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'Civilization on Mars' Claims Debunked
StarEmperor writes "Bad Astronomy's Phil Plait has finally taken some time to
debunk conspiracy theorist Richard Hoagland's claims about life on Mars. There's also a CNN story about this here."
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Russians found liquid water on Mars!
http://www.libo.ru
Iraq: war to save the U
This sort of thing simply exemplifies the sad state of science education in the general public. People when presented with the most superficial of data will adopt as truth the most extreme or absurd of claims with no critical assessment. This sort of blind trust allows folks to be taken in by claims of better health through unproven herbal supplements or claims of penile enlargments. On more serious notes, the lack of critical thinking among some has led to political and international policy that threatens to influence the state of world affairs.
Visit Jonesblog and say hello.
Daffy Duck told me Marvin the Martian was there and was going to destroy the earth! Don't tell me television has been lying to me all these years.
Hold up, wait a minute, let me put some pimpin in it
Oh come on, laugh. It's silly AND funny!
More seriously, why is it that the US seems to get more than its fair share of crackpots like this guy? Is it just because they're more able to make themselves heard (high tech, relatively rich society), or is it [tin hat] something more sinister [/tin hat] ? Perhaps it just seems that way from over here in the UK (officially the worlds least-likely to believe the walking-on-water and rising-from-the-dead thing - can't find the link though it was a bbc report recently), but there seem to be more potential tin-hatters from across the pond than just about anywhere else, even if you take into account the population differences (the US is less than 5x the UK...)
Simon.
Physicists get Hadrons!
Humans in general like to think they are the supreme being / race.
The conspiracy saids scientists know a whole lot more. But the public probably can't handle the truth.
WTF? So now Total Recall is all fake too? There's 2 hours of 'science learning' I'll never get back.
But he's be on TV and the radio. People on TV and the radio are never wrong.
Oh, also, he claims if he weren't right, people wouldn't spend time trying to say he's wrong.
Why bother debunking something so stupid? Just gives the conspiracy theorists more to talk about.
Also, anyone capable of rational thought would not believe such garbage in the first place. Anyone stupid enough to believe something that stupid isn't worth correcting.
Can I take off my tinfoil hat now? It's kind of itchy. And hot.
to prove all these claims, in a scientific manner:
i) Look at those cavemen go
ii) Take a look at the lawman, beating up the wrong man
iii) See the mice in their million hordes, from Ibiza to the Norfolk broads
iv) ?????
v) Profit
Oh.. you mean you are talking about the real planet Mars?
Hey, that's my password you are typing
...ie, if they find bacteria of some sort, many people will be even *more* confused, since "Life On Mars" claims have already been "debunked".
I guess it's a fact of modern life that conspiracy theorists like Mr. Hoagland make discerning fact from fiction more difficult... thankfully, Phil Plait has been on the case, and doing a great job.
libertarianswag.com
Actually, the claims aren't really debunked, instead, Plait attacks Hoaglands credibility.
Oh, and this article is old, there's already a rebuttal over at Enterprisemission
Life on Mars is not 'Civilization' on Mars.
Phil Plait should be given some award for his work in debunking bullshit.
What suitable options are there?
This story is about Richard Hoagland.
And in other news, NASA's Mission to the Giant Turtle has been canceled.
One man's -1 Flamebait is another man's +5 Funny.
...ah, screw it. Too easy.
In Soviet Russia, Chuck Norris will still kick your ass.
From the linked site:
A few days later, the Opportunity rover left its lander and started roving across Mars. In images returned after that, it looked like Opportunity had run over the "bunny"! Worse, Opportunity had made a little side excursion while moving, making it look like NASA had run over the object on purpose. Was NASA trying to cover up the existence of an alien?
No, they were trying to hide evidence of the Easter Bunny! Conspiracy!
They at least could have waited until after Easter. Bastards.
I want to drag this out as long as possible. Bring me my protractor.
....but it's still not there....it will land some day tho..........
1. No sig. 2. ???? 3. Profit!!!
I'm glad this made the front page. Phil Plait is a force for Good...or at least Sense, and deserves all the recognition he can get.
If you're going to pound his server, at least click through his advertisers and think about buying his book, huh?
-Carolyn
Like Daddy always said: if you can't dazzle 'em with brilliance, baffle 'em with bullshit.
Plait: What happen?
....
Mechanic: Someone blow up us the Beagle!
Plait: What!
Operator: Main screen turn on!
Plait: It's you!!
Hoagland: How are you gentlemen!!
Hoagland: All your mars rover are belong to aliens
Hoagland: You are on the way to destruction
Plait: What you say?
Hoagland: You have no chance to explore mars junk
Hoagland: Ha ha ha
Operator: Dr. Plait!!
Captain: Take off every 'Beagle'!!
Captain: Move 'Beagle'.
Captain: For great justice.
Ok... I know it sucks... but laugh. You knew it was coming. At least it wasnt goatse!
This is exactly what they want you to believe. Shhhhh.
-
Tech News, Reviews and Tutorials
Hoagland has some wild theories based on the flimsiest of evidence and even doctored photographs (introducing symmetry where none existed for example). He's a guy who just can't let go of his pet theories in the face of mounting evidence refuting them.
What really gets me annoyed with this guy though is when he starts criticizing NASA & accusing them of dishonesty & coverup when the data don't match his preposterous theories. Half the time it's his own technical ignorance that's the problem.
The guy just doesn't understand that we'd all like to find evidence of life on Mars, bipedal walking around life most of all, but we can't let that cloud our judgement.
If mankind ever does find evidence of life on Mars it'll be no thanks to fools like Hoagland, although I'm sure he'll be the first to say "I told you so".
Claims on the basis of the most tennuous of evidence and outlandish conjecture are worse than useless.
Marvin
If any of you tinfoil hatters are interested... (via anomalist.com)
....
....
... now 25 years old.
... such as Plait and Greenberg.
... and a lesser tidal input maintaining a current possible "liquid ocean for Europa."
I found it hilarious that the photo link Hoagland provides at the end goes to a page with a caption that mentions him as an "unidentified guest".
http://www.enterprisemission.com/response.htm
Email Exchange From Rob Roy Britt of Space.com
And Richard C. Hoagland on the Plait\Greenberg Allegations
In a message dated 3/12/2004 3:14:35 PM Mountain Standard Time, rbritt@HQ.SPACE.com writes:
Hi Richard:
I will be going into some of these issues. Your serious criticism of NASA
requires that I discuss your credentials as well. I just spoke with Ralph
Greenberg, who has analyzed some of your biographical claims that on your
web site. I've read them too, and indeed your web site clearly says that you
claim to have been the first to propose the Europa ideas. If you'd like to
respond to Greenberg's comments, feel free to e-mail me back.
