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Apple Sued in France for iPod Music Royalties
alex_guy_CA writes "A musicians rights group in France is suing Apple Computer for back royalties due from iPod sales. It seems in France, all CDs, hard drives, and the like owe musicians money in case any of it is used for piracy. Only Apple isn't paying up." I want compensation from sales of Microsoft Windows just in case it is used for spreading viruses.
This does not bode well for Apple. As a Canadian I know we have the "Blank CD-R Tax", which is comparable to the French tax. There are at least 25 other countries that have similar taxes.
;)
If this French musicians rights group wins their case, this could set a precedent for other countries with comparable laws to sue as well.
As a musician, i feel embarrassed about this lawsuit.
On another note, cue the anti-french sentiment from a post-terror american centric peanut gallery... But at least this gives hope that the USA isn't the most litigious country in the world. Maybe you aren't #1 in everything after all.
Well, it's the law, fair or unfair Apple needs to pay up. Of course, when artists start getting payment from legal users that presume compensation for when the devices are used for piracy, they're more or less waiving their moral claim to any damages for piracy since they've already been paid for that.
"It seems in France, all CDs, hard drives, and the like owe musicians money in case any of it is used for piracy."
Does that mean that organizations like the RIAA are prohibited from suing music downloaders because the musicians have already been paid by the state (perhaps through some industry group), or is this just a tax?
... but it seems a pretty clear-cut infringement, given that the law exists. Perhaps Apple want to make a stand - can't see a USA company getting much sympathy in France though...
... sigh...
Oh if only the virus line were true
Simon.
Physicists get Hadrons!
Q: Can the editors at /. let even one story go by without taking a pot-shot at Microsoft?
I want compensation from sales of Microsoft Windows just in case it is used for spreading viruses.
A: Apparantly not.
You probably shouldn't click this.
at least you'd be safe anyway
There are some strange and restive laws out there. You should never just release a product and hope for the best. Especially something that makes money of off copywriten material. While you and I may disagree with the law, its still the law in france and Apple needed to have abided by it.
"Have you ever thought about just turning off the TV, sitting down with your kids, and hitting them?"
One thing's that a bit unclear to me is who actually owes this money. Is it really Apple's responsiblity as the maker of the devices, or shouldn't it be the store's since they're the one who set the actual selling price?
Afterall, if the tax is due based on the sale price, any discounts would lower that price.
What if we call it a Freedom iPod.... Will that help?
Yes, my girlfriend is a BitchX
They're only threatening to sue. It's the difference between french farmers being disgruntled and actually pouring manure on street intersections.
Politicus
Apple vs. France, France surrenders, Apple wins.
It's not like there are more then 20 to 30 downloads of french music anyway? Go ahead Apple give them their ten bucks and be done with it. :>
Stay tuned for new sig...
That will show them!
Seriously, Apple has made an effort to prevent piracy and that should be taken into consideration by Sacem.
Lasers Controlled Games!
If I pay the tax, how much music am I entitled to pirate?
...Sacem said that unless Apple settles its growing account, the agency that collects the payments "will have no other option than to go immediately to court to make sure that the rights of artists, composers and producers are respected.
Sacem is playing the "starving artist" card, but they did it poorly. They said they wanted artists' rights protected, but if they really meant this, they should go after actual copyright infringers. They really just want money, which doesn't have much to do with rights.
HIV Crosses Species Barrier... into Muppets
I want compensation from sales of Microsoft Windows just in case it is used for spreading viruses.
I know slashdot editors like to add their own comments to submitted stories, but this makes no sense. Are you saying that as a virus writer, you should be entitled to some of the profits that Microsoft is making off of viruses?
Even that sounds like a reach. Their system is like that used in other nations where there is a fee on media that goes to artists no matter if their work is illegally copied or not.
The question that the article does not answer is if all/any HDD manufacturers pay the fee already. Guess what? If the fee was already paid by the manufacturer then Appled paid the fee already when they bought the drives. Not saying that is the case, but it is something to think about. Also, if no HDD manufacturer pays this fee then the threat is just as stupid as it sounds on the surface.
Eve Fairbanks says I drive a hybrid!LOL
...encryption using >128bits was forbidden in France. Is this still the case?
BTW, shouldn't pirating music be legal there then? I buy a CD, I pay for music I -might- record to it, why shouldn't it be legal for me to record what I paid for?
Anagram("United States of America") == "Dine out, taste a Mac, fries"
I'd gladly pay a few extra cents per CD or a few extra dollars for a HD to keep RIAA off my ass.
*doorbell rings*
Hello there, I'm from RIAA handing you a subpoena for online piracy. *smiles & holds out subpoena*
*smiles*
Hello there, here's the court's ruling on my case. *smiles even wider & holds out receipt showing piracy tax for CDR's*
Don't let the door hit you in the *winces* never mind.
'nuff said?
Don't park drunk, accidents cause people.
The last time I checked that only applied to countries in which the medium was manufactured. It really stinks that such a fine peice of hardware is getting bad press of a trivial matter. IIANAL, but what is the legality of Apple having to pay for loyalties only applying to specific countries? Is this something that would be taken care of during the trade agreement?
Steal This Sig
an american company doing business in france must obey the french law. same goes to japanese companies. or german companies.
if the french law in question was specifically targeting american companies, your point stands, somewhat. but i presume it's not (WTO would have been all over it if it was), so your point is nothing but trollish.
A musicians rights group in France is suing Apple Computer for back royalties due from iPod sales.
:)
Yeah, but who would pirate French music?
/*drunk.. fix later*/
then you'd have to overlook the fact that slashdot is part of OSDN which is very heavily vested in linux...so the more potshots they take at microsoft and the more zealots they turn out, the more they are helping themselves.
because people who bike to work don't use any gas, I need a levy against bikes to recover my lost gas station profits...
If the rights group sues and wins, how much of the reward will go to the musicians themselves, and how much will go to the group, to fund more lawsuits?
I thought so.
Maybe they're upset because the French word for iPod is 'le iPod' and they want it changed to 'le computerfonografique' or something as equally stupid. You know how the French like to fight against their language being destroyed.
Which reminds me of that episode of Futurama, where the professors says he invented a translator for an incomprehensible dead language, says 'Hello' to it and hears, 'Bonjour.'
It seems pretty clear-cut: a levy of 20 euros times 20,000 French ipods = 400,000 euros, about US$500,000.
I'm not sure how they derive the 20 euros apiece. The levy is placed on the hard disk, but I don't know if it's based on capacity, or price (the iPod has a pricey hard disk inside which stores no more music than a cheap IDE, just more conveniently), or what. But la loi est la loi, as they say. It seems to me that Apple should probably just cough up a "measly" half-mill.
In Denmark we have levies too, but we're not paying for piracy, we're paying for "fair use". (Not that we have much fair use left - Denmark has one of the strictest copyright regimes internationally)
The distinction is important. I resent the thought of paying levies on CD-Rs used to make backups of albums i bought fair and square. OTOH, if I were allowed to swap and burn music all I wanted I'd happily pay up.
Of course the politicians aren't interested in this distinction at all - to them it's more a matter of stopping the artists from whining. Squeaky wheel gets the grease, that's how politics work.
Any sufficiently advanced libertarian utopia is indistinguishable from government.
I have some questions on this.
Is this action only for those sold in France or for all IPODs sold everywhere?
While I have my suspicions of what the answers are, the article did not address them. The questions lead to some other thoughts
Oh of course, cause you know how the RIAAs headquarters is in france, therefore it being a comspiracy to SCO.
France will surrender.
The SACEM is very much like the RIAA in France, so it is more accurately described as a "rights group" than as a "musicians rights group".
The tax mentioned exists, but wasn't created without an outcry from pretty much everybody in France, which of course didn't prevent the tax from being created. (Lobbies, lobbies everywhere.)
Like many people I highly doubt that any of the money collected this way goes into the pockets of "musicians". It definitely goes into some pockets, though.
I didn't know that the tax applied to hard disk drives, this was the point of hottest debate; I thought the government pulled back on that one.
So how can I moderate an article's headline as "-1 Flamebait" then ?
Never, ever lose a file again. Ever.
Apple has taken the steps to stop illegal music from being played in iPod, DRMed the thing and all.
Is that french law so broad that don't contemplates the possibility of a "copyright secure" digital medium? Or all digital medium is treated like a copyright threat?
Any frenchs out there to explain it better?
If Apple really wants to win they should recall all iPods still in stored in France and put out AD's denouncing the "musicians" rights group and the tax involved, when people can't get what they want is when you get their attention, lawsuits happen all the time but a product being pulled from your country gets things done... "we're sorry, we cannot sell our product to you because is suing us under because they feel they deserve money for every one of our product we sell just in case it is used to pirate music"
Snowden and Manning are heroes.
