Funny thing, the page you link to shows that many of them were members of Christian churches:
"Founding Fathers who were especially noted for being influenced by such philosophy include Thomas Jefferson, Benjamin Franklin, Cornelius Harnett, Gouverneur Morris, and Hugh Williamson. Although these men were members of traditional Christian denominations (Hugh Williamson was a Presbyterian and the rest were Episcopalians), their political speeches show distinct Deistic influence."
People are already selling their votes to politicians. Every time you see a social program espoused by a party they are bribing the voting population. Minimum wage increases are such a tool. So are welfare benefits, nationalized health care, prescription drug plans, medicare, retirement funds subsidized by the government, etc.
The federal government is like a lactating whore. Those that vote a party into office based on what that party will give them have taken her diseased milk in payment for their vote. The problem becomes twofold now. One, they become dependent on the teat, forever searching for another handout. Two, they become locked in infancy, unable to grow beyond their own moronic and selfish shortsightedness. This does not make good citizens. Their volition and livelyhood depend on the whim of the government.
This arangement, however, is perfect for a government who wants to look benevolent while raping the populace. Those who have partaken of the handouts will fight tooth and nail for the party that gives them their fix. Also, the opposition knows that this is the only stimulus that those afflicted voters will respond to. Catch 22 ensues.
What is even worse, they are buying those votes with OUR money.
Actually, the rationale you gave is the "official cover story."
If you remember, Lt. Col. Dubois in one of the "History and Moral Philosophy" classes asks the students why they use this system. If I recall correctly, one of the students actually quotes something like your reasoning (I don't have my copy here at work). Lt. Col. Dubois rejects this and responds simply: "Because it works."
The other reasoning may or may not be true, but under the premise of the author, those that espouse and enforce the system understand that it is used for its results, not its philisophical or logical underpinnings.
Don't be obtuse. Applying your same level of logic we would have to assume women, when sent to prison, suddenly grow penises with which to pound eachother in the ass. I would like to believe you didn't actually intend to propose such an idea.
"along with the lines of division it creates amongst the citizens of the US"
I have come to the personal conclusion that this is the only purpose of the two party system.
I have mentioned this before but will again: the two parties squabble and fight until they encounter legislation that infringes or removes rights of the people. When that happens they vote almost as a single block for it. Check the DMCA, or the PATRIOT act voting records. Other examples abound. It's just sick.
People who devote themselves to one party are part of the problem as well. They constantly neglect to hold their favored party members accountable while applying unfair accountability standards to anyone with the wrong letter (D or R) after their name. Furthermore, they view anything espoused by the opposite party with scepticism and cynicism. Intelligence becomes cunning, philanthropy and kindness become self aggrandizement and veiled self interest, concession becomes defeat. With that mindset you can see how easy it is to become bitter and aggressive, but can you also see how easy it is to manipulate someone with that mindset?
Watch for polarization next with racial issues. It goes on at a low level every day, but with Obama in the running for the nomination you will see more and more if it.
Dont take Max at his word. He speaks for himself, but I have never met an Aussie as arrogant and stupid as he portrays himself to be here. Most of them are down to Earth and not so full of themselves that they respond with violence when people express their opinions. Most I know will converse with you about just about any subject with vigor and intelligence.
Then again I havent ever met one on their home turf when they are full of drinks.
Makes me wonder why he is trying to make Austrailians look bad.
"commending Rush Limbaugh for calling dissenting military personal "phony soldiers,"
"Dissenting" is not the proper word for people who lie. For those of you who missed it, or for those of you who are just trying to obfuscate the issue purposely, the quote in question has to do with soldiers who climed to have been present in certain places at certain times and were then proven to be liars.
Much like those who said they "listened to Limbaugh's comments" and subsequently denounced him. Anyone who listened to him should have understood exactly what he was referring to.
