hey! You brought a tear to my eye. I'm a Sicilian-Italian American. You described my Grandmother and her nieces and aunts perfectly. The few big family get-togethers that I got to experience are some of my most treasured memories.
I grew up in a predominantly Mexican village, with a sizable Italian community. I thought tamales and lasagna were a match made in heaven, then my mother pulled me aside at a church potluck and informed me that I wasn't a Mexican and I should stop taking food from the wrong side of the room. That's one memory I do not cherish. Some things about the older generations just need to become memories.
It took half a lifetime to discover that WASP food was slowly killing me. Lactose & gluten are no longer on my menu. If not for Asians & Mexicans, I'd starve to death. With a steady diet of rice, fish, Pho, beans & corn, it feels like I've turned the clock back at least a decade in terms of my energy and health.
So please, embrace the food stereotypes. You've inherited a true blessing. The fusion of cultures, and especially their foods, will be our salvation.
You meant safe from you, not safe for you, you coon ass chink;-p
Some Cajun-Asian fusion sounds mighty tasty!
Actually the Chinese eat crayfish for food. Procambarus clarkii, the Louisiana crawfish, is an invasive species in Chinese rice paddies, but many Chinese farmers welcome them as a secondary crop. They call it xiao long xia -- the little dragon shrimp. While it threatens native Chinese fisheries, it has considerable economic value.
It so happens I'm half Chinese, half Cajun. There probably isn't an animal that creeps through the forest of swims in the water that's safe for me.
The references showing how Athens shit all over it's partners for it's own glory are all over the bookshelf next to me, right next to those that lament the loss of the amazing democracy that built the Parthenon. I choose not to take a romantic view of history. Oh irony of ironies, romant, "in the manner of the Romans."
I never said third-century Rome was a democracy. I said, "Lets fast forward a bit to an empire established as a representative democracy - Rome." Factual, and relevant, as democracies generally die in such hideous ways. It was food for thought. And yes, Byzantium played such an important role in history for a thousand years that they left us with the epithets "Byzantine" and "navel gazers", those very same Byzantines who refused help from the west for fear of ceding control back to Rome, and instead signed treaty after treaty with the Ottoman Turks, who increasingly did their best to erase all things Greek from their vast lands. It's nice they left the Hagia Sophia relatively intact. The minarets are a nice touch. I'm sure they (the Turks) had a set of plans drawn up for similar additions to the Basilica of St. Peter in the Vatican, and everywhere else in Europe, while on their way to reclaim Spain. Thank God for Theodin King, er, I mean the great King Jan Sobieski (Tolkein's inspiration), without whom Christopher Columbus might very well have been remembered as a refugee rather than an explorer. So yeah, please, remind us all how Byzantium continued to contribute...
I gave 4 cites on the effects of regulation in the financial crisis. You can cherry pick the partial story given by one of them, if you chose. I will concede that it was not a very well structured rant and left only the most tenuous of threads to connect the dots.
The point was that democracy and regulation, together or separately, aren't going to do much but employ blacksmiths and undertakers.
You've got so many concepts all mixed up that I'm not sure where to begin... you seem to think that somehow democracy is going to prevent a government from abusing a monetary policy.
A democracy has never prevented this - if anything, a democracy has sped decline due to the people (demos) voting power (kratia) into their own pockets - welfare and social programs. The first and best example of this was Athens violating treaties with neighboring cities by stealing money and resources that were intended for the defense of all the Greek world, and instead spending it all on local fortifications and public works project - i.e. - the Parthenon. That pissed off many, especially the Spartans, and after a little skirmish of 30 years, Athens fell, Sparta was weakened, and the Greek world never recovered. The Macedonian punk named Alex wasn't Greek, but that is another matter...
Lets fast forward a bit to an empire established as a representative democracy - Rome. Due to years of over spending and failed social and foreign policy, they went broke and tried to solve their fiscal problems with regulation.. That didn't work out too well for them, resulting in every last vestige of their economy running off to the far corners of their empire to escape regulation . Byzantium didn't get the memo and lingered in relative isolation while contemplating their navels for a thousand years. The best and brightest of the eastern half of the Roman empire fled to Persia when their ruler tried to regulate religion, which led to all sort of abominations like algebra and medicine.
Regulation, while starting off as well meaning, generally ends up pissing off more people than it helps.