Beg your pardon there, kind sir, but have you actually set foot on French soil?
Mother is the best bet and don't let Satan draw you too fast.
This "french musicians rights group" is basically the french government.
It gets a cut from every sale, every aired music, even music you put in your store for your customer to listen. It then gives back to all the musicians who are members.
The pros:
-you get defended by a big player.
-small obscure musicians who did write still played music can have a nice retirement (a jazz musician told me that about his grand father) without paying lawyers and such to get their rights enforced.
-well organised.
The cons:
-you're practically obliged to be a member.
-all the money doesnt get in the musicians pockets (surprise! see above: it's the government).
-the bigger fishes still are more favorised than the smallest (but not like it would be if they were alone against the music corporations).
The yahoo issue was about internet not having borders.
...)
Here it's about an US product being sold in france. In that case you have to follow the local laws, which include declaring your product at importation, adding local taxes and respecting extra local rules.
Totally different.
Now, I'd be pretty happy if apple have balls to challenge that as it's IMHO a pretty lame law blindlessly applies to most (every) digital media (DVD-/+r/w CD HD
If they manage to pass over this in France, it would be a nice move to do the same in bigger countries (Canada ?)
Great, maybe /. can't but you have to admit that M$FT is a great target for this sort of thing. In reality MS Windows is the greatest vector ever for distributing viruses. Period. One can argue that it's because of its ubiquitous presence or because of its inherent insecurity or its user base which does not seem to understand that outlook is too dangerous for them to use. In any case if M$FT and its attending cheerleaders wish to see this /. practice stop then fix MS windows or encourage M$FT to fix it: each as your roll may allow.
That's a little trite. One has nothing to do with the other, but it is interesting how laws like this in other countries don't generate the kneejerk reaction they do in the US. The supposedly liberal France and Canada both have such a law. Where are all the open-minded, rights-protecting leaders of such countries when those laws were passed?
Point is every country has some stupid laws. And we Americans have been laughing at the French since looooooong before 9/11. That probably started sometime in 1939 or 1940 at the latest. ;)
I'm not a lawyer, but as I know is no such thing than "collective guilt". How can be motivated these strange taxes whithout accusing every man who buys an RW of piracy? What about taxing the kitchen knife? Remeber, you can kill with it!
Actually, I have no idea if they say la loi est la loi or not. My French n'est pas tres bien, or something like that. But if they don't say it, they should.
...it stands for ruthlessly opressing fair use and free speech.
And also the Recording Industry Association of America.
I am NaN
I believe the Yahoo case I mentioned proves otherwise. IANAL, but I have taken some law classes, and jurisdiction issues are far more complicated than your argument would imply. Its one thing to sue a someone in your own country and get a judgement against them. Its quite another thing to enforce it.
Sheesh. It's insular, arrogant attitudes like yours that make people want to blow your country up, and make fewer and fewer people want to stop it.
This is absolutely disgusting. What is the deal with some people?
"I want compensation from sales of Microsoft Windows just in case it is used for spreading viruses."
goddamn pole-smoker. the article has nothing to do with microsoft, yet you had to get your jibe in. fucker. the sheer fact that this even was allowed in indicates that slashdot is so anti-microsoft that you can no longer trust what is posted.
does the word 'offtopic' mean anything to you, dickhead?
Actually, Google reports that at least 674 people have actually said it. Goody for me.
I can use my iPod for music piracy... I can have my iPod in my pocket... Will there be an extra tax on jeans too?
Sig Nature
It has always seemed to me that in France the looters are winning. If you have ever read Atlas Shrugged by Any Rand you know what I am talking about.
"God fights on the side with the best artillery." - Napoleon, Marshal of France - speaking truth to power
Didn't the record company tell you that when you signed the contract?
(AP) Fierce nationalists across the USA today have petitioned Apple to rename the iPod to the independencePod. One supporter of this measure stated that, "just like sauerkraut was renamed to liberty cabbage during WWII and french fries to freedom fries during the liberation of Iraq, we hope this will inspire Americans to feel free to use their MP3 player will out the fear of foriegn oppression." "God bless the USA!", he added while firing an assault rifle into the air.
"And now you shall learn the secret of boot to the head"
I wish all taxes where that way. Like when you go to the gas station, there is a sticker on the pump that says how much the gas is, how much the fed excise tax, the state special tax, and the fact that they are going to charge sales tax on top of all that.
When people pay taxes, they ought to know it - not just have it rolled into the cost of business.
This issue is a bit more complicated than you think.
The article mentions that iPods sell for around 550 euros or around $677 USD. That seems *awfully* expensive for an MP3 player. Is this just an anomaly for the iPod, or are computer prices in general quite high in France?
France is a country who's economy is tanking, due in large part to the extreme socialistic tendencies it promotes. The rest of the world would do well to ignore any ideas they come up with.
...every time a frog croaks, someone ends up paying.
Ah so can we then use this same litmus to on any French person who wants to bash the US?or perphaps can we say it about the rest of the world too?
Extending their logic :
As a software developer shouldn't I get a cut of all devices that can be used to pirate software? This would, of course, include CDRs, floppy disks, CD-burners, hard-drives, USB memory sticks, modems, DSL lines, and computers.
Where's my damn money?
Brien
Because, you know, America NEVER tried to impose its laws on other countries, nope.
I don't know about the French music scene, but I'm gonna go download some Alizee videos and have some private time.
It doesn't mean much now, it's built for the future.
whats with all this jibba jabba.
Yes, I believe you can. It is called "ignorance". Thank you for your time.
Mother is the best bet and don't let Satan draw you too fast.
And then give every person one free song a day to boot.
However, the people signing contracts with Apple to carry thier music would probably balk and it would just hurt the library. Not sure what they can do about this.
"There is more worth loving than we have strength to love." - Brian Jay Stanley
And Jesus was a socialist, btw ;)
I hope Apple tells France to f**k off and simply stops selling the devices
in France. Maybe then the outraged French consumer would get to see the
SACEM dragged into the street, shot, burned and pissed on.
(Collecting "fees against piracy" from blank media is ridiculous, less
ethical than the piracy in the first place. I guess (as always) being
sanctioned by The State makes it ethical.)
The heat from below can burn your eyes out
seems like Apple have a habit of ignoring things, looks like its going to be an expensive year for Mr Job's unless they think that international laws do not apply to them (much like the current usa administration)
Maybe they're upset because the French word for iPod is 'le iPod' and they want it changed to 'le computerfonografique' or something as equally stupid. You know how the French like to fight against their language being destroyed.
You haven't been to France very much. You often hear "le weekend" instead of "fin-de-semaine", "le parking" instead of "stationnement", and "fax" instead of "telecopieur". The business card of a friend of mine (for a large company) says "Directeur du Marketing"
France often incorporate english words even though there are french equivalents.
So does this mean all the iMacs, PowerMacs, PowerBooks, etc sold in France are also supposed to be taxed and Apple is refusing to pay? Or are those somehow "different"? (or, perhaps, is Apple paying those royalties but not the iPod royalties?)
If you can cite an example where Microsoft has tried to make the world a better place...
Sure. Here you go.
Darth is right on... tht total amount owed by Apple will be less than a full course French meal at a 3 star restaurant as a consequence. French popular music hasn't changed much since the 60's. France "protects" it's national cultural heritage (incl. food, lingo, movies, etc.) thru petty legalistic maneuvers. But if you think French music is tepid, take a look at French TV sometime. There's a reason that BBC has all the shows on PBS and it's not the language barrier.
Just another case of France trying to impose its laws on an American company.
Except, of course, in this case Apple is actually selling Ipods in France, to French citizens, for Euros (mostly ones with the French logos on them), under the jurisdiction of the French commercial code. I don't think Apple or McDonalds are going to get away with claiming extraterritoriality for their stores, especially the French-owned ones. Conversely, I'm pretty sure Mandrake complies with US law relating to their US sales activities.They don't call them French Fries in France
Some mornings it's hardly worth chewing through the restraints to get out of bed.
The musicians want compensation because they wrote the songs. So I can only assume you want compensation because you wrote the viruses.
So tell me, just how outraged will you be the next time the media suspiciously points to the Linux community as the source of Windows worms and virii?
I do, that's the problem. I love the idea of a land of freedom, justice and equality. What really burns my gravy is seeing America call itself that, yet do the complete opposite. America is one of the most oppressive western countries. It has the loosest idea of justice (Guantanamo bay, anyone?) and equality you can find. THAT is my problem with America. If America was the America it is on paper and claims (so vehemently) it is, I'd be singing its praises from the highest building.