Look, I can understand people disliking Limbaugh. What I can't understand is when people will start a pogrom based on lies, deciet, misquotation, and malice. What I also can't abide is peple who proliferate this nonsense in the guise of non-partisanism. Grow the fuck up and engage people based on the facts, not your version of the facts or you embellished fantasy. If you can't do that why even open your mouth in the first place?
I thought it would have significant use as an instrument of national blackmail. Just invade your enemy's country and install one hardened bunker in each major city with one of these inside. Set it up for remote detonation and let everyone know that it will go off if you tamper with it or if your demands are not met.
Then withdraw your forces and run the country by remote control.
This reminds me of the old question "is the glass half full or half empty?" If you want to realate this to the real world put a pitcher of water on the table beside it.
Who do you think will be more likely to fill the glass, the guy who thinks it's half full or the guy who thinks it's half empty?
Your post made me realize something bitingly ironic. If the guy is telling the truth then the reason he lied to the FBI was because of torture, but not torture performed by the FBI. It was the threat of torture of his family performed by the Egyptian police. If the merest mention of the tactics of the Egyptian police can scare this dude into lying to the FBI I can scarcely imagine the horrible brutality of what they really do.
This should make people realize the difference between what we call torture and what the rest of the world calls torture. Since it apparently does not, it makes me oddly hopeful for our much maligned military and government police.
To be fair to history, the "cruise missile off course" problem is a nice trade off for "razing an entire city, raping, enslaving, or killing the entire polulation, stealing all the valuables, and toying with the captives by seeing who can skin one completely without letting a single drop of blood fall."
Warfare, as recently as the second world war, was not limited by counting civilian casualties. And yet many of our refined and erudite citizens now take it as the norm, lamenting even one collateral kill. It is truly amazing the indoctrinal effects of "civilization;" sufficient even to erase the survival capabilities of hundreds of thousands of years of evolution in a few generations. Hopefully we never meet an enemy who has not learned to sublimate their instincts in the pursuit of some dubious higher morality.
As for automated weapons kiling indiscriminately, I think they are just suffering from an acute self-actualization crisis.
I am wondering what kind of heat output humans make with their inefficient engines. Including cars and generators, friction, and therefore heat, seem to be the major output of our attempts to make energy from engines. Has anyone calculated the amount of heat generated through our moving to and fro, etc?
From your descrption I have much more experience with both MDMA and other controlled substances. Not that that is a good thing, mind you.
Oddly, I can turn down meth in a heartbeat. I did coke and crack and it didn't have any hold on me unless I had already done some and it was in front of me. I injected pharmeceutical grade opiates and those were unbelievable, yet when the vials were empty it was over, no looking back.
MDMA is the only substance that continues to haunt me. It has been over a decade since I used it. I don't think I could resist it if it were available and actually of the same potencey that was made in the late 80's/early 90's.
Sometimes when people mention the substance in converstaions my body will start to react and my mind will shift a bit, almost like a mild dose of the drug was injected into my systyem. Because of this I actively avoid situations and people where I could come into contact with the substance. Lost some of my oldest friends like that, but I hope they understand.
Some people get caught on different things I guess. Maybe its differences in brain chemistry or metabloic breakdon rates or pathways. Whatever the reason I just wish there was a way to make yourself forget some of the good parts. I worry that I might get in the wrong place or with the wrong people and regress.
As for christianity, humans are considered either 2-pary (body, soul) or 3-part (body, soul, and spirit) beings. Cognition happens in the mind, not the other two parts of the human.
In addition, in the case of orthodox Christianity, "religious experiences" are to be eschewed. Drugs, lack of sleep, lack of food, music, dancing, and combinations of those things have been used to produce religious experiences. The text of the Bible and logic both dictate that an ecstatic experience brought on by those means are not part of the "spiritual life" of Christians. In other words, Christians who understand their Bible will view with scepticism any expereince where people "feel the presence of God."
This, of course, does not stop emotional people from claiming they have seen, spoken to, touched, or felt the presence of God. It just means that even a "spiritual" text like the Bibile acknowledges that people have these feelings sometimes and says that they are probably not authentic representations of the actual presence of God.
