autonumbering, so it's still a stinking pit of frustrating inconsistency. So this story is just more evidence that the current software market is hopelessly broken.

      - David Stein

      --
      Computer over. Virus = very yes.
    20. Re:Talk about a misleading headline! by LordPhantom · · Score: 1

      Sometimes I don't belive the mods on here.... "YAY APPLE" - (this should get this post +5 Informative) This total knee-jerk reaction is silly... sorry if you don't know how to config your box to not crash in any other OS... And furthermore, I reboot my laptop (running linux) more than your Mac Laptop, not due to instability, but b/c I like to play with it. Rebooting isn't a de facto inconvienence, especially when everything auto-loads anyway ;-).

    21. Re:Talk about a misleading headline! by Bill+Hayden · · Score: 1
      Maybe instead of this, they should concentrate on making a suspend/hibernate that works.

      That's one of the main reasons I use a Mac laptop as my main computer -- the sleep mode is fantastic. It's only gets rebooted about once a month or so for software updates, and is available in about 1 second when opening the lid. It's always on.

      --
      Protect your browser with the Force Safe Search add-on
    22. Re:Talk about a misleading headline! by lpontiac · · Score: 1
      Maybe instead of this, they should concentrate on making a suspend/hibernate that works.
      That's one of the main reasons I use a Mac laptop as my main computer -- the sleep mode is fantastic.

      Oh, I agree completely - I have an iBook and it's uptime can run into months for that exact reason. But there are lots of PC users out there, and I suspect many of them haven't even thought of this as a solution, Windows suspend is that flaky.

    23. Re:Talk about a misleading headline! by datan · · Score: 1

      I assume you're using softswp (resume) or pm_disk? which works better? have you tried the new softswp patch (resume2)? which kernel are you running?

    24. Re:Talk about a misleading headline! by surprise_audit · · Score: 1
      Is it ironic in a funny way that someone is developing an Outlook compatible app that doesn't require you to run Windows because Microsoft is taking so long on their next version? Absolutely :)

      And we can hope that Phoenix won't be so bloody stupid as to emulate Outlook's worst features, such as executing attachments...

    25. Re:Talk about a misleading headline! by RevAaron · · Score: 1

      Not sure about you,. but the Win 2k/XP hibernate/restore works fine on any machine, desktop or laptop. Granted, it is nowhere near as quick as my Mac- when I open the lid on the Mac, it's back in one second, and when I hit power on the PC, it's 45 seconds... but still, it's a successful hibernation/suspend-to-disk and restoration.

      --

      Working toward a usable PDA environment in the spirit of Newton OS: Dynapad
    26. Re:Talk about a misleading headline! by scrytch · · Score: 1

      > Think about it. Virtually every time your computer thrashes its way through POST and Windows boot, it's doing the same thing it did last time. So why not just use a memory snapshot of the last time you booted?

      This is the reasoning behind a plug-n-play BIOS. If hardware needs reinitializing, it'll say so, otherwise the settings will be saved and ready to use. Most OS's (Linux included) have all kinds of busy-wait delays however in their hardware initialization code, which slows down a boot immensely.

      BeOS booted for me in 5 seconds on a P2/400. I don't think OS's necessarily need a lot of help from the BIOS, they just need to aim at performance. But hey, all I ever hear about is how Moore's law will fix all that, which of course justifies making everything twice as big and twice as slow next iteration...

      --
      I've finally had it: until slashdot gets article moderation, I am not coming back.
    27. Re:Talk about a misleading headline! by RevAaron · · Score: 2, Interesting

      Windows suspend is that flaky.

      Worse than that is the power usage. I have known folks who ran Linux or Windows on an x86 lappy who got the suspend to work pretty reliably. But in suspend, they got such dismal battery "life." I mean, 1.5 hours of battery life for regular use, 8 hours of suspend? I have had my Mac suspended for weeks with no problem. What is so hard about bringing the power use down when the machine is all but off?

      --

      Working toward a usable PDA environment in the spirit of Newton OS: Dynapad
    28. Re:Talk about a misleading headline! by RevAaron · · Score: 1

      I've seen that problem in OS 9, but not OS X. OS Classic's hibernation wasn't bad per se, it was pretty reliable- but it was a lot slower than OS X's wake-up, which is pretty much instant. I have seen classic Mac OS crash in coming out of hibernation, a bummer indeed.

      --

      Working toward a usable PDA environment in the spirit of Newton OS: Dynapad
    29. Re:Talk about a misleading headline! by lordDallan · · Score: 2, Insightful

      And I've never seen a machine running Windows (98,2000,XP) have this problem. Oh wait, I have...

      As well as the laptop resolution getting screwed up after detaching from a projector (Win2k).

      Having the screen on the laptop go black and stay that way until a reboot (WinXP).

      Or having the machine just freeze and die (win2k).

    30. Re:Talk about a misleading headline! by svallarian · · Score: 1

      Have you tried using any external devices on it after de-hibernation?

      After I bring mine back from hibernate, none of the usb ports nor the modem works.

      Steven V.

      --
      I patented screwing your mom. But it got revoked for "prior art."
    31. Re:Talk about a misleading headline! by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Okay, what was "PIM" again? P. Instant Messaging? I've forgot...

    32. Re:Talk about a misleading headline! by DrSkwid · · Score: 1


      The faster the hardware gets, the more bloated the software gets.

      *Some* software, *some*.

      Plan9 using linuxbios can boot to the gui in 5 seconds

      My FreeBSD machine booting from CF goes from power on to playing mp3s from cdrom in 35s.

      --
      There are places where the networks are not touching,and there are places where they are-Boeing's Lori Gunter
    33. Re:Talk about a misleading headline! by Daltorak · · Score: 1

      Windows XP is much, much faster with the hibernation stuff. In my experience, at least three times as fast. Amazing what a little bit of optimising of I/O code can do....

    34. Re:Talk about a misleading headline! by dublin · · Score: 3, Informative

      But in suspend, they got such dismal battery "life." I mean, 1.5 hours of battery life for regular use, 8 hours of suspend? I have had my Mac suspended for weeks with no problem. What is so hard about bringing the power use down when the machine is all but off?

      There are two kinds of suspend: suspend to RAM (S2R) (which still requires power for the RAM and may or may not be able to turn of mostly everythign else, depending on hardware and BIOS capabilities) and suspend to disk (S2D), which, of course, can consume essentially nothing.

      This is the difference between "suspend" and "hibernate" in Windows parlance. Most modern hardware fully supports ACPI, since it's a requirement for being MS-certified. Windows, esp XP has excellent ACPI support, but its configuration can be botched up by someone that doesn't know what they're doing - either a user or the factory. The design of Windows' power managment interface makes it far too easy to do the wrong thing. If properly configured, though, the machine will first enter S2R, then, after a certain time (or when the batteries begin to cave in), it will transition to S2D and cut power to an absolute minimum. Sadly, many Windows laptops let the batteries get eaten in S2R mode *before* saving to disk. This is just bone-headed policy, though, not an architectural problem. Users can fix it if they understand what they're doing. (Although, to be fair, the location and size of the S2D file or partition can be a problem, especially if you've increased the amount of RAM and the S2D partition wasn't enlarged to match. (It seems to me *this* is the sort of thing laptops BIOSes shoud be taking care of automatically - when more RAM is detected, check to see if there's enough free space, and if there is, juggle things around to enlarge the S2D partition (sometimes a file under Phoenix-derived BIOSes, making this easier)and shrink the user partitions accordingly. Tricky, but not really all that hard.)

      Linux is still problematic, since it's ACPI support is much-improved lately, but still not really up to the task. So far as I'm concerned, this is still a major area where Linux is just not really capable of playing in the modern world yet - pretty much everything today should have and use ACPI, not just laptops.

      I agree that only Apple makes this whole process work anything at all like it should...

      --
      "The future's good and the present is nothing to sneeze at." - Roblimo's last ./ post
    35. Re:Talk about a misleading headline! by cellocgw · · Score: 2, Informative

      Windows XP is much, much faster with the hibernation stuff. In my experience, at least three times as fast.
      My datum: Dell 5150, 256MegRAM. Either no peripherals or just a USB mouse (Targus). It goes into hibernation pretty quickly but coming out takes quite a while. I get to the login screen fast, but after selecting a user (even one currently logged in) it takes a couple minutes to get the desktop loaded.

      --
      https://app.box.com/WitthoftResume Code: https://github.com/cellocgw
    36. Re:Talk about a misleading headline! by horza · · Score: 1

      I've had my Powerbook go for two months without ever rebooting, opening and closing lid 10 times a day if not more. And never one crash of the OS.

      What happened after the two months?

      Phillip.

    37. Re:Talk about a misleading headline! by yabos · · Score: 1

      OS X is heading this way. There is a boot cache which is loaded instead of starting up all the services if they are running. It will skip Apache initialization, SSH, FTP etc. and speeds up the boot process by about 2/3 for me.

    38. Re:Talk about a misleading headline! by yabos · · Score: 1

      Probably an OS update.

    39. Re:Talk about a misleading headline! by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      The batteries ran out.

    40. Re:Talk about a misleading headline! by goodbye_kitty · · Score: 1

      mmm, coz we all know that executables function really well in the absence of any OS to excute them =p

    41. Re:Talk about a misleading headline! by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Then just slap the thing shut when done.

      And hope the latch actually works.

      No, install Windows 95 on the fastest machine available. Better yet, 3.1. Blink and you'll miss the book process.

    42. Re:Talk about a misleading headline! by Phurd+Phlegm · · Score: 1
      Even with a fast 2 gig PC its hard to convince the family to use the contacts database instead of the paper version- takes too long to boot, logon, load the app. [....] The faster the hardware gets, the more bloated the software gets.

      I think this would be an interesting thing for someone (else) to do a study on. It seems as though no matter how much faster systems get, they take just about the same amount of time to boot and get ready to actually *do* something. Of course, if you just run old software on new hardware, you get blazingly fast boots. As an example, when I run DOS under Virtual PC on my Mac, even though it's emulating a 386 (whatever Intel's calling it now--Heptium, Inventium, ...) it boots instantly.

      Makes me wish I had some DOS programs somewhere that I could still use....

    43. Re:Talk about a misleading headline! by uberdave · · Score: 1

      Personal Information Manager

    44. Re:Talk about a misleading headline! by DrSkwid · · Score: 1


      Dude, buy an Apple. Never turn the thing off, just close the lid.

      yup, sounds about right

      --
      There are places where the networks are not touching,and there are places where they are-Boeing's Lori Gunter
    45. Re:Talk about a misleading headline! by yanestra · · Score: 1
      The faster the hardware gets, the more bloated the software gets.
      Bloating the BIOS makes your computer faster?
    46. Re:Talk about a misleading headline! by Perky_Goth · · Score: 1

      what about linux, that would be great innovation to shut up some people...

    47. Re:Talk about a misleading headline! by Aidtopia · · Score: 1
      [W]hy not just use a memory snapshot of the last time you booted?

      This reminds me of something we considered doing with a popular desktop application I used to work on. The application could take a very long time to load on a memory-bound system. So instead of showing a splash screen on startup, we considered bringing up an image of the application ready to go. Whenever you would shut down, we would take a new snapshot of the screen and save it for the next time. Sure, you still wouldn't be able to *do* anything while it was loading, but it could help to placate impatient users by showing them their data right away and letting them get their bearings.

    48. Re:Talk about a misleading headline! by phrasebook · · Score: 1

      it takes a couple minutes to get the desktop loaded

      Something is wrong. When I select my user I get the desktop (and no more disk activity) in just a few seconds. Time for a reinstall ;)

    49. Re:Talk about a misleading headline! by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      For writing I use an NEC 780 HPC, which looks
      like an ultracompact notebook, using a German
      CE word processor called Textmaker. It goes on
      and off in less than a second, and I don't have
      to close down anything -- it takes me back to
      exactly where I was when I shut the power off.