To be a bit more accurate than the news summary, in France, as in many other European countries, blank media has a long history of having an additional tax that is not aimed as at fighting piracy, but as a way to remunerate _fair use_. The money is passed on to the various artist unions that handle the distribution of royalties, and of course, Britney Spears and other American "artists" get a share of that.
I think it started with blank VHS tapes back in the 80s. More recently, CD-Rs and the likes, and even more recently, hard drives in general.
While it was questionable to tax hard drives in general, since many of them are not used to store media, it is hard to make a case for the iPod's hard drive to be exempt.
I personaly kind of like this system, which is by itself a better, more modern way of artist compensation than copyright is. Of course in France the two systems coexist, so you get the worse of both worlds.
I hope they use the old "Nobody pirates French music anyway" excuse, but barring that I'd like to see them just pull the product out of the French market.
Well, as dumb as we Americans, each for letting his gov't get away with 'preventative taxation', although we USAians managed to avoid it on standard CDr's, I think. AFAIK, we involuntarily concede an 'I might be a criminal' tax for DATs, Music-CDs, videocasettes, and audio casettes.
What bullshit.
- Activities of COPYSWEDE
(scroll down the page for information about the blank tape levies)
- Blank Tape Levy (PDF document with more detail)
Here's a quote summarizing it:
I personally find these levies very unfair as they're added to all recordable media and you're paying for the music and movie industry even when purchasing CD-R's to archive school work.
I also wonder how they decided what the fees should be. Wouldn't surprise me if they're much much higher (adds about 30% to the CD-R costs right now) than they should be, as people would probably not purchase two identical CD's very often if they were impossible to copy. Hence, in all these cases, they aren't losing money if these customers are copying today for convenience of playing a CD in the car stereo, etc. Usually, media companies and organizations like these totally ignore this important fact.
Beware: In C++, your friends can see your privates!
We American's have disliked the French for *years*.
I don't think it's quite fair to include all Americans in your statement. Not everyone is as ignorant as you are.
Does this mean I've got to send a check to the RIAA if I get a song from the radio stuck in my head? If I start humming it, does that constitute reproduction and distribution? I'm not very good at it, and it's all off key and I forget half the words; is this still a copyrighted work, or does it fall under as a derivative work, or since I'm pretty damn tone deaf, does it mean it's original? Dammit; I've got "A Horse with no name" stuck in my head. Get out the checkbook!
This is not a "piracy tax", this is a "right to copy" tax. In France, we can copy anything but software as long as the source is legit (comes directly from the rights owner) and the copy is kept for our own private use.
Your friend buys a DVD, CD, book ? Copy it and keep it for yourself - it's legal.
Rent a movie, copy it, bring it back and watch the copy as much as you want - legal.
Buy a CD, copy it, sell it - legal.
Go to your media-hungry friend who owns thousands of DVDs, CDs, books and copy them - legal.
This is really getting insane.. so much of our income is being lost on taxes and royalties that its no wonder the world economy is in the tank.
sure there should be a reasonable tax, and some credit given to 'producers' but we are way beyond what should be considered reasonable.
Problem is most people dont notice until tax time, or when they get hit with a law suit..
---- Booth was a patriot ----
"Hate french" ? This is just stupid if you know you history oldboy.
...
;-)
...
As much as stupid as Bush using the 9.11 in his campaign, don't you think.
I pay tribute here to all the people that died durring terrorist act thru the world.
FYI, Frace is still under terror since decades (since we had some terrorist attack that bomb the metro in the early 90s ! ever heard of it i suppose ? ). If you go to Paris, you will notice some army troops here and there because of that fact.
You "Hate French", but you do not know evey why ! You've just followed the mass-media manipulations brought to you by R.Murdoch's networks (no doubt Fox&Sky are #1 !).
History will judge wether Bush's "behaviours" and "relations" with the business world were legal or not
Meanwhile, i think the debate is over, people still die in Iraq, "axis of evil dictator" is in Jail, country is "liberated", good citizen can go to bed
I bet you the following : "Bin Laden" will be caught and jailled before president election !!! This will be the reason why G.W.Bush will be reelected president of the USA despite is bad homeland policy.
Why ? Just because IMHO this was designed by strategist since long time ago.
Never forget that money is everything and oil rule the world !
Let's hope i am wrong for the future of mankind
This is dumb. The French people are basically saying that you cannot sell your device to the french people without paying the french people because they might hurt other French People...
Tell me how any of that is Apple's problem???
Somebody needs to wake up here...
-=NullGNUtz=-
No, just kidding. Fuck the french.
If your head to the Canadian Apple Store you can see that it also affects the iPod. Quick link (URL may include session reference).
Jumpstart the tartan drive.
pfffffff,
archos, RIO and creative are paying this tax, why not apple ???
You american think you're beyond the others law, before you make such a post please make your government let your soldier paid when they accidentally killed someone in corea for example...
Or make your government comply to the international tribunal instead trying to make the little countries sign "law of immunity" for american citizen.....
You think you're always above the others law....
"I personaly kind of like this system"
Its dumb.
Who do you compensate?
More importantly, its simply corporate welfare because the bulk of this kind of tax is simply given to either (a) the record company (since they get the mechanical royalties (b) the big pop stars.
I can live with Vivendi and Brittany not getting a cut of iPods.
Please. Stop supporting corporate welfare.
I've always found this attitute about English words slipping into French galling. If it weren't for the English speaking peoples, they wouldn't _have_ a fucking language. They'd all be speaking German now, and speaking French likely a death penalty offence.
If my native language would be one of the most beautiful languages in the world, I too would wan't everything named in my language.
And when combining france with the voice of Barry White, I could get laid by just telling what hardware is in my comp.
Looks like Apple won't be debt free for long.
Unfortunately... And now, the slightly conservative government we have is being bashed by all the communist/socialist idiots. I am sometimes ashamed of being french, seeing all this...
That would be 'le ordinateurfonografique', you stupid english-centric americano-schovinistic globalo-maniac!
listen to Fench music? Do the French?
This guy is way out there
And that shows how the definition of "liberal" has been changing for some time now. I imagine, as you imply, that the authors' "guild" is a front for your recording industry. Another example of a liberal government in bed with big business. Don't get me wrong - the conservatives always are - but here on slashdot, we expect to get less sold out by "liberals." Unfortunately, it's not happening.
So there are also "Kneejerks" and "Open-minded, rights protecting" people out here, the problems is that the relationship with the Bush Adm. is way stronger than i would like to! (do you remeber Azores treaty?)
There is that, to be sure - and I'm sure the reasoning comes back to economics and trade, with the hope that Bush would look favorably on Spain.
I'm sure there is great debate in your country about such matters, but the Iraq bit aside, no one really criticizes any country *except* the US for rights erosion, or so it seems to me. As such, I don't believe that blank CD tax would ever have a chance here (though I wait anxiously for the Washington morons to prove me wrong).
If anything, I would say that many of the European governments are selling out their people just as much as the US gov, but the worldwide scrutiny on our government keeps things somewhat in check.
You haven't been to France very much. You often hear "le weekend" instead of "fin-de-semaine", "le parking" instead of "stationnement", and "fax" instead of "telecopieur". The business card of a friend of mine (for a large company) says "Directeur du Marketing"
France often incorporate english words even though there are french equivalents.
Actually, where this is noticeable most is in places in Quebec in North America. There is a heavy emphasis on using french for most words. (fin-de-semaine and stationnement.) But then again, Quebec has been fighting to maintain it's language and national identity for a very long time now.
~ kjrose
get a sense of it.
And I think you may have mis-typed, since only a closed minded bigot would use the phrase "pole-smoker" in a derogatory manner.
And no, I don't believe in your god.
And if your not a fucker, you're really missing out.
--
Posted AC to avoid bothering those browsing no-AC
insular, arrogant attitudes
You are talking about france, right?
Sounds like a good time for an equivalent to the Boston Tea Party.
Sure, the situations are a bit different, but it's still an unreasonable tax. I remember(atleast i think i remember this happening) a rise in stamp prices back in the 1980's here in the U.S. triggered some protesters to staple tea bags to mailed envelopes, as a reminder to the Boston Tea Party.
I wonder if this is Apple's way of protesting an idiotic law. Just let it go and if somebody really wants to take you to court over it, then you come in with 'fair use' and their attack-lawyers.
If nobody wants to bring it to court (on the grounds that it's stupid and might get shot down), Apple wins. If it goes to court and loses, Apple wins. I'm just wondering how an idiotic law pandering to a profiteering corporation can in any way survive the scrutiny of an intelligent judge.
Apple should countersue the French for EuroDisney as an entertainment destination!