I prefer to view the existence of God question as a science experiment that runs for the life of the individual and terminates after death. Surely the answer lies beyond that last frontier, though it is impossible to transmit the information back to the living.
Rest assured, one day we will all either know the truth or oblivion. Either is fitting for the conclusion of the experiment.
"Most designer or party drugs (speed, MDMA), and so called 'smart drugs' (see 'smart shops' or 'head shops'), are non-addictive."
If you ask your corner drug dealer for "speed" you will most likely get methamphetamine, which is extremely addictive.
As for MDMA not being addictive I don't think that is a fair statement. Sure there may not be any physical symptoms of addiction and dependence, however there will be psychological tendencies to addiction. The euphoric sensations of orally administered MDMA rival refined opiates, though they are different. You can't tell me that is not addicting.
Ever since a particularly strong acid trip where I had the overwhelming impression that "I" was operating my physical body through a set of metaphysical levers and buttons I have been enamored with the idea that the brain is the human interface device between the physical world and the immaterial "consciousnes."
Of course having ingested many hundreds of micrograms of LSD at the time couldn't have impaired my judgement, could it?
Generally mystery arises because we misunderstand the basic facts of the situation.
Your points 1-3 are compelling. However the existence of a mystery in point 4 leads me to believe that 1-3 are either a) incomplete, b) incorrect, or c) both incorrect and incomplete.
Slashdot Mirror
Funny thing, the page you link to shows that many of them were members of Christian churches:
"Founding Fathers who were especially noted for being influenced by such philosophy include Thomas Jefferson, Benjamin Franklin, Cornelius Harnett, Gouverneur Morris, and Hugh Williamson. Although these men were members of traditional Christian denominations (Hugh Williamson was a Presbyterian and the rest were Episcopalians), their political speeches show distinct Deistic influence."
People are already selling their votes to politicians. Every time you see a social program espoused by a party they are bribing the voting population. Minimum wage increases are such a tool. So are welfare benefits, nationalized health care, prescription drug plans, medicare, retirement funds subsidized by the government, etc.
The federal government is like a lactating whore. Those that vote a party into office based on what that party will give them have taken her diseased milk in payment for their vote. The problem becomes twofold now. One, they become dependent on the teat, forever searching for another handout. Two, they become locked in infancy, unable to grow beyond their own moronic and selfish shortsightedness. This does not make good citizens. Their volition and livelyhood depend on the whim of the government.
This arangement, however, is perfect for a government who wants to look benevolent while raping the populace. Those who have partaken of the handouts will fight tooth and nail for the party that gives them their fix. Also, the opposition knows that this is the only stimulus that those afflicted voters will respond to. Catch 22 ensues.
What is even worse, they are buying those votes with OUR money.
Actually, the rationale you gave is the "official cover story."
If you remember, Lt. Col. Dubois in one of the "History and Moral Philosophy" classes asks the students why they use this system. If I recall correctly, one of the students actually quotes something like your reasoning (I don't have my copy here at work). Lt. Col. Dubois rejects this and responds simply: "Because it works."
The other reasoning may or may not be true, but under the premise of the author, those that espouse and enforce the system understand that it is used for its results, not its philisophical or logical underpinnings.
Don't be obtuse. Applying your same level of logic we would have to assume women, when sent to prison, suddenly grow penises with which to pound eachother in the ass. I would like to believe you didn't actually intend to propose such an idea.
"along with the lines of division it creates amongst the citizens of the US"
I have come to the personal conclusion that this is the only purpose of the two party system.
I have mentioned this before but will again: the two parties squabble and fight until they encounter legislation that infringes or removes rights of the people. When that happens they vote almost as a single block for it. Check the DMCA, or the PATRIOT act voting records. Other examples abound. It's just sick.