Rob
Here is what Greenberg said to me:
"It's clear that [Hoagland] deserves no credit for proposing an ocean under
the ice on Europa." And regarding the notion of life: "Others before him
wrote on the same topic with more merit."
Greenberg says Hoagland deserves some credit for helping to popularize the
Europa ideas. But he is bothered that Hoagland does not make an effort to
clear the record.
"He never made it quite clear that this was not his original idea in any
sense," Greenberg said. "I think it's really shameful that he hasn't been
willing to make it crystal clear."
Rob,
OK, here's the real story behind Plait's current accusations
Greenberg is the source. It is his long-standing "Hoagland obsession" -- which has been going on for years, and can be characterized as nothing less -- that is a clear example of how far certain people are willing to go to smear our reputation and our work. This is a classic case of what I pointed out a couple days ago, about these baseless accusations being fundamentally "political"
I would hope, as a good reporter, you would prefer to rely on "primary sources" for your story -- as opposed to merely "hearsay" from third parties -- certainly third parties with an obvious political agenda. I would therefore strongly recommend that you begin by actually reading my original 1980 article, "The Europa Enigma" (on the Enterprise website -- http://www.enterprisemission.com/europa.html) -- which appeared in the January, 1980 issue of Star & Sky Magazine
In the entire article -- at no time -- do I take undue credit for the original idea of a potential ocean under Europa's icy surface. That is a skillfully spun fiction -- created specifically by our less than honest critics
What I actually do in this extensive paper is clearly credit Cassen, Peale and Reynolds -- who originated and published in Science Magazine the first tidal model for internal Jovian satellite heating, just before Voyager 1 arrived at Jupiter in early 1979. I clearly credit their original calculations regarding the possibility of tidal heating of Io
But, I also carefully cite their strong caveat (in the then just-published Science tidal paper) that, depending on certain "incalculable factors," such an originally liquid Europan ocean could have frozen solid in the 4.5 billion years of subsequent solar system history.
In other words, in their published model, there was a more than even chance that Europa's ocean now was no longer liquid -- but had become a 100 miles-deep glacier of solid ice! And, if this was the case, if such an original Europan ocean had ever frozen solid, their own tidal calculations in Science clearly stated it could never be unfrozen!
This is where the dishonest critics have carefully,
You know, for the longest time I thought Hoagland's website was a joke - kind of like Villain Supply. I didn't think he actually took it seriously. He really does seem to believe what he writes, enough to go onto the radio.
It's really quite sad.
... of course I am not the first one to come across that.
It is already there (among others).
CC.
TaijiQuan (Huang, 5 loosenings)
The guy just doesn't understand that we'd all like to find evidence of life on Mars, bipedal walking around life most of all, but we can't let that cloud our judgement.
On the contrary-- I think he understands this fact very well. I think people want there to be life in space, especially close to home. Hoaglad feeds off of this, and uses it to his advantage. And he makes money in doing so... I would be very surprised if he honestly believed his own crazy ideas. People believe because they want to, not because there is any substantial evidence...
[FromTheMorning]
An image from the Mars Global Surveyor is said to be a gargantuan, glass-like worm
An apparent bit of spacecraft debris from the rover mission, photographed by Spirit, was dubbed a "bunny"
And Satan showed up on 9/11 too.
I had no idea Space Ghost has that many followers... must be the Martians watching Adult Swim via satellite...
Check out the best P2P sharing website: MEDIACHEST.COM
While I agree with your assessment on the state of public education, for the Hoagland's of the world this is not about science, this is about religion. These extraterrestrials amongst us believers need to live a world with an external purpose and reason for being. They will never get that from science and feel conventional religions are beneath them or just too unbelievable. For these folks its not just about extraterrestrial life, which rational science types like me find totally plausible, it's the whole they live amongst us, they are so much more advanced, they created us and have a purpose for us (that is only reveled to the occasional abducted prophets), and they have given us all the technological advances since WWII. This is a new-age religion that had nothing to do with science education.
People like this nutcase must be debunked for the damage they do to serious astronomy. By allowing this kind of infestation to manifest just because you know how ridiculous it is you end up giving credibility simply by way of not having debunked it. Much as eco-terrorists like ELF and ALF damage the environmental cause, people like this guy (not saying he's a terrorist) damage the credibility of things like SETI.
Think how many people now believe in crap like Roswell and little green men. Now think how people like this make it hard for the public to take this science seriously. The idiot wants pr, but by not giving him the smackdown he so desperately needs, they'll get unearned credibility instead. The lack of pr will of course just be proof of a conspiracy against them.
Just think, to believe this guy you'd have to accept that we've spent hundreds of millions of dollars just on this one one mission to look for signs of life and that we would then turn around and ignore it when we found it. Too bad they don't teach logic in schools anymore.
doesn't the face on Mars look like J'onn J'onzz (the Martian Manhunter)? I may not believe in psuedoscience, but I believe in comics!
"This sort of thing simply exemplifies the sad state of science education in the general public."
Not just science ed, but the basic skill of critical thinking. I can't speak for how things are going in the rest of the world, but here in the US it's gotten particularly sad. People as a whole just don't seem able or willing to be bothered by thinking for themselves.
Seems to me that many moons ago, even those who lacked formal higher education could be counted on to have "horse sense" - the simple ability to call "Shenanigans" when faced with something fishy, and run the snake oil salesman out of town.
These days it seems everyone's simply lining up for snake oil subscriptions. What's up? Too much "Reality" TV? Sure folks have always been duped, but damn it seems like a national pastime these days.
...Hoagland IS very interesting to listen to. I'll give him that much. I don't believe most of what he says, but you know what they say, even a blind dog will find a bone every once in a while.
It is entertaining listening to him go on Coast to Coast AM, though.
In Soviet Russia, Chuck Norris will still kick your ass.
If I'm driving around at night, I try to listen. Actually, they're not all crazy. Once I heard the physicist Micio Kaku on there, and that was a pretty cool interview.
Komi
The ultimate goal of science is to unify all forces of nature to a single law that can be silk-screened onto a T-shirt.
Why waste your time debunking an obvious crackpot?
I'd be willing to bet there IS life on Mars... bacterial at best, but I bet it's there.