So if you really think regulation and some fanboy cryptocurrency of the month is going to save the economy, or the world, then don't be surprised to meet me while I'm looting the wood from the walls of your house to heat mine, when the economy falls flat on it's face and the empire is overrun by barbarian hoards.
Let the banks assess risk as they see fit. If they don't want to lend you money for some purchase, then get your money some other way, plain and simple. You are even welcome to come try and take my money. Go ahead. I'll be waiting.
The best antidote to banks controlling a cashless future is government regulation. Somebody has to be in charge of the money supply or it'll become unstable and wreck the economy. But giving somebody that power inevitably results in a strong concentrations of power. The only effective counter balance to that is Democracy. This is one of the reasons the left has been pushing for mandatory (and anonymous) voting. It really is a civic duty at that point.
Dude, I was there, and your sentiment was shared by many. Saturday afternoon at a flea market in Ocean View, south tip of Big Island, everyone was stoned.
Then again, they live in the shadow of a giant active volcano, so maybe being stoned all the time is warranted...
Words are important. They convey real meaning, and offer a glimpse into the thought process of those who compose them. Here's how I'd edit your words:
An no, mutually assured destruction has not been, is not, and will never be a 'defense'. It's simply a guarantee of more destruction.
We still haven't had an exchange of nuclear weapons, yet . There still have been only two used against any sort of enemy, at the end of WWII. There's been a lot of crises and accidents in which such an exchange very nearly occurred , but it hasn't happened yet. That's not the result of a guarantee of more destruction, but rather a successful defense, for now.
During those few minutes in Hawaii, few people considered MAD a successful defense. They are justifiably upset, but the careless operator or the wrong button that he pushed isn't the real problem. The real problem is more fundamental.
I was there, vacationing in Hawaii. Got the alert, noted the time. Then I finished eating breakfast while listening to the morning riot of birds as the last hints of sunrise's color faded into daylight. I'm old, and my kids were thousands of miles away...
The biggest failure wasn't the bogus "BALLISTIC MISSILE THREAT INBOUND TO HAWAII. SEEK IMMEDIATE SHELTER. THIS IS NOT A DRILL."
If the military can only 'maybe' defend it's own assets against such an attack from an adversary such as North Korea, why are we allowing our elected leaders to spend so much money on a questionable approach to national defense?
Why would any rational entity ever deploy a weapon system without also committing to developing a means to defend against it? An no, mutually assured destruction has not been, is not, and will never be a 'defense'. It's simply a guarantee of more destruction.
I'm not a CPU architect, and perhaps you are, which would explain why you seem to take the differentiation of these bugs and exploits so seriously. Or perhaps you are paid by AMD or an ARM vendor.
JackieBrown, your comment is interesting, and I appreciate you making it.
You are correct, I did not see Hall's comment as equating Ajit Pai with Trump and party politics that favor corporations over individuals, and with your example of reverse racism that you mentioned with Obama. Hall's comment was simply crass race baiting, and served a harsh response.
You have some interesting preconceived notions about 'my side', and your assumption that I was an avid Obama supporter and that I oppose Trump. It seems people are all too willing to draw battle lines between 'sides', with too little willingness to actually consider deeper issues from a standpoint of what is morally and ethically required. I hope this problem doesn't consume the flesh and blood citizens of this country, lest we repeat previous mistakes that seem ever closer
"... stepped into a system that was working perfectly well with some occasional oversight by the FCC.."
Working perfectly well for whom??
Let's cut to the chase, shall we? Corporations and their shills, like Mr. Pai, are not individuals. They should _never_ have a say in law or rule-making. That's the domain of flesh and blood humans with checks and balances to prevent a mob rule.
Ajit Pai is the voice of the 3 wolves in the 'democratic' discourse on what to have for dinner. Fortunately we don't live in a pure democracy.
An individual in Federal agencies that has broad rule-making powers has unilaterally decided the freedom and business landscape for _the_most_revolutionary_method_of_communication_used_by_humans, and you bring race into this?
I've been Unix admin in various environments for 20+ years. My first Linux install was in the early 90's with a pile of 3 1/2" floppy disks that I downloaded from Usenet. I think the first kernel I ever got compiled and working from scratch was 0.87. I've learned, and forgotten, more than I care to remember about Solaris, AIX, HPUX, IRUX & Linux.