Then grow a pair of couilles and take back your country. You're getting another chance. You blew it when you didn't stand up to the Nazis, now you're going to blow it again with your own god damned commuist bullshit.
No sympathy. Your ancestors sang La Marseillaise. They beheaded kings and queens. Live up to that spirit encore, citoyen!
Same things the person you are responding to said.
The question that the article does not answer is if all/any HDD manufacturers pay the fee already. Guess what? If the fee was already paid by the manufacturer then Appled paid the fee already when they bought the drives. Not saying that is the case, but it is something to think about. Also, if no HDD manufacturer pays this fee then the threat is just as stupid as it sounds on the surface.
The French musicians will surrender...
=)
E.
Build Your Own PVR/HTPC news, reviews, &
Do you have another example? Most of Europe cares about Nazi images; I can hardly believe that Germany wasn't watching to see the precedent set by that case...
At any rate, they are imposing laws on a company actively practicing business in France. Free trade works both ways, y'know...
This is not a war Apple vs French people !!
99% are against SACEM (like RIAA in US)
This is [Apple + French people] Vs [SACEM + French government] !!
And dont forget most musicians love Apple !
Screw that.
the major advances in civilization are processes which all but wreck the societies in which they occur - A.N. White
I don't even buy CDR's anymore...just wait and get them every other week 'free' with rebate.
I pay a little sales tax...and postage, for 100 pack spindles of CDr's...same thing for 100 packs of slim line cases...free w/rebate.
Heck...I'm just waiting for DVD-R's to come down to 'free'...
Light travels faster than sound. This is why some people appear bright until you hear them speak.........
...TOO SUBTLE!
lol, my first reaction was to reply something like, "Hey, Charly, nice to see you posting again. Say hi to Algernon for me."
I want to see how many irony-impaired responses you get.
1. "is threatening to sue" is what the article says.
2. "The proceeds go to musicians and other rights holders who lose money to piracy." Legally, this phrasing suggests that it goes to people who lose money in fact. If Apple is interested in contesting this, the lawmakers would have to prove such losses in order to prevail legally, or alternately have a strong enough case built that you could force Apple (or anyone) to settle outside of court. That would seem very hard to do, and it wouldn't surprise me if Apple were to bet on the precise wording.
3. Granted, most think Apple could drop a half a mil out of petty cash, but if I were them, I'd first argue that we'd pay the levy on the value of the hard disk. Beyond that, Apple could challenge this for proof of actual damages, and tie everyone up for a long time. Something tells me Apple has deeper pockets than Sacem, but who knows.
4. This seems a bit like a speeding tax on the sale of cars. Oh, right - mea culpa - that's called car insurance.
"Win treats sysadmins better than users. Mac treats users better than sysadmins. Linux treats everyone like sysadmins."
the iPod has no function that allows piracy...I can see why tehy are not paying up.
I am the Alpha and the Omega-3
Just kidding... nothing like a headline to get some public attention.
But all joking asside, there is some logic to the parallel I am attempting to draw.
If, because of the liklihood that someone will buy blank media and use it for purposes which result in copyright infringment, the artists and organizations 'harmed' should be repaid proportionally to the number or amount of potentially infringing media purchased.
That said, there is a fairly high liklihood that young black males will commit a felony before he is 25. If our conviction rate is any indicator (some 15% of all black males are inelligible to vote due to prior felony convictions) then potentially greater than 30% of all black males will be guilty of a violent crime before he is 25 years of age. If we apply the same logic, we should probably put all black males in prison from the age of 18 to about 21. This will protect the public from the violent crimes that they may potentially commit saving lives and property and will also serve as punishment in advance for anything they may do for which they are never caught.
Please understand that I am being completely ridiculous and I in no way believe the bullcrap I just wrote above. My attempt at writing this garbage is an attempt to draw a parallel at how ridiculous it is to penalize all consumers of recordable media. Just because it doesn't happen in the U.S. is not a reason the people of the U.S. shouldn't be concerned. (We should protect the rights of all if we expect our rights to remain intact.)
I'd like to see a world-wide abolishment of these proactive punitive measures.
We ought to demand a tax on blank canvas, paper, pens, ink, and paint since those can be use for reproducing copyrighted books and paintings.
Those f'in starving (and I'll guess crappy) musicians will have a harder time paying for their supplies than us computer geeks will paying for our blank media. Before long they'll be begging for the government to rescind all the blank media taxes.
--Rob
First, it isn't a tax, it's a levy, which makes it a prepaid fee for copying privileges.
Canadians who've paid this levy (and who hasn't?) have paid for the copyright provisions that allow anyone to make a copy of someone else's licensed/owned copy of a musical work, LEGALLY.
How it works is this: I buy a CD. I can then loan that CD to any friend, and they can make one copy for personal use. Ad infinitum. They cannot, however, pass that 2nd gen. copy or a copy of that copy on to anyone else.
What it means in the online world is that it is perfectly okay for a canadian to download one copy of an audio work for personal listening. It is NOT okay to then upload a copy of that copy (yes, that breaks the normal practice of P2P networks).
So, canadians, leech on, you paid for it. And loan your CD's around to one person at a time, please. Otherwise, work to squash the levy, and we can move to the US IP laws version (why not we're dropping sovereignty everywhere else, eh! OK I'm bitter).
Damn those pesky terrorists
In the UK, there was never such a levy on analogue media. However, I believe we introduced a levy to cope with the "perfect digital copy" in sound recordings. All this has done is made people use write-once CDRs instead of rewritable DATs as the CDR is not an audio-only format, so is exempt.
Bit of a waste, that.
Hal.
Got them moderator blues I blieve I walk out the do', With these mod-points I been gettin', I 'most never post no mo'
It doesn't even have to get stuck in your head. If you have a brain capable of getting a song stuck in it, you owe!
Just what they'd like, I'm sure...
what you just don't also know, is that Apple uses a 2 years old conversion rate between dollars en euros in France. As a result we pay Apple stuff MORE than 25% higher than the real price. it really SAVES much money to buy a G4 in USA, send it, and buy an azerty keyboard.
This is ripping us off.
If anyone hasn't read the article, Apple hasn't yet been sued at all. The group in question, Sacem, has threatened to sue Apple, but has not yet done so. To quote:
:)
In a statement, Sacem said that unless Apple settles its growing account, the agency that collects the payments "will have no other option than to go immediately to court to make sure that the rights of artists, composers and producers are respected."
People & businesses get threatened by suits much more often than someone actually taking legal action. I think I was threatened by a suit in traffic this morning. If this does make it to court then it might be a real story, but until then it's just a negotiation in a public forum (the media)
--Mid
Paper is used for more infringement than any other media. Each piece of blank paper could be taxed, with those taxes going to the rights-holders of published works which may be xeroxed, printed from the Web, hand copied, or otherwise imparted to the paper without permission or payment to the content creators.
If it makes sense for other blank media, it certainly makes sense for blank paper. As for the relative value, look at what we devote educational resources to: 'literacy' and 'numeracy' - activities largely on paper - are viewed as crucial, whereas there is no requirement at all to be able to write pop music to graduate high school. So we should have special taxes on blank media which might be used for pop songs, but none on blank media which might be used for depriving investigative journalists and great short-story writers of income? Are pop musicians more deserving of special income from special taxes than writers? Why?
"with their freedom lost all virtue lose" - Milton
This strikes me as a licensing fee. Similar to the one on Compact Cassettes in the US. This is a fee to compesate for the piracy. Therefore we have paid for the music we "pirate" so the RIAA can go get stuffed on their law suits, we already paid!
I'd like to see that defense used.
Trolls beget Trolls verily verily yay.
Blar.
Not to troll but doesn't this validate piracy? If we are already paying for the "possibility" of using a product to pirate music/movies/whatever, doesn't this grant fair use rights us? We should be allowed to make copies as we see fit. After all, we paid for it already.
Or am I reading this wrong?
Has Comcast disconnected your Internet account? Same here. You can read about it at http://comcastissue.blogspot.com
What baffles me is why france would *want* to protect its musicians - they're all shit.
Maybe thats why they needed this law, nobody in their right mind would pay for the music directly.
The fact is that over 25 countries have instituted such a levy in some form or other. We here in Canada have the "Blank Media Levy" on CDs, tapes, and "digital storage in portable digital music recorders" which includes hard drives built in at the time of manufacture as well as Flash and/or RAM. The people who administer this levy (Canadian Private Copying Consortium or CPCC) have intimated that they will go after other hard drives in the future (the next round starts some time this month for implementation beginning of 2005)
The point is that the US people who lobby for this have not been as aggressive so today you don't have the levy on anything but the cassettes AFAIK; but you certainly could.