      Even a 10 second return from hibernation would
      seem like an absurd amount of time to wait by
      comparison. The main drawback, of course, is
      that this is running Windows CE, which Microsoft
      has obviously been keeping rather deliberately
      crippled as to not have it compete with its
      main Windows OS. I keep thinking of the
      marginal overall improvement in functionality
      that XP has over Windows 3.11, despite a
      gargantuan increase in code size. Even CE is
      bigger than 3.11. I think an enhanced
      lightweight GUI OS akin to a 32 bit Win3.11
      would find many uses, especially coupled with
      a more functional equivalent of Pocket Office.
      Maybe something like what's on the Sharp Zaurus
      in a mini-notebook form combined with a light
      version of Star Office. Pull it out of your
      bag, press a button, check your mail, write
      a note, press another button, put it back into
      your bag. *&#% hibernation mode and multiminute
      startups in regular mode.

      And what exactly is Palm doing with all that nice
      BeOS code they own?

    50. Re:Talk about a misleading headline! by cubic6 · · Score: 1

      Before I installed Linux on my Inspiron, the suspend/resume worked perfectly. I never used the modem, so I wouldn't know if it worked, but my USB mouse and gamepad worked fine after resume. Haven't quite figured out how to get suspend working in Linux though... every time I put the screen down, I have to hit the "External Moniter/LCD" key to get my display back.

      --
      Karma: Contrapositive
    51. Re:Talk about a misleading headline! by ShavenYak · · Score: 1

      Don't know about the modem, as I never use it, but the USB works fine after returning from suspend. Every once in a while the Wi-Fi card will freak out, but popping it out and putting it back in fixes it. That's not necessarily due to the suspend though, sometimes it happens when the machine is left alone but running - I think the driver for the Wi-fi card is flaky.

      --

      Hey kids, there's only 5 days left 'til Yak Shaving Day!
    52. Re:Talk about a misleading headline! by demon · · Score: 1

      There are two kinds of suspend: suspend to RAM (S2R) (which still requires power for the RAM and may or may not be able to turn of mostly everythign else, depending on hardware and BIOS capabilities) and suspend to disk (S2D), which, of course, can consume essentially nothing.

      I ran Debian on an iBook (an older round iBook) while I worked for a previous employer. It would happily sleep for days, nearly a week at a time, without draining its battery. (I currently run it on a PowerBook Pismo - I use it frequently enough that I don't get a chance to really gauge it, but the power loss during sleep still seems pretty small.) At another previous employer, I ran Debian on a Gateway laptop. Suspend (APM suspend, at the time, ACPI was still new at the time) was pretty flaky. Unfortunately, I've seen worse experiences with suspend in Windows than in Linux.

      Linux is still problematic, since it's ACPI support is much-improved lately, but still not really up to the task. So far as I'm concerned, this is still a major area where Linux is just not really capable of playing in the modern world yet - pretty much everything today should have and use ACPI, not just laptops.

      That you even suggest this is to ignore a big part of ACPI, that being its scope - it's not just for power management, but for system configuration management and a lot of other stuff. Also you ignore how complicated ACPI is to implement, not to mention the fact that each BIOS vendor's implementations have their own totally different set of bugs. On Apple's gear, suspend works better in general - because there's one firmware (OpenFirmware) and one hardware maker (Apple). The bugs are there, but it's a lot easier to isolate them when you have a (fairly) common implementation to work with.

      --

      Sam: "That was needlessly cryptic."
      Max: "I'd be peeing my pants if I wore any!"
    53. Re:Talk about a misleading headline! by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Phoenix is thinking about it. I worked with a group of ex-Phoenix folks whose last project was to inject Phoenix/Client-controlled ads at boot time *and* within browser sections, potentially hijacking other ad space. Just like Gator and the like. They're looking for any way they can exert more control, make more money, and punish people for not paying attention to their BIOS.

    54. Re:Talk about a misleading headline! by ScrewMaster · · Score: 1

      I have a simple solution to all of the above, it goes something like this:

      Don't turn the computer off.

      I have several machines around my home and they're always on. The less-utilized computers use power-saving mode on the hard drives, all of them use it on the monitors. Each station is instantly accessible and you'll find yourself using them more for those quick tasks that aren't worth waiting around for a full boot. Reliability goes way up because you aren't power-cycling the equipment all the time, which is another plus. Since I started doing this several years ago I haven't had a significant hardware failure, other than the occasional monitor or keyboard/mouse. The only time I've replaced a hard disk or a motherboard is during an upgrade.

      --
      The higher the technology, the sharper that two-edged sword.
    55. Re:Talk about a misleading headline! by ScrewMaster · · Score: 1

      Yes, and if you're going to suffer through all of that ... why not just boot into a DOS partition (taking all of two seconds) and run a DOS app to read your Outlook files. If time to startup is that big an issue, bring back a lightweight operating system, don't bloat your BIOS.

      --
      The higher the technology, the sharper that two-edged sword.
    56. Re:Talk about a misleading headline! by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      I would probably leave my laptop running constantly (running Fedora Core 1), but for some reason I just don't like seeing the glowing light from my bed while trying to sleep (the little green power light on the front, I guess i could of put a CD or something infront of it like i did the cable modem & rounter, though I only go near those to jam in the reset button w/ a pin)

    57. Re:Talk about a misleading headline! by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      The only time I ever 'had' (actually wanted) to reboot my laptop was with a kernel update, no other upgrade needs a reboot to be used (just doing an Dist-Upgrade in Synaptic, the UI to apt-get for fedora, will update everything except the kernel automatically).

    58. Re:Talk about a misleading headline! by surprise_audit · · Score: 1

      Well, ya know, the bios does pretty well as its own OS, and it sure as hell has to be able to grub around in the filesystem if it's going to be finding Outlook files. So can Linux bootloaders like lilo and grub, without having very big binaries, never mind the bootsector viruses. So, yeah, I'd be concerned if Phoenix would allow attachments to execute...

    59. Re:Talk about a misleading headline! by lord_nightrose · · Score: 0

      1? Please tell me you're joking. My 1.5 ghz P4 with 640MB of RAM takes almost 30 seconds to boot. I could still look up an address in a physical book faster than that.

      --
      This is not part of my post. It's my signature. I bet you're disappointed.
    60. Re:Talk about a misleading headline! by TheLink · · Score: 1

      In the 2nd paragraph he's probably talking about _hibernate_, not suspend.

      With hibernate the 512MB RAM is written to the disk, and on resume/wake it has to be reread out. With a 40MB/sec HDD, 512MB = 12+ secs. Then you need to reinit the various hardware devices.

      Have fun if you have more than 512MB RAM ;).

      W2K can boot up in 30-45 secs. But that doesn't include regenerating your working environment.

      With suspend the RAM is not saved to disk, so if you really lose all power, it's like brutal shutdown.

      --
    61. Re:Talk about a misleading headline! by FrostedWheat · · Score: 1

      It takes a few minutes to boot, but I rarly reboot the machine. It's hybernation mode works perfectly. I press the power button, and a second or two later I have a desktop.

      It is an ancient machine, and I'm really suprised that more modern machines have problems doing this.

    62. Re:Talk about a misleading headline! by lord_nightrose · · Score: 0

      I suppose my next question would be how much memory does it have? Hibernation resume times depend solely on the amount of memory, since all hibernation really is is dumping the contents of memory to disk and vice versa.

      --
      This is not part of my post. It's my signature. I bet you're disappointed.
    63. Re:Talk about a misleading headline! by FrostedWheat · · Score: 1

      It does not have much at all, 16Mb. It dosen't dump it to hard-drive, I think it keeps the memory chips powered up. If I leave the laptop for a few weeks without powering it up, when I do it'll start from scratch.

    64. Re:Talk about a misleading headline! by lord_nightrose · · Score: 0

      Interesting. Are you sure that you're putting it in hibernation? Hibernation is a total memory dump to disk. If your memory is still powered, that's just sleep (or suspend) mode.

      --
      This is not part of my post. It's my signature. I bet you're disappointed.
    65. Re:Talk about a misleading headline! by ncc74656 · · Score: 1
      Sadly, many Windows laptops let the batteries get eaten in S2R mode *before* saving to disk. This is just bone-headed policy, though, not an architectural problem. Users can fix it if they understand what they're doing. (Although, to be fair, the location and size of the S2D file or partition can be a problem, especially if you've increased the amount of RAM and the S2D partition wasn't enlarged to match...)

      Hibernation, under both WinXP and Win2K, writes to a file in the root filesystem. As long as there's enough free space, you're all set...there's no need to make sure a hibernation partition is configured. There are BIOS-based (presumably OS-independent) hibernation schemes that might want a suitably large partition for their exclusive use, but Windows doesn't use those AFAIK. I wouldn't be surprised if newer notebooks don't even have such a built-in capability. (IIRC, my HP doesn't.) On the next boot, if a valid hibernation file is found, the system state is restored from it; otherwise, it goes through the normal boot process.

      --
      20 January 2017: the End of an Error.
  2. A perfect demonstration... by Jay+Maynard · · Score: 5, Insightful

    Zawinski's Law strikes again.

    --
    Disinfect the GNU General Public Virus!
    1. Re:A perfect demonstration... by AndroidCat · · Score: 1

      What worries me are programs like Outlook that started with email and are continuing to expand. Is there no end limit condition to that mega-puppy?

      --
      One line blog. I hear that they're called Twitters now.
    2. Re:A perfect demonstration... by nolife · · Score: 1

      I don't know if you were joking or not but our company is switching document management software to Hummmingbird DM with integration into Outlook as our primary user interface. IMHO, we are sliding deeper and deeper into the into the MS lockin trap.

      --
      Bad boys rape our young girls but Violet gives willingly.
    3. Re:A perfect demonstration... by AndroidCat · · Score: 1

      I wish I was joking. With all the junk piled into Outlook and that it comes as part of Office, it's a big dead whale parked across a lot of market niches--too smelly to ignore, and too big to move. Anything on Windows involving contacts or email has to come to terms with its market share, which usually amounts to becoming an Outlook add-on and part of the problem.

      --
      One line blog. I hear that they're called Twitters now.
  3. Solution looking for a problem by Space+cowboy · · Score: 4, Interesting

    Ignoring the various 'Good God what else could they do' responses, do yuo *really* care about the 10 seconds or so it takes to come out of hibernation mode ? Enough to want DRM h/w on your machine ?

    Really ? Good for you. I don't.

    Simon.

    --
    Physicists get Hadrons!
    1. Re:Solution looking for a problem by ducman · · Score: 3, Funny

      I don't have to wait 10 seconds. I use a Mac.

      --
      "We have nothing in common, your attitude annoys me, and your political views are appalling."
    2. Re:Solution looking for a problem by Beatbyte · · Score: 3, Insightful

      lol.

      Thats a great informative post there.

      I don't have to wait at all either. I have a P2 450 with fluxbox and kmail. I paid $150 for mine. How about you?

    3. Re:Solution looking for a problem by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      wow. amazing. stupefyingly brilliant. handing that idiot mac-user's head to him by telling him how slow a mac boots in response to how much more quickly he can get it out of hibernate is just...*sigh* words fail me.

    4. Re:Solution looking for a problem by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      YOU TRY AGAIN! Read what he said: 10 seconds to come out of hibernation! Not 10 seconds to BOOT!! BHWHAHAHAHAHA! What a fucknut! LOFROFLDKDJFKBOB!

    5. Re:Solution looking for a problem by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      This isn't necessarily flame bait -- my PowerBook wakes from sleep instantly, while several of my friends that have PC laptops have to wait over 5 seconds.

    6. Re:Solution looking for a problem by Creepy+Crawler · · Score: 1

      Yep, and my dual DSL box has 3 wired (1 being 10/100 ISA) and 2 wireless (802.11b - prism2) nodes. It's a lowly dual 350MHz p2 box with .5 gig ram ;-)

      Cost = 25$ Why? Cost 25$ for the ISA=>Cardbus adapter from someone who wanted to sell it.

      Even the case was a "throwaway" from the local college. I had a junky PSU. Used a future domain scsi card to put a scsi scanner and a 9Gig drive on it too. Got a dvd drive free from an upgrade-repair job.

      --
    7. Re:Solution looking for a problem by ShavenYak · · Score: 1

      I have a P2 450 with fluxbox and kmail.

      No way in hell I believe that can boot up and be responsive in 10 seconds. It takes longer than that for my Debian server (300MHz P2) to come up to a login: prompt without X.