I no longer care to admin anything but my own few systems as I've developed other interests and career paths.
I just got done, this very evening, installing Devuan on the laptop I'm using to make this post. The installation process was trivial. I've had Devuan running on other laptops and virtual machines for about a year now. I couldn't be happier, and I'll never go back to a systemd corrupted distro. I just want my stuff to work, and keep working, and not require hours to fix when something does go wrong.
Citing batteries in an electric car as things that destroy the ecosystem seems disingenuous at best. Can you provide references from someone other than the fossil fuel industry and auto manufacturers?
Next are you going to try to sell us on the idea that the nasty toxic chemicals used to make silicon solar cells are ruining the planet, and we need to stick to good 'ol coal fired power plants because they put 'Muricans back to work??
Dude, this is carbon neutral. Draw a control volume, do some chemistry and thermo... the carbon for this hydrocarbon comes from the atmosphere. Upon combustion, it goes back into the atmosphere.
As a bonus. not all hydrocarbon from this process needs to be burned. Sequester it in underground caverns or beneath the sea, like hydrate deposits, and you'll effectively be taking carbon out of the atmosphere.
This is a very interesting development with a lot of promise!
Not everyone is super-brilliant, or even latently super-brilliant. Most people need jobs that they can just show up at, perform a set of tasks, and go home when it's done. I'd argue that lots of corporate jobs paying decent salaries boil down to applying a fixed set of rules to an input stack of work. There are a lot more modern shepherds and manual farmers out there in the world than you think.
Discipline, serendipity, and teamwork have accomplished far more than brilliance. But Oh! To hold up that shining light of the brilliant hero that we should all worship! Bullshit. Western society's cult of the individual is it's own worst enemy. Remember, Achilles was no hero, he was the demon that inspired the Spartan's to grasp each other's shield.
It doesn't take brilliance to love and raise a child to become a productive member of society, but having reasonably intelligent parents who are members of a functional society definitely helps a child in every way. It doesn't take brilliance to play music composed by Beethoven, but it does take years of hard work, discipline, and passion. Is curiosity innate? Can curiosity be taught, or inadvertently destroyed? Were you raised to be curious, or do you simply push buttons and expect food? Same questions for passion.
The problem is, exactly who, or what, determines what defines "productive member of society" ? Do we use a thermodynamic model to calculate "productive"? If so, expect society and it's technology to replace you and everyone you've ever met or known with a more efficient model. In such a world, a universal basic income will simply equate to humans feeding at the trough alongside the barnyard animals. Morlocks and Eloi.
Or, do we find some way to equate "productive member of society" with skill, curiosity, teamwork and passion?
Instead of $12, can I get a decent shirt, made locally, not by children in Asia, for $3? Perhaps you can be employed in servicing the machines.
Please, go throw a brick through the window of a combine, or modern tractor, and insist we all go back to manual reaping and threshing. Or tear down miles of electrified fence, spill the livestock from the feedlots, and insist it's your God given right to be a shepherd.
When you realize the futility in that, then maybe you should learn to code. Or play a musical instrument. Or sing and dance. Or raise and love a child. Or extract a principle of nature from odd and surprising observations. Or recycle the mountains of plastic floating in the south Pacific, or your local landfill. When machines can do all those things then you can smash society without me getting in your way. Except, if a machine could raise and love a child, perhaps a special loving machine can be made just for you and your rage....
Slashdot Mirror
We're not eating RSA encrypted food. Yet.
hey! You brought a tear to my eye. I'm a Sicilian-Italian American. You described my Grandmother and her nieces and aunts perfectly. The few big family get-togethers that I got to experience are some of my most treasured memories.
I grew up in a predominantly Mexican village, with a sizable Italian community. I thought tamales and lasagna were a match made in heaven, then my mother pulled me aside at a church potluck and informed me that I wasn't a Mexican and I should stop taking food from the wrong side of the room. That's one memory I do not cherish. Some things about the older generations just need to become memories.
It took half a lifetime to discover that WASP food was slowly killing me. Lactose & gluten are no longer on my menu. If not for Asians & Mexicans, I'd starve to death. With a steady diet of rice, fish, Pho, beans & corn, it feels like I've turned the clock back at least a decade in terms of my energy and health.