"You have polluted your air, poisoned your seas, and turned your landmass into a nuclear waste dump." the statement read. "Leave us in peace, although, I am aware that you don't even know the meaning of the word peace. And stop calling us little green men."
Read the whole story
Indefinitely Detained US Citizen
...You see this Slashdot headline and the first thing you think of is a new Sid Meier game.
This sort of thing simply exemplifies the sad state of science education in the general public. People when presented with the most superficial of data will adopt as truth the most extreme or absurd of claims with no critical assessment.
I don't think it's a question of science education. Just look at how easy it was for this guy to pull the wool over the eyes of most of the solid state physics community. Science is full of dogma, unfounded beliefs, lack of proof, unstated assumptions, errors, etc. And science education usually does no more to address these problems than other academic disciplines.
Most people are gullible and don't think critically, whether they are scientists or not. The education system could help with that. But teaching critical thinking isn't tied to any particular subject: you can teach critical thinking in subjects like literature, history, philosophy, economics, or even physical education. All of those have assumptions that can be challenged and problems people can think through for themselves.
Science, if anything, is probably a bad subject to teach critical thinking because there is so much complexity to be mastered before you can even start thinking for yourself. Students can reasonably discuss different approaches to historical analysis without years of education because they can relate to it; students cannot meaningfully discuss the foundations of quantum mechanics or the meaning of general relativity or the possibility of the existence of life on other planets because that takes an enormous background of scientific knowledge and skills.
Giving this guy attention, in fact, lends credence to his claims.
...
I remember when I scored my first writing job. My uncle, who is a successful journalist, tried to give me some good advice.
He asked, "What's the first job of a reporter?"
"To tell the story as accurately as possible?"
"No," he said. "The first job of a reporter is to create controversy."
Controversy, he explained, sells the news, engages readers, sparks conversation, and leads to follow-ups. Oh, and it sells the news.
So if you throw this nincompoop on "Coast to Coast", with 10 million readers, and you give him a voice, even if you do take shots at him, does this really count as "debunking" given the massive exposure he received?
I think it only counts as idiocy. Come on. The guy points at pictures of geological features and calls them faces. In a Communist society he'd be locked up and his family would be shamed. In America he's used to boost advertising rates.
Not that that's a criticism, mind you. I think we're all guilty of nuttiness here and there, so thank God we can be used to boost advertising rates
Chr0m0Dr0m!C
I've heard Hoagland on radio, I think he eats his own dogfood. (i.e he believes what he's saying). He get's quite expressive when he talks about NASA coverups etc. He's a real tinfoil hat guy.
As an authority on this subject (I can do the Marvin voice as well as Mel Blanc) I'd like to point out that Bugs Bunny (whose voice I can't do) was the first to encounter Marvin, as Marvin planned to destroy the earth with his Illudium 236 Explosive Space Modulator. When did Daffy Duck encounter Marvin?
BTW, Earth may be round, but Mars is flat!
ACKTHPT: President for Life, Flat Mars Society
A feeling of having made the same mistake before: Deja Foobar
It doesn't really matter, the cooks will still believe what they want to believe. Bigfoot, Crop circles have all been debunked, and there are still plenty of people screaming coverup.
-gm
Even better is this.
It talks about some stuff that the RSA is doing toward their manned Mars mission. Kind of interesting. You've got to love the headline though: "Russians conquered Mars 30 years ago".
I thought Pravda wasn't a propaganda machine anymore. Guess I was only partly right, just the headlines are.
Blaze a trail to the New World
Who else has seen the candy bar commercial where the NASA geek enjoying his chocolate bar just misses seeing Martian vandals steal the hubcaps off the martian explorer robot car?
Don't follow the links on his page to see the high res pictures of the face, or your computer will turn to stone: Details: Intrusion: Invalid TCP Flags Intruder: www.msss.com(192.138.172.72) Risk Level: Medium Source IP address: www.msss.com(192.138.172.72) TCP Flags invalid: 0x00000695. Click on the address to trace the attacker You can get detailed information about this attack at Symantec Security Response
Richard Hoagland's claims about life on Mars remind me of the mob's claims about poor Connie Booth being a witch in this movie .
His self-aggrandizing con-artistry is (intentionally) mind-numbing and the way he draws ridiculous conclusions on the presense of non-existant artifacts from sketchy evidence is hideous and repulsive.
Remind you of anyone?
you'd love an intro polysci class.
yes and no; born-again evangelican christians (also known as religio-loonies) are apt to fervently disagree with something just on the basis that it was said by a "scientist". Eg, Scientist: "global warming could potentially have a negative effect on the world's ecosystem and agribusinesses." Christian nut: "...another liberal lie, god bless Texaco!"
People tend to trust and believe things said by persons they identify with. People on slashdot are probably more likely (as a group) to identify with "scientist"s than are say, people in a baptist church in dixieland. Just like people in that church would be more likely to agree with their minister that "the plight of coconut harvesters in equatorial guinea has got to STOP!" based on who said it than say, a crowd of random people on the street. (don't read too much into these example... as far as I know there are no coconuts in Eq Guinea).
It's just an information processing shortcut.
Oh come on, don't pretent you hold up every single assertion to a microscope. We all take this shortcut. Some of us just have better bs detectors. Also happenstance is everpresent (some people call this luck).
PS: I am not denying the existence of stupidity, or of stupid people. I also don't think I am shocking parent's author with blinding wisdom. Just sayin'.
"A witty saying proves nothing." ~Voltaire
"d'Oh!" ~Homer
...has been cancelled due to unknown forces trying to keep the truth hidden from the people.
There was an interesting article in Discover magazine several years ago about why humans always think they see faces in random patterns (such as the Martian surface, or the smoke rising out of the World Trade Center ruins).
Basically, our brain is hard-wired to quickly recognize human faces. This is for survival purposes, of course. But when you stare at these non-human shapes - such as the Martian rock - it is obvious these are NOT faces. The brows are wrong, the nose is fitting only for Michael Jackson, and the mouth is horribly formed.
I'm extremely disapointed in the reactions here. The space.com article was clearly a character assasination of Hoagland. RCH doesn't expect you do believe every rock on his website, but if you have an open mind then you can see that some of the stuff he points out is quite strange indeed. All that RCH advocates is that some of these things be investigated instead of being ignored, or covered up by NASA.
The picture of the fossil featured on RCH's site recently is one of the most incredible pictures I've ever seen. And guess what, NASA refuses to talk about it and they ground the damn thing into dust!!!.