      If you're talking about coming up from suspend, I might believe it, except that I have yet to have Linux properly suspend on any machine on which I've tried it.

      Hmm... then again you didn't specify Linux, so you might be on BSD. But it's dying, so surely not. ;)

      --

      Hey kids, there's only 5 days left 'til Yak Shaving Day!
    8. Re:Solution looking for a problem by mdielmann · · Score: 1

      10 seconds my ass. I have a laptop with a GB of RAM. You think that betweenn POST and HDD spin-up, let alone reading off a GB of data and loading drivers that I can do anything in 10 seconds? Now suspend is only a few seconds, mostly for HDD stuff again.

      --
      Sure I'm paranoid, but am I paranoid enough?
    9. Re:Solution looking for a problem by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Thanks to generous grandparents, my Mac was free. So looks like I win.

  4. Cool !!! by Average_Joe_Sixpack · · Score: 5, Funny

    Now I can write an Outlook virus that takes out the system BIOS

    1. Re:Cool !!! by bbowers · · Score: 2

      Yeah, someone was thinking ahead when they decided on that one. Seems to me this might become a real problem, and with Microsoft wanting to make the BIOS more Windows compatible I can see hardware sales of motherboards through the roof because of viruses that just simply kill them. Someone didn't eat their Wheaties before they got to the office that day...

      --
      Even a stopped clock gives the right time twice a day.
    2. Re:Cool !!! by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1, Funny

      When DRM comes out for some reason all of my mail will include a zip called "porno"...

    3. Re:Cool !!! by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0
      Great, so now I have to worry about some virus:

      disabling my anti-burn regulator settings on my system

      changing my system to boot from net

      changing my wake on lan (WOL)

      So I'll potentially be buying more CPU's, making sure that my system is really booted from the local image, and I'll be finding my system running when I turned it off a bit ago. Sounds like a good thing, right?

    4. Re:Cool !!! by yabos · · Score: 1

      "Even a stopped clock gives the right time twice a day." Unless it's a 24 hr clock :)

  5. So? by lofoforabr · · Score: 5, Insightful

    Why get such a BIOS? Increase BIOS complexity and you will end with a heavy, buggy bios. KISS!
    I, for one, welcome our old great Award BIOS!

    1. Re:So? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Yeah, man... KISS. We should never have advanced past the calculator. That was already complicated enough! Who needs all this fancy shmancy "computer" stuff?

      It's neither about keeping it simple or adding a ton of features... it's about finding a good middle ground between the two to satisfy your intended users.

    2. Re:So? by sxpert · · Score: 2, Informative

      last I checked, Award == Phoenix....

    3. Re:So? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      But all the features in modern BIOSes had to be added at one time or another, no? New features aren't necessarily bad. Bugs are just part of the development cycle and hopefully they eventually get worked out, the program gets optimized, etc.

      You can't keep everything simple and stupid or you'd never have any advances.

    4. Re:So? by timmyf2371 · · Score: 2, Insightful
      Sounds like another Outlook virus.

      I was under the impression that it was the actual Outlook applications/Underlying OS which was the problem.

      Can you explain how a third-party BIOS/Email client which is able to access Outlook's data can cause Outlook viruses?

      --

      Backup not found: (A)bort (R)etry (P)anic
    5. Re:So? by lurker412 · · Score: 1

      We all want a ton of features, but the question is: where should they reside? Putting application functions in the BIOS (or in the OS) is probably not going to provide the most flexible system.

    6. Re:So? by SillyNickName4me · · Score: 1

      No, it is about not making your components more complex then they need be. It has nothign whatsoever to do with the complexity of the resultign system.

    7. Re:So? by Viol8 · · Score: 1

      Bad analogy. The BIOS is SUPPOSED to be simple. Its a setup and booting system , thats it, PERIOD!
      We don't want it to get smart because once it gets
      complex it gets buggy and theres enough bugs in OSs WITHOUT having to worry about the fscking BIOS too!

    8. Re:So? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Yeah, it used to be Basic Input Output System, but now it's just Buggy or Bloated.. take your pick.

    9. Re:So? by geoffspear · · Score: 1

      Just wait until they embed a web browser into the BIOS and destroy IE's market share...

      --
      Don't blame me; I'm never given mod points.
    10. Re:So? by 1u3hr · · Score: 1
      We all want a ton of features, but the question is: where should they reside? Putting application functions in the BIOS (or in the OS) is probably not going to provide the most flexible system.

      Apple just dug themselves out of the hole they made by having part of their OS in ROM -- though initially it seemed like a good idea as it made it hard to clone, it also made it inflexible and hard to upgrade.

    11. Re:So? by h4rm0ny · · Score: 1


      We all want a ton of features

      Actually, I'm not so sure that I do. There's a whole order of complexity more required once you start incoporating features like this into the BIOS. I don't have a problem with the OS handling all the clever details of my computer. In the case of Linux, it's open source and I can see what it's doing and control it. Were the BIOS duplicating OS functionality then I lose that control / trust.

      Also, does this run the risk of linking BIOS's to specific OS's? I have a Pheonix BIOS on my Inspiron 2500 and it seems more geared towards Windows than Linux. For one thing, it has no option to disable the plug and play which causes problems with the Lucent Modem on board. If it wasn't for the Pheonix BIOS I'd have the use of that for backup and travel.

      --

      Aide-toi, le Ciel t'aidera - Jeanne D'Arc.
    12. Re:So? by Thor+Ablestar · · Score: 1

      It may evolve into a computer where all the OS is within the BIOS as in palmtops.

      I hate such untercomputers but they will be quite nice in applications where there are crowds of Luddite users that know their salaries don't depend (or depend inversely - it's Russia!) on their computer skills and so they refuse to learn anything. I hate such users. I admin a network of 30 such users, so such computers would save me a lot of problems.

  6. I hate to say it... by robslimo · · Score: 4, Insightful

    but with the prevalence of viruses and spam factory trojans contracted via the inboxes of lusers, this may be a case of lesser of two evils. *If I can disable it* then I don't mind.

    1. Re:I hate to say it... by oohp · · Score: 1

      Yes but in this case the trojan comes built into your computer by default, burned into ROM. Yay!

    2. Re:I hate to say it... by Lemmeoutada+Collecti · · Score: 1

      Anyone here recall the old Tandy 1000 SL/2 machines? Booted and ran from a ROM on board, and the ROM had a BASIC interpeter, and the BASIC interpeter had a virus in the executable (Jerusalem.B if I recall) and the VIRUS could only be removed by removing the ROM?

      Once again we shall come full circle.

      Me, I'll just drag out my Tandy 1000 SL/2 with the Hard Drive kit and be done with it. Anyone want an old DOS virus? Barely used!

      --

      You can have it fast, accurate, or pretty. Pick any 2.
  7. How dare they! by Channard · · Score: 2, Funny

    How dare such a potentially privacy infringing combination be developed? I find it sickening that this could allow someone else to go through my emails about generic viagra.

    1. Re:How dare they! by rokzy · · Score: 1

      that's actually true, not just a joke.

      if you can just go into bios and get personal info, then all the OS password security is bypassed.

      on the other hand, if the bios needs a password to access this info, then what's the fucking point as it's just another hassle.

      fuck off Phoenix. now that DRM's becoming desirable by people with expensive lawyers you think you can have a piece of the pie too, but you're shit and your "innovations" are pieces of MS-style insecure boatware crap.

  8. i see. by SinaSa · · Score: 3, Insightful

    Ah, it allows me to access my Outlook data. Very good. But does it allow me to connect to the net and retrieve new data for viewing?

    --
    --
    The last digit of pi is four.
    1. Re:i see. by cowens · · Score: 1

      Soon it probably will. Remember why Mozilla had to change its lightweight browser's name from Phoenix to Firebird (and the Firefox)? The reason stated was that Phoenix (the BIOS maker) was developing a web browser to embed in its BIOS chips. Now a web broswer isn't very useful without a net conection now is it? Soon you won't need an OS on the harddrive anymore. Then they will try to make it ilegal to put an OS on the hardrive (DRM). This is the carrot, the stick will come later.

  9. Great, Outlook in DRM Bios! by ThatDamnMurphyGuy · · Score: 0, Redundant

    Now my BIOS can get a virus from LookOut emails. Wonderful! That's progress. :-)

  10. Great! by Black+Parrot · · Score: 2, Funny


    Now viral e-mail can spread even when your computer's down.

    --
    Sheesh, evil *and* a jerk. -- Jade
  11. So? by Licensed2Hack · · Score: 2, Funny

    The NSA has been reading my email for years! :-P

    'check their Outlook data on a notebook computer without needing to boot the machine.'

    Sounds like another Outlook virus.

  12. BIOS Alternatives? by prgrmr · · Score: 5, Insightful

    Open Source BIOS anyone? Prohibitively expensive? Administratively impossibile? Too geek even for /.?

    1. Re:BIOS Alternatives? by lxs · · Score: 2, Informative

      Well, there is linuxbios but what I would really like to see is open firmware for intel architecture (not sure if that is possible)

    2. Re:BIOS Alternatives? by i.r.id10t · · Score: 1

      linuxbios.org

      --
      Don't blame me, I voted for Kodos
    3. Re:BIOS Alternatives? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1, Informative

      http://www.OpenBIOS.info

    4. Re:BIOS Alternatives? by Asic+Eng · · Score: 1

      Sure there is a BIOS alternative, here you go: linuxbios.org

    5. Re:BIOS Alternatives? by prgrmr · · Score: 1

      Is this a functionally equivalent substitute for a single desktop or notebook system, or is should this really only be used in a cluster?

    6. Re:BIOS Alternatives? by ebuck · · Score: 5, Informative

      Try already exists.

      Look at:
      LinuxBIOS: http://www.linuxbios.org/index.html
      OpenBIOS: http://www.openbios.info/
      FreeBIOS: http://freebios.sourceforge.net/
      GBIOS: http://www.agelectronics.co.uk/gbios/

      Some (like LinuxBIOS) have boot times under a second from cold start to mounting / (root).

      Each comes with their own strenghts (and weaknesses). The trick will be to get everyone to adopt a better BIOS than the one pre-installed on their computer. Messing around with BIOS isn't as easy as messing around with a new web browser, so don't expect mass adoption any time soon.

    7. Re:BIOS Alternatives? by lxs · · Score: 1

      Thanks for that link.

    8. Re:BIOS Alternatives? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      I think it's not "functional" at the moment, but it seems to evolve well. As to it's intended usage, i don't see why it should be limited to netbooting in clusters. Apple is using OpenFirmware in desktops, you can use Sun Sparcs which introduced OpenFirmware as desktops if you're so inclined.

    9. Re:BIOS Alternatives? by maxwell+demon · · Score: 1
      --
      The Tao of math: The numbers you can count are not the real numbers.
    10. Re:BIOS Alternatives? by Brahmastra · · Score: 1

      Chipset and processor vendors such as Intel are not going to make a lot of processor and chipset documentation public domain. You will have to sign an NDA to get access to it early. I don't see that being conducive to Open Source BIOS anytime in the near future. For now, Open Source BIOS is going to happen only for old chipsets. If you want the latest and greatest, You'll have to rely on Phoenix, Dell, AMI, HP or other BIOSes.

    11. Re:BIOS Alternatives? by maxwell+demon · · Score: 2, Interesting

      Especially you can't set up a "multiboot" configuration for your BIOS (just keeping the original around, and if the replacement doesn't do what I need, I just boot the original), and if a BIOS installation fails, you might not even get to the point where you can flash your BIOS to repair it.

      I remember for the ZX Spectrum, there was an add-on module where you could put alternative ROMs in, and then could select which ROM it should use. Maybe something similar should be in mainboards.

      --
      The Tao of math: The numbers you can count are not the real numbers.
    12. Re:BIOS Alternatives? by DarkMan · · Score: 2, Informative

      OpenFirmware for Intel is perfectly feasable - indeed, the portability of OpenFirmware was a design intent. No one makes such a board.

      On the other hand, it wasn't an Intel creation, and thus is suffereing from NIH (Not Invented Here). Intel are looking at recasting the whole boot up process, but they're using thier own replacement, and not OpenFirmware. They call it EFI, see, for example, http://deviceforge.com/articles/AT8747644820.html

      The claim is that Intel's solution is superior - and no doubt it is, in some technical aspects. However, comments like the parent show that a uniformity in boot up process would be worth a lot.