So please, embrace the food stereotypes. You've inherited a true blessing. The fusion of cultures, and especially their foods, will be our salvation.
You meant safe from you, not safe for you, you coon ass chink ;-p
Some Cajun-Asian fusion sounds mighty tasty!
Actually the Chinese eat crayfish for food. Procambarus clarkii, the Louisiana crawfish, is an invasive species in Chinese rice paddies, but many Chinese farmers welcome them as a secondary crop. They call it xiao long xia -- the little dragon shrimp. While it threatens native Chinese fisheries, it has considerable economic value.
It so happens I'm half Chinese, half Cajun. There probably isn't an animal that creeps through the forest of swims in the water that's safe for me.
The references showing how Athens shit all over it's partners for it's own glory are all over the bookshelf next to me, right next to those that lament the loss of the amazing democracy that built the Parthenon. I choose not to take a romantic view of history. Oh irony of ironies, romant, "in the manner of the Romans."
I never said third-century Rome was a democracy. I said, "Lets fast forward a bit to an empire established as a representative democracy - Rome." Factual, and relevant, as democracies generally die in such hideous ways. It was food for thought. And yes, Byzantium played such an important role in history for a thousand years that they left us with the epithets "Byzantine" and "navel gazers", those very same Byzantines who refused help from the west for fear of ceding control back to Rome, and instead signed treaty after treaty with the Ottoman Turks, who increasingly did their best to erase all things Greek from their vast lands. It's nice they left the Hagia Sophia relatively intact. The minarets are a nice touch. I'm sure they (the Turks) had a set of plans drawn up for similar additions to the Basilica of St. Peter in the Vatican, and everywhere else in Europe, while on their way to reclaim Spain. Thank God for Theodin King, er, I mean the great King Jan Sobieski (Tolkein's inspiration), without whom Christopher Columbus might very well have been remembered as a refugee rather than an explorer. So yeah, please, remind us all how Byzantium continued to contribute...
I gave 4 cites on the effects of regulation in the financial crisis. You can cherry pick the partial story given by one of them, if you chose. I will concede that it was not a very well structured rant and left only the most tenuous of threads to connect the dots.
The point was that democracy and regulation, together or separately, aren't going to do much but employ blacksmiths and undertakers.
You've got so many concepts all mixed up that I'm not sure where to begin... you seem to think that somehow democracy is going to prevent a government from abusing a monetary policy.
A democracy has never prevented this - if anything, a democracy has sped decline due to the people (demos) voting power (kratia) into their own pockets - welfare and social programs. The first and best example of this was Athens violating treaties with neighboring cities by stealing money and resources that were intended for the defense of all the Greek world, and instead spending it all on local fortifications and public works project - i.e. - the Parthenon. That pissed off many, especially the Spartans, and after a little skirmish of 30 years, Athens fell, Sparta was weakened, and the Greek world never recovered. The Macedonian punk named Alex wasn't Greek, but that is another matter...
Lets fast forward a bit to an empire established as a representative democracy - Rome. Due to years of over spending and failed social and foreign policy, they went broke and tried to solve their fiscal problems with regulation.. That didn't work out too well for them, resulting in every last vestige of their economy running off to the far corners of their empire to escape regulation . Byzantium didn't get the memo and lingered in relative isolation while contemplating their navels for a thousand years. The best and brightest of the eastern half of the Roman empire fled to Persia when their ruler tried to regulate religion, which led to all sort of abominations like algebra and medicine.
Regulation, while starting off as well meaning, generally ends up pissing off more people than it helps.
Fast forward to a time a little more recent, but probably still distant history to most of you, and you may discover that the savings and loan crisis and quantitative easing were, in part, catalysts for the Great Recession, all of which can be trace back to more regulating regulations in the name of social justice
So if you really think regulation and some fanboy cryptocurrency of the month is going to save the economy, or the world, then don't be surprised to meet me while I'm looting the wood from the walls of your house to heat mine, when the economy falls flat on it's face and the empire is overrun by barbarian hoards.
Let the banks assess risk as they see fit. If they don't want to lend you money for some purchase, then get your money some other way, plain and simple. You are even welcome to come try and take my money. Go ahead. I'll be waiting.