To those who think they should get some sort of compensation for their copied software, the Canadian Copyright Act actually leaves it open to potential groups to apply for and get status to do exactly that but it seems that nobody but the music publishers seem to be able to get together and actually do it (thank our lucky stars!)
As one of the people who directly opposed the CPCC in their recent initial request to apply a levy of $21 per Gigabyte for the storage in things like the iPOD, I can tell you that you can make a difference if you try. The actual levy approved by the Copyright Board was from $2 to a maximum of $25 per unit depending on how much storage it has in it when manufactured - and no levy on additional storage modules purchased after the fact. This and a hold at previous levels for CDs and tapes was actually quite a victory. I expect the fight over levies on regular PC hard drives will be every bit as hard when it comes.
Let this be a lesson to you - and let's see if you can apply it regarding the DMCA and other repressive legislation that your wonderful government (and the business lobby that pays it) are foisting on the world (see what is happening in Austrailia for example)
Been there, done that, paid for the T-shirt
and didn't get it
"I've always found this attitute about English words slipping into French galling."
I'm assuming this pun was an accident?
You were mistaken. Which is odd, since memory shouldn't be a problem for you
"I want compensation from sales of Microsoft Windows just in case it is used for spreading viruses." Linux mail servers also spread viruses. You want to sue Linus too? Stupid dumbass.
You mean like the "War on Terrorism" is just another case of the US trying to impose its laws on non-American citizens?
Lars T.
To the guy who modded me down from perfect to terrible Karma - Apple haters still suck
Well, why stop there?
If Apple increases the price of all iPods by $5 to recoup losses to countries with laws like this, rather than increase cost there alone, I ought to know about that too.
I'd also like a breakdown of the cost-benefit ratio of maintaining military situations in the middle east vis-a-vis the price per gallon on the pump. It'd be much more significant than just the tax rate.
The Apple iPOD is NOT a hard disk, blank media, CD-R, etc. It is a consumer electronic device. Do they tax Xbox's because it has a hard disk inside ? What about digital cameras with CF cards that could hold MP3's ? What about my MRI machine in the hospital that has many terabytes of storage ? What about my exabyte tape backup jukebox ?
It is one thing to tax consumer recording media that is likely to be used to store pirated music, although I also strongly object to that notion (I used my CD-R's to store scientific data). It is another to tax any ol' electronic device that some *could* jimmie to use to store pirated music but in fact is designed for another purpose (in the case of the iPOD, to store music that is obtained through legitimate means).
Who the hell listens to French music anyway? The French?
Finally found the text (in french) Here
It does say that the hard-drives integrated into TV, VCR or video decoders and hard-drives integrated into mp3 players (like the iPod) are eligible to the tax.
The law does not apply to hard-drives sold for use in computers.
So this law is not that stupid, if you think that the general law that pay back artists for the right of users to make private copies is a good thing.
BTW, another law (here) says that floppy-disk (3'5 inches only) are eligible for this tax. And this law is probably a lot more stupid.
NB : The site http://www.legifrance.gouv.fr messes badly with cookies so the links above may not work at first.
If you have to pay for it .... ITS NOT FAIR USE.
You're talking about eliminating fair use. Fair use says "I have a copy of this thing, I can make another copy for my own use without asking permission or paying royalties from the copyright holder".
What you're talking about is replacing fair use with pre-negotiated royalty fees.
Thanks. Not interested.
>It is NOT okay to then upload a copy of that copy (yes, that breaks the normal practice of P2P networks).
:-)
Yup. That's why I use USENET for my MP3s. It's exactly what the Canadian government orders, and it doesn't install spyware on my PC.
I take exception to the "seems fair" label that Pudge tacked on. This is the last site I would have expected to support something like that... do you also believe that CD-Rs should cost more "in case" they are used for piracy? After all, we should be compensating Microsoft "in case" someone copies their software....
Just my 2 cents, take it or spit on it.
There's an important difference between France and other countries that have this "blank media" type of tax: basically these countries have statutory allows for "private use copying", meaning that it is legal to turn your CD into MP3's and play it in your car or walkman: in other countries (such as the UK), this is not the case, and therefore MP3 ripping is not legal. In allowing this "private use copying", the tradeoff is that some remmunation should go back to the artists, so to do this, a levy is placed upon blank media, and the average revenue from that media across the whole of society and the whole of the year is intended to be a rough justice for the loss to the artists of the private use of their work. This is not an ideal system, but then again it is not too offensive so long as the levy is not high.
French Military Rifles for sale.
Good Condition, only dropped once.
If you tax media items in case of music piracy and used that tax money to support local music groups that is fine. So I have to ask about software piracy.... Should the local software industry also get a share because the media could potentially be used to pirate software? What about publishers and writers - their protected work might be copied as well. How about a tax on anything that can be copied and on any potential medium? That would cover VHS tapes, paper, pens, computer media, & photocopiers, etc. That should generate lots of tax dollars for new pet projects for the opticians.
Fuck texas up its stupid fat hick ass
You've been told by the media, you gonna "free a country from a bloody dictator", which is of course true. Everybody know that they were rape and mass-murdering, etc. But ey man, this was a dictature, and those people were just crazy !!! Is it an excuses ? Not at all, should we look and do nothing ? Not at all.
;-)
...
The problem i have with Iraq war, is more a conceptual one (ok, i always ask reason to everything). You want to attack dictatures, but did you ever count the number of dictature country (or even only in the middle-east) ?
For instance, did you ever asked yourself why US did not attack North Korea first ? I mean if you put priority on your "clean the world todo-list", i think that a country that hold nuclear missiles, set up concentration camp and have swear to destroy the united states do "worth the trip" ? Am i wrong ?
Hold by a bloody dictator, this country force hist people to starvation (hundred thousands people died from starvation in the last decade because of NKorea dictature) or enrol the army (to defend the country agains the "alien evil"). Amnesty International clearly repport on the topic that things are turning like hell on earth for people there ! Do you think that G.W.Bush if he is president again, will go to war against NKorea ? Carefully think of the answer
As a conclusion, i will say i don't want another 9.11 to happen anywhere in the world to any country that's why we must be smarter than terrorist.
Rgs,
SLK
PS: What is sad, is that when somebody say "war is last solution only" then for some people in world he must be "pro dictature", isn't it a bit strange ? Every normal people is of course again a dictature, ey ! But if i still (personally think) that Iraq dictator could have been put out of his country without a war, does it means i am a friend of him ? I don't
Nevada-rlz
Should paper also be taxed? With my next paper purchase I might plan to make a copy of a page of a text book that *gasp* I dont own!! I think we should start taxing paper as well, because it could be used for copyright infringement.
Dude, he couldn't hear you as he was already riding his Harley off into the sunset.
I want compensation from sales of Microsoft Windows just in case it is used for spreading viruses.
And from Linux in case it is used for being an unusable piece of shit with no software.
Probably not when they abetted your rebellion in 1776, or when you took advantage of the whole of Europe being at war with Napoleon to invade Canada in 1812. Maybe when they gave you that big green statue in New York in c.1876, but even there was a lot of resistance, mostly due to the cost of the plinth. The dough boys were probably chuckling when they arrived in France in 1917, when there had been continuous fighting on French soil for three years.
I hate the French as much as anyone, but it's because of reasons like their lowest-in-Europe per-capita soap consumption. When it comes to fighting, you Americans still owe the French.
--
E_NOSIG
You guess wrong. Actually, my grandfather was in France fighting to liberate them. He was in the battle of the bulge. He had terrible nightmares and would wake up screaming - but he wouldn't talk about what happened there.
Yes, this is why France is annoying. You save their ass and De Gaulle gives you shit for your trouble.
So I still laugh at them, as they've never done a thing to atone for their cowardice that cost hundreds of thousands of American lives - plus innumerable British, Soviet, and Eastern European that I don't have numbers for.
Read Atlus shrugged by Ayn Rand. You might find it interesting.
"Inattention makes clowns of us all" -Bean
Nah, it all started at Waterloo. They haven't won a war since the early 1800's under Napoleon. And they started getting their asses handed to them by the Germans in the Franco-Prussian war in the mid-late 1800's. Basically, as soon as Germany united their fractious territory, they started kicking French ass.
The French would run away fromm a group of German pre-schoolers.
Comment removed based on user account deletion
The reason Microsoft's OS is hit more than any other is more because Microsoft has a much larger share...
But that's their fault, too. They set out to become the greatest market-share, and used all kinds of underhanded and outright illegal tactics to do so, and still employ them so they can stay on top. They got themselves into this. Maybe they should start accepting the consequences of that a little more. Or maybe, as a good monopoly should, they could start encouraging their competition. And yes, they should encourage their competition, because they're no longer bound by the same rules as normal companies: they are a monopoly.