    13. Re:BIOS Alternatives? by mr_jrt · · Score: 1

      I have a IOSS BIOS Saviour on my VP6. Great fun for tinkering with hacked BIOS images :)

      On got around to hacked logos thus far, but once I get some free time we'll see if I can get linuxbios going on it :)

      --
      Boo.
    14. Re:BIOS Alternatives? by DeathPenguin · · Score: 1

      LinuxBIOS provides fallback capability which allows for a second ROM to be stored on the same chip and be used in case the first one fails. No extra hardware necessary.

  13. Greatest. Idea. Ever. (NOT) by hoggoth · · Score: 5, Insightful

    Why just Outlook data? Why not extend this idea further. I dont USE Outlook, so I want my BIOS to enable me to check my Eudora mail, engage in ICQ, MSN-MSGR, and AIM chat, check the weather, stock quotes, movie times, and train schedules from my favorite web sites. To support all these things of course, my BIOS would need to bring up a sophisticated operating system... lets call it 'Bindows'. This 'Bindows' would be rather large, so it will need the ability to 'hibernate' quickly and wake up from hibernation quickly.
    Yes, this will be great.
    Much better than what we have now...

    --
    - For the complete works of Shakespeare: cat /dev/random (may take some time)
    1. Re:Greatest. Idea. Ever. (NOT) by sxpert · · Score: 1

      there's already something for this, it's called linuxbios

    2. Re:Greatest. Idea. Ever. (NOT) by fermion · · Score: 2, Insightful
      In the old days we used to turn on the computer, enter into the BIOS, and do all our editing at that level. Real programs would go directly to the assembler, but if were lazy the code could be interpreted by the Basic in the BIOS. We could send the data off to tape or the line printer or the serial port or whereever. Sure, sometimes we would have to put a 8" disk in, spend an hour or so getting the switches right, and then wait another day to load in the dos. But mostly we just played at the Bios, mostly.

      On a more serious note, couldn't something like this be done in open firmware. Boot up to the prompt and go:
      " Hello, wanted to check on the tickets
      tickets
      " nowhere@nowhere.net
      " nothere@nothere.net
      dup
      over
      " send
      mail

      --
      "She's a scientist and a lesbian. She's not going to let it slide." Orphan Black
    3. Re:Greatest. Idea. Ever. (NOT) by Ace+Rimmer · · Score: 1

      I thought that only on MIT a developement of an arbitrary program ends when it is also capable reading email...

      --

      :wq

    4. Re:Greatest. Idea. Ever. (NOT) by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      " I thought that only on MIT a developement of an arbitrary program ends when it is also capable reading email..."

      No no no. Development of an arbitrary program ends at MIT when it contains a Scheme interpreter* ;)

      *Note:
      Of course, this Scheme interpreter will also be finished once it contains a Scheme interpreter implement in Scheme (Which will contain a Scheme interpreter (Which will contain a Scheme interpreter (Which will contain a Scheme interpreter (Which will ...

    5. Re:Greatest. Idea. Ever. (NOT) by AndroidCat · · Score: 1

      Why don't they include features that people want like an instant-on porn viewer?

      --
      One line blog. I hear that they're called Twitters now.
    6. Re:Greatest. Idea. Ever. (NOT) by SmackCrackandPot · · Score: 1

      Taking this to the logical conclusion, we keep extending the BIOS until it's a fully featured OS in it's own right, and we won't need the other one that comes pre-installed on PC systems.

    7. Re:Greatest. Idea. Ever. (NOT) by russellh · · Score: 1

      To support all these things of course, my BIOS would need to bring up a sophisticated operating system... lets call it 'Bindows'. This 'Bindows' would be rather large, so it will need the ability to 'hibernate' quickly and wake up from hibernation quickly.

      The Mac Classic had System 6 in ROM (minimal set of control panels tho) which could be booted with a certain key combo.

      --
      must... stay... awake...
    8. Re:Greatest. Idea. Ever. (NOT) by ScrewMaster · · Score: 1

      Actually, if it just showed a few smiley faces on boot you could call it "CHEERIOS", for the Cheerful Input Output System.

      --
      The higher the technology, the sharper that two-edged sword.
  14. Whats the point? by dj245 · · Score: 5, Insightful

    With 20 second hibernation restores, are people really so pressed for time that they have to read e-mail from their fricken bios? Leave the bios alone. Bioses generally work fine, are feature packed, and nowadays don't give people problems. If manufacturers need to diferentiate their products they should add usefull features like DVD and mp3 cd playing without booting. These sort of features are for when I am generally not sitting at the computer but just looking at the screen, usually saving the battery life or perhaps noise level (media pc anyone?) If I wanted to read e-mail I would just boot and read e-mail.

    --
    Even those who arrange and design shrubberies are under considerable economic stress at this period in history.
    1. Re:Whats the point? by ebuck · · Score: 1

      Twenty seconds seems an eternity to wait. Especially for something as trivial as looking up a phone number, or someone's address.

      I mean, you can do this in two to four seconds if you just had a regular address book. Every handheld designer knows this, and their power up times are minimal. Even my vernerable Newton powered up in about a second (and that's 1990's tech).

      If desktops are going to be competitive in this computing niche, the boot times (and hibernation times) really need improvement. I'm not sure access to email is the key, but I imagine it's an akward step towards addressing the problem.

      Being a BIOS minimalist, I'd hope they speed up the OS boot/restore times before this becomes the next fad. But when have we successfully pressured MS to speed up it's OS?

    2. Re:Whats the point? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      What's a typical system state snapshot under XP? A gig? .5 GB? That's a lot of NVRam. Not saying it couldn't be done obviously. And possibly a good chunk of code too. Having a little spy app in the background to snoop the outlook data, and caching it to a chunk of memory, and a little extra code in the bios to turn it into text, isn't so much of a hack in comparison, maybe.

    3. Re:Whats the point? by kelnos · · Score: 1
      Twenty seconds seems an eternity to wait. Especially for something as trivial as looking up a phone number, or someone's address.

      I mean, you can do this in two to four seconds if you just had a regular address book. Every handheld designer knows this, and their power up times are minimal.
      then use a tool appropriate for the job, such as a PDA. ignoring the bootup times, your desktop is ill-suited as a contacts manager/addressbook simply because it is non-portable (in the physical sense). regardless, i would doubt that all that many people carry around their laptops wherever they go.

      this BIOS mis-feature is just a poor attempt to turn a desktop/laptop machine into something it's not. "general purpose" != "can do anything".

      if you don't own a PDA and simply must use your desktop machine as an addressbook, just don't turn the thing off.

      (personally, i use my cell phone as an address book. well, ok, it doesn't hold addresses, just phone numbers, but i find that i so rarely need actual addresses, my desktop, which is on all the time anyway, suffices.)
      --
      Xfce: Lighter than some, heavier than others. Just right.
  15. S.m.r.t. by Underholdning · · Score: 4, Interesting

    Ok, so here's what they do. They enable access to MS outlook information (address book, email etc) without having to go through the entire boot sequence.
    That means, your anti-virus product hasn't been launched yet, but you can still read that funny mail telling you to "see this amazing attachment".
    It also means, that they're basically providing an API to the outlook address book. That means, if you can fake that you're really just the BIOS requesting the information, you can make a virus that can access all the information it needs - undetected.
    Some might call this a feature. Other might call this Yet Another Reason To Avoid Phoenix And Outlook.

    1. Re:S.m.r.t. by MrIrwin · · Score: 2, Insightful

      Whilst the BIOS will show virus ridden email, it will not execute virus content, there is no OS yet. This means you have a possibility to review your email to check for suspicious email without risk. Ever wondered why so many people still use Pine?

      --

      And if you thought that was boring you obviously havn't read my Journal ;-)

    2. Re:S.m.r.t. by Dogers · · Score: 1

      furthering on from that..

      how does the BIOS know where to look for the data? I dont keep it in the standard place..
      How does this BIOS read NTFS? I thought MS hadnt licensed that tech..
      How does the BIOS get around NTFS's ACL's? Isnt that against the DMCA?!

      What does MS have to say about all of this?

      --
      I am a viral sig. Please copy me and help me spread. Thank you.
    3. Re:S.m.r.t. by Rick+Zeman · · Score: 1

      It also means, that they're basically providing an API to the outlook address book.

      They're doing more than that...they need to have drivers to interpret NTFS or FAT32, etc. Pretty soon they'll have creeping featuritis and you'll soon see a full Windows XP Embedded in your BIOS. :)

    4. Re:S.m.r.t. by Jokkey · · Score: 2, Informative
      How does this BIOS read NTFS? I thought MS hadnt licensed that tech..

      I'm pretty sure that MS has. PartitionMagic and Ghost, for example, can both read and write NTFS partitions.

      The specs for NTFS have not been released publicly, which is why the Linux implementation of NTFS is so incomplete.

    5. Re:S.m.r.t. by minusthink · · Score: 1

      You're assuming that the BIOS goes in to get the data.

      You could also have the data go out. Say a plugin might have Outlook export all the data into something that dodges all your concerns. A plain ASCII file into a standard place that is not in an ntfs partition. Maybe some space on the board in the chip or something.

      --
      "when life gets complicated, I like to take a nap in a tree and wait for dinner" - Hobbes.
    6. Re:S.m.r.t. by roboros · · Score: 1
      how does the BIOS know where to look for the data? I dont keep it in the standard place..
      How does this BIOS read NTFS? I thought MS hadnt licensed that tech..
      How does the BIOS get around NTFS's ACL's? Isnt that against the DMCA?!

      According to the article:

      "... users will be able to select how much information they want to access, such as the number of contacts, a certain quantity of e-mail message or access to a certain period of the calendar records. This information will be saved to a special backup file that both the cME and Windows can access."

      A solution like that seems reasonable. They avoid having to handle NTFS and locating the information and can instead use a simple format on a special disk partition for example. All the complexity of importing/exporting from Outlook would be handled by a program or Outlook plugin running under the normal OS.

      By the way, getting around the ACL:s would be simple, just ignore them. The ACL:s are basically lists of which users and groups that are allowed to read/modify/... the files and which aren't. They depend on the OS to enforce them. If the files are encrypted using the builtin EFS stuff in NTFS, it would be much more difficult. If I recall correctly, each file is protected by a file key which in turn is protected by a public/private key pair, where the private key is encrypted using the password you use to logon.

    7. Re:S.m.r.t. by Dogers · · Score: 1

      mm, yeah, forgot that MS ACL's are worthless :)

      And its interesting that its a user specified thing.. that pretty much makes all the rants on this topic pointless!?!

      Although I guess it could be argued that its possible for data to be left behind, lurking on a hidden HD partition, or left on a flash chip on the mobo when you sell/junk them?

      --
      I am a viral sig. Please copy me and help me spread. Thank you.
    8. Re:S.m.r.t. by 1u3hr · · Score: 1
      It also means, that they're basically providing an API to the outlook address book. That means, if you can fake that you're really just the BIOS requesting the information, you can make a virus that can access all the information it needs - undetected.

      Seems like an excellent way to get your mail out of Outlook files into something more useful. Let Outlook collect mail. readit in somethng else that will shrug off viruses and scripts. But they'll probably encrypt it to make it illegal to decode, not that it'd stop the hackers.

  16. Great by joshua.robinson · · Score: 0

    Now instead of having .8243 seconds to find the bios config key you also will have to stare at your monitor to find the new mail key ( followed by reboot since time to enter function has long passed and the OS is almost up)

    --
    Whats A sig anyway
  17. Been There, Done That, Got Linux... by pandrijeczko · · Score: 4, Insightful
    Not that I think this is a particularly useful feature but why is this any different to booting up in single user mode on Linux (within seconds) and issuing "mail" at the command-line? Or add another second to mount home directories and do a "mail" under a user account?

    I really get the feeling they're trying any old tactics to sell Joe Public the idea of DRM.

    --
    Gentoo Linux - another day, another USE flag.
    1. Re:Been There, Done That, Got Linux... by mattdm · · Score: 1

      Because it should be much, much faster than that. "Seconds" is too long for PDA-style use of a laptop.