The best antidote to banks controlling a cashless future is government regulation. Somebody has to be in charge of the money supply or it'll become unstable and wreck the economy. But giving somebody that power inevitably results in a strong concentrations of power. The only effective counter balance to that is Democracy. This is one of the reasons the left has been pushing for mandatory (and anonymous) voting. It really is a civic duty at that point.
Dude, I was there, and your sentiment was shared by many. Saturday afternoon at a flea market in Ocean View, south tip of Big Island, everyone was stoned.
Then again, they live in the shadow of a giant active volcano, so maybe being stoned all the time is warranted...
General Turgidson, is that you?
Words are important. They convey real meaning, and offer a glimpse into the thought process of those who compose them. Here's how I'd edit your words:
We still haven't had an exchange of nuclear weapons, yet . There still have been only two used against any sort of enemy, at the end of WWII. There's been a lot of crises and accidents in which such an exchange very nearly occurred , but it hasn't happened yet. That's not the result of a guarantee of more destruction, but rather a successful defense, for now.
During those few minutes in Hawaii, few people considered MAD a successful defense. They are justifiably upset, but the careless operator or the wrong button that he pushed isn't the real problem. The real problem is more fundamental.
I was there, vacationing in Hawaii. Got the alert, noted the time. Then I finished eating breakfast while listening to the morning riot of birds as the last hints of sunrise's color faded into daylight. I'm old, and my kids were thousands of miles away...
The biggest failure wasn't the bogus "BALLISTIC MISSILE THREAT INBOUND TO HAWAII. SEEK IMMEDIATE SHELTER. THIS IS NOT A DRILL."
The biggest failure, in my opinion, is the waste of a whole lot of tax money on stupid shit, and unaccountable politicians, government agencies and defense contractors that have inspired zero public confidence.
If the military can only 'maybe' defend it's own assets against such an attack from an adversary such as North Korea, why are we allowing our elected leaders to spend so much money on a questionable approach to national defense?
Why would any rational entity ever deploy a weapon system without also committing to developing a means to defend against it? An no, mutually assured destruction has not been, is not, and will never be a 'defense'. It's simply a guarantee of more destruction.
Kill it with fire
Can a corporation cast a vote?
mysidia said "Non-Intel platforms are affected by the same form of problems" (emphasis mine). This doesn't seem like a lie: Understanding Meltdown & Spectre: What To Know About New Exploits That Affect Virtually All CPUs
I'm not a CPU architect, and perhaps you are, which would explain why you seem to take the differentiation of these bugs and exploits so seriously. Or perhaps you are paid by AMD or an ARM vendor.
Or maybe it's that your statement: "the world revolves around me" suggests that there might be other issues behind your comments
First google hit says AMD is also affected:
https://www.theinquirer.net/in...
Who will get to market with a fixed CPU, is what I should have said to be unambiguous.
Whoever that company is may reap huge rewards, even if it's Intel.
For every punishing move in the market, there's a reward for new, better, faster, or in this case, more secure.
Who will get to market first with a fix? This will be fun to watch.
JackieBrown, your comment is interesting, and I appreciate you making it.
You are correct, I did not see Hall's comment as equating Ajit Pai with Trump and party politics that favor corporations over individuals, and with your example of reverse racism that you mentioned with Obama. Hall's comment was simply crass race baiting, and served a harsh response.
You have some interesting preconceived notions about 'my side', and your assumption that I was an avid Obama supporter and that I oppose Trump. It seems people are all too willing to draw battle lines between 'sides', with too little willingness to actually consider deeper issues from a standpoint of what is morally and ethically required. I hope this problem doesn't consume the flesh and blood citizens of this country, lest we repeat previous mistakes that seem ever closer
When safeguards exist that prevent dissent, in the form of words, videos, or sarcastic images, from being throttled or censored because corporate profit , then problems like the Ajit Pais of the world can be mixed with tangents like racism.
"... stepped into a system that was working perfectly well with some occasional oversight by the FCC.."
Working perfectly well for whom??
Let's cut to the chase, shall we? Corporations and their shills, like Mr. Pai, are not individuals. They should _never_ have a say in law or rule-making. That's the domain of flesh and blood humans with checks and balances to prevent a mob rule.
Ajit Pai is the voice of the 3 wolves in the 'democratic' discourse on what to have for dinner. Fortunately we don't live in a pure democracy.
Now, Piss Off and go away, or I shall taunt you a second time.