Honestly, I believe that the best way for Microsoft to decrease the number of Windows-only worms/viruses/trojans/etc is to see to it that other products grow in market share until Windows has no more than a simple majority (ie, around 50% marketshare). I think that with a diverse market like that, the whole world would a) be less vulnerable, b) have more competition, thus better products/lower prices (in theory, anyway), and c) be more interoperable.
Dan Aris
Fun. Free. Online. RPG. BattleMaster.
The first major embarisment of the French in the American period was during the Franco-Prussian War.Germany for the first time in history united together and abosolutaly crushed the French, even taking captive their king. This proved the might of the newly created German state, and showed that without another Napoleon the French would never again be a top tier military power in the world. It was almost as embarasing as the Japan-Russian War for the Russians or the Italo-Ethiopian War for the Italians.
Open Source Sushi
Woah woah, stop the mother fucking presses. Didnt half the music industry make its self on the fact that 'musicians' or 'artists' as they like to be known, could make a recording once, and sell it damn near as many times as they wanted without having to lift a finger? Half of these pricks billion dollar livelyhood is based on that fact but yet they treat it as if they somehow own all recording devices?! Without things similar to the workings of an iPod YOU WOULDNT HAVE HALF OF YOUR MONEY.
Now for an off topic rant:
I hate footballers, they are a bunch of over paid pricks. But atleast a footballer does a job every week! they dont sit in their hotel and say "hey look, i played a game last week, why dont you just sell the recording of that a few million times and give me some more money? WHAT people are swaping video tapes of the recording of me playing? im going to sue them all!!" and this is one thing you'll certainly never hear a footballer say "Look, i cant be bothered to play today, how about i just turn up and stand there while a video screen plays back some of my goals?"
Ok so some musicians do make an effort, but there are too many that think they are high and mighty and just because they can string together some chords (not original chords or melodies mind you) and some lyrics mostly ending in "baby" and sing into a box that fixes their tuning that they somehow deserve to be treated like kings and queens.
This comment does not represent the views or opinions of the user.
Wine swilling, ego-manical, girly-man little frogs...
Oh and those are thier good points...
So Long and Thanks for all the Fish.
... or do people who do not speak English natively put emoticons in really bizarre places? Do they do the same thing in their native language?
+++ATH0
Funny ;^)
If they want to sell in France, they should pay. If not, they're not honouring the local system worked out among and for composers and musicians.
Maybe not everybody is aware of this, but France has a huge and constant outpouring of culture. Books, music, movies are just the most publicly accessible.
Apple shouldn't try to change local laws, but work with them.
I'm a total mac-head, been on cool-aid since '83 but Apple shouldn't fuck with French composers.
I think, therefore I am...I think.
See "Rebuilding America's Defenses", a policy document crafted in 2000 by Bush/Cheney/Rumsfeld's think tank.
Most PNAC members are in charge of the country right now, note.
The real threat was not Iraq. It is not Iran or North Korea. The threat is China. The US does not want another hostile rival superpower to emerge, especially not with the aid of "rogue states" like those specifically in the "axis of evil," which pose a threat not just because of their weapons, but mainly because of their geographical location and hostility to U.S. presence.
By maintaining European alliances, establishing an SE Asian front, getting Korea into shape and maintaining a permanent presence in the Gulf region, the US can contain China. That is mainly what the Iraq war was about. It's all in the document.
Their nasal sounds make me sick!. If only they had a normal language without crazy rrrrrr! and so on.
Unlike French most European languages are normal. Italian, Spanish, German, Dutch, are normal, beautiful languages; people can speak these languages without having to use their noses!
Isn't this kind of tax paid for by the consumer?
.smell my feet.
and if you think that there aren't any "screwy" local laws/ordinances in other countries then I have a bridge in San Fransisco that I'll sell ya for cheap. If you really want to see some crazy laws you should look at some of the Muslim or Asian countries. Sure in Oklahoma it's illegal to get a fish drunk, but I'd say that's pretty inconsequential compared to villages in countries where the punishment for talking to someone outside of your class is for your sister to be gang raped.
In france you can't even wear a headscarf to school.
At least the US has a consitution that for the most part protects individual freedoms and seperation of church and state. Some western countries don't even have constitutions (NZ comes to mind...)
Don't be stupid. You say:
" I have to say it's hard to argue against a levy for blank cassette tapes."
No, its an EASY argument to make.
I own a CD (or LP), I want to make a copy for my cassette deck in my car. FAIR USE says that I can do that.
Do you understand fair use does NOT mean "You can copy, but must pay a fee to the copyright holder".
FAIR USE means, I can copy without permission or fees.
In fact, I'd argue that you can't make a legitimate argument to support paying fees on blank media.
Personally, I prefer the organization's lesser known name: the "Society of Composers And Musicians" or SCAM.
But on a more serious note, couldn't Apple argue that the main usage of the iPod is for their proprietary music format which you can only get by paying iTunes? While you could mount the device as a hdd and transfer over basically anything the French should have some concept of overwhelming non-infringing usage like the Sony Beta-Max case.
Besides, if Apple decided to fight, the French would probably back down and show them the way to Paris anyway.
... where the state provides free music and media for a small tax on the sale of the storage media required to store it.
That is how I interpret these laws. In any other way they are clearly unfair laws against the consumer, and indicate that the consumer is guilty of a crime (copyright breach) without a trial, which is clearly illegal under most, if not all, western governments.
I'm glad you said it before me :)
Leave it to the French to use such an obsolete word for computer...
It'd be like calling a PC an "abacus".
In France, this tax applies on "storage devices", meaning hard drives, writable CDs, writable DVDs.
The product of this tax is partially, let me repeat : partially given to the SACEM, which is some kind of French RIAA. The main part is still collected by the French Government, as any other tax.
And WTF is the link with that story and microsft ?! =)
Please do not confuse the will of the American people and the misguided attempts at security of our village idiot, ahem, I mean President. Come November we hope to correct that mistake.
100 million blank CD's were sold in Canada last year, only 1/2 of which went to music piracy. Where did the other 1/2 go?
Digital video game piracy is rampant due to the wide availability of blank CD-Rs. Yet game designers never see a dollar from this obviously illegal trade. Look at how the existing levy in Canada has supported musicians and technicians, allowing the music scene to grow untethered from the chains of traditional economics. It's a veritable renaissance of human expression, all supported by the taxes collected on their behalf by the CPCC.
Yet us game designers don't see a penny of the money CD-R companies have made their living from. By my estimates, if the CPCC has collected 28 million dollars for music piracy, they should have collected 100 million for digital videogame piracy. That's enough for 5 high-profile Square-quality launches per year, or 200 art-house releases... enough to support a console of their own. Canada's publically supported movie industry has given us The Cube... Isn't it time for The VideoGame Cube?
As a game designer, I feel underpaid by this lawsuit.
(note, the above is an example of oh-so-trendy serious sarcasm. By having read this comment you agree to not make any laws based upon it.)
The ______ Agenda
The only explanation.
I'm packing up my Fisher Price keyboard and moving to France! Keep an eye out for my upcoming album, I'm Milking The Society of Music Creators, Composers and Publishers For Lost Profits!.
that should shut them up.
Just remember that 2/3 of common English vocabulary comes from 11th and 12th centry French. We just borrowed words from them 900 years ago and are now giving them back.
Of course this is modded as "Insightful". Come on folks. You can come up with examples of "oppression" by ANY country.
/. readers seem to have this extreme left fantasy view of what they want government to be. (I would love to see LESS of it, which neither major party seems interested in) But that's a whole other argument.
The US has problems, sure. Get OVER it. It is also a GREAT country. Anywhere you have millions of people living together, you have problems. That's why we have government. Most
And on the Guantanamo subject, lay off. Those people won't be there forever. They are in better condition now than they were in Afghanistan. They are not being abused, just isolated (yes I realize that can be viewed as a form of abuse). Whatever value they might have as sources of information will be gone soon (if not already), and they'll send them home. You DO remember why they're there, right? Taliban? Extreme fundamentalist terrorism? Abuse of women? Al Quaeda?
I love French wine, like I the French language. I have sampled every language, French is my favorite. Fantastic language. Especially to curse with. Nom de dieu de putain de bordel de merde de saloperie de connard d'encule de ta mere. It's like wiping your arse with silk. I love it.
It's "no one," not "noone." Who the hell is noone anyway?
...don't get royalties on copies made, you insensitive clod!
CAn'T CompreHend SARcaSm?
Hi, As a french, I'm shocked by the fact that every single time the word "french" is pronounced, people start insulting. It's easy to go this way, too easy even, and nobody, I mean nobody, should believe his country is better than the others. But I can go this way too :) If the french people and the france are so bad, why is it that we never see *french* flags being burnt all over the world, but *us* ? I guess it's easy to hate too when you are the most hatred people in the world.