    2. Re:Been There, Done That, Got Linux... by Chalybeous · · Score: 2, Insightful

      The quick loadtime is one reason I'm dying to try Linux; I recently used a Knoppix CD and found that it ran much quicker than Windows XP - even when booting into KDE!
      I, too, have a funny feeling that this is a move to make people think "Ooh, how useful!" and sneak DRM-compliant BIOS under the radar. Am I hopelessly paranoid, or will the next move be "Sorry, you can't download our trailer/demo/free song/sample chapter PDF unless your OS is DRM-compliant" (read: Windows with new BIOS)? And as other posters have said, will this lead to a proliferation of BIOS-targeting viruses?

      Just as an aside, any thoughts on how I should go about making a permanent move to Linux?

      --

      "It is dark. You are likely to be eaten by a grue." -- Zork

    3. Re:Been There, Done That, Got Linux... by Gr8Apes · · Score: 1
      I really get the feeling they're trying any old tactics to sell Joe Public the idea of DRM.

      DRM tied to windows, that is, and the most virus prone POS mail client I know of. Phoenix used to have a good BIOS. As I'm moving away from MS, it appears their new products will be unwelcome on my new machines.

      --
      The cesspool just got a check and balance.
    4. Re:Been There, Done That, Got Linux... by pandrijeczko · · Score: 2, Insightful
      Am I hopelessly paranoid, or will the next move be "Sorry, you can't download our trailer/demo/free song/sample chapter PDF unless your OS is DRM-compliant" (read: Windows with new BIOS)?

      I'm afraid that it can only go that way.

      Microsoft need to keep making money to survive but what happens now that every OS and application they make probably has just about every feature users need?

      It's obvious that MS have to start inventing new features and make Joe Public think that he needs those features. At the same time, MS can bring in a "rental model" which means they get guaranteed income from all their licensees.

      Just as an aside, any thoughts on how I should go about making a permanent move to Linux?

      There's no point "cutting off your nose to spite your face". Don't listen to all the hype - give Linux a try as a dual boot system and migrate across gradually if that's what you want to do. Far too many new Linux users get frustrated because everything doesn't run right from the start with a new install - 90% of hardware will be okay, about 5% will be made to work after a little fiddling and the final 5% may not work if its brand new hardware and doesn't have a driver yet.

      Make some unpartitioned space on your Windows machine and get a good starter distro like Mandrake, let it install itself and you'll have a dual-booting system. Go from there and get acquainted with some of the Linux support forums on the Internet - people on those are usually pretty helpful.

      Good luck with it also.

      --
      Gentoo Linux - another day, another USE flag.
    5. Re:Been There, Done That, Got Linux... by pandrijeczko · · Score: 1

      Given the choice between waiting a couple of seconds or having to use Outlook...

      --
      Gentoo Linux - another day, another USE flag.
  18. DRM can it go far? by cuban321 · · Score: 1, Insightful

    Hopefully the big manufacturers don't use Pheonix and come up with thier own (or continue using their own, whatever the case).

    I find it real hard to believe IBM will allow DRM to get to the point where Linux is unusable/"untrusted" on a machine.

    I also find it hard to believe that Microsoft will be able to lock the internet down to the point where only Windows workstations can get to websites anyways. /Even/ if it did happen, I doubt the EU would let it go far. So even if the corrupt US lets MS win, I can buy a web proxy in the EU for surfing. Sucks, but it's better than losing my right to choose.

    Daniel

  19. Big Deal by spidergoat2 · · Score: 0, Troll

    I can read my email without booting any of my computers. My email is stored on the server so it's available to me, (and probably anyone else that's so inclined), at anytime. ///Security, Ha!!!\\\

  20. don't shut down the pc by codepunk · · Score: 1, Insightful

    Well hell just tell them not to shut down the pc. Damn that was tough.....

    --


    Got Code?
    1. Re:don't shut down the pc by MrRTFM · · Score: 1

      Yeh, ok - I did that for a while - but the power bills add up. I know its uncool to say this here, but money got tight so a new 'turn off PC's when not in use' policy came into effect.

      I've got 3 kids and 5 PC's (most of em windows games machines) and I'd be real happy if you could just power on a PC and get the relevant data fast.

      --
      You can't expect to wield supreme executive power, just because some watery tart threw a sword at you
    2. Re:don't shut down the pc by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      You could if you had a RISC PC, which (being a great-great-granddaughter of the venerable BBC Microcomputer) has its entire OS in Flash PROM.

      Discs are for stuff you want to change often. Keeping an OS on disc implies you might want to change it often -- a tacit admission that there is something wrong with it.

    3. Re:don't shut down the pc by 1u3hr · · Score: 1
      Yeh, ok - I did that for a while - but the power bills add up.... I'd be real happy if you could just power on a PC and get the relevant data fast.

      Just turn the monitor off. Especially if it's a big CRT one. Saves wear and tear on starting and stopping the disks too.

  21. That is why I have a PDA..... by Sentosus · · Score: 2, Interesting

    Since it is instant on and negotiates with my 802.11b to grab emails in only a few seconds.

    1. Re:That is why I have a PDA..... by Felinoid · · Score: 1

      Same reason my mother has a PDA...
      Her PDAs were:
      Palm 7x, i705, Now she using the Tungston W and has become aware of the joys (and pains) of using a cell phone.

      I still have to remind her that I prefer she send me e-mail... not SMS.

      --
      I don't actually exist.
  22. Causing more problems than you solve? by Stopmotioncleaverman · · Score: 5, Insightful

    Surely this has,if nothing else, the potential to simply create more problems than it solves?

    Solved: Annoying need to wait for a few seconds while my machine comes out of hibernate mode.

    Problem: A plethora of BIOS destroying viruses and worms, spread by email, capable of rendering whole systems useless.

    Given the (frankly silly) amount of worms circulating in today's email, would this really produce a worthwhile benefit? I fail to see how this produces more good effects than bad. If you really, honestly, have such a pressed schedule that you can't wait for your machine to come out of hibernate mode then

    a) You need a less pressing job
    and
    b) What are you doing on /.? :P

  23. And, in a short while later. by OS24Ever · · Score: 1
    One can only imagine what other innocuous bells and whistles will be used to leverage DRM onto Joe Laptop's machine."

    ...the next big bad 'I Love You' type worm comes out and scrambles your windows before you even boot up!

    --

    As a rock-in-roll Physicist once said, No matter where you go, there you are.

    1. Re:And, in a short while later. by Bros · · Score: 1

      Root Kit anyone?

  24. file system by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 3, Insightful


    id rather my bios just connected the HD and not actually read data from my files thanks

    what happened to doing a task but doing that task really well

    if writing the bios is simple enough that you have time to add applications then just drop the price, my alternator for my car doesnt include extras with it just does its job cheaply and well

  25. Ya know from an IT point of view... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    this could be convienent. It bypasses windows logon to get the data directly. If for some reason, that's toast, at least you've got your information. One would hope that things are set up in a manner where this is of nearly trivial importance. But there are those situations where those vital e-mail responses written but not sent (or what have you) might be retrieved from the last gasp of a hard drive.

    The vulnerability of the BIOS to manipulation by this data is something of a remote concern, and the complexity introduced has it's issues, as many have said. But there are rare times when this could be damn convienent. Of course if you have one of these laptops and sensitive information, a little more encryption is probably in order, which immediately dispenses with the advantages, but hey....

  26. BIOS by r00zky · · Score: 4, Funny

    BIOS: Acronym for Basic Input-Output System


    s/Basic/Bloated/

    --
    I'm a chainsmokin' alcoholic sociopath, so-ci-o-path
    1. Re:BIOS by tepples · · Score: 1

      A famous science fiction author once predicted that the conception of BIOS would turn into a Built-In Operating System.

  27. No... you have it all wrong... by cnelzie · · Score: 5, Funny

    ...when you boot a computer equipped with this new BIOS you get the following:

    POST

    BIOS initialization

    Nag Screen Asking you if you want to read your email or continue to boot.

    Nag Screen Asking you if you want to read your email or continue to boot.

    Nag Screen Asking you if you want to read your email or continue to boot.

    Nag Screen Asking you if you want to read your email or continue to boot.

    Then you come back to your new computer with your cup of coffee expecting to see your Windows desktop...

    You hit the NO key, which is a combination of CTRL-SHIFT-N-Enter keys.

    Nag Screen Asking you if you are really sure you want to boot into the OS, because you can read your email from the BIOS.

    You confirm by contorting your hands and hitting the combination of keys confirming that you really want to boot into the OS.

    The comptuer boots and you enter Windows, check a few web sites and then check your email.

    Who the heck is going to use this? This seems like that 'wonderful' push technology that MS pushed so many years ago that turned out to be something nobody wanted.

    It's like the new "2-Stroke Gasoline Engine Powered Toothbrush". Sure, it might be more powerful then a plain old battery powered toothbrush, but nobody wants that stinky gasoline exhaust smell in the morning, plus it brushes to 'well' that the enamel on your teeth is removed after one use...

    --
    If you ignore the other uses of a tool, does that make the tool less useful, or you less useful?
    1. Re:No... you have it all wrong... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      No its:

      POST

      BIOS initialization

      Fatal exception 0000-1002 - Launching error reporting tool....

  28. Wrong tool for the job... by perly-king-69 · · Score: 4, Insightful

    Use your PDA for storing contacts, not the PC?

    --

    --
    This sig is inoffensive.

    1. Re:Wrong tool for the job... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      You mean so when the batteries go dead while you're on vacation, and your entire address book is erased, you have a good excuse for not contacting anyone?

    2. Re:Wrong tool for the job... by perly-king-69 · · Score: 1

      Ummm, your batteries don't have to go dead whilst you're on vacation.

      --

      --
      This sig is inoffensive.

    3. Re:Wrong tool for the job... by Phekko · · Score: 1

      Hmm. So what you're saying is you're less likely to run out of laptop-juice during a holiday or that your PDA consumes the battery faster than your laptop or what? If running out of batteries is your main concern, I suggest a notebook and a pencil. To be on the sure side, bring a few pencils so you always have at least one that's sharp.

      Seriously, I think all PDAs these days use a flash kinda memory that doesn't go blank if you run out of juice. And you DO have the option of bringing along a charger for the PDA. (Yes, I know, you can have the charger for the laptop with you, too. But the question seemed to do with PDAs and not having to wait a minute for the damned thing to boot up)

      --

      Sigs for Nerds. Sigs that Matter.
  29. Quick, where can I...? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Where can I buy one of these crippled computers?

  30. Wow! by inteller · · Score: 3, Funny

    So is there any way I can erase and use that 200Mb BIOS that it's going to take to cram in Outlook?

  31. DRM reads my email? by SatanicPuppy · · Score: 4, Funny

    I thought that's what we had the FBI for?

    --
    ad logicam Claiming a proposition is false because it was presented as the conclusion of a fallacious argument.
  32. Basic?? by Stiletto · · Score: 4, Insightful


    BIOS - Basic Input Output System

    What does checking Outlook email have to do with _Basic_ Input or Output? Why don't they keep going and put a spreadsheet in the BIOS while they're at it?

    1. Re:Basic?? by cowens · · Score: 1

      I think they read too much Snow Crash by Neal Stephenson. He expaned BIOS as Built In Operating System by mistake, but maybe it wasn't really a mistake after all.

    2. Re:Basic?? by 1u3hr · · Score: 2, Funny
      What does checking Outlook email have to do with _Basic_ Input or Output? Why don't they keep going and put a spreadsheet in the BIOS while they're at it?

      And the spreadsheet will have a flight simulator.

    3. Re:Basic?? by Speare · · Score: 1

      What does checking Outlook email have to do with _Basic_ Input or Output?

      I suggest you browse the security alerts for the past five years. I'd say that Outlook has a lot to do with the input and output of Basic.

      --
      [ .sig file not found ]
  33. BIOS means BASIC, damnit. by RedShoeRider · · Score: 5, Insightful
    BASIC Input/Output System

    From someone who did, once, inadvertantly flash a bios with the wrong firmware and have to go though the hell that ensued to get a new firmware chip....the idea that the BIOS can directly connect to potentially damaging information is downright frightning. Imagine the potential if they allowed dynamic updating (think windows update), and the hell that could ensue if someone figured out how to hack its updating system.