Is that what we expect from our tax dollars? We send an $800 million mission to mars to see if there used to be water there? We KNOW that there is water up there NOW already!
The problem with these so-called 'debunkers' is that they don't look at things objectively with an open mind, they already have their mind made up before they start. They then use disinformation and character assassination.
If Plait is so righteous, why does he refuse to debate RCH on the facts? Who is the real scientist and who is persuing the truth. Wait and see.
Hoagland regularly appears on Coast to Coast AM, an overnight syndicated talk show with something like 12 million listeners.
They get the listeners to email NASA demanding ridiculous things. Another poster pointed out that they got a Mars probe to drop other important work to take more photos of the "face on mars."
When NASA did it, Hoagland went on the radio and accused NASA of faking the photos to hide the evidence. He's a classic delusional type, who sees any evidence that proves him wrong as proof that there's a conspiracy.
A lot of the problem is the radio show, which is irresponsible, in my view. During the whole Y2K scare, one of the hosts hyped the hell out of it, and sold people overpriced bunker food on the side.
I understand the appeal of the show, and I enjoy that sort of thing myself. The argument for it is that it's sort of like pro wrestling -- it's just a show, everyone knows it's just a show, and the few people who don't just make the whole thing that much more entertaining. I can buy all of that.
The problem comes when these guys start scaring people and exploiting them (with the bunker food), or when they create real problems for NASA. NASA has enough troubles now, they don't need this crap.
I'm *NOT* calling for any kind of government action, or any sort of censorship. I don't support what's happening to Howard Stern, and I wouldn't support anyone hassling Coast to Coast AM.
I do think it's appropriate for other people to wake up to how many listeners these guys have, and to try to keep them relavtively honest. These sorts of articles are a great start.
In a recent survey by the National Inquirer:
40% of readers believed the moon landings were faked.
60% of readers believed the moon landings encountered UFO's on the moon.
30% of readers believe both of the above.
The photos aren't real. According to some authorities in the know, the pictures were genrated using Pixar which is based on alein technology found at Roswell. But, if you look closely at the photos, you will see definite proof of the exitence of alien moonbases. This proves that aliens exist and inhabit the Moon and Mars.
Un-news
It is official; Netcraft confirms: Richard C. Hoagland is dying.
One more crippling bombshell hit the already beleaguered conspiracy theory community when IDC confirmed that Richard C. Hoagland's market share has dropped yet again, now down to less than a fraction of 1 percent of all conspiracy theorists. Coming on the heels of a recent Netcraft survey which plainly states that Richard C. Hoagland has lost more market share, this news serves to reinforce what we've known all along. Richard C. Hoagland is collapsing in complete disarray, as fittingly exemplified by failing dead last in the recent conspiracy theory comprehensive scientific test.
You don't need to be a Kreskin to predict Richard C. Hoagland's future. The hand writing is on the wall: Richard C. Hoagland faces a bleak future. In fact there won't be any future at all for Richard C. Hoagland because Richard C. Hoagland is dying. Things are looking very bad for Richard C. Hoagland. As many of us are already aware, Richard C. Hoagland continues to lose market share. Red ink flows like a river of blood.
Enterprise Mission is the most endangered of them all, having lost 93% of its core developers. The sudden and unpleasant departures of long time Enterprise Mission developers Art Bell and George Noory only serve to underscore the point more clearly. There can no longer be any doubt: Enterprise Mission is dying.
Let's keep to the facts and look at the numbers.
Enterprise Mission leader Richard C. Hoagland states that there are 7000 users of Enterprise Mission. How many listeners of Coast to Coast AM are there? Let's see. The number of Enterprise Mission versus Coast to Coast AM posts on Usenet is roughly in ratio of 5 to 1. Therefore there are about 7000/5 = 1400 Coast to Coast AM listeners. Coast to Coast AM posts on Usenet are about half of the volume of Coast to Coast AM posts. Therefore there are about 700 listeners of Coast to Coast AM. A recent article put Enterprise Mission at about 80 percent of the Richard C. Hoagland market. Therefore there are (7000+1400+700)*4 = 36400 Enterprise Mission users. This is consistent with the number of Enterprise Mission Usenet posts.
Due to the troubles of Walnut Creek, abysmal sales and so on, Enterprise Mission went out of business and was taken over by Coast to Coast AM who sell another troubled theory. Now Coast to Coast AM is also dead, its corpse turned over to yet another charnel house.
All major surveys show that Richard C. Hoagland has steadily declined in market share. Richard C. Hoagland is very sick and his long term survival prospects are very dim. If Richard C. Hoagland is to survive at all it will be among conspiracy theory dilettante dbblers. Richard C. Hoagland continues to decay. Nothing short of a miracle could save it at this point in time. For all practical purposes, Richard C. Hoagland is dead.
Fact: Richard C. Hoagland is dying
I, for one, welcome our new Antichrist overlord.
Religions are crackpot, yet there's more than a minor share of the population who take the fairytales & imaginary friends seriously.
Superstition and ignorance go hand in hand and is quite common. This guy just has a less popular one.
Hoagland is a con-artist who got lucky a long time ago and decided to parlay his scant credibility into an industry built on duping clueless dreamers out of their money. He's the Wade Cook of science.
Good heavens Miss Sakamoto - you're beautiful!
The problem is in execution. There always seem to be those people out there who think that if they talk louder, their ideas gain more credibility.
I've always just viewed it as a similar to Munchausen Syndrome, in that it's a person who just wants attention, but there methods of going about it vary.
But in all, he seems right up there as the type of thing that Penn and Teller would make fun of on their show, but there's no full listing of what's going to be in season 2.
Build it, and they will come^Hplain.
this morning, I discovered actual life growing on mars; it looks greenish and smells dull
r.
many people will be even *more* confused, since "Life On Mars" claims have already been "debunked".
No, specific Life on Mars claims have been debunked. Later claims may be made and backed up with real evidence.
Isaac Asimov once wrote:
quote:"For one thing Velikfovskianism, and indeed, any exoheretical view that becomes prominent enough to force itself on science, acts to puncture scientific complacency-and that is good. An exoheresy may cause scientists to bestir themselves for the purpose of reexamining the bases of their beliefs, even if only to gather firm and logical reasons for the rejection of the exoheresy-and that is good too. An exoheresy may cause scientific activity which, in a serendipitous fashion, may uncover something worthwhile that has nothing to do with the exoheresy-and that is very good, if it happens."