So maybe it's better to center the debate on the real issue, and not geopolitical analysers wanabees.
Does not the mountain need the stream?
Does not fire need water?
Does not your scrotum need kicking?
Then why isn't the US invading North Korea? There is much evidence of the same kind of Human Rights violations and atrocities that existed in Iraq. Well, the answer is that North Korea is not the World's Second Largest Producer of Oil...
Kim Jong Il is simply not as accessable as Saddam. A surgical operation of the kind that was applied to Iraq could not work in Korea. War with North Korea would mean bloody mayhem for everyone involved, and a huge refugee problem on the Korean peninsula. The US wrecked Saddam's regime because it was vulnerable. He was a bad guy who deserved to come to a bad end. The vast majority of Iraqis would agree. As for the oil, the US will get it like everyone else: at market prices. That is more than I can say for the currupt French and Russian officials who profited from the oil for food shame.
an ill wind that blows no good
The only western country to screw up democracy, now screws with capitalism. surprise, surprise, surprise.
lose != loose
That reminds me of a nice quote from A Prairie Home Companion on NPR a while back.
TR (JESSE): This is just the lowest of the low. These French. I've had it. I just want to say that if it weren't for us, these people would be speaking German today.
TR (ARNOLD): You say that like it's a bad thing.
SS: Mr. Chirac?
TR (CHIRAC): I remind them of the American Revolution. If it were not for the French, the Americans would be speaking English today.
TR (ARNOLD): Good point.
Read the EFF's Fair Use FAQ
The British government forces me to pay a levy on blank music CDs; so why aren't I allowed to copy whatever I want on to it? They can't have it both ways, either I pay the levy and copy any music legally, or they don't charge the levy and prosecute copying.
It's a good thing that computers can write music to data CD's with no levy to pay.
A latent existence
In the order hand, when you see how many french words are commonly used in english, you wouldn't think we'd have to fight for the survival of our language :) Oh, and next time you watch a transmission from the ONU, check all the signs that are written both in french and english :)
My point here is to prove that b0r0din is wrong :)
And on the Guantanamo subject, lay off. Those people won't be there forever
iam sure hitler said the same about their concentration camps, what should worry you is why the US goverment chose Guantanmo bay and not US Soil
good luck next time some other country tortures your people, world still a safer place yeah ?
Oh wait....
THAT we're not allowed saying, right?
I forgot the P.C. function on my PC.
As you were...
The parent is from Canada. Perhaps Canada should be propelled to #1 in making excuses why the US isn't so stupid after all?
Either way, this case is rediculous. Unless the French are going to sue every single external hard disk manufacturer, they have no case. iPods won't upload their music library to another computer after syncing, and even though they can be used as FireWire disks to hold straight-up files, how many people actually know/do that? Why is the iPod then singled out for that function as opposed to all the other hard disks you can buy?
Now for the things I do not know in making this argument:
Is there already a tax on external hard disks in France?
CAn'T CompreHend SARcaSm?
So who is this "they," who has the "freedom," and what are "they" "free" to do?
Seems to me a society that doesn't allow individual freedom sure as shit isn't free.
Ever wondered why the owner of telephone account has to pay the tax for 911? His phone will most likely be used to help someone else.
State sales tax is supposed to be for state residents. Why then I can't get tax break in New York if I show New Jersey drivers licence?
Blank CD has a value of say, $0.10 After recording its value increases at least 10x
I'm fine with renaming tax a levy and paying it for blank media as long as none of it goes to Britney.
No, humming the song is public performance, and means you own money to ASCAP and/or BMI and/or one of the other composer's mafia organizations, not the RIAA. Having the song stuck in your head does not currently subject you to liability (but just wait 'till next year)
Because in my opinion, at least in France, these taxes have been controversial, especially among computer users in who use CDs for backing up their data. Also the tax was proposed at some point to be extended to hard drives and there was of course much debate against that.
Yes, that's not the point. I'm talking about international response. Rights restricting laws in Washington are pasted on international newspapers around the globe. The same is not true for other, supposedly more "liberal" countries (for example, France or Canada). I'm not sure whether it's because these countries fail to interest the international community, or whether they get a free pass because they're supposedly more liberal and enlightened.
I want compensation from France in case they surrender to someone and we have to bail them out. Again. How about repaying us for WWII before coming to us for money?
I realize this is /. , but is it really necessary to add a slam at MS with every other story? This has nothing to do with the subject at hand and just makes /.ers look like a bunch of mindless drones.
But you forget that everyone wants something free. If a lawyer comes to the orgainzation and says, hey, I can get a class action lawsuit (or levy or whatever), people say "yes" instead of saying "well, I don't really need/want/deserve this free stuff, so go stuff yourself, you shyster."
If we did more of this, we'd all be better off - after all, the best way to stop a class action suit is getting a majority of those eligible to opt out of the suit. I do it with every class action notice I get.
The best way to stop tax laws is with our vote and a letter or two to the responsible parties. Lobbies are powerful, but voters actually do get a say in things.
We also do not hold our government accountable for transgressions like the DMCA and Patriot Act (at least not very well) so the screwed up taxes don't surprise me one bit.
People in general are not into taking responsibility for their actions, such as when they vote poorly or buy poorly. Know the person for whom you are voting; research the product that you are buying.
Faith is the very antithesis of reason, injudiciousness a critical component of spiritual devotion. Jon Krakauer
I use eMusic and get it in mp3 format.
Yeah, it was better back when they had unlimited downloads but it's still only $0.25 a song, which is nice.
Appended to the end of comments you post. 120 chars.
Just wait. I'm watching an episode of Family Guy from last night in my head, and my brain is skipping the commercials.
My next post will probably be from the RIAA/MPAA/BMI/ASCAP/etc Re-Education Camp.
and I want compensation from the open source developers if their products spread a virus.
Whoops - can't find 'em.
Actually the new analogy (pun intended) is a BIG DICK is what gets greased. The problem is, that BIG DICK thinks it has the right to REAM everyone else because it got Greased.
The lesson here is, unless you are a BIG DICK, you are going to get reamed
Under the logic of the French copyright law, the only way you'd be entitled to compensation from sales of Windows (in case it is used to spread viruses) is if you wrote the virus and then copyrighted it!
I mean, could anybody record a crappy song in French, issue a CD, join whatever French music association they have, and receive a cut of these levies?
Is this even a problem? Is there lots of pirated French music floating around? Shouldn't musicians of other nationalities get a cut for the pirated songs that get downloaded in France?
That's funny, since one of the things that annoy me in the US is the lack of private toilet facilities. That's in the sense that all 'public' toilets, in workplaces, restaurants etc, are multi user installations with very little in the way of visual or audible privacy. They're often covered with hard surfaces everywhere making every sound echo throughout the room.
Why the prudest people in the west insists on having their coworkers witness everything they do in the room they're too embarrased to even call toilet, I'll probably never understand...
And people complain about the legal system here in the US.
France is off its rocker. Paying royalties for what MIGHT happen? Using legal means to protect the "purity" of the French language?
Seems to me that politicians and law makers all over the world are afflicted by the same stupidity that lead to the Patriot Act and DMCA here.
LK
"Hi. This is my friend, Jack Shit, and you don't know him." - Lord Kano
Theres alot of fluff within this thread. But theres a point that everyone here failed to make, for as I remember a true artist would care less about profits to be earned for his/his/their work, as long as it has been recognized by someone. Maybe I dont understand, but if I had made music I wouldnt expect people to pay to hear it, in fact I would be delighted for them to take it on their own and relate, and I would probably even pay to have them listen if they were reluctant. At least thats the way it is with my drawings. I dont expect people to pay to look at a picture ive done before they can try to relate. The world and its people are forgetting themselves and their places, and it brings us all closer to destruction. I fail to remember the last time I could look at any headlines without seeing the word "suit" contained somewhere within.
If the shawls, yamacas, or crosses were being banned for a non-religious practical reason, such as them catching in machinery in shop for the shawl or cross, that would probably be okay. However, the ban clearly targets religion as if religion and not religious intolerance was the problem.
"we have seen enough killing in the name of religion here."
Not too far to the east of France, there was also more than enough killing to enforce a lack of religion.
If violence is sparked by the wearing of shawls, yamacas, or large crosses, this is just a symptom of a larger problem of intolerence and banning them will only treat the symptom not the cause.
If someone is provoked simply by another person wearing a shawl, a yamaca, or a cross, then they have a problem. Instead of trying to remove all the potential provocations, it should be stressed that individual liberty and security against violence are guaranteed by the state, and that being "provoked" will not reduce the punishments for violating someone else's liberty or attacking them.