People who devote themselves to one party are part of the problem as well. They constantly neglect to hold their favored party members accountable while applying unfair accountability standards to anyone with the wrong letter (D or R) after their name. Furthermore, they view anything espoused by the opposite party with scepticism and cynicism. Intelligence becomes cunning, philanthropy and kindness become self aggrandizement and veiled self interest, concession becomes defeat. With that mindset you can see how easy it is to become bitter and aggressive, but can you also see how easy it is to manipulate someone with that mindset?
Watch for polarization next with racial issues. It goes on at a low level every day, but with Obama in the running for the nomination you will see more and more if it.
Dont take Max at his word. He speaks for himself, but I have never met an Aussie as arrogant and stupid as he portrays himself to be here. Most of them are down to Earth and not so full of themselves that they respond with violence when people express their opinions. Most I know will converse with you about just about any subject with vigor and intelligence.
Then again I havent ever met one on their home turf when they are full of drinks.
Makes me wonder why he is trying to make Austrailians look bad.
So what you are saying is the Republicans "duck season, rabbit season'ed" the Democrats?
What is the quote I am thinking of right now? Something about "you get the govenment you deserve..."
"commending Rush Limbaugh for calling dissenting military personal "phony soldiers,"
"Dissenting" is not the proper word for people who lie. For those of you who missed it, or for those of you who are just trying to obfuscate the issue purposely, the quote in question has to do with soldiers who climed to have been present in certain places at certain times and were then proven to be liars.
Much like those who said they "listened to Limbaugh's comments" and subsequently denounced him. Anyone who listened to him should have understood exactly what he was referring to.
Look, I can understand people disliking Limbaugh. What I can't understand is when people will start a pogrom based on lies, deciet, misquotation, and malice. What I also can't abide is peple who proliferate this nonsense in the guise of non-partisanism. Grow the fuck up and engage people based on the facts, not your version of the facts or you embellished fantasy. If you can't do that why even open your mouth in the first place?
I would rather be vaporised than covered in napalm or thermite. I would also opt for vaporization over beheading or being skinned alive.
At different times in history, all of the methods of destruction I mention abouve have been applied indiscriminately to kill "innocent people."
Lets face it, nukes really are the kinder and gentler weapon of war.
I thought it would have significant use as an instrument of national blackmail. Just invade your enemy's country and install one hardened bunker in each major city with one of these inside. Set it up for remote detonation and let everyone know that it will go off if you tamper with it or if your demands are not met.
Then withdraw your forces and run the country by remote control.
This reminds me of the old question "is the glass half full or half empty?" If you want to realate this to the real world put a pitcher of water on the table beside it.
Who do you think will be more likely to fill the glass, the guy who thinks it's half full or the guy who thinks it's half empty?
Your post made me realize something bitingly ironic. If the guy is telling the truth then the reason he lied to the FBI was because of torture, but not torture performed by the FBI. It was the threat of torture of his family performed by the Egyptian police. If the merest mention of the tactics of the Egyptian police can scare this dude into lying to the FBI I can scarcely imagine the horrible brutality of what they really do.
This should make people realize the difference between what we call torture and what the rest of the world calls torture. Since it apparently does not, it makes me oddly hopeful for our much maligned military and government police.
God, I hope someone else replies to your post. The two who have so far got schooled so hard I doubt they will ever post near you again.
Bravo.
To be fair to history, the "cruise missile off course" problem is a nice trade off for "razing an entire city, raping, enslaving, or killing the entire polulation, stealing all the valuables, and toying with the captives by seeing who can skin one completely without letting a single drop of blood fall."
Warfare, as recently as the second world war, was not limited by counting civilian casualties. And yet many of our refined and erudite citizens now take it as the norm, lamenting even one collateral kill. It is truly amazing the indoctrinal effects of "civilization;" sufficient even to erase the survival capabilities of hundreds of thousands of years of evolution in a few generations. Hopefully we never meet an enemy who has not learned to sublimate their instincts in the pursuit of some dubious higher morality.
As for automated weapons kiling indiscriminately, I think they are just suffering from an acute self-actualization crisis.