    Perhaps those email-hoxes of old about a virus completely destroying your computer were actually profetic.

    --

    Chris Knight is my hero.

  34. PhoenixNet by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Because they don't care for the average person, who can't tell a BIOS from an OS etc. Although reports have shown they discontinued their phone-home-BIOS a while ago, but this is part of their history:

    cexx.org/phoenix.htm

    Screw those who don't know any better, while they can.

  35. Re:BIOS means BASIC, damnit. by maxwell+demon · · Score: 1

    I guess that's the reason why the original IBM PC BIOS contained a BASIC interpreter?

    --
    The Tao of math: The numbers you can count are not the real numbers.
  36. Booting the computer? by codepunk · · Score: 1

    Wow nice that is something I do once a year.

    --


    Got Code?
  37. Actually provides access to COPY of Outlook Data by peterjt · · Score: 3, Interesting

    I've read elesewhere that all this is doing is making use of an Outlook "extension" that, on a regular basis COPIES data from Outlook to a seperate area that the "quick check" application in the BIOS can access.

    So really, saying that it's providing "access" to Outlook data is slightly misleading. It's actually providing BIOS data to a "shadow" copy of the Outlook data

  38. My Tablet PC (TC 1000) Already does this. by Gareth+Sargeant · · Score: 2, Interesting

    Come to think of it, it has a Phoenix BIOS. http://h18007.www1.hp.com/support/files/Compaqtabl etpc/us/download/19800.html " The QuickLook Utility is a collection of components which allow the user of a Tablet PC model listed below to quickly and conveniently view their personal information manager (PIM) data without booting the tablet all the way up into the operating system."

  39. Re:BIOS means BASIC, damnit. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    They probably thought "basic" stands for Visual Basic.

  40. ROM DRM bios ? by S3D · · Score: 1

    My guess the next thing will be DRM bios in the read only memory, not reflashable. Or bios divided into ROM and flash part, DRM in ROM part of cause. How likely is it that non-ROM bios will be made illegal and posseion of ROM burning equipment will require license ?

    1. Re:ROM DRM bios ? by maxwell+demon · · Score: 1

      Well, they'll make new DRM ROM burning equipment which will only let you burn ROMs with the proper DRM support module.

      --
      The Tao of math: The numbers you can count are not the real numbers.
    2. Re:ROM DRM bios ? by c_oflynn · · Score: 1

      It won't go that far.

      I remember a while ago when all analog input devices were going to be required to have the ability to detect copy-protected content. It never happened however - because it was just TOO ridiculous.

      Its the same thing - all the FLASH manufactures and 100% of other electronics companies will NOT go along with this. For most flash companies BIOS chips are probably a small fraction of total sales, so they cannot stand to have any retarted laws like that. So don't fear too mcuh!

  41. No you can't by spectrokid · · Score: 2, Informative
    The application cannot open or manipulate attachments, such as Adobe Acrobat .PDF files.

    RTFA, it will require a plugin in Outlook which basically will export your email to a flat ascii file which can be read by the BIOS. Not exactly the invention of the century, but I guess reasonably practical. If they make the fileformat open, you can program a linux version!!

    --

    10 ?"Hello World" life was simple then

    1. Re:No you can't by Felinoid · · Score: 2, Insightful

      Actually it wouldn't.
      I take you back to the days BEFORE e-mail viruses.
      Most users would read BBS e-mail from a PC with ANSI enables.

      There were some features and defects in the Microsoft provided ANSI driver that would permit someone to lock up your keyboard or crash your machine.

      For a while I used that feature as a cheap macro system. But I dumpped it for security sake.

      The point is that when you heep features on eventually something bad will happen.
      Adding the ability to read e-mail to BIOS certenly qualifys as "heeping features".

      It would make sense that typical outlook express viruses won't work on the Pheonix bios but that certenly dosen't stop anyone from develuping new ones.

      --
      I don't actually exist.
    2. Re:No you can't by Felinoid · · Score: 1

      Here is how I picture it.. BTW...

      The Virus would itself still be an outlook express virus but it could contain nonsensical text that outlook wouldn't do anything with.

      The text would however cause damage in Pheonix bios triggering some bios settings or internal text/logic features in the BIOS text reading libary.

      I don't see any flaw in BIOS being significant enough to carry a worm but I do see the possability for conflicting features.

      --
      I don't actually exist.
    3. Re:No you can't by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      RTFA, it will require a plugin in Outlook which basically will export your email to a flat ascii file which can be read by the BIOS

      I guess you're right ... BTW do you know off hand the ASCII char for system bell?

    4. Re:No you can't by DrSkwid · · Score: 1

      I don't see any flaw in BIOS being significant enough to carry a worm but I do see the possability for conflicting features.

      As Dexter Boy Genious would say 'yoo are stoopid'

      If there was a buffer overflow in the BIOS one could construct an email to execute arbitrary code.

      Arbitrary.

      Arbitrary code mean 'any code you like'.

      One can fit a bootloader and a plan9 kernel including TCP stack, drivers for 23 different ethernet cards and VGA drivers for 24 vga chipsets into less than 1MB.

      Even in 7bit ascii that's only 1.2Mb.

      Therefore I could craft you an email that booted plan9 and even gave you a 'VIRUS LOADING' Hollywood style splash screen as it sent it's worms on their merry way.

      --
      There are places where the networks are not touching,and there are places where they are-Boeing's Lori Gunter
    5. Re:No you can't by DrSkwid · · Score: 1


      ^G

      0x07

      --
      There are places where the networks are not touching,and there are places where they are-Boeing's Lori Gunter
  42. Re:Innovative! by cynical+kane · · Score: 1

    Except none of those technologies actually *exist*. Check Google. That should be obvious, but hey, someone modded this "informative"...

  43. OS on a RAM drive? by siglercm · · Score: 2, Interesting

    I usually don't have anything much to add, but at the risk of being shown how insignificant my thought is....

    Isn't running an "app." from the BIOS kinda like running an OS on a RAM drive? With this technique, isn't the BIOS is just a read-only image of a low-end OS to run a single app?

    I mean, when RAM drives are cheap, won't everything be similar to this, except a full-blown OS will run? If so, I'm not sure this has much to do with DRM at all, FWIW. Orthogonal, anyone?

    Clemmitt

    --
    sigfault (core dumped)
    1. Re:OS on a RAM drive? by cowens · · Score: 1

      The point is that they are trying to move the OS into the BIOS where it can be protected from our filthy hands. How can we circumvent the DRM if we have no access to code or the binaries? We will have to create our own BIOS chips to plug into the motherboards and we have seen what happens to mod-chippers in this country.

  44. Re:Greatest. Idea. Ever. (NOT?) by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Wait a minute. What you seem to be implying, is storing an OS in a fast (?) non-volatile ram is a bad idea.

    I think this idea, taken to the extreme, is a Good Idea. :) Hard Drives are slow. ;)

    I really also even question what we need a "BIOS" for, anyway. It seems.. so.. stupid. It's like a little OS loaded before the real OS is loaded. Is just it me, or is that really stupid?

  45. PhoenixNet rising from ashes by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Why are we surprised about Phoenix mucking up our BIOS? It's not like they haven't done similar things before. Don't any of you remember what they tried to do? You think PhoenixNet was dead until now.

    cexx.org/phoenix.htm
    slashdot.org/yro/01/06/19/ 2039216.shtml
    www.theregister.co.uk/content/55/20 486.html

  46. Reading mail clientside is dumb anyway by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    I don't understand why anybody in their right mind still retrieves their mail through a clientside app. Use webmail people! I put squirrelmail on my server and I've never had an email related virus on my windows machine since.

    So its not the lesser of two evils, its just one of a bunch of bad alternatives when there are good ones about.

    1. Re:Reading mail clientside is dumb anyway by innocent_white_lamb · · Score: 1

      I don't understand why anybody in their right mind still retrieves their mail through a clientside app.

      Because a local mail client application can be set to retrieve incoming mail every X minutes -- new mail magically appears on your desktop with no need to manually log in to the mailserver and check for your mail. No passwords to type, nothing to do at all, really.

      --
      If you're a zombie and you know it, bite your friend!
  47. A solution in search of a problem by Imperator · · Score: 1

    This just says to me that Phoenix is in trouble financially. They make what is essentially a commodity item that is becoming increasingly obsolete. There's no great innovation in the BIOS market because no one really uses the BIOS like they used to. So they're trying to cram new features into it.

    --

    Gates' Law: Every 18 months, the speed of software halves.
  48. Program evolution by srussell · · Score: 2, Insightful
    All programs evolve until they can send email.
    -- Richard Letts
    Jamie Zawinski, author of the original Netscape email program, is also quoted as rephrasing this as "All programs grow to encompass the functionality of email reading"

    They weren't kidding, were they? The corollary is, then, that all devices evolve until they can read email.

    1. Re:Program evolution by maxwell+demon · · Score: 2, Funny

      You mean, some day I'll be able to read email with my light switch?
      Maybe if I'm pressing it for more then 5 seconds it'll send me the message by morsing through the light bulb ...

      --
      The Tao of math: The numbers you can count are not the real numbers.
    2. Re:Program evolution by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0
      They weren't kidding, were they? The corollary is, then, that all devices evolve until they can read email.
      Oh don't I wish it stayed at that. Judging from my inbox I'm thinking that all devices evolve until they can send mail...
    3. Re:Program evolution by cowens · · Score: 1

      You mean, some day I'll be able to read email with my light switch?
      Maybe if I'm pressing it for more then 5 seconds it'll send me the message by morsing through the light bulb ...


      No, evolution is not the process of things getting better, it is the process of things that are not fit enough dying off. Eventually your light switch will be replaced by a houshold god^H^H^H computer that will turn lights on and off for you while reading your email aloud to you in a sexy voice. Oops. time for my meds.
  49. Not a novel idea by maximilln · · Score: 1

    I've been thinking for years about what it would take to get the BIOS to scan the PCI bus, find a network card, hook it to some memory registers, and allow port access. This could be described as a BIOS edition of NetBus or Sub7. Considering that a fully functional terminal program can be written in less than 10k and current BIOS chips have at least 64kb (that I'm aware of) this isn't rocket science to figure that the opportunity is there. I think the most difficult hurdle would be to account for different wiring paths in different chipsets.

    Honestly, I can't imagine that it hasn't been done already. I'm just waiting for /., Symantec, or McAfee to finally get their hands on one and make it public.

    Here in the US we *do* live in a police state, you know. And the Illuminati *are* worldwide.

    Hehehehe...

    --
    +++ATHZ 99:5:80
  50. Someone tell Phoenix... by akaina · · Score: 1

    ... that the B in BIOS stands for BASIC

    Why don't they just write an entire interface in the BIOS and scrap the OS completely? The BIOS should only be for settings in the hardware.

    --
    Remembering that you are going to die is the best way I know to avoid the trap of thinking you have something to lose.
    1. Re:Someone tell Phoenix... by KnightStalker · · Score: 1

      Maybe they're just Neal Stephenson fans.

      --
      * And remember, it's spelled N-e-t-s-c-a-p-e, but it's pronounced "Mozilla."
  51. and what happens when.... by schodackwm · · Score: 3, Interesting
    an unauthorized someone gets hold of your passworded laptop? Is it possible that you have mail or addresses that you don't want to share with thieves?

    I don't see any p/w or other protection mentioned in the PIM-in-NSBIOS (Not So Basic I/O sys)... so now I'm gonna need a dongle to secure the data?

    Amen to all who said vendors should leave the BIOS "basic."
    --
    [this sig has been trunca
  52. Built-in wireless surveillance. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1, Insightful

    It's not like the BIOS transmits info anywhere else or logs keystrokes. It's seems to be a quick boot access method to get to your PIM data. And, quite frankly - its ABOUT BLOODY TIME.

    With the coming of widespread wireless availability, the BIOS will soon be able to access your PIM data without needing to boot the full O/S *and* ship a copy of all your email off to the FBI/DHS/ATF/DEA/Microsoft without your knowledge.

    And coming from the perspective of US government law enforcement personnel, quite frankly it's ABOUT BLOODY TIME.