An individual in Federal agencies that has broad rule-making powers has unilaterally decided the freedom and business landscape for _the_most_revolutionary_method_of_communication_used_by_humans, and you bring race into this?
Piss off.
I've been Unix admin in various environments for 20+ years. My first Linux install was in the early 90's with a pile of 3 1/2" floppy disks that I downloaded from Usenet. I think the first kernel I ever got compiled and working from scratch was 0.87. I've learned, and forgotten, more than I care to remember about Solaris, AIX, HPUX, IRUX & Linux.
I no longer care to admin anything but my own few systems as I've developed other interests and career paths.
I just got done, this very evening, installing Devuan on the laptop I'm using to make this post. The installation process was trivial. I've had Devuan running on other laptops and virtual machines for about a year now. I couldn't be happier, and I'll never go back to a systemd corrupted distro. I just want my stuff to work, and keep working, and not require hours to fix when something does go wrong.
systemd: may you rot in hell.
Citing batteries in an electric car as things that destroy the ecosystem seems disingenuous at best. Can you provide references from someone other than the fossil fuel industry and auto manufacturers?
Next are you going to try to sell us on the idea that the nasty toxic chemicals used to make silicon solar cells are ruining the planet, and we need to stick to good 'ol coal fired power plants because they put 'Muricans back to work??
.. thank you.
The dangerously ignorant zealotry in your post can be countered by smallpox
Since you aren't likely to read the article or anything that contradicts with your myopic world view, I'll quote the first two words for you:
"Smallpox was ..."
Dude, this is carbon neutral. Draw a control volume, do some chemistry and thermo... the carbon for this hydrocarbon comes from the atmosphere. Upon combustion, it goes back into the atmosphere.
As a bonus. not all hydrocarbon from this process needs to be burned. Sequester it in underground caverns or beneath the sea, like hydrate deposits, and you'll effectively be taking carbon out of the atmosphere.
This is a very interesting development with a lot of promise!
Not everyone is super-brilliant, or even latently super-brilliant. Most people need jobs that they can just show up at, perform a set of tasks, and go home when it's done. I'd argue that lots of corporate jobs paying decent salaries boil down to applying a fixed set of rules to an input stack of work. There are a lot more modern shepherds and manual farmers out there in the world than you think.
Discipline, serendipity, and teamwork have accomplished far more than brilliance. But Oh! To hold up that shining light of the brilliant hero that we should all worship! Bullshit. Western society's cult of the individual is it's own worst enemy. Remember, Achilles was no hero, he was the demon that inspired the Spartan's to grasp each other's shield.
It doesn't take brilliance to love and raise a child to become a productive member of society, but having reasonably intelligent parents who are members of a functional society definitely helps a child in every way. It doesn't take brilliance to play music composed by Beethoven, but it does take years of hard work, discipline, and passion. Is curiosity innate? Can curiosity be taught, or inadvertently destroyed? Were you raised to be curious, or do you simply push buttons and expect food? Same questions for passion.
The problem is, exactly who, or what, determines what defines "productive member of society" ? Do we use a thermodynamic model to calculate "productive"? If so, expect society and it's technology to replace you and everyone you've ever met or known with a more efficient model. In such a world, a universal basic income will simply equate to humans feeding at the trough alongside the barnyard animals. Morlocks and Eloi.
Or, do we find some way to equate "productive member of society" with skill, curiosity, teamwork and passion?
No. OMG, just No.
Instead of $12, can I get a decent shirt, made locally, not by children in Asia, for $3? Perhaps you can be employed in servicing the machines.
Please, go throw a brick through the window of a combine, or modern tractor, and insist we all go back to manual reaping and threshing. Or tear down miles of electrified fence, spill the livestock from the feedlots, and insist it's your God given right to be a shepherd.
When you realize the futility in that, then maybe you should learn to code. Or play a musical instrument. Or sing and dance. Or raise and love a child. Or extract a principle of nature from odd and surprising observations. Or recycle the mountains of plastic floating in the south Pacific, or your local landfill. When machines can do all those things then you can smash society without me getting in your way. Except, if a machine could raise and love a child, perhaps a special loving machine can be made just for you and your rage....
Monsanto's glyphosate, along with insecticides, are typically staples of no-till farming.
Yes, it is cheaper to produce grain with no-till chemical techniques, but what kind of long term damage to society will result?