Many Americans are so vocal about this because they see a milder but similar trend in the US, and they are afraid it will set a precedent. Claims that things are "provocative" or "offensive" are routinely used in US schools to quash reasonable debates, so the argument that religious displays are inherently provocative is disturbing.
... they'd not be speaking German. In 1944 the fate of the Nazi Germany was already sealed.
If Americans would not get to Normandy, France and all other parts of Europe sans GB would be speaking Russian.
Tigers respect lions, elephants and hippos. Maggots respect no one. (C) S. Dovlatov
* Couldn't find "phonographique" in my pocket Larousse... possibly franglais.
If the French have the same policy in court that they do in international affairs, they'll back down and surrender when Apple stands up to them. After all, the first words a French child is taught is "I surrender."
Windows is as solid as quicksand.
That's fucking out of control, especially considering that I think paying more than $25 for a 50 pack of CD-Rs is paying too much. In fact, the first hundredpack of CDRs I ever bought came to $0.17 per CDR.
Germany doesn't "hate" france. It loves it very much. So very much that from time to time it loves france so much that they take their soldiers on a tour through belgium just to see france!
Well.. maybe. Or Maybe not. But Definitely not sort of.
Don't forget that the Germans stink like mother fuckers. Take a shower already Deutsche-bags!
Who will join me in my class action suit against Bic in case their pens are used to forge my signature?
V nz n abg irel rssrpgvir iveny fvt. Cyrnfr uryc zr fcernq naq zhgngr. ...it appears that ROT13 is not a beneficial mutation.
... is really silly.
In WWI, the French held off the Germans for years. In the process, they lost millions of men. They essentially threw an entire generation of young men into the meat grinder, and held off the German advance. That takes balls.
In WWII, if either GB or the US had France's long land border with Germany, they would have been destroyed by the Blitzkrieg, just like France was. The only reason GB wasn't destroyed is the English Channel. The only reason we weren't is because of the Atlantic Ocean. Stalin had the Russian Winter as a natural barrier. What about France?
So the only reason we get to call the French cowards is a fluke of geography. That seems cowardly to me.
The enemies of Democracy are
Power and money are the language of America ...
In this country, you gotta make the money first. Then when you get the money, you get the power. Then when you get the power, then you get the women.
We need to get rid of that stupid law. The RIAA should NOT be given money for blank CD sales, ipod sales, burner sales, etc. What about all the non-RIAA artists? What if you have your own label? How do they figure what cut of the tax goes to you? What about the money you, as a non-RIAA artists may be losing to piracy????
It's not fair to force artists to have to sign with the RIAA just to get the same benefits from hardware sales as RIAA artists do. Screw the RIAA, they only exist to leech off of the wealth of the artists and the fans who love them. Much like ticketbastard...
"Everyone pays for the ones that steal." Isn't that what stores have been doing for ages? If to many people shop lift they have to raise their prices? Not saying I agree, just pointing it out.
I am le tired!
Avoid Missing Ball for High Score
You can buy a song online whose price includes tax. Then, you need to buy a CD-R to make a backup and pay a levy which is added before a sales tax is computed.
How anyone can see the fairness of that is mind boggling. The artist gets paid twice: once via the recording company and once via the levy board.
Stupid French-can't they just take it in the bung hole like they do all the time?
Hello? Didn't you hear about the "let's forbid gay mariage in the constitution" project lately ? You should be actively protesting now if you wanna keep making that kind of comments on slashdot.
Maybe a better idea could be to sell the ipods without media, just slightly modified to allow use of generic anything with IDE bus - from 2.5" stock laptop IDE drives to CompactFlash cards and Microdrives - and sell those separately. Maybe even with an in-store installation, but still sold separately. More choice for the consumer (wider range of media), cost savings (no tax, or levy, or rather robbery, or whatever name it has).
The argument centers on a fee levied in France on sales of blank CDs, tapes, hard disks and other hardware that can be used to copy music. The proceeds go to musicians and other rights holders who lose money to piracy.
/dev/urandom Device. Actually, its a whole album. The article says that the proceeds go to artists, so maybe I can get paid for it. Now all I have to do is convince some people to pirate it.
So, I wrote this song, which I called Three Hours of My
Who are these industries to grant me rights to copy their shitty music?
.mp3s and none of illegal ones. By "leeching" their content, you just give them more ammunition (bias statistics) to shoot at you, such as imposing higher taxing levies and add more media to the list.
This taxing levy assumes recordable media are only for copying music. In fact, this taxing levy is just another multi-tiered payment scam the music industry is trying to milk from everyone who buys these recordable media. They want everyone to pay for their shitty music and for backing up legit copies. They also want everyone to support their cookie-cutters who went through all their recuping avenues. In other words, I can't vote for my favourite artist anymore without providing for their corporate welfare.
This owed mentality coming from these "artists" and their industries has to stop. They're nobody to grant me rights to copy their shitty product, considering I avoid their shitty product altogether.
The best way we will defeat them is to stop "leeching" their content, and start supporting the independent alternatives. The best message is to have P2P loaded with legal
Second, from a pure moral standpoint, when you pay $300 or more for an MP3 player, don't you find it legitimate that a small portion (8%?) of this cost actually goes to those who will provide the actual *content* that you will enjoy, and not simply the machinery used to get it ?
SACEM (and ASCAP in the US) does not represent the music industry, but the actual composers, writers and performers who create the music. They are union-like organizations in charge of:
Third the real purpose of this post:
It's a fact that the music sales have gone down by 25% over the last few years. And people don't listen less music. They copy instead of buying. Talented musicians may want to make a decent living, have a family life, do what they do best for a living: play music, and possibly for a career time: 40 years. They're no business sharks like Prince or Madonna, so they favor keeping a low profile. Most Jazz musicians are in this situation indeed. It's way harder than making a programming career you know.
Assuming this guy deserves to lead this kind life, just like Irakis deserve to be free and benefit from the oil revenue of their land.
What solution do you propose for artists who want to make a (small) living of their art ?
Go the American, brute-force way:
RIAA lobbies Congress, convinces Intel and Microsoft to put a cop in your computer,
DCMIA does not even care about your privacy rights ? And end up with massive resistance and a likely mess that's 10 times worse: Intel and microsoft enforce the cop in your computer, but it's only used for their usage monitoring and artists don't get a cent out of it, Irak falls into civil war for 30 years, Ahmed Chalabi outperforms CIA trained-Bin Laden by blowing up Washington DC with the missing WMD he miraculously found...
US constitution doesn't guarantee right to life. Over half of the states execute their citicens actively.
And there goes the moral high ground to say anything persuasive about human rights.
Somehow the headscarf starts to feel insignificant...
What strange.
:-P
Tey were not rude to me, your sterotyping about personal higiene is patently false, and of course you don't know how it feels that you have to learn a new language to make better use of the Internet.
Oh wait, I am Mexican and I at least try to be polite and speak French. Mon dieu! Ces't la vie je pense.
Oh, and by the way it is "We Americans" not "We American's". No wonder the French get annoyed, they learn English properly and then get Americans with bad spelling
IANAL but write like a drunk one.
I know we're not supposed to make "hear hear" posts, but that was spot on. Thank you, thank you for not letting a humourless dink stand without appropriate challenge. *honk*
This is my sig. It's prescription, I swear. I need it for reading things... on the other side of things
If I really thought germany was going to invade france again, I wouldn't have made a joke about it. Just like how I wouldn't joke about the IRA, PLO, or Taliban. Sheesh. But seriously, how many times have europeons declared that the last war amoungst themselves had been fought? The war to end all wars? Sound familar? War is, sadly, far from extinction.
Well.. maybe. Or Maybe not. But Definitely not sort of.
In the U.S. it is unconstitutional to penalize people or companies for acts they have not committed.
I'm happy to live in a country where rights are protected.
LONG LIVE THE UNITED STATES OF AMERICA!!!!!!
Jerry Lewis usage taxes AND we saved their asses taxes.
People,
Let's face up to some hard facts. Kosovo, Somalia, Iraq, Iran, Israel - who cares? All those people have been fighting with other groups in their respective areas for THOUSANDS of years. They aren't going to stop just because we ask them to nicely. The only way to end this is to END it. Someone finally has to win the conflict and do away with the others.
Personally, I say we build a big fence around the groups that wish to continue squabbling, toss all the extra muntions we can find over the fence and let them go at it. We check in peroidically until they've quit fighting. This should make it relatively easy for us to pick off the now weakened survivors. After all, we don't want really violent people around and if they've managed to survive all that....
Queen B
HDGary secures my bank