  53. Re:Actually provides access to COPY of Outlook Dat by paramecio · · Score: 2, Interesting
    Seriously, I think you don't need DRM in order to accomplish this plain task. Also word 'Outlook' would be a pitiful addition to the original post, as this "separate area" could be written by any mail client, remote server monitor, autopr0n rss news feed, or whatever ;)

    I want my machine to do whatever I want it to do. When computers start to behave differently, I'll stop using them. Or I'll start looking for old C64 schematics! I can imagine my laptop shutting me outside my home. Or filling my police record! Do you remember HAL? :)

  54. About the stupidest thing I have ever heard of by TheHornedOne · · Score: 2, Flamebait

    This just shows what a pile of crap the Windows portable architecture is. My Powerbook hasn't been rebooted since the last time I updated the OS (current 68 days ago). When I open the screen, it's ready to work in 10 seconds. It joins whatever wireless network is available and checks my mail, immediately. When I close the screen, it goes to sleep. This is in stark contrast to the legions of Windows laptop users I know that *know* about 'Hibernate' mode or whatnot but are mortified to use it since they're basically assured of a blue screen or other egregious crash as a result of doing so. But really, instead of fixing the problem, let's move important functionality to the BIOS. That'll be GREAT!

    1. Re:About the stupidest thing I have ever heard of by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      10 seconds? What takes so long? Compared with Windows' 6 seconds, Apple falls behind again.

    2. Re:About the stupidest thing I have ever heard of by mrklin · · Score: 1

      I use an iBook and the claimed uptime of months is just BS. Did you not apply the 10.3.3 update or Java 1.4.2 update, or all the numerous security updates that require rebooting?

  55. They changed name! by Den_onda_kotten · · Score: 2, Funny

    You guys are so behind, phoenix changed name to Firebird and then Firefox a looong time ago.

  56. The bios reads your email... by Hoplite3 · · Score: 2, Funny

    Hey! The BIOS and I have something in common!

    --
    Use the Firehose to mod down Second Life stories!
    1. Re:The bios reads your email... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Yeah, that's what the t-shirt says

  57. Let M$/Phoenix kill themselves with DRM by kb8rln · · Score: 2, Interesting

    Let Microsoft/Phoenix kill themselves.

    Did not M$ learn any thing from the Intel serial number in the processor, killing there sells. The only reason that M$ does not want to do the DRM in the OS is that it does not want to have to share the APIs ( because of antitrust ) and can lock in people to M$ to look at there own documents if you go to switch to Linux that your will loose your documents.

  58. Re:Greatest. Idea. Ever. (NOT?) by hoggoth · · Score: 2, Insightful

    I never implied anything about non-volatile RAM. The article is about a mini-OS in ROM or PROM. It's not the same thing at all. Whatever they stick in that PROM will be obsolete in weeks. I don't want an OS in my boot PROM. As you said, the whole "BIOS" is a stupid idea. The boot PROM should be a minimal bit of code that knows enough to read data from a boot sector on a hard disk, a CDROM, and a floppy, then execute whatever it found on that boot sector. Leave the rest up to the OS.
    The right way to do what Phoenix is proposing (if it should be done at all) is to change the OS so that it has a 'fast boot mini-mode' that comes up right away without the entire 5 minutes of booting everything. But Phoenix doesn't make OSes, they make boot PROMs. So their solution is to put it in the boot PROM. I'm sure if this was "Subway"s idea they would put a mini-OS in a lean turkey sandwhich and issue a press release that it was a great idea.

    --
    - For the complete works of Shakespeare: cat /dev/random (may take some time)
  59. lock in by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    this is nothing but microsoft lock in - why aren't they doing it for other email readers.

    trusted computing means microsoft only.
    now phoenix can be brought in the monopoly suit as well.

    I am getting so sick of the IT industry - I am really thinking of changing carreers.

    thank god for linux - it keeps my sanity.

  60. does no one else see this for what it really is by andalay · · Score: 0, Flamebait

    more M$ lock in

  61. So called trusted computing will result in... by Fuzuli · · Score: 4, Insightful

    birth of new companies, or rise of small ones. Why ? because i will certainly prefer a bios with no crap built in, and many others like me, will create the demand for such computers. Even if most players in hardware scene prefer to sell "secured" products, there will be a huge demand for clean bioses and computers.
    Remember what happened when overclocking became something that most guys at least wanted to try ? One by one, all motherboard manufacturers (except Intel of course) began to produce models that allowed better support for overclocking. Now it's easy to modify bus speed by a precision of 1 mhz or something if i'm not wrong. No jumper mess or other weird tricks are necessary ( i remember taping of some parts on my celeron 300 to have 2.4 volts)
    So, MS or whomever supports this kind of movements will create a huge push for migration to more open systems. It's not hard to guess that all major apps will suddenly refuse to work on "untrusted" computers. So, that will create another great oppurtunity for open source software, for it'll possibly be the only option to work on "clean" computers.
    So there is a strong possibilty forusers migrating to "open" alternatives, which may create a nice **ck y*u effect to MS and supporters of such "trusted" environments

    1. Re:So called trusted computing will result in... by Viol8 · · Score: 1

      Nice idea in theory , but you're forgetting the sheep mentality that afflicts 99% of PC users. If MS/Intel/Phoenix say its a good idea then baa baa
      it must be a good one. And even if they don't think about even that much they'll just go with the flow and buy whatever everyone else has.

    2. Re:So called trusted computing will result in... by Fuzuli · · Score: 1

      Sure, most of the time this is true, but this time, DRM and other "phone home" features will make computers impossible to use for people. Not all the countries in the world has citizens with enough income to buy copyrighted material. Don't think that those bioes will be only in computers sold in USA, think of asia , and rest of the world with less income
      In most of the cases, people choose illegal use of software, and most home users or even businesses don't get caught.
      But it's completely different thing to be unable to listen the mp3 they've downloaded from emule or [insert your favorite P2P app here]
      The divx movie of the film which will come to your country 4 months later (and will have a DVD price which is 10% of your monthly income) will not work in these trusted computers.
      Believe me, this is a totally different story than usual case. People can act like sheep but when they notice that all the stuff that makes them buy a computer doesn't work on some brands, they'll switch to one that can satisfy them
      I don't want to argue about software prices or i don't want to look like i'm supporting illegal software, but this is a fact. Moving the functionality of applying/enforcing laws from legal institutions to computers is a huge step, and it will have much more stronger consequences, even for the sheep.

    3. Re:So called trusted computing will result in... by DirkDaring · · Score: 1

      Until MSFT, the RIAA, MPAA etc all get a law passed requiring DRM in all bios hardware.

      Don't think it can be done? Try going to Wal Mart, Best Buy, Circuit City etc and see if you can buy a DVD player that doesn't have Macrovision in it.

  62. Re:BIOS means BASIC, damnit. by dabadab · · Score: 1

    "Perhaps those email-hoxes of old about a virus completely destroying your computer were actually profetic."

    Well, those email-hoaxes about viruses spreading in email most certainly were prophetic.

    --
    Real life is overrated.
  63. BIOS BLoat by nurb432 · · Score: 1

    Once you start adding features like this, its no longer a BIOS, its a ROM based OS...

    The role of a BIOS is just to provide a abstraction layer between the OS and the hardware ( ok, and to get the OS booted.. ).. thats it.. nothing more nothing less..

    --
    ---- Booth was a patriot ----
    1. Re:BIOS BLoat by Viol8 · · Score: 1

      These days it doesn't even get used as an abstraction layer, most (all?) 32 bit OSs use
      their own drivers. The BIOS is simply there for
      bootstrapping the loader program.

  64. Now, a toshiba laptop I recently purchased by way2trivial · · Score: 1

    has a built in SD slot....
    if a laptop had a built in CF slot designed with intent, you could buy CF equal to your ram, and use it for your suspend/hibernate write out of memory instead of a drive, and it should run a damn sight quicker.. no?

    --
    every day http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Special:Random
    1. Re:Now, a toshiba laptop I recently purchased by dublin · · Score: 1

      if a laptop had a built in CF slot designed with intent, you could buy CF equal to your ram, and use it for your suspend/hibernate write out of memory instead of a drive, and it should run a damn sight quicker.. no?

      No, probably not. As slow as hard disks are, they're often faster than flash.

      The *real* problem here is OS bloat: suspend/resume takes a long time because it quite simply takes bloody forever to write out the contents of RAM, especially when RAM on most machines now is larger than the hard disk itself was only several years ago!

      What Phoenix is doing here is great, and we should applaud it: They are replacing the bloated pigs of operating systems we use with a lean, fast, usable system that is ready for use instantly. To my mind, it's about time someone did this, and I hope this BIOS-OS finds its way into all of the hardware of the future.

      This isn't nearly as much about the bogeyman of DRM (which I really couldn't care less about) as it is about bringing a new and valuable capability to our computers.

      BTW: It's very likely that this idea will spread, and Linux and BSD-based BIOSes of this type are the logical direction to go, since BIOS vendors will (reasonably enough) want to avoid having to pay license tribute. I see nothing but upside here.

      --
      "The future's good and the present is nothing to sneeze at." - Roblimo's last ./ post
    2. Re:Now, a toshiba laptop I recently purchased by dublin · · Score: 1

      I meant to make clear in the post above that the idea of a slim, fast BIOS-OS is a good idea in many cases, not all cases - it doesn't fit everywhere, but there is a lot that we could learn from looking at the capabilities of a well-designed ROM-based OS environment.

      For instance, have you ever noticed how much PalmOS is like the original Macintosh OS? A ROM-based OS with not only basic infrastructure functionality, but also a toolbox ROM defining UI elements that can be called on by the applications. This is a poserful idea, and it deserves a modern tratment by someone. Whether Phoenix is going to do it well is still very much a valid question...

      --
      "The future's good and the present is nothing to sneeze at." - Roblimo's last ./ post
    3. Re:Now, a toshiba laptop I recently purchased by RevDobbs · · Score: 1
      This is a poserful idea

      Yeah, Palm always wanted as big of a following as Macs get. Biters.

    4. Re:Now, a toshiba laptop I recently purchased by Tassach · · Score: 1

      An OS in ROM makes a whole lot of sense for a constrained hardware platform. Most of the 8-bit computers had a significant part of their OS in ROM. One of the major reasons the Amiga worked as well as it did was that it's OS was significantly ROM based.

      --
      Why is it that the proponents of "one nation under God" are so eager to get rid of "liberty and justice for all"?
  65. But, by Duhavid · · Score: 1

    That "wonderful push technology" *was* very usefull for killing a company I once worked at.

    Yes, that good old MS *innovation* at work again.

    --
    emt 377 emt 4
  66. New! Phoenix alternator by Duhavid · · Score: 1

    It will read your email, without you having to start your car!

    You know you need that!

    --
    emt 377 emt 4
  67. GNU/Linux/DRM by Rogerborg · · Score: 0, Offtopic

    You read it here first.

    --
    If you were blocking sigs, you wouldn't have to read this.
  68. You can already do this on the HP Tablet by digithead · · Score: 2, Insightful
    The HP TC1100 has a Phoenix BIOS and by applying a patch at HP's site you can enable this feature. It bascially copies Outlook data to a SD card. You can choose to copy manually or everytime Outlook starts. When the tablet is turned off you can access this data by pressing the buttion that toggles the external display and holding it for a couple of seconds. It works when the unit is in hibernate mode too. I used it a lot until I got a Blackberry and started using the wireless mail and calendar reconciliation.

    --
    Once you lick the lollipop of mediocrity, you'll suck forever!
  69. Get A Mac by sulli · · Score: 1
    Sorry, had to say it.

    All the Toshibas I have used have had a very simple sleep process:

    1. Sleep
    2. Awake
    3. BSOD

    Haven't had this difficulty with any PowerBook I've owned, and I've owned four, even the famous Exploding PowerBook 5300.

    So yes, instead of fucking around with DRM, perhaps the BIOS makers would do better to make the fucking BIOS that's already there work. Perhaps.

    --

    sulli
    RTFJ.
  70. You guys are missing the sarcasm. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    The parent poster is not actually being serious, he's suggesting improving Windows' hibernate/resume support to the point where you could turn the computer on and be where you left off in a matter of seconds.