I am wondering what kind of heat output humans make with their inefficient engines. Including cars and generators, friction, and therefore heat, seem to be the major output of our attempts to make energy from engines. Has anyone calculated the amount of heat generated through our moving to and fro, etc?
Maybe its insignificant, but maybe its not.
I was wondering if some masochists produce this stuff internally.
Dude you didn't mention the best part. The sevants that most middle class people have.
So instead of microwaves, dry cleaners, and roombas to make living easier, India's middle and upper class use human servants.
IIRC this is why many professionals that come to the US from India return home.
From your descrption I have much more experience with both MDMA and other controlled substances. Not that that is a good thing, mind you.
Oddly, I can turn down meth in a heartbeat. I did coke and crack and it didn't have any hold on me unless I had already done some and it was in front of me. I injected pharmeceutical grade opiates and those were unbelievable, yet when the vials were empty it was over, no looking back.
MDMA is the only substance that continues to haunt me. It has been over a decade since I used it. I don't think I could resist it if it were available and actually of the same potencey that was made in the late 80's/early 90's.
Sometimes when people mention the substance in converstaions my body will start to react and my mind will shift a bit, almost like a mild dose of the drug was injected into my systyem. Because of this I actively avoid situations and people where I could come into contact with the substance. Lost some of my oldest friends like that, but I hope they understand.
Some people get caught on different things I guess. Maybe its differences in brain chemistry or metabloic breakdon rates or pathways. Whatever the reason I just wish there was a way to make yourself forget some of the good parts. I worry that I might get in the wrong place or with the wrong people and regress.
Kent...
STOP TOUCHING YOURSELF!
(Obligatory Real Genius quote)
As for christianity, humans are considered either 2-pary (body, soul) or 3-part (body, soul, and spirit) beings. Cognition happens in the mind, not the other two parts of the human.
In addition, in the case of orthodox Christianity, "religious experiences" are to be eschewed. Drugs, lack of sleep, lack of food, music, dancing, and combinations of those things have been used to produce religious experiences. The text of the Bible and logic both dictate that an ecstatic experience brought on by those means are not part of the "spiritual life" of Christians. In other words, Christians who understand their Bible will view with scepticism any expereince where people "feel the presence of God."
This, of course, does not stop emotional people from claiming they have seen, spoken to, touched, or felt the presence of God. It just means that even a "spiritual" text like the Bibile acknowledges that people have these feelings sometimes and says that they are probably not authentic representations of the actual presence of God.
I prefer to view the existence of God question as a science experiment that runs for the life of the individual and terminates after death. Surely the answer lies beyond that last frontier, though it is impossible to transmit the information back to the living.
Rest assured, one day we will all either know the truth or oblivion. Either is fitting for the conclusion of the experiment.
"Most designer or party drugs (speed, MDMA), and so called 'smart drugs' (see 'smart shops' or 'head shops'), are non-addictive."
If you ask your corner drug dealer for "speed" you will most likely get methamphetamine, which is extremely addictive.
As for MDMA not being addictive I don't think that is a fair statement. Sure there may not be any physical symptoms of addiction and dependence, however there will be psychological tendencies to addiction. The euphoric sensations of orally administered MDMA rival refined opiates, though they are different. You can't tell me that is not addicting.
"Definition of Irony - Firing Senator Craig for being gay after he voted to not protect gays from job discrimination."
I would call that one "poetic justice." http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Poetic_justice
Ever since a particularly strong acid trip where I had the overwhelming impression that "I" was operating my physical body through a set of metaphysical levers and buttons I have been enamored with the idea that the brain is the human interface device between the physical world and the immaterial "consciousnes."
Of course having ingested many hundreds of micrograms of LSD at the time couldn't have impaired my judgement, could it?
Generally mystery arises because we misunderstand the basic facts of the situation.
Your points 1-3 are compelling. However the existence of a mystery in point 4 leads me to believe that 1-3 are either a) incomplete, b) incorrect, or c) both incorrect and incomplete.