"I'm extremely disapointed in the reactions here. The space.com article was clearly a character assasination of Hoagland."
Nice to see you joining us on Slashdot, Mr. Hoagland. Now go away.
You should have heard the show last night. Two guys were on saying that 97% of population is going to die this year. We need to build underground bunkers, buy their books & videotapes etc.
Well they were on last month saying the same thing, and the purpose of last night's (this morning actually) show was that the fellow who has had these visions supposedly met with Sister Lucia, the Carmelite nun who is the last surviving witness to the Fatima miracles.
The fellow said he met with the nun for 5 minutes, but wouldn't tell us what she said because it was personal! George told him he would not allow him and his audience to be exploited in this manner and cut off both guests in the middle of the show! I think it showed a tremendous amount of integrity.
Guests on c2c do not get paid so in general they are allowed to plug their website or book but they cannot use it to scam people. The topics on the show are not presented as the only objective truth but rather many different viewpoints that a person can listen to, be entertained, and make up their own mind.
Sometimes I find art gets a little over his head with highly scientific or technological discussions, which is funny because hes a genius radio engineer. He hosts the show, runs the board, reads the commercials, takes the calls, all from his trailer in the middle of the Nevada desert and all by himself! How many of you could do that? He has never allowed himself to be influenced by the suits, and how many DJs distributed by ClearChannel can you say that about?
The show covers a wide range of topics. Many of the topics are not and will not be covered by any other major media. I think it is a valuable service and certainly entertaining. I think both George and Art though, make it abundantly clear that the rule of caveat emptor always applies.
That's what she said!
...why in earth would NASA want to cover up such a thing?
Nancy called, and she wants you to pick up some milk and bread on the way home.
The Tao that can be spoken is not the one eternal Tao
If you enjoy his web site and the service he provides to the public buy his book, Bad Astronomy.
The link to his book on Amazon can be found here
He covers a wide range of misconceptions, myths and outright falsehoods about astronomy and associated topics. My favorite topic he covers is the "Apollo Moon Landing Hoax". He gives the subject an excellent treatment.
Call me when Hoagland appears on Imus in the morning then I really will be concerned! ;-)
Let me say that I know he is wrong. I listen to him on Coast to Coast as entertainment, nothing more.
What I am asking is how would we, being the human race as a whole, react if this guy really had something? Every time I listen I can't help believe that he has one really good point. People would flip if there really was intelligent life other then on Earth.
How does the Slashdot community feel about this?
Great people don't need people to complete them, great people complete other people. -- Matthew Pawlikowski.
You either did not read Plait's site(he has in fact debated RCH on tv), or you're a troll(or a moron).
"Hoagland's claims irritate me because he is promoting uncritical thinking," Plait said. "He doesn't want you to think about what you're seeing. He's trying to bamboozle you into believing what he's saying."
/. trolls.......
lol, this sounds just like certain
CMDRTACO CHECK YOUR EMAIL!
Since the limitation of Unicode is up to 1 million characters, won't we run into problems with Unicode once all alien character sets are added to it? ;P
Un-news
I was ready to plunk down some bucks for the next version of Sid Meier's "Civilization on Mars".
Been several years since my favorite game, Civ 3 was a new release title.
I only came here to do two things; kick some ass, and drink some beer...looks like we're almost out of beer.
24th and a half century...get your parody right. :)
I shudder to think of all the uncultured kids these days who don't remember Erin Gray's jumpsuits.
Study everything, you'll find something you can use - Jason Bourne
Author of parent admits to not reading the Bad Astronomy website, where Hoagland's claims really were debunked.
"I'm so moist I'm sticking to the leather." -Kermit the Frog on The Late Late Show
There's goes my dreams of that Mars collectors spoon for my collection.
If they find solid H2O on Mars I wonder what we will find in Uranus?
Some people have NO SENSE OF HUMOR. Apparently the mods are pretty anal today. Pull that pole out of your ass and laugh dammit. ;P
Un-news
I really hate to respond to my own post, but several people have replied questioning how NASA could have any motive behind some covering something up.
I think that some of this is very naive thinking. It seems you live in a microcosm where you have absolute faith that science will always prevail, the truth is apparent, etc, etc.
You completely underestimate the power of Christian fundamentalists in this country (good ol' USA). I'm serious. These people have power and more importantly they have a lot of votes. The idea of life on other planets is severely offensive to them.
Read the "Brooking's Report". Read it again. This is a very important document and the last official word from our government on ETs. Remember before this the air force was publicly investigating UFOs. There are many 'revelations' that would cause widespread chaos and panicing. It's just a fact.
In turns of funding. Well guess what, NASA is getting paid, has gotten paid quite well the past 20 years for (imo) very little real exploration and science, and they will continue to get paid as long as they string us along.
Also RCH has been one of they most vocal persons advocating and organizing the saving of the Hubble Space Telescope. Personally I think it is a travesty they are going to let this instrument go to waste instead of upgrading it and continuing to service and use it. The telescope has given us more and more amazing data every year, and there are telescopes on earth that have been around a long time because you can upgrade telescopes and the equipment used to analyze the data.
Think about it, NASA wants to send a man to the moon and mars, but they are too chicken shit to send a shuttle up there to boost the HST? Nevermind that going to the HST is much safer than going to the ISS (for reasons I won't get into here), but surely it is safer than flying to mars and progress always requires a level of risk.
IMO, this alone should be evidence that NASA and the people in charge of it do not always have the public's best interest at heart. There are some fantastic scientists at NASA, no doubt about it. The problem is the world is not run by scientists, and for the most part NASA isn't either.
When the better images came back from the newer probes, I was like, "Oh well..." That's how science works. One "experiment" (the Viking images) suggested something unusual, so the experiment was repeated with greater care (better resolution), and showed the original conclusion was in error. End of story. Time to move on.
Do you ever read his site? I visit Hoagland's site regularly because it's entertaining, and when he was just looking for patterns in rocks, it was pretty harmless.
However, seeing artifacts in images and what he's doing these days are two different things. He's either off the deep end, or it's just a was to sell books and get paid for speaking appearances.
Hoagland has NASA timing launches based on astrology. He saw secret coded messages in the year display when the ball dropped on Times Square for the year 2000. He has end of the world scenarios involving (OK, all together now) the MASONS.
Fossil: I don't understand why people see a nefarious plot in the grinding of the "fossil". It isn't like they need to destroy the evidence. Hoagland or one of his followers aren't about to pop up to Mars and grab it. And, actually, grinding it down to look at the cross section is a good idea, and the "after" picutre shows no structure, or even anything to differentiate it from the rest of the rock.
Water: The probes were sent to find evidence that Mars had ABUNDANT water in the PAST, as in lakes and even seas. This has benn clearly stated from day one, so your complaint is deliberate obfuscation.
--- Ban humanity.
Hoagland gutlessly abandoned the CompuServe forum after a few criticisms, despite a biased forum "moderator" and an overwhelming number of supporters who compared him to Columbus and Galileo.
This screwball managed to pressure NASA to obtain a higher-resolution image of the "face" on a later Mars mission. It showed the feature was not very face-like unless was sunlit at a specific low angle.
Hoagland is another of the world's parasites. I'm very sorry to see him getting undeserved publicity again.
"A worthy cause has never been harmed by the truth" - Gandhi
"If Plait is so righteous, why does he refuse to debate RCH on the facts? Who is the real scientist and who is persuing the truth. Wait and see."
Plait HAS offered to debate RCH, it's just the RCH refuses to agree on a list of topics, so as to avoid Plait getting dragged into a Tinfoil Hat 'Fest of RCH screaming, "Prove that I'm NOT right!"
Of course there's no life on Mars. The swarms of vampires live in Mars, beneath the surface, shielded from the weak rays of the Sun by sedimentary layers of dried blood. When BushCo sends their Halliburton I probe in his second term, they'll have quite a surprise when their drills hit a nest of biters. Then all hell will break loose, with swarms of these unkillable monsters winging their way back to Earth, in return vessels stuffed with dirt from their Red base planet.
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=is that no one has really posted any links to the images inquestion in order to provide any sort of balance to this argument. There are more images available of a "city"-like formation a few miles from the city. There's been math done to calculate orientation of the objects in question in relation to each other. Investigate this. don't write it off. Those in control of the flow of information are just afraid of letting every one else know what they may not be ready to know.
And it has an unintended benefit, actually. Don't you realize that by getting so many people to argue these silly facts, the producers of the show have inadvertently, as a side effect, caused many people to believe in logic and the scientific method?
My favorite theme on the show, by the way, was Bottomless Holes.
God bless the chupacabras, the inventors of perpetual motion machines and engines that run on water. Give thanks to the guys that walk the streets dressed as Killer Bees. They make life a bit more interesting.
i've been a regular at plait's site for a number of years. recently, however, i find myself less inclined to go there because there's an increasing desire of plait and his followers to use personal attacks and public mockery as a vehicle for discussion and dissent. in essence, if you don't agree with the tribal elders, you will be stripped and forced to walk naked through the streets. hoagland, or hoagie, (or hoaxland), is entitled to his opinions, research, and his right to web space. hoagland does have credentials, and was around long before that punk plait and his pranksters, and was walking and talking in the halls of NASA, something plait has never achieved. it occurs to me that people who have been on the inside of NASA know NASA the best. plait is a NASA outsider. he doesn't have the same access that hoagland has and still has in some cases. hoagland rubbed arms with the sagans of the world. plait has to settle for self-titled "posters" at his site that dub themselves "Bad Grad" and other silly names claiming old-school titles as their heirarchy. in the end, hoagland is turning up the volume on these frequent personal attacks, and plait is attacking back. i love it, and we should let it proceed. after all, plait, and scientists in general are very often VERY wrong. why should the public at large hold hoagland to a different standard? please, save hoagie. he's a really nice guy, and plait is just a young punk trying to sell books and make a name. he makes me ill.
The 'fossil' does have a segmented look to it, making it resemble any of a variety of invertebrates. But note the peculiar concavity whose entrance the 'fossil' is wrapped around. If it is a fossil, there's no good explanation why it happens to be associated with that hole. But from a geological point of view, it's easy to explain. The concavity was originally a crystal of some water-soluble variety, probably a salt. Water dissolved the crystal, and some of the water bearing the dissolved salt chemically modified the rock immediately surrounding the hole, forming the 'fossil'.
"I'm so moist I'm sticking to the leather." -Kermit the Frog on The Late Late Show
2001 face
1998 face
pyramids
these are all linked to from nasa's site.
What's really disgusting is the way the media is cynically exploiting these beliefs. But I view that as just another symptom of the "1000 channels and nothing's on" syndrome. Which is a result of so much media being controlled by so few companies, so that real creativity or insight has no chance in the mass media. Crap is easy to produce and has a high profit margin, so that's what the media monopolies give us. That's of a lot more immediate importance that any silly arguments over the Mars Face.
You know, as soon as I see someone plugging those words, I get suspicious. There may very well be absolutely, positively no life on Mars. But considering how "reputable" people once thought the Earth was flat and revolving around the sun (and cut off the heads of all those who disagreed), I think I'll wait until there's a little more direct evidence one way or the other. Isn't that what the "scientific method" is all about? One "rosetta stone" uncovered by a Rover and everything Plait argues so fervently gets tossed in the toilet. A little less "absolutism" from the so-called scientific community, please...
Philip Plait in his article "Richard Hoagland's Nonsense" has done nothing to debunk the hypothesis that Face on Mars and other artifacts in Cydonia region on Mars that might be of artificial origin build by some ancient civilization. In fact, P.P. has its own website where he can say anything, but there's nothing there that is consistent with independent-minded research of scientific value. On the other hand people who investigated those structures on Mars are scientists who did careful studies in telemetry, fractal geometry, and digital imagery (by M.J. Carlotto).
a /asom/pressconf_nyc.asp
P. Plait says: "Leading the way with this nonsense is none other than Richard C. Hoagland. He is the guy who has been touting the idea that the "Face on Mars" is not just a big hill -- which is what it really is -- but is instead a giant statue surrounded by pyramids, a city, a fortress, etc." - this is obviously an assertion but no proof of anything by Plait about the opposing argument. He basically says he doesn't like the idea of artificial origin of Cydonia structures and that's where it ends. So, it is rather a laughable for someone with Phd degree to supposedly debunk something without really doing effort in some scientific corroboration. So, this is another of those FUD hysteria that surrounds this matter. Don't tell me that merely claiming something can't be is a proof of anything. P. Plait and other professional "debunkers" need to do better than that.
If you want to make up your own mind on in this subject, check this website: http://www.metaresearch.org/solar%20system/cydoni
IP was invented for the sake of lawsuits.
>There's an undercurrent of desperate fascism in your post.
There is an overcurrent of desperate strawmanism in mine
>You're essentially saying "the believers must be reprogrammed!.
Essentially I believe my critics must be """re-educated""".
>We can't allow them to think differently!
I will not allow them to criticise me. Not! Not!!
>People are gonna believe in what they want to believe.
I sure am.
>I accept the fact that you don't believe in aliens, despite the small-minded, self-centered, delusional logical leaps you must take to reach that conclusion.
Actually, I don't accept this "fact"
>Anyway, I urge you to keep an open mind.
Mine is simply pouring out.
-
HTH, HAND
No, the United States seems to be full of people who think the Bible contains common sense.
Strange but true!
Your .sig, Iraq: war to save the USA, points at an intriguing argument, but contains fallacies. For example,
"But the more dollars there are circulating outside the US, or invested by foreign owners in American assets, the more the rest of the world has had to provide the US with goods and services in exchange for these dollars. The dollars cost the US next to nothing to produce, so the fact that the world uses the currency in this way means that the US is importing vast quantities of goods and services virtually for free."
Of course the "dollars" cost nothing to produce (or we'd use something that did), but they are exchangable for American goods/services that do cost to produce, including the labor and profit. That argument ignores the fundamental principle of finance, that the symbol has negligible cost, but merely refers to the value of the product, which has real cost.
The US economy benefits from vast efficiencies with dollar-valued global oil (and other) markets. The Federal Reserve derives its global power from its control of that currency supply. The anti-inflation rhetoric, if not practice, of Greenspan's Fed is specifically driven by the simple truth that belies the Feasta fallacy. I agree that Iraq's move to trade in Euros was a threat to BushCo, which survives Saddam in the sleazy Europe/OPEC waltz that clouded the moral clarity of European opposition to the Iraq Jr War. But the other, more solid economics of Feasta's argument are diluted by their misinterpretation of the capital cost of currency.
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This was proven almost 3 years ago. And the terrain on Mars isn't exactly flat, either.
...what spam is to email.
Did you check what NASA did to "prove" their point? Those pictures where manipulated with the high altitude filer to give the appearance that the Face is just a natural object. Earlier photographs showed something entirely different.
a /proof_files/proof.asp
Check another proof on this matter at: http://www.metaresearch.org/solar%20system/cydoni
IP was invented for the sake of lawsuits.
Dude, the "glass worm" explains everything. Now we know where all that water that used to be on Mars went: little makers keeping it deep inside the planet. And, we know why Mars is red: all that spice. All praise Shai'Hulud! Death to the non-believers!
Now I feel all pseudo-sciencey.
hoagwash then?
"The thing is, on some of the things (Crystal Worm, face) we simply won't know for sure until there are actual close-up examinations done. Period."
And so, what then? Spend half a billion for a dedicated Crystal Worm mission? When ANY result that doesn't confirm the existence of a magical hugiferous Crystal Worm is only more fodder for nuts screaming "COVER UP! CONSPIRACY!"?
No thanks, they can wait their turn to board the 'B' Ark like all the others of their ilk.
Occam's Razor is the nemesis of the nutball.
without naming names, good on you all for being so calm in discussing... this is what makes slashdot so cool. Although I think some people misread my meaning (if not my attitudes about right wing christians), you showed fortitude of character and maturity by not using the F word on every line. I'm probably the only person who is still replying to this thread, heh.
Oh yeah, the line "Oh come on, don't pretent".. was meant as a buddy-buddy to the reader, I didn't mean to imply that the poster to who I replied was pretending anything. I realized it sounded that way while replying to other replies.
I wonder if the God Mobile (there is such a thing where I live) is going to be at my place when I get off work carrying bats? ;-) heh prolly not.
"A witty saying proves nothing." ~Voltaire
"d'Oh!" ~Homer
Okay, I was more or less agreeing with you until this point. In my experience, I've found that evidence doesn't seem to faze them. And for those that are converts, experience and evidence prior to their conversion seems to be forgotten or ignored as well.
Remember, the majority of religious belief is based on faith. Faith, by definition, is "Belief that does not rest on logical proof or material evidence." (second definition American Heritage Dictionary) Evidence has nothing to do with it; they want to believe it, so they do.
Be glad life is unfair, otherwise we'd deserve all this.
From many years of debating with our friends in the tin foil hats, I think skepticism is similar. Admittedly all of us believe in silly ideas from time to time, but there are some people who appear absolutely driven to believe every fruitcake conjecture that comes down the turnpike, and no amount of facts or reasoning will change their minds.
Given this, the purpose of debating with such people is not to influence them, but to influence the audience listening in.
From some dude name Hoagland....... Said the mother ship was gonna come pick me up and take 'home' WTF you mean I got ripped off??
So Long and Thanks for all the Fish.
just wait till you're old enough to learn the truth about that WMD thing.
Claiming NASA manipulated the pictures is just plain childish and irresponsible.
Period.
"A worthy cause has never been harmed by the truth" - Gandhi
The bottom line is: did you research available information? The common-sense idea of Warren Buffett, or though he is a wise man in financial matters, can't be applied here to a completely different subject. But this is psychological issue. In order to appear balanced in judgment and with certain distance as if observing both sides of the matter, some people pretend they know better by the virtue of that said calculated distance, however, basically masking their own ignorance. If you want to prove anything you need to make some effort of providing the proof, merely saying something doesn't exist because it is far fetched doesn't cut it.
a /proof_files/proof.asp
Check this: http://www.metaresearch.org/solar%20system/cydoni
IP was invented for the sake of lawsuits.
Excellent site. If you poke around, you can find that there's a happy moose on Mars!
I sure many people have heard this story, but it bears repeating.
A reporter came to the home of Neils Bohr, and was shocked to find he had a horseshoe nailed above his entryway. He asked him how such a respected scientist could believe that such a thing would bring good luck.
Bohr replied, "I don't believe the superstition. But I am told it will bring me good luck whether I believe in it or not..."
I tend to think the same thing about people praying for me. Thank them for their consideration, and get on with your life.
What were you expecting?
Earlier photographs showed something entirely different.
Yeah, because the earlier photographs were taken at a much lower resolution. When viewed at a higher resolution, the "Face" is just a hill. Your link contains a lot of wishful thinking and not much else.
Yep, I know, Ford Prefect is not from Mars. Neither isn't Zaphod. But hey, this is not an evidence!
I am not denying the existence of stupidity, or of stupid people.
Thanks for the new sig!
"I am not denying the existence of stupidity, or of stupid people." - phyruxus
Take me home.
No intelligent life here. Just Bushes.
I can even do it myself. Observe!
I can even do it myself. Observe!
I haven't the time to blow listening to one man's suspicions and another man's mindless rantings, so here's my premature conclusion:
Richard may or may not be right and Phil wants attention and said "You're wrong and I know it!" Then of course the writer of this article decided "I want to believe Phil so he's right and that's that!"
It always goes like this and the 'disproven' person has no trouble shutting up the claims of the given offender. And so on and so forth.
I am NOT a number! I am a - oh wait, I'm number 761710. Look! 761710!
I was just watching some show on tv and they had one of the NASA scientists on the current mars project on it. He claimed that no one ever made the statement that life existed on Mars, they only made the statement that they found traces of water which indicates that life could have been possible. Just because the conditions where right for life to exist does not mean that life existed.
These debunkings are making me very angry. Very angry indeed. Now I will have to use my Illidium PEW-6 explosive space modulator.
>|<*:=
more interesting than that a recent analysis of actual snake oil (not that most of these salesmen were selling the real thing) is actualy quite full of vitamins and taking a teaspoon of the stuff really was good for you. However many of the snake oils theat were being sold had large percentages of opiates and alcohol in them to provide that instant good feeling and give the added bonus of addiction for the customer.
I used to have a cool sig, back when I cared
I didn't used to believe all that, but if those round little things ain't
KIX cereal, then I am a monkey's uncle.
Table-ized A.I.
Everyone knows all the Marsian water was used to produce Russian vodka. Russians found vodka on Mars, now that's more like it.
You can't handle the truth.
please please... more dumb people please...
;)
Why??
Because the more dumbasses there are, the more money I can make, the more jobs I can take with less competition.
The more people I can sell my 'goods' to at inflated prices.
Im sick of so many so called 'smart' people lieing their ways into jobs these days, I wish more people drank 12 beers a day and becames real stupid.
Liberty freedom are no1, not dicks in suits.
Interesting. You don't go to Bad AStronomy anymore because people resort to personal attacks... "that punk plait" "Self titled 'posters'... dub themselves 'Bad Grad' and other silly names..." "Plait is just a young punk" It seems pretty obvious that 1) you are a hypocrite and 2) you were never a regular at Phil's site or you would know that the posters there (Self titled? Is it odd to call someone whos posts on a forum a poster?) do not dub themselves anything. Hoagland is not a nice guy, and if anyone is trying to sell anything it is him, not Plait. Hoagland may have credentials, but they are not what he claims. Also, Phil has credentials, but I guess since he hasn't been around as long as Hoagland, his ideas and credentials don't matter, right? Nice try, but you need to work on your skills a bit.
an opinion anyway.
Go figure.
To hear the gods laugh tell them your plans.
404 not found.
The fact that I am kind of short, green and I look different than an average ./-er (but not much)
does not mean that I am not an intelligent form of
life !
We setup a small website to debunk all those debunkers!
www.we_are_intelligent_and_green.org.mars
I'm the damn guilty one. So are you! Yes you /.'ers. What are YOU doing to educate, instead of complain and blame? Enough groaning about why nobody understands the poor IT masses, or latest science theories. Get out there and educate. Don't blame the Parents/Teachers/Kids/TV/Food/Dieting/or men on mars.
Yes we can blame the US lifestyle, but you can move to Europe (and I have, so don't bitch to me). Yes you can blame TV, but you can unplug the damn thing. Just DO IT. Don't groan about it.
For that matter, what is to prevent in 200 years humans from looking back and calling this the "age of arrogance". I'm an post-grad educated scientest, and if there is ONE thing I'm convinced of is that WE DON'T HAVE A F-ING CLUE. You think we understand Genetics because we can draw a double helix? Good luck. You think we have a clue what causes the BASIC laws of physics? Good luck. You think we can explain emotion, or for that matter how to have a meaningful long-term relationship. Good luck. Yes we're learning, but don't get all bloated with arrogance. Arrogance makes it very difficult to "un-learn" a theory, and that makes it almost impossible to actually grow and learn.
So don't whine, act. And don't act like you know it all.
I don't think so. He is very carfull to not get between a rock and a hard place... at least recently. For instance the pictures that are supposed tobe anomylous shapes that are really just rocks. At first blush it looks like he is claiming he has found artifacts... even naming them for machine parts almost as if he is claiming them to be what he named them. But nowhere does he actually say that... so that later he can say... Those are just names... I don't actually believe that... all the while collecting hits on his site and selling crap.
It's like saying that NASA is infallible, or something, right? But the truth is that they manipulate data to fit their agenda. Now they are "discovering" water on Mars while several independent scientists were already postulating it more than 10yrs ago to be only dismissed by NASA, etc. The same is about the Face on Mars. Once they discovered water there they'll take a second look at Cydonia and lo and behold they'll discover that those were indeed artificial objects. They want to claim credit for "their" discoveries even though others were first, and so it goes.
IP was invented for the sake of lawsuits.
ahhh, one of plait's tribal council, you are, no doubt. i find it interesting that you would pick up on my obvious "pun" on personal attacks. hook line sinker. thanks! as for the posting, most of the people on that board type stuff just to see their post count go up, so they can then strut around as Bad Grads. i assume you read his board, so if you look closely, you'll see what i mean. you seem intelligent. and as for plait's credentials, he has a long way to go. his book did lousy, because it should have, and when the ads started on his site, well that explains it all, doesn't it? at least hoagland has the guts to ask for handouts. by the way, the ads on plait's site are targeted ads. you realize that, don't you? and hoagland's credentials are as claimed, it is greenberg and plait that are trying to muddy the waters. they covered up life on mars, and hoagland has them running for the political hatchet. as for you assessing my skills, you don't even know me. which is probably a good thing. cheers!
Plait has turned down handouts repeatedly. Your assertion that Plait and Greenberg have covered up life on Mars is patently ridiculous.
From what I recall of this Jesus dude, he paid closer attention to what people said than you do. The guy didn't say "Christians", he said "born-again evangelican christians (also known as religio-loonies)". That's still more bigoted than I care for personally, but it still doesn't represent a blanket condemnation of the Christian community. It simply stereotypes a certain portion of it as ignorant and intolerant. Probably not a fair stereotype, but one many evangelicals work rather hard at perpetuating.