    Well, I thought it was kind of obvious, anyways.

    1. Re:You guys are missing the sarcasm. by hoggoth · · Score: 1

      > Well, I thought it was kind of obvious, anyways.

      So did I, but then again I wrote it. :-)

      --
      - For the complete works of Shakespeare: cat /dev/random (may take some time)
  71. It's clear. by incom · · Score: 1

    With all their previous initiatives with MS that they are now a firmly entrenched MS shop now. Are there even other bios manufacturers anymore? And if so, which major MB manufacturers don't use pheonix bios so I can speak with my wallet?

    --
    True genius is grasping a situation like a peice of fruit, and peircing it just right so that it drains dry.
  72. Progress! by Syberghost · · Score: 1

    If they keep this up, pretty soon you'll be able to turn your PC on, and it'll load an entire operating system!

    Wait...

  73. Phoenix/Firefox by Neward+Rylet · · Score: 1

    For a moment I thought this was about privacy issues with what is now "Firefox".

  74. Flash ROM? by gilesjuk · · Score: 1

    Would be a lot more useful if the BIOS booted your PC in about 5 seconds so you didn't need to bother with such silly BIOS features. Hibernation brings laptops out of standby fast, why not leverage this method to speed up the booting of PCs? sure you'd have to recreate the boot image in the flash ROM after an upgrade of system files, but that wouldn't take long.

  75. Re:BIOS means BASIC, damnit. by RedShoeRider · · Score: 1
    You have a point.

    But the original IBM PC BIOS was written back when the internet wasn't even a wet dream yet, and concepts like live updates weren't even born. Notice that the feature didn't live on into the 1990's. There's a reason for that.

    --

    Chris Knight is my hero.

  76. Security and Patching Issues by randomwalker · · Score: 1

    As more and more services get implemented in BIOS, the more likely we will need to patch BIOSes for security problems. This is of course more difficult and risky than patching an OS.

    I personally believe than services should be migrated away from BIOS altogether, and BIOS should only play a role in bootup.
    some detail on BIOS and trusted computing can be found here
    http://www.marzenka.com/trusted_computing_bios.htm

  77. Time for GNU BIOS? by OhHellWithIt · · Score: 1

    Lessee.... Software vendors are ready to sell us out to the marketers and anyone else; OS vendors (okay, "vendor") are ready to sell us out; even BIOS vendors are ready to spy on us. Maybe we need a GNU BIOS project.

    Maybe I'll just go back to my Olivetti typewriter!

    --
    "Who controls the past controls the future. Who controls the present controls the past." -- George Orwell
    1. Re:Time for GNU BIOS? by Phroggy · · Score: 2, Informative
      --
      $x='S24;r)>63/* h@<5+oZ)32"5cz';$me='phroggy'x$];
      $x=~y+ -xz+\0-Tx+;print$_^chop$me for split'',$x;
  78. Just one small problem... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Use your PDA for storing contacts

    But I'm not a homersexual, so I don't own a PDA.

  79. BASIC? by tepples · · Score: 1

    the B in BIOS stands for BASIC

    Then why do so few PCs have a ROM BASIC interpreter? It seems that some platforms have gone to Open Firmware, which could be termed FIOS, for Forth Input Output System. But imagine... VB.NET in ROM?

    1. Re:BASIC? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Then why do so few PCs have a ROM BASIC interpreter? It seems that some platforms have gone to Open Firmware, which could be termed FIOS, for Forth Input Output System. But imagine... VB.NET in ROM?

      Uhh... That would be basic as in simple, not the language.

    2. Re:BASIC? by IntergalacticWalrus · · Score: 1

      But imagine... VB.NET in ROM?

      I'd rather not. That would most likely tear a hole in the very fabric of reality as we know it.

  80. I guess if the OS on your laptop is so... by exp(pi*sqrt(163)) · · Score: 1

    ...unstable that you don't want to boot into it, or you can't sleep from it, then it might be useful to have this stuff in the BIOS. I recommend getting a decent OS installed.

    --
    Doesn't it make you feel good to know that our freedoms are protected by politicans, lawyers and journalists.
  81. ... innocuous ... by DrJimbo · · Score: 1


    "You keep using that word!" the Spaniard snapped. " I don't think it means what you think it does."

    --
    We don't see the world as it is, we see it as we are.
    -- Anais Nin
  82. Re:S.m.a.r.t. is for the HD by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    That means, your anti-virus product hasn't been launched yet, but you can still read that funny mail telling you to "see this amazing attachment".

    They aren't providing a Win32 api, none of the common Windows viruses will work.

    That means, if you can fake that you're really just the BIOS requesting the information, you can make a virus that can access all the information it needs - undetected.

    Except that it's probably easier to get at that information any other way. BIOS is in ring 0, virus is in ring 3. BIOS can do anything.

  83. Re:Greatest. Idea. Ever. (NOT NOT NOT) by h4rm0ny · · Score: 1


    we keep extending the BIOS until it's a fully featured OS in it's own right

    Not sure if you were aware of this when you said that, but Pheonix has plans to incorporate a browser into their BIOS's. So it looks like that means full internet connectivity built into their BIOS.

    Why is this a bad idea to me? Well first is one of principle - they are duplicating the functionality of the OS. This offends every particle of my OO code reusing, database normalising, C++ memory conserving Soul... but it might not bother you.

    The manifestations of violating this principle however are clearer. How far can we cut down the functionality for the BIOS version? If we have networking capability, HTTP protocol handling, filesystem handling (neccessary for a browser to download anything for keeps, cache anything, etc.) then hadn't we better include some firewall software in the BIOS. And if our BIOS is this sophisticated then we're going to have to improve on the basic nature of BIOS virus scanners. Where do we draw the line?

    So yes - you are right in that you're starting down the road of a full OS in ROM and it looks like that's what they're planning.

    Now much as I liked my old Spectrum 16k with it's ROM OS, and much as I liked the way it booted in 0.5 seconds, is it suitable to modern use? No! And the reason is that that ROM could never be upgraded.

    Now a modern BIOS can be upgraded, but what we're talking about here is much more than the usual upgrade. Do you really want to be getting Security Updates for your BIOS in the same way you do for your OS?

    And there is one other problem with this. And to many on /. it is a very serious one. Do you trust it? When my BIOS is little and just handles the CPU speed etc. I am content. I have Linux on my box and I can see what my computer is doing if I want to. How easy do think it would be to demand open source BIOS though?

    It's a whole new uphill struggle, just when you thought we'd got to the top.

    Give me a simple BIOS that does the minimum. I'll have the OS do the rest.

    --

    Aide-toi, le Ciel t'aidera - Jeanne D'Arc.
  84. Why trust non-free firmware? by MisterBad · · Score: 1

    I mean, we've got the OpenBIOS project, Linux BIOS, and FreeBIOS.

    Isn't it time to cut out the last bits of non-free software in the computer?

    --
    Evan Prodromou | evan@prodromou.name | http://evan.prodromou.name/
  85. Mini-OSes by kavau · · Score: 2, Interesting
    It seems rather ridiculous to put features such as email into the BIOS. Of course this is just a marketing ploy to spark interest in their DRM BIOS, but actually they do have a point: Who needs all the features of a full-powered, multitasking multimedia operating system to do such mundane things as quickly checking for email?

    A better, and actually quite sensible, solution, would be to have a number of highly specialized mini-operating systems on your computer: One that runs in text mode and boots in a few seconds, for checking email, or remotely logging into another machine; one that boots even qicker, for taking notes at a meeting; another one for watching DVDs (I believe Linux is making inroads here already...); a third one with the capability of browsing simple web sites (no Java, Flash, etc.) Of course what I called different operating systems will probably just be one and the same operating system, with different services enabled. All that's needed is actually the possibility to start the OS in different configurations, and the ability to shut down all but the most essential services (which shouldn't be many).

  86. Can we just start the damn revolution already? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    My trigger finger is getting itchy, I really want to start the killing and maiming and martyring over DRM, trusted computing, and other facets of Fascist Amerika.

    I'm serious. Let the bloodshed begin with a nuke on Washington.

  87. remember who were dealing with by pixel+fairy · · Score: 1

    it only going to be optional untill they get enough people on it. if they didnt make it optional they would scare away users like the pentium cpu id did (yey for AMD)

    when its no longer optional, things will be alot harder for free software.

    fortunately some other countrys are begenning to see bill for what he is. so the US may end up being the only country in the subtle orwellian nightmare. (maybe more huxly like, our chains will be golden)

    unfortunately apple is too expensive for most people

  88. Not so black and white. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Whilst the BIOS will show virus ridden email, it will not execute virus content,

    When "showing the email" can mean rendering fonts, HTML, flash, images, and the like, the line between "executing" and "showing" gets blurred.

  89. Almost an order of magnitude different here by reanjr · · Score: 1

    Hmmm... I don't know what it is, but the two machines I just tried it on came back up in 8 seconds and 10 seconds respectfully. Might it be that the machine cut costs somewhere on the hardware, slowing the process down?

    FYI: The machine that took 10 seconds had a commit charge of 290MB.

  90. Neal Stephenson & "BIOS" by No+Such+Agency · · Score: 1

    He himself admitted it was an error, but a cool-sounding one. I wouldn't call it a "prediction" :-)

    --
    Freedom: "I won't!"
  91. Also... by IntergalacticWalrus · · Score: 1

    Wait, there's more:
    - Phoenix DRM sells drugs to your kids !
    - Phoenix DRM kills your dog !
    - Phoenix DRM sleeps with your wife !
    - Phoenix DRM lights your house on fire !
    etc...

    1. Re:Also... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Nope,

      That's what SCO is already saying about Linux. (and I think they licenced this particular IP)

  92. broken link by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0
    http://www.cexx.org/phoenix.htm doesn't seem to work.


    how about: This one?

  93. The headline is highly misleading by Pan+T.+Hose · · Score: 1

    "Phoenix DRM Reads Your E-Mail" is very misleading. I would recommend changing it as soon as possible. It is not "Your E-Mail" but only Microsoft Outlook data format on a Microsoft Windows partition and file system! I realize that uneducated people often say "e-mail virus" when they really mean "Microsoft Outlook virus" but this is Slashdot for god's sake, not FOX News!

    --
    Sincerely,
    Pan Tarhei Hosé, PhD.
    "Homo sum et cogito ergo odi profanum vulgus et libido."
  94. Parent is right by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    I checked and this is true: I use Mutt on ext3 and it seems that I am safe, contrary to what the headline seems to imply. Please mod parent up. Very true.

    1. Re:Parent is right by Count+Karnstein · · Score: 1
      Let's not mod grandparent up. The parent AC and grandparent poster are actually the same, Pan T. Hose. He has a history of responding as AC to his own comments and requesting that he be modded up.

      Some evidence here, here, here and here.

      And if that's not enough, read this entire thread; especially this message made me cringe.

  95. A Freudian slip perhaps? by tepples · · Score: 1

    I wouldn't call [Stephenson's BIOS expansion error] a "prediction"

    Dr. Freud would have.

  96. No it doesn't by 0x0d0a · · Score: 1

    Modern laptops cache the video image that was visible upon shutdown and restore it to give the image of instantly waking up. The idea is that you aren't going to *do* anything significant for a bit of time after you see the thing awake, and during that time the rest of the wakeup can be finished.

    Not that that's a misfeature -- it seems to work reasonably well -- but there's no way to "instantly" wake up a laptop. You have to read much of the contents of RAM back from the disk, one way or another.

  97. No attachments by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    The application cannot open or manipulate attachments, such as Adobe Acrobat .PDF files.

  98. WTF? by Lord+Kano · · Score: 1

    Every time there is an announcement made about something that is so very obviously a BAD thing we get people like this asshat, trying to pretend that it's a good idea.

    People like this would praise prison rapists as freedom fighters who want to rid jails of constipation.

    LK

    --
    "Hi. This is my friend, Jack Shit, and you don't know him." - Lord Kano
  99. Re:BIOS means BASIC, damnit. by TheLink · · Score: 1

    In order for users to get the proper MS Outlook[1] experience the next version of the BIOS will support Visual Basic. :)

    BTW: Phoenix has done spyware before.

    [1] AKA Microsoft Lookout & MS Lookout Express